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Mostly all of Batman's other enemies are phisically stronger and/or are even mentally stronger and smarter than either Batman or the Joker are.

Why is that?

I mean i love the Joker, i just don't get it. I mean, wouldn't your worst enemy be the strongest and smartest, basically the most powerful/the biggest threat, and i dunno if Joker is the most powerful.

i dunno, he just is...

Originally posted by Silverstein
i dunno, he just is...

He just is?

nah, i dont buy that...

Joker is sick but Batman's other enemies can be sicker.

i cant think of any villains as sick as Joker...

Well let's see now

-He's the enemy Batman has faced the most and causes the most trouble
-He killed Robin
-He crippled Barbara Gordon
-He killed Sarah Essen

Need I go on???

Originally posted by Doc Ock
Well let's see now

-He's the enemy Batman has faced the most and causes the most trouble
-He killed Robin
-He crippled Barbara Gordon
-He killed Sarah Essen

Need I go on???

i forget...He killed freakin Robin, batmans little side kick, the boy wonder. That is harsh. Not to mention he turned the that drake Robin into his adopted son. (batman beyond movie). Plus:

-armed robberies
-murders
-tastes for the theatrics

The cartoons are not part of Batman continuity.

Originally posted by Doc Ock
The cartoons are not part of Batman continuity.

what do you mean??

Originally posted by Silverstein
what do you mean??

The plot lines in the cartoons are not part of Batman comic continuity.

Meaning Joker never did anything to Tim Drake.It was made up for the cartoon.

Originally posted by Doc Ock
The plot lines in the cartoons are not part of Batman comic continuity.

Meaning Joker never did anything to Tim Drake.It was made up for the cartoon.

ooh ok.

He may not be the strongest or the most physically gifted, but I reckon he has the mind of a true genius-slash-criminal-mastermind.

He's also somewhat reallistic... looks like crap, kills people with a personna

other reallistic villains
scarecrow - chemist weaponizing gas toxins
scarface - insane guy with a puppet

thats all i can really think about

Originally posted by TMACalicious
He may not be the strongest or the most physically gifted, but I reckon he has the mind of a true genius-slash-criminal-mastermind.

but thats the thing.

Batman has smarter villains that are more genius than the joker could ever be. Villains set on global domination.

Joker mostly seems to only threaten Gotham at most.
But at best just mostly parts of Gotham.

I believe it was always personal on some level or another. Like, the Joker wouldn't just attack Gotham for the fun of it, he'd do it to draw Batman out. Like a tease or something. I'm pretty sure that if someone screwed with innocent people just to get you pissed off that he'd be at the top of your list.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
I believe it was always personal on some level or another. Like, the Joker wouldn't just attack Gotham for the fun of it, he'd do it to draw Batman out. Like a tease or something. I'm pretty sure that if someone screwed with innocent people just to get you pissed off that he'd be at the top of your list.

exactly!!

i dunno if this would count but in Batman Beyond:return of joker, the new Bats talks to the Joker...saying stuff like how the old batman never talks or comments about Joker at all: to get him pissed off, Joker just wants to get batman's attension.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
I believe it was always personal on some level or another. Like, the Joker wouldn't just attack Gotham for the fun of it, he'd do it to draw Batman out. Like a tease or something. I'm pretty sure that if someone screwed with innocent people just to get you pissed off that he'd be at the top of your list.

I dunno about that. I always thought the Joker always tried to avoid drawing out Batman in order to complete his heists and crime sprees. Isn't he always pissed when Batman shows up, but then he gets happy after quickly thinking up of a plan to get rid of him..?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I dunno about that. I always thought the Joker always tried to avoid drawing out Batman in order to complete his heists and crime sprees. Isn't he always pissed when Batman shows up, but then he gets happy after quickly thinking up of a plan to get rid of him..?

Well the way I saw it was that the Joker would come up with one plot or another but also tie it into some sort of trap for Batman so that when he did arrive he was set up. You know, Batman shows up and Joker gets pissed and runs away only to actually be leading Batman into a trap and then he gets happy 'cause his plan worked. Well, except that Batman always got away.

Originally posted by Silverstein
exactly!!

i dunno if this would count but in Batman Beyond:return of joker, the new Bats talks to the Joker...saying stuff like how the old batman never talks or comments about Joker at all: to get him pissed off, Joker just wants to get batman's attension.

Yes it counts. Btas should never be ignored! grr.. hehe.

Lex Luthor isn't the most physically strong enemy of Superman's, but he's the arch-rival too. The Joker is the main enemy not only because of popularity, but because of what he stands for. Batman is insanity for the right reasons, Joker is insanity for the wrong reasons. There's a connection between the two that always thrives on the other. If Batman were to kill Joker the first time he saw him, he wouldn't be the Batman we know today.

Another reason Jack is the arch is because of his intelligence. I'd argue that booksmart-wise, the most intelligent villain is The Riddler, however, The Joker is the type of intelligence that Batman is - common sense and psychoanalysis. The Joker knows exactly what buttons to press, and he's booksmart enough to devise evil plans that would without a doubt work (and sometimes do), make up Joker toxins and whatnot...etc etc.

And Joker's the man lol

Joker's is Batman's exact opposite - colourful, extravagant, chaotic, unrepressed. His relationship with Bat's is so twisted that often he tries not to kill him - it would mean the end of the game he loves to play with him.
Things got more disturbing by the 1980's though, after Dark Knight. We come to appreciate Joker entertains himself by causing deaths in the hundreds, even thousands, and would gleefully continue whenever possible. Then, he crossed a line with Batman that can't go back - murdering Jason Todd. This has built up such guilt and rage in Batman, I wonder why he doesn't pop sometimes. Because not killing the Joker has just meant more and more death, which could have been prevented. Someday, DC will have to find a way to resolve this; kill the Joker? FOR REAL?

Originally posted by roughrider
Joker's is Batman's exact opposite - colourful, extravagant, chaotic, unrepressed. His relationship with Bat's is so twisted that often he tries not to kill him - it would mean the end of the game he loves to play with him.
Things got more disturbing by the 1980's though, after Dark Knight. We come to appreciate Joker entertains himself by causing deaths in the hundreds, even thousands, and would gleefully continue whenever possible. Then, he crossed a line with Batman that can't go back - murdering Jason Todd. This has built up such guilt and rage in Batman, I wonder why he doesn't pop sometimes. Because not killing the Joker has just meant more and more death, which could have been prevented. Someday, DC will have to find a way to resolve this; kill the Joker? FOR REAL?

exactly.

There is so much chemistry between their two charcters, and they are so animated in a way that they are so fun watch. You just can't help but be intrested in them.

What Gordon said in Begins "taste for the theatrics".

You got one guy who is a good guy but displays himself as creature of the night. Then you got one guy who is insane and is displayed with bright purple, white, and green with a big smile. They draw attention to each other, and with their history together is makes them so interesting to watch.

"There's nothing funny about a clown at midnight."--Lon Chaney

The Joker reminds me a lot of Andy Kaufman. He just loves to create mayhem for the hell of it. I think he sees Gotham as nothing more than a stage on which he performs. The Joker has got to be one of my few favourite fictional characters of all time.

Originally posted by DarkAge
"There's nothing funny about a clown at midnight."--Lon Chaney

The Joker reminds me a lot of Andy Kaufman. He just loves to create mayhem for the hell of it. I think he sees Gotham as nothing more than a stage on which he performs.

I don't think the Joker creates mayhem for the hell of it. There is method to his madness. And how would he be the so called criminal-mastermind he's described as if he does what he does for no reason.

From what I see, i think the Joker is actually calculating cunning, he's obviously plans before doing what he does cause it's almost always near brilliant..

What im trying to say is that the Joker creating chaos for no reason would seem too reckless and unjoker-like even for a man like the Joker, lol I think if you told him that, he'd be insulted. (if he existed) cause like you said, it's all theatrical for him most of the time. And t0 commit criminalities and doing it in style like he does takes thought and guts, especially with Batman around. Someone who would create mayhem for the hell of it would be like a Carnage from Marvel.

Hm, i wonder who's more of a psycho path Carnage's Kassidy *the mental patient* or the Joker.

I think the more insane one is The Joker, but not saying C.K. isn't insane, he's a different type of insane though. There are 3 types of insane people:

1. Mentally Incapable
2. Psychotic Murderer
3. Obsessive and/or Intelligent

People thought that Copernicus was insane because of his theories. I see Carnage as more of #2 and Joker as more of #3. Now we all know Jack is a psychotic murderer, but he approaches it with more intelligence and more of an obsession with humor than your typical nutbag, and that is why he succeeds. How many times have you seen an insane character in a story that does extremely extravagant ways to kill, but never solidifies anything - and then you see Joker who does these extreme ways, but then just as easily, he goes to Barbara's house and flat out shoots her in the spine, you know? As someone said, there's "a method to his madness", he's like Hannibal Lecter. If Joker ever was able to turn sides and help the good guys, god forbid for the villains. I believe I heard at one point that in one comic, there was an alternate dimension or something where they all lost their superpowers, and Joker was a sane guy, and they actually said at one point that his insanity is almost a superpower. Idk if I would buy into that but it was a cool theory that I gotta look into more, if anyone has any info to share.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Mostly all of Batman's other enemies are phisically stronger and/or are even mentally stronger and smarter than either Batman or the Joker are.

Why is that?

I mean i love the Joker, i just don't get it. I mean, wouldn't your worst enemy be the strongest and smartest, basically the most powerful/the biggest threat, and i dunno if Joker is the most powerful.

thats not true, just because the joker is crazy doesn't mean he isnt smart, out of all the villians, the joker is the one who has given batman the most grief, and he is the biggest threat without a doubt, the guy is so unpredicatable, and will do anything, and i mean anything to amuse himself...kill, rape, kidnapp, whatever, batman can predict what other enemies of his are gonna do, he can;t predict the joker at all

Here are just a few Batman enemies that are way smarter than the Joker:

Lady Shiva: A mercenary assassin who once trained Batman. She is possibly the greatest martial artist alive in the DC universe.

Mad Hatter: A research scientist named Jervis Tetch who is completely smitten with the works of Lewis Carroll. He specializes in neuroscience and developed hardware that can control the brain and induce hypnotic states.

Man-Bat: A scientist, Kirk Langstrom is cursed to periodically turn into an animalistic humanoid bat, and often causes much trouble for Batman despite also being an ally.

Mr. Freeze: Formerly a scientist and expert on cryonics

Ra's Al Ghul: ("Demon's Head" in Arabic), a centuries-old eco-terrorist who knows Batman's secret identity

The Riddler: Eddie Nigma, a criminal mastermind who has a strange compulsion to challenge his opponents by presenting clues to his crimes in the form of riddles and puzzles.

And Lex Luthor, Multibillionaire super genius President of the United States

And those are just a few of them..

Everyone else is nothing compared to the Joker.

The Joker has the mind of the Riddler combined with the psychosis of Mr. Zsasz... deadly combination. The only villain who could be that great a threat is Bane, but Bane is a newbie. Two-Face is half pure good (I feel I should of put a hyphen there somewhere...) and the Penguin's reasonable, and holds his position as crime lord by not making himself an immediate threat. Ivy worked alongside Bats in NML and Scarecrow is... Well I can't think of anything specific but now I'm just working into people who just aren't arch-villain material

Oh, right... and Ras Al Ghul isn't strictly Gotham based.

My first thought is that it's rather obvious: Joker is the original Batman villain. He is considered the greatest villain because they have the most history. On account of that history, their every confrontation has become personal, which makes them all the more compelling.
Beyond that, however, The Joker is the very antithesis of everything Batman stands for. Where Batman represents order, The Joker is chaos, where Batman lives in darkness, he's a flash of colour, where Batman has sacrificed happiness, The Joker lives to have fun. This last bit is telling- At the end of the day, that's why The Joker does what he does: it's fun, he gets his kicks out of it: the whole world is a stage for him and he's playing his part or, more accurately, it's all a joke and someone has to add the punchline. This rationalisation (or rather irrationalisation: I'd never credit the Joker with anything too close to rational thought) is another part of what makes the Joker so dangerous: he has no real rhyme or reason for what he does. He's unpredictable in a way that confounds Batman's analytical mind. After all these years, as Batman notes in The Killing Joke , he doesn't know the Joker, he doesn't understand him and (now quoting Carmine Falcone in Batman Begins ) you always fear what you don't understand.

Take Batman, turn his obsession with justice into an obsession with crime....and who do you have?

Joker.

Batman sees himself in Joker, and that's why he's his greatest enemy. Because in the end, Batman is Batman's greatest enemy.

Originally posted by Zarathustra
The Joker is the very antithesis of everything Batman stands for. Where Batman represents order, The Joker is chaos, where Batman lives in darkness, he's a flash of colour, where Batman has sacrificed happiness, The Joker lives to have fun.

Since you put it that way, then practically every other one of Batman's super-villains other than the Joker are the antithesis of what Batman man stands for as well because, I could name a handful of bad guys that

1. commit chaos

2. are colourful, both literally and figuratively

3. and have fun while doing it.

Tell me one villain whom doesn't enjoy the hell out of causing mass hysteria, pain and suffering?

Originally posted by long pig
Take Batman, turn his obsession with justice into an obsession with crime....and who do you have?

Joker.

Batman sees himself in Joker, and that's why he's his greatest enemy. Because in the end, Batman is Batman's greatest enemy.


I totally disagree. He'd just be as serious as his good self, you changing his obsessions, not his personality..He's not the Joker's opposite, i don't see it.


Batman sees himself in Joker, and that's why he's his greatest enemy. Because in the end, Batman is Batman's greatest enemy.

Batman's is Batman's greatest enemy? I knew that he was scared of bats, but scared of himself? Why? How would he function?

He probably has self-blame and mild depression but i don't think he scares his own-self. Z said, people fear what they don't understand, but Batman knows his own self. It's why and how he kicks ass. As a matter of fact, didn't he actually find himself and what he's about during his pre-batman training stages when he finally conquered himself and his fears?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
1. commit chaos

2. are colourful, both literally and figuratively

3. and have fun while doing it.

Tell me one villain whom doesn't enjoy the hell out of causing mass hysteria, pain and suffering?
One villain? Ra's Al Ghul. More than one? Ra's Al Ghul, Two-Face, Carmine Falcone, The Penguin, Solomon Grundy, Mr. Freeze. Ra's grieves for those he kills, but he commits crimes because he believes his goal is just. Two Face commits crimes as a result of his coin making his decisions for him: you can hardly say he ever enjoys himself when half of him is always at odds with the other. Falcone and the Penguin are both businessmen for the most part. They commit crimes for the material benefits they get out of them: wealth, power, you know. They might enjoy the wealth and power but the crimes? Not so much. Grundy has little mind to speak of so that sorta goes without saying. Mr Freeze has no emotions (or at least no positive emotions) to speak of, so...
Beyond that, however, you've entirely missed the point. Although some villains certainly do commit crimes and enjoy it, most of them have some sort of goal: Wealth, power, revenge, something of the like. There is by definition something understandable about that, something rational, something orderly. Give Bane or The Penguin free run of Gotham and he will amass great wealth, commit crimes, but run the show in a manner that will turn a profit and maintain control of the underworld because he has goals. It will probably be unpleasant but there will be some semblance of order. Give the Joker the same opportunity and he'll do all he can to turn Gotham into a madhouse, kill, maim, and rape at will and why? Because it's fun for him. Because the whole world's a joke and that's his response to it.

While others might have Joker's purely insane motivations, none of them are as colourful (they might be colourful, but no-one's Joker-colourful), none of them have had The Joker's level of success (Score now standing at one Robin, one Batgirl, and one wife to Comissioner Gordon: he's approaching a complete set!). No other member of the rogue's gallery can claim such accomplishments, no one else has done so much damage to Batman.. except perhaps for Bane. The reason Bane isn't as well regarded, though, is because he was essentially a gimmick character, like Doomsday, created for no other reason than to provide a new villain to cripple Batman.

Now all of these things I've mentioned make for a character who certainly stands near the top of the list of Batman's enemies. Add to that the fact that the Joker is "the original" Bat-villain and thus has a history with the hero that no other villain can claim (except for Catwoman, but she's hardly considered an enemy or villain anymore), and there's no doubt he's going to be regarded as the greatest of Batman's foes.

I think long pig has a point. The Joker is as obsessed with crime as Batman is with justice. I actually think the Joker takes this very seriously, so seriously in fact that he has taken the essence of crime, insanity, to the extreme in all aspects of his life.

Originally posted by DarkAge
I The Joker is as obsessed with crime as Batman is with justice.

I actually think the Joker takes this very seriously, so seriously

The 1st part of this statement may be true, but don't you think the 2nd part screams of an oxymoron?

Doesn't the Joker take things as a Joke as opposed to taking things seriously? I mean, it is why he's called the Joker after all, right?

Joker is actually one of the smartest people in DC.

And the reason he's the arch, although he may not be the smartest, Riddler fits that category, nor the strongest, since Bane and Croc are there, he has the most important asset of all...





...he's the most DANGEROUS.

Originally posted by DarkAge
I think long pig has a point. The Joker is as obsessed with crime as Batman is with justice. I actually think the Joker takes this very seriously, so seriously in fact that he has taken the essence of crime, insanity, to the extreme in all aspects of his life.
I concur with FistOfTheNorth's response. To assume the Joker takes things seriously is a mistake: the only times he's seen to act seriously are those few occassions when he's behaving in an uncharacteristic manner. Even then he's quick to revert to nutty and irreverent. On that last point, The Joker's insanity being the result of his affinity for crime rather than the cause of it is an interesting thought, but one that isn't backed up by anything I've ever seen or read. In fact, it's flat out contradicted by many takes on the Joker.
Finally, to say that the essense of crime is insanity needs a bit of justification before it can be accepted. A crime can be committed as the result of a completely sane decision, and I would suggest that most crimes are. Disorder being the essence of a crime might be supported (and the Joker could fit that bill), but insanity? That's doubtful.

Perhaps I should have siad "evil" instead of "crime". Allow me to explain what I meant syllogystically.

Truth is love
Going against truth is insanity
Going against love is evil

Therefore the essence of evil is insanity. There you have the Joker.

The joker is unpredictable. If Two-Face busts out you know he is going to rob the rare second printing of tale of two cities or kidnap the Olsen twins for two million ransom or knock off the Gemini resort and casino, Catwoman steals rare and exotic items that pose a real challenge. Penguin is a business man and looks for the most profit for the least work and he is also concerned with safety. Poison Ivy cares about plants. All of these people Batman can figure out what they will do.
And in a league of his own you got Joker. No one can figure out what he will do next. Earlier you mentioned people who want to take over the world, they are easy to stop, they need big amounts of cash and equipment and people and a large base of operation to keep all this stuff. You can find that fairly easily. Plus to defeat them you have to do fairly little just keep them from world domination, stopping the Joker from killing one random family is much harder then keeping Ras al Ghoul from realizing an airborne plague that will decimate Europe. Ghoul needs the right place to release it the right atmospheric conditions and needs equipment to protect himself and keep the bacteria alive. All of these things could be used to find him and if you take any of them away you stop him. Joker needs a knife or a gun and he will kill a few people

The Joker was created by Bob Kane and is what started The Batman besides the original 1939 comics and Hugo Strange and there was never a villain created by Bob Kane who was seen as final villain for closure to me besides Mr.Freeze but he's a gimmick. Bane wasn't created by Bob Kane.

the Joker kills 20+ people almost every time he escapes.
as opposed to say bane/killer croc that will rob a bank and/or
mess him up or Ras al Ghoul that has "kill the world "(and trys every few years) as a long term
goal but mostly just wants batman as his heir or to post prone his death.

When has Bane EVER robbed a bank? that incrediibly degrades a dark and complex character honestly... FistOfTheNorth, who's a better villain then?

Jack Nicholson

Need I say more?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Mostly all of Batman's other enemies are phisically stronger and/or are even mentally stronger and smarter than either Batman or the Joker are.

Why is that?

I mean i love the Joker, i just don't get it. I mean, wouldn't your worst enemy be the strongest and smartest, basically the most powerful/the biggest threat, and i dunno if Joker is the most powerful.

Joker is THE most dangerous enemy Batman has. Barr none. His brain makes him the most dangerous, not his powers or lack of for that matter. Honestly, the Joker is brilliant. He figured out how to use the philosophy stone in minutes, and it took Lex Luthor months to figure it out.

Batman and Joker are like a Greek play on is comedy the other tragedy, and so they are complete opposites till the end of their days.

However someone that i think if deadlier than the Joker is Hush

Originally posted by allofyousuckkk
Jack Nicholson

Need I say more? why do you think joker was in B89? He's by far Batman's greatest foe... ALWAYS has been...

1. We do not know Joker's real name, it's not 'Jack' (like in B 89'). One of the many reasons he's so dangerous is that we (Batman, people in comics) don't really know anything about the Joker before he showed up.

2. I believe somewhere (I forgot where/when), Batman admitted that The Riddler is his SMARTEST enemy.

3. Joker is the most DANGEROUS enemy b/c he is so unpredictable. Also, he can be so similar and yet so different to the Dark Knight at the same time. Both are just as obsessive, insane & yet one is a dark figure that fights for good and one wears bright colors that embodies evil. And apart from his randomness, he is rather intelligent. I believe the line in 'Hush' while playing chess was "you'll never beat me b/c you can't think like me" (something like that, and yes I know it wasn't joker who said it), how can anyone beat a person that you have no idea what's going on in their twisted head.

It's incredible to see how crazy his character truly is. For example in the end of NML ((SPOILER)) right after he kills Sarah, Gordon fires one off in his leg. The joker starts complaining from the pain, and no more than 10 seconds pass by before he starts to laugh at what he thinks is a joke. (he thinks it's a joke b/c he is the reason the commisioners daughter, Barbara is handicapped, so he ends up saying something like "oh commish, that's a good one, just like I shot your daughter!!" LOL.

4. I doubt DC will ever kill the Joker. I'd be pretty shocked if they were to do that. He has had a great contribution to making Batman the person he is today. And not only Batman, but the storyline itself. If there were no Joker, who would be doing "oracle's" job? And if Barbara was still BatGirl, where would Cass be? Where would the new Robin be? (B/c Jason Todd would still be around)... some food for thought

My 2 Cents...

I always liked the Joker the best because he always seems the most "real". I mean he can't fly, grow plants, or shapeshift....... all he has is his mind. To me he always seemed like a mirror for what Bruce Wayne could become if he ever snapped.

Indeed... also, some good points, Jamaican, and I agree with most of that... well, all of that pretty much!