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I'm talking about the forces themselves (no host bodies).

Both Spectre and the entities are at full power.

Who wins?

this is mutant x GF at full power..

..................

bleh to much power man they would have to fight outside the multiverses maybe outside the omniverse anyway who wins i dont know the PF has been said to destroy and create the universes replacing even LT by Eternity himself was this said anyway the Spectre on the other hand has defeated all magic in the DCU........for now i say stalemate.

Spectre full powered= Nobody beats him

the brothers beat him and so does micheals daughter

Originally posted by Mider
the brothers beat him and so does micheals daughter

Indeed. Where has it ever been stated that a full power Spectre equates to God? Hs that ever been demonstrated or is that just an assumption?

Anybody above LT would beat IMO Spectre

Originally posted by golem370
Anybody above LT would be Spectre

I wouldnt say thats necessarily the case. With our recent analysis of him and his feats he aint looking so hot these days.

Thats nonsense him getting beat by Korvac or him being less powerful then Beyonder any Beyonder.

Originally posted by golem370
Thats nonsense him getting beat by Korvac or him being less powerful then Beyonder any Beyonder.

What has he done to show you its nonsense?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Indeed. Where has it ever been stated that a full power Spectre equates to God? Hs that ever been demonstrated or is that just an assumption? Well, the Logoz has been called "the physical manifestation of god", Hal called it "A piece of God itself". The Logoz itself described it as "A thought in Gods mind." and "Gods will". And Deadman, who also works for God, but who he knows as Ranma Kushna, found out that it was Spectre he was working for in Dead Again.

I still wouldn't equate him neccisarly to God, but, he's apperently the next best thing.

He is the Judge Jury and Excutioner of the Mutiverse that should be enough to a sure you of his powers. Better question is if He ain't all that he cracked up to be why has he been on the throne for so long?

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, the Logoz has been called "the physical manifestation of god", Hal called it "A piece of God itself". The Logoz itself described it as "A thought in Gods mind." and "Gods will". And Deadman, who also works for God, but who he knows as Ranma Kushna, found out that it was Spectre he was working for in Dead Again.

I still wouldn't equate him neccisarly to God, but, he's apperently the next best thing.

But is Spectre the actual Logoz as opposed to being one with it, its representative? Where is that shown/stated?

But yes i agree with you the Spectre doesnt necessarily equate to God, theres no evidence for that

Originally posted by golem370
He is the Judge Jury and Excutioner of the Mutiverse that should be enough to a sure you of his powers. Better question is if He ain't all that he cracked up to be why has he been on the throne for so long?

Youre confusing role with power. All of what you said is LTs role but as we've seen his power is far from absolute. Hes had no conclusive high showings whilst hes also had a number of low showings which havent been explained away. In one of those showings he stated he didnt have the necessary power. Role is not enough.

Thats BS

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But is Spectre the actual Logoz as opposed to being one with it, its representative? Where is that shown/stated?

But yes i agree with you the Spectre doesnt necessarily equate to God, theres no evidence for that Spectre volume 4 issue 4, Hal sees past the Wrath and finds The Logoz. The Wrath is just how the Universe has percieved The Logoz. And Hal's pure force of will is apperently great enough to hold these perceptions at bay. Through a lot of the rest of the series Hal says stuff like "with the power of the logoz I'll. . " bla bla, you get the idea. He spends an entire arc of the series going from place to place ascending from the sky in holy light and leading souls "home". The Spectre-force IS the Logoz however. The Spectre though, is a soul bonded to The Logoz, and I doubt anyone after Hal will have the will to get past the will of The Wrath.

As long as he remains the Judge of the Muti Verse then there is no way of telling who's more powerful. All the abstract beings of the Marvel Comics came to LT during the Infinity Gauntlet no one else. When Adam Warlock tryed to do something against LT it didn't work granted he did have that power trusted to him but he had the power none the less. Until Phoenix or the inifinites or the TOAA toss him off that throne he is the law in Marvel Comics....

Straight out of that issue. Issue 4 of Spectre's series.

"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."


Then on page 14, for further backup..

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre confusing role with power. All of what you said is LTs role but as we've seen his power is far from absolute. Hes had no conclusive high showings whilst hes also had a number of low showings which havent been explained away. In one of those showings he stated he didnt have the necessary power. Role is not enough. Ah, don't be too hard on him, he indeed did say it would take someone ABOVE LT to stop Spectre in that initial post.

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre volume 4 issue 4, Hal sees past the Wrath and finds The Logoz. The Wrath is just how the Universe has percieved The Logoz. And Hal's pure force of will is apperently great enough to hold these perceptions at bay. Through a lot of the rest of the series Hal says stuff like "with the power of the logoz I'll. . " bla bla, you get the idea. He spends an entire arc of the series going from place to place ascending from the sky in holy light and leading souls "home". The Spectre-force IS the Logoz however. The Spectre though, is a soul bonded to The Logoz, and I doubt anyone after Hal will have the will to get past the will of The Wrath.

Yeah i was just reading the issue. To be fair it can still be interpreted as Spectre being a representation of the Logos, just like the Word( as shown in Swamp Thing v3) is stated to be and he is referred to in the series as Spectres older brother.

Its so ambiguous, i dont know what to believe. Hmmm.

Originally posted by golem370
Thats BS

Why? Because you say so? Mere opinion. Back it up otherwise its useless here.

Originally posted by golem370
As long as he remains the Judge of the Muti Verse then there is no way of telling who's more powerful. All the abstract beings of the Marvel Comics came to LT during the Infinity Gauntlet no one else. When Adam Warlock tryed to do something against LT it didn't work granted he did have that power trusted to him but he had the power none the less. Until Phoenix or the inifinites or the TOAA toss him off that throne he is the law in Marvel Comics....

And yet thats still his ROLE. Role doesnt come hand in hand with power as we've seen by LTs various low showings whilst having a lack of high showings.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah i was just reading the issue. To be fair it can still be interpreted as Spectre being a representation of the Logos, just like the Word( as shown in Swamp Thing v3) is stated to be and he is referred to in the series as Spectres older brother. I suppose, but it did clearly fully identify itself as The Logoz, on panel. It doesn't say "representation of". That would just be speculation.

Originally posted by Juntai
I suppose, but it did clearly fully identify itself as The Logoz, on panel. It doesn't say "representation of". That would just be speculation.

Yeah but the Wrath was referred to as the veil suggesting that Spectre is a representation of the Logos. The face of the Logos we see on the physical plane. Thats actually stated more or less in that same scene i believe. That doesnt necessarily mean the Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just an aspect of it, just like the Word is and it describes the Spectre as a brother. The scene could have just been revealing the nature of the Spectres power as opposed to retconning the previous idea. According to his bio the Voice/Logos did transform Aztar into an embodiment of Heavens might so all in all it can still be interpreted that way. But either way it doesnt really change that much whatever interpretation you choose.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah but the Wrath was referred to as the veil suggesting that Spectre is a representation of the Logos. The face of the Logos we see on the physical plane. Thats actually stated more or less in that same scene i believe. That doesnt necessarily mean the Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just an aspect of it, just like the Word is and it describes the Spectre as a brother. The scene could have just been revealing the nature of the Spectres power as opposed to retconning the previous idea. According to his bio the Voice/Logos did transform Aztar into an embodiment of Heavens might so all in all it can still be interpreted that way. But either way it doesnt really change that much whatever interpretation you choose. The Word and The Logoz are both aspects of The Presence. In fact, Micheal often refers to God as "The Word"..

That aside, as shown, The Logoz itself told Hal The Spectre is indeed The Logoz, and the Wrath is merely how people percieve it. There's really not much arguing it. Like I said, it's all speculation to assume otherwise.



And in that old Spectre issue, Issue 60 of the Ostrander Mandrake era. . .so there's no more misunderstanding of Spectre's creation.
__________________________________________
Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

_____________________________________________
There you have it, no angel, only God, and it still fits with in with current continuity.
So there it is..
Spectre = Wrath = Logoz, in the twisted form of an angel to give it a physical presence.

Spectre has a role in DC Universe so does Michael & Lucifer. If it wasn't for the DC Supreme Being where would they be?

Originally posted by Juntai
The Word and The Logoz are both aspects of The Presence. In fact, Micheal often refers to God as "The Word"..

That aside, as shown, The Logoz itself told Hal The Spectre is indeed The Logoz, and the Wrath is merely how people percieve it. There's really not much arguing it. Like I said, it's all speculation to assume otherwise.



And in that old Spectre issue, Issue 60 of the Ostrander Mandrake era. . .so there's no more misunderstanding of Spectre's creation.
__________________________________________
Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

_____________________________________________
There you have it, no angel, only God, and it still fits with in with current continuity.
So there it is..
Spectre = Wrath = Logoz, in the twisted form of an angel to give it a physical presence.

None of that states or suggests that the Wrath is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just a representation of it. All that says is that as we all know Aztar was transformed into the embodiment of gods wrath. Saying Spectre is a representation of the Logos isnt speculation anymore than you saying he is the sum total of Logoz. Its just two different interpretations of a single ambiguous source.

Spectre v4 says the Wrath is the veil and beneath it lies the Logos. That doesnt necessarily say that Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to a representation of the Logoz. In the same way Eternity is a representation of the 616 universe without actually being the sum total of the universe itself. The totality of the universe is beyond the representation we are allowed to perceive on the physical plane. Im not saying Spectre and the Logos arent one but im just saying that it states that Spectre is perception of the Logos not that Spectre IS the Logos. Theres a difference.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
None of that states or suggests that the Wrath is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just a representation of it. All that says is that as we all know Aztar was transformed into the embodiment of gods wrath. Saying Spectre is a representation of the Logos isnt speculation anymore than you saying he is the sum total of Logoz. Its just two different interpretations of a single ambiguous source.

Spectre v4 says the Wrath is the veil and beneath it lies the Logos. That doesnt necessarily say that Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to a representation of the Logoz. In the same way Eternity is a representation of the 616 universe without actually being the sum total of the universe itself. The totality of the universe is beyond the representation we are allowed to perceive on the physical plane. Im not saying Spectre and the Logos arent one but im just saying that it states that Spectre is perception of the Logos not that Spectre IS the Logos. Theres a difference. No, it states the WRATH is a perception. Nothing more. The issue 4 clearly has it indentifying itself as The Logoz. And while YOU believe it's "inconclusive" it IS completely inarguably that is indeed what the comic shows Spectre to be. Until disproven or even retconed later on down the road, The Spectreforce IS the Logoz.

Doesn't The Presence powers Spectre up. The Presence is the supreme, so if he would give enough power, Spectre would take PF down, if not, than PF would take Spectre down. So it really depends. Both can win, but it could be also one sided if The Presence would chose to give too much power to Spectre, something that even PF wouldn't be able to handle and we know The Presence could do that.

Need more proof?
Brb.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, it states the WRATH is a perception. Nothing more. The issue 4 clearly has it indentifying itself as The Logoz. And while YOU believe it's "inconclusive" it IS completely inarguably that is indeed what the comic shows Spectre to be. Until disproven or even retconed later on down the road, The Spectreforce IS the Logoz.


Nowhere does it state that the Spectre IS the Logos. It says that Hal has pierced the veil of the Wrath and beneath it lies the Logos. That is open to interpretation it is not a conclusive closed statement. Spectre is the wrath embodied so from that line you interpret that Spectre represents the Logos, that through the Spectre the will of the Logos is carried out on the physical plane. With that in mind it isnt inarguable, a retcon isnt required on panel as you are not backed up by a conclusive statement. Only your interpretation of a scene which is far from conclusive.

Spectre volume 4 issue 10.
This is when Hal finally just began to fully understand the level he was on..

Spectre/Hal battling Spectre/Paralax.
"I really have to thank you Parallax, for sending me into the void, To a place that exists beyond the threshhold of our conscious limitations. Because by becoming one with the void. I was able to at least begin to do what my friend Abin Sur suggested: Transcend my limited view of myself. Break the constraits of individual identity. I've been so many different beings down through history Lived so many millions of lifetimes. With so many more yet to come. But beyond all of that... I'm a spirit. And then beyond that.....I'm connected to The Logoz that God merged with me. To the Oversoul Itself. To The divine Presence that contains and surpasses everything in creation. Viewed from that perspective... You're just one small aspect of one small incarnation.. Just a minor drifting thought in the sea of eternity.


That's twice now Spectre is indentified as The Logoz and bonded with Hal on panel.

Do I really need to get out another issue?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Doesn't The Presence powers Spectre up. The Presence is the supreme, so if he would give enough power, Spectre would take PF down, if not, than PF would take Spectre down. So it really depends. Both can win, but it could be also one sided if The Presence would chose to give too much power to Spectre, something that even PF wouldn't be able to handle and we know The Presence could do that.

Thats an interesting point XP. Thats what im trying to establish here it would be good to find out once and for all. Does Spectre get powered up to fight beings or is he just of a set power level given to him by the Presence, only being able to act on matters within his jurisdiction as laid out by the Presence.

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre volume 4 issue 10.
This is when Hal finally just began to fully understand the level he was on..

Spectre/Hal battling Spectre/Paralax.
"I really have to thank you Parallax, for sending me into the void, To a place that exists beyond the threshhold of our conscious limitations. Because by becoming with the void. I was able to at least begin to do what my friend Abin Sur suggested: Transcend my limited view of myself. Break the constraits of individual identity. I've been so many different beings down through history Lived so many millions of lifetimes. With so many more yet to come. But beyond all of that... I'm a spirit. And then beyond that.....I'm connected to The Logoz that God merged with me. To the Oversoul Itself. To The divine Presence that contains and surpasses everything in creation. Viewed from that perspective... You're just one small aspect of one small incarnation.. Just a minor drifting thought in the sea of eternity.


That's twice now Spectre is indentified as The Logoz and bonded with Hal.

Do I really need to get out another issue?

No but if the Spectre stems from the Logos then of course a host of the Spectre is going to be connected to it as well. You arent backed up any conclusive statements. Therefore its still just your interpretation versus mine.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No but if the Spectre stems from the Logos then of course a host of the Spectre is going to be connected to it as well. You arent backed up any conclusive statements. Therefore its still just your interpretation versus mine. THE LOGOZ THAT GOD MERGED WITH ME

The Spectre is The Spectreforce MERGED with a human soul.


You're obviously lacking comprehension skills today bro.

So we have Spectre itself identifying ITSELF as The Logoz.
And Spectre/Hal later on identifying himself as merged with The Logoz.

Both on panel.

NOT Spectre identifying itself as a "PIECE" of the Logoz
and not Hal "Drawing power from"



This is not really up to interpretation.

Originally posted by Juntai
THE LOGOZ THAT GOD BONDED WITH ME

The Spectre is The Spectreforce BONDED with a human soul.



You're obviously lacking comprehension skills today bro.

At the same time the Logos transformed Aztar into a vessel for gods might. He became the SpectreForce.

Spectre V4 says the Wrath which he became is a veil and that beneath it lies the Logos.

The Logos has manifested as the Word which itself isnt the sum total of the Logos but an aspect of it. One of its faces.

Spectre is part of the Logos it represents a part of it however i didnt interpret it as being the sum of the Logos. Prove me wrong.

Juntai this is a comic debate im merely disagreeing with you, youre taking it too personally. Please extend the same courtesy i currently am to you. Chill.

Originally posted by Juntai
So we have Spectre itself identifying ITSELF as The Logoz.
And Spectre/Hal later on identifying himself as merged with The Logoz.

Both on panel.

NOT Spectre identifying itself as a "PIECE" of the Logoz
and not Hal "Drawing power from"



This is not really up to interpretation.

Nope. Spectre identified itself as a part of the Logos one of its faces which Hal saw through to see the true nature of the Spectre. Hence the line "your belief has pierced the veil to reveal the Logos beneath". My interpretation is that Spectre is just the wrath aspect of the Logos which has also manifested as the Word who funnily enough looks like Spectre in red.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Spectre identified itself as a part of the Logos one of its faces which Hal saw through to see the true nature of the Spectre. Hence the line "your belief has pierced the veil to reveal the Logos beneath". My interpretation is that Spectre is just the wrath aspect of the Logos which has also manifested as the Word who funnily enough looks like Spectre in red. Again in Spectre issue 11,

On the very last page;

Phantom Stranger Narrating of Hal's actions while Hal tries to figure out what happened to his sanctuary where he could watch over the planes of reality and beyond:

He accesses the Logoz: The conscious spark of God that joined him to manifest The Spectre.

Do I need a 4th on panel mention of it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Spectre identified itself as a part of the Logos one of its faces which Hal saw through to see the true nature of the Spectre. Hence the line "your belief has pierced the veil to reveal the Logos beneath". My interpretation is that Spectre is just the wrath aspect of the Logos which has also manifested as the Word who funnily enough looks like Spectre in red. The Logoz identified itself as one of Gods faces, not Spectre being one of Logoz' faces, however, that second one disproved it when Hal said he was MERGED WITH THE LOGOZ. And then AGAIN in my last post a moment ago.


Your intepretation is being disproved by the comics themselves over and over again.
By The Logoz itself.
By Hal himself as being merged with the Logoz.
And by Phantom Stranger who holds a very close bond to Spectre, as he's been a part of every incarnation of Spectre. And is often found at his side.

Originally posted by Juntai
Again in Spectre issue 11,

On the very last page;

Phantom Stranger Narrating of Hal's actions while Hal tries to figure out what happened to his sanctuary where he could watch over the planes of reality and beyond:

He accesses the Logoz: The conscious spark of God that joined him to manifest The Spectre.

Do I need a 4th on panel mention of it?

That doesnt discredit my interpretation especially when ive referred to Spectre as being a face of the Logos an aspect of it. Hes just not the sum total of it imo. In your opinion he is. Without conclusive statements its still very much open to debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That doesnt discredit my interpretation especially when ive referred to Spectre as being a face of the Logos an aspect of it. Hes just not the sum total of it imo. In your opinion he is. Without conclusive statements its still very much open to debate. Until you can prove otherwise, it is the logoz, as identified.

Hal again in issue 4
"Within the Logoz I'm merged with, is the record of all of history from the dawn of creation to this very moment. And he wants you. WE want you. To see the truth you've been blind to."



Issue 13
"A man who died and been reborn, fused with a Divine Thought in the mind of God. Through that union was born humanity's hope: The Spirit of Redemption.

One with the Creator and yet unbearably alone, neither dead nor living, ghost nor man, he stop atop that tower feeling and unknown grief. Listening to the haunting melody of an unknown song.

So yet another few times we have him as being ONE or MERGED with THE LOGOZ, and not an "aspect of", the only "aspect of" being mentioned, is that The Logoz is an Aspect of God.

Originally posted by Juntai
Until you can prove otherwise, it is the logoz, as identified.

Hal again in issue 4
"Within the Logoz I'm merged with, is the record of all of history from the dawn of creation to this very moment. And he wants you. WE want you. To see the truth you've been blind to."



Issue 13
"A man who died and been reborn, fused with a Divine Thought in the mind of God. Through that unon was born humanity's hope: The Spirit of Redemption.

One with the Creator and yet unbearably alone, neither dead nor living, ghost nor man, he stop atop that toiwer feeling and unknown grief. Listening to the haunting melody of an unknown song.

So yet another few times we have him as being ONE or MERGED with THE LOGOZ, and not an "aspect of", the only "aspect of" being mentioned, is that The Logoz is an Aspect of God.

By your interpretation. Youre in no position to be claiming the situation non debatable when you have no conclusive statements backing you up.

As it stands all of these quotes come from the same run and if im not mistaken the same writer. In this run the writer by my interpretation has identified that Spectre is the face of the Logos on the physical plane. Saying that Hal is bonded to the Logos doesnt dismiss my interpretation as he is. The Spectre Force represents the Logos its its face of Vengeance, just not its sum total imo. Theres no conclusive statements to prove either of us wrong so we might just have to agree to disagree.

SpectreForce/Aztar was bonded with the Logos. Aztar was transformed into an embodiment of Gods might. Explain to me how Spectre is the sum total of the Logos predated Spectre? Spectres one with it a part of it. Hosts are therefore connected to the Logos.

The fact that the Logos has other aspects such as the Word who have different roles from Spectre says it all really. How can Spectre be all there is to the Logos the sum total of it with that in mind? Imo Spectre is a side of the Logos. The Logos obviously predated Aztar and it was by Gods decree ( so the Logos) that Aztar got transformed into an embodiment of Gods might. He became the SpectreForce the Face of Vengeance on the physical plane, a representation of the Logos. Not its sum total.

Gotta go. We'll continue this 2morrow. Jun dont take it so personal its just comics lol.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By your interpretation. Youre in no position to be claiming the situation non debatable when you have no conclusive statements backing you up.

As it stands all of these quotes come from the same run and if im not mistaken the same writer. In this run the writer by my interpretation has identified that Spectre is the face of the Logos on the physical plane. Saying that Hal is bonded to the Logos doesnt dismiss my interpretation as he is. The Spectre Force represents the Logos its its face of Vengeance, just not its sum total imo. Theres no conclusive statements to prove either of us wrong so we might just have to agree to disagree.

SpectreForce/Aztar was bonded with the Logos. Aztar was transformed into an embodiment of Gods might. Explain to me how Spectre is the sum total of the Logos predated Spectre? Spectres one with it a part of it. Hosts are therefore connected to the Logos. By your same logic I could discern that LT and Pheonix are nothing more than aspects of Captain America's true self. And you have no way of disproving it.

However, I've proved over and over again that Spectre IS one The Logoz. At least you know that to be true,

It's clearly established in issue 4 alone that:
1: The Wrath is just a face, a facade, an illusion, just because that's the way man percieves The Logoz. The Logoz itself told Hal this.

2: Hal is bonded to The Spectre, therefore bonded to The Logoz.

Why would you assume it's only a piece though, especially when it's never even hinted at?
In issue 11, Spectre spread himself across all worlds, times, planes and reality as a whole, and became the embodiment of redemption and the face of God to all of Creation.



In Spectre 17, it identifies the Logoz as Hal's direct connection to The Presence. Once more suggesting The Logoz is an aspect of Presence, not Spectre being an aspect of The Logoz. Then he recreated the universe again, for what, the fifth?, sixth? millionth time?

And once again in the final issue, he reaffirms that he is indeed bonded to the Logoz, and that The Logoz is a piece The Presence.
And once again establishes that Spectre, or The Logoz has various aspects of ITSELF. All stemming from Hal, as he calls himself "Spectre Prime".

"It still astonishes me what I can do. This ability to take aspects of my own consciousness and give them form... And send them off across the universe. How is this possible?

It's not as if I understand the process: I just do it. Urge becomes thought, becomes manifestation. And each one of these reflections... each one of these others, is as much of me as I am.

Yet I remain to connected to them all. The controlling consciousness. Spectre Prime. Yet I don't fell as if I'm really controlling them. It's as if we're part of the cosmic tapestry-- carrying out the will of something -- someone-- far greater than all of us.

There are times I wonder if I'm not just one more reflection of a still-larger mind. That's waiting to call me home, and swollow me up.

Undream me.

And perhaps I am. What can identity mea, after all, when you've left the world of matter of illusory between the spririt and flesh behind?

So I sail off across the Earth day after day, night after night, in more shapes and forms thatn I could ever count. Sail off to do what must be done in order to save the world one soul at a time.


Across the Earth and across the galaxies. For my work isn't limited to one planet, one culture, one small vision of reality. The Hand of The Divine reaches across space and time... across all the limitless planes of existance. And where he points. I follow....

..cajoling and caressing, exhorting and harassing, comforting and terrifying, doing whatever needs to be done... Whatever each individual heart requires.. to awaken the new universe, the new age of jor and miracles, that lies . . fully realized . . . all around us.

Just waiting for us to open our eyes.

And see it."





In this very comic you see Spectre holding all of creation in his hands. And shaping and reshaping it.

Forgive my typos, I was typing while staring at the page.

I wasn't sure about this one but Juntai convinced me. He showed several quotes from the comics that seem to prove his arguements. I don't know as much about the Spectre, Phoenix force, and Goblin force as others so take my opinion for what its worth. But until anyone else can show some actual evidence and not just their theory, I'd say Juntai is right and the Spectre takes this.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I wasn't sure about this one but Juntai convinced me. He showed several quotes from the comics that seem to prove his arguements. I don't know as much about the Spectre, Phoenix force, and Goblin force as others so take my opinion for what its worth. But until anyone else can show some actual evidence and not just their theory, I'd say Juntai is right and the Spectre takes this. Well it's pretty obvious, The Spectre/Hal casted out The Wrath, finding it was just a perception and not actually the Spectre, that The Logoz was The Spectre, then through the series found that could create other aspects of himself and reality, and that he was greater than Creation itself and could mold and shape all planes, times and realities, and spread his consciousness across all of this and became the face of God to all of creation, and that he was indeed The Hand of God.

And then of course... Rebirth happened.

blowup

rrright....

...

Well i agree with GS, Spectre (the Wrath) is a piece of the Logos/The Word who is a piece of The Presence himself. everything i've read and have read on these posts still confirm The Spectre to be a aspect of The Word/Logos. the only thing is i see to differ from gs is The Logos(z) and the Word, they are the same being not The Word being a aspect of the Logos....

Originally posted by kevdude
Well i agree with GS, Spectre (the Wrath) is a piece of the Logos/The Word who is a piece of The Presence himself. everything i've read and have read on these posts still confirm The Spectre to be a aspect of The Word/Logos. the only thing is i see to differ from gs is The Logos(z) and the Word, they are the same being not The Word being a aspect of the Logos.... Read the last issue of Hal's series again. When he expanded his consciousness, he found himself to be beyond all planes and times, and existing in all of them at once, and melding and shifting reality all of it as needed to be done, and leading all of the souls to heaven with his billions of aspects.
And you think this is only a small piece of the logoz?
He was holding the entirety of creation in his hand, and helping it flow along.

I've pointed out tons of proof in this thread alone.

everything u have said really proves the point that the Spectre(Wrath) is a part of The Logos who is a piece of God(the Presence), not Spectre being a piece of God, when Hal threw off the Spectre(wrath) he found the Logos hiding beneath. when Hal split himself up into into thousands of pieces he was using the Logos power which the Spectre uses but using it for redemption, the Spectre would come around every once and awhile and try to convince Hal to switch to vengeance and on a couple times almost got Hal to change over.

In issue 1 we see Satan/Lucifer talking with Hal about why is Hal so much of a monster if he isn't connected with the Wrath/Spectre anymore??? they both keep talking and Lucifer never tells him its because of the Parallax entity, probably because he didn't care. So ther u go there is a few instances showing the Wrath/Spectre to be a part of the Logos/Word.

Originally posted by kevdude
everything u have said really proves the point that the Spectre(Wrath) is a part of The Logos who is a piece of God(the Presence), not Spectre being a piece of God, when Hal threw off the Spectre(wrath) he found the Logos hiding beneath. when Hal split himself up into into thousands of pieces he was using the Logos power which the Spectre uses but using it for redemption, the Spectre would come around every once and awhile and try to convince Hal to switch to vengeance and on a couple times almost got Hal to change over.

In issue 1 we see Satan/Lucifer talking with Hal about why is Hal so much of a monster if he isn't connected with the Wrath/Spectre anymore??? they both keep talking and Lucifer never tells him its because of the Parallax entity, probably because he didn't care. So ther u go there is a few instances showing the Wrath/Spectre to be a part of the Logos/Word. Spectre is just a name people give the character, The Logoz, bonded to a human soul.

You're obviously all confused.

The Wrath is NOT The Spectre. The Wrath is just a perception as pointed out by the Logoz itself. The Logoz is. It told Hal that itself. And Hal was bonded to The Logoz as I pointed out several times. The Specteforce is The Logoz, once again pointed out several times.... the comics made this very clear.

You made absolutely no points, only showed how confused you are on the topic.

lol nah only shows u cant keep up The Wrath and the Spectre/Aztar was forced to join The Word/Logos understand??? its a part of the Logos now which is perceived that way. The Spectre himself is called that because he uses the Spectre Force, which in DOV was taken away from him for a short time. the Spectre Force was used by Eclispo but it was to hard on humanity and God decided to get another being as the Wrath and which Aztar would become.. Come on Juntai keep up

Originally posted by kevdude
lol nah only shows u cant keep up The Wrath and the Spectre/Aztar was forced to join The Word/Logos understand??? its a part of the Logos now which is perceived that way. The Spectre himself is called that because he uses the Spectre Force, which in DOV was taken away from him for a short time. the Spectre Force was used by Eclispo but it was to hard on humanity and God decided to get another being as the Wrath and which Aztar would become.. Come on Juntai keep up "I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."


Then on page 14, for further backup..

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"



That alone proves most of your theory wrong.
Hal saw past The Wrath, which was just a perception, and saw that it was actually The Logoz.

Then in the later issues of his series, Hal found that he was Hand of God, and could control the ebb and flow of Creation as whole.
Which I also showed back a page or two.

He also found that The Logoz was doing all of that all along, just unconsciously, Hal merely found the way to understand and control that power.

well all that proves is what im saying is correct. the Wrath/Spectre is a perception of what the Logos/Word is, notice just before that Hal actually throwing off the Spectre and kept going and found the Logoz??? thats because its what the Spectre does, its his job is to be the Wrath.

Originally posted by kevdude
well all that proves is what im saying is correct. the Wrath/Spectre is a perception of what the Logos/Word is, notice just before that Hal actually throwing off the Spectre and kept going and found the Logoz??? thats because its what the Spectre does, its his job is to be the Wrath. The Wrath is NOT The Spectre. Hal was still The Spectre without The Wrath, he even changed into The Redemption rather than The Wrath.

Anyways, he saw that The Wrath was just a perception the denizens of the Universe give it, and that it was really The Logoz he was bonded to. He made mention of this dozens of times, which I also mentioned, quoted from the comics themselves, in this very thread. And from that point, Hal found that he was what he called Spectre Prime, and that his power was even farther reaching than that subconsciously. Then found how to contol that as well and that he was actually the Hand of God, and could control the ebb and flow of Creation as whole. He became the face of God to all of creation.

He was even illustated in tha final issue, holding all of Creation in his hand, similarly to Yahweh holding Creation.

agree with Juntai..he has backed up everything he has said with quotes right out of the comics... and he seems pretty chilled to me, why do you keep telling him to chill out GS? you told him to chill like 3 times when he isnt even "wigging" over anything, except proving his point, which you can't disapprove, when you tell him to chill you're just trying to make him look bad.

the only possible equal i can find for the spectre is the PF and no im not being a fanboy thats what im stating

Well everything i've said can be backed up and if u read it correctly then u would see where juntai is wrong. pretty much 99.8% of the time i've read what juntai has said everything is correct, this is however 1 of those time's in which he is wrong. go and look at the Spectre page on dcultimateguide.com or read some of the Hal/Spectre comics and i believe and it shows everything ive said is right. The Spectre/Azter is not the first person to use the Spectre Force (Eclispo was the first) but he was transformed into a being that is used and has a special bond to The Word.

If you look in DOV IC Special at the end we see The Spectre demanding for more power to destroy Nabu, he actually starts to shine from within himself when he is given that power, that power in which is The Logos/The Words power starts to shine out. this shows the Spectre is not the Word but its wrath.

Also if The Logoz is the Spectre then he would have had to rebel during the great war in Heaven, the Logos/Word has never rebelled against The Presence and never will! During Satan/Lucifer talking to Hal about the Wrath, he was wondering if God or the Universe had decided it(wrath/Spectre) was an outdated idea and that the universe needed now was redemption, Lucifer was debating Hal about whether the Spectre was still a fallen Angel (pointing to u Spectre is NOT the LOGOZ/WORD).

way to much information about the Spectre not being the Logoz/Word but a perception of it ( a perception the universe/god has given the Logoz/Word as its face the universe see's it rit now).

Originally posted by kevdude
Well everything i've said can be backed up and if u read it correctly then u would see where juntai is wrong. pretty much 99.8% of the time i've read what juntai has said everything is correct, this is however 1 of those time's in which he is wrong. go and look at the Spectre page on dcultimateguide.com or read some of the Hal/Spectre comics and i believe and it shows everything ive said is right. The Spectre/Azter is not the first person to use the Spectre Force (Eclispo was the first) but he was transformed into a being that is used and has a special bond to The Word.

If you look in DOV IC Special at the end we see The Spectre demanding for more power to destroy Nabu, he actually starts to shine from within himself when he is given that power, that power in which is The Logos/The Words power starts to shine out. this shows the Spectre is not the Word but its wrath.

Also if The Logoz is the Spectre then he would have had to rebel during the great war in Heaven, the Logos/Word has never rebelled against The Presence and never will! During Satan/Lucifer talking to Hal about the Wrath, he was wondering if God or the Universe had decided it(wrath/Spectre) was an outdated idea and that the universe needed now was redemption, Lucifer was debating Hal about whether the Spectre was still a fallen Angel (pointing to u Spectre is NOT the LOGOZ/WORD).

way to much information about the Spectre not being the Logoz/Word but a perception of it ( a perception the universe/god has given the Logoz/Word as its face the universe see's it rit now). Like I showed, as everyone else seems to see but you, the comics show differently than your point of view. Hal showed us what Spectre really is-- The Logoz. And Spectre IS NOT just the Wrath of The Logoz. Hal was the Spectre, he was NOT The Wrath, he was bonded to The Logoz, NOT The Wrath. I've given evidence to support all of this, why are you even still bothering to argue it? You're posting view and hearsay, I'm posting ACTUAL COMIC INFORMATION. WORDS DIRECTLY FROM THEM.

I doubt however, that anytime soon anyone else will find their experience as The Spectre the same way, most likely they will return to The Wrath, as no one else has Hal's pure force Willpower, save maybe Superman to push back the perceptions of existance as a whole. It is quite clear though, that Spectre is indeed The Logoz, and at the height of his power, is second only to The Presence, as he can control the ebb and flow of all creation and the souls within it. He took on the job of The Logoz. All in the name of Spectre, while, I reiterate, NOT BEING THE WRATH.

Funny thing is, this is not the first time it's happened either. At the end of volume 1 and 3 and 4, Spectre became nigh omnipotent and nearly The Presence's equal.

controversial...

bump

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Originally posted by joesha28
Spectre full powered= Nobody beats him

TrueLivingTribunal