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Warrior Madness Thor



vs.



Immortal Hercules

Thor.

how strong is warrior madness
?

real strong. h2h w/o hammer thor still beats him down. with hammer it's a massacre.

Originally posted by Rewmac
how strong is warrior madness
?

10x stronger than his normal self.

Originally posted by the Darkone
10x stronger than his normal self.
Proof? I have a hard time believing a 10x stronger Thor would still lose to Thanos. King Thor didn't even seem 10x stronger. Beta Ray Bill, Surfer and Warlock still put up good fights against him.

Thor vol.1 160 whe he fought "him" aka Adam Warlock, King Thor is stronger than his normal self . Warrior Madness Thor is full potential not holding as where normal Thor does. He beat the sh** out infinity watch, silver surfer, beta ray bill, dr. strange without breaking a swet. He beat sh** out of drax the destroyer and he had the power gem and made him cough it up. Regular Thor defeated Thanos even though Thanos has defeated him more often then not.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Warrior Madness Thor is full potential not holding as where normal Thor does.
Which is exactly what I've been trying to say everytime someone throws out that 10x number. If he was 10x stronger he would have creamed everyone in 5 seconds but Bill, Surfer, and everyone else put up good fights.

10x has always been a fallacy -- a forum sponsored fallacy. he IS stronger, but its more of an 'unleashing' of his full strength i've always thought. and a complete disregard for pain or mercy. i've gotta guess that it is marvel's take on the northern 'berserker' warriors that used to ravage and pillage europe and anywhere else the vikings landed.

warrior thor is just thor without any self-imposed limits.

least that's what i've always thought.

Warrior Madness Thor nearly killed Beat Ray Bill and Silver Surfer. Beta Ray Bill was getting his head kicked in and so was Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock is afraid of warrior madness thor and he fought warrior madness thor a fight he wouldn't want to get into again.

Thor #160

It's hard to disaggregate the power gem and warrior madness in the surfer/strange/warlock/etc. fight

But IIRC, it was clearly stated in narration that thor was AT LEAST 10x stronger in warrior madness. That is pretty ridiculously strong, given that base strength thor tore the midgart serpent from its vice grip on the planet earth.

Immortal hercules is outclassed here.

Originally posted by The Ion
Proof? I have a hard time believing a 10x stronger Thor would still lose to Thanos. King Thor didn't even seem 10x stronger. Beta Ray Bill, Surfer and Warlock still put up good fights against him.

Why do you say this? Thanos has fought multiple heros as powerful as thor simultaneously and smashed them easily. He was matching tyrant, a galaxy-destroying being of literally infinite strength, in a physical battle -- when various other of the strongest beings in the marvel universe could not even hurt him. He has been involved in at least 2 fistfights where a planet was destroyed accidentally by afterswings.

I'd say thanos at base strength (without cosmic/magical/tech amplification) is at least 100x stronger than thor. Probably much more, considering he has beaten immensely strong power-gem wielders (drax, champion, thor) on many occasions.

Losing to thanos tells us almost nothing about warrior madness's boost.

100x stronger??

you must be kidding. he's admitted to wanting to avoid a physical confrontation with the hulk! and in the battle you're quoting with tyrant you failed to mention that thanos was being CRUSHED by tyrant right up until the time he used tyrant's orb (tyrant's own power) to further augment his own power.

he also never DID beat champion. that's a forum fallacy. he threatened to leave champ stranded on an asteroid unless champ gave over the gem. champ was NOT ko'd by thanos, nor did thanos do anything more than smack him a couple times to rile him up. thanos knew in that fight he couldn't win a physical battle. and in THAT fight the planet blowing up had NOTHING to do with thanos -- that was all champ.

the other incident you're talking about was his battle with drax, and yes, it appeared the planet they were on blew up in their battle, even though drax was only a 40 tonner at the time. later, to contradict that level of power, thor and thing were able to hold their own physically against him. it wasn't until he started blasting them that he got the upperhand.

100x stronger than thor??? not a single chance in all the hells in all the worlds of comics.

Thanos as a eternal can increase his class 100 strength to a higher level but not no 100x that's pushing it. And losing to Thanos is not bad at all, hell pretty much everybody lose to him except for sky-fathers of course.

Originally posted by leonidas
100x stronger??

you must be kidding. he's admitted to wanting to avoid a physical confrontation with the hulk!



I avoid confrontations with cockroaches and bees. I certainly hope I'm 100x stronger than them.

Originally posted by leonidas

and in the battle you're quoting with tyrant you failed to mention that thanos was being CRUSHED by tyrant right up until the time he used tyrant's orb (tyrant's own power) to further augment his own power.


A decoy orb.... the real one is revealed later. The full power of silver surfer, gladitor, and many others was unable to even move tyrant. Thanos hurt him with A PUNCH.

Originally posted by leonidas

he also never DID beat champion. that's a forum fallacy. he threatened to leave champ stranded on an asteroid unless champ gave over the gem. champ was NOT ko'd by thanos, nor did thanos do anything more than smack him a couple times to rile him up. thanos knew in that fight he couldn't win a physical battle. and in THAT fight the planet blowing up had NOTHING to do with thanos -- that was all champ.


How is that not beating him? He smacked him around and tossed him by his hair, and was not hit a single time, until champion accidentally destroyed the planet. He won the easier and smarter way because -- well, it was easier and smarter. What exactly does that prove?

Originally posted by leonidas

the other incident you're talking about was his battle with drax, and yes, it appeared the planet they were on blew up in their battle, even though drax was only a 40 tonner at the time. later, to contradict that level of power, thor and thing were able to hold their own physically against him. it wasn't until he started blasting them that he got the upperhand.


Thanos has KO'd thing with a flick of his fingers. He's demolished thor on many other occasions. Even if you call surviving and being unable to harm thanos "holding their own" (until thanos blasts both of them and kos them instantly, of course), other apperances dominate.

Btw, it's telling that dominating thor and thing simlutaneously is a supposed "low" showing.

Warrior-Madness Thor smashes to victory.

"100x stronger??

you must be kidding. he's admitted to wanting to avoid a physical confrontation with the hulk!




I avoid confrontations with cockroaches and bees. I certainly hope I'm 100x stronger than them."


Leonidas post its all correct. There is no guy possibly under a skyfather enchanting himself that is -that- stronger than Thor. 100 x its ridiculous.

As for the figth, Hercules obviously loses.

Originally posted by olympian

Leonidas post its all correct. There is no guy possibly under a skyfather enchanting himself that is -that- tstronger than Thor. 100 x its ridiculous.

As for the figth, Hercules obviously loses.

Err, thanos can amp his strength up the same way a skyfather can. He wields cosmic energy at skyfather+ level, imo. The average skyfather is not going to be able to tussle with tyrant or galactus.

100x really isn't that much, from a cosmic perspective. It's like the difference between captain america and the thing. I think that's a fair comparison of the power gap between thor and thanos, based on their fights. Maybe even a conservative comparison.

I meant COMIC perspective, not COSMIC perspective.

Originally posted by slade10
Err, thanos can amp his strength up the same way a skyfather can. He wields cosmic energy at skyfather+ level, imo. The average skyfather is not going to be able to tussle with tyrant or galactus.

100x really isn't that much, from a cosmic perspective. It's like the difference between captain america and the thing. I think that's a fair comparison of the power gap between thor and thanos, based on their fights. Maybe even a conservative comparison.

he wields energy on a level equal to a skyfather?? which skyfather exactly?? not odin, that's for damn sure . . . that display was a great durability showing for thanos, but he never even came close to actually hurting odin or putting odin in danger . . .

you'd go out of your way to avoid a confrontation with a cockroach? that's your business . . .

and no, it was NOT a 'decoy orb'. it was a smaller orb, yes, but filled with power nonetheless. the other (and it was only one among apparently thousands) was simply larger. if thanos could use a SMALL orb and approach tyrant's base power, imagine how tough tyrant is if he elected to use any of the orbs. again, thanos out-thought champ. he did not beat him physically. had it been a physical fight, thanos would have been beat down. he did nothing to harm champ in that fight. had he been as strong as you claim, he certainly wouldn't have needed champ himself to smash the planet -- thanos could have done it himself.

another factual error -- thanos never ko'd thing and thor in that fight. he put thing down and said with a few more such blasts he could take out thor. he never did beat thor. if he really WERE '100x stronger', he'd have polished them and everyone else off -- EASILY!

thor already has strength enough to smash a planet -- and you SERIOUSLY believe thanos is ONE HUNDRED TIMES stronger than him??? have you seen thor with his belt of strenght? and that only DOUBLES his strenght! hulk was somewhat amped by nate grey and fought thanos h2h evenly. you think nate amped him 100x!?

no offense, but that is absolutely ridiculous and you have absolutely ZERO feats to back that up. ZEE--ROOOOOO.

Originally posted by leonidas
he wields energy on a level equal to a skyfather?? which skyfather exactly?? not odin, that's for damn sure . . . that display was a great durability showing for thanos, but he never even came close to actually hurting odin or putting odin in danger . . .


The fight was in the middle of odin's power source. Ask odin to take on thanos in his stronghold, with all his weapons and tech to amp him, and I'm guessing he does about as well as (or worse than) thanos did in asgard.

Originally posted by leonidas

you'd go out of your way to avoid a confrontation with a cockroach? that's your business . . .


Err, unless you're an exterminator, I imagine you tend to avoid smashing bugs as well. It's not fun. And it hurts when a bug bites you. I suppose that means we're all as weak as bugs (or at least comprably weak), by your logic?

Originally posted by leonidas

and no, it was NOT a 'decoy orb'. it was a smaller orb, yes, but filled with power nonetheless. the other (and it was only one among apparently thousands) was simply larger. if thanos could use a SMALL orb and approach tyrant's base power, imagine how tough tyrant is if he elected to use any of the orbs.


Um, tyrant didn't need to touch his orbs to use them. It's not clear if the orb thanos picked up had any real power. Even if it did, it's not clear thanos could leach any of it, especially for physical blows, as (again) tyrant did not have to be in physical contact to use the orbs. They were simply channeling energy tyrant was draining from celestial bodies.

AFAIK, we never see or hear of this orb again. If it's as powerful as you say it is, why is that?

Originally posted by leonidas

again, thanos out-thought champ. he did not beat him physically. had it been a physical fight, thanos would have been beat down. he did nothing to harm champ in that fight. had he been as strong as you claim, he certainly wouldn't have needed champ himself to smash the planet -- thanos could have done it himself.


Are you living in some sort of bizzaro world?

http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img238&image=cha14am.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img233&image=cha22up.jpg

So I guess my intepretation -- that champion is getting knocked around -- is wrong, and that champion is actually just hopping around (horizontal to the ground) and wiggling his neck in odd direcitons for the fun of it?

No, thanos did not ko him. What's your point? Odin did not KO thanos. Galactus did not KO thanos. Indeed, I can't think of anyone who has KO'd thanos. By your logic that proves, NO ONE has ever beaten Thanos.

And why would I exert myself to destroy a planet when: (a) I need to find my target: (b) once I've found him, I can have him do it for me just as easily?

Originally posted by leonidas

thor already has strength enough to smash a planet -- and you SERIOUSLY believe thanos is ONE THOUSAND TIMES stronger than him???


First, I said 100x. 100x = a hundred times.

Second, where has thor shown the power to smash a planet? He's pulled the midgard serpent off of earth. THat doesn't mean he could destroy earth in a blow. I can pull a snake off a rock, but i can't destroy the rock with my fist.

Originally posted by leonidas

hulk was somewhat amped by nate grey and fought thanos h2h evenly. you think nate amped him 1000x!?


You mean the fight where they were destroying the barriers between dimensions with their fists? That's your example of a low feat?

Thanos clone (retconned) vs. Mjolnir
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img239&image=thor8uf.jpg

Zeus vs. Mjolnir
http://img434.imageshack.us/img434/8166/fa5cd6d1jpgorig0hh6ii8ur.jpg
http://img434.imageshack.us/img434/9057/fa5cd6cajpgorig7kg1wk1iy.jpg

Zeus braces himself and prevents mjolnir from hurting him, but can't muster up the magic to prevent it from going back. In contrast, a lowly thanos CLONE sends mjolnir to the ground like an everyday hammer.

This is MYSTICAL energy, which is NOT thanos' forte. And this is a thanos CLONE. Note also that thor was supposedly quite boosted up by odin prior to the thanos (clone) throw. He was at normal power, in contrast, against zeus.

Zeus and odin are thought to be approximately equal.

"Err, thanos can amp his strength up the same way a skyfather can. He wields cosmic energy at skyfather+ level, imo. The average skyfather is not going to be able to tussle with tyrant or galactus. "


Thanos doesnt "tussle" with Galactus. He never did. And the only time he was shown to do it he was using a plot device called the heart of the universe.

The same story where he busted a Celestial btw.

On the other hand, Odin does have universal level feats under his wing and without plot devices. What universal feats under its own powerset Thanos has?

Oh and Thanos its not skyfather level.


"100x really isn't that much, from a cosmic perspective".

Except Thanos never showed to be 100 times stronger than Thor.


"Zeus braces himself and prevents mjolnir from hurting him, but can't muster up the magic to prevent it from going back. In contrast, a lowly thanos CLONE sends mjolnir to the ground like an everyday hammer. "

Your a bit confused. Zeus didnt braced to protect the hammer from hurting him. He -grabbed- the hammer and overcame the enchantment for some moments.

That Thanos clone did nothing of the sort. Like Magneto uses his force fields to protect him from long range attacks, this clone did the same. Hardly a comparation, Zeus feat was way higher.


"Second, where has thor shown the power to smash a planet? He's pulled the midgard serpent off of earth. THat doesn't mean he could destroy earth in a blow. I can pull a snake off a rock, but i can't destroy the rock with my fist"

BrB did it and he has the same powers than Thor.


"The fight was in the middle of odin's power source."


It didnt started in Asgard. And he sure wasent amping there.


"Ask odin to take on thanos in his stronghold, with all his weapons and tech to amp him, and I'm guessing he does about as well as (or worse than) thanos did in asgard. "

Magic, not tech.

Odin didnt went all out in that figth, and Thanos only lasted as much as he did due to insane durability. The battle was pretty clear. Thanos can take skyfather level attacks but doesnt pack enough power to equal or overcome one.

Originally posted by slade10
The fight was in the middle of odin's power source. Ask odin to take on thanos in his stronghold, with all his weapons and tech to amp him, and I'm guessing he does about as well as (or worse than) thanos did in asgard.



Err, unless you're an exterminator, I imagine you tend to avoid smashing bugs as well. It's not fun. And it hurts when a bug bites you. I suppose that means we're all as weak as bugs (or at least comprably weak), by your logic?



Um, tyrant didn't need to touch his orbs to use them. It's not clear if the orb thanos picked up had any real power. Even if it did, it's not clear thanos could leach any of it, especially for physical blows, as (again) tyrant did not have to be in physical contact to use the orbs. They were simply channeling energy tyrant was draining from celestial bodies.

AFAIK, we never see or hear of this orb again. If it's as powerful as you say it is, why is that?



Are you living in some sort of bizzaro world?

http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img238&image=cha14am.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img233&image=cha22up.jpg

So I guess my intepretation -- that champion is getting knocked around -- is wrong, and that champion is actually just hopping around (horizontal to the ground) and wiggling his neck in odd direcitons for the fun of it?

No, thanos did not ko him. What's your point? Odin did not KO thanos. Galactus did not KO thanos. Indeed, I can't think of anyone who has KO'd thanos. By your logic that proves, NO ONE has ever beaten Thanos.

And why would I exert myself to destroy a planet when: (a) I need to find my target: (b) once I've found him, I can have him do it for me just as easily?



First, I said 100x. 100x = a hundred times.

Second, where has thor shown the power to smash a planet? He's pulled the midgard serpent off of earth. THat doesn't mean he could destroy earth in a blow. I can pull a snake off a rock, but i can't destroy the rock with my fist.



You mean the fight where they were destroying the barriers between dimensions with their fists? That's your example of a low feat?

speaking of bizarro . . .

1. prove odin gets more power by being in asgard. i didn't ask for your opinion, i asked for proof.

2. thanos punched champion. and . . . you were wholly inaccurate in your statement regarding the fight -- or at least deliberately misleading. thanos did NOTHING to champ to hurt him. he pestered him to anger him because he knew he could not -- through force -- take the gem. i've seen spiderman deck superman as well, does that mean spidey=superman, or spidey>superman?? even using your own description, you're saying thor is to thanos as cap is to thing?? so you're saying that even a mild PUNCH from thanos to thor could . . . break thor's neck?? kill him??? ludicrous.

3. the orb had no power, eh? well, why don't you show a picture of him struggling to reach for it as he was getting his ass beat down, then, show a pic after when he suddenly miraculously heals and gets back into the fight. i can show you if you don't have the scans . . . we've ALSO never seen tyrant since then, let alone the orb. he's supposedly biding his time, gather his power to get revenge on galactus. he didn't NEED to use anymore power than he did to beat thanos. why would he use the orbs?

4. odin WOULD have ko'd thanos. galactus CERTAINLY would have. he smashed his shield and thanos was a crumpled heap on the floor in front of him.


5. olympian already mentioned the bill incident and herc and thor also sent a planet spiralling out of orbit during an ARMWRESTLE!

6. destroying barriers between dimensions? huh? anyway, so it sounds like you ARE saying nate amped hulk up a 100x??? course, that was also a thanos clone i think, as most have been. even the 'all powerful one' that got the tears of tendali and that thor DID KO, was later said to be a clone.

now, let's recap. thor ahs sent a planet spiralling out of orbit with herc. bill has destroyed a planet and is =< thor. thanos is NOT at skyfather level. galactus nearly ko'd him with a shot while thor (NOT odin) has driven galactus off by himself.

and of course, you never once adressed my main point: name one single feat that would support your argument that thanos is 100x stronger than thor. name a feat he's accomplished that is greater than THOR'S high end feats!! you can't. yet you say he's 100x stronger. laughable. until you find your non-existent proof, don't bother debating it. you can have your opinion, that's fine. not a single person with an ounce of sense will agree with it, and it will be wrong, but you're entitled to it. nothing you can say -- or more importantly -- that you can show will prove your words. so why debate this further.

Originally posted by olympian


Thanos doesnt "tussle" with Galactus. He never did. And the only time he was shown to do it he was using a plot device called the heart of the universe.

The same story where he busted a Celestial btw.


1. Never tussled with galactus? There's an entire series where they fight. And galactus is said to be "well-fed." Here's a pic:

http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img158&image=galactus14jn.jpg

Loses eventually, but big G doesn't look in great shape either at the end of the fight.

2. When has magneto blocked mjolnir, lol? Thor has drained mag's shield, and many similar energy fields, with ease.

If you didn't realize it, mjolnir has an enchantment by Odin that requires it to return to thor's hand. It's also a massively powerful artificat. A Thanos CLONE not only stopped it dead in the air, but also canceled its enchantment -- something zeus was unable to do.

3. Beta ray bill has destroyed a planet? I'd like to see this.

4. Odin wasn't in asgard? Was that a McDonald's disguised as Asgard? And didn't go "all out"? what comic are you reading? Thanos pushed back odin's blast and nearly took gungnir from odin's hand. I'm sure Odin "let him" do that, huh?

On neutral ground, I say thanos dusts odin. When has Odin shown offensive firepower commensurate to thanos' blasting galactus to the ground? Or going toe-to-toe to tyrant? HIs showing against the celestials is indicative of his power level outside of asgard -- with an enormous amount of planning, no less.

Thanos is to the eternals as odin is the asgardians. Except eternals are more powerful than asgardians....

1. Odin has stated his power comes from asgard on multiple occasions. He has also been "weakened" when others have broken his connection to his realm as ruler, e.g. Loki on a few occasions.

Here is a link:

http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/index.php/Odin

This is not 100% certain because Odin has too few appearances, and the apperances he does have are almost always in asgard. But it is consistent with marvel's treatment of rules of virtually every other dimension. When a ruler of a dimension is in his own realm, his powers increase to near-omnipotence.

2. What did I say about the champion fight that was "wholly inaccurate"? I said he beat champion with the power gem. I think I also said that he hurt him. I don't think either proposition is particularly controversial.

If Thanos has 100x thor's strength, that does not necessarily mean he can break thor's neck in 1 blow. First, this is a comic, and you see people like batman and wolverine receiving blows from people literally millions of times stronger than them. And they get up fine afterwards. Second, strength and durability are different issues entirely. And when you get up into thor+ durability range, strength is usually used only to KO, not to break people's necks.

3. Tyrant did not disappear after thanos took the orb. The series continues on until morg gets the nullifier and blasts him. Where are you getting this nonsense? I don't have the scans because I don't have a scanner, or the comic at hand. If you're so certain that this orb boosted his strength immensely, then prove it. I'm the one who's posted scans -- you've just made wild assertions.

4. Odin would have ko'd thanos? You seem pretty certain of that, given that he got up from his best blast seemingly unharmed.

Point to a single time thanos has been KO'd by ANYONE. And it's not as if he's fighting lightweights.

That sort of status is generally reserved for skyfather+ beings, of which thanos is one.

5. Thor drove off a STARVING galactus with a godblast. This tells us what about thor's physical strength?

6. I've already named numerous feats suggesting that thanos is vastly stronger than thor. Wrestling with multiple thor level heros in physical battles and coming out on top easily. Hurting Tyrant with a punch, when numerous star-destroying-level blasts could not even move him. Destroying a planet accidentally in a fistfight with drax. Knocking around warrior madness thor with a power gem, when 8 heros of thor-level strength could not even touch him. KO'ing surfer with a few blows. There are countless others.

Every feat you cite evidencing thanos' supposed weakness is ridiculous. Beating thing and thor with ease? Getting an amped up hulk to smash through a dimension in a fist fight? These are supposed to prove me wrong? Please....

The fact is, for anyone to be able to do what thanos has done to the infinity watch, to herald teams, to the JLA in crossover, he must be VASTLY stronger than each one individually. You need to be able to take them out fast, and take punishment while you're at it. This is exactly what thanos has done on every occassion he's faced a thor level hero.

Btw, let's look at these tyrant scans.

http://img194.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img194&image=tyrant78hy.jpg
http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img162&image=tyrant83ga.jpg

I don't see him using that orb in either scan. And it's notable that throughout this fight, tyrant seems not to care at all about the orb, despite the fact that he's getting hurt by thanos at the start of the fight. He gets angry that thanos has "pilfered" him, but then another room is shown with a massively larger orb, and perhaps as you said, thousands of other orbs. There's no indication that thanos can use the power, and he does not "instantly heal" when he gets it. In fact, he hasn't even been harmed when he picks the orb back up.

Finally, there's no discussion of what happened to thanos' orb throughout the rest of the series. If this is such a powerful artificat, why wouldn't marvel mention it again somewhere?

Oh and as for the arm wrestling with herc feat, you mean this?

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8595/hercvsthor017lj.jpg
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6530/hercvsthor029mh.jpg

Looks more like a table than a planet to me...

As for brb destroying planets, if you're referring to the stormbreaker saga, that's hardly a planet destroying feat. Stardust and galactus destroyed the planet while eating it.

"1. Never tussled with galactus? There's an entire series where they fight. And galactus is said to be "well-fed." Here's a pic:

http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?...alactus14jn.jpg

Loses eventually, but big G doesn't look in great shape either at the end of the fight."


First of all thats not the entire figth. Second, i already adressed that one. That hapenned in Thanos: The End, the same story where he defeat the entire Marvel Universe wielding the Heart of the Universe and where he busted a Celestial -point blank-.


"2. When has magneto blocked mjolnir, lol? Thor has drained mag's shield, and many similar energy fields, with ease"


And on another ocassions when figthing the Avengers, Mags shieds have protected him from Mjolnir to no effect from the later.


"If you didn't realize it, mjolnir has an enchantment by Odin that requires it to return to thor's hand. "


Correct.


"It's also a massively powerful artificat. A Thanos CLONE not only stopped it dead in the air, but also canceled its enchantment -- something zeus was unable to do."




The page you posted shows otherwise. He uses a force field. -Where- did he canceled the enchantment? He merely avoied the hammer hitting him.

Zeus was able to do it yes. Anyone with eyes can see the scan. Unlike the clone he -grabbed it-, he didnt avoied it. Talking about overrating here.


"3. Beta ray bill has destroyed a planet? I'd like to see this."


Stormbreaker saga by Oeming.


"4. Odin wasn't in asgard? Was that a McDonald's disguised as Asgard? And didn't go "all out"? what comic are you reading? Thanos pushed back odin's blast and nearly took gungnir from odin's hand. I'm sure Odin "let him" do that, huh?"


The Brifost Bridge isent IN Asgard, chump.

The times Odin has gone all out it was against beings like Surtur and Seth and in all those, there wer second effects across the Universe.

And taking Gungir out of Odins hand its scretching. You saw him do that? Give me a break. He fougth yes to no avail.


"On neutral ground, I say thanos dusts odin."


I dont use this alot but: LoL.


"When has Odin shown offensive firepower commensurate to thanos' blasting galactus to the ground? Or going toe-to-toe to tyrant? HIs showing against the celestials is indicative of his power level outside of asgard -- with an enormous amount of planning, no less. "


The question should be more: When has Thanos -ever- had feats on Odins level, without plot devices ? :

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/694/odinseth40xl4ru.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6769/skyfatherpower3dp.jpg

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1047/skyfatherpower010rn.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4224/skyfatherpower021bo.jpg

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/355/odinseth34cu.jpg

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/355/odinseth34cu.jpg


"1. Odin has stated his power comes from asgard on multiple occasions. He has also been "weakened" when others have broken his connection to his realm as ruler, e.g. Loki on a few occasions. "


Odin in comics has stated that he can draw more power from Asgard if -needed-. Not that out of it he has none. Using sites or handbooks doesnt help your case. Same with Zeus and other skyfathers.


"When a ruler of a dimension is in his own realm, his powers increase to near-omnipotence."


Obviously. If he choses to use it all. Odin btw has you can see in the scans i provided has fought and use his might outside of Asgard. Few appearances? Yeah he just showed up practically in every Thor issue run and the first exceeded the issue # 500...


"If Thanos has 100x thor's strength, that does not necessarily mean he can break thor's neck in 1 blow. First, this is a comic, and you see people like batman and wolverine receiving blows from people literally millions of times stronger than them"


And this is where your logic is flawed. EVEN in comics, Batman doesnt take blows from way stronger characters without a plot device. Wolverine OTOH already has two. Durability in form of a adamantium skeleton AND a insane healing factor. That still doesnt stop him to get ko sometimes.


"That sort of status is generally reserved for skyfather+ beings, of which thanos is one. "


Thanos isent a skyfather+ being. I noticed you said going toe to toe with Tyrant. That implies equalty. You cant have that when your losing a figth. Helding your own would be more appropiate.

Against Odin it was pretty clear. He had the durability and damage soak ability to take skyfather level blasts but -no- raw power to seriously hurt a skyfather oponnent. As you can see Odin wasent nearly as hurt and battered as Thanos was.


"5. Thor drove off a STARVING galactus with a godblast. This tells us what about thor's physical strength?"

No. It tells us about his power.


"6. I've already named numerous feats suggesting that thanos is vastly stronger than thor"

And he -is- considerably stronger. Just not 100x times more. I havent seen the evidence for that.


"Oh and as for the arm wrestling with herc feat, you mean this?"

No, he meant this:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7170/planetpressure6vr.jpg

generating enough pressure to knock Earth out of orbit after said pressure smashed the mountain top where they wer, and still going at it.


"As for brb destroying planets, if you're referring to the stormbreaker saga, that's hardly a planet destroying feat. Stardust and galactus destroyed the planet while eating it"


Your out of your mind. He busted a planet while hitting Stardust. Talking about overrating a force field feat as > grabbing Mjolnir and downplaying a clear planet busting feat.

It's really hard to read your posts like that. Can you format the quotes or just leave them out?

1. No thanos blasting galactus to the ground did not happen in The End. And Thanos does not have the hotu. that pic is from "the hunger" storyline. In that pic he is unboosted. And galactus says that he is "well fed."

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/hungerthanos.htm

2. Let's look at the pic vs odin:

http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img236&image=odin108cb.jpg

Thanos is just pushing up against a full-on blast from odin, and he grabs onto gungnir. That is exactly what I said. You, for some reason, want to deny it.

Note taht there is no counter blast; just physical effort. And this is after they've been fighting for a while, asgard has taken some damage, and as has odin (via a blast), so you can't say odin is pulling punches.

Moreover consider -- every other character odin blasts in this fight -- including many thor level heros -- is 1-shotted. Thanos, in contrast, actually has the physical strength to PUSH BACK UP AGAINST IT. (and this is presumably after odin has amped up his power levels considerably, since they'd been fighting for a few pages already, and odin had taken a shot)

No, the Bifrost Bridge is not inside of asgard. It's right next to it. And I didn't say that odin was power-less without asgard. Presumably, he'd be at least as powerful as an average asgardian. But it's clear that odin boosted with power from asgard is far more powerful than odin without it.

3. Batman doesn't take blows without plot devices? He's been punched by a bloodlusted superman on a number of occasions. He gets ko'd but is otherwise fine. How is that a "plot device"? It's a punch, nothign less nothing more. And superman is millions, trillions of times stronger than batman.

Or I guess we're all wrong, and in fact superman is actually only a couple times stronger than batman? Perhaps 1-2 ton range?

4. As for "toe to toe vs tyrant", let's look at the scans of the fight.

http://img194.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img194&image=tyrant78hy.jpg
http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img162&image=tyrant83ga.jpg

It's a ridiculous feat of power, but I think you can't argue otherwise. Thanos actually has the upper hand at one point. I'd say "toe to toe" is a fair description.

5. Post the scan of brb. You might be right, but I don't remember it. Regardless, BRB has been shown to be vastly inferior to thanos on every occassion. Warrior madness fight, tyrant fight. His attacks do nothing, and he gets 1-shooted, by opponents thanos can actually knock around.

I'd say difference between:

Doing nothing

and

Knocking around

is around 100x. A child can hurt, and possibly even kill, an nfl lineman who can press 10x more weight. You have to get into the 100x range or more before strength differences can explain an immunity-harm gap.

Odin, galactus, tyrant... all probably thousands, maybe millions or trillions (in the latter two cases) more powerful than thor. And these are the only tyeps of enemies thanos has problems with. Even if you say thanos is considerably weaker than all 3 (clear for the latter two), that still leaves a range between 2x and 1000+x. Based on the way thanos consistently and effortlessly dusts thor-level heros, I think 100x is a reasonable estimate.

Originally posted by olympian
"1. Never tussled with galactus? There's an entire series where they fight. And galactus is said to be "well-fed." Here's a pic:

http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?...alactus14jn.jpg

Loses eventually, but big G doesn't look in great shape either at the end of the fight."


First of all thats not the entire figth. Second, i already adressed that one. That hapenned in Thanos: The End, the same story where he defeat the entire Marvel Universe wielding the Heart of the Universe and where he busted a Celestial -point blank-.


"2. When has magneto blocked mjolnir, lol? Thor has drained mag's shield, and many similar energy fields, with ease"


And on another ocassions when figthing the Avengers, Mags shieds have protected him from Mjolnir to no effect from the later.


"If you didn't realize it, mjolnir has an enchantment by Odin that requires it to return to thor's hand. "


Correct.


"It's also a massively powerful artificat. A Thanos CLONE not only stopped it dead in the air, but also canceled its enchantment -- something zeus was unable to do."




The page you posted shows otherwise. He uses a force field. -Where- did he canceled the enchantment? He merely avoied the hammer hitting him.

Zeus was able to do it yes. Anyone with eyes can see the scan. Unlike the clone he -grabbed it-, he didnt avoied it. Talking about overrating here.


"3. Beta ray bill has destroyed a planet? I'd like to see this."


Stormbreaker saga by Oeming.


"4. Odin wasn't in asgard? Was that a McDonald's disguised as Asgard? And didn't go "all out"? what comic are you reading? Thanos pushed back odin's blast and nearly took gungnir from odin's hand. I'm sure Odin "let him" do that, huh?"


The Brifost Bridge isent IN Asgard, chump.

The times Odin has gone all out it was against beings like Surtur and Seth and in all those, there wer second effects across the Universe.

And taking Gungir out of Odins hand its scretching. You saw him do that? Give me a break. He fougth yes to no avail.


"On neutral ground, I say thanos dusts odin."


I dont use this alot but: LoL.


"When has Odin shown offensive firepower commensurate to thanos' blasting galactus to the ground? Or going toe-to-toe to tyrant? HIs showing against the celestials is indicative of his power level outside of asgard -- with an enormous amount of planning, no less. "


The question should be more: When has Thanos -ever- had feats on Odins level, without plot devices ? :

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/694/odinseth40xl4ru.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6769/skyfatherpower3dp.jpg

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1047/skyfatherpower010rn.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4224/skyfatherpower021bo.jpg

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/355/odinseth34cu.jpg

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/355/odinseth34cu.jpg


"1. Odin has stated his power comes from asgard on multiple occasions. He has also been "weakened" when others have broken his connection to his realm as ruler, e.g. Loki on a few occasions. "


Odin in comics has stated that he can draw more power from Asgard if -needed-. Not that out of it he has none. Using sites or handbooks doesnt help your case. Same with Zeus and other skyfathers.


"When a ruler of a dimension is in his own realm, his powers increase to near-omnipotence."


Obviously. If he choses to use it all. Odin btw has you can see in the scans i provided has fought and use his might outside of Asgard. Few appearances? Yeah he just showed up practically in every Thor issue run and the first exceeded the issue # 500...


"If Thanos has 100x thor's strength, that does not necessarily mean he can break thor's neck in 1 blow. First, this is a comic, and you see people like batman and wolverine receiving blows from people literally millions of times stronger than them"


And this is where your logic is flawed. EVEN in comics, Batman doesnt take blows from way stronger characters without a plot device. Wolverine OTOH already has two. Durability in form of a adamantium skeleton AND a insane healing factor. That still doesnt stop him to get ko sometimes.


"That sort of status is generally reserved for skyfather+ beings, of which thanos is one. "


Thanos isent a skyfather+ being. I noticed you said going toe to toe with Tyrant. That implies equalty. You cant have that when your losing a figth. Helding your own would be more appropiate.

Against Odin it was pretty clear. He had the durability and damage soak ability to take skyfather level blasts but -no- raw power to seriously hurt a skyfather oponnent. As you can see Odin wasent nearly as hurt and battered as Thanos was.


"5. Thor drove off a STARVING galactus with a godblast. This tells us what about thor's physical strength?"

No. It tells us about his power.


"6. I've already named numerous feats suggesting that thanos is vastly stronger than thor"

And he -is- considerably stronger. Just not 100x times more. I havent seen the evidence for that.


"Oh and as for the arm wrestling with herc feat, you mean this?"

No, he meant this:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7170/planetpressure6vr.jpg

generating enough pressure to knock Earth out of orbit after said pressure smashed the mountain top where they wer, and still going at it.


"As for brb destroying planets, if you're referring to the stormbreaker saga, that's hardly a planet destroying feat. Stardust and galactus destroyed the planet while eating it"


Your out of your mind. He busted a planet while hitting Stardust. Talking about overrating a force field feat as > grabbing Mjolnir and downplaying a clear planet busting feat.

nice olly. and thanks for dragging out that armwrestling scan. that'd have been a pain to find. we don't find ourselves on the same side often. good to see it CAN happen at times . . .

personally, i'm not even sure about the 'considerably stronger' label you pinned on him. depends on what you consider 'considerably stronger', i suppose. stronger, yes. twice as strong? hmm, i don't know i'd go even THAT far. thor is about as strong as anyone in comics. to say someone is double his strength is really saying something. if he had on his belt of strength you think he could battle thanos h2h evenly? i think so. in the thanos v superman thread, no one one thanos's side could even give clear evidence that thanos is definitely stronger than superman! and that thread went on for a long time . . .

i'll post some scans to show some of slade's nonsense later today.

100x stronger? so thor is high cl100. thanos is what, high class 10000???

ridiculous.

Originally posted by leonidas
nice olly. and thanks for dragging out that armwrestling scan. that'd have been a pain to find. we don't find ourselves on the same side often. good to see it CAN happen at times . . .

personally, i'm not even sure about the 'considerably stronger' label you pinned on him. depends on what you consider 'considerably stronger', i suppose. stronger, yes. twice as strong? hmm, i don't know i'd go even THAT far. thor is about as strong as anyone in comics. to say someone is double his strength is really saying something. if he had on his belt of strength you think he could battle thanos h2h evenly? i think so. in the thanos v superman thread, no one one thanos's side could even give clear evidence that thanos is definitely stronger than superman! and that thread went on for a long time . . .

i'll post some scans to show some of slade's nonsense later today.

100x stronger? so thor is high cl100. thanos is what, high class 10000???

ridiculous.

So your argument amounts to:

thor is strong, therefore thanos cannot be much stronger.

Convinced me!

Oh and to bring this back to topic:

power gem > belt of strength

And it's not even a close comparison. Given that thanos was getting the better of thor with the power gem (AND warrior madness), your position is quite absurd.

Originally posted by slade10
Oh and to bring this back to topic:

power gem > belt of strength

And it's not even a close comparison. Given that thanos was getting the better of thor with the power gem (AND warrior madness), your position is quite absurd.

proof? tell me something that a power gem wielder has done that someone without hasn't done? please, be my guest.

'fraid there's only one absurd stance around here . . .

"http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?...e=odin108cb.jpg

Thanos is just pushing up against a full-on blast from odin, and he grabs onto gungnir. That is exactly what I said. You, for some reason, want to deny it. "


Oly- You said he almost took Gungir out of Odins hand. Where was that "almost"? He wrestles after he grabs the weapon but where is the indication from Odins part he was sucedding in taking it from him?


- - -


"No, the Bifrost Bridge is not inside of asgard. It's right next to it. And I didn't say that odin was power-less without asgard. Presumably, he'd be at least as powerful as an average asgardian. But it's clear that odin boosted with power from asgard is far more powerful than odin without it. "


Oly- And your still wrong. Out of Asgard Odin its still skyfather level. I already posted the scans of him doing things beyond what Thanos has ever done without a plot device like the HOTU or the IG. And -out- of his realm.


- - -


"Batman doesn't take blows without plot devices? He's been punched by a bloodlusted superman on a number of occasions. He gets ko'd but is otherwise fine. How is that a "plot device"? It's a punch, nothign less nothing more. And superman is millions, trillions of times stronger than batman. "


Olympian- Yeah. He -only- uses the Kryptonyte rings OR an armour, or some other plot device that happens to give him an advantage. Another case its obviously like in Lex Luthor`s mini where Superman beats on Batman on an alley while -holding back-.

An encounter where Kal goes "all out" and beats on Batman and this one without any protection survives, its simply bad writting. And looking at it, how many examples of that are out there?


- - -


"5. Post the scan of brb. You might be right, but I don't remember it. Regardless, BRB has been shown to be vastly inferior to thanos on every occassion. Warrior madness fight, tyrant fight. His attacks do nothing, and he gets 1-shooted, by opponents thanos can actually knock around."


Oly- In this page:

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=93025&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=690

And about the Galactus figth, Yes It wasent the "Thanos: the End". My mistake, the artist being probably the same led me in error. But lets see the whole figth shall we? Follow the page until the end to see the whole thing:

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=93025&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=630

The one thing in common? Doesnt matter how much of a figth Thanos puts on, hes outclassed. And -he knows it-. Odin is closer by feats and battles to Galactus than Thanos will ever be. Thanos puts a good figth but thats about it. You can also find the whole Infinity Watch+Thanos vs Odin battle in that thread. Go to the first page where you have a resume of all figths on each page.


- - -


"nice olly. and thanks for dragging out that armwrestling scan. that'd have been a pain to find. we don't find ourselves on the same side often. good to see it CAN happen at times ."

Oly- No problem. I always have those around.


- - -


"personally, i'm not even sure about the 'considerably stronger' label you pinned on him. depends on what you consider 'considerably stronger', i suppose. stronger, yes. twice as strong? hmm, i don't know i'd go even THAT"


Oly- I dont use numbers. Thanos its below skyfather level in pretty much all regards. That makes him however above the Top tier and Herald level by a good margin. I use "considerably" because i want to make sure for anyone whos reading that there is a distinction between those classes.

About how Thanos would fair against Thor with the belt of strenght, im not sure.

Originally posted by slade10
So your argument amounts to:

thor is strong, therefore thanos cannot be much stronger.

Convinced me! Originally posted by slade10
So your argument amounts to:

thor is strong, therefore thanos cannot be much stronger.

Convinced me!

er, yah, that's what i've been trying to say . . .

it goes more like this -- thanos greatest strength feat is shattering a planet in battle with drax. thor has sent a planet out of orbit by ARMWRESTLING. bill smashed a planet by driving a stake through stardust. gladiator has smashed a planet. is HE 100x stronger than thor too? so it's more like: thor's strength feats are every bit as impressive as thanos's strength feats. you keep saying thanos beats a bunch of thor level guys 'easily' all at the same time. he bonked a couple heads together so he's 100x stronger than them?? again, ludicrous. all these 'other times' you allude to constantly -- any examples of said times?

let's point out your errors so far . . .

1. you were factually wrong when you said thanos 'beat' champ. he got the gem from champ so he accomplished his goal, but he did not 'beat him', at least not in the traditional KO sense of the word. he's smarter than champ, he got in a couple punches but fer crying out loud ss has KO'D champ WHILE he had the gem. yet thanos needed to use trickery to get it? that doesn't really support your case . . .

2. you said thanos beat thing and thor. if thanos was 100x stronger, than thor, he'd barely notice ben. the scan below seems to suggest he DOES notice him . . . only his eye blasts give him the advantage.

3. the battle with odin took place on bifrost which is the TRANSITION point between asgard and earth -- it is not IN asgard. it carried into asgard but nothing indicates odin suddenly became 'more powerful' when he stepped through its walls. you've also admitted to having no proof about odin being more powerful in asgard, only speculation so that point can be tossed out for lack of evidence. you also keep comparing how other characters do against someone compared to how thanos does. thanos IS more powerful than top tier guys. but he is NOT 100x stronger than thor. scan below shows thanos struggling to stand and being ready to continue, but odin being completely undamaged. a great durability showing for thanos, but he did not put odin in any danger whatsoever. thor once fought zeus for MONTHS. who had the better showing against a skyfather?

4. you did NOT say bats takes bloodlusted punches from superman without plot devices, did you . . .? if that IS what you are implying, end the discussion, step away from the computer and take the toaster into the tub . . .

5. thanos on his own was getting OWNED by tyrant. it wasn't until he had the orb that things changed. even in that scan you showed he's HOLDING the orb. my scan shows what happened before he got the orb, and that he is desperate to reach it. i'm sure it was coincidence that when he got it the fight became more even . . .

6. power gem>belt of strength. maybe, but you have no proof. prof hulk stalemated drax while he had it. herc stalemated drax while he had it. champ blew up a planet, but whoopee. who hasn't. so . . . what exactly has the power gem done again . . .? power gem=overrated. there wasn't even any definitive proof thor accessed its power while fighting thanos. he throttled bill and ss and warlock WITHOUT it. warlock, whom thanos fears, incidentally . . . what proof is there that thor could access any power from the gem?

7. thanos does NOT tussle with galactus. one shot, force field destroyed, thanos left crumpled and laying. second would have killed him. thor chased off g with a single godforce blast. g was 'starving'? proof? when g was at 'the weakest he had ever been,' it took the keeper to take him down!

so, here are some scans. first the ending of the odin fight: thanos struggling to rise, odin unharmed. recall thor once battled zeus for MONTHS. whose showing was better . . .?

thanos PRE-orb. his attack doing nothing to tyrant:

this is ALSO PRE-orb. oh yeah, here's doing REAL well. clearly a near match for tyrant . . . reaches for the orb because he's getting OWNED . . .

oops, HERE he reaches for the orb. small difference in how the fight is going . . . coincidence, of course. the orb clearly had no impact on thanos's power level and he would have done just fine without it . . .

here is thanos 'EASILY' beating down thing and thor . . .

and here is what he needed to do to change the tide. note how stupid thor is--doesn't even raise his hammer. a 'few more such blasts' would take thor down.

IF thor continued to fight like a moron and not use his hammer . . . either way didn't look too 'easy' to me . . .

so, what do we know:

thanos is stronger and more durable than thor. thanos below skyfather and WAY below tyrant and galactus. thanos has no strength feats that are more impressive than thor's but based on his battles i will certainly admit he is stronger, but not by any quantifiable amount, and CERTAINLY not 100x stronger. you STILL never given evidence -- nor can you -- to support such a ludicrous claim. warrior mad thor easily ko'd ss AND warlock. thanos has also beaten down ss and is afraid of warlock. thor fought drax (with gem) AND the rest of the watch to a virtual standstill BEFORE he had the gem. and there is no evidence at all warrior thor is 10x stronger than regular thor.

how again is it that thanos is 100x stronger?

Response to Ol:

1. Look, if that's not "almost" grabbing it, I don't know what is. Odin is blasting him and thanos pushes through it like a gentle tide and they grabs a hold of the spear.

2. I didn't say he wasn't a skyfather outside of asgard. I said he draws power from asgard, and it only makes sense (as is true of rulers of every other dimension -- dormammu, mephisto, various pocket dimension rulers) for him to be amped up considerably in his own dimension. If nothing else, he would have a tools/turf advantage -- which is considerable, given the amount of magic/tech these types can get a hold of.

3. Odin took a thousand years prep and did not manage to damage a celestial, even with the help of numerous other skyfathers. Thanos smashed galactus into the ground and burned off his helmet with zero prep simply with a blast from his hands. Celestial < tyrant < well-fed galactus. Odin is a a powerful dude, but he doesn't do too well against cosmic entities. Thanos, on the other hand, has made a living off beating cosmic entities. How many times has Odin taken control of the universe?

4. Do you read any justice league appearances? Or ANY comics with characters with human-level durability and strength? Batman and others with approximately human-level durability (captain america, nightwing, virtually every mutant without durability powers) are constantly getting hit by people tens, hundreds, or even millions of times stronger than they are. Call all of those "bad writing" -- I call them comics, where reality's rules don't necessarily apply. (surprise!)

5. As for brb

a. He's using stormbreaker (notice how he invokes it) -- not a pure strength feat.

b. The "planet" is about 100 times taller than bill and doesn't even have a noticeable topography/atmosphere. Notice that the energy trail is only a tad bit larger than bill. Notice that the energy trail is quite large relative to the "planet." That's a tiny moon or asteroid -- not a planet. The only planet that was destroyed in that story was the one galactus ate.

6. I didn't say thanos beat galactus. I did say that was a better showing against a well-fed galactus (this is in narrative, so it's not debatable) than I have ever seen.

Originally posted by slade10
Response to Ol:

6. I didn't say thanos beat galactus. I did say that was a better showing against a well-fed galactus (this is in narrative, so it's not debatable) than I have ever seen.

never saw him fight inbetweener then, eh . . .?

To leo:

For someone who keeps charging others with being "factually wrong", you sure have a knack for making things up.

1. Thanos had the orb even before the fight started. That first scan does not show thanos blasting tyrant "without the orb."

Your best case is made by the scan after he drops it. He picks it up and blasts him with it. Of course, thereafter he strangely stops using it, and starts hitting tyrant with his fists (both with the orb hand and with the non-orb hand -- no energy trail). And there is no narrative to indicate the orb is powering him. Thanos talks about the power of the orb prior to stealing it, but no indication that he ever used it, or that it had any real power. Indeed, the only thing we ever learn about the orb is AFTER that fight, when a much larger orb is revealed, along with many many other smaller orbs.

My interpretation is that this scene was supposed to indicate that that orb was a decoy, or at least insignificantly powerful (even if thanos could access the power) -- the large orb was the REAL power source. Your explanation is, apparently, that that scene was completely irrelevant and should be ignored, and that the tiny orb really did have tyrant's power.

Notably, you have still failed to explain why this orb has never appeared again in any comic, if it is such a powerful artifact. You have also failed to explain why tyrant does not seem particularly concerned about the orb when he sees that thanos has it.

In any event, you have made things up already on two occasions (that thanos did not have the orb at the start of the fight, and that tyrant "disappears" after the fight -- which is utterly laughable considering he went on to almost destroy the universe). I have made nothing up. And am getting tired of your charges of "factual error."

2. I wasn't "factually wrong" to say Thanos beat Champion. You define "beat" as KO. I think this is absurd because, for example, it leads one to the conclusion that thanos himself has never been beaten. Engaging someone in a physical battle, knocking them around, and then completely immobilizing them, is a victory in my mind. In fact, it was a much more decisive victory than most KOs, as Thanos was not even harmed in the process and barely expended any effort.

If you have a different definition of "beat" -- fine. You can define "beat" as "gave him a bouquet of roses" for all I care. But then our dispute is not about factual accuracy. It's about your odd and contorted use of the English language.

3. On your claim that 100x strength means that thanos "would not notice him": Maybe he'd notice him. Maybe he wouldn't.

I am considerably more than 100x the strength of a bug. Yet I notice them, and (i hate to admit) am a little wary of some of them. I don't particularly like cockroaches or bees, especially when they are in swarms.

Now of course, this is comic world. The world where wolverine beat lobo, where spider man beat firelord, and where batman beats everyone. Did thor and thing get a couple blows in? Yes, by double teaming him and hitting him in the back. Does that prove that thanos is approximately thor/thing's equal? No. In a direct, 1on1 confrontation, he has KO'd the thing (who has considerably more durability than strength) with a flick of his fingers. And he has wrestled and beat multiple thor-level heros on other occasions with apparent ease.

The fact that he got hit in the back a few times should not be decisive. When a roach or bee stings me in the back of my neck, it still hurts, no matter how many times I recite to myself, "I'm 1000x stronger than these bugs... they can't hurt me!!!"

4. I never said I had definitive proof Odin was powered up in Asgard. I did say it only makes sense, given that Asgard is his primary power source, and given that, IIRC, breaks in his connection to Asgard (in some Loki storylines) have weakened him in the past. As I posted previously, this is true in the marvel universe of the ruler of virtually every other dimension. When they are in their dimension, they are nearly omnipotent. Why would it be different for Odin?

5. You think the power gem, the physical manifestation of a fundamental force of the universe, and one of the ingredients to the infinity gaunlet, is weaker than an asgardian trinket? Please. Read comics where this gem appears. It invariably is said to grant "infinite power" or "unlimited strength" or something along those lines.

Drax has certainly lost with the power gem. That's how warrior madness thor got it, after all. But drax is not exaclty the most intelligent fighter in the universe. And he usually loses because he loses the gem, not because he is bested in strength. I am only faintly recalling a drax/hulk power gem fight, so you'll have to refresh my memory.

Originally posted by leonidas
never saw him fight inbetweener then, eh . . .?

You're comparing thanos to in-betweener now?

If it wasn't obvious contextually, I meant that I've never seen a better showing from a non-cosmic entity. Obviously, thanos with infinity gauntlet did better against galactus than thanos in the hunger storyline.

I've certaintly never seen a skyfather level entity do something like that to galactus. Most of them just get eaten.

This is indicative of the power level I've seen of drax with gem:

KO'ing champion with one punch
http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc89&image=02bf2_lastscan16.jpg

It's worth noting, moreover, that drax supposedly has tapped the gem in a very limited fashion, given his intellectual limitations.

Other power gem wielders have been similarly insane. Always taking on numerous thor level heros and toasting them. You think thor normal power (or with belt of strength) could dust the infinity watch, brb, and dr. strange without a scratch? please....

<<Your best case is made by the scan after he drops it. He picks it up and blasts him with it. Of course, thereafter he strangely stops using it, and starts hitting tyrant with his fists (both with the orb hand and with the non-orb hand -- no energy trail). And there is no narrative to indicate the orb is powering him. Thanos talks about the power of the orb prior to stealing it, but no indication that he ever used it, or that it had any real power. Indeed, the only thing we ever learn about the orb is AFTER that fight, when a much larger orb is revealed, along with many many other smaller orbs. >>

1. you're correct about one thing: thanos DID have it at the start. but he never employed it before then. unless you're saying the there was no difference between the blast he first shot and the one he fired through the orb . . . and i'll stick to my interpretation that he was drawing power from the orb to fight tyrant. there were thousands of orbs at the end. ALL decoys?? amid all his machines?? silly. they were places to store power. he siphoned power from ss and glads et al in the previous (prior?) ss arc. if he did come back, i'm curious: which arc was it in? and of course he wouldn't have cared that thanos had the orb -- he had thousands, some apparently much larger. thanos was clearly no threat to him.

at the end of that ltd arc, the ss arc, it is said he is biding his time and gathering his power. seems reasonable to think he is busy collecting all the power he can for a confrontation with galactus. that's why he saves the orb/s and doesn't use them -- doesn't want to squander them. as for it being a 'powerful artifact': it wasn't -- that was the point, not relative to tyrant and the other orbs he has. but it DID boost thanos's powers, certainly magnifying his blast. if it could do THAT, why wouldn't it be able to augment his strength?

2. define beat however you like. ask anyone on the forum, they will use 'beat' in the forum context -- battlefield removal or KO. he tricked champ. fine in a comic, but not in this forum. he did it through brains, not power. the whole showing is irrelevent anyway unless you care to say that thanos could have beat him/ko'd him in a straight up h2h fight.

<<Now of course, this is comic world. The world where wolverine beat lobo, where spider man beat firelord, and where batman beats everyone. Did thor and thing get a couple blows in? Yes, by double teaming him and hitting him in the back. Does that prove that thanos is approximately thor/thing's equal? No. In a direct, 1on1 confrontation, he has KO'd the thing (who has considerably more durability than strength) with a flick of his fingers. And he has wrestled and beat multiple thor-level heros on other occasions with apparent ease.

The fact that he got hit in the back a few times should not be decisive. When a roach or bee stings me in the back of my neck, it still hurts, no matter how many times I recite to myself, "I'm 1000x stronger than these bugs... they can't hurt me!!!">>

we've a name for the events you mentioned: PIS. no PIS in this forum. here if supes hits bats he's splattered. and stop with the bug stuff, you're weirding me out . . .

<<5. You think the power gem, the physical manifestation of a fundamental force of the universe, and one of the ingredients to the infinity gaunlet, is weaker than an asgardian trinket? Please. Read comics where this gem appears. It invariably is said to grant "infinite power" or "unlimited strength" or something along those lines.

Drax has certainly lost with the power gem. That's how warrior madness thor got it, after all. But drax is not exaclty the most intelligent fighter in the universe. And he usually loses because he loses the gem, not because he is bested in strength. I am only faintly recalling a drax/hulk power gem fight, so you'll have to refresh my memory.>>

doesn't matter what is said, but what is shown. odin is said many times to be all-powerful. hulk is the strongest one there is. infinity has scales. based on feats, you can absolutely compare the belt with the gem. by your logic, it appears no one with the gem is ever able to access it's 'infinite' power because its wielders are defeated. so how good is it? better than the belt? maybe, but not definitively so. if thor doubled his strength he'd certainly be able to go h2h with thanos.

<<You're comparing thanos to in-betweener now?

If it wasn't obvious contextually, I meant that I've never seen a better showing from a non-cosmic entity. Obviously, thanos with infinity gauntlet did better against galactus than thanos in the hunger storyline.

I've certaintly never seen a skyfather level entity do something like that to galactus. Most of them just get eaten.>>

that's fine. but where have you actually seen a skyfather entity battle galactus?? many LESS than skyfather have beaten or chased him off.

Originally posted by slade10
This is indicative of the power level I've seen of drax with gem:

KO'ing champion with one punch
http://www.comicboards.com/comicbattles/attachments/040917210140/lastscan16.jpg

It's worth noting, moreover, that drax supposedly has tapped the gem in a very limited fashion, given his intellectual limitations.

Other power gem wielders have been similarly insane. Always taking on numerous thor level heros and toasting them. You think thor normal power could dust the infinity watch, brb, and dr. strange without a scratch? Or thor with the belt of strength? please....

that's a good showing for the gem, no doubt. i'd chalk that up to PIS, personally, as have many others on the forum. ss had just gone all out on champ and not hurt him, but drax one punches him? frankly i think it was meant for comedic value, but i can't dispute the scene. then again, thing broke his ribs when he didn't have the gem, and shehulk beat the holy crap out of champ when he didn't have the gem, so maybe it's NOT that great a showing after all . . .

could normal thor beat the watch? probably not, but then warrior mad thor IS regular thor gone berserk. he doesn't draw additional power. it's STILL thor. like wolvie gone nuts. thor just generally keeps the berserker in him in check. he CAN let it out, as he was ready to do in the hulk battle where he thought hulk was maestro. so in THAT sense, he could beat them, but he'd have to go nuts to do it. regular thor scared the beejeezus out of warlock. he'd take a few down with him before he went. reg thor w/belt? that would be interesting. i'd give it to thor. herc beat down warlock and beat maxam. thor with 2x strength would easily do so. gamora wouldn't do much so it would be thor and drax. that might be interesting, but edge to thor because drax is a moron.

he'd certainly wipe out bill with the belt.

How do you know he didn't have the orb in that first pic? You can't see his other hand; and the blast blocks his shooting hand.

In any event, I don't see how that helps you. For one, it shows that you made something up. (Despite the fact that you're charging ME with fabrications) For another, if using his off hand means that thanos is not using the orb, then that clearly proves that this punch, the most powerful blow tyrant took arguably in the entire storyline (including fights against galactu), was on thanos' own power.

There's no orb in this punch:
http://img194.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img194&image=tyrant78hy.jpg

The fact is, when someone gets a boost from an unknown item, it's usually discussed SOMEWHERE in words. Tyrant talks about thanos "pilfering" at the end of their fight, but otherwise, there's no discussion of this orb at all. Thanos clearly wants it, and tyrant is clearly annoyed that tyrant has it. But no discussion of power amp. Not even any energy radiating or physical changes in thanos' apperance. And tyrant does not seem to really care at the start of the fight, or at the end of the fight, that thanos has the orb.

He DOES shoot something through the orb. But this is thanos. He can shoot cosmic energy through anything. ANd even if you think that blast comes from the orb, shooting energy with a device does not mean it amps your physical strength. The ultimate nullifier did not give morg the power to destroy the univesre with a punch.

It's also worth pointing out that thanos is not seriously hurt AT ALL in this fight UNTIL he picks the orb back up. This nonsense about healing with the orb actually has things backward.

THIS is the artifact that boosted thanos to fight a galaxy-destroyer?

Originally posted by leonidas
that's a good showing for the gem, no doubt. i'd chalk that up to PIS, personally, as have many others on the forum. ss had just gone all out on champ and not hurt him, but drax one punches him? frankly i think it was meant for comedic value, but i can't dispute the scene. then again, thing broke his ribs when he didn't have the gem, and shehulk beat the holy crap out of champ when he didn't have the gem, so maybe it's NOT that great a showing after all . . .

could normal thor beat the watch? probably not, but then warrior mad thor IS regular thor gone berserk. he doesn't draw additional power. it's STILL thor. like wolvie gone nuts. thor just generally keeps the berserker in him in check. he CAN let it out, as he was ready to do in the hulk battle where he thought hulk was maestro. so in THAT sense, he could beat them, but he'd have to go nuts to do it. regular thor scared the beejeezus out of warlock. he'd take a few down with him before he went. reg thor w/belt? that would be interesting. i'd give it to thor. herc beat down warlock and beat maxam. thor with 2x strength would easily do so. gamora wouldn't do much so it would be thor and drax. that might be interesting, but edge to thor because drax is a moron.

he'd certainly wipe out bill with the belt.

IIRC, champ was weakend vs she-hulk. That's why he could pound beta ray bill, surfer, etc and lose to her.

No mention of that in the drax pic, afaik. (though i only have taht one pic)

I don't remember the vs thing example. In any event, that works against you. If champ is losing to she-hulk and getting hurt by thing without the power gem, what does that tell you about the gem?

Btw, does anyone have the scan where it's stated in a bubble that warrior madness thor is at least 10x stronger than normal thor? It was either a narrator bubble or a comment by an authoritative source, iirc.

Edit: wait, you think thor with the belt of strength could take out the infinity watch, brb, and strange? that's crazy, man... thor had trouble with kurse with the belt. strength is not all that. Strange could one-shot thor without the power gem...

kurse was beating thor down. he got the belt and started beating down kurse. then the beyonder amped his strength even MORE. that's why kurse beat him down.

the thing example is fine. earlier in the book champ throttles everyone at once (hulk, thor, thing, colossus, namor, wonderman) with just his OWN power! the same version that drax ko'd with one shot. (which is another reason i say pis on that scene and think it was meant to be funny and nothing more telling . . .) yet in a h2h fight thing hurt him.

i've no idea where this idea of 10x stronger came from. i've never seen the bubble you talk about. warrior thor IS thor. unfettered.

you're interpretation of the fight with tyrant explains everything accept this: if the orb played no part in the fight and it was all thanos, why bother reaching for it in the first place once he dropped it? maybe that first blast WAS augnmented, just not enough to harm him. maybe thanos didn't use the orb's power (which is what i believe) because he's arrogant and wanted to use only his OWN power at first. when he realized tyrant was far beyond him he used the orb to augment his might for the remainder of the fight. there is no other logical way to explain why he wanted so badly (hand shaking) to regain the orb, then the sudden change in the fight.

warrior thor fought the watch. bill was not part of that portion of the fight i don't think. he'd already been beaten.

thor v strange is utterly irrelevent to the thread.

oh, and what is afaik??

Originally posted by leonidas
kurse was beating thor down. he got the belt and started beating down kurse. then the beyonder amped his strength even MORE. that's why kurse beat him down.

the thing example is fine. earlier in the book champ throttles everyone at once (hulk, thor, thing, colossus, namor, wonderman) with just his OWN power! yet in a h2h fight thing hurt him.

i've no idea where this idea of 10x stronger came from. i've never seen the bubble you talk about. warrior thor IS thor. unfettered.

you're interpretation of the fight with tyrant explains everything accept this: if the orb played no part in the fight and it was all thanos, why bother reaching for it in the first place once he dropped it? maybe that first blast WAS augnmented, just not enough to harm him. maybe thanos didn't use the orb's power (which is what i believe) because he's arrogant and wanted to use only his OWN power at first. when he realized tyrant was far beyond him he used the orb to augment his might for the remainder of the fight. there is no other logical way to explain why he wanted so badly (hand shaking) to regain the orb, then the sudden change in the fight.

warrior thor fought the watch. bill was not part of that portion of the fight i don't think. he'd already been beaten.

thor v strange is utterly irrelevent to the thread.

oh, and what is afaik??

by your logic, shouldn't kurse have destroyed thor, in both incarnations, in one blow? He was 2x strength at first, and probably 4x strength after the second amp.

10x stregnth was mentioned in a marvel handbook, and I believe in some comic. The best I can get is this comment by a knowledgeable poster on another forum:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=104608

(Look for lochdale's second post)

afaik = as far as i know.

why would thanos reach for the orb? Because he THINKS it's incredibly valuable. THat doesn't mean he can tap its power, or that the power presumably in the sphere even CAN be used by anyone other than tyrant. All we know is that thanos THINKS that the orb is key to TYRANT's power.

Which turns out to be wrong.

"powerful item is a fake" stories are as old as comics. But until they're discovered to be fakes, people still fight for them.

I don't think there's anything unusual here.

Originally posted by slade10
afaik = as far as i know.

why reach for it? Because he THINKS it's incredibly valuable -- as distinct from powerful. THat doesn't mean he can tap its power, or that the power presumably in the sphere even CAN be used by anyone other than tyrant. All we know is that thanos THINKS that the orb is key to TYRANT's power.

Which turns out to be wrong.

"powerful item is a fake" stories are as old as comics. But until they're discovered to be fakes, people still fight for them.

I don't think there's anything unusual here.

and if its fake, it would have SAID it's fake. it wasn't fake. thanos thought it was unique. it wasn't. where does it say fake? and how does it turn the battle when he gets it?? coincidence?

no way. you'll interpret it how you like, i'll interpret it how i like.

incidentally, you're a tenacious little bastard. not a bad debate.

doesn't change the fact that there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor, though.

Originally posted by leonidas
and if its fake, it would have SAID it's fake. it wasn't fake. thanos thought it was unique. it wasn't. where does it say fake? and how does it turn the battle when he gets it?? coincidence?

no way. you'll interpret it how you like, i'll interpret it how i like.

incidentally, you're a tenacious little bastard. not a bad debate.

doesn't change the fact that there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor, though.

they don't have to say fake. they show fake/decoy. that's the clear implication when the larger sphere is revealed. that the smaller spheres are mere channels for the real energy source, or something along those lines. I wish i had that scan on hand because I'm pretty sure it says something along those lines in the text.

and it doesn't turn the battle when thanos picks the orb up. again, notice that when he drops it and gets knocked around, his costume is just fine. the blast that really hurts thanos occurs AFTER he picks the orb back up, and is holding it in his hand.

You must think kurse is like the strongest being in the multiverse? He's 4x thor's normal strength, possibly more.

kurse DID crush thor when he was twice as strong.

and no offense to whoever your knowledgeable guy is, but i've collected books for about 25 years and have over 6000 of them. i'll trust my own knowledge, thanks.

the end of the mini says nothing like what you say. thanos mumbles something about hiw tyrant has to live with the knowledge that thanos humbled him. the last pic is tyrant laughing amid a thousand orbs, holding up a ingle large one from among all of them. so all are kept in the same place as this large one, but all are decoys?? makes no sense at all. they all have power. some more than others and he saves them to use on his rematch with galactus.

before he dropped it tyrant was toying with him. his hand is shaking when he reaches for it-- he was hurt and wants it back badly and in a hurry. why? to augment his own power.

you somehow think ALL of the other orbs -- thousands! -- were 'decoys' too?? no way. makes no sense. and the battle DID change. he was bounced around before he regained the orb and shot through it. the effect of the blast was clearly different from the first unaided blast. if that blast was augmented, why not the rest of his power?

seriously, you need to reread that arc again. your interpretation just doesn't hold water.

and kurse IS about the strongest thing out there! he beat down -- easily -- thor and bill simultaneously. not many can do that using nothing more than strength -- in fact NO ONE has ever done anything like that using ONLY strength and no power. but beyonder took back his power so kurse i don't think is that strong anymore. can't recall for sure -- that is a very old arc. and he has a weakness to iron so he can lose easily.

I don't have the comic. I used to have virtually all of these as scans. But my hd went bad a few years back, and I didn't bother trying to recover everything.

I did not say all of them were decoys. The one that was set out apart, and indicated by the computer thanos hacked, probably was. It was too convenient, especially for an entity with cosmic awareness. Why leave incorrect information in your computer if you're not expecting someone to hack it?

requires too much reading into things by the reader. he doesn't use the orb, he's being pummeled. he uses it and the fight suddenly turns more even. coincidence? i don't think so . . .

you'll believe what you want. i have my own thoughts. i think the orb was real. it DID augment thanos in the fight. and there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor.

oh, and for thise saying what about the thread: warrior thor kills herc.

and on the earlier token: you must think thanos would crush kurse easily in a h2h fight, no powers, in a ring. he'd still be at least 25x as strong as kurse. be a walk in the park for him . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
requires too much reading into things by the reader. he doesn't use the orb, he's being pummeled. he uses it and the fight suddenly turns more even. coincidence? i don't think so . . .

you'll believe what you want. i have my own thoughts. i think the orb was real. it DID augment thanos in the fight. and there is no way thanos is 100x stronger than thor.

oh, and for thise saying what about the thread: warrior thor kills herc.

and on the earlier token: you must think thanos would crush kurse easily in a h2h fight, no powers, in a ring. he'd still be at least 25x as strong as kurse. be a walk in the park for him . . .

Where are you getting that he's being pummeled? He's not seriously hurt until AFTER he picks the orb back up.

and yes, thanos would crush kurse -- no tricks, no cosmic energy. Just as he's crushed every other (non-cosmic) character he's ever been in a physical fight with.

other than ss, name one non-cosmic thanos has ko'd using just strength? again, hulk amped by nate held his own. thor and thing knocked him around.

and he WAS being whooped by tyrant. staggers to reach for the orb. smashed through the wall. blasted. why do you think his hands are shaking as he reaches for the orb if he's not hurt??

so you think thanos would beat down mangog easily as well?

where are his hand shaking? There are some lines near his hands, but that's as consistent with movement as shaking. there are also some lines near tyrant's feet? is tyrant shaking as well?

what's mangog's strength level? is he that much stronger than thor? he is a lot of other powers, so he'd be a good fight for thanos. but thanos would come out on top, just as odin did.

mangog had hell with thor . . .

what do you mean where are his hands shaking? look again. they are clearly around his fingers as he reaches. the lines around tyrant are shading on the ground. are you kidding?? i don't see lines when anyone else moves.

this is getting pointless. i leave you to your thoughts and let other readers be the judge as to whose interpretation is more plausible. i've already spent more time here today than in the last week combined.

Originally posted by leonidas
mangog had hell with thor . . .

what do you mean where are his hands shaking? look again. i don't see lines when anyone moves. this is getting pointless. i leave you to your thoughts and let other readers be the judge as to whose interpretation is more plausible.

I've looked at that pic at least a dozen times and never thought his hand was shaking a single time. Didn't even occur to me. If he's so injured, why is his costume and physical apperance fine?

And you didn't explain the lines next to tyrant's feet...

I have to go. Used too much time here

check my edited post!