DE Sidious vs Ulic Qel Droma and Yoda

tdtd

Originally posted by IKC
You're a broken record. This is the tale of practically all your responses to anything I've posted, no matter how well written and thought out.

Please. I'm not required to make you believe jack shit. You've been a lost cause for a long time now.

Take your ball and go home, trolling doesn't work.

Translation: I have no argument, so i'm going to use personal attacks, that pertain to nothing, to further weaken my position because I refuse anybody can beat my precious TOTJ characters...

Everything you've just said was your opinion which is cute and I respect that, however none of it makes it so, try again. I believe you lack the comphrension to properly define "troll", so you just flat out say it nowadays when you have absolutely no argument, which is ok since you're only one on here that can't admit defeat.. If anything, you trolled this thread not me, since I was in it from the very beginning providing arguments... But I'll throw one more for you, see how far your denial takes you...

Yoda- Grand master of the order, unrivaled in saber combat and force abilities. I could say he's been the best for over 500+ years but that's mere speculation. We KNOW he's one of the most powerful jedi ever.

Ulic-lightsaber prodigy. Because we suddenly know where to rank him, since he was the only "lightsaber prodigy right"? How about ranking him and Kun above Sadow or Kressh or even Ragnos, since they were "lightsaber prodigies".. Please, that doesn't mean very much anymore. Defeated Mandalore.. Wow, that puts him where exactly? Thought so. Oh and my favorite. He fought a saber duel without the force, omg he's sooo uber. Please.. Unless you can quantify his power in regards to not having the force and having the force, that doesn't put him above Yoda, seeing as how you love using that argument to make him superior.. In conclusion, we're looking for an argument, not your TOTJ bias, so come back when you're ready sport, and crank out that dictionary...

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by IKC
Uh, no. He's far above Yoda in saber combat.

If the duo can close the distance, Sidious is dicked hardcore.

Took the words right from my mouth, IKC.

IKC

Actually, we know that Vodo, for example, would thrash him. I'd place my money on Arca and Odan-Urr to beat him as well. He also barely got close to defeating a closeted Sith Lord/politician, Sidious. Doesn't much speak well for Yoda's skills when such a relatively weak opponent can hold him back and come so close to his level.

Oh yeah, he's "unrivaled."

Kun himself was a saber prodigy as well, I don't see what you think you're proving unless it's strawman argument. Sorry, but your biased bullshit opinion that prodigies "don't mean much anymore" (as if they once meant something but for some inexplicable reason don't anymore? Where the **** is that coming from?) is inadmissable.

He defeated Mandalore while standing on rickety chains suspended about a hundred feet in the air while Mandalore was on a Basilisk war droid. Mandalore had all the advantages. Your appeal to ridicule doesn't diminish his feat.

And yes, he fought and stalemated a Jedi in a saber duel without the Force, when the Jedi opponent had the Force and thus could use it to increase her speed, strength, and sense his movements through precognition.

So basically, if neither of them had the Force, you would have to put weights on Ulic's arms and legs and then blindfold him to get the same effect. Oh, and then give his opponent some apparatus by which she can sense Ulic's attacks and blocks. That's how good he is.

I don't see how you don't understand how having the Force benefits someone in saber combat. If Ulic was that good without the Force, he was far better with it, at the height of the Sith War.

I'd like to see Yoda do jack shit without the Force. I doubt he'd be able to make one ridiculous spinning leap before getting cut in half.

Oh, right. Almost forgot:

Troll, n.

One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

tdtd

Originally posted by IKC
Actually, we know that Vodo, for example, would thrash him. I'd place my money on Arca and Odan-Urr to beat him as well. He also barely got close to defeating a closeted Sith Lord/politician, Sidious. Doesn't much speak well for Yoda's skills when such a relatively weak opponent can hold him back and come so close to his level.

In conclusion, his ability to fight without the force doesn't make him more powerful than Yoda, unless you can quantify his power. Neither does being called a lightsaber prodigy..
Oh yeah, he's "unrivaled."

Kun himself was a saber prodigy as well, I don't see what you think you're proving unless it's strawman argument. Sorry, but your biased bullshit opinion that prodigies "don't mean much anymore" (as if they once meant something but for some inexplicable reason don't anymore? Where the **** is that coming from?) is inadmissable.

He defeated Mandalore while standing on rickety chains suspended about a hundred feet in the air while Mandalore was on a Basilisk war droid. Mandalore had all the advantages. Your appeal to ridicule doesn't diminish his feat.

And yes, he fought and stalemated a Jedi in a saber duel without the Force, when the Jedi opponent had the Force and thus could use it to increase her speed, strength, and sense his movements through precognition.

So basically, if neither of them had the Force, you would have to put weights on Ulic's arms and legs and then blindfold him to get the same effect. Oh, and then give his opponent some apparatus by which she can sense Ulic's attacks and blocks. That's how good he is.

I don't see how you don't understand how having the Force benefits someone in saber combat. If Ulic was that good without the Force, he was far better with it, at the height of the Sith War.

I'd like to see Yoda do jack shit without the Force. I doubt he'd be able to make one ridiculous spinning leap before getting cut in half.

We know Vodo would thrash him? And your proof of this is what? Let me guess, "(oh it was a martial time therefore Vodo pwns Yoda". Please..And if you read carefully you'd see I meant unrivaled in his time.. Everything else you've just listed includes irrelevant feats because none of them make them superior to Yoda. Oh yea and btw, you adding your 'strawman is a logical fallacy' was predictale. Calling me biased when that's all you've ever been from day 1 is hypocrisy, look it up. I don't see how you fail to understand that unless you properly quantify his power, you can't state that that feat alone puts him above Yoda, just because we see him fighting and losing without the force. If I tell you that what's his name had the power of 375 planets, you are going to ask me to quantify his power. But when I put your favorite character/s in the same position you think it's irrelevant. At least be more consistent and less biased.

tdtd

Hmmm I stated an argument, you came to the forum with an opinion, and said "Go to other threads to read my arguments". What did you do next? Oh wait, avoid my question with a personal attack, and still did not formulate an argument. You've perfectly described your first 2 threads.. Way to go IKC.

IKC

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t392447.html

Read the thread. Hell, you created it.

And I answered that with Sidious. Throw in Dooku as well.

What's it like to wear blinders?

Well, considering you made a strawman argument, I would hope it would be.

Alright champ. Sure thing.

Actually we see him fighting and stalemating without the Force. He didn't lose.

That feat placed in context with all else we know about him and his skills puts him far above Yoda. Sorry, arguments don't happen in a void.

Because otherwise you're throwing out an irrelevant number designed to make the easily-impressed cream their jeans. We saw he wasn't able to overcome the power of just one Jedi, so it obviously wasn't much.

Except you... haven't. Your idea of argument and debate is cute, though.

I'd go dig up Faunus' quote, but I'm sure you've seen it enough.

Your opinion means as much to me as Hans Zimmer's ball sweat.

Janus Marius

lmao

tdtd = pwnt

tdtd

How adorable, my arguments are opinions while your opinions are arguments. How long have you been lying to yourself? You still fail to understand the concept of hypocrisy. But lets try again, your debating skills get worse and worse when it comes to TOTJ...

Dooku could not rival Yoda in force powers, I don't know where you got that crap from. "OH but he stalemated Dooku". Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it. Do you understand the term "unrivaled"? He was never defeated in any type of combat, he was beating Sidious, unless you start using a lightsnake argument. Oh but Ulic is instantly better because he fought without the force. Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right? Oh wait, you can't. Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining.

And Janus, do you even bother to read the thread before throwing out your insignificant opinion? Why not try throwing in a debate once in a while. So far all you ever do is follow IKC's posts with "I agree", or "Well said" or "pwnt" or "I love you". Yet you can't throw in something to tell me i'm wrong which I find hilarous. You're the only one I see not adding anything after his posts except your congratulations.. So in conclusion, you coming into a thread with no basis for your post, is indeed humorous

Janus Marius

tdtd, I have debated in this forum- more than anyone else and since the very day of its creation. I feel entitled to agree with IKC, especially since he's making the same argument I would. Why be redundant? If there's something I feel the need to add, I will.

But really... if my opinion is "insignificant"... why do you care anyways?

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1051/tdtdpwnedbaby6dt.jpg

tdtd

because I don't see you throwing in an argument of your own, but i'm glad you feel it's more important to google images and edit the. Way to use your time wisely.

On another note, it's funny how you TOTJ fans think a feat such as using a saber without the force makes Ulic uber powerful, without even being able to quantify that power or throwing in a couter argument. I love the "It's TOTJ, he can use a saber without the force, therefore he's better than all of PT" mentality.

Janus Marius

Uh, last I checked you don't own the forum, so your opinion of what I should or shouldn't post is moot. After all, it's just my insignificant opinion.

Congrats, tdtd...

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2723/swkoscar18wx.jpg

You're a troll.

tdtd

Hmmm.. I'm a troll, when I was in this thread right when it was made offering arguments, and you came in for the first time with 2-3 words of unwarranted opinion/personal attack. Oh wait, isn't that a troll? Yea perhaps you should look it up as well, and next time I want your opinion I suppose I'll ask IKC for it, troll.

Darth_Glentract

tdtd, you're just being annoying. You're proving no more then Janus, and he isn't even trying.

tdtd

Neither am I, and i'm waiting on a counterargument Glentract, and since Janus can't offer one since IKC isn't here, maybe you can, since I know you like both Ulic and Yoda based on your site.. So far argue this and instead chooses to ignore it and continue with the idea that their opinions are facts, which is a regular on this forum.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by tdtd
How adorable, my arguments are opinions while your opinions are arguments. How long have you been lying to yourself? You still fail to understand the concept of hypocrisy. But lets try again, your debating skills get worse and worse when it comes to TOTJ...

You aren't the overriding center of the universe, no matter what your mama may tell you. Why do you think you understand better then IKC or Janus? They're are ton more knowledgeable then you.

Originally posted by tdtd
Dooku could not rival Yoda in force powers, I don't know where you got that crap from. "OH but he stalemated Dooku". Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it. Do you understand the term "unrivaled"? He was never defeated in any type of combat, he was beating Sidious, unless you start using a lightsnake argument. Oh but Ulic is instantly better because he fought without the force. Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right? Oh wait, you can't. Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining.

"Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it."

This is opinion.

"He was never defeated in any type of combat"

Untrue. He LOST to Sidious. Sidious blasted Yoda's ass on the Senate pod.

"unless you start using a lightsnake argument."

And a Lightsnake argument is...?

"Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right?"

"Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining."

Practice what you preach.

We can. How? It's simple, really. Ulic stalemated Exar. They both went on to grow much more powerful after the fight. Unless you think someone who was able to stalemate Exar for a while would lose to Yoda, shut up. If you think Yoda is that close to Exar in power, a whole new range of targets appears on your argument.

Originally posted by tdtd
And Janus, do you even bother to read the thread before throwing out your insignificant opinion? Why not try throwing in a debate once in a while. So far all you ever do is follow IKC's posts with "I agree", or "Well said" or "pwnt" or "I love you". Yet you can't throw in something to tell me i'm wrong which I find hilarous. You're the only one I see not adding anything after his posts except your congratulations.. So in conclusion, you coming into a thread with no basis for your post, is indeed humorous

I'm not going to take the time to respond with more then this sentence to this pile of shit.

tdtd

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You aren't the overriding center of the universe, no matter what your mama may tell you. Why do you think you understand better then IKC or Janus? They're are ton more knowledgeable then you.

"Please, Dooku was no match for Yoda, and he knew it."

This is opinion.

"He was never defeated in any type of combat"

Untrue. He LOST to Sidious. Sidious blasted Yoda's ass on the Senate pod.

"unless you start using a lightsnake argument."

And a Lightsnake argument is...?

"Right, because you can quantify his power with the force right?"

"Throw in an argument, not an opinion champ, but you defending TOTJ is qute entertaining."

Practice what you preach.

We can. How? It's simple, really. Ulic stalemated Exar. They both went on to grow much more powerful after the fight. Unless you think someone who was able to stalemate Exar for a while would lose to Yoda, shut up. If you think Yoda is that close to Exar in power, a whole new range of targets appears on your argument.

I'm not going to take the time to respond with more then this sentence to this pile of shit.

Dooku being second to Yoda is a fact, not opinion "champ". Yoda being the most powerful in saber and force combat is fact, not opinion, champ.
He lost to Sidious? What fight were you watching? Sidious was the one with the "oh shit i'm screwed" look before they BOTH were blasted off the pod. Yoda, being the lighter one was a victim of circumstance, nowhere did it show Sidious ever blasting Yoda off the pod, at least provide accurate evidence for your argument. Oh and if you're going to say "well Yoda lost because he didn't destroy the sith", I'll respond with "no, Yoda won because he lived to train Luke Skywalker, who was responsible for the end of the sith". Next, you still have yet to quantify Ulic's power. I've come to the realization that none of the TOTJ fans want to touch this since it can't be argued and it might greatly diminish their character's power.. Moving on, Ulic stalemated Kun before Kun developed his new saber AND style. Before Kun did that, he could NOT defeat Vodo, understand? Therefore Ulic<Vodo. So where in all of that blabbering text did you prove that Ulic is greater than Yoda? I mean at least IKC attempted to provide Ulic's irrelevant feats.

hord06

Ulic was clearly a slightly better lightsaber duelist, but his mastery of the force was much greater.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
Dooku being second to Yoda is a fact, not opinion "champ".

Really? Where did you define this "fact" from? Do you have a credible source or argument, tdtd?

I doubt this. Again, prove up or shut up. I haven't seen you reference one credible source since you've came here. Also, how can you ***** about me agreeing with IKC when all you do is lick Nai's ass everytime he reaffirms your bias?

Again, you're missing the point- Yoda was unable to overcome Sidious through the force or the saber. This goes AGAINST your argument that he's the top-notch in both. Yoda could NOT disarm or kill Sidious with either the force or the lightsaber, and Sidious was able to better use the environment to his advantage. Did you think Yoda hopping down to the low ground while fighting a sith lord was a smart thing? One thing I have to point out is that Yoda himself jumped down. He wasn't forced down, and certainly Sidious didn't even have a saber in his hands. Why the hell would he do that? So now you've drawn focus to the idea that Yoda is an idiot in combat and this again strikes against your argument of him being uber. After all, Ulic was in a precarious situation and was clearly in the disadvantage, yet he didn't lose his ass like Yoda did. And at this point, if you attempt to make up excuses like "Oh, Yoda's little" or "Oh, Yoda's old", you undermine Yoda's power again.

So face it- Yoda couldn't contend with Sidious, who is roughly the same duelling level as Mace and Dooku.

See above. Yoda was a victim of stupidity and weakness, unless you'd like to PROVE that he beat Sidious in anything other than the Force tug-o-war. He certainly didn't pwn him in saber combat before Sidious got the high ground, did he? Yoda was all over his ass, hammering away and Sidious had nowhere to go and a disadvantage at hitting him, yet he managed. Obviously, if Yoda was Der Meister at all things, he would have crushed Sidious like a bug with his own desk in the office and bisected him.

Yoda himself admits he lost. So stfu.

I just did.

Ulic with a disadvantage beats Mandalore. Later on, without the Force aiding him, stalemates a jedi who's enraged.

That's two counts of being on the short end of the stick and far surpassing what others could do. Yoda had the disadvantage with Sidious and he lost his ass. Likewise, both times he confronted the Sith he had the element of surprise and he had a fair setting. With Dooku, he failed to defeat him and Dooku was able to outthink him and get away. With Sidious, Sidious was able to outthink him and get to higher ground.

I really don't see Yoda coming out of this argument with his dignity intact, do you?

That's just you being ignorant and classifying people. And since it has nothing to do with the debate at hand, I'll leave it at that.

He did make a new style? And it was this style that gave him the edge over Vodo? Can you PROVE this, or is this another unsubstantiated claim?

O rly? Can you PROVE this? Or is it opinion, tdtd?

False conclusion. Your premises aren't in order. Try again, champ.

Ulic's irrelevant feats? Oh, I get it- if the other party doesn't champion your favored character in a match, the feats are irrelevant, the facts are opinions, and they are all TOTJ fanboys, is that correct?

Please, tdtd. You are an amateur at debate. Go home.

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1197/gtfo9ob.png

tdtd

Could't contend with Sidious? Or couldn't beat? Two different things Janus.. Yoda admits he lost? Or admits he failed because he wasn't able to defeat the sith? Shut up until you watch the movie again.. It's funny how you try to downplay Yoda with the belief that he "lost" or "let" Dooku get away, failing to notice the metal that was about to fall on Anakin and Obiwan, and then failing to see Sidious face right before they both were thrown off the platform, so tell me where Yoda lost? Remember this is Star Wars, not Star Wars according to Janus.. Ah, so Ulic beating Mandalore and stalemating Sylvan or whatever the hell his/her name is, quantifies his power to be superior to Yoda's? I'll just leave that as a personal opinion. You want me to prove that Vodo could still beat Kun at this point? The onus is on you to prove Kun became better than Vodo before he developed his new style and saber, even if it might diminish the power of your TOTJ characters.. Now if Kun<Vodo, then Ulic<Vodo because Ulic at best was equal to Kun.. So it's not a false conclusion on my part.. So far you've listed a bunch of personal opinions, how nice Janus. By the way, calling me an "amateur at debate", I assume you mean debating of course, is yet another unwarranted and insignificant opinion on your part, especially since we're only debating 1 subject that I know less about than half of the people here, so good job making a general quote from a specific topic Janus, that was REALLY Logical, "champ".

IKC

Originally posted by Fishy
tdtd

this is how clueless you are

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BlackDad.jpg

To clarify you are the dad in the picture

tdtd

"I love TOTJ and nobody is going to convince me that anyone is more powerful than them!".. Great mentality IKC smile

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
Could't contend with Sidious? Or couldn't beat? Two different things Janus..

I'd say that he couldn't beat him using the saber, and he couldn't contend with him when Sidious took the high ground. If he could, he would have beaten Sidious either using the saber, or crushed him with the force. Obviously, Yoda > Sidious is misleading, because the margin of combat capability is pretty small. Either that, or you want to argue that Yoda was a victim of poor luck?

"Failed, I have." What was his mission, tdtd? Oh wait... he was going to end Sidious' reign. Which would mean killing him or at the very least rendering him harmless. That didn't happen. Hence, he LOST.

I think you missed the point on the Dooku fight- he didn't overcome Dooku with the force or the saber, and Dooku simply outthought him and escaped. Sidious outthought him later on and got to the high ground. Yes, I know Yoda beat Sidious in the Force tug-o-war; I've argued that myself. But Yoda lost the match. And he lost it well before that sequence ever came up. He failed to kill Sidious with the force in the first place. He failed to penetrate Sidious' saber defenses (Though Mace could). He failed to recover from the force assault and finish the job. Damn. I guess he lost his ass on that match, huh?

I love how you hate on IKC but you steal his quotes all the time. There's another one coming up in your post. Oh, and btw you're the one with the "my opinions are fact" mindset here. Don't try and pawn off your faults on me, troll.

You have NO clue about the fights in question, yet you say they are "irrelevant"? By that logic, all of NJO is irrelevant because I didn't read any of the books. Good job at hypocrisy, tdtd. Go read the source material first, then come back and argue against what's in the material. Don't just go "OMfg I don't believe in it, Yoda is teh bettur!!!" when you don't know jack shit about Ulic Qel-Droma.

The onus, eh? Do you steal all of IKC's words? Trying to learn something from other people who can reason? It's admirable, though you're still failing miserably.

No, "the onus" is on YOU, because you made the claim just before that it was Kun's new style that made the difference and defeated Vodo, and not anyhing else. You dealt us an absolute judgment on something I doubt you even read, and now you want ME to prove otherwise? I can play that game...

Yoda had less force potential than Sidious.

Go ahead... prove me wrong. The onus is on your, since you said that Yoda was the master of both. Prove that Yoda's force potential is superior to Sidious'.

So if A = B, and A < C, B < C? That would seem to work, except that Dooku < Obi-Wan, yet Anakin < Dooku, yet Obi-Wan < Anakin. So it doesn't just "stack up" like that, tdtd. Also, you failed to substantiate how much Kun changed in saber prowess from the time he challenged Ulic to the confrontation in the senate chamber. I'm awaiting your credible sources, tdtd. You can spring them out any time now.

Really? No, I've been pointing out that you're making claims without backing them up. You say "Yoda beat Sidious and was superior" and then go on to validify that with "Look at Sidious' face during the lightning battle". Uh, no. That's not proving your case. You don't even have any canon evidence to draw on other than your own biased viewings on the ROTS battle scene. No script, no novelisation, no other EU sources... Hell, you don't even know who or what Sylvar is yet you're arguing that defending against her without the force using a lightsaber is somehow less of a feat than being pwned by a closet Sith/politician. Ignroance is not an excuse for an opinion, tdtd. Go read up before you come back here.

Was there a point in that overly long sentence? No, didn't think so. You are an amateur. You don't even have passing knowledge of the source material you're downplaying; that's pathetic.

tdtd

You're saying Yoda couldn't beat him with a saber Janus? Have you read the book? It usually has those fill in scenes that the movie doesn't, like Yoda disarming Sidious.. I won't say Yoda was a victim of poor luck, but you can watch the movies again and see who was winning at the end.. I wouldn't put failed and lost under the same category, unless of course I want to say that Sidious wanted to destroy Yoda as much as Yoda wanted to destroy Sidious, because Sidious knew Yoda would be a great threat. That fight was a stalemate if anything, and yet Yoda survived, so he 'won' in the longterm, if we're going to go that route. He failed to defeat Sidious, he did not lose the fight to him, two different things. Stop calling me a troll when your first post in this thread was a stupid comment worthy of a troll, that would make you a hypocrite. And what does me using someone's quotes have to do with anything? You interpreting things differently than how they happened IS "Star Wars according to Janus".. Again I love how you judge my 'ability to reason' based on a star wars forum, knowing I work with whatever information I have. I'm not sure what you mean buy Yoda has less force potential than Sidious, i'm skimming through that part, but I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. Youre right I don't know how much better Kun got, so it's no place for me to judge, at the same time you have no place to say Ulic is better than Yoda because he stalemated Kun, because then youre just assuming that kun got a lot better, without any proof of course.. You're right, the A>B>C argument doesn't work in all cases, but my point is if Kun is better than Vodo and equal to Ulic, then Ulic in most cases would be better than Vodo, unless you'd like to disprove that one.. Oh and you're right, George Lucas DIDNT say the fight was a stalemate, he said Yoda lost right? Oh wait, no.. Amateur at star wars compared to most of you maybe, calling me an amateur debater in general is just a baseless opinion. Try again Janus, this time without getting angry and using personal attacks because i've insulted your favorite characters.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
You're saying Yoda couldn't beat him with a saber Janus?

Yes, I am.

Here's the link to the battle in case you slept through it: Here

Yes, I read parts of the book. Unfortunately, movie canon overrides the book, which is error-ridden and based on an earlier version of the script. According to SW canon policy, movies over scripts since they are the final product of GL's vision. So what we saw is what we have. And again, Yoda did NOT kill Sidious. If he was as good as you first asserted, he would have bent Sidious over and saberraped him. But he didn't. Hence, he's not as good as you claim or he wouldn't have been in danger of losing from a disarmed man.

Yeah, gravity > Yoda. I saw that.

He lost the battle. Hence, he did not win. IF Yoda was as good as you claim, THEN he would have destroyed Sidious.

I can't call it like I see it? Oh, I'm sorry, Sir Troll. Please forgive.

It makes you hilarious, because you call IKC a fanboy and a moron, yet you steal his logos and terms.

By this logic, everything ever said on this forum is "SW according to X". But you are mistaking that little line for something else. See, "SW according to Nai" is when Nai starts grossly misinterpreating canon information and arguing against established fact. He did that in the other thread, where PT jedi > ToTJ Jedi. That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I do. You've been here since November, and you supposively have some novels and comics, yet you "don't have the material"? That's a sad excuse. I don't own a copy of the Koran, but that doesn't give me free reign to start shitting on it rampantly.

www.swcomics.com

There. You have no excuse for ignorance on the comics now.

I was. You're trying to twist things around and make me prove my point when you first made the unsupported assertion. It doesn't work like that; you prove up.

You made the claim though. You admit it was unsupported, and thus "opinion". So you're a hypocrite and an ignoramus on the topic. That's two strikes against you.

No, first you claimed that Kun improved with a new style and that's how he beat Vodo. Ergo, in this line of thinking, Kun improved but Ulic did not. This also operates on the assumption that improvement was needed (Which may be the case, but there's no proof from you. It's a bogus claim on your part without anything to back it up.) Then you said that Vodo > Ulic, which begs for proof. So that's where that argument got started. Stay on track, please.

Getting angry? Please, don't make me laugh. If you think I get angry over this forum, you're deluded.

Btw...

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7063/213at.jpg

IKC

An entertaining read, bravo.

Oops, I'd better not say that. tdtd might copy it for the next time he needs to kiss Nai's ass.

tdtd

I read a bunch of stuff but in terms of TOTJ I only have DLOTS and Sith War.. I'm trying to not read that until KOTOR and Freedon Nadd Uprising come in.. Also, since when did IKC invent these terms you speak of? I notice the majority of you get angry because personal attacks start coming out, followed be useless pictures, of course that's your opinion though and that's as far as it goes, which is alright by me champ. And I was making a point that Ulic=Kun at some point, and claimed that I don't know if Kun could or could not defeat Vodo at this point. Alright.... So when Vodo and Kun were fighting and Kun wasn't able to budge him(or as you like to say toying with him), and Kun turned on his second blade and killed Vodo, what does that mean to you.. Really, you don't have to play stupid, you can interpret that logically. Kun wasn't able to beat Vodo with a single blade, therefore we know Ulic couldn't beat Vodo with a single blade because Ulic=Kun at best, and this was before Kun developed his style/blade...

Oh yea, I love it how you say I kiss Nai's ass when I disagree with his PT Jedi>TOTJ Jedi, but when you two verbally fellate each other, it's normal. I love how your logic only exists when it involves star wars.

Janus Marius

Prove that Kun couldn't defeat Vodo with just one blade, since you ARE making the claim.

tdtd

Prove it? Was he ever able to Janus? Ever? Nope. I understand absence of proof isn't proof of absence, but we have nothing to go with that would make us believe that Kun has the ability to beat him with one saber, stating otherwise would be fanboyism. If you want evidence, look at both of his fights with Vodo, one as an apprentice, the other as a DLOTS. First fight he got his ass handed to him, then got a second blade and took down Vodo or broke his stick, I can't remember. Second fight, couldn't do jack shit with 1 blade, took out the second blade, beat Vodo. All the evidence points to my claim Janus. With all that said, asking me to prove a negative is a logical fallacy.. I did however bring it up so it is partly my fault, so my question to you should have been "Prove Kun could beat Vodo with a single blade".

Illustrious

No. Dooku was Sidious' *****, it's unconfirmed if he was superior to Yoda. Dooku is not proven to be on the council, it's again unconfirmed if he was second best. Mace was on-par with Yoda on the Council, he beat Sidious, it's unconfirmed if and by how much Yoda would be Mace, that's just the majority of the fans' opinions.

What the hell, does adding "champ" make your opinion more valid now?

Yoda as the most powerful in saber is debatable. He didn't beat Dooku, he didn't fight Mace in ROTS. He's the strongest in force combat? Proof?

Unable to quantify = diminish Ulic's power?

WTF?

I'm unable to quantify Ragnos' power, does that diminish him?

You can't prove jack shit from absence of proof, got it? You can't establish that he would lose to Yoda without the proof.

And the book also said that Kit's head was on the desk when Kit wasn't even decapitated. The book also said Mace slashed Sidious' saber when the movie clearly shows Mace KICKING it away.

Yoda was a victim of poor luck. But he did start on equal footing as Sidious, it's his fault that Sidious got the upperhand.

So 20 years of despotism is completely insignificant now?

What? Saying you were pwned? I would have said the same thing. Your argument hinges on a false conclusion.

When did Janus misinterpret the facts and make up his own conclusions (that were not logically valid)?

Uh... last I checked, I do too.

No, you even bullshitted that the Kun depicted stalemating Ulic would lose to Vodo.

Uhh... no. The Kun depicted losing to Vodo was AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF DARK LORDS OF THE SITH. He gets knocked on his ass, then he picks up two sabers and BREAKS VODO'S STAFF. Then Vodo goes on to say that Kun is "the most formidable student he ever had."

Know the whole story please, go read up on it.

And are you trying to argue that AFTER Kun converts to the dark side and he learns "all" the Sith Magic Freedon Nadd had to teach him that the fight would still have the same outcome as the fight with Vodo?

Tell me, when did he invent his new lightsaber form? Did he pull it out of his ass for fighting Vodo? How do you know he wasn't using it on Ulic?

Kun managed to break Vodo's staff in the very first comic. Then 5 comics later, after he converts to the dark side, after he learns a crapload of Sith Magic, after he tames the Massassi, he still can't beat Vodo? What?

Does GL have to say that Dooku lost, too? Dooku's head is still somewhere on that busted starship.

No, we call you an amateur debator because you demonstrate that level of skill in these debates.

Baseless opinion? So if someone scores a 70 on an IQ test, I would have a "baseless opinion" if I called them stupid?

tdtd

Read the post before yours. And I used those 20 years as a point, if Janus is going to say that Yoda "lost" because he couldn't destroy the sith, I can just as safely say Yoda won, because he stayed alive to train Luke Skywalker. If someone scored a 1420 on his SAT's, would you necessarily call him smart? A better example would be, if that same person scored a 152 on his LSATS, and someone scored a 700 on his SATs and a 170 on his LSATS, then who would you call stupid, since your logic is based in the numbers..

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
Read the post before yours. And I used those 20 years as a point, if Janus is going to say that Yoda "lost" because he couldn't destroy the sith, I can just as safely say Yoda won, because he stayed alive to train Luke Skywalker

Personally, I'd take 20 years as the almighty emperor than 20 years in a sh!thole like Dagobah, Luke or not.

tdtd

Originally posted by Illustrious
Personally, I'd take 20 years as the almighty emperor than 20 years in a sh!thole like Dagobah, Luke or not.

That's great and I'm proud of you.. Or whatever.. But you see my point or do you not?

Janus Marius

Yoda LOST the fight, tdtd. Stop dancing around that.

tdtd

I posted evidence for you Janus answer that.. How do you consider it a loss as opposed to a failure? Sidious didn't do anything to Yoda, it was a stalemated fight. I just threw your logic back at you but I'll do it again for your sake.
You: Yoda lost because he was unable to defeat Sidious, and destroy the sith.
Me: With that logic, Yoda won because he stayed alive and trained Luke Skywalker. If he had died, there would have been nobody to train Luke.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
I posted evidence for you Janus answer that.. How do you consider it a loss as opposed to a failure? Sidious didn't do anything to Yoda, it was a stalemated fight. I just threw your logic back at you but I'll do it again for your sake.
You: Yoda lost because he was unable to defeat Sidious, and destroy the sith.
Me: With that logic, Yoda won because he stayed alive and trained Luke Skywalker. If he had died, there would have been nobody to train Luke.
Because you're arguing semantics like a fool, tdtd. Yoda did NOT overcome and destroy Sidious. He ended up on the floor, tired, hurt, saberless, without a chance for victory. That is a LOSS. Sidious, however, had the high ground, offensive force powers, and plenty of pods to chuck. He WON.

Another example? Operation Barbarossa was an incredible victory in that the initial stages of it constituted German victory over Soviet forces. However, that lead to a counterattack which led to an occupied eastern Germany and Cold War. While I could argue out of my ass semantically that it was a victory in a sense, the reality of it is that the Germans LOST that war. Period. Yoda LOST that battle. Period. Stop being thick and realize that.

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
I posted evidence for you Janus answer that.. How do you consider it a loss as opposed to a failure? Sidious didn't do anything to Yoda, it was a stalemated fight. I just threw your logic back at you but I'll do it again for your sake.
You: Yoda lost because he was unable to defeat Sidious, and destroy the sith.
Me: With that logic, Yoda won because he stayed alive and trained Luke Skywalker. If he had died, there would have been nobody to train Luke.

Because Yoda not only did not accomplish what he set out to do, he wound up on the ground of the Senate building battered, bruised, without a saber or robes. Sidious was chilling up on a pod and guards and clonetroopers were flooding the building.

Arguing semantics is just like what Darth Somebody did, and he kept on arguing that Mace was a better "fighter" than Sidious but not a better "duelist" because Mace kicked the saber out of his hands instead of beating him with a saber. It's semantics, it's bullshit.

Janus Marius

Watch him argue that it was Yoda's mission to go in there and get tooled, just so he could barely escape and go into exile for twenty years to train Luke for maybe... a few days.

tdtd

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Watch him argue that it was Yoda's mission to go in there and get tooled, just so he could barely escape and go into exile for twenty years to train Luke for maybe... a few days.

After reading your semantics theory I have no counterargument, but don't make yourself look like a fool with the above statement. Unlike most of the morons on this forum when I see something makes sense, I shut up. On another note, youre acting as if Yoda got tooled, and as if Sidious was more powerful. I was simply telling you that from GL's commentary the fight was a stalemate(even though Yoda DID have the upper hand), and the point of the fight was to show that the best of the light side and the best of the dark side were equal.

I suppose I can say that if the fight had continued Yoda would have won, which is the way it was leaning towards, but to argue that Yoda was unrivaled is probably an exaggeration of the truth, yet I still maintain that Yoda was above Sidious, but not enough to defeat him, and certainly not as smart as him.

IKC

Originally posted by tdtd
Unlike most of the morons on this forum when I see something makes sense, I shut up.

Hilarity ensues.

tdtd

Originally posted by IKC
Hilarity ensues.

Oh yea man, everyone is having a blast laughing at star wars debates... Oh wait, just you.. But your opinion was happily noted Tucker Max.

IKC

Originally posted by tdtd
Oh yea man, everyone is having a blast laughing at star wars debates... Oh wait, just you...

Hilarity ensues again.

Originally posted by Fishy
tdtd

this is how clueless you are

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BlackDad.jpg

To clarify you are the dad in the picture

tdtd

hmm.. 1 person laughing at his own jokes... That is indeed hilarious you're right..

IKC

Originally posted by tdtd
hmm.. 1 person laughing at his own jokes... That is indeed hilarious you're right..

Wow, you're batting zero today:

Originally posted by Fishy
tdtd

this is how clueless you are

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BlackDad.jpg

To clarify you are the dad in the picture

I don't seem to recall ever suddenly transforming into Fishy and posting that.

Hilarity ensues.

tdtd

Fishy hasn't posted in 2-3 weeks, quit while you're behind.. Oh wait, denial can overcome anything right IKC?

Mom: Hi son what did you do today
IKC: Hi mom I totally wtfpwned somebody on the star wars forum today, he knows nothing about star wars, yea!
Mom: Erm...How nice son, why don't you go and play with your friends
IKC: No way mom, I'm on a role today..
Mom: :: messed

igh:::

Oh btw, i'm glad you left from the Yoda battle meditation argument when you know you were beat. That's a very honorable thing to do IKC.

tdtd

Janus, please answer my claim about proving that Kun couldn't beat Vodo with 1 saber. And if you can, prove that Kun CAN beat Vodo with 1 saber instead of asking me to prove a negative.

IKC

Originally posted by tdtd
Fishy hasn't posted in 2-3 weeks, quit while you're behind

Oh btw, i'm glad you left from the Yoda battle meditation argument when you know you were beat. That's a very honorable thing to do IKC.

Funny, I don't seem to recall ever being "behind." And I'd point out the hilarity but having irony pointed out makes it much less funny.

Oh, and I left it? Right. Which is why I posted this:

Originally posted by Illustrious
Again, Nai, I've never even seen you so much as concede a point. You'll argue until you're blue in the face even when I've proven you wrong. You won't concede that there's ever any facts because you haven't perceived them. Simply because you don't agree with my points, they are somehow false. You haven't established there is even a correlation, much less a causation. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of statistics, you've even CONTRADICTED YOURSELF with the Jedi Archives. But no, you're right. Jedi in TOTJ don't use armor. Jedi in TOTJ all use Niman. Jedi in TOTJ suck. PT Jedi pwn.

Yeah, live in your ignorant bliss. Your observation and interpretation is somehow superior to mine, your word is somehow superior to the narrator.

I guess if you still can't see the light, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as all you do is churn out broken records of what you already said without once giving me a context.

Nope. Doesn't seem like I conceded defeat, given that Illustrious' words are my sentiments exactly.

tdtd

LOL! And that has to do with battle meditation? Oh wait, you stopped posting about that right? Glad to see you posting something other than what I just mention. First I get told not to use "proof of absence" as an excuse, then you go right ahead and do the same thing in that debate.. Consistency is your friend IKC.. But since that's another debate, I'd like you to answer my question that I asked Janus, with a real response, not your typical "I'm going to ignore the question and repeat everything I say".

tdtd

Before you add a smart ass rebuttal with your 'strawman' crap, let me explain to you why I can bring into question your lack of consistency. This might be beyond your mind that's only able to apply logic as far as a star wars debate goes, but here goes. Have you ever seen the Rainmaker? If not let me explain to you my point. Let's say youre a defense lawyer and you present evidence to the court. The prosecutor objects that the evidence was stolen and therefore inadmissable, and the judge has to agree. What do you do? You find a case, any case, in which the court considered stolen evidence as admissable, and the judge has no choice but to overrule the prosecutor's objection? Understand? You can't use 1 belief for 1 situation, and a totally different belief for another situation in which your favorite character isn't being questioned in regards to his power.

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
LOL! And that has to do with battle meditation? Oh wait, you stopped posting about that right? Glad to see you posting something other than what I just mention. First I get told not to use "proof of absence" as an excuse, then you go right ahead and do the same thing in that debate.. Consistency is your friend IKC.. But since that's another debate, I'd like you to answer my question that I asked Janus, with a real response, not your typical "I'm going to ignore the question and repeat everything I say".

No, you were trying to make a conclusion based solely on absence of proof. IKC was attempting to, however convoluted, establish a syllogism that did not require concrete evidence.

Different circumstances, I don't see any inconsistency there.

tdtd

I wasn't trying to establish a conclusion solely based on the absence of proof when Janus asked me to prove a negative. But for argument's sake, how would you prove that Kun could beat Vodo with 1 saber, since all the evidence(absence of proof)points to the fact that he can't?

Janus Marius

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_25.jpg

tdtd, where does it say or show that the second edge of the blade definately gave Kun the edge over Vodo? Especially since he uses the exact same hammer blow as he does on the previous page:

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_24.jpg

See that top upper left panel? Same situation: Vodo holding his staff horizontally, blocking a hammer blow from Kun. Difference? After the Vodo declared he would not join Kun, suddenly that same hammer blow (Which does NOT take advantage of a double blade) cuts RIGHT through Vodo's staff. Absolutely nowhere does it say "Kun's second blade gives him power over momentum!". So yeah, QED.

tdtd

You're right, it doesn't say that, so that's how YOU interpret it. Again, he was never able to do anything to Vodo until he lit up that second blade correct? And he was never able to best Vodo as a Padawan with 1 saber was he? My argument that the absence of proof suggests that Kun MOST LIKELY was never able to best Vodo with 1 saber. Your proof is a way to convince yourself AND me, that the double blade had nothing to do with it.

So in conclusion, when it all comes down to it, Kun never could beat him with 1 blade, but only won when he either had dual sabers or a double blade.

hord06

Kun most likely would have eventually beat him with his one blade, but I do agree that the saber staff made it easier for him.

Illustrious

tdtd

Thank you... Now why do you agree?

tdtd

Originally posted by Illustrious
He said to make it more interesting. He still only attacked Vodo with one blade. He still only overpowered Vodo with one blade. Earlier, he used two lightsabers to do it, this time, he did it with one.

Tell me how you can possibly interpret that he needed the other end of the saber?

The fact that he could never down him while he was fighting with a single blade Illustrious. I repeat, he was never able to win with 1 blade. Now if YOU want to all of a sudden argue semantics, such as "he was using one blade" blah blah blah, that's fine, but the fact remains that Kun has needed multiple blades to defeat Vodo both times...

hord06

Originally posted by tdtd
Thank you... Now why do you agree?

I don't agree with the fact that he needed his saber staff, but I agree that the saber staff gave Kun a slight edge.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right, it doesn't say that, so that's how YOU interpret it. Again, he was never able to do anything to Vodo until he lit up that second blade correct? And he was never able to best Vodo as a Padawan with 1 saber was he? My argument that the absence of proof suggests that Kun MOST LIKELY was never able to best Vodo with 1 saber. Your proof is a way to convince yourself AND me, that the double blade had nothing to do with it.

So in conclusion, when it all comes down to it, Kun never could beat him with 1 blade, but only won when he either had dual sabers or a double blade.

No, don't try to be an empirical relativist on me now, tdtd. You are claiming that because Kun didn't simply kill Vodo with one blade that he couldn't possibly ever, period, fact. Well, the problem with that is it's ridiculous. That would be like me saying that because Yoda didn't kill Dooku in AOTC with a saber duel that lasted maybe a minute, Yoda can never ever ever kill Dooku with his lightsaber. Do you see the silliness in that stance?

Now, how the **** are you reaching that conclusion? I already SHOWED you that the second blade NEVER came into play! Hell, he doesn't even USE it! It has all the physical presence of when Bruce Lee does that crazy hand movement in Enter the Dragon- none. And he's holding the lightsaber in the middle. Unless you want to argue that a weightless second blade on the end makes the same hammer swing exponentially stronger, you have no case. You're arguing out of your ass. LOOK at the scans, tdtd. It's there. Your point is DONE. Now, practice what you preach and stfu.

Seriously... you have to be the most stubborn person in this forum, arguing in the face of evidence.

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
The fact that he could never down him while he was fighting with a single blade Illustrious. I repeat, he was never able to win with 1 blade. Now if YOU want to all of a sudden argue semantics, such as "he was using one blade" blah blah blah, that's fine, but the fact remains that Kun has needed multiple blades to defeat Vodo both times...

Yes, a second blade that he never once uses.

Does Yoda need to give Sidious a menacing glare when he turns the lightning back at Sidious? Does Sidious need to widen his eyes and open his mouth each time he blasts lightning? I think you would agree that those points are ridiculous.

So why would it be that Kun "needed" the second blade even though he never used it once on-panel?

tdtd

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, don't try to be an empirical relativist on me now, tdtd. You are claiming that because Kun didn't simply kill Vodo with one blade that he couldn't possibly ever, period, fact. Well, the problem with that is it's ridiculous. That would be like me saying that because Yoda didn't kill Dooku in AOTC with a saber duel that lasted maybe a minute, Yoda can never ever ever kill Dooku with his lightsaber. Do you see the silliness in that stance?

Now, how the **** are you reaching that conclusion? I already SHOWED you that the second blade NEVER came into play! Hell, he doesn't even USE it! It has all the physical presence of when Bruce Lee does that crazy hand movement in Enter the Dragon- none. And he's holding the lightsaber in the middle. Unless you want to argue that a weightless second blade on the end makes the same hammer swing exponentially stronger, you have no case. You're arguing out of your ass. LOOK at the scans, tdtd. It's there. Your point is DONE. Now, practice what you preach and stfu.

Seriously... you have to be the most stubborn person in this forum, arguing in the face of evidence.

When did I say that he couldn't ever defeat Vodo? I said Kun couldn't ever defeat Vodo using a single blade Janus, and I said it over and over again. Read that part before you put words into my mouth. And since we're on topic, explain to me why Kun would need a second blade at all if he can kill Vodo with 1?

Janus Marius

tdtd, you're saying that Kun can't beat Vodo with just one blade based on... the fact that he killed him with one blade with another sticking out at the same time? Talk about ignorance.

tdtd

Originally posted by Janus Marius
tdtd, you're saying that Kun can't beat Vodo with just one blade based on... the fact that he killed him with one blade with another sticking out at the same time? Talk about ignorance.

Answer my question, if he could easily kill Vodo with 1 blade, why does he need 2? And yes that's what I was saying while you were conveniently trying to put words in my mouth.

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
Answer my question, if he could easily kill Vodo with 1 blade, why does he need 2? And yes that's what I was saying while you were conveniently trying to put words in my mouth.

Where does it say he needed two? He didn't USE the second blade to beat Vodo. It was the same situation as with one blade, only this time, he is sure that Vodo will not join him.

I fail to see how having another blade sticking out the end of the lightsaber means, conclusively, that he needed it.

Like I asked, does Sidious need to widen his eyes and open his mouth each time he uses lightning?

tdtd

That doesn't answer my question. If Sidious could easily own anybody with the force, why would he need a lightsaber? If Kun could easily own anybody with 1 blade, why would he need 2?

Janus Marius

...

It's pretty clear and evident he doesn't NEED two blades since he doesn't even APPLY it. I could go ahead and speculate but then I would be committing the "TOTJ according to Janus" ideal. Maybe he wanted to impress Vodo with his ingenuity. Maybe he liked the psychological effect behind popping a second blade out of nowhere.

Or maybe he did it because he's certifiablly insane. Really, it doesn't matter. He didn't need it, and he didn't use it. QED.

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
That doesn't answer my question. If Sidious could easily own anybody with the force, why would he need a lightsaber? If Kun could easily own anybody with 1 blade, why would he need 2?

The fact of the matter is that he didn't use it.

Why do we drive $60000 cars when one that's half as expensive can accomplish the same thing?

Simply because he did show a second blade does not mean he needed it to win. Again, does Sidious need to widen his eyes and open his mouth to cast force lightning? He does it practically every time.

hord06

Janus I more or less agree with you and Illustrious, but why do you think that the second blade didn't make any difference?

tdtd

LOL.. You both are funny but I understand your points...Certifiably insane, ahahahaha..

Great Vengeance

You guys are actually attempting to teach tdtd logic? laughing

Janus Marius

Originally posted by hord06
Janus I more or less agree with you and Illustrious, but why do you think that the second blade didn't make any difference?

Well, looking at the two pages of Sith Wars #3 that I posted, it's pretty evident that the second blade didn't have any effect in the battle that was noted or evident. Hence, it didn't do anything, or if it didn, not much.

hord06

But surely the second blade would have had a huge impact on Exar Kun's style and the way he dueled?

tdtd

Hmmm I forgot about that Janus, whether he was using the 2nd blade or not, he was using his new form which was foreign to Vodo.. Maybe he got better or maybe Vodo had no defense for his form, neither one is conclusive though..

And GV, don't be mad because you were embarassed on multiple threads yesterday, and left crying. And it isn't Logic, it's logic pertaining to Star Wars, and i'm afraid I lack a lot of it based on my lack of extensive knowledge that IKC, Janus, and Illustrious have on this particular subject.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by tdtd

And GV, don't be mad because you were embarassed on multiple threads yesterday, and left crying.

Embarassed? lol...

I was exasperated with your dumbass arguments, and I had to sleep. I'll continue where we left off if you like.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
Hmmm I forgot about that Janus, whether he was using the 2nd blade or not, he was using his new form which was foreign to Vodo.. Maybe he got better or maybe Vodo had no defense for his form, neither one is conclusive though..

Yes, cuz I'm sure Vodo using a staff and training countless jedi would be totally duped if Exar Kun's lightsaber suddenly became... a staff weapon.

What a cop out, tdtd. Logic is UNIVERSAL. It's a universal tool of examining arguments. Just because you fail at logic AND you have incomplete or lacking knowledge of the subject doesn't mean you get to whine and play like "Oh, I know logic... just not Star Wars logic." lol... Seriously... "Logic pertaining to Star Wars"... You can't be for real.

tdtd

You're right Janus, because I lack the extensive knowledge of star wars, and as a result, have less logic involved in it than you, means I lack knowledge in every aspect.. Right..

And GV, if you want you can restart it but I put you on your ass and Deception and Purplesaber pretty much said what I said, but if you'd like, go for it.

IKC

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right Janus, because I lack the extensive knowledge of star wars, and as a result, have less logic involved in it than you, means I lack knowledge in every aspect.. Right..

Apparently you didn't understand his point, which was that logic is universal. There is no such thing as "Star Wars logic" or "baking logic" or "taking a shit logic." Logic applies to all.

tdtd

So are you saying I lack logic or I lack the necessary knowledge to be debating in a star wars forum?

IKC

Originally posted by tdtd
So are you saying I lack logic or I lack the necessary knowledge to be debating in a star wars forum?

I didn't say jack shit.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right Janus, because I lack the extensive knowledge of star wars, and as a result, have less logic involved in it than you, means I lack knowledge in every aspect.. Right..

Wow, you can't comprehend my simple points, can you? You DON'T use logic properly. It's not just that you lack knowledge; it's that your logical form is fubar. If you can't realize that by now, you're helpless.

tdtd

Sorry Janus, I don't have this problem in other fields. Instead of saying I don't have logic, why don't you say "You lack the knowledge to argue about star wars logically", because that makes more sense and is closer to the truth than "You don't use logic properly".

Janus Marius

If you DID use logic properly, you could realize the failures in your own logical form without having to doublecheck the evidence. That's pretty apparent, tdtd. If you took a Logics and Reasoning course, you'd know that.

tdtd

Am taking 1 now, taking the LSATS in 3 months, taking an LSAT course in a month.. What evidence? I'll be the first to admit that I skim through the posts/novels on this forum and that I'm here because this is a different aspect of debating, and I love Star Wars, not because I necessarily know nearly as much as most of you, but what I do know I can debate with ease.

Janus Marius

Right. You skim through the material and then you argue from ignorance? Does that term even ring a bell? Perhaps you should try debating once you've gotten a handle on it. Simply arguing and having an uninformed opinion doesn't constitute a "debate". Especially when, as you do, you argue strictly from opinion, don't provide logical arguments and proof, and you won't budge at all. If I walked into a Catholic church and started telling a priest that the Bible is crap and that the flood was really a metaphor and devolved into personal insults and variants of the same unsupported assertions, that would NOT be a debate. Same thing here.

Let me present the argument so you can hopefully understand it:

Claim- Exar Kun cannot defeat Vodo without two lightsabers as of The Sith Wars #3.

Proof- Exar Kun broke Vodo's staff with two lightsabers beforehand as a padawan. Later, he broke Vodo's staff and killed him and he had two blades on his lightsaber.

Problem- First example was in the past; Kun has grown since then. Second example is shown explicitly that the act of activating the second blade was purely cosmetic and didn't factor into the striking and hitting, nor did it contribute to weight to help Kun break the staff with the same strikes he used one-bladed.

Conclusion- your assertion sucks. Stop arguing out of your ass and pay attention in your logics class, because you're getting it wrong.

tdtd

No, surprisingly I understand what you and Illustrious are saying all the time, I'm just stubborn remember? And btw I didn't actually know that he didn't use the second blade because I haven't read the comic yet, because that would be reading out of order. From googling stuff I just assumed once he got his new form/saber, he was able to kill Vodo, which is partially true of the form.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by tdtd
No, surprisingly I understand what you and Illustrious are saying all the time, I'm just stubborn remember?

So is a mule.

I posted the two pages where he uses the double blade HERE. There's no excuse. Also, if you intend to make a claim on a certain event, research the event. I don't make wild claims about genetics without researching things, because that would be assinine.

You need to admit that you tried to argue without all the facts and using poor logical form and move on. Maybe this will be the wake-up call you need to pay attention in the course and strive to be a better debator, because otherwise you just come off as an uneducated, uninformed troll.

tdtd

Originally posted by Janus Marius

You need to admit that you tried to argue without all the facts and using poor logical form and move on. Maybe this will be the wake-up call you need to pay attention in the course and strive to be a better debator, because otherwise you just come off as an uneducated, uninformed troll.

That's about right.. Imagine me as as a courtroom lawyer now smile

Of course I argue with less facts than are acceptable to form a logical argument... Oh well, that's what the summer's for.

Janus Marius

Rhetoric might win some people, but for those who see deeper than skin-deep, it falls flat. Hence why constructing a solid logical argument trumps courtroom psychology any day.

tdtd

Eh that's MOSTLY true yea.. Unfortunately in today's society it's ALL about what's on the outside, so very few people are going to see deeper than skin deep, but I do get what you're sayng. On another note, how old are you Janus?

Janus Marius

Check the profile.

tdtd

Ah excellent, a year older than me.

Borbarad

Meh...I did miss the entire fun here...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_25.jpg

tdtd, where does it say or show that the second edge of the blade definately gave Kun the edge over Vodo? Especially since he uses the exact same hammer blow as he does on the previous page:

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_24.jpg

See that top upper left panel? Same situation: Vodo holding his staff horizontally, blocking a hammer blow from Kun. Difference? After the Vodo declared he would not join Kun, suddenly that same hammer blow (Which does NOT take advantage of a double blade) cuts RIGHT through Vodo's staff. Absolutely nowhere does it say "Kun's second blade gives him power over momentum!". So yeah, QED.

Have a close look, Janus. Especially on the upper picture.

On the upper left he apparently give Vodo's staff a far more harder strike than that what breaks the staff later. And then have a good look at the upper right picture...

"This is not the end, Exar Kun. You and I will fight again. Perhaps not for a long time, but I will defeat you."

Actually that pretty much sounds as if Vodo did throw the fight seeing that he couldn't win it that way - just to come back later and defeat Exar finally (which he did in the JA trilogy). I doubt that all over a sudden Exar (who is already sweating and apparently gave Vodo harder strikes before) "gets serious" and slashes through Vodo's staff which is "more powerful than a lightsaber" as stated in DLotS #1 using a less harder strike than that which he just used before.

Vodo simply couldn't know that Exar would kill him with the next blow (getting serious) with the exception for the situation that he wanted Exar to do that and therefore gave up. Otherwise that little monologue there is pretty much senseless.

Deception

Say that was true, and say that Kun was serious, it still puts him a fair bit above Vodo, he knew he couldn't win, so therefore he gave up, thus it still means Kun was and is the better duelist.

When you say that he wasn't serious, he seemed to be toying around before he activated his second blade, however once he did, he was serious and Vodo didn't last long.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Deception
Say that was true, and say that Kun was serious, it still puts him a fair bit above Vodo, he knew he couldn't win, so therefore he gave up, thus it still means Kun was and is the better duelist.

Is ANH Vader "a fair bit" above ANH Obi-Wan ?
Vodo knew he couldn't win but that doesn't actually mean he would have lost that fight fast. He would have lost, yes, but fast ?

Is this why you have already sweat running down his face before he activates the second blade (see the upper image on the right side of the second picture) ? When somebody "toys around" with a person it usually doesn't make them sweat. This also doesn't happen in a rather fast fight.

Deception

In regards to your first points i agree.

However i'll place an example, even after playing 2 minutes of a Rugby Union match, i sweat, yet that is by no means the limit of my body, i can cope and eventually reach my peak by around the 30th minute. Ok say Kun was serious, but by no means was he unleashing his full potential, nor was he even at his "peak" of his dueling ability.

In regards to my example, i'll also state that by no means are you "serious" within the first few minutes, in general you don't exhaust yourself in the beginning rather, you play at a rate in which you can see how the game goes and save your actual skills when it matters. ie half-way to the end of the game.

If by serious you mean, from the moment you step into the match you are intent on defeating the enemy without knowledge of just playing around, then i would agree. But if by serious you mean Kun was giving his all in the beginning, then i would disagree.

IKC

What a crock of shit, Nai.

Yeah. Vodo gave up. That's why he dies attempting to block Exar Kun's attack.

You're deluded and biased. I'm completely through with your unsupported assumptions and your general bullshit.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Deception
In regards to your first points i agree.

However i'll place an example, even after playing 2 minutes of a Rugby Union match, i sweat, yet that is by no means the limit of my body, i can cope and eventually reach my peak by around the 30th minute. Ok say Kun was serious, but by no means was he unleashing his full potential, nor was he even at his "peak" of his dueling ability.

In regards to my example, i'll also state that by no means are you "serious" within the first few minutes, in general you don't exhaust yourself in the beginning rather, you play at a rate in which you can see how the game goes and save your actual skills when it matters. ie half-way to the end of the game.

If by serious you mean, from the moment you step into the match you are intent on defeating the enemy without knowledge of just playing around, then i would agree. But if by serious you mean Kun was giving his all in the beginning, then i would disagree.

Well...you aren't a Jedi. wink

I don't think that he gave Vodo all he could from the beginning, but the sweat on his face indicates that he didn't take a "cakewalk" either why duelling Vodo. I mean...compare that to Dooku in AotC. Dooku:
- tossed Anakin around like a ragdoll
- fought Obi-Wan for at least a minute
- fought Anakin for another minute
- force duelled Yoda
- lightsaber duelled Yoda (for about 30 seconds)

And I didn't see sweat on his face. He "toyed around" with Anakin and Obi-Wan and then fought somebody with equal / superior skill without sweating and normally Exar should have more force power and a better physical condition compared to Dooku. Yet, Exar was sweating even before he ignited his second blade.
I won't doubt that he is better than Vodo but I don't believe he's vastly superior to his former master, especially not if you consider the fact that Vodo did put him on his ass quite effortless just a few months before.

@IKC:

Translation: "I won't look at the actual source right in front of my eyes because it might disturb my precious opionion about Kun's general uberness."

Is that why we see him stopping the fight while giving Exar a lecture about how he will return in a long time just to defeat his former student ? Is this why he knows that Exar will kill him with just the next strike when he blocked apparently harder strikes of Exar before ? Is this why all over a sudden Exar is able to break the staff that is "more powerful than a lightsaber" with a lightsaber ?

Uh-hu. If you want to see a deluded and biased person have a look at the next mirror.
You're completely through with my "unsupported assumptions and my general bullshit" ? Fine. Then I hope that you'll stop molesting me with your blatant Kun/Ulic fanboyism, senseless post-ROTJ character bashing and general ignorance of the actual source material where it contradicts your infallible opinions, Mr "Kun vs Ragnos can go either way and Ulic is far superior to Yoda in terms of lightsaber combat" IKC.

IKC

Stopping the ****ing fight? Jesus Christ, you really do see what you want to see.

How is holding up the staff in an attempt to block "stopping the fight?"

By that logic, Kun "gave up" because he casually stepped back and ignited the second blade.

So, any reason you've pulled the notion that Vodo's blocked "harder strikes" out of your ass? Oh, right, because you're the new Lightsnake, don't understand logic, and rely on unsupported assumptions.

Oh right, it couldn't possibly be because Kun overrode his Force defenses or even just powered through with physical strength. Vodo had to have given up. Nai, God of Star Wars, decrees it.

How's it feel to argue like Lightsnake, anyway? I think I'm just going to quote my responses to him, given you're making his deluded, biased, and downright ignorant arguments.

Originally posted by IKC
2) Oh yes Lightsnake, he gave up. That's why in the last panel his arms are still holding up his staff in a defensive position and Kun just powers through his staff, which Vodo made "more powerful than (a) lightsaber." Vodo knew he was beaten but he didn't give up as you assert. See, your assertions beg for proof, and there is none.

Originally posted by IKC
2) There is no evidence that one needs to prepare oneself for death, Lightsnake. Do you think Odan-Urr had a real chance to prepare himself? How about Arca? Certainly Arca had more of a chance than Odan, but not much more. Your point is groundless, there is no evidence to support it. Vodo's blocking in his final act, to try and spare his own life. Prove that Vodo gave up, for the final time.

Nai, perhaps you'd better look into one of these:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4175/unsupportedass6ke.jpg

Just a thought.

Since you're making a throwback, I'll do it too:

Lying fanboys can't save the OT/Post-OT era from sucking dick.

Janus Marius

I like that picture. And Nai, if you think Vodo blocking the same way he blocked before is giving up, you need to stop drinking before you post. WTF?

Borbarad

Originally posted by IKC
Stopping the ****ing fight? Jesus Christ, you really do see what you want to see.

How is holding up the staff in an attempt to block "stopping the fight?"

By that logic, Kun "gave up" because he casually stepped back and ignited the second blade.

Uh-hu.
How many indications of any movement do you see in this picture ?

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/vodoexar1.jpg

How many indications of any movement do you have in the close-ups of Kun's and Vodo's faces just below that ?

Oh...can it be that the right answer is none. Because, as it seems, they aren't moving but just standing there while Vodo gives Kun a nice lecture ? Yes ? So have they stopped fighting ?

Unsupported assumptions...aha...
Is this why Exar gave him that nice little swing here which doesn't brake the staff but makes Vodo nearly losing his weapon and lean backwards:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/vodoexar2.jpg

How can a downward slash coming from right in front of the user can have more kinetical energy than that swing with a greater radius applied from the side downwards ? Unless you have some picture showing that Kun moved his blade over his head before breaking Vodo's stick to gain additional momentum it's physics that pretty much destroy you little idea and not my personal opinion.

Oh. It could be that possibly Kun overrode Vodo's force defense.
Can you please tell me why Kun did it just there after we have Vodo talking about how he will die now and how he will come back after a long time to finally defeat Kun ?

But let's again just ignore half of the source material to keep our nice little opinion:
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_22.jpg

"But if I win you agree to join the Sith brotherhood and work at my side." Apparently Exar went into the fight with the idea to convert his master first. Can you please tell me, why he didn't just brake Vodo's staff before if he had the ability to do that ? Disarming Vodo would have given him the chance to either capture him (trying to convert him) or kill him if he wanted that. But he didn't do that - maybe because he just wasn't able to do it ?

And of course let's just ignore Vodo's monologue with pretty much indicates that he simply gave up but instead assume that Exar all over a sudden has the idea to brake Vodo's staff which could have led him to his goal (converting, capturing, beating Vodo) seconds after the fight started in the very same moment Vodo told him that he will return and finally defeat Kun...

Instead of assuming that Vodo simply gave up his force defence to do what he said he will do.

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
But I see...Occam's Razor doesn't apply any longer when it works against you, huh ?

Nice quotes. Did you see me arguing that Vodo used some mystical method to prepare for his death and because of that he wasn't focusing on the fight any longer and Kun was able to kill him ? No.

And there is no proof he gave up ? Did you see this picture ?

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/vodoexar1.jpg

What is he doing there ? He just acknowledges defeat and tells Kun that he will come back one day to defeat him. What is this for you ? Not giving up ? The only way to make this more obvious would be making him say "Exar Kun. If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can even imagine".
And of course he was holding his stick up. Did you just miss Kun's lightsaber being put onto it. How should he have moved that thing aside ?

I wonder how a fight between two TOTJ characters affects the PT/Post-OT era ? And I wonder even more how the guy that does refute to read past-ROTJ stuff would know anything about said era ?

Just a little advice: Lack of knowledge and the use of cheap polemics doesn't make you win debates.

@Janus:

Where is he blocking the same way ? They just stand there - not moving - than Kun kills him. Where is the block there ? Because he is holding his stick up the same way he did the entire time they stand there which he couldn't have moved aside anyways because having Kun's lightsaber put on top of it ?

Did Obi-Wan throw the fight in ANH ? By the logic you apply here he didn't because he still had his lightsaber in his hands and ignited...

Janus Marius

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_23.jpg

Hey look, Nai! Vodo blocking with his staff horizontally!

Hey look... notice that in the middle two panels the defending parties aren't moving. OMg... I guess they didn't really block! Exar Kun gave up! But fortunately, Vodo didn't take the bait and hit his blade full on. Immediately afterwards, Vodo surrenders to this awesome display of power, and he gives up. But Kun hits the staff instead!

Seriously, how deluded can you be?

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_24.jpg

Hey look! He's doing it again! The universal sign of Vodo-surrender! Or is it a block? Zomg! I have no clue!

But there's no motion. It MUST be a surrender pose!

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_25.jpg

Here it is, Nai: Vodo GIVING UP. He's in the universal bloc- erm... surrender pose. He's said his goodbyes, and everything. Why, even though he's given up, Exar Kun is still stuck in that crazy battle mode and smashes right through the staff that is in his blade's way.

You're totally right... This is EXACTLY like ANH Obi-Wan putting his saber straight up and Vader hacking him in half from the side. Exactly. Why didn't we all think of this sooner?

Pull your head out of your ass, Nai. This is ridiculous.

IKC

Janus just pwned the shit out of you, Nai.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And I wonder even more how the guy that does refute to read past-ROTJ stuff would know anything about said era?

Oh, right. I refuse to read it.

I suppose that's why I have these on hand:

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6826/dsc000669hw.th.jpg

From top to bottom, left to right:

Specter of the Past

The Last Command

Planet of Twilight

Champions of the Force

(Dark Apprentice goes here)

Jedi Search

Dark Force Rising

etc. etc. I'm sure you can read.

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7057/dsc000678rp.th.jpg

Balance Point and Darksaber

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1333/dsc000682tk.th.jpg

Oh yeah, Nai. My library is really lacking. No way am I well-read in the material at hand.

Thanks for giving me another excuse to post this:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4175/unsupportedass6ke.jpg

Better look into it.

Janus Marius

Bedside book for Bastards? What's that like? Is it as good as On Bullshit?

kamikz

Vodo's staff was said to be more powerfull than a lightsaber was it not? Then how the hell can Kun break it?

Nai is right, Vodo (when he says all about that they will meet again) is only standing there, heck, he even let's Kun hold his lightsaber OVER his staff and he doesen't do a shit about it. And as you can see, Vodo is not even holding the staff over his head, it's at his chest. If you are to parry a strike from above you lift you're weapon above you're head. Like when someone strikes you from the sides, you have to put you're sword beside the body to do a successful parry, and Obi-Wan in ANH didn't do this, same as Vodo did not hold it above his head, he let it hit him.....they do not need to be in the same pose.

And the most logical explanation is that Vodo did not longer support his staff with the froce but instead let Kun cut through it, what logic is there that Kun can smash something stronger than a lightsaber with brute strenght?

And since Kun cut him from head to toe he is bound to hit his staff to, why would he care to avoid it?

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by kamikz
Vodo's staff was said to be more powerfull than a lightsaber was it not? Then how the hell can Kun break it?

Nai is right, Vodo (when he says all about that they will meet again) is only standing there, heck, he even let's Kun hold his lightsaber OVER his staff and he doesen't do a shit about it. And as you can see, Vodo is not even holding the staff over his head, it's at his chest. If you are to parry a strike from above you lift you're weapon above you're head. Like when someone strikes you from the sides, you have to put you're sword beside the body to do a successful parry, and Obi-Wan in ANH didn't do this, same as Vodo did not hold it above his head, he let it hit him.....they do not need to be in the same pose.

And the most logical explanation is that Vodo did not longer support his staff with the froce but instead let Kun cut through it, what logic is there that Kun can smash something stronger than a lightsaber with brute strenght?

And since Kun cut him from head to toe he is bound to hit his staff to, why would he care to avoid it?

*Jumps to save Kamikz from being run over by an angry mob of SW nerds*

kamikz

Dude it's ok. That's just what I belive, but if they can proove to me that it is not like that then I'll stop talking.

IKC

Bedside Book of Bastards. It's pretty tremendous. I'll snap a shot of the table of contents:

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4277/dsc000692tx.th.jpg

Janus Marius

Originally posted by kamikz
Vodo's staff was said to be more powerfull than a lightsaber was it not? Then how the hell can Kun break it?

Apparently Kun > Vodo's Staff > Lightsaber. Except while a lightsaber likely can't be disrupted or destroyed by another lightsaber, the staff is MADE stronger by Vodo's control of the Force. If Kun breaks it, it means he overpowers Vodo's control of the Force.

Unless you think the narrator was lying.

Apparently the concept that comics are done in still frames eluded you. We SEE Kun's lightsaber hovering over his staff, but if you think it's a five minute pause instead of an instant still frame, you have a lot to learn about comics. There's motion there. Just because it's not an animation doesn't mean there isn't motion there.

For that second, yes. And later, when Kun hammerstrikes him, it's over his head. Like he blocked it the last few times. Vodo comes up to Kun's naval; he's going to be blocking high or mid level.

Don't be silly; Vodo WAS blocking the attacks, and properly. The fact that Kun cut THROUGH Vodo's staff to kill him implies that there was some blocking going on. If you don't believe in this and you want to argue against the comics, go join Nai for another drink.

See above. Kun > Vodo's enhanced staff > lightsaber strength.

Vodo was blocking each hit beforehand using his staff. Apparently, he felt he could use that staff to defeat Exar Kun. He certainly wasn't there to TALK him out of being a Sith Lord. Don't be daft- Kun overpowered the staff and Vodo in turn. Period.

If vodo wasn't moving, why hit it?

kamikz

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Apparently Kun > Vodo's Staff > Lightsaber. Except while a lightsaber likely can't be disrupted or destroyed by another lightsaber, the staff is MADE stronger by Vodo's control of the Force. If Kun breaks it, it means he overpowers Vodo's control of the Force.

Unless you think the narrator was lying.

Apparently the concept that comics are done in still frames eluded you. We SEE Kun's lightsaber hovering over his staff, but if you think it's a five minute pause instead of an instant still frame, you have a lot to learn about comics. There's motion there. Just because it's not an animation doesn't mean there isn't motion there.

For that second, yes. And later, when Kun hammerstrikes him, it's over his head. Like he blocked it the last few times. Vodo comes up to Kun's naval; he's going to be blocking high or mid level.

Don't be silly; Vodo WAS blocking the attacks, and properly. The fact that Kun cut THROUGH Vodo's staff to kill him implies that there was some blocking going on. If you don't believe in this and you want to argue against the comics, go join Nai for another drink.

See above. Kun > Vodo's enhanced staff > lightsaber strength.

Vodo was blocking each hit beforehand using his staff. Apparently, he felt he could use that staff to defeat Exar Kun. He certainly wasn't there to TALK him out of being a Sith Lord. Don't be daft- Kun overpowered the staff and Vodo in turn. Period.

If vodo wasn't moving, why hit it?

1. But how exactly could he break it? I don't get what you mean, that he puts the force into his strenght or that he breaks Vodo's will?

2. Guess I have alot to learn then....

4. Sorry, I'm underage....

5. I just remembered that other comic, where they sparred and Kun broke his lightsaber. That was what I needed to know, cause I thought there was no logic in Kun breaking his staff (which was stronger than a lightsaber) except if Vodo let him, but he woulden't have let him do it in a sparring duel so.......

And I lack knowledge of Kun's era, so I won't keep talking.
Thanks......

Deception

Its more than likely that the Force Kun possessed completely overpowered Vodo's control, thus making him unable to hold off against Kun's saber. Its the same concept as this : I'm in a fight with you, I have greater strength, and when i hit you with all i can and you block there is a huge chance you wont be able to block me, and thus you fail.

Jonathan Mark

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1377/47ty.jpg

Borbarad

Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_23.jpg

Hey look, Nai! Vodo blocking with his staff horizontally!
Hey look... notice that in the middle two panels the defending parties aren't moving. OMg... I guess they didn't really block! Exar Kun gave up! But fortunately, Vodo didn't take the bait and hit his blade full on. Immediately afterwards, Vodo surrenders to this awesome display of power, and he gives up. But Kun hits the staff instead!

Seriously, how deluded can you be?

Hey look, Janus! He's attacking Kun. Is this the scene were Kun totally dominates and saber-rapes him ? And of course they aren't moving. They just leave image blurs by standing still. Wow. How much ignorance can somebody show ?

Oh, great. Kun still not moving while leaving image blurs. Must be a good trick to leave signs for movement without actually moving anyway in contrary to the last picture, huh ?

Again: How often do you want to ignore Vodo's speech there ?
How often do you want to ignore the fact that - if he could have pwn Vodo's force defence - would have done that little thing before ?
How much ignorance for the little fact that Vodo couldn't have known the moment Kun pwns his force defence do you want to display ?

Man...you are arguing a position in which Vodo apparently remained for seconds and you call that a block ? WTF ? You have no blurs left by the saber / the staff like in all the pictures before but they must have moved ?

And Vodo just acknowledges defeat before he is beaten. But he wanted to continue the fight and tried to block Kun's final blow - that's why he isn't moving one centrimetre but keeps holding it's staff were it was the entire time ?

More polemics you want to feed me, Janus ?
I'm done here...I've always thought that arguing human walls is a waste of my precious free-time.

Deception

Well, Vodo did fight Exar Kun with the intent to stop him, however its quite clear within the fight Vodo knew he was going to lose, he could do nothing but defend against Kun's blows, and eventually when Kun actually unleashed more of his power Vodo couldn't defend it and was killed.

Now, i do realise my error in considering Kun was "toying" with him, all in respects Kun was not unleashing his full power in he was serious about winning the fight as soon as he unleashed his saber. However when Kun actually depicted more of his power Vodo stood no chance whatsoever.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Deception
Well, Vodo did fight Exar Kun with the intent to stop him, however its quite clear within the fight Vodo knew he was going to lose, he could do nothing but defend against Kun's blows, and eventually when Kun actually unleashed more of his power Vodo couldn't defend it and was killed.

Yes. Vodo did fight Exar with the intention to stop him. I won't argue that Kun is superior to Vodo in terms of combat because otherwise Vodo would have stopped him. On the other hand, as far as we see, Kun went into the fight with the intention to defeat and then convert Vodo in a "rematch" like the one in which Vodo did beat him before and that means one lightsaber vs Vodo's staff...so apparently Kun crossed his self-limitations by igniting the second blade and he didn't get what he wanted.

You can't enter a fight when not being serious about winning. To me it looks like as if Exar overestimated his own powers/saber ability (thinking he could pwn Vodo rather easily), then ignited his second blade (which was a surprise for Vodo) and then Vodo realized that winning is not possible and so he stopped trying to defeat Kun. Otherwise - as I've said before - neither the fight before (where Vodo attacked Kun) nor Vodos monoloque do make any sense.

And still I don't see why Kun shouldn't have broken Vodo's staff before if he could do that on his own. He clearly wanted to defeat his master (doesn't matter if for the reason to convert or for the reason to kill him). Simply disarming him would have ended that fight instantly. Why waste time until you sweat instead of pwn your oponent with your first strike - especially when you wanted to demonstate your general uberness right in front of the entire Senate and have several Jedi watching the fight ?

IKC

Originally posted by Deception
Now, i do realise my error in considering Kun was "toying" with him

This is no error. He was.

Nai's deluded and apparently cannot read. How about you read the substance of Janus' posts and then realize that you're arguing that Kun moved, when Janus was talking about Vodo not moving?

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4175/unsupportedass6ke.jpg

Please. We can help.

P.S.

How are you dealing with that foot in your mouth after I showed my material?

Borbarad

Originally posted by IKC
This is no error. He was.

Nai's deluded and apparently cannot read. How about you read the substance of Janus' posts and then realize that you're arguing that Kun moved, when Janus was talking about Vodo not moving?

Of course Vodo isn't moving:
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/vodonotmoving.jpg

What's this then ? Does he just lose hairs or something ?

Wasn't that you who said multiple times that he will never touch one of the NJO books and the post-ROTJ EU with exclusion of the Thrawn trilogy sucks ? How could I develop the idea that you know jack shit about the post-ROTJ era when every of your post regarding to that topic just indicates this ? I really don't know...

Yeah...you totally pwned me....by owning 6 of totally 124 (hope that number is correct, just counted my material) OT / post-OT sources ! Nice "foot in my mouth"...really. As I told you before: Cheap polemics don't win debates for you.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Borbarad

Yeah...you totally pwned me....by owning 6 of totally 124 (hope that number is correct, just counted my material) OT / post-OT sources ! Nice "foot in my mouth"...really. As I told you before: Cheap polemics don't win debates for you.

Damn, better get the fire dept. in here...

tdtd

I counted 6-7 personal attacks with that lovely commercial in the paragraph... One of you is drunk.

Borbarad

Originally posted by IKC
Good work taking a scan from a scene that Janus wasn't arguing. Put your glasses on, the beer down, and read his ****ing argument.

Lmao. I suggest you put on your glasses because this one:
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/vodonotmoving.jpg

is clearly a part of that one:
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_24.jpg

Good way not having a look at what's going on...

Nice observation of "ad hominem" argumentation where it wasn't present.

No. That's what you constantly post-ROTJ bashing (especially Luke) combined with you constant ignorance and contradiction of the post-OT sources translates to.

Nice try considering that this was coming from the guy who's 1-bit brain capacity enables him to give wrong answers to mathematical problems which only consist of the mind-blowing addition of two one-digit numbers - and that in just 3 hours !

Go and get yourself "SourceIgnorances" newly developed IE-"Bullshit your way through"-Add-On 2.7 with "opinion filtre" and "inconvenient fact overwrite" to beat everyone in debates. Or just enable yourself to ignore even the brightest truth shining from your monitor with LogicBans newly developed sunglasses (seen in M.I.B - Man I'm Blind).

Really, IKC. Getting angry that fast ? You pathetic attempt to insult me was pretty...pathetic. Maybe I will take you serious again when you've learned how to act like an adult, kid.

X-Wing series (= 9 books)
The Courtship of Princess Leia
Tatooine Ghost
Thrawn trilogy (= 3 books)
Jedi Academy trilogy (= 3 books)
I, Jedi
Callista trilogy (=3 books)
The Crystal Star
Black Fleet Trilogy (=3 books)
The New Rebellion
Corellia Trilogy (= 3 books)
Hand of Thrawn (= 2 books)
Junior Jedi Knight series (= 6 books)
Survivor's quest
Young Jedi Knight series (complete = 14 books)
NJO series (= 19 books)
DN trilogy ( = 3 books)

= 74 books

+ comics:
X-Wing rouge leader (3 comics)
Dark Empire I+II (12 comics)
Boba Fett Series (4 comics)
Empires End (2 comics)
Crimson Empire I+II (12 comics)
The Bounty Hunters (1 comic)
Leviathan (4 comics)
Union (4 comics)
Chewbacca (4 comics)

= 46 comics (+ books = 120)

And the Guides for Chronology, Characters, Vehicles and Vessels, Weapons and Technology (= 4 + 120 = 124).

Enough ? That's of course still missing E-Books like Recovery / Ylesia (NJO series) or Forrest Apart, as well as the comic versions of the Thrawn trilogy.

I did miss the first picture (with the Thrawn / JA trilogy) and just saw Vector Prime, Survivors Quest, Vision of the Future, Balance Point and Darksaber. And you counted 20 post-OT novels ?

You have the 5 I've counted + Champions of the force, Jedi search, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command, Planet of Twilight and Spectre of the Past. I was talking about post-OT, dude. And that are 11, not 20. Who's drinking here and has double vision again ? Uh-hu. Thought so....

And do another research on the term "polemic" especially relating to sophists philosophy - you might figure out what I'm talking about.

IKC

Again, put your glasses on, the beer down, and read his ****ing argument.

He clearly was indicating the top panels when he was talking about, *gasp*, VODO BLOCKING.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess you don't know what ad hominem tu quoque is.

I'll enlighten you:

This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
3. Therefore X is false.

Yeah. My ignorance is astounding to be sure. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Mind pointing out where I'm "contradicting" the post-OT sources? I can sure point out where you've made shit up regarding post-OT sources.

Uh, what the **** are you talking about? May I ask where I've ever argued basic math, or even so much as posted anything mathematical?

You're really hitting the bottle hard lately.

Wow. At least mine was funny and applicable to the target. Yours, not so much. Ironically, it applies quite nicely apply to you, though.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Again, Nai, I've never even seen you so much as concede a point. You'll argue until you're blue in the face even when I've proven you wrong. You won't concede that there's ever any facts because you haven't perceived them. Simply because you don't agree with my points, they are somehow false. You haven't established there is even a correlation, much less a causation. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of statistics, you've even CONTRADICTED YOURSELF with the Jedi Archives. But no, you're right. Jedi in TOTJ don't use armor. Jedi in TOTJ all use Niman. Jedi in TOTJ suck. PT Jedi pwn.

Yeah, live in your ignorant bliss. Your observation and interpretation is somehow superior to mine, your word is somehow superior to the narrator.

I guess if you still can't see the light, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as all you do is churn out broken records of what you already said without once giving me a context.

Oh yeah Nai. I'm stomping around and waving my arms around because "zOMG teh germ@n n000b doesn't agr33 w!th m3!!!011!!ELEVEN." Sure thing.

And is calling me a kid supposed to really... do anything? You're all of four years older than me. My response? BFD. At the very least, I've developed and have applied my capacity for logic. You, though, seem to be lagging.

Maybe it's a language thing.

I like how you're adding comic books and essential guides to the list of OT/Post-OT novels.

By that logic, the Star Wars Encyclopedia and the very outdated "Guide to Star Wars" (2nd edition) are a part of that list.

And you're missing the entire Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy (3 books), Heir to the Empire (not pictured), Dark Apprentice, and the "Tales" books.

Your original quote:

However, my original quote included the OT as well. Hence, the "Tales" books are included. 20.

The point stands: You asserted that I "(didn't) know anything" about the era. You are wrong.

Oh yeah, I'm going to be told the definition of an English word by a guy who tells me to "do another research."

Read the definition, you'll see you have no idea what you're talking about.

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4175/unsupportedass6ke.jpg

Yeah. You need this.

tdtd

You kids are so vicious to one another.

Faunus

The racial insults, IKC? Over the top.

tdtd

Indeed, some of you just get so angry when someone disagrees with you....Sigh.. What a complicated world we live in.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by Faunus
The racial insults, IKC? Over the top.

I didn't notice any racial insults, Faunus. Granted, there was a lot of insulting in that post, but Nai can handle himself (I would assume).

And really, do you HAVE to be angry to make posts like that? I don't think so. I don't fret one minute about these arguments nor do I get angry, and as you can see I can be just as bad.

tdtd

I agree, Janus has made me cry many a time.

Revolver Ocelot

So wait, Bombarad is German?

tdtd

I always thought he was chinese..

Faunus

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I didn't notice any racial insults, Faunus. Granted, there was a lot of insulting in that post, but Nai can handle himself (I would assume).

And really, do you HAVE to be angry to make posts like that? I don't think so. I don't fret one minute about these arguments nor do I get angry, and as you can see I can be just as bad.

The ''german n00b'' and lingual insults seemed pretty close to racial slurs, Janus.

And I doubt anyone with real values in life would get excessively worked up over one of these arguments. But the insults aren't really necessary, imho, and they tend to give the wrong message to everyone.

Janus Marius

Originally posted by Faunus
The ''german n00b'' and lingual insults seemed pretty close to racial slurs, Janus.

No, they're not. At worst, they're ethnic slurs, and not very serious ones at that. I've said similar things in the past with Nai and with Fishy, and that didn't warrant any tension.

In a sense, I agree. And in a sense, ribbing on one another is a large part of what we do here. If he was Numan, you likely wouldn't be as worked up. Now, Nai's a grown guy and can sling insults just as well as he can take them. If he thinks their over the top jokes, than that's his call. But I saw them as being pretty damn light; certainly not as bad as some of the stuff we've done to Numan, or Vercetti, or Lightsnake or Dan the man.

tdtd

or ahem ahem.

Janus Marius

Or tdtd.

tdtd

I've had to seek counseling, various medication, and a priest, all after being on this wretched forum..

Janus Marius

A priest, huh? No wonder you can't sit down for two seconds.

Faunus

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, they're not. At worst, they're ethnic slurs, and not very serious ones at that. I've said similar things in the past with Nai and with Fishy, and that didn't warrant any tension.

Fair enough. I just don't see remarks relating one's ''ethnicity'' to their capabilities as fair at all. Meh, whatever. As you said, Nai can handle himself.

Calling people daft I could care less about, as I've done that myself in the past hundred posts. It's some of the more personal remarks that I disagree with, and I've never seen anyone else commit themselves to those.

Vercetti? The guy's first thread had an introductory post bashing me. Lightsnake and Numan were just completely out of wack. I wasn't even here for the DanTheMan conflicts.

But yeah, I suppose they weren't overly aggressive. Again, I just don't see the need for general, unprovoked bashing. Whatever, though, this is between Nai and IKC.