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Can Vodo dispatch or will Vader triumph over the ancient grandmaster?

Vodo wins.

wow and such a convincing argument.

Indeed. Heed my words.

I would have to say Vodo. He was possibly the Grand Master of the Jedi Order of his time (not proven, but possible) and was quite a significant swordsman despite his age, like Yoda. Vader most likely cannot match him.

I say Vader until proved otherwise. What has Vodo shown us using the force (I'm a bit rusty on most of my comics)?

He beat down Exar Kun with a stick before the boy was a Sith Lord, and even said that Kun was his most promising student, or something to that effect.

Crippled old Vader wouldn't win.

If you read the Crimson Empire you may change your mind about Vader's saber skills.

Vodo's big issue is his major lack of being able to make a dent on Vader with his staff...with his 'hands', could he even wield a saber? Vader's a damn strong guy, too.

And Vodo was most certainly not the grandmaster...grandmasters tend to be leading orders, not hanging out with three trainees on backwater worlds. It's unknown if there even was a grandmaster in those times.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo's big issue is his major lack of being able to make a dent on Vader with his staff...with his 'hands', could he even wield a saber?

The narration says Vodo's staff is "stronger than a lightsaber". He was also able to take Exar Kun out with relative ease, showing he knows how to put that staff to the test. And really, all he needs to do is cut Vader off from the force or hit him on his chestplate and it's KO.



Yes, but limited in movement and certainly not superior in duelling knowledge to Vodo.



Vodo was quite influential, and while it's likely that someone older like Odan Urr was the head of the jedi order, it was Vodo who really called the shots. Vodo who confronted Kun. Vodo who was a visible figure. He was very likely the de facto leader of the order.

Well... 40 years later they had a formal Council, a formal leader (Vrook), so MAYBE they had a Grandmaster.

Vodo was a unorthodox Jedi. I guess me prematurely calling him the Grandmaster of the Order may be due to my impression of the guy.

He took Kun out when Kun was his padawan and that wasn't what I'd call a final defeat...that's a LONG time before Kun surrenders to the dark side. Vodo's wall of light technique could also take some time...which could be invariably fatal if he pauses in the fight. Even if Vodo's staff was stronger than the saber, it still broke...the weapon does not a fight make. And would Vodo even know what the buttons on Vader's chest plate mean?

Oh, Vader's also pretty dang fast, and his dueling knowledge is nothing to scoff at. He became a Djem So specialist, the finest Dooku'd ever seen to quote an EU source. And he was quite the fighter. What're Vodo's duelist credentials, though? We also saw Torr Snappit, in Jedi vs. Sith empower his staff and we saw Vodo fight only a couple of times.


When was it even hinted Vodo called the shots? Odan was described as the spokesman for the Order, but nothing more than that. Vodo confronted Kun because he knew Kun and knew Kun was the mastermind, it was nothing to do with leading the Order, Vodo said himself, only he knew and only he could confront Kun as he once taught him...they had a connection. I don't recall Vodo calling many shots either...you could argue his silence got a lot of people killed, too. He's never even hinted to be a leader of the Order

Vader was actually quite an accomplished duelist himself.

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/CrimsonEmpire/crismonempiore_01_24.jpg

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/CrimsonEmpire/crismonempiore_01_25.jpg

Yeah, Vader wasn't just some old cripple. He was powerful as all hell.

Vodo defeated little Exar, Vader... ummm... http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=13&f=36&s=go&name=Purge

Little Exar? Exar who was the "most formidable student (Vodo) ever had?"

Sorry. Vader overcoming the Jedi of his time doesn't mean he outclasses Vodo. Vodo will likely strip him of the Force and lay the beatdown with his staff shortly after.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t392447.html

Yes, little Exar, because any student in no way compares to the DlotS Exar becomes. And once again, Vodo'd need to perform that attack first.

Oh, so we're going to completely disregard the fact that even as an apprentice he was the most formidable student that Vodo has ever had? Good job. Can I borrow those blinders next time I'm stuck in a corner?

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9528/vodoblock0jf.th.jpg
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Yeah Lightsnake. Because that attack takes oh so much time.

Vader gets WTFpwned.

Actually how can you even tell how long it takes?

Mostly because Odan-Urr "immediately" knows he's in the presence of a threat and lashes out with the attack. It's close to instant.

Why didn't you show scans of that instead of Vodo?

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Well... 40 years later they had a formal Council, a formal leader (Vrook), so MAYBE they had a Grandmaster.

Vodo was a unorthodox Jedi. I guess me prematurely calling him the Grandmaster of the Order may be due to my impression of the guy.

Vrook wasn't the grandmaster. I am pretty sure it was Vandaar.

Uh, I did show a scan of that. How about you look at it? It's the second one.

Yes, now let's take the proof he was lashing out with the same attack because all that seemed ODan used was a force push...and isn't it great how that isn't the same wall of light ability Vodo and Nomi are using? One took Ulic's power from him, one bound him temporarily, and neither Jedi were personally fighting him..wasn't Ulic surrounded at the time and being teamed up on by...how many Jedi? And, I fail to see how what Nomi uses on Ulic is any way, shape, or form similar to what Odan's using, since ODan's powers apparently worked on Ancient Sith. And considering Exar is declaring himself the 'true owner' of a Sith holocron reacting to him, Odan could safetly assume he wasn't Feeder of Kittens and Orphans

Originally posted by Lightsnake
wasn't Ulic surrounded at the time and being teamed up on by...how many Jedi?

If you're referring to when Ulic gets stripped (of his Force, not clothes ) then no, he was surrounded by like who? Tott and Nomi? And, Tott was trying to tell Nomi to chill out, notice he says "...hasn't there been enough--", but Nomi already was in the process of using (and basically completed when he was cut off) the technique on Ulic.

I meant when Ulic was taken down by Vodo and the other Jedi

Jesus fing Christ, Lightsnake. I'm glad you know so much about the source material...

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

Huh, looks like he's teaching Nomi Sunrider the force blocking technique...

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

OH EM GEE! CONTEXT! Looks like it's not a force push to anybody that knows how to read narration and dialogue! Wow. Fancy that!

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9528/vodoblock0jf.th.jpg

And now we see narrative proof that Vodo knows the very same technique! Gee. Only a total dumbass could think that this wasn't the same technique! Oh, wait...

Teamed up by how many jedi? Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy. Odan could do it by himself, Vodo knows the same technique. Ergo, Vodo can do it by himself. Corrolation is not causation, the number of Jedi present is not relevant unless it can be established that that number was needed.



Factually incorrect. I'm glad you have such a great grasp of the source material, though.



Uh, unless you're going somewhere with this (and I fail to see where you could possibly be going), irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.

That's great, I'm sure in all her time there he'd taught her just the one thing. I'm sure 'reaching into the light' refers to just one ability that, in practice is a lot different than what Odan's throwing at Kun there. If it could affect Ancient Sith, Kun is having any chance how?

And is that text saying the other Jedi are adding their powers to Vodo, TEMPORARILY imprisoning Vodo? Point is, that you assume Vodo could do it by himself, when he and the other Jedi 'temporarily' block Ulic together, when he;s surrounded and not fighting...and considering ODan could use that technique-which, when Nomi does it looks a bit different in execution...Nomi heard about it once from Odan, it's not something she practiced on a regular basis; you're telling me, Nomi could use this technique when Odan's fails, and Odan has used it on Ancient Sith in the past?

Dudes you can't argue with the Japanese woman or she will summon Sephiroth who will then drop a meteor on our heads.

Uh, considering that the Kun's intrusion occurs directly after he teaches her the technique and the narration tells us he's using said technique (because it is the only technique taught to Nomi that is attributed directly to Odan-Urr anywhere in TOTJ) then we can safely say that it is the same ****ing technique. Get it through your head, read the scans.

As for how does Kun have a chance... obviously, he's either too powerful for Odan or, (and we have reason to believe this) he knows a defense against it, given that he was able to restore Ulic's force abilities after rescuing him.



Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.

Ad hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this), logical fallacy.

You would first have to establish that those Jedi were necessary to imprison Ulic. You can't, because there's no evidence for it.

However, because Odan was able to attempt the technique by himself and Nomi was able to perform it by herself and because we have narrative confirmation that Vodo knows the technique... Vodo can do it by himself.

QED.

Teaches her? She's totally shocked the first time she uses it...he pretty much tells her about it once. And where does it say "He tries to block Exar Kun from the force?" 'Reaching into the light' doesn't strike me as making a wall of light....and what? Able to restore Ulic's force abilities? Able to defend against a technique Naga's ilk couldn't?

It doesn't matter if they were needed to imprison Ulic because you'd probably be the first to claim every Jedi was needed to stop Kun. And the word 'temporarily', see it? Nothing proves at all, the blocking was permanent, and Ulic doesn't freak out like he did the time he was truly blocked.

And because A=B, B= C? Logical fallacy, try again. There's no evidence Vodo couldn't done it by himself

Arguing with the omniscient narrator? Head up your ass, much?

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

Read again.

And do you have an explanation as to how Ulic's force powers are miraculously restored after Kun rescues him? No? Then I guess we're going to go with my supported assumption.



Ad hominem tu quoque, logical fallacy. Hell, I haven't even said that, so your logical fallacy isn't even accurate.

Hm. Actually, you committed the logical fallacy of Poisoning the Well.

Indeed, the word "temporarily" appears to still be in effect even during his own trial. Given he was still blocked from the Force until after Kun's rescue, it's a supported assumption that Kun restored his abilities especially since Kun was able to resist or otherwise thwart Odan's attempt.



You don't even know how to identify them correctly. Sorry, but you're committing ad hoc, ergo propter hoc. Burden of proof lies with you that those extra Jedi were necessary.

My assertion that they weren't is backed up by Odan and Nomi's evidence and the narration from the scene itself. Have a good time trying to support your position with... nothing.

What part of "He taught her more about reaching into the light and techniques than a single page of discussing a technique' are you just not hearing?

And when were Ulic's force powers gone? Arguing with the narrarator? "Temporary."

Where was Ulic blocked following his trial? It was a temporary wall of light. Maning it wasn't permanent, meaning it wasn't the technique Nomi used later.

And it's your burden of proof Vodo could do it by himself. I said they overwhelmed Ulic, want to try to argue that?

What part of "he's using the only technique he is said to have taught Nomi Sunrider about (how to block people from the Force)" do you not understand?

Bad reading comprehension, much?



Oh, I'd say about from here:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9528/vodoblock0jf.th.jpg

To the time after Kun rescues him.



Except not, because they're the same technique with varying degrees of magnitude as proven by the narration and dialogue.



No, it's your burden of proof that those Jedi are necessary for Vodo to perform the technique at all. As shown with Nomi and Odan, they are not.

Spend more time on your posts. Those four lines were uninspiring, Ferrous Cranus.

I'll see if you've posted anything remotely challenging or if you're still wandering in vain search of a thought in about 30 minutes.

I don't know, what part of 'prove he was using that same exact technique that he'd only just TOLD her about' are you incapable of doing?

And once more: Temporary wall of light. So his powers weren't permanently blocked. Meaning you have no proof Kun restored them

You're the one making grandiose clams, buddy boy...I think you should put up or shut up: Prove Vodo could do it on his own. If Kun could 'resist' it on his own, why would Ulic be unable to exactly? Wait...maybe because it's not the exact same technique and the one Nomi used cut him off completely while the other just blocked him temporarily? Just look how he freaks out after Nomi blocks him.

Well, it appears you haven't found a thought yet.

I suppose I'll just recap everything so even vacant skulls can see it:

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

As we see in the previous three scans from narration and dialogue, Odan-Urr is teaching Nomi Sunrider how to block people from the Force - a technique she'll eventually use on Ulic Qel-Droma in permanent form.

We also see that such an attack, even though it apparently was effective against the Ancient Sith, did precisely zilch to Kun other than push him back, to which Kun responds by killing Odan.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9528/vodoblock0jf.th.jpg

As we see in this scan, Vodo knows the very technique in question.

Because correlation is not causation

and

because Nomi could perform it by herself

and

Odan could perform it by himself

and

Vodo is stated by the omniscient narrator to know how to use said technique,

then

Vodo can use said technique by himself.

Your subjective observations as to the appearance and apparent effects of said attacks are irrelevant and do not override this narrative evidence.

Your objections that Vodo happened to perform the technique on Ulic with the help of other Jedi are based on a logical fallacy because you can only show correlation and not causation.

Your assertion that Vodo cannot perform the technique by himself is unfounded: Nomi, a subordinate of his in rank and power, was able to do so just fine.

Conclusion: Vodo can and will use this technique to strip the Force from Darth Vader and will win this fight.

QED.

Vrook wasn't the grandmaster. I am pretty sure it was Vandaar.

I wouldn't say grandmaster, but he seemed to be the one in charge.

Damn. Pwnt.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Vrook wasn't the grandmaster. I am pretty sure it was Vandaar.

I wouldn't say grandmaster, but he seemed to be the one in charge.

Well in KOTOR Vandaar seemed to be the one calling the shots. Vrook was given more command in KOTOR 2. (Mainly because Vandaar was thought to be dead)

Really? I thought Zhar would be the highest authority in KOTOR1... I mean, he was the one charged with the task of retraining Revan.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Really? I thought Zhar would be the highest authority in KOTOR1... I mean, he was the one charged with the task of retraining Revan.

Well, that doesn't put him in a position of authority. It could well be that Zhar was the "padawan trainer" of the order. Sort of like Cin Drallig.

Vandaar would be more like the Yoda of the order.

Neither seemed to have that much power. I always thought it was more of a triumvirate between Zhar, Vrook and Vandar...

I doubt there was a Grandmaster in KOTOR times. Nomi was probably leading them until just near the KOTOR time and maybe even during some of it. She was the defacto leader of the Order.

Anyway, this thread seems ridiculous, Vodo pwns Vader.

Originally posted by IKC
Well, it appears you haven't found a thought yet.

I suppose I'll just recap everything so even vacant skulls can see it:

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

As we see in the previous three scans from narration and dialogue, Odan-Urr is teaching Nomi Sunrider how to block people from the Force - a technique she'll eventually use on Ulic Qel-Droma in permanent form.

We also see that such an attack, even though it apparently was effective against the Ancient Sith, did precisely zilch to Kun other than push him back, to which Kun responds by killing Odan.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9528/vodoblock0jf.th.jpg

As we see in this scan, Vodo knows the very technique in question.

Because correlation is not causation

and

because Nomi could perform it by herself

and

Odan could perform it by himself

and

Vodo is stated by the omniscient narrator to know how to use said technique,

then

Vodo can use said technique by himself.

Your subjective observations as to the appearance and apparent effects of said attacks are irrelevant and do not override this narrative evidence.

Your objections that Vodo happened to perform the technique on Ulic with the help of other Jedi are based on a logical fallacy because you can only show correlation and not causation.

Your assertion that Vodo cannot perform the technique by himself is unfounded: Nomi, a subordinate of his in rank and power, was able to do so just fine.

Conclusion: Vodo can and will use this technique to strip the Force from Darth Vader and will win this fight.

QED.

Because 'telling her about it once' equals studious lessons, right?

Once more: Proof it was the blocking technique, because the blocking has ever been shown to be unblockable, worked on people stronger than Kun apparently, and, oh yeah: Odan'd been teaching Nomi for a while. Not to mention the attack doesn't force push the victim.

Yeah, Vodo knows it. Why didn't he try it on his ex-student and pwn him in the battle? Could it be because Vodo is an ineffective master and fails to do practically anything right in the whole debacle? Why don't you prove Vodo could have bested Ulic on his own? I never said he needed the other JEdi, I said Ulic was overwhelmed by six Jedi temporarily imprisoning him...and I noticed you're not going on about how Kun 'restored' Ulic's powers. Prove that Kun even knew about that technique, which apparently defeated his betters in the past. And once more, Vodo'll pause in a fire and prepare an attack on Vader? Moment Vodo lowers his weapon, he loses his head. Oh, yeah, and considering Vodo's shown a lack of that technique when it actually mattered...

It appears you've yet to approach anything remotely resembling a coherent thought. As that is the case, my points stand, and I'll simply amuse myself in pointing out your logical fallacies.



Disputing the authority (the narrator being the final authority).



Disputing the authority.



Incoherency (irrelevant misdirection, really), logical fallacy. What the hell does this even mean? Even if I change "ever" to "never" it still doesn't make any sense in the context of this argument and its unsupported by the material itself.



Begging the question, logical fallacy. Did you perhaps consider that Kun was stronger than the ancient Sith Odan used it on or perhaps he discovered a method to block the attack?



I'm very much tempted to call this begging the question, given that I've only seen her taught by Arca, Thon, and briefly by Vodo other than in the scene I've posted numerous times.



Begging the question, disputing the authority, logical fallacies. Odan's use of it pushed Kun back, QED.



Appeal to ridicule, logical fallacy. Begging the question, logical fallacy. Red herring, logical fallacy.



Burden of proof, logical fallacy. Red herring, logical fallacy.

It's already been proven that the technique can be used by only one practitioner. Whether or not Vodo can do it against Qel-Droma is irrelevant, Vader is not Qel-Droma.



Begging the question, logical fallacy. Disputing the authority.

I see logical extrapolations are beyond you:

"Did you perhaps consider that Kun was stronger than the ancient Sith Odan used it on or perhaps he discovered a method to block the attack?"



False premise, the attack was shown to work almost instantly, with zero preparation time necessary when it was both attempted and used successfully.



Red herring, logical fallacy. I like how you assume it would have worked on Kun despite the fact that it failed when Odan tried it. Of course, you could pull your head out of your ass and reason that Vodo knew Kun to be too powerful/knowledgeable for the attack to work, but that'd be asking too much of you.

Still wandering around in vain search of a thought, Lightsnake. Rather sad, actually.

Well said.

IKC, using your logic Vrook or the other jedi that try to strip zayne from the force in KOTOR2 would WTFpwn Vader.

Originally posted by kingkman
IKC, using your logic Vrook or the other jedi that try to strip zayne from the force in KOTOR2 would WTFpwn Vader.

Who the hell is Zayne?

And who's to say they wouldn't?

Vodo's knowledge of the technique is not the only reason he'll win.

Originally posted by IKC
Who the hell is Zayne?

And who's to say they wouldn't?

Vodo's knowledge of the technique is not the only reason he'll win.

Zayne is the main character from the KOTOR comics.

Originally posted by kingkman
IKC, using your logic Vrook or the other jedi that try to strip zayne from the force in KOTOR2 would WTFpwn Vader.

Oh I get it... your one of those people who think Zayne is the Exile.

Dude... Zayne is an upstart padawan who refused to join the wars... the Exile was a Jedi General. They are radically different.

Originally posted by IKC
It appears you've yet to approach anything remotely resembling a coherent thought. As that is the case, my points stand, and I'll simply amuse myself in pointing out your logical fallacies.



Disputing the authority (the narrator being the final authority).



Disputing the authority.



Incoherency (irrelevant misdirection, really), logical fallacy. What the hell does this even mean? Even if I change "ever" to "never" it still doesn't make any sense in the context of this argument and its unsupported by the material itself.



Begging the question, logical fallacy. Did you perhaps consider that Kun was stronger than the ancient Sith Odan used it on or perhaps he discovered a method to block the attack?



I'm very much tempted to call this begging the question, given that I've only seen her taught by Arca, Thon, and briefly by Vodo other than in the scene I've posted numerous times.



Begging the question, disputing the authority, logical fallacies. Odan's use of it pushed Kun back, QED.



Appeal to ridicule, logical fallacy. Begging the question, logical fallacy. Red herring, logical fallacy.



Burden of proof, logical fallacy. Red herring, logical fallacy.

It's already been proven that the technique can be used by only one practitioner. Whether or not Vodo can do it against Qel-Droma is irrelevant, Vader is not Qel-Droma.



Begging the question, logical fallacy. Disputing the authority.

I see logical extrapolations are beyond you:

"Did you perhaps consider that Kun was stronger than the ancient Sith Odan used it on or perhaps he discovered a method to block the attack?"



False premise, the attack was shown to work almost instantly, with zero preparation time necessary when it was both attempted and used successfully.



Red herring, logical fallacy. I like how you assume it would have worked on Kun despite the fact that it failed when Odan tried it. Of course, you could pull your head out of your ass and reason that Vodo knew Kun to be too powerful/knowledgeable for the attack to work, but that'd be asking too much of you.

Still wandering around in vain search of a thought, Lightsnake. Rather sad, actually.

Great, where does the narrarator ever say 'this is the blocking technique he taught Nomi Sunrider?' Until you prove that...was that the only thing he taught her when the effect is totally different?

Kun stronger than the ancient Sith? These are the guys worth 'billions' of Vong now? Though, I change some of the argument a bit: It's possible Sadow's amulet was the counter if that was indeed the blocking Odan used.

And what the hell, 'instantly? We see Odan prepare it, Nomi as well...in no instance of the permanent blocking is it instant.

And perhaps it could have worked on Kun as
A. Vodo had no clue Odan had tried it on Kun
B. Vodo is with...three other Jedi and considering they joined their powers with him before to temporary imprison Ulic..
C. Vodo was also 'too knowledgable' to share the knowledge Exar Kun was responsible for what'd happened-and he knew, thus saving countless lives? That he said 'I must do this alone', without a way to defeat Exar minus possibly cripple him in a major longshot when there are...three other Jedi around, one skilled in battle meditation? And Vodo's brilliant reasoning: "I must do it myself." This is the same guy who just let the dark hearted Exar run off, did as bad a job as Arca in curbing his curiosity and gave the worst attempt to turn someone to the light Star Wars has ever seen, I'd call Vodo's intelligence into question

And 'almost' instantly? The time it takes for Vodo to lower his staff is the time Vader veheads him. We've seen Vader take on...how many masters at once in Purge? We've seen him toy with the top royal guard candidate as if he were a child? We've seen him fighting Maul in unfamiliar ground, we've seen him defeat the Dark Woman, who wasn't a slouch in speed

The fight between him and Maul, and him an the Dark Women are both non-canon...

And in Purge? He hardly pwns them. He kills most of them because he has a cortosis blade, in fact, he walks out of there almost dead!

You forget this is Lightsnake... anything EU is C-canon to him, therefore, he can use anything to his bias' advantage.

Hey the Dark Woman was cool... she's my favorite female Jedi.

Didn't realize she was not canon though.

I saw a render of her. I thought she was pretty cool.

Yea when Vader killer her she pulled an "Obi" on him and just vanished. It must have been infinites.

In any case, unless people think OT Vader > ROTS Yoda or Mace or Sidious, there's no argument here.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
In any case, unless people think OT Vader > ROTS Yoda or Mace or Sidious, there's no argument here.

I bet you somewhere in the world there are people who think Vader could take Ra, Odin and Zeus at once...

Yeah here. Last year at this time. We had every Anakin and Sidious fanboy and his mother here going "zomg tehy pwn teh othru jedi!!!" in eveery thread.

Originally posted by Traya
The fight between him and Maul, and him an the Dark Women are both non-canon...

And in Purge? He hardly pwns them. He kills most of them because he has a cortosis blade, in fact, he walks out of there almost dead!

He would've been killed if the 501st hadn't made a timely arrival.

Disputing the authority.



Disputing the source material. Begging the question.



Disputing the source material. It takes all of one panel for Odan to launch the attack. That's as close to instant as can be conveyed. It can and will be used in this fight.



Appeal to ridicule, red herring, begging the question.

I'd call what you laughingly call "debate" into question.



Begging the question, faulty use of authority (non-canon stories), flat-out bias.

Come back when you have a thought. My points stand. Vader is certainly not at ROTS Yoda's level. We've established that Vodo defeats ROTS Yoda here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t392447.html

Vader cannot and will not beat Vodo. He'll be blocked from the Force and destroyed.

Speak English you ******. Anyway vader was very impressive with the force. He is the only person in the movies who ever used telekenesis in an offensive form without the need of his hands to guide him.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Hey the Dark Woman was cool... she's my favorite female Jedi.

Didn't realize she was not canon though.

I think she is canon. I remember reading about her in one of the Essential Guides. No info on her though, they just mentioned her name in passing.

Please don't bash people kingkman.

Mech.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I think she is canon. I remember reading about her in one of the Essential Guides. No info on her though, they just mentioned her name in passing.

Yeah, she is mentioned as being the mentor of a few jedi, like Ki-Adi-Mundi if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I think she is canon. I remember reading about her in one of the Essential Guides. No info on her though, they just mentioned her name in passing.

She appears in the "Republic" Comics namely the collections "Vow of Justice" (Republic comics 4-6), "Outlander" (Republic comics 7-12), "Emissaries to Malastare" (Republic comics 13-18) and "The Hunt for Aurra Sing" (Republic comics 28-31) as well as in "Jedi: Aayla Secura" and the "Jedi Starfighter" game. So I'd say she is (C)-canon.

And by the way: Despite the fact that her duel happened in the Star Wars Tales #2 which is considered to be an Infinity - it doesn't contradict any other source (normally infinities tell alternate stories of canon sources like the films). So it is possible that she was killed by Vader in the way it is shown in "Extinction". Those stories are just labelled Infinities because their isn't reference in source of higher level of canon (such as books / normal comics / movies) or they are contradicting ideas behind the films partially (like Vaders duel agains Maul). This isn't the case for "Extinction".

Not that it matters - Vodo tools Vader.

Ok, IKC, for the last time: Prove that
A. Odan was using the same technique. Shut up about fallacies and find me something.
B. PRove to me 'reaching into the light' means 'blocking technique'
C. Prove to me Vader would give Vodo a chance to stop fighting when we've seen how Vodo uses that blocking technique in mano a mano fights.

And for the record: The Dark Woman story is canonical. It was confirmed in the Character guide. As for the Ressurection story, it's been alluded to in places and it's not completely non-canon. It was mentioned Vader faced prophets of the darkside on said world in the Dark Forces saga, and it was also mentioned in Insider.

Do you realise that him pointing out fallacies in your posts is a valid thing? Arguments are based upon the proper application of logic, and anything which is logically fallacious is usually just moronic...

Originally posted by Traya
Do you realise that him pointing out fallacies in your posts is a valid thing? Arguments are based upon the proper application of logic, and anything which is logically fallacious is usually just moronic...

Indeed, logical fallacy is the way of the fanboy, applying one-sided logic and ridiculous conclusions to false premises. If you went into a moderated debate and you used logical fallacies, it's over. Done. Period. Stick a fork in it.

I fail to see why anyone will want to even bother explaining it to you if the laws of logic and reasoning don't apply for you.

I remember my moderated debates in high school. My teacher had this evil voice when he's say "tu quoque", which frankly, happened a lot.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I remember my moderated debates in high school. My teacher had this evil voice when he's say "tu quoque", which frankly, happened a lot.

You had debates in High School?

HA!

If that were to happen in my school everyone would die in shock.

I had some horrid ones. One time, I had to roleplay as Harry Truman defending the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was class versus class, only my class didn't do any research. I basically had to defend myself for a day long mock trial.

...

Did I mention I hadn't studied either?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I had some horrid ones. One time, I had to roleplay as Harry Truman defending the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was class versus class, only my class didn't do any research. I basically had to defend myself for a day long mock trial.

...

Did I mention I hadn't studied either?

Lol...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I had some horrid ones. One time, I had to roleplay as Harry Truman defending the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was class versus class, only my class didn't do any research. I basically had to defend myself for a day long mock trial.

...

Did I mention I hadn't studied either?

Thats funny. I debated the exact same thing in my high school history class 3 months ago.

If you had Mr. Forslorn, that would explain it.

What's irritating me is his continuous sayings of 'logical fallacy' in place of proof when I ask him to prove his claims beyond 'as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider'. It's equally annoying when you ask someone to prove the reverse...I can easily prove Vader didn't beat Obi-wan in ROTS, or Vodo Siosk-Baas didn't stop Exar Kun.

And Janus, I know frightening...I've seen people role playing as DBZ characters debating about World War 2

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What's irritating me is his continuous sayings of 'logical fallacy' in place of proof when I ask him to prove his claims beyond 'as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider'. It's equally annoying when you ask someone to prove the reverse...I can easily prove Vader didn't beat Obi-wan in ROTS, or Vodo Siosk-Baas didn't stop Exar Kun.

Well, to his credit, a lot of his points have been established and you simply saying otherwise is a demonstration of fallacy, based on the evidence provided. I don't want to get into specifics (Mainly because I don't want to page back to find info) but he's already set up his argument.



Those people should be stoned to death and left in the fields for birds.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What's irritating me is his continuous sayings of 'logical fallacy' in place of proof when I ask him to prove his claims beyond 'as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider'. It's equally annoying when you ask someone to prove the reverse...I can easily prove Vader didn't beat Obi-wan in ROTS, or Vodo Siosk-Baas didn't stop Exar Kun.

And Janus, I know frightening...I've seen people role playing as DBZ characters debating about World War 2

Really Lightsnake. IKC did post the pictures so often that meanwhile you should have casually seen them and noticed what is depicted, even when trying to ignore them completely...

Nai, I asked him time and time again to prove Odan was attempting to block Exar from the force. When he'd been teaching her about the light side for who knows how long, 'reaches into the light' does not mean 'tries to block Exar Kun from the force'

I saw Kun thrown back after being attacked, which is noticeably different to what occurs both times any blocking is used

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nai, I asked him time and time again to prove Odan was attempting to block Exar from the force. When he'd been teaching her about the light side for who knows how long, 'reaches into the light' does not mean 'tries to block Exar Kun from the force'

I saw Kun thrown back after being attacked, which is noticeably different to what occurs both times any blocking is used

...

You know, I only saw that scan yesterday and based on what was said in the narration, I saw how it was the same attack. For all we know, he used the block attack on Kun and then used a force push to send him flying. But either way, it seems pretty evident that he used or attempted the same attack.

Why would a Jedi master toss back a guy who he believes he just blinded from the force and why would Kun just let that happen? Once again: What Odan did as we see: He moves his hand forward and Kun is tossed back. When Vodo and Nomi use it, the effects are very different. And once again, Odan had been training Nomi for a bit and he'd only just told her about that technique

Originally posted by IKC
Well, it appears you haven't found a thought yet.

I suppose I'll just recap everything so even vacant skulls can see it:

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg
http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

As we see in the previous three scans from narration and dialogue, Odan-Urr is teaching Nomi Sunrider how to block people from the Force - a technique she'll eventually use on Ulic Qel-Droma in permanent form.

We also see that such an attack, even though it apparently was effective against the Ancient Sith, did precisely zilch to Kun other than push him back, to which Kun responds by killing Odan.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9528/vodoblock0jf.th.jpg

As we see in this scan, Vodo knows the very technique in question.

Because correlation is not causation

and

because Nomi could perform it by herself

and

Odan could perform it by himself

and

Vodo is stated by the omniscient narrator to know how to use said technique,

then

Vodo can use said technique by himself.

Your subjective observations as to the appearance and apparent effects of said attacks are irrelevant and do not override this narrative evidence.

Your objections that Vodo happened to perform the technique on Ulic with the help of other Jedi are based on a logical fallacy because you can only show correlation and not causation.

Your assertion that Vodo cannot perform the technique by himself is unfounded: Nomi, a subordinate of his in rank and power, was able to do so just fine.

Conclusion: Vodo can and will use this technique to strip the Force from Darth Vader and will win this fight.

QED.

I think he covered it here.

So, because Odan knows it and was teaching it to someone means he was using it there as a first resort when he'd just rambled on at length about how terrible it was to block someone from the force?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why would a Jedi master toss back a guy who he believes he just blinded from the force and why would Kun just let that happen? Once again: What Odan did as we see: He moves his hand forward and Kun is tossed back. When Vodo and Nomi use it, the effects are very different. And once again, Odan had been training Nomi for a bit and he'd only just told her about that technique

You have to consider that Kun resisted the attack and probably he was thrown back instead off suffering from getting seperated from the force. I don't see Odan force pushing Exar around when Exar apparently has the greater force TK abilities (which he shows by force choking Odan to death just seconds later).

And Odan is using the same thing that he tried to teach Nomi a few panels before which is the ability to cut people's force connection off.

I don't even see this ability matter in this fight. Vodo - at the very least - is on Yoda's skill level and judging from that alone he would destroy Vader - no matter if he can cut Vader's force connection or not.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You have to consider that Kun resisted the attack and probably he was thrown back instead off suffering from getting seperated from the force. I don't see Odan force pushing Exar around when Exar apparently has the greater force TK abilities (which he shows by force choking Odan to death just seconds later).

And Odan is using the same thing that he tried to teach Nomi a few panels before which is the ability to cut people's force connection off.

I don't even see this ability matter in this fight. Vodo - at the very least - is on Yoda's skill level and judging from that alone he would destroy Vader - no matter if he can cut Vader's force connection or not.

We saw Raynar Thul force push Luke once...Luke is undeniably the greater Force user.
Once more: Odan had just told her about the technique moments ago and was teaching her before that. 'Reaching into the light' does not mean 'blocks from the force'....especially when Odan had just told Nomi about how terrible this was to even a dark jedi, he'd really use this as a first resort? And the attacks has never shown any impact. We saw Ulic frozen in place with the temporary one and turn around screaming in shock as he was blocked...and ODan is yelling 'away' at Exar when he's tossed across the room, that seems a bit more appropriate with a force push rather than blocking.

PRoblem with Vodo's skill level: He has practically no way to damage Vader.

Lightsnake, just look at the narrative text at the top:

http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=byeodan9zm.jpg

"He reaches deep into the light drawing on the bright power - as he tried to teach Nomi Sunrider."

Now, let's flip back two pages:

http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=odanteaching6ne.jpg

What's this? Is Odan teaching Nomi the blocking technique? Yes, he is.

Damn, double posted. Sorry.

Once again: He'd been teaching her before that. If you flip back a few pages it says Nomi is continuing her training with Odan

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Once again: He'd been teaching her before that. If you flip back a few pages it says Nomi is continuing her training with Odan

Right. Odan used battle meditation on Kun, because it says "In the vast Jedi Library on Ossus, Nomi Sunrider continues her training in Jedi battle meditation." Other than that, I don't see what else he tried to teach Nomi besides blocking someone off from the Force, and it certainly doesn't imply he was teaching her otherwise.

So, Lightsnake, why the hell would he use battle meditation on Kun? Answer: He wouldn't. Therefore, he was using the blocking technique.

lol

Hm, says in the chronology she was training the force period...that is something, though, Motoko

That's why a chronology isn't a better source than the source material.

Which announces the Sith Empire as one hundred thousand years old, has Nomi having been staying on Ossus for some time with Odan and the like...which also tries to present Satal Keto as a threat of any significance whatsoever.
And I meant the original chronology

What the **** is this? Darth Vader would get his ass kicked by just looking at Vodo.