Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Round 1) Force Battle

Round 2) Lightasber Duel

Round 3) Both

I say Desann in all, especialy the Force battle.

Desann regresses back into his kowakian monkey-lizard stage out of fear.

If people think that Malak could have done as well as Desann did against Luke at the time of JO then yes he probably wins, but if not.....

Luke wasn't yet a demi-god in JO. It still remains hard to compare video-game characters, as many of the gameplay experiences revolving around them rely on the individual user. They had to make Desann tough enough to fend off Luke, otherwise Luke would have just killed him even before he boarded the Doomgiver. It was just a matter of keeping the story alive. I also noticed Luke wasn't even phased after fighting Desann, he just jumped away and looked regretful that Desann got away, but otherwise, not damaged.

Malak still wins though.

Desann could win this, but unlikely...I doubt Luke gave his all against Desann anyways, at that time, he was way too soft when fighting ex-students

Originally posted by Tangible God
Luke wasn't yet a demi-god in JO. It still remains hard to compare video-game characters, as many of the gameplay experiences revolving around them rely on the individual user. They had to make Desann tough enough to fend off Luke, otherwise Luke would have just killed him even before he boarded the Doomgiver. It was just a matter of keeping the story alive. I also noticed Luke wasn't even phased after fighting Desann, he just jumped away and looked regretful that Desann got away, but otherwise, not damaged.

Malak still wins though.


Luke was still good enough to beat DE Sidious, and this is some years AFTER DE. Also, you can't blame the plotline. I could say as well that Dooku could have killed Yoda in AOTC if it wasn't for plot necessarity...

Luke was afraid to meet Desann, he confessed this himself. When he attacked him Luke didn't even sense him coming. If you are afraid of someone you are not very likley to go easy on them. Kyle even mentioned to Luke at the end of the game, "you should have known it required a failed jedi to take out another failed jedi". Luke had really no reason to go gently on him, especially not since he was damn near to destroy Luke's academy.... Besides, Luke wasn't doing so well in that fight either, falling most of the time (this does not oftenly if at all happen when gameplay characters are fighting in a sword battle). Desann also laughs at him and tosses his lightsaber to buery him. Even IF Luke would not go all out, he would indeed try to stop him, and he failed miserably. Luke by this time would pwn Malak.
Of course if this is normal Desann he does not win, but JO in the end(when he has visited the valley of the jedi) he probably takes it.

Luke had no reason to go easy on Brakiss and Kueller either, both of whom were remarkably similar to Desann....and Kueller was far stronger...I doubt Luke was afraid to meet Desann because he was scared to fight him, that's totally and completely OOC for Luke

OOC?

Originally posted by DE Luke
OOC? OOC is "Out of Character".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke had no reason to go easy on Brakiss and Kueller either, both of whom were remarkably similar to Desann....and Kueller was far stronger...I doubt Luke was afraid to meet Desann because he was scared to fight him, that's totally and completely OOC for Luke


He said it himself. No one knows better what Luke is afraid of than himself. Probably bad plot line for JO but it is still happened. Luke would probably been able to kill him in their duel (cause I think he was unprepared for the meeting), but I do belive that Malak would be an easier target than Desann.
Even before Desann went to the valley and gained hundres if not thousands (more or less than either) powers from different force users, he was able to fling his hand and a huge pillar collapsed. That was even more than Count Dooku showed in AOTC (not arguing that he is better force wise, but it was a more incredible feat he performed). So I think with the valley of the jedi Desann would prevail over Malak....

Was Luke afraid to face Desann for his power or because Desann was a great failure of his?

Power definently. His own comment, "If you run into Desann, don't try to take him on alone, now that he has been through the valley of the jedi he is more powerfull than ever". Then after Kyle sees Luke fighting Desann alone. "I thought you said we shouldn't go against him alone.....
I didn't have a choice, I didn't even sense him coming".

If Luke wanted him and Kyle to go together then it is pretty clear that Luke needed Kyle, not risking Kyle's life if he could easily take him alone.....

The warning wasn't for Kyle alone but also himself. Desann was a powerful Dark Jedi before gaining power at the Valley of the Jedi. I would have to say that Luke and Kyle in Jedi Outcast are about even or Kyle a bit better due to him taking power from the Valley.

Also there is no canon version on how Kyle killed Desann. It could have been a straight up saber fight or Kyle knocked a pillar down on him. We will never know.

Yeah I was about to say that. We never see Desann's full body when he is dead. There are multiple choices you can take during the fight. Either the beam that makes you invinsible for a short duration, or knocking down the giant pillars on him. If you watch closley when you can see a little of Desann's body, you can see that a pillar which was there before is crushed, and the machine that was used for that invinsibility is active. (Not beaming but turned up from the ground).

Definitely power? This IS Luke we're talking about. It's not inconcievable Luke'd fear to face Desann as his first major failure, considering he was the same in regards to Brakiss, and Luke's not a man afraid to face people when they might be stronger than him.

Luke's also been shown to hold back heavily against his students...Brakiss for example

Luke said himself he did not want to face him alone. Luke said the reason was that he was more powerful than ever. Luke never even tried to convert Desann, he didn't say a word to him.

I'm just saying it's odd and I'm putting Kueller as stronger than Desann and Luke was able to face him ...I really doubt Desann is so strong as to stand against Luke when he goes all out

I'm taking Luke's word on this. He didn't want to face Desann and he didn't try to convert him.

Would Luke hold back if it meant the lives of his friends, family, students - or even for the sake of the entire galaxy? Of course not! Desann HAD to be stopped no matter what. When Vader just MENTIONED tuning Leia to the Dark Side, Luke went all-out on his own father. Desann threatened billions even Trillions of lives - including Leia, Han, Kyp, Mara, Kyle, and himself. Holding back would be dooming the galaxy.

Kueller and Brakiss were threats to the entire Academy, Kueller was a threat to Leia as well...he held back on both counts

Yes, but not on such a scale as Desann, who threatened the galaxy.

Personally? I think Desann's overrated. He got beat by Katarn, who didn't have that much training at this point. He held off Luke, sure, but can you really say Luke was going all out? Luke, a year before, dueled faster than the eye can see, became an "embodiment" of the Light side and beat the Reborn Emperor in a saber match.

Do you honestly think Desann could best one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever (DE Sidious)?

Malak, on the other hand, is regarded as near Dooku's and Mace's level on this forum...

Originally posted by kamikz
Luke was still good enough to beat DE Sidious, and this is some years AFTER DE. Also, you can't blame the plotline. I could say as well that Dooku could have killed Yoda in AOTC if it wasn't for plot necessarity...

Luke was afraid to meet Desann, he confessed this himself. When he attacked him Luke didn't even sense him coming. If you are afraid of someone you are not very likley to go easy on them. Kyle even mentioned to Luke at the end of the game, "you should have known it required a failed jedi to take out another failed jedi". Luke had really no reason to go gently on him, especially not since he was damn near to destroy Luke's academy.... Besides, Luke wasn't doing so well in that fight either, falling most of the time (this does not oftenly if at all happen when gameplay characters are fighting in a sword battle). Desann also laughs at him and tosses his lightsaber to buery him. Even IF Luke would not go all out, he would indeed try to stop him, and he failed miserably. Luke by this time would pwn Malak.
Of course if this is normal Desann he does not win, but JO in the end(when he has visited the valley of the jedi) he probably takes it. As I said, this battle is between video-game characters, so it's difficult to judge. And never make the mistake of basing facts on feats. Saying so, your opinion that Dooku could have taken Yoda doesn't count for much, but that's irrelevant. And if I've read correctly, DE Palpatine scared the bajeezus out of Luke, who succumbed to the Dark. Palpatine also defeated Luke one on one. He only beat him thanks to timely intervention of his sister. And the DE timeline is set about a 3 to 4 years before JO, so don't hype Luke up too much yet.

Luke wasn't afraid to meet Desann. He's not proud to deny it either, and if he needed Kyle's help, they would have traversed the Lenico Base together. But he didn't require it. As for Kyle's quote, he wasn't being serious, he was purposely undermining himself, which Luke corrected: "Kyle, you were never a failure." As for Luke falling "all the time" in the game, he falls only once in my version, I've even rigged their fighting area with Reborn and mines before, hence the falibilty of the game. The actions aren't set in stone like the movies are. Desann tossed his saber to trap Luke under 10 tons of rubble, which Luke escapes from miraculously. And the events surrounding the fight between Kyle and Desann aren't perfectly canon either, due to the difficulty setting on the game, I beat Desann in a saber duel and didn't have to rely on cheats, the immortality beam, or the pillars. None of it is definte, same goes for the ending fight with Malak, though there aren't as many obstacles in that room in which canonity is a problem.

And Lightsnake's right, Luke has been shown many times to walk purposely into situations that he know's he's outmatched, e.g. ROTJ. Facing Desann would hardly be such an overwhelming prospect as to render Luke petrified. He didn't want to face him because he was his first true failure, and because he knew Kyle had his own score to settle with him.

And Malak has been proven to be quite the expert dueler, and yes, ranked up there with Mace and Dooku. Force-wise he's not THAT special, but again, neither is Desann. I'd take the 7 foot Dark Lord as a back-up over the failed Jedi with not even a decade of training, any day.

Hmm...on the first round i think desann would take it easily, because malak isn't very strong in the force considering he had to use the star forges power to defeat revan.

I believe Malak would take the second round though, since desann's lightsaber combat is very agressive and would be easy for malak's makashi-like style to fend off his attacks and follow up with powerful counter-attacks.

The third round is tough but since i feel that in a battle knowledge of the force is more important than lightsaber ability i'll go with desann.

Desann=2
Malak=1

Desann>malak

Originally posted by Darth Solus
Hmm...on the first round i think desann would take it easily, because malak isn't very strong in the force considering he had to use the star forges power to defeat revan.

I believe Malak would take the second round though, since desann's lightsaber combat is very agressive and would be easy for malak's makashi-like style to fend off his attacks and follow up with powerful counter-attacks.

The third round is tough but since i feel that in a battle knowledge of the force is more important than lightsaber ability i'll go with desann.

Desann=2
Malak=1

Desann>malak And you... do realize that Revan would take Desann to school in every way possible. For Malak to hold him off for that long is something.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Personally? I think Desann's overrated. He got beat by Katarn, who didn't have that much training at this point. He held off Luke, sure, but can you really say Luke was going all out? Luke, a year before, dueled faster than the eye can see, became an "embodiment" of the Light side and beat the Reborn Emperor in a saber match.

Do you honestly think Desann could best one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever (DE Sidious)?

Malak, on the other hand, is regarded as near Dooku's and Mace's level on this forum...

Kyle had his power increased at the Valley of the Jedi. Luke knew that right off the bat when he was able to use the Force so well. Kyle Katarn in Jedi Outcast could take down Count Dooku and it was said that Desann was Kyle's equal or better then.

Malak seems to be weaker then everyone thought. He needed the use the Star Forge to even fight Revan and he still got beat.

Jerec was said to be on Darth Vader's level and Desann could easily take down Jerec.

Originally posted by Tangible God
As I said, this battle is between video-game characters, so it's difficult to judge. And never make the mistake of basing facts on feats. Saying so, your opinion that Dooku could have taken Yoda doesn't count for much, but that's irrelevant. And if I've read correctly, DE Palpatine scared the bajeezus out of Luke, who succumbed to the Dark. Palpatine also defeated Luke one on one. He only beat him thanks to timely intervention of his sister. And the DE timeline is set about a 3 to 4 years before JO, so don't hype Luke up too much yet.

Luke wasn't afraid to meet Desann. He's not proud to deny it either, and if he needed Kyle's help, they would have traversed the Lenico Base together. But he didn't require it. As for Kyle's quote, he wasn't being serious, he was purposely undermining himself, which Luke corrected: "Kyle, you were never a failure." As for Luke falling "all the time" in the game, he falls only once in my version, I've even rigged their fighting area with Reborn and mines before, hence the falibilty of the game. The actions aren't set in stone like the movies are. Desann tossed his saber to trap Luke under 10 tons of rubble, which Luke escapes from miraculously. And the events surrounding the fight between Kyle and Desann aren't perfectly canon either, due to the difficulty setting on the game, I beat Desann in a saber duel and didn't have to rely on cheats, the immortality beam, or the pillars. None of it is definte, same goes for the ending fight with Malak, though there aren't as many obstacles in that room in which canonity is a problem.

And Lightsnake's right, Luke has been shown many times to walk purposely into situations that he know's he's outmatched, e.g. ROTJ. Facing Desann would hardly be such an overwhelming prospect as to render Luke petrified. He didn't want to face him because he was his first true failure, and because he knew Kyle had his own score to settle with him.

And Malak has been proven to be quite the expert dueler, and yes, ranked up there with Mace and Dooku. Force-wise he's not THAT special, but again, neither is Desann. I'd take the 7 foot Dark Lord as a back-up over the failed Jedi with not even a decade of training, any day.


You said that Desann only survived because Kyle would face him cause he is the main character. Thing is that that is what happened, like it or not, so it doesn't matter....


Ok so you don't think Luke is such big deal yet, then why is it impossible for him to loose against Desann all of the sudden? Luke only fought on such level because as you said, his sister came in....


Then why did he not want to face him alone? Kyle and Luke did not go together cause Luke were going out to find the source of their power and their source of cortosis, they went seperate ways because they had to.....


That's why I said it is impossible to know how he died. Yes YOU defeated him in saber combat, but that means nothing really. We don't know how he was killed so we can't go around and say, Luke > Kyle, Kyle> Desann, Luke>Desann.


Desann also pushes him far away with the force, then tosses his lightsaber. Then he went away to destroy the academy. Luke never went into the fight purpousley, he was attacked by Desann and he couldn't even sense him. It was not his choice as he explained to Kyle, he was forced to. When they were fighting Luke wasn't even trying to talk to him, they were just fighting and Desann was laughing in the meantime.



Where has Malak been said to be such a great duelist? Give me the facts instead just saying it.....
Desann bad with the force? By only flapping his hand he collapses the top of a pillar with ease, and this is before his power is combined by maybe HUNDREDS of other force users at the valley of the jedi. And since when did less traning mean they are much worse? Luke had trained for 8 months in the OT and still kicked Vader's ass.....

The heck?

That's quite impossible. If Jerec were near Vader's level, he'd have become a Sith Lord.

Now, the one thing Jerec really has over Vader is potential. If Jerec were his equal in power as well, Palpatine would have no doubt replaced the mech.

But he didn't. Vader was far more powerful than his Dark Jedi lackey.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
The heck?

That's quite impossible. If Jerec were near Vader's level, he'd have become a Sith Lord.

Now, the one thing Jerec really has over Vader is potential. If Jerec were his equal in power as well, Palpatine would have no doubt replaced the mech.

But he didn't. Vader was far more powerful than his Dark Jedi lackey.

Being a Dark Jedi doesn't make you lesser then a Sith. Jerec was a Jedi Master before the Clone Wars and went into exile after that. During which he went to the Emperor and begun to train. If Vader was to be killed and Luke wasn't turned Jerec would become the Emperor's new padawan.

Jerec is on par with Darth Vader and he already reached his potential.

Based on what? All we know is:

- He was a dark jedi who was lower than Vader in rank
- He was an old republic Jedi before that
- He got owned by dude who found his saber in his garage

I think there was a quote in the game actually that said it. Thing is that I've heard it before, but I haven't played the game in a long time so I cannot back up what ESB said....

Jerec was Dark Lord of the Sith in all but name when Palpatine was gone. He was a powerful master by PT times and one of the top Inquisitors...Palpatine trusted him extremely little though.

Well Jerec is blind and yet he can see better then many people due to the force. The Emperor trusted him with many dark secrets and he even had Sith Holocrons to train by.

Based on what? All we know is:

- He was a dark jedi who was lower than Vader in rank
- He was an old republic Jedi before that
- He got owned by dude who found his saber in his garage

Under minding Kyle I see. Kyle is one of the greatest Jedi for the New Jedi Order. And again there is no canon version on how Kyle defeated Jerec. All we know is that Kyle did defeat Jerec. And there is a quote in the game that says he was as strong as Vader. I don't remember it because I haven't played the game in a few years.

Yes well Jerec did show alot more power than Vader. Simply by raising his hand he could completly immobilize a jedi from even moving and blow up a whole ship/runway....

True. If anything Jerec was about as strong as Desann was before his power increase at the Valley of the Jedi.

Vader was easily the Emperor's mightiest servant though...it's why he was the Sith Apprentice

Maybe overall, but he never showed one such devestating power as Jerec.

He's crushed an entire room with the force and flon ships with just the force...In a straight fight, Jerec would be crushed. There's a reason he never moved against Vader and he BADLY wanted to be Sith

You have to read into specific things. Characters that originate from comic books or video games have a single universal trait in common - whether it be Star Wars or Superman. They are overpowered.

For example, if you take this at face value - that Desann defeated Luke in combat without any inhibitions on Luke's part - then that makes Desann on par with Emperor Palpatine (as of Dark Empire), Exar Kun - and superior to the likes of Yoda, Mace, Dooku, and so forth.

Does that really make sense?

Describtion of the valley of the jedi's power when stored into someone. (Just replacing Jerec with someone in this case).

If someone gets this power he will become more powerful than anyone the galaxy has witnessed, a floating super nova, a star systems erradication in a whisper, within his power. That's pretty damn powerful. Sure he did not get that powerful, but Desann was indeed strong before that and his power was boosted with maybe hundres or thousands of previous force users. Why is everyone downgrading Desann all of a sudden? What proof do we have that makes him less good than someone else? And I say he could stand up to Luke, he is not ensured victory. (He probably will loose, but not easily) And Luke got his ass handed to him by DE Sidious at first, before Leia came....


So being in a game automatically places him in a lower grade than anyone else that has shown power? Desann only exist in a game, we only know him by this, so what's the point?

I am not downplaying Desann. My point is that you have to read into these things - much like you just did.

Because I find it hard to believe that Desann, despite being a highly skilled Dark Jedi, would be anywhere on the same level as Kun, Palpatine, and Luke.

No, I actually don't think he can beat Luke when I think about it. But the thing is that he was powerful enough to be treated as a threat and even scared Luke, and he was even powerful enough to get out of a fight with Luke alive. These two things I doubt Malak would get near doing....

I really don't know anything about Desann but quite a few people thought Maul would beat him in the Maul vs. Desann thread and if Maul can beat him or even put up a fight against him then I'm sure Malak could beat him.

Desann is both stronger and smarter than Malak. he wins. in a KOTOR caption during a loading screen, it states he is no where near as good as Revan was. Malak got beat by Revan while he was at a weaker point in his life, and then even with the star forge backing him up. Desann threatened the galaxy to the extent that luke tells Kyle that it if he susceeds, it wouyld be worse than the first Galactic Empire. - Carin Bay(check if you don't believe me). Desann literally created Dark Jedi, the only problem is that they lacked dicpline. He had demonstrated a powerful command of the Force BEFORE his visit to the valley. After, he was able to temperairly disable Luke. (BTW, many say an untrained Kyle beat him. Kyle had mastered over 15 force powers, as well as teaching himself three different fighting styles, with their own pros and cons. He finished his training.)

Must be noted, Desann had tapped into the Valley at the point in time that he had fought Luke.

However, I still think Desann would lose to Malak. Desann was a skilled swordsman and powerful Force-user, but...Malak was a poweful Sith Lord.

I'm not really sure.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Must be noted, Desann had tapped into the Valley at the point in time that he had fought Luke.

However, I still think Desann would lose to Malak. Desann was a skilled swordsman and powerful Force-user, but...Malak was a poweful Sith Lord.

I'm not really sure.

Thanks for the clarification, Captain. I forgot about the Valley.

Malak tapped into the Star Forge when he was defeated by the hands of Revan.

Before the Valley he flicked his wrist and down came a corridor. He managed to disable Luke but that was after the Valley's power increase.

Where in the game did he bring down a corridor? I just played through the Cairne Dock level to see how he beat Luke (The fight was all gameplay, btw, canonically Luke could have been very well kicking his ass).

He drops a big load on Luke, but this is after tapping into the power of the Jedi.

The level Artus Topside when you first confront Desann before Kyle goes to the Valley of the Jedi.

He does that before Kyle goes to the valley (thus Desann follows him and finds it). If this is Desann before the valley then I think that Malak will win, probably. But if this is Desann in the end of JO then he wins...

This is after Desann's been to the Valley.(Thought everyone knew...oh well)

Actually, Generic Hero, while it is done in gameplay graphics, it's not actually part of gameplay. It's the same events every time you watch, you cannot change it, etc. *shrug*

It isn't. I have a savegame right before and I watched the scene thrice.

The first time, Luke got stomped. Desann was kicking him around like a toy.
The second time, Luke jumped on the rail and they barely met blades.
The third time was a good fight; both sides kept going at it.

The only thing scripted is their jump down to floor level and beyond...

In my game he always falls at least once. It is scripted that Desann is laughing through the duel though....

Come on, GH. Who do you think your're fooling? You know nothing changed, because it was already done. They don't keep randomly simulate the fight. If your're going to lie, at least make it convincing. I admit I haven't played the level as much, because I don't like using stealth, sneaking around isn't really my calling card. But I played it every time I do storymode(every once in a while). When kyle gets chocked by Desann in the games' beginning, it dosen't change. When Kyle revisits the Valley of the Jedi, it dosen't change. When Kyle talks to the chiss on Nar Shadda, it dosen't change. Nothing changes because it was already programmed, as in, the scenes are hardwired into every game. Yours is no different.

BTW, "Thrice" isn't a word.(Go back to school)

Thrice is a word... Go back to school.

WTF? Go watch the scene. The fight is done with gameplay BOTS. It's NOT going to be the same each and every time. The only thing is Desann is programmed to be a stronger bot than Luke. And remember, gameplay mechanics are not canon.

And you admit to not played it much. Here's a suggestion: Go back and play it, then comment. Leave a savegame before there and do it again.

And please, take your own advice. "Thrice" is a word. Today's youth...

Then I wonder why Desann was made as a stronger bot than Luke? Maybe because it was for Desann to look superior in that fight....

Well, we fight alongside Luke earlier in the game and the moment would be spoiled if Luke killed all of the Dark Jedi in 2.1 seconds. Plus, Desann had to be a tough final boss

Desann couldn't kill the dark jedi in 2.1 seconds either. It takes time to kill a jedi, even for Desann in JO. They could just have made it 6 jedi coming if they wanted to. And Desann still laughed during their saber fight....

Originally posted by Generic Hero
And please, take your own advice. "Thrice" is a word. Today's youth...

OUCH! my bad. guess I do need to go back to school

sry...

Originally posted by kamikz
Desann couldn't kill the dark jedi in 2.1 seconds either. It takes time to kill a jedi, even for Desann in JO. They could just have made it 6 jedi coming if they wanted to. And Desann still laughed during their saber fight.... The laughing means he's overconfident, it doesn't mean God deemed him uber.

I just played that level again, and the fight does change. I saved it right before I enter the ship's door and watched that fight like 5 times. First time, Luke falls once and Desann's saber passes straight through Luke and out the other side, then proceeds to travel back through Luke and into Desann's waiting hand. Smoke and sparks everwhere. And Luke is undamaged as we later see him performing a very large jump and standing with his shoulders squared and looking quite unphased by the whole event. By the rationale of a few people, that means Desann felt Luke was an honourable enough fighter to use his wtfpwning powers of immortality he gained from the Valley on Luke in hopes he'd be able to fight him in more elaborate circumstances.

The game mechanics in the cutscenes can be changed, even without the user's consent. I've played that game enough to see it happen, and no, not on the same computer. Desann chokes Kyle canonically, though in mine, Kyle once remained on the ground, almost out of sight. The game is fallible, and Luke and Desann's duel does not have a set canonical procedure like the falling pillar or the choke are. That fight means nothing, it was used as way to keep Luke from joining Kyle in the Doomgiver. It can be said as well that Desann knew Luke was too much for him, as he ran after bringing down the floor, which Luke easily dodged. Luke was fine after the fight, and Desann ran... who sounds more powerful know?

And just because Luke couldn't sense Desann coming, doesn't mean Desann's better than him. There have been quite a few people in SW that are immune to being sensed, or have used the Force to mask their presensce. Who's to say Desann can't do that, if he's as good as he's being made out to be?

Originally posted by Tangible God
The laughing means he's overconfident, it doesn't mean God deemed him uber.

I just played that level again, and the fight does change. I saved it right before I enter the ship's door and watched that fight like 5 times. First time, Luke falls once and Desann's saber passes straight through Luke and out the other side, then proceeds to travel back through Luke and into Desann's waiting hand. Smoke and sparks everwhere. And Luke is undamaged as we later see him performing a very large jump and standing with his shoulders squared and looking quite unphased by the whole event. By the rationale of a few people, that means Desann felt Luke was an honourable enough fighter to use his wtfpwning powers of immortality he gained from the Valley on Luke in hopes he'd be able to fight him in more elaborate circumstances.

The game mechanics in the cutscenes can be changed, even without the user's consent. I've played that game enough to see it happen, and no, not on the same computer. Desann chokes Kyle canonically, though in mine, Kyle once remained on the ground, almost out of sight. The game is fallible, and Luke and Desann's duel does not have a set canonical procedure like the falling pillar or the choke are. That fight means nothing, it was used as way to keep Luke from joining Kyle in the Doomgiver. It can be said as well that Desann knew Luke was too much for him, as he ran after bringing down the floor, which Luke easily dodged. Luke was fine after the fight, and Desann ran... who sounds more powerful know?

And just because Luke couldn't sense Desann coming, doesn't mean Desann's better than him. There have been quite a few people in SW that are immune to being sensed, or have used the Force to mask their presensce. Who's to say Desann can't do that, if he's as good as he's being made out to be?



You don't laugh during a saber fight if you are loosing it....


Ok so then why is Desann the greater bot? Why did Luke himself say he didn't want to fight him alone and commented his powers? Why did Luke explain to Kyle why he faced him alone if he was able to beat him?
And Luke shaking his head means as much as Desann laughing while the duel is over, it could simply have meant that Luke was sad because he failed to defeat Desann (this does not indicate that Luke would have done it, you can be sad because you loose even if someone is more powerful).

The fight does mean something, Desann stood up to Luke and made it out alive. He didn't flee from the fight, he pushed Luke away then he collapsed the roof on him, that was a smart move, there was nothing to even indicate that he was loosing. And Luke did not easily dodge it, he barley moved when it came down on him, it simply missed. Still, Desann did not see that Luke survived until after, actually, he never sees Luke coming back. Desann had to go into the off going ship, and he was laughing while he was running into it....


And WTF. I have never said that he couldn't feel him thus that makes him more powerful, I said that is the reason Luke fought him. It was not his own choice, he couldn't even sense him....


As I have said above I think Luke would take it in an "ultimate showdown". And to tell the truth I only belive this because of Luke's other accomplishments, there is really nothing to indicate that he is stronger than Desann, but it is a feeling I have that he would have taken it if the galaxy hung upon both of their shoulders....

Originally posted by kamikz
You don't laugh during a saber fight if you are loosing it....


Ok so then why is Desann the greater bot? Why did Luke himself say he didn't want to fight him alone and commented his powers? Why did Luke explain to Kyle why he faced him alone if he was able to beat him?
And Luke shaking his head means as much as Desann laughing while the duel is over, it could simply have meant that Luke was sad because he failed to defeat Desann (this does not indicate that Luke would have done it, you can be sad because you loose even if someone is more powerful).

The fight does mean something, Desann stood up to Luke and made it out alive. He didn't flee from the fight, he pushed Luke away then he collapsed the roof on him, that was a smart move, there was nothing to even indicate that he was loosing. And Luke did not easily dodge it, he barley moved when it came down on him, it simply missed. Still, Desann did not see that Luke survived until after, actually, he never sees Luke coming back. Desann had to go into the off going ship, and he was laughing while he was running into it....


And WTF. I have never said that he couldn't feel him thus that makes him more powerful, I said that is the reason Luke fought him. It was not his own choice, he couldn't even sense him....


As I have said above I think Luke would take it in an "ultimate showdown". And to tell the truth I only belive this because of Luke's other accomplishments, there is really nothing to indicate that he is stronger than Desann, but it is a feeling I have that he would have taken it if the galaxy hung upon both of their shoulders.... I just wanna point out that Desann laughs multiple times, before, during, and in one strange instance, after the fight. He even laughed WHILE I was putting the kill move on him. This is why I often turn the volume off. It's just something the creators put in. The laughing, grunting, gasping, it doesn't mean much. Laughing while he's running into the ship could imply numerous things

Honestly, do you really believe Luke is the type of man who would jeopordize the sake of the galaxy, simply because he's wary of his enemy. If Desann was too tough for Luke defeat, then Luke would've wanted Kyle and him to find the Doomgiver together. It's not in his character to take those kinds of gambles.

And do you really think that if Desann is as powerful as he is, that he wouldn't sense Luke still alive after bringing the floor down? He knew he was alive, he distracted him, and made his escape. The ship would not depart without the leader of the invasion force. In Grievous-esquese fashion, he may have knew he wouldn't win, and decided to book it outta there. Even if he didn't you've admitted yourself Luke is the more powerful. There's only hypothetical speculation for his running, and we can't assume either way.

Also, (and I'm no expert in comparing Luke to Kyle) Kyle defeating Desann at the end of the game would place Kyle, seemingly above Luke, that is if Luke wasn't as powerful as Desann. I believe I've heard over the year that this isn't so, but again, I'm no expert on that subject.

Finally, Luke's no fool. He knows that if Desann succeeds, he'll bring about a new Empire, which was Hethrir's plan. I think that's knowledge enough to kill Desann then and there, there's no need for an ultimate showdown.

Luke knew the same thing about Brakiss who was heading the Second Imperium...and Kueller, who was planning to take over the New Republic

What you gotta ask yourself is whats more powerful the Star Forge or the Valley of the Jedi? The Star Forge did devour an ENTIRE race of FORCE USERS, while the Valley has a few thousand Jedi.

Anyways,I say Malak.

Imagine a Valley enhanced Revan with the added powers of the Star Forge! YAY!

Originally posted by The Overmaster
What you gotta ask yourself is whats more powerful the Star Forge or the Valley of the Jedi? The Star Forge did devour an ENTIRE race of FORCE USERS, while the Valley has a few thousand Jedi.

Anyways,I say Malak.

Imagine a Valley enhanced Revan with the added powers of the Star Forge! YAY!

Does it say anywhere that the Star Forge amplified Malak's power? I'm not saying that it didn't . . . but I don't recall, specifically, where it said that.

I dont remember the exact line, all I remember was Malak telling Revan that if Revan had been the one to discovered the power of the Star Forge he couldve been truly invincible.

I remember him saying that because I always wondered if Revan truly didnt know about that power, considering he was smarter and wiser than Malak. I think Revan knew about, but didnt want to risk being consumed/destroyed by it or something to that effect.

Originally posted by The Overmaster
I dont remember the exact line, all I remember was Malak telling Revan that if Revan had been the one to discovered the power of the Star Forge he couldve been truly invincible.

I remember him saying that because I always wondered if Revan truly didnt know about that power, considering he was smarter and wiser than Malak. I think Revan knew about, but didnt want to risk being consumed/destroyed by it or something to that effect.

Aah . . . perhaps it wasn't referring to Force power. In A New Hope, the Imperial Governors share a similar theory regarding the Death Star. That, whomever controlled the station would be "the ultimate power in the universe!"

In both cases, the claims were false.

And, as I recall, Malak was forced to rely on the people in the "pods" that he used to drain their health. One would think that, if the Star Forge augmented his Force powers, he wouldn't need it.

Thus, I submit to you, that he was not "augmented" by the Star Forge.

Remember when you fight DS Bastila aboard the Star Forge? She kept on getting power boost from the Star Forge. Even Malak said it himself, something like this, "I sense your fear Bastila (or my apprentice, not sure), but it is unfounded. With the power of the Star Forge you will defeat my old master (or something like that)."

Its kinda sad, but Malak didnt really believe Bastila could beat Revan.

Anyways, you actually see some red lighting thing hit Bastila bringing her back to full health, and making her a little more resistant to your force powers (at least it seemed like to me that she became more resistant) and possibly making her force powers harder to save against. So, naturally, I assumed the same thing was fueling Malak, but they didnt show the 'red lightning'. But the proof that it had enhancing effects was there, when you fight Bassy.

I suppose Malak was subtling being fueled by the Star Forge than Ms. Lightshow overthere.

I think it was the power of the Star Forge itself that allowed Malak to place those Jedi in suspended animation. So technically, the SF DID regenerate him.

It didn't make him more powerful though.

Maybe, but then again he WAS facing REVAN, so if it DID make Malak more powerful, Revan didnt notice.

Ooo, maybe.

I think the SF was powering Malak like it was Bassy, but i'm not sure. Anyhoo, exactly what is meant by the "Power of the Star Forge!" is anyone's guess.

And those Jedi did serve another purpose, they were also enhancing Malak's powers.

Im not sure about the exact quote but i know it starts off like this, "See the bodies? You should recognize them from the academy. Theses were Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference. I have not let them become one with the force. (i dont know what is said after this, but i know how it ends) And when you are beaten I will do the same to you!"

Srry, i was trying to edit this into my last comment but ran outta time.

He says, "and once you are beaten, I will do the same to you. Your power feling me as I complete my conquest of the Core world!"

Something like that. If you interpret it from the right angle, then yes, it could be said that the SF allows these bodies to die, but the soul doesn't join the Force, instead, the powers of that sould feed and empower the master of the Star Forge, making them stronger.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I just wanna point out that Desann laughs multiple times, before, during, and in one strange instance, after the fight. He even laughed WHILE I was putting the kill move on him. This is why I often turn the volume off. It's just something the creators put in. The laughing, grunting, gasping, it doesn't mean much. Laughing while he's running into the ship could imply numerous things

Honestly, do you really believe Luke is the type of man who would jeopordize the sake of the galaxy, simply because he's wary of his enemy. If Desann was too tough for Luke defeat, then Luke would've wanted Kyle and him to find the Doomgiver together. It's not in his character to take those kinds of gambles.

And do you really think that if Desann is as powerful as he is, that he wouldn't sense Luke still alive after bringing the floor down? He knew he was alive, he distracted him, and made his escape. The ship would not depart without the leader of the invasion force. In Grievous-esquese fashion, he may have knew he wouldn't win, and decided to book it outta there. Even if he didn't you've admitted yourself Luke is the more powerful. There's only hypothetical speculation for his running, and we can't assume either way.

Also, (and I'm no expert in comparing Luke to Kyle) Kyle defeating Desann at the end of the game would place Kyle, seemingly above Luke, that is if Luke wasn't as powerful as Desann. I believe I've heard over the year that this isn't so, but again, I'm no expert on that subject.

Finally, Luke's no fool. He knows that if Desann succeeds, he'll bring about a new Empire, which was Hethrir's plan. I think that's knowledge enough to kill Desann then and there, there's no need for an ultimate showdown.


You always talk about what YOU do during the fight, but that doesn't mean anything. Once in Zelda I used a normal bottle to deflect Ganondorf's powerful blasts then defeated him with a hammer, when the master sword is the only weapon that actually can.....
Desann is set to talk and to laugh during the duel with Kyle, with Luke he ONLY laughs (never says his typicall taunts) and he does it always at the same places.....



They would have gone together, but there was to much for either of them to do and they didn't have time to go together. Besides, they didn't actually plan to find Desann personally here. It was not Luke's choice to fight Desann, so you can't say that he confronted him,, rather he was forced to as he said himself. And killing Desann was not the only way of stopping the future Empire. By destroying the Doomgiver Kyle pretty much stopped the invasion from succeeding...

There are alot of things that happened here. Sidious didn't feel that Vader would kill him when he was frying Luke, Maul didn't sense Obi's plan to jump on him, Anakin didn't sense Obi-Wan still being alive under that big balcony.....
And Desann was about to go down to destroy the jedi temple, he had a job to do. Either he thought that Luke was dead (hence the laughing) and he went into the ship. I mean, common, what would he have to do for us NOT to belive he escaped? Stand there and just look silly?
And fleeing doesn't mean your loosing either, Dooku and Mace is an example. Dooku didn't want to take any risks with Mace thus he escaped. Besides, Desann pretty much had the better of Luke at that fight......



I know, but Luke wanted Kyle to go with him, I don't really think you can say that he was fully prepared for this kind of fight. I don't know how to describe it, but the only thing that keeps me from saying that Desann is better than Luke is Luke's earlier accomplishments and "the way of thinking so highly about Desann". I've always thought he was kind of bad (after listening to all the earlier KMC members), but now I'm actually realising he ain't that bad, not at all......



Well the fact that after 1 hour practising with the force (after not having it at all for 9 years) he is able to grip Desann's most powerful dark jedi student, defeat her in saber combat, and lots of other thugs, dark jedi, stormtroopers. He was able to bring down the inside members of the doomgiver by himself. His powers grew ridicilousley fast. I don't think he is above Luke, I think his duel with Desann was won with a thanks to his quick wits as we have witnessed earlier and in other games. (Kyle very possible used that beam or crushed a pillar on him, as I said before, a pillar that used to stand in the background is crushed during the ending scene). His powers only helped him against Desann's, and his saber skills could hold out against Desann's.....

Originally posted by kamikz
You always talk about what YOU do during the fight, but that doesn't mean anything. Once in Zelda I used a normal bottle to deflect Ganondorf's powerful blasts then defeated him with a hammer, when the master sword is the only weapon that actually can.....
Desann is set to talk and to laugh during the duel with Kyle, with Luke he ONLY laughs (never says his typicall taunts) and he does it always at the same places.....



They would have gone together, but there was to much for either of them to do and they didn't have time to go together. Besides, they didn't actually plan to find Desann personally here. It was not Luke's choice to fight Desann, so you can't say that he confronted him,, rather he was forced to as he said himself. And killing Desann was not the only way of stopping the future Empire. By destroying the Doomgiver Kyle pretty much stopped the invasion from succeeding...

There are alot of things that happened here. Sidious didn't feel that Vader would kill him when he was frying Luke, Maul didn't sense Obi's plan to jump on him, Anakin didn't sense Obi-Wan still being alive under that big balcony.....
And Desann was about to go down to destroy the jedi temple, he had a job to do. Either he thought that Luke was dead (hence the laughing) and he went into the ship. I mean, common, what would he have to do for us NOT to belive he escaped? Stand there and just look silly?
And fleeing doesn't mean your loosing either, Dooku and Mace is an example. Dooku didn't want to take any risks with Mace thus he escaped. Besides, Desann pretty much had the better of Luke at that fight......



I know, but Luke wanted Kyle to go with him, I don't really think you can say that he was fully prepared for this kind of fight. I don't know how to describe it, but the only thing that keeps me from saying that Desann is better than Luke is Luke's earlier accomplishments and "the way of thinking so highly about Desann". I've always thought he was kind of bad (after listening to all the earlier KMC members), but now I'm actually realising he ain't that bad, not at all......



Well the fact that after 1 hour practising with the force (after not having it at all for 9 years) he is able to grip Desann's most powerful dark jedi student, defeat her in saber combat, and lots of other thugs, dark jedi, stormtroopers. He was able to bring down the inside members of the doomgiver by himself. His powers grew ridicilousley fast. I don't think he is above Luke, I think his duel with Desann was won with a thanks to his quick wits as we have witnessed earlier and in other games. (Kyle very possible used that beam or crushed a pillar on him, as I said before, a pillar that used to stand in the background is crushed during the ending scene). His powers only helped him against Desann's, and his saber skills could hold out against Desann's..... I'm not saying my version is the be all end all. I'm explaining to you that the game is falible, and susceptible to unintentional alterations.

I may be mistaken, but what's the quote from the game that states Luke wanted Kyle to go with him?

As leader of the Reborn, and virtual second in command next to Hethrir, why would Luke put Desann as second priority? He was a trained Dark Jedi where as the Reborn had like what, a few months of training and artificial abilities? Even Vandar, a wise Jedi Master, put stopping Malak above destroying the Star Forge. Yoda put stopping Dooku above winning the raging battle going on around him. You cut off the head, the body tends to die. Why Luke would think otherwise I have no idea.

I'm talking about sensing if someone's alive or not, I'm talking about sensing intentions. Sidious was too focused to sense Vader's intentions. Maul didn't sense Obi-Wan's intention. Anakin was rather caught up fighting Dooku. Not to mention there's no way to tell what Anakin sensed, as it is never stated. If Desann is as powerful as you, and I too, think he is, why would he not be able to sense if Luke was dead or not?

And if Desann had the better of Luke in that fight, and if he was about to embark on a job to erradicate the Jedi, why didn't he finish off their Leader and top Master, when he had the chance? i.e the dead head=dead body idea.

As to Kyle's ridiculous powers: He had been cut off for about 2 years actually. If this is about 9 or 10 years after Endor, then yes, 2 to 3. He also received a helpful kick-start from the Valley. And the Reborn were undisciplened, barely trained, and artificially enfused with the Force. I'm not sure if it's quite canon or not, but Kyle also uses several Dark Side attacks, as does Desann. In a side note, as Luke doesn't use any Dark Side moves, it's quite something that he fought Desann for as long as he did, and lived, despite the fact that Kyle had to use them. Tavion was the apprentice to Kyle's equal, and she had not had the amount of training Kyle had. These reasons help explain the carnage Kyle leaves in the game.

I still think it'd be a good fight.

Originally posted by Escape81
I still think it'd be a good fight. Oh yeah.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I'm not saying my version is the be all end all. I'm explaining to you that the game is falible, and susceptible to unintentional alterations.

I may be mistaken, but what's the quote from the game that states Luke wanted Kyle to go with him?

As leader of the Reborn, and virtual second in command next to Hethrir, why would Luke put Desann as second priority? He was a trained Dark Jedi where as the Reborn had like what, a few months of training and artificial abilities? Even Vandar, a wise Jedi Master, put stopping Malak above destroying the Star Forge. Yoda put stopping Dooku above winning the raging battle going on around him. You cut off the head, the body tends to die. Why Luke would think otherwise I have no idea.

I'm talking about sensing if someone's alive or not, I'm talking about sensing intentions. Sidious was too focused to sense Vader's intentions. Maul didn't sense Obi-Wan's intention. Anakin was rather caught up fighting Dooku. Not to mention there's no way to tell what Anakin sensed, as it is never stated. If Desann is as powerful as you, and I too, think he is, why would he not be able to sense if Luke was dead or not?

And if Desann had the better of Luke in that fight, and if he was about to embark on a job to erradicate the Jedi, why didn't he finish off their Leader and top Master, when he had the chance? i.e the dead head=dead body idea.

As to Kyle's ridiculous powers: He had been cut off for about 2 years actually. If this is about 9 or 10 years after Endor, then yes, 2 to 3. He also received a helpful kick-start from the Valley. And the Reborn were undisciplened, barely trained, and artificially enfused with the Force. I'm not sure if it's quite canon or not, but Kyle also uses several Dark Side attacks, as does Desann. In a side note, as Luke doesn't use any Dark Side moves, it's quite something that he fought Desann for as long as he did, and lived, despite the fact that Kyle had to use them. Tavion was the apprentice to Kyle's equal, and she had not had the amount of training Kyle had. These reasons help explain the carnage Kyle leaves in the game.



Fair enough.



He told him that neither should take him on alone, not that he wanted Kyle to go with him, but IF they confronted him they should be 2 on 1.


Ok so that proves Luke was not holding back.... But there are still factors, like stopping the Doomgiver, stopping Admiral Fyyar, stopping the dark jedi from attacking. Killing Desann alone wouldn't solve it....

I thought you just recently said that masking there precense does not indicate power.... Luke could not be sensed in the force if I remember it right, he could at least mask himself in the force.....


As I said, he thought he was dead. And Rouge Squardon was incoming against the Doomgiver, and other rebellion/republic armies where heading this way. Desann had to speed up on destroying the jedi academy, even when he did it the fastest he could it was to slow....


Yes this is basically what I meant. Kyle got even more power than before from the valley, actually a ridicilouse amount of power. Desann stated that he was above his state when he defeated Jerec, who without the valleys power could wave his hand and crash a ship and a landing doc, and by raising his hand immobilize a powerful jedi master while the jedi was fighting...... (Vader did this, but it was against a little kid with not near as much experience).



And Desann laughs because he is made to, and at similar places (like the end).

Originally posted by kamikz
Fair enough.



1.) He told him that neither should take him on alone, not that he wanted Kyle to go with him, but IF they confronted him they should be 2 on 1.


2.) Ok so that proves Luke was not holding back.... But there are still factors, like stopping the Doomgiver, stopping Admiral Fyyar, stopping the dark jedi from attacking. Killing Desann alone wouldn't solve it....

3.) I thought you just recently said that masking there precense does not indicate power.... Luke could not be sensed in the force if I remember it right, he could at least mask himself in the force.....


4.) As I said, he thought he was dead. And Rouge Squardon was incoming against the Doomgiver, and other rebellion/republic armies where heading this way. Desann had to speed up on destroying the jedi academy, even when he did it the fastest he could it was to slow....


5.) Yes this is basically what I meant. Kyle got even more power than before from the valley, actually a ridicilouse amount of power. Desann stated that he was above his state when he defeated Jerec, who without the valleys power could wave his hand and crash a ship and a landing doc, and by raising his hand immobilize a powerful jedi master while the jedi was fighting...... (Vader did this, but it was against a little kid with not near as much experience).



6.) And Desann laughs because he is made to, and at similar places (like the end). Gotta start numbering paragraphs, that took me 5 minutes to sort through.

1.) I gotta play that part again, I hae no recolection of him saying that.

2.) It would solve most of it. Luke admitted before, and was well aware that the Reborn posed a diminshed threat when compared with Desann himself. And if I'm correct, they found out about Desann's planned invasion after boarding the Doomgiver and finding Jan.

3.) I never said it could indicate power. I'm saying that any Force-user with a Padawan ranking can sense if someone's alive or not.

4.) Wrong. Luke and Desann fought while the Doomgiver was still docked in Cairn. Rougue Squadron had not been summoned. And Luke and Kyle hadn't yet figured out Desann's intentions. If Desann was winning that battle like you say, then why didn't he kill Luke when he had the advantage, instead of just running for it? The leader of the invasion and the second in command of the Remnant is not going to be left behind by his own ship in his own base.

5.) I don't even know what this one's about anymore.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Gotta start numbering paragraphs, that took me 5 minutes to sort through.

1.) I gotta play that part again, I hae no recolection of him saying that.

2.) It would solve most of it. Luke admitted before, and was well aware that the Reborn posed a diminshed threat when compared with Desann himself. And if I'm correct, they found out about Desann's planned invasion after boarding the Doomgiver and finding Jan.

3.) I never said it could indicate power. I'm saying that any Force-user with a Padawan ranking can sense if someone's alive or not.

4.) Wrong. Luke and Desann fought while the Doomgiver was still docked in Cairn. Rougue Squadron had not been summoned. And Luke and Kyle hadn't yet figured out Desann's intentions. If Desann was winning that battle like you say, then why didn't he kill Luke when he had the advantage, instead of just running for it? The leader of the invasion and the second in command of the Remnant is not going to be left behind by his own ship in his own base.

5.) I don't even know what this one's about anymore.




1. Do that....

2. Ok so that dispute what the others say about Luke faking it, which proves my point. So we agree then?

3. And both Luke and Desann were masked in force precense. Luke could not be sensed by normal jedi....

4. Ok, but a jedi can see into the future. Desann probably knew (just by pure logic) that the republic would have a hand in helping the jedi, and that this whole thing would not be a walk in the park. Desann thought he crushed Luke under that garbage, and he was going into his ship to finish off the academy. What would one mere jedi be without all the others, against an empire of dark jedi. Luke didn't have much of a hand in this, he wasn't even an active fighter during the taking of the academy. If it wasn't for Kyle, Desann would have taken the academy, Luke says himself he saved his academy.


5. Nope, probably nothing to discuss.

Originally posted by kamikz
1. Do that....

2. Ok so that dispute what the others say about Luke faking it, which proves my point. So we agree then?

3. And both Luke and Desann were masked in force precense. Luke could not be sensed by normal jedi....

4. Ok, but a jedi can see into the future. Desann probably knew (just by pure logic) that the republic would have a hand in helping the jedi, and that this whole thing would not be a walk in the park. Desann thought he crushed Luke under that garbage, and he was going into his ship to finish off the academy. What would one mere jedi be without all the others, against an empire of dark jedi. Luke didn't have much of a hand in this, he wasn't even an active fighter during the taking of the academy. If it wasn't for Kyle, Desann would have taken the academy, Luke says himself he saved his academy.


5. Nope, probably nothing to discuss. 2.) What?

3 and 4 are linked. If Desann is so powerful, why could he not FEEL that Luke was dead? You'll notice that by "seeing in the future," it's only ever about quick reactions, or concentrated sights into the future. Desann isn't a dumbass. He knew very well that Luke was the most powerful Jedi, so why not kill him right then and there so he doesn't pop and get in the way later on? As I said, even a Padawan can detect a lifeforce, so Desann is gonna know if Luke is dead or not after just fighting a fierce battle with him.

Originally posted by Tangible God
2.) What?

3 and 4 are linked. If Desann is so powerful, why could he not FEEL that Luke was dead? You'll notice that by "seeing in the future," it's only ever about quick reactions, or concentrated sights into the future. Desann isn't a dumbass. He knew very well that Luke was the most powerful Jedi, so why not kill him right then and there so he doesn't pop and get in the way later on? As I said, even a Padawan can detect a lifeforce, so Desann is gonna know if Luke is dead or not after just fighting a fierce battle with him.


2. I belived that Luke was giving his all, but I had some things that actually disputed that, but apparently they didn't matter so Luke was not holding back. So we agree on this case then....

3-4. Luke could not be sensed in the force, isn't it simple enough that if he couldn't sense Luke at all before, why should he feel anymore when he is dead? So you shouldn't bring in the "Why didn't he kill Luke when he had the chance" before we both have established completly that Desann didn't know that Luke was dead....

Originally posted by kamikz
2. I belived that Luke was giving his all, but I had some things that actually disputed that, but apparently they didn't matter so Luke was not holding back. So we agree on this case then....

3-4. Luke could not be sensed in the force, isn't it simple enough that if he couldn't sense Luke at all before, why should he feel anymore when he is dead? So you shouldn't bring in the "Why didn't he kill Luke when he had the chance" before we both have established completly that Desann didn't know that Luke was dead.... It was Desann that was masking his presence, not Luke masking his. There's no mention by Desann saying he couldn't feel Luke, it was Luke that could feel Desann. So if Desann could feel Luke, he must have known he was alive, so why didn't he kill him?

Where does he say he could feel Luke? Luke had in other source been claimed by other jedi to not being sensed in the force, so why would Desann be an exception?

Again, this is another part we can only speculate about, as he didn't mention that, but it certainly can't be ruled out entirely. Alot of things in the game we can only guess or presume as to what's going on, so it's hard to judge by.

Yes, so how shall we do this? Continue, or agree to disagree?

The last option. This has become a debate of game mechanics, what ifs, and personal opinions. Mine being Malak would win, despite Malak being mentioned once every ten posts.

Well mine would be that Desann would win, Malak hasn't really shown anything to be above him according to me. But there ain't nothing more we can do in this debate so....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Desann could win this, but unlikely...I doubt Luke gave his all against Desann anyways, at that time, he was way too soft when fighting ex-students

Malak would give his all against Luke.

Malak kills with drain