Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

"Judgment is based off of works."

I heard that tonight.

So, tell me: what would you rather have?

well...salvation and judgement are two different things.

Excellent thread.

why...because it hasn't been discussed in 14 others?

Originally posted by Alliance
well...salvation and judgement are two different things.
That is correct. Pick one.

Originally posted by FeceMan
That is correct. Pick one.

Originally posted by FeceMan
That is correct. Pick one.

Its your thread...you have the honor.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its your thread...you have the honor.
It's not my choice to make--at least for you. I've picked salvation.

Salvation is not a principle that has any meaning to me. I find it to be a fictional concept.

If it does exist, it should be based solely on works..

Originally posted by Alliance
Salvation is not a principle that has any meaning to me. I find it to be a fictional concept.

If it does exist, it should be based solely on works..
Like I said, judgment is based off of works:

Are you worthy, or are you not? Do you deserve life or death?

Salvation just is.

or it is not.

Originally posted by FeceMan
"Judgment is based off of works."

I heard that tonight.

So, tell me: what would you rather have?

Use some scriptural reference that supports the idea that both will not be present. Salvation and judgement will occur.

All sinners will be judged by God, and all sin. There is no means by which one will not be judged.

Originally posted by FeceMan
"Judgment is based off of works."

I heard that tonight.

So, tell me: what would you rather have?

I would have to say judgement based off works rather than salvation based off of faith...

Originally posted by dark99
I would have to say judgement based off works rather than salvation based off of faith...

Well, then it is obvious that you either don't know the Bible or you just choose to disbelieve the Bible.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Well, then it is obvious that you either don't know the Bible or you just choose to disbelieve the Bible.

Excuse me but this topic is about what you would rather have not what is written down in some stupid book. I happen to believe that your place in the afterlife should be determined based on what kind of a person you are not what religion you believe in.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive


You really shouldn't be so obvious, sock.


I especially like how you enter every pro-christian thread and start to act like the expert in the room. You can be retarded arrogant in your own threads, but it's poor form to do so in someone elses thread

According to the Bible "Works and Judgment" go hand in hand. YOU are known for your works and that is what your judgment is based on..your fruits.

So, are your fruits more important in the eye of god, or your work of acceptance? Because there are many people that produce fruits that have not accepted Jesus as a Savior.

This whole you must my a Christian thing is in there...but its over-emphasied in many modern forms of Christianity, namely the extremist branches.

Originally posted by dark99
I happen to believe that your place in the afterlife should be determined based on what kind of a person you are not what religion you believe in.

I agree.

cool...

Originally posted by FeceMan
"Judgment is based off of works."

I heard that tonight.

So, tell me: what would you rather have?

Either salvation or judgement, whatever the concept, should be decided on works. They should be decided on action and intent.

It has always been a big claim from certain Christians that there religion is special as "salvation" is freely given without no demand or expectation of earning it. That God just forgives and you don't have to earn that forgiveness. Inevitably that leads to the "so the mass murderer can pray five minutes before death and get saved while a good hard working nonbeliever will be sent to hell." And that is dodgy as hell.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Either salvation or judgement, whatever the concept, should be decided on works. They should be decided on action and intent.

It has always been a big claim from certain Christians that there religion is special as "salvation" is freely given without no demand or expectation of earning it. That God just forgives and you don't have to earn that forgiveness. Inevitably that leads to the "so the mass murderer can pray five minutes before death and get saved while a good hard working nonbeliever will be sent to hell." And that is dodgy as hell.
I don't see why salvation should be based off of works. Salvation means you are saved, rescued. Only judgment implies scrutiny of one's life.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I don't see why salvation should be based off of works. Salvation means you are saved, rescued. Only judgment implies scrutiny of one's life.

Yes, but saved from what? My religion believes that salvation is the saving of man from the clutches of Satan, that without Christ's sacrifice all men would be doomed to hell in torment with Satan, being damned. The Bible states that even the saved will stand before the judgement seat, why do we stand there if there is no judgement? I believe in salvation, don't get me wrong, but there is still judgement.

Originally posted by Regret
that without Christ's sacrifice all men would be doomed to hell in torment with Satan, being damned.

Does this mean that all Jews were "unsaved" even before Christ?

Becuase it seems unfair if you are "the people of god" is you are dammed, just because your god hasn't gotten of his lazy @ss and sent down himself/his son yet...despite the fact that you do everythign he said.

Originally posted by FeceMan
"Judgment is based off of works."

I heard that tonight.

So, tell me: what would you rather have?

A bowl of ice cream.

There is nothing to be saved from.
There is no judgment day other then today.
Each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
There is no forgiveness beyond that which is in the heart.
You are the only one watching over your shoulder.
You are not a sinful creature, you just have a lot to work on.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A bowl of ice cream.

There is nothing to be saved from.
There is no judgment day other then today.
Each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
There is no forgiveness beyond that which is in the heart.
You are the only one watching over your shoulder.
You are not a sinful creature, you just have a lot to work on.

All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?

My statements are fine. I could quote from the Lotus sutra, but you wouldn't understand.

Two problems with your statement; you have over generalized when you say I never give proof and you wrongly characterize my statements as empty.

You never provide proof, and the bible, just like the Lotus sutra, is not proof. Proof is a waste of time, when you are talking about things that cannot be proven. Empty statement is only how you see what I wrote. What is more likely to be the truth, a newborn baby is condemned to hell, or that hell is just a scare tactic?

Originally posted by Alliance
Does this mean that all Jews were "unsaved" even before Christ?

Becuase it seems unfair if you are "the people of god" is you are dammed, just because your god hasn't gotten of his lazy @ss and sent down himself/his son yet...despite the fact that you do everythign he said.

Nah, everyone is saved. The only thing left is what part of heaven you go to after judgement.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A bowl of ice cream.

There is nothing to be saved from.
There is no judgment day other then today.
Each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
There is no forgiveness beyond that which is in the heart.
You are the only one watching over your shoulder.
You are not a sinful creature, you just have a lot to work on.

Actually the only accurate statement is that each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Actually the only accurate statement is that each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.

In your opinion...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?

Way to skip over "unfounded" accusations. Sock

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?

*heart attak*

Roomate: *CALL 911!*

Originally posted by Regret
Yes, but saved from what? My religion believes that salvation is the saving of man from the clutches of Satan, that without Christ's sacrifice all men would be doomed to hell in torment with Satan, being damned. The Bible states that even the saved will stand before the judgement seat, why do we stand there if there is no judgement? I believe in salvation, don't get me wrong, but there is still judgement.
We'll stand before God and be judged off of what we did in our lives, this is true. However, those who are saved will not have to suffer the second death, and they shall be rewarded for their good works.

Originally posted by FeceMan
We'll stand before God and be judged off of what we did in our lives, this is true. However, those who are saved will not have to suffer the second death, and they shall be rewarded for their good works.

And so judgement does occur. Salvation only mediates some of the penalty.

Originally posted by Regret
And so judgement does occur. Salvation only mediates some of the penalty.
How do you mean?

Originally posted by Regret
Nah, everyone is saved. The only thing left is what part of heaven you go to after judgement.

It is a concept that interests me, and I might be wrong with my terminology, so forgive me. I asked a Mormon about what happens with the people who died before Christ offered the avenue to "salvation" - and I was told they aren't damned (due to the tri-level nature of the afterlife in the Mormon view.)

Also that there is a process (Covenant) where the Mormon church can "bring over" a person who died without knowledge of the Church (seeing as how the Mormon faith is relatively young) so they can gain "salvation." It was a long while ago, so I am vague on it, am I anywhere near the ballpark here?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It is a concept that interests me, and I might be wrong with my terminology, so forgive me. I asked a Mormon about what happens with the people who died before Christ offered the avenue to "salvation" - and I was told they aren't damned (due to the tri-level nature of the afterlife in the Mormon view.)

Also that there is a process (Covenant) where the Mormon church can "bring over" a person who died without knowledge of the Church (seeing as how the Mormon faith is relatively young) so they can gain "salvation." It was a long while ago, so I am vague on it, am I anywhere near the ballpark here?

Mormons believe that salvation has been offered since Adam fell. We believe that to save men from the spiritual death caused by the fall (separation from God) Christ would sacrifice himself. Given this, blood sacrifices were used to remind men of the sacrifice God would make to save us from our sins, so repentance was present prior to Christ's atonement. Following Christ's Atonement the sacrament was instituted as a reminder of the sacrifice that God made to save us from our sins.

We believe that Christ's breaking the bounds of purgatory, allows those who accept his sacrifice to repent and enter paradise after death. We believe that baptism and various other religious ordinances can performed for those that are dead, and then if that person accepts those ordinances (no one is forced to accept vicarious ordinances, they can choose to accept them or they are invalid) that person enjoys the benefits of having performed those ordinances themselves. Thus, all mankind will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel and all its benefits. The only catch is that if one rejects the Gospel here in this life, this possibility is either very difficult or impossible to accept there. We believe that people do not have a full understanding of the nature of existence until judgement, so they must still choose to accept it without full knowledge. So proselyting occurs in purgatory.

If this wasn't clear or not what you were asking let me know.

Originally posted by Regret
Mormons believe that salvation has been offered since Adam fell. We believe that to save men from the spiritual death caused by the fall (separation from God) Christ would sacrifice himself. Given this, blood sacrifices were used to remind men of the sacrifice God would make to save us from our sins, so repentance was present prior to Christ's atonement. Following Christ's Atonement the sacrament was instituted as a reminder of the sacrifice that God made to save us from our sins.

We believe that Christ's breaking the bounds of purgatory, allows those who accept his sacrifice to repent and enter paradise after death. We believe that baptism and various other religious ordinances can performed for those that are dead, and then if that person accepts those ordinances (no one is forced to accept vicarious ordinances, they can choose to accept them or they are invalid) that person enjoys the benefits of having performed those ordinances themselves. Thus, all mankind will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel and all its benefits. The only catch is that if one rejects the Gospel here in this life, this possibility is either very difficult or impossible to accept there. We believe that people do not have a full understanding of the nature of existence until judgement, so they must still choose to accept it without full knowledge. So proselyting occurs in purgatory.

If this wasn't clear or not what you were asking let me know.

Yes, the cleared it up perfectly. You could be a missionary, it was a lot clearer then what a remember being told a few years ago.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yes, the cleared it up perfectly. You could be a missionary, it was a lot clearer then what a remember being told a few years ago.

I think many Mormons just don't understand how to explain the concept to someone who is unfamiliar with our beliefs. I actually never did the missionary thing. I often wish I had, but regrets are really only worth while if you get over them and don't make the same mistake twice

Ohhh, he's a Mormon.

Originally posted by Regret
I think many Mormons just don't understand how to explain the concept to someone who is unfamiliar with our beliefs. I actually never did the missionary thing. I often wish I had, but regrets are really only worth while if you get over them and don't make the same mistake twice

True, true.

And I know someone at Uni here who is a Mormon and was a missionary once, how they get the places they go to are selected. I was surprised that they might end up being a missionary in a place where they might not even speak the language, but I guess he was right and it is an opportunity to learn.



Who?

ITS A MORMON!

Regret is a Mormon.

Yeah. Whats your "."

Originally posted by Alliance
ITS A MORMON!

I remember that Chick tract that dealt with Mormons. The girls horror as her spinster aunt let them in "They're Mormons!"



And? I thought everyone knew that.

Originally posted by Alliance
Yeah. Whats your "."
I don't know what a is.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I remember that Chick tract that dealt with Mormons. The girls horror as her spinster aunt let them in "They're Mormons!"



And? I thought everyone knew that.

ahhh, yes... I remember. As her face melts off

Mormon: "Girl, I am your father."
Girl: "NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!."

Then god appears and smotes the Mormons.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?

And what evidense have you ever provided for your absurd arguments ?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And I know someone at Uni here who is a Mormon and was a missionary once, how they get the places they go to are selected. I was surprised that they might end up being a missionary in a place where they might not even speak the language, but I guess he was right and it is an opportunity to learn.

Yeah, although they learn the language before going to a country. Foreign speaking missionaries get up to nine weeks of training prior to being sent to the country they are called to. If the missionary already speaks the language they go to missionary training for three weeks.

missionary position? lol

Its required (exceedingly and forcefully reccomended?) in the Mormon Church.

The mormon I know did his missionary work in Puerto Rico.

Originally posted by Alliance
Its required (exceedingly and forcefully reccomended?) in the Mormon Church.

The mormon I know did his missionary work in Puerto Rico.

For Mormons it has been stated that all young men should serve a full time mission (i.e. 2 year mission at the age of 19)

Yes. He did two years...but he alwas talks about how he liked it so much....i sometimes questioned whether or nto he jsut wanted to spend two years in PR.

Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. He did two years...but he alwas talks about how he liked it so much....i sometimes questioned whether or nto he jsut wanted to spend two years in PR.

Well, Mormons believe missionaries are closer to the spirit than most lay people in the LDS Church due to their need for more direct aid in teaching than most need. Given this typically Mormons will have a stronger experience. From a secular stance one might claim it is due to the perception/placebo effect, from our stance we believe the spirit is stronger during that time. Either way they tend to return having enjoyed it.

I would enjoy two years in Puerto Rico.

Originally posted by Alliance
I would enjoy two years in Puerto Rico.

But, would you like two years in Puerto Rico in a suit, trying to talk to people about a religion they didn't believe in? My brother went to Hawaii on his mission, they were allowed short sleeve white shirts.

Surely, they have SOME free time.

Originally posted by Alliance
Surely, they have SOME free time.

They get a preparation day (P-day) once a week where they are allowed to clean their clothes, shop for groceries, etc. But they are encouraged to spend their time productively, and dress code is somewhat more lax. Typically though, from those I have spoken with P-day is rather busy doing various chores and writing letters to friends and family. The rest of the days of the week are for missionary work and so activities on a P-day are often more functional than recreational, but most missionaries have a few hours to play basketball or something.

Yup. A few hours a day.

Originally posted by Alliance
Yup. A few hours a day.

Lol, they should only have a few hours a week, their days are typically structured from 6:00 Am-9:PM

"should"

Originally posted by Alliance
"should"

Yes, "should." I would wager that most missionaries stick to the prescribed routine, although I am sure that if anyone were to look for those that were not that there would be missionaries found not doing what they should. Any area where behavior is "supposed" to be a certain way will have very strict adherents and very lax adherents, the rule of the bell curve applies to man in all aspects of behavior.

Out of interest - where do they get their money from? Is missionaring a paid position, or do they have to get jobs and work them into their schedule? Or do they simply save up before they start and live on those savings?

A lot of the money comes from personal savings and donations, I believe.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Out of interest - where do they get their money from? Is missionaring a paid position, or do they have to get jobs and work them into their schedule? Or do they simply save up before they start and live on those savings?

The LDS Church doesn't pay clergy. Missionaries are supposed to pay $300-400 per month towards their upkeep. This goes into a fund and is distributed as needed. This is due to some missions requiring up to $2000 per month down to less than $100 per month. The amount they are asked to pay is enough to cover the spread, when all missionary funds are dispersed. If someone is unable to support their mission, the Church will step in and cover them. There is not pressure to pay, so that those without the means are able to go without negative feelings about this. One may serve regardless of economic status. The only financial areas that would prohibit service would include debt issues. The LDS Church preaches against debt, as it limits ones freedom, and does not support any means of not repaying debt to debtors, such as credit corporations etc.

Many also have personal accounts that pay for food etc. via debit cards.