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who takes it?

I don't know, Lurtz was damn skilled, wasn't he the first Uruk-Hai that Saruman created? (It looked like that in the film at least, and since he does not exist in the book....)
Well since he was able to duke it out for a short while with Aragorn, while others died like flies, I'd say Lurtz take it. The orc Gothmog.... I have no idea who he is, so I can't say...

It's hard to tell... Ugluk and Lurtz are pretty much the same. because there is no lurtz in the books, and ugluk is the leader of the uruk-hai who captured merry and pippin. so the should be equally good. now peter jackson has made this lurtz figure, and he is a good fighter. and P J's ugluk probably is the orc who leads the group of uruks in the two towers. further more, we don't know anything about ugluks skills... well I think lurtz takes him out. he's a lot better then normal uruk-hai.

can't remember ever hearing about an orc named gothmog...

Apparently Gothmog is that really ugly one that led the Seige of Minas Tirith in the movie

another made up? ok well he sucks. I mean he's crippled nad stuff, ugluk wins.

Originally posted by vanice
another made up? ok well he sucks. I mean he's crippled nad stuff, ugluk wins.

Gothmog was in the books as well. After the Witch-king died he took command of the armies of Minas Morgul.

ok, thanks for the help. peter Jackson must have changed the story though. giving gothmog a bigger role. because he seems to bee the one leading the attack on osgiliath. just wondering, kinda off topic, but what happened to the witch-king. he couldn't have died. his life was bound to the ring as well. well, he left the battle field. that's for sure.

I think the book makes it pretty clear that he does die....

(Translated directly from the Swedish version)

"His robe and crown was now empty, formless where they laid on the ground broken, and a cry in the air faded away in a moaning shriek, and was carried away by the wind, a voice without a body, a thin and terrible voice that faded away and was consumed by space and never to be heard of again...."


I think it's pretty clear that he died, at least in a way that spirits die. Either way, he would never return...

Originally posted by kamikz
I think the book makes it pretty clear that he does die....

(Translated directly from the Swedish version)

"His robe and crown was now empty, formless where they laid on the ground broken, and a cry in the air faded away in a moaning shriek, and was carried away by the wind, a voice without a body, a thin and terrible voice that faded away and was consumed by space and never to be heard of again...."


I think it's pretty clear that he died, at least in a way that spirits die. Either way, he would never return...

If Sauron did regain the One Ring he might have returned.

Maybe, maybe not.

Originally posted by kamikz
I think the book makes it pretty clear that he does die....

(Translated directly from the Swedish version)

"His robe and crown was now empty, formless where they laid on the ground broken, and a cry in the air faded away in a moaning shriek, and was carried away by the wind, a voice without a body, a thin and terrible voice that faded away and was consumed by space and never to be heard of again...."


I think it's pretty clear that he died, at least in a way that spirits die. Either way, he would never return...

my interpretation of that quote is that he made an awful cry of pain and then disappeared. his spirit should have survived though, but just like sauron he can never take physical form again unless he or sauron gets the ring. nor can he die unless the ring is destroyed.

Well then the point is still irrelivent, since he ain't coming back no more...

It could be possible that the Witch-King in that instant was sent to the Void the same place that the fates of Morgoth, Sauron and the other Eight will take them. Whilst he would not be "dead" his spirit would be held in the void until the Dagor Dagorath. When upon then it is possible, he could return.

So he was "dead", at least in the mortal world for the time being. Which was the point of the whole thing.... :/

I'm just evolving the topic, I accept totally that he was destroyed at least temporarily.

Well, I agree with the Fallen's theory as the it seems the most logical, still, I would say that weren't the minions of Melkor the one's who were supposed to return on the Day of Dagor Dagorath, and as to the other freinds on the forum, Ugluk isn't as bad as PJ made him and also, PJ gave most of the part of Ugluk to Lurtz, so Lurtz was just a substitution in the movie, the rest about the battle , you can do the imagery in your mind.

All said and done, I'd say that Ugluk would Win and as I haven't read LOTR since ages past, I can't comment about Gothmog, though the name is one to instill fear in a foes mind, I would not comment on his battle prowess and move on and say that not all strategic geniuses are good warriors, Sauron and Melkor are ample examples though the latter was much more than that.

With where lurtz' character comes in compared to ugluk's, it was clear that lurtz was meant to be the last big bad apart from the balrog and nazgul that the fellowship would face together, the new threat that would up-end things and leave the cliffhanger for the next part. with ugluk's introduction we see him in a fairly less threatening position running away from gimli, legolas and aragorn, having already been introduced to the uruks and its a matter of time before they are overcome as an obstacle for the heroes and aren't even killed by the main characters trying to rescue their captives. ugluk is not a big baddie and is never presented as one- so the optics from the outset have favoured lurtz to be more memorable and striking.

Ugluk apart from manhandling other orcs has not been shown using much physical strength but offscreen forced eomer to dismount his horse near fangorn before he was ultimately killed along with his whole company. he argued with another company of lesser mordor orcs about which group had the right to take the captive hobbits, more in the extended, and that shows that ugluk is big, brutish and can dominate other orcs and subordinates physically and verbally, and he leads the troops in a quickened pace with diligence before reluctantly settling down to camp outside fangorn when other orcs complained. a very different leader is seen with ugluk than with lurtz, one that can compromise, control his temper, share a laugh with his company when trying to force feed pippin, and negotiate albeit with hostility when rival orcs challenge his authority- not resorting to an all out massacre, which lurtz would seem all too happy to do.
ugluk's focus when we see him is never on tasting man flesh or fighting any people, because his mission is solely to deliver the captives to isengard which he tries to see through with discipline but also and a strong will for an orc- a trait similar to lurtz but in critically different areas of focus.

Lurtz has snapped an orc's windpipe, picked up and thrown aragorn, when pushing in a sword cross, he sent him flying back into a tree 5 metres away and under his leadership they captured the supposed hobbits and killed a crucial member of the fellowship himself ensuring the company got away- all without resting. interesting to note that in both films saruman's uruks were seen being brutally injured and killed, saruman told them at the beginning- the scouts in particular, but possibly all others thereafter, they do not know fear or pain- either as a command or a statement.. and the only one of their number that exemplified that in any way apart from the special berserkers much later, was lurtz. it doesn't matter an awful lot in the end, but it speaks to the character of lurtz and his intensity, determination, endurance that even in the inevitable end, he still won't stop until you take his head off.

Good post.

Only thing that needs to be added is that Jackson intended Lurtz to be the first and the most powerful of Saruman's Uruk-hai.

His on-screen feats prove it correct.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Good post.

Only thing that needs to be added is a moustaaaaaaaaaache. I agree.