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Can the White Wizard overcome the Dark Lord?

I have to say I think Vader would win this. The Force can be used as both Passive and Offensive to a much higher degree than the natural power of the Istari. The Istari generally doesn't manifest something as deadly as Force Lightning and especially not for any sustained period of time. Even if we compare the two on a physical combat level longsword vs Lightsaber really doesn't work too well.

Why did u have to make this topic ????????????

Vader would easily win a fight with gandalf.

even tho gandalf is powerful, its not really anything compared to the darkside of the force.

vader wins this. he can do thins that gandalf can't parry. for example he choked a human being through a camera. he wasn't even in the same room!! I don't know if vader can do force lightning, he doesn't do it in the movie anyway. gandalf makes a small lightning in bilbo when attacked by goblins. nothing compared with sidious attacks really... gandalf will be defence less to the lightsaber as well. and vader can simply pull gandalfs staff. then gandalf can do even less. vader pwns.

Originally posted by thefallen544
I have to say I think Vader would win this. The Force can be used as both Passive and Offensive to a much higher degree than the natural power of the Istari. The Istari generally doesn't manifest something as deadly as Force Lightning and especially not for any sustained period of time. Even if we compare the two on a physical combat level longsword vs Lightsaber really doesn't work too well.



Agreed. ^

Vader should have been able to use force lightening in theory, but due to his injuries he lost a lot of his power. It is also a strong theory that the force lightening requires organic matter to pass through as such Vader would not be able to fire it through his hands. Still even without the offensive threat of Force Lightning. Gandalf is defenseless against the Choking methods of Vader and lacks the offensive power to take him down.

yupp

Originally posted by thefallen544
Vader should have been able to use force lightening in theory, but due to his injuries he lost a lot of his power. It is also a strong theory that the force lightening requires organic matter to pass through as such Vader would not be able to fire it through his hands. Still even without the offensive threat of Force Lightning. Gandalf is defenseless against the Choking methods of Vader and lacks the offensive power to take him down.


It is possible that Vader could fire lightning, though then he would fry his own metal hands on the way...

just coz its star wars vader wins

Originally posted by kamikz
It is possible that Vader could fire lightning, though then he would fry his own metal hands on the way...

Vader: Ahhhh tingly...
*Power panel dies*
Vader: Thats not good....okay anyone got jump leads?

Lol, yeah that would kinda be what would happen. I think he can, but it would be worthless as a weapon since he'd hurt himself...

A couple things about this. People say Vader could use the force choke but from what I remember(correct me if I'm wrong) didn't that not work on stronger willed people? I don't think he's ever used it on a Jedi for instance and Gandalf may be no Jedi but he's much more powerful then any regular person.

Also during the battle between Saruman and Gandalf they used pushes and pulls with magic similar to something you would see done with the force. Being Gandalf is more powerful as Gandalf the White then Saruman, I think it wouldn't be completely impossible that he could pull Vader's saber away just as easily as Vader could pull his staff. Of course this idea is based soley on the movies, as far as the LoTR novels I've only read the first one and not sure of the extent of Gandalf's power.

But the fact that a light saber can cut through anything that Gandalf might have, he's still at an unfair disadvantage. I just think it would be alittle closer then Vader simply pwning Gandalf.

Hm..not exactly.

In one of the comics, Vader force chocked a Jedi Master, while saber fighting another. Also, even if Vader lost his saber he still ahs more physical strength then Gandalph, and cana lso still use the force.

vader would win, but I agree that he wouldn't pwn.

On a side note I've never under stood why people spell it Gandalph...Anyhoo. Gandalf is pretty strong willed but the fight between Saurman and Gandalf involving the pushes and pulls is somewhat of a film "make it look good for the punters" thing. Its not like the force one cannot just yank things from each others hands swords etc. It may also be wise to point out that Gandalf's power was not housed in his staff it was within him. Without his staff he wouldn't have been powerless. He is however very unlikley to win against Vader.

Originally posted by OzzieArcane
A couple things about this. People say Vader could use the force choke but from what I remember(correct me if I'm wrong) didn't that not work on stronger willed people? I don't think he's ever used it on a Jedi for instance and Gandalf may be no Jedi but he's much more powerful then any regular person.

Also during the battle between Saruman and Gandalf they used pushes and pulls with magic similar to something you would see done with the force. Being Gandalf is more powerful as Gandalf the White then Saruman, I think it wouldn't be completely impossible that he could pull Vader's saber away just as easily as Vader could pull his staff. Of course this idea is based soley on the movies, as far as the LoTR novels I've only read the first one and not sure of the extent of Gandalf's power.

But the fact that a light saber can cut through anything that Gandalf might have, he's still at an unfair disadvantage. I just think it would be alittle closer then Vader simply pwning Gandalf.


I belive you are confusing it with mind trick, cause choking people isn't limited to that, you actually don't try to mess with their mind, you just take a grip around their throat. He could force crush him as well, which would crush his lungs and... well his entire body....

vader has the force but gandalf has a beard, and vader cant compete with that cause have you seen that cat with his helmet off its like one of those hairless dogs......anyways gandalf would win cause he can grow facial hair........

If we are talking about the Darth Vader from Eps 4,5, and 6 then the White Wizard will prevail. Eps 3 Vader is a Stale Mate IMO.

Nah, its the other way around.

Vader is a lot more powerful in the OT then he was in the PT. More powerful in the force, anywya. But he had a pretty good one handed Djem-So thing going on to. He DID kill like, 6 Jedi Masters by himself at the same time in his suit.

All well and good to say Gandalf would win in your opinion, but why do you think that. What could he use against Vader looking at the limitations put upon the character.

man, gandalf is so much more awesome this question shouldnt even exist.

Yeah, Demi-God sounds good on paper, but that has close to no impact on the fight whatsoever. Even if Gandy is a spirit, if his physical body dies he will lose the match.

Also, Vader, as well as other force wielders have been able to block lightning with almost no effort. Gandalf simply having lightning attacks doesn't guarantee him the win.

Thirdly, I find that the Baelrogs fire is more of a magical fire then a physical heat, and besides even if the Baelrogs heat is pretty intense, it's got nothing on a weapon that is hotter then a miniature sun.

And, finally, will means nothing as Vaders force choke is not magical in a sense. He's basically just closing your windpipe. I have a feeling that if Gandalf were to choke on a stringy piece of chicken he would probably die...

Originally posted by Blax X
Yeah, Demi-God sounds good on paper, but that has close to no impact on the fight whatsoever. Even if Gandy is a spirit, if his physical body dies he will lose the match.

Also, Vader, as well as other force wielders have been able to block lightning with almost no effort. Gandalf simply having lightning attacks doesn't guarantee him the win.

Thirdly, I find that the Baelrogs fire is more of a magical fire then a physical heat, and besides even if the Baelrogs heat is pretty intense, it's got nothing on a weapon that is hotter then a miniature sun.

And, finally, will means nothing as Vaders force choke is not magical in a sense. He's basically just closing your windpipe. I have a feeling that if Gandalf were to choke on a stringy piece of chicken he would probably die...


Agreed with this, especially on the first point, which I think is overused by to many people.... (What sounds good on paper that is).

Honestly, it's the first to draw who wins. Vader choking Gandalf, or Gandalf setting Vader on fire and incinerating him.

And how do we know that Vader's suit isn't fire proof? It can block light sabers pretty good.

I believe Vaders suit is flame retardant, at least to a point. I didn't think it could block lightsabers however. Also where is this that Gandalf can just set things, let alone people on fire at will? That is some display of power and it is one Gandalf just doesn't seem to have, unless I can find/see otherwise.

not to mean but darth going against a wizard doesnt make no sense now lets say you say merlin and gandalf that would make more sense in a way!

Well not entirely resistant to sabers. But it doesn offer protection.

In the books Vader can get hit multiple times with a lightsaber before the saber eventually burns through Vader's thick armor.

Thats quite interesting, was Lukes saber in the film more powerful than others or was maybe Vaders protection something to do with the force and thus if he doesn't keep it up or sustains enough hits he succumbs.

No, its the samr for Luke.

If you rememebr, in TESB (Empiroe strikes back) when Luek and vader fight Luek manages to hit Vader in the shoulder, however Luke's saber doesn't go through the armor, but just puts a deep cut in it.

The same thing happens in the books.

Ah yes indeed you are quite right.

gandalf could liek wisper a spell and have vader dancing and singing for him.
either that or he'd be all like " help me out valar" then vader would be a smouldering pile of leather.

The Valar didn't directly get involved especially not in individual conflicts. Apart from them sending the Istari there is really no great involvement. I doubt Tulkas is going to come over the Sea just to kick one leather clan psycho's ass for Olorin/Gandalf. Plus the spells in Tolkeins world arn't like that, they are more subtle they do not have the same offensive kick, its not D&D.

in the hobbit Gandalf kills Goblins with lightning, isn't vader partly metal?

Partly metal yes, although if you see Blax X's post he quotes about Star Wars
"Also, Vader, as well as other force wielders have been able to block lightning with almost no effort. Gandalf simply having lightning attacks doesn't guarantee him the win."

So whilst Gandalf could give him a shock, I doubt it would be enough to kill him.

vader is half man half machine and gandalf a wizard

Yes...yes he is...sorry I'm not quite sure which side of the argument you're on here Cool.

am on gandalf's side all the way

It's very hard to say what gandalf can or can not do. He sure makes some trees burn in the books, while getting attacked by wargs in FOTR. But I don't think he can burn people because of that. If he could why not burn the wargs instead?

I don't know if gandalf can make these lightning beams that he makes in the films, and games. can't remember that ever happening in the books..

I don't think he can just draw out the evil out of Vader like he did with Theoden. It's not the same situation at all. Sidious doesn't control Vader in the same way as Saruman did. And even if he would try to do it, Vader would of course resist and fight back. Gandalf cand just stand there "humming" like he did with Theoden.

Now tell me. How is Gandalf supposed to parry force push, pull (his staff for instance), choke, speed and so on.. ???

well Gandalf can create lightening, and i'm pretty sure he would be able to create some sort of shield to protect himself.

His powers arn't as advanced he can't just create stuff per se. Magic is draining upon him and its not as all powerful as most Wizards are seen. In Tolkeins world magic isnt as overt as we see it in Harry Potter with spells to protect or kill, its subtle its manipulation of the weather or the elements to totally shield himself doesn't happen, much like he didn't do this when he fought the Balrog.

Originally posted by Captain SEX


Vader, as well as other force wielders have been able to block lightning with almost no effort. Gandalf simply having lightning attacks doesn't guarantee him the win.

Thirdly, I find that the Baelrogs fire is more of a magical fire then a physical heat, and besides even if the Baelrogs heat is pretty intense, it's got nothing on a weapon that is hotter then a miniature sun.

And, finally, will means nothing as Vaders force choke is not magical in a sense. He's basically just closing your windpipe. I have a feeling that if Gandalf were to choke on a stringy piece of chicken he would probably die...

Indeed. Gandalf is definently very powerful. But he doesn't have as wide a range of offensive powers at his disposal.

some where it says that the white wizard couldn't be harmed by any eapon. I'm going to go with gandalf

Lol..Gandalf is a wizard... Vader would perhapse strike him down if he gets close, but Gandalf can push him away. and than toast him like a chicken..

Well actually, Vader is very proficiant when it comes to pushing people, he pushed a person like 30m in a comic, and he died when he crashed into the wall. He can force crush people, which destroyes all your internal organs, like your lungs and destroys all your bones. Oh, and his suit is fire resistant.

Vader would win - he is a "wizard" with the force....and got a light-saber.

I am presuming for purposes of this thread that the restraints that Eru and the Valar put on Gandalf are lifted.

Vader cannot win this. Gandalf cannot be killed. If you destroy his body he will just reincarnate, so there may be a delay between rounds but Gandalf can just keep coming back.

Second, Gandalf is almost as powerful as Sauron and about as powerful as a Balrog. Gandalf made a shield that blocked a downward swipe from a being who can punch through granite...if Gandalf puts that shield up, Vader is not going to be able to hit him.

Why would you assume that the restrictions ar lifted. That would imply that Gandalf was no longer in the form of Gandalf it would in fact be Olorin Vs Vader and then that may be different. Plus it was Eru that sent Gandalf back, he didn't chose to come back himself. He was sent back. I don't think every time he would be sent back ad infinitanium. Gandalf even as Olorin was afraid of Sauron, he thought of himself as weaker than him. And whilst he is strong, the only one capable of taking up the one ring and becoming a new lord of the rings.

In the books it is hotly contested that Balrogs do not look like the film portrayal they are said to be about the same height as a man but more fearsome. I think it mentions that they are surrounded by shadow. They are not massive, massive fire breathing demons with wings.

Because to work out logically this fight must take place in a neutral battleground where all their powers work as described.

The only place where no return is allowed to from the Undying Lands is Arda. This is by act of Eru when he destroyed Numenor, made Arda round and allowed the Straight Path only one way and only openable by Elves fleeing Middle Earth.

Personally I think Manwe at Eru's allowance and orders sent Gandalf back, rather than Eru himself. But that is quibbling over semantics.

Also, since there are no midicholorians on Arda, Vaders powers would not work there.

As to the Balrogs, when they were still Maia they could change shape like every other maiar, you know grow a new body.

The confusion over the form of the Balrogs comes from the fact that Tolkien invented the idea for another non-LotR work. In that work they were basically a really powerful demonic cavalry who looked more or less like men but were bigger.

When he pulled the idea into the LotR, he changed it quite a bit. The Balrogs described in the Silmarilan seem to resemble somewhat the creatures seen in Jackson's movies.

And IIRC Gothmog has wings and one or two other instances describe Balrogs as having wings... but I don't have the quotes off hand.

There are tons of essays and articles fighting that fight one way or another.

But Gandalf did not just grow a new body (like Seamonkies) instead he was sent back to his old body, he awoke naked reborn. He did not reform in the undying lands and think "Oh bugger". He says himself he passed beyond the circles of the world. The only two things that lie out there are Eru and the Void. To further the point, the Valar cannot make or restore life they can form the body's but cannot instill in it a soul, this has to be done by Eru.

If both use their full powers then Ganda;f is still tied to his mortal body. If he unleashed the power of the true Maiar spirit then it ceases to be Gandalf v Vader and becomes Olorin V Vader in which case I think Olorin would win.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
I am presuming for purposes of this thread that the restraints that Eru and the Valar put on Gandalf are lifted.

Vader cannot win this. Gandalf cannot be killed. If you destroy his body he will just reincarnate, so there may be a delay between rounds but Gandalf can just keep coming back.

Second, Gandalf is almost as powerful as Sauron and about as powerful as a Balrog. Gandalf made a shield that blocked a downward swipe from a being who can punch through granite...if Gandalf puts that shield up, Vader is not going to be able to hit him.

It doesn't matter.

You win a fight by making the opponent unable to fight back, which means you can knock them out, kill them, cut off a limb ect.

If Vader kills gandalfs mortal body then he wins automatically.

The match isn't going to wait a day or two for Ganndfalf to come back to life, and he certainly isn't just going to come back instantaneously. So yes, if gandalf dies, Vader wins the match because their is no "rounds".

Besides, who says vader will kill him? Force crushing his legs and arms will suffice as Gandalf won't die, just lose all his limbs.

Or vader could just force choke him until Gandalf is unconscious, he will win then to.

Originally posted by thefallen544
But Gandalf did not just grow a new body (like Seamonkies) instead he was sent back to his old body, he awoke naked reborn. He did not reform in the undying lands and think "Oh bugger". He says himself he passed beyond the circles of the world. The only two things that lie out there are Eru and the Void. To further the point, the Valar cannot make or restore life they can form the body's but cannot instill in it a soul, this has to be done by Eru.

If both use their full powers then Ganda;f is still tied to his mortal body. If he unleashed the power of the true Maiar spirit then it ceases to be Gandalf v Vader and becomes Olorin V Vader in which case I think Olorin would win.

The Undying Lands are no longer on Arda. They were removed by Eru when he made the Arda spherical after he destroyed Numenor.

They are somewhere else. Gandalf cannot, as per the Silmarilion leave the universe. All the Ainur who entered are bound until the end of time not to leave it, unless they are ejected ala Morgoth.

Gandalf's spirit was sent to the Halls of Mandos or somewhere else in the Undying Lands, where he would have reincarnated in a new body, but he was sent back to his old body and he was able to reanimate it.

Originally posted by Blaxican
It doesn't matter.

You win a fight by making the opponent unable to fight back, which means you can knock them out, kill them, cut off a limb ect.

If Vader kills gandalfs mortal body then he wins automatically.

The match isn't going to wait a day or two for Ganndfalf to come back to life, and he certainly isn't just going to come back instantaneously. So yes, if gandalf dies, Vader wins the match because their is no "rounds".

Besides, who says vader will kill him? Force crushing his legs and arms will suffice as Gandalf won't die, just lose all his limbs.

Or vader could just force choke him until Gandalf is unconscious, he will win then to.

Movie Gandalf was capable of making a shield that resisted an over hand blow from a Balrog, a begin who was pounding through solid granite walls.

I'd like to see Vader generate even half that much for.

Ok, and as to the force being used to crush Gandalf, his body in the movies resisted falling thousands of feet. He did not die from the impact and was mostly unharmed. Let's see Vader generate that much force.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Movie Gandalf was capable of making a shield that resisted an over hand blow from a Balrog, a begin who was pounding through solid granite walls.

A) The movies aren't even considered cannon, the books are.

B) It took Gandalf at least five seconds to make that shield, more then enough time for Vader to simply slice his arms off or just force choke him.


Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Ok, and as to the force being used to crush Gandalf, his body in the movies resisted falling thousands of feet. He did not die from the impact and was mostly unharmed. Let's see Vader generate that much force.

The movies just showed the two falling toward a lake, and it's never described what actually happened after that other then the fight at the top of Durin's tower. (It is Durin's tower right?) For all we know, The Baelrog might have just flown away, with Gandalf riding on top of him. It's not like Gandalf just impacted against the ground, then got up and walked away.

Their goes your argument.

Originally posted by Blaxican
A) The movies aren't even considered cannon, the books are.

B) It took Gandalf at least five seconds to make that shield, more then enough time for Vader to simply slice his arms off or just force choke him.

Thanks for reminding me

Novel Gandalf is more powerful than book Gandalf

Originally posted by Blaxican
The movies just showed the two falling toward a lake, and it's never described what actually happened after that other then the fight at the top of Durin's tower. (It is Durin's tower right?) For all we know, The Baelrog might have just flown away, with Gandalf riding on top of him. It's not like Gandalf just impacted against the ground, then got up and walked away.

Their goes your argument.

The TT shows them hitting.

And novel Gandalf is more powerful than that.

Ask yourself this question.

Could Vader defeat a Balrog?

Gandalf is almost as powerful as Sauron who is as or more powerful than a standard Balrog.

Oh heck, is this kind of vs. crap coming to LOTR?

General rule for vs- don't stray outside the franchise.

Very decisively closed!