For everyone who calls themself a Christian...

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silk4life
**Disclaimer**Please, this question is for Christians only. In the past, I have often gotten in debates on sites such as Myspace with other enlighten individuals and some responses I found great value in and of course, there were those who probably should have just ignored the topic at hand. If you want to curse, please, show some honor and self-control as I am not attacking anyone here, but, I just want an honest question. Love this world, love the imperfections of men, science, lust, money, family, friends, all good and bad, whatever they may be. But, I do not personally have any desire to argue why you shouldn't and I think we all can agree in everyone having the free will to choose the path that is right for them! 1 LUV!

I notice a poll by JesusisAlive and it compelled me to ask Christians a question. I do not refer myself as a Christian or any label but a bond servant of Christ. So for anyone wondering, yes, I do follow the teaching of Christ as it has become my own personal testimony. But, for those who claim that they believe they are going to heaven, I am wondering why do you believe that you are saved? Have you are received the Holy Spirit or are you just answering "Yes" as it has become quite a cliche answer for believers to say. I ask because the road is narrow and there are many among us to walk the broad path. There are those who partake in things of this world with desire in their hearts when if you truly believe you are an elect of God, you would have no love for anything of this world knowing everything of value will eventually fade. So not to wonder from the purpose of my topic, again, for those who are Believers, why do you believe you are saved? Keep in mind, the word of God is eternal, it does not sway to the left or to the right nor does it adapt to the changes of society as what is considered to be sin is quite common and goes unrepented. So please, think hard before answering this question. Thanks! 1 LUV!

Shakyamunison
I wish people would not make one religion only threads.

Quiero Mota
blink Ok, so what are you asking??

Dusty
Originally posted by silk4life
I have often gotten in debates on sites such as Myspace with other enlighten individuals

Biggest mistake right there.

silk4life
With all do respect, Shakyamunison, I do not follow religion nor believe in it. My path is my faith. But, I do not me to leave out anyone of other religions either, but, the desire of my topic is representation from Christians. I do not have the authority to stop you or anyone else from replying though. I agreed, Dusty, as i have found it to be in vain and not in edifciation of my brothers and sister so I no longer to it. But, Quiero Mota, my question is a followup to the "Are you going to heaven" poll. And that follow up is why? I have no desire to argue with any of those answers nor really to reply, it was just something that was missing that I was compelled to ask. And if one soul hesitates, it may very well help them!

Quiero Mota
Am I the only one who smells a sock?

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
blink Ok, so what are you asking??

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by silk4life
**Disclaimer**Please, this question is for Christians only. In the past, I have often gotten in debates on sites such as Myspace with other enlighten individuals and some responses I found great value in and of course, there were those who probably should have just ignored the topic at hand. If you want to curse, please, show some honor and self-control as I am not attacking anyone here, but, I just want an honest question. Love this world, love the imperfections of men, science, lust, money, family, friends, all good and bad, whatever they may be. But, I do not personally have any desire to argue why you shouldn't and I think we all can agree in everyone having the free will to choose the path that is right for them! 1 LUV!

I notice a poll by JesusisAlive and it compelled me to ask Christians a question. I do not refer myself as a Christian or any label but a bond servant of Christ. So for anyone wondering, yes, I do follow the teaching of Christ as it has become my own personal testimony. But, for those who claim that they believe they are going to heaven, I am wondering why do you believe that you are saved? Have you are received the Holy Spirit or are you just answering "Yes" as it has become quite a cliche answer for believers to say. I ask because the road is narrow and there are many among us to walk the broad path. There are those who partake in things of this world with desire in their hearts when if you truly believe you are an elect of God, you would have no love for anything of this world knowing everything of value will eventually fade. So not to wonder from the purpose of my topic, again, for those who are Believers, why do you believe you are saved? Keep in mind, the word of God is eternal, it does not sway to the left or to the right nor does it adapt to the changes of society as what is considered to be sin is quite common and goes unrepented. So please, think hard before answering this question. Thanks! 1 LUV!

Umm..Urizen - at least if you're going to create multiple socks to profess this non - religious agenda, stick to one for a little..and pick a better name next time too..He..He..

Naz
Yawn. Sock or not, I feel like answering the question.
I do not know if I am going to Heaven. No one knows if they are going to Heaven or not. All one can do (assuming they are Christian or whatever, blahty blah) is live their life the best they can and hope that they have pleased God. In my opinion, anyone who when asked tells you that they're going to Heaven, is very very arrogant, and thus commiting the sin of pride. Which probably wouldn't land you in Heaven anyway. Go figure.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Naz
Yawn. Sock or not, I feel like answering the question.
I do not know if I am going to Heaven. No one knows if they are going to Heaven or not. All one can do (assuming they are Christian or whatever, blahty blah) is live their life the best they can and hope that they have pleased God. In my opinion, anyone who when asked tells you that they're going to Heaven, is very very arrogant, and thus commiting the sin of pride. Which probably wouldn't land you in Heaven anyway. Go figure.

No one can be for certain in themselves(or in their own abilities) But they can be for certain about Christ - and the truth of his word. If one truly believes in Christ, his sacrifice, that he is the son of God, and lovingly(and faithfully) follows his word - then they will go to heaven. So asserting onself as going to heaven because of Christ is in no way arrogant nor is it prideful, since one is demonstrating faith in him(not themselves) - which he gracefully asks all of his servants to do.

Naz
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
No one can be for certain in themselves(or in their own abilities) But they can be for certain about Christ - and the truth of his word. If one truly believes in Christ, his sacrifice, that he is the son of God, and lovingly(and faithfully) follows his word - then they will go to heaven. So asserting onself as going to heaven because of Christ is in no way arrogant nor is it prideful, since one is demonstrating faith in him(not themselves) - which he gracefully asks all of his servants to do.

One can't have total belief in God, it's pretty much impossible. There is always that fragment of doubt no matter how devout you are. It's like one bible thing about having as much faith as a mustard seed, you'd be able to command a tree to cast itself into the sea.
It is not prideful to say that you believe in God and Jesus, etc. etc.
But I think it is prideful to say that you are so holy that you are certain you'll be going to Heaven.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by silk4life
With all do respect, Shakyamunison, I do not follow religion nor believe in it. My path is my faith.

Oh the humanity.

I find something rather... propagaderish in those situations where people claim "Oh, I'm not a Christian. I don't follow a religion. No, I'm a follower of Jesus."

So much quibbling in order to claim to be somehow exceptional and separate from the profusion of other religions. When in reality, by definition, a Christian, and member of religion, is exactly what you are, sock or no or whatever.

Seriously, I have seen a lot of it in recent times. It is like the new black of religious arguments.

debbiejo
black of religious arguments.


blink

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by debbiejo
black of religious arguments.


blink

You know the fashion saying "purple polka-dots are the new black" or something like that.

Kind of the in thing. And that is what it is - certain Christians (and I say Christians because I have never seen a Buddhist or Hindu say it) have this whole "Religion isn't what we follow, it's God. So we aren't religious, we are true followers of Jesus." Kind of thing - despite by definition still being a part of a religion, usually following some definable doctrine etc.

Nellinator
Originally posted by silk4life
**Disclaimer**Please, this question is for Christians only. In the past, I have often gotten in debates on sites such as Myspace with other enlighten individuals and some responses I found great value in and of course, there were those who probably should have just ignored the topic at hand. If you want to curse, please, show some honor and self-control as I am not attacking anyone here, but, I just want an honest question. Love this world, love the imperfections of men, science, lust, money, family, friends, all good and bad, whatever they may be. But, I do not personally have any desire to argue why you shouldn't and I think we all can agree in everyone having the free will to choose the path that is right for them! 1 LUV!

I notice a poll by JesusisAlive and it compelled me to ask Christians a question. I do not refer myself as a Christian or any label but a bond servant of Christ. So for anyone wondering, yes, I do follow the teaching of Christ as it has become my own personal testimony. But, for those who claim that they believe they are going to heaven, I am wondering why do you believe that you are saved? Have you are received the Holy Spirit or are you just answering "Yes" as it has become quite a cliche answer for believers to say. I ask because the road is narrow and there are many among us to walk the broad path. There are those who partake in things of this world with desire in their hearts when if you truly believe you are an elect of God, you would have no love for anything of this world knowing everything of value will eventually fade. So not to wonder from the purpose of my topic, again, for those who are Believers, why do you believe you are saved? Keep in mind, the word of God is eternal, it does not sway to the left or to the right nor does it adapt to the changes of society as what is considered to be sin is quite common and goes unrepented. So please, think hard before answering this question. Thanks! 1 LUV!
"..but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46
John 3:16 for one of course.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life" John 3:36
"He that heareth My word and believeth on Hin That sent Me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24
"He that believeth on Me hath (possesseth) everlasting life." John 6:47
"...so that he that eateth Me, even he shall live through Me" John 6:57
"Verily, verily I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death." John 8:51

That's just the start.

Alliance
That wasn't very original.

debbiejo
Oh ok.......
laughing out loud blink

Could you retell that story.......you know how I just love your stories..........I do..honest I do..........I'm not fibbing..........I want to hear it...........It's the curiosity thing again.......*must kill thing, thinks about therapy*

JaehSkywalker
that one's a sock? oh well...

answer: I know i'm going to heaven. I believe in Christ, accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour, and have a personal relationship with him. Its by faith, not religion. its a relationship with the Lord, not a religion. big difference.

Sure, I'm a sinner. I know that. but i repent my sins to God, and He forgives them. *ends answer*

that good enough?

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
That wasn't very original.
I know. Your point?

sithsaber408
Originally posted by JaehSkywalker


answer: I know i'm going to heaven. I believe in Christ, accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour, and have a personal relationship with him. Its by faith, not religion. its a relationship with the Lord, not a religion. big difference.

Sure, I'm a sinner. I know that. but i repent my sins to God, and He forgives them. *ends answer*

that good enough?

Yup, that was perfect Jaeh. smile


Amazing, only 15 and yet she gets what so many "religious" people don't.





And for Imperial Samauri, you don't have to like it, but there are plenty of Chistians out there (meaning simply believers in Christ) who are making a concious effort not to get caught up in dogma, or rules and traditions, i.e. "RELIGION", but rather to let the Lord lead them in their lives.

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

I don't have a "religion", meaning I don't follow pracitices and routines "just because"....

I have a relationship with my God.

He speaks to me, he answers my prayers, he blesses me, and heals friends and family members. (of many things, not just disease)

I follow what the Lord wants for me, not what some religion dictates.



If that line of thinking bothers you, it's probably because of the focus on interaction with a real God that you believe isn't real.

Capt_Fantastic
Oh please. You have a dillusion. I'm not going to say there isn't a god, but you don't have a "personal relationship" with him. The fact that you call it a Him is proof of that.

Can you explain this personal relationship? Give us some specifics, maybe? What colour are his eyes? Does he prefer Coke or Pepsi? What's his favorite movie? What kinds of things does he tell you to do? What's his voice sound like? Who's going to win teh super bowl? Has he explained why he doesn't talk to everyone else the way he talks to you? Is there a reason why he talks to you, but refuses to provide the rest of the world with the coutresy of the occasional whisper?

Bardock42
Originally posted by sithsaber408

I have a relationship with my God.


Do the italics imply an Urizen kind of relationship?

Atlantis001

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh please. You have a dillusion. I'm not going to say there isn't a god, but you don't have a "personal relationship" with him. The fact that you call it a Him is proof of that.

Can you explain this personal relationship? Give us some specifics, maybe? What colour are his eyes? Does he prefer Coke or Pepsi? What's his favorite movie? What kinds of things does he tell you to do? What's his voice sound like? Who's going to win teh super bowl? Has he explained why he doesn't talk to everyone else the way he talks to you? Is there a reason why he talks to you, but refuses to provide the rest of the world with the coutresy of the occasional whisper?

I can't wait for an answer to this post. laughing

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Naz
One can't have total belief in God, it's pretty much impossible. There is always that fragment of doubt no matter how devout you are. It's like one bible thing about having as much faith as a mustard seed, you'd be able to command a tree to cast itself into the sea.
It is not prideful to say that you believe in God and Jesus, etc. etc.
But I think it is prideful to say that you are so holy that you are certain you'll be going to Heaven.


One can have a total belief in God. It's not impossible. All of his creations are inherently instilled with the knowledge of his existence. Some just choose to have more faith in this knowledge than others.
(Particularly all of the demons(or the fallen angels). They are completely aware of his existence, but being as prideful and as jealous of mankind as they are - they choose to willfully manipulate man, in an attempt to deny him of a true loving relationship with his creator).

Personally - I have little problems doubting God's existence myself. As it is very difficult to deceive me in this area - since God has been present in so much of my everyday life. But the most difficult part for me - is having faith in his *love*.

On another note - you are correct about people who insinuate that their works can get them into heaven, but it is okay for individuals to say - they have faith that Christ's love, will get them into heaven. In fact - Christ wants all of his servants(and or bretheren or friends) - to express his loving nature to the masses, so they can all share eternal friendship with him, and be heirs within his kingdom.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
One can have a total belief in God. It's not impossible. All of his creations are inherently instilled with the knowledge of his existence. Some just choose to have more faith in this knowledge than others.
(Particularly all of the demons(or the fallen angels). They are completely aware of his existence, but being as prideful and as jealous of mankind as they are - they choose to willfully manipulate man, in an attempt to deny him of a true loving relationship with his creator).

Personally - I have little problems doubting God's existence myself. As it is very difficult to deceive me in this area - since God has been present in so much of my everyday life. But the most difficult part for me - is having faith in his *love*.

On another note - you are correct about people who insinuate that their works can get them into heaven, but it is okay for individuals to say - they have faith that Christ's love, will get them into heaven. In fact - Christ wants all of his servants(and or bretheren or friends) - to express his loving nature to the masses, so they can all share eternal friendship with him, and be heirs within his kingdom.

There is no such thing as a demon or angel. Now your way of thinking falls apart.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no such thing as a demon or angel. Now your way of thinking falls apart.
There is such a thing as a demon and an angel. Now your way of thinking falls apart.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh please. You have a dillusion. I'm not going to say there isn't a god, but you don't have a "personal relationship" with him. The fact that you call it a Him is proof of that.

Can you explain this personal relationship? Give us some specifics, maybe? What colour are his eyes? Does he prefer Coke or Pepsi? What's his favorite movie? What kinds of things does he tell you to do? What's his voice sound like? Who's going to win teh super bowl? Has he explained why he doesn't talk to everyone else the way he talks to you? Is there a reason why he talks to you, but refuses to provide the rest of the world with the coutresy of the occasional whisper?
Capt, are you really that spiritually blind, or are you just trying to provoke sithsaber?

(Methinks this ascertains what Paul said on that issue.)

Bardock42
Originally posted by Naz
One can't have total belief in God, it's pretty much impossible.

Nah, it's possible, you just have to be dumb.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
There is such a thing as a demon and an angel. Now your way of thinking falls apart...

Can you show me one please? Do you believe in fire breathing dragons and Santa Clause, also?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Umm..Urizen - at least if you're going to create multiple socks to profess this non - religious agenda, stick to one for a little..and pick a better name next time too..He..He..


Give me a ffkn break Usagi....what a desparate attack, how pathetic.

If that we truly me, I'd be more upfront. I wouldn't be so nice and pu$$y foot about makign a point like that.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by FeceMan
There is such a thing as a demon and an angel. Now your way of thinking falls apart.

Capt, are you really that spiritually blind, or are you just trying to provoke sithsaber?

(Methinks this ascertains what Paul said on that issue.)

Yup and yup.

Thanks Fece, that was good.Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you show me one please?(demon) Do you believe in fire breathing dragons and Santa Clause, also?

No but I've seen people possesed by them before. Just as you can't see the wind but can see it's effects.

I've seen people who are strong in faith and filled with the Holy Spirit use it's supernatural power to cast those demons out in the name of Jesus, and the person who couldn't be sedated or drugged stops and is peaceful.

A seperate but comparitve question shaky, do you believe only in this natural world, or that there are supernatural things outside ourselves?Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh please. You have a dillusion. I'm not going to say there isn't a god, but you don't have a "personal relationship" with him. The fact that you call it a Him is proof of that.

Can you explain this personal relationship? Give us some specifics, maybe? What colour are his eyes? Does he prefer Coke or Pepsi? What's his favorite movie? What kinds of things does he tell you to do? What's his voice sound like? Who's going to win teh super bowl? Has he explained why he doesn't talk to everyone else the way he talks to you? Is there a reason why he talks to you, but refuses to provide the rest of the world with the coutresy of the occasional whisper?

Cap, he tells me that he loves me. He says yes or no to me when I ask for things, and usually I see why later on.

It's not an audible voice from a speaker or even a voice in my head, but a feeling. A feeling with thoughts and ideas behind it, like the feeling you get after helping a person out.

The feeling is good, but you know in your mind that what you did was the right thing, and that you should be proud.

You don't hear a voice inside yourself say "that was a good thing you did Bryan (using my name here), you should be proud of yourself" but you have a feeling that confirms those thoughts.


I can't think of any better way to explain it to you, and I'm sure that doesn't work for you.

Suffice to say that I was at one point in my life very liberal, and definitely a skeptic of anything until I've had it proved in my face.

(that much I'm sure you can gather from my time here at KMC) stick out tongue

I'm reasonably intelligent, definately not insane, and I promise you:

I have a relationship with GOD.

I won't answer your jerk questions about his favorite movie or soda because it doesn't work like that, but I'll answer that last one:

The people of the world would hear from him if they asked him touch their lives.

(in a real and honest way, seeking to know him, rather than a "prove yourself, you old f*cker" type of way.)

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
that one's a sock? oh well...

answer: I know i'm going to heaven. I believe in Christ, accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour, and have a personal relationship with him. Its by faith, not religion. its a relationship with the Lord, not a religion. big difference.

Sure, I'm a sinner. I know that. but i repent my sins to God, and He forgives them. *ends answer*

that good enough?


All you are of is that your Faith qualifies you to this mythological idea of Heaven. Good thumb up

However, you do not know for certain of Heaven's actual existance. Nobody does.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Cap, he tells me that he loves me. He says yes or no to me when I ask for things, and usually I see why later on.

It's not an audible voice from a speaker or even a voice in my head, but a feeling. A feeling with thoughts and ideas behind it, like the feeling you get after helping a person out.

The feeling is good, but you know in your mind that what you did was the right thing, and that you should be proud.


So what ?


I have feelings about OTHER things that cannot be proven. How are your feelings any more valid than my own ? How do you know your feelings are senses of truth, and not just pyschosomatic ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, it's possible, you just have to be dumb.
Oh, mercy! I am deeply wounded by such an attack on my intellect!
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you show me one please? Do you believe in fire breathing dragons and Santa Clause, also?
Spiritual beings are the hardest to see. Not that it matters, as arguing this point is as ridiculous as arguing the existence of love.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
...No but I've seen people possesed by them before. Just as you can't see the wind but can see it's effects.

I've seen people who are strong in faith and filled with the Holy Spirit use it's supernatural power to cast those demons out in the name of Jesus, and the person who couldn't be sedated or drugged stops and is peaceful.

A separate but comparitve question shaky, do you believe only in this natural world, or that there are supernatural things outside ourselves?


You are seeing hysteria or mental illness not demon possession.

I do not believe in supernatural, for God is not separate from nature or us.


Originally posted by FeceMan
...Spiritual beings are the hardest to see. Not that it matters, as arguing this point is as ridiculous as arguing the existence of love.

See above...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Bardock42
Do the italics imply an Urizen kind of relationship?


No...only a droolio smilie can imply the kind of relationships I embark.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are seeing hysteria or mental illness not demon possession.

I do not believe in supernatural, for God is not separate from nature or us.




See above...

all the time? every time? forever?

Throughout history as people have been possesed by demons, and set free by people of strong faith with the Holy Spirit's power working through them, you really believe that every single case can be attributed to mental illness or hysteria?

Not likely.

Also, if that were true, then how is it that the person who commands the demon away in the name of Christ somehow, at that very moment just HAPPENS to speak it as the hysteria or mental illness (two psycholigical conditions that their fairy tale god should have no effect on) just HAPPENS to leave the person?




Your argument grows thin.


A personal example:

My mother-in-law is a strong woman of faith, and one of 16 brothers and sisters. Some are saved, others aren't.

By and large, the ones who aren't are drug users or alcoholics, cheat on spouses or are abused by them, and live very unhappy lives.

This last winter, Lori, my mother-in-law, had the sisters (9 in all) and their kids all over to her daughter Mellissa's house. (my sister in-law)

The first night was spent visiting, and talking, and with my in-laws giving testimony to the power of the Lord changing things in your life that you aren't happy with, but that you find hard to break and have a hold on you.


Many of the ladies were touched by the honest and real lives that these women of God were living, happy lives with families that gave them joy, and several who had brought drugs with them threw them out, and planned for the next day to have the explanation of this "Jesus life" and how to live it.




That night, as they slept, one of the aunts who wasn't a drug user but just a skeptic, one who had been on the fence and was starting to melt, was possesed by a demon.

She woke up screaming, feeling a dark heavy prescence upon her body, like blanket of lead and she couldn't move.

She tried to cry out the name of Jesus, and she said that she literally felt a hand reach to her throat and choke her, and her vocal cords didn't work.

Her scream had woken the others, who rushed down stairs, praying in tounges (in the spirit) and they gathered together using the power of the Holy Spirit. They commanded the demon to leave in the name of Jesus Christ, and it did.

Needless to say that aunt wasn't "on the fence" anymore! eek!


Now this isn't some Steven King novel, this really happened.

I wasn't there no, but the people who told it to me are many, too many to be a lie, and they are college-educated professional women (some) and truth-ful wise people (my in-laws)


The family has no history of mental illness, and there was no "hysteria" i.e. flapping around and screaming, but rather a woman who was turning her heart towards God and was quite literaly "silenced" by demons.

She was calm, still, and aware as this happpened, and very much awake.


She is one of many.

Think about it.

Lord Urizen
One of Millions Sith ?



Could you supply us with credible documents ?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
all the time? every time? forever?

Throughout history as people have been possesed by demons, and set free by people of strong faith with the Holy Spirit's power working through them, you really believe that every single case can be attributed to mental illness or hysteria?

Not likely...



Sorry if the truth hurts.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
One of Millions Sith ?



Could you supply us with credible documents ?

edited.

And if that's all you took from that, then you should just move along.
You are clearly splitting hairs and avoiding the subject of the post:

Supernatural power of demons/the devil and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/angels.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sorry if the truth hurts.

Good, then explain what happend to Aunt Lucy.

Go ahead.

While you're at it, you can answer my question following what you repsonded to.

If it's all mental illness and hysteria, how is it that people of faith, filled with the Holy Spirit just happen to command such a thing to stop happening, and a mental illness or hysteria that would not pay attention to imaginary powers.....

stops.


They could no more stop a siezure than they could a mental outburst or hysterics, yet the "symptoms" are gone.

Explain.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Good, then explain what happend to Aunt Lucy.

Go ahead.

I don't know who Aunt Lucy is. Also, I'm not a doctor. big grin

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't know who Aunt Lucy is. Also, I'm not a doctor. big grin

The one in the post before my last 2.

Don't waffle now, explain to me how she was either hysterical or has a mental illness.

Also answer the question in the post above.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
The one in the post before my last 2.

Don't waffle now, explain to me how she was either hysterical or has a mental illness.

Also answer the question in the post above.

I know what you are talking about, but I don't know the person.

I cannot make a determination based upon what you have written. The reason is simple; you believe in demons and therefore are delusional.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
Oh, mercy! I am deeply wounded by such an attack on my intellect!


Not an insult on you. I am sure you don't believe 100%. You are smart.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I know what you are talking about, but I don't know the person.

I cannot make a determination based upon what you have written. The reason is simple; you believe in demons and therefore are delusional.

Right, and I gave you the situation and the circumstances leading up to it.

What happend to her?

You have no answer, she has no mental illness, nor has any of her family ever had, and she wasn't hysterical.

Again, if the people possesed by demons were merely folks suffering from hysteria or mental illness, then how is it that when people of faith filled with the Holy Spirit tell the demon to leave in the name of Jesus, that all the "symptoms" just HAPPEN to stop.

I'm still waiting on your answer, as hysteria or a mental illness should act independantly of what some fool with an imagined supernatural power says or does.


Right?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Right, and I gave you the situation and the circumstances leading up to it.

What happend to her?

You have no answer, she has no mental illness, nor has any of her family ever had, and she wasn't hysterical.

Again, if the people possesed by demons were merely folks suffering from hysteria or mental illness, then how is it that when people of faith filled with the Holy Spirit tell the demon to leave in the name of Jesus, that all the "symptoms" just HAPPEN to stop.

I'm still waiting on your answer, as hysteria or a mental illness should act independantly of what some fool with an imagined supernatural power says or does.


Right?




Can you provide evidense ?



I hear about Ghost stories all the time. I also hear claims about alien abductions, and about Big Foot.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Right, and I gave you the situation and the circumstances leading up to it.

What happend to her?

You have no answer, she has no mental illness, nor has any of her family ever had, and she wasn't hysterical.

Again, if the people possesed by demons were merely folks suffering from hysteria or mental illness, then how is it that when people of faith filled with the Holy Spirit tell the demon to leave in the name of Jesus, that all the "symptoms" just HAPPEN to stop.

I'm still waiting on your answer, as hysteria or a mental illness should act independantly of what some fool with an imagined supernatural power says or does.


Right?

I don't know her and I was not there. A person who is delusional cannot give me the information I need to find an answer.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't know her and I was not there. A person who is delusional cannot give me the information I need to find an answer.

I'm not delusional, and in any case I could give you whatever information you needed about her and her family.

You have no answer.

Actually you do, it just doesn't match with what you believe.Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can you provide evidense ?



I hear about Ghost stories all the time. I also hear claims about alien abductions, and about Big Foot. No Uzien, I can't.

You got me.

It's all a part of of my mother-in-law, sister-in-law, their whole family, and mine's plan to lie to you over the internet.


erm


I said at the beginning I didn't see it, and even if I did, I had no camera or recorder.

The people who told it to me are college-educated professional women, with no history of mental illness, some of whom I know to be truthful and wise.


Not that it matters on the internet, but you are basically calling me, my wife's mother and sister, and my wife who was there liars.

I've no need to lie to you Urzien, you in your heart are seeking after God.
It's why you start so many threads abou Him and his nature of doing things, isn't it?


Maybe it's all a lie, but maybe it isn't.

Can you aford to just dismiss it?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm not delusional, and in any case I could give you whatever information you needed about her and her family.

You have no answer.

Actually you do, it just doesn't match with what you believe. No Uzien, I can't.

You got me.

It's all a part of of my mother-in-law, sister-in-law, their whole family, and mine's plan to lie to you over the internet.


erm


I said at the beginning I didn't see it, and even if I did, I had no camera or recorder.

The people who told it to me are college-educated professional women, with no history of mental illness, some of whom I know to be truthful and wise.


Not that it matters on the internet, but you are basically calling me, my wife's mother and sister, and my wife who was their liars.

I've no need to lie to you Urzien, you in your heart are seeking after God.
It's why you start so many threads abou Him and his nature of doing things, isn't it?


Maybe it's all a lie, but maybe it isn't.

Can you aford to just dismiss it?

It is not possible for me to get an answer. I am not insulting you, if you feel that I am; I am sorry. You believe so strongly, that you will not see the information I need to give an answer.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm not delusional, and in any case I could give you whatever information you needed about her and her family.

You have no answer.

Actually you do, it just doesn't match with what you believe. No Uzien, I can't.

You got me.

It's all a part of of my mother-in-law, sister-in-law, their whole family, and mine's plan to lie to you over the internet.


erm


I said at the beginning I didn't see it, and even if I did, I had no camera or recorder.

The people who told it to me are college-educated professional women, with no history of mental illness, some of whom I know to be truthful and wise.


Not that it matters on the internet, but you are basically calling me, my wife's mother and sister, and my wife who was there liars.

I've no need to lie to you Urzien, you in your heart are seeking after God.
It's why you start so many threads abou Him and his nature of doing things, isn't it?


Maybe it's all a lie, but maybe it isn't.

Can you aford to just dismiss it?



Dude, I like to argue religion. That's # 1. It's entertaining.


Secondly, I do beleive in God. Or in "creation force", but not in your God.


Christian-Judeo-Islam God is a hoax. That God is a sexist, hypocrit, tyrant....I refuse to worship that joke.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Cap, he tells me that he loves me. He says yes or no to me when I ask for things, and usually I see why later on.

It's not an audible voice from a speaker or even a voice in my head, but a feeling. A feeling with thoughts and ideas behind it, like the feeling you get after helping a person out.

The feeling is good, but you know in your mind that what you did was the right thing, and that you should be proud.

You don't hear a voice inside yourself say "that was a good thing you did Bryan (using my name here), you should be proud of yourself" but you have a feeling that confirms those thoughts.


I can't think of any better way to explain it to you, and I'm sure that doesn't work for you.

Suffice to say that I was at one point in my life very liberal, and definitely a skeptic of anything until I've had it proved in my face.

(that much I'm sure you can gather from my time here at KMC) stick out tongue

I'm reasonably intelligent, definately not insane, and I promise you:

I have a relationship with GOD.

I won't answer your jerk questions about his favorite movie or soda because it doesn't work like that, but I'll answer that last one:

The people of the world would hear from him if they asked him touch their lives.

(in a real and honest way, seeking to know him, rather than a "prove yourself, you old f*cker" type of way.)


I'm not going to argue your feelings.

However, I really think you need to get over this ida that liberals are equitable to evil sinners. It's really shallow.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is not possible for me to get an answer. I am not insulting you, if you feel that I am; I am sorry. You believe so strongly, that you will not see the information I need to give an answer.

Try me, and see.

I'm willing to be proved wrong, if you feel that you can.

And I will give you whatever info. you want about the situation that happend, the circumstances, or the individual or the family.

Honestly, try me. smile

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm not going to argue your feelings.

However, I really think you need to get over this ida that liberals are equitable to evil sinners. It's really shallow.

I don't think that, as I said, I was once very liberal.

But thanks for hearing my side of it. smile

Alliance
There comes a point where some people are beyond information.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Try me, and see.

I'm willing to be proved wrong, if you feel that you can.

And I will give you whatever info. you want about the situation that happend, the circumstances, or the individual or the family.

Honestly, try me. smile

You don't get it! You can't see the truth because of your beliefs. We all suffer from that to one degree of another. I don't believe that I can know what the answer is here on this forum.

Alliance
However, some of use use more than one case to found our beliefs on.

FeceMan
When he says that some people are beyond information, I do believe that he could very well be referring to himself as well as others.

Sometimes I feel it is not that they are blind but they have blinded themselves.

EDIT: I do enjoy this blatant hypocrisy shown by the members of KMC--"You cannot say that another's beliefs are wrong!

...Except you're a dumb Christian, so w/e."

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
When he says that some people are beyond information, I do believe that he could very well be referring to himself as well as others.

Sometimes I feel it is not that they are blind but they have blinded themselves.

I am open minded happy

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
When he says that some people are beyond information, I do believe that he could very well be referring to himself as well as others.

Sometimes I feel it is not that they are blind but they have blinded themselves.


thumb up

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
When he says that some people are beyond information, I do believe that he could very well be referring to himself as well as others.

Sometimes I feel it is not that they are blind but they have blinded themselves.

Strange that is how I feel sometimes about you. stick out tongue

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
thumb up
Urizen, you know not what you have just supported.

Alliance
It was a statement. We all have beliefs, but some people beliefs are supporte by a much larger view than others.

I feel I have a wider interpretation than say for instance Fece, because I'm more accpeting of other people's beliefs than he is. Hence, I feel my head is less stuck in the sand.

I don't follow an ideology, I'm not brainwashed. However, I can point out some people who are breastfed idoelogies and continue to make ignorant comments based on their uneducated views of modern concepts.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
I am open minded happy Yeah right Mr. I don't know if I even exist... blink

Do you believe in the unbelievable?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Urizen, you know not what you have just supported.


No ?

Alliance
Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah right Mr. I don't know if I even exist... blink

Do you believe in the unbelievable?

If it is unbelievable, by definintion he cannot believe in it.

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah right Mr. I don't know if I even exist... blink

Do you believe in the unbelievable?

That is a contradiction. Obviously I can not believe in the unbelievable.

Also i said I am open minded not an idiot. Big difference.

finti
not always

Bardock42
Originally posted by finti
not always

Well, it is always a differece. Someone open minded can also be an idiot though.

debbiejo
I mean could you believe in what others might say are unbelievable. And once you saw that something that everyone says is unbelievable and you saw that to you..that you experienced it, then would you blow it off, or now believe in the unbelievable.

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
I mean could you believe in what others might say are unbelievable. And once you saw that something that everyone says is unbelievable and you saw that to you..that you experienced it, then would you blow it off, or now believe in the unbelievable.

I could, if there is a reason for my believe.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No ?
Nope. Otherwise, you wouldn't have supported it.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
Nope. Otherwise, you wouldn't have supported it.

It's sad. I know.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
I could, if there is a reason for my believe. Well then, this is what some others say they do believe in things, and not a blind belief system.....

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well then, this is what some others say they do believe in things, and not a blind belief system.....

...I don't follow.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
...I don't follow. Hard to explain. But if someone really believes something then it could manifest to them. Though would explain why many people see the virgin mary and such. And in other beliefs people can see Buddha or fairies....If someone believes something strongly enough it could seem to manifest.

Understand sorta?

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Hard to explain. But if someone really believes something then it could manifest to them. Though would explain why many people see the virgin mary and such. And in other beliefs people can see Buddha or fairies....If someone believes something strongly enough it could seem to manifest.

Understand sorta?

Yes, though I wouldn't know of any evidence supporting that view.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, though I wouldn't know of any evidence supporting that view. Of course not cause it would be only a personal manifestation of your out put of energy of your view.....Then would come your experience of it.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Bardock42
It's sad. I know.
Get to the back of the bus.

This is the second time in a short while that Urizen has grossly misinterpreted my posts...I think I should take solace in that, for whatever reason.

m. sade
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it is always a differece. Someone open minded can also be an idiot though.

I believe such a person would be considered suggestible yes or simply naive. Open mind...? They hardly have a mind of their own.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
All of his creations are inherently instilled with the knowledge of his existence.Originally posted by FeceMan
There is such a thing as a demon and an angel. Now your way of thinking falls apart.I call bullshit. Penn and Teller do too.

FeceMan
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I call bullshit. Penn and Teller do too.
Okay.

I call bullshit on secular humanism as a whole.

Do I win a prize?

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by FeceMan
Okay.

I call bullshit on secular humanism as a whole.

Do I win a prize? What exactly is there to call bullshit on.

You claim angels and demons are real.

And fail to substantiate this claim.

Therefore it is accurately described as bullshit, as much so as saying that there are fairies, pixies, elves and orcs; we just can't see them zipping around stealing gold.

If one makes a claim, then the onus is on them to provide objective proof positive, not worthless anecdotes about Aunt Lucy.

FeceMan
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
What exactly is there to call bullshit on.
The entire damn thing.

Even if you were to see a clearly demon possessed person, it wouldn't matter in the least.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
What exactly is there to call bullshit on.

You claim angels and demons are real.

And fail to substantiate this claim.

Therefore it is accurately described as bullshit, as much so as saying that there are fairies, pixies, elves and orcs; we just can't see them zipping around stealing gold.

If one makes a claim, then the onus is on them to provide objective proof positive, not worthless anecdotes about Aunt Lucy.

And here lies the problem, until you were to see such a thing in front of you, or hear from a source that you know personally and absolutely trust in being honest and right, then you will never believe in it.


I do find it funny though that if we talk about healings, or posessions, or seeing angels, etc... and we argue semantics, and I get the phrase: "Well that's all well and good, too bad it never really happens to people." and in each case I can relate a personal story of whatever it is, be it my sister-in law giving up a child for adoption rather than an abortion, or the young Christian friends of mine who were virgins until marriage and weren't dorks, wierd, or insane (I even posted a pic of them).....

THEN all of a sudden my own personal experiences aren't worthy of mention, when before it was my ideas that weren't suitable, since nobody ever has it happen to them that way in real life.

Believe what you will, but I'm no damn fool.

I'm a practical person who's been through some hard shit in my young life-time, and I don't buy into a sucker's dream.

This God stuff, this Jesus guy, that Holy Spirit living inside you giving you supernatural power.....


it's for real. yes



I won't bother you folks anymore, and anybody who has questions is welcome to PM me, and I'll talk to you about whatever you want.

But this line of arguing gets me nowhere, since "statistics and reason" tell you one thing, and what I've seen and felt tells me another.


Blessings. cool

FeceMan
This will not end well.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by FeceMan
The entire damn thing.So you're calling out the worldview that one doesn't need the supernatural to formulate morals and reason as bullshit. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Originally posted by FeceMan
Even if you were to see a clearly demon possessed person, it wouldn't matter in the least. Ad hominem. Blah blah close-minded blah blah. Provide proof positive, or don't make the claim.

ska57
Originally posted by silk4life
But, for those who claim that they believe they are going to heaven, I am wondering why do you believe that you are saved?

God's Word brother!

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. -Romans 10:9

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Sometimes I feel it is not that they are blind but they have blinded themselves.




thumb up



It was this quote I support very much. I know you did not mean the way I would like you to have meant it, but OBJECTIVELY this is a very true statement, which I beleive applies to ALL who beleive they know absolute truth.

JaehSkywalker
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Yup, that was perfect Jaeh. smile


Amazing, only 15 and yet she gets what so many "religious" people don't.


I'm fourteen. God helped me out with that one.. ^_^


Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh please. You have a dillusion. I'm not going to say there isn't a god, but you don't have a "personal relationship" with him. The fact that you call it a Him is proof of that.

Can you explain this personal relationship? Give us some specifics, maybe? What colour are his eyes? Does he prefer Coke or Pepsi? What's his favorite movie? What kinds of things does he tell you to do? What's his voice sound like? Who's going to win teh super bowl? Has he explained why he doesn't talk to everyone else the way he talks to you? Is there a reason why he talks to you, but refuses to provide the rest of the world with the coutresy of the occasional whisper?

just saw it right now...

Personal Relationship.
I can't explain it thoroughly, because its unexplainable.

I can't see God, yes, but i feel Him.
Talking to Him.. well... its not exactly a feeling... but an Experience.
You would feel it when you actually ask Him -by seeking to know God, not in a 'prove yourself you d*mn thing if you're real!' type.

you just know it.
i can't explain exactly how....


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
All you are of is that your Faith qualifies you to this mythological idea of Heaven. Good thumb up

However, you do not know for certain of Heaven's actual existance. Nobody does.

wasn't the question about how are you certain that you're going to heaven?

I sure am convinced- rather i KNOW for SURE that Heaven exists.

How you might ask?

Faith. smile

may be stupid... or ignorant... you can say..

but.. that's what i believe in so... *shrugs*

debbiejo
...........Don't speak to me in the first name bases.........who do you think you are? eek! laughing

Sorry....must be the creative process in me.............lol

Bardock42
I was wondering, for all believers who are so sure that they are right. Did you consider (since you believe in the devil and stuff) that he might just make you feel that way...and believe that some of the words are Gods words? Also did you consider that, since we all are limited being (if you believe in God or not) that your feelings and "relationship" with God might jsut be a mental disorder? I mean, can you really? Really be 100% sure, it is God you feel?

lil bitchiness
And what if you're worshiping the wrong God?

What if the Hindu's are right? What if Ancient Egyptins were rght? Or Ancient greeks or romans?

What if Persian's god of Sun was the right God?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
I was wondering, for all believers who are so sure that they are right. Did you consider (since you believe in the devil and stuff) that he might just make you feel that way...and believe that some of the words are Gods words? Also did you consider that, since we all are limited being (if you believe in God or not) that your feelings and "relationship" with God might jsut be a mental disorder? I mean, can you really? Really be 100% sure, it is God you feel? Mental disorder just jumped out at me.........Are you referring to anyone in particular?? roll eyes (sarcastic)

It could be like a disorder kinda cause IF there is only ONE ENERGY, ONE THING and people are dividing it in to TWO, or more, and telling others that one or the other is talking to them, or doing things to them. It would be a delusional thinking. Even paranoid delusional thinking. Especially if one thinks the one, bad one, is sending little armies after them....It is quite paranoid delusional thinking. And in many psychology books, it's the one that thinks they don't have a problem that often times does. Maybe even too the point that one thinks that they have been possessed by one of the little solders sent, then it would become schizophrenia....Wow, a paranoid delusional schizophrenic.........Visit one in a church near you!! laughing out loud

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And what if you're worshiping the wrong God?

What if the Hindu's are right? What if Ancient Egyptins were rght? Or Ancient greeks or romans?

What if Persian's god of Sun was the right God?

Yes, so much doubt, so little knowledge.

pr1983
Originally posted by silk4life
But, for those who claim that they believe they are going to heaven, I am wondering why do you believe that you are saved?

because, deep down, i try to be a good person and to always do the right thing... i'm not so much sure i'm going to heaven or hell, i just believe that people who are good treat others the way they wish to be treated will have some sort of enjoyable afterlife, be it in some semblence of heaven or in reincarnation...

and besides, manners cost nothing... stick out tongue

just my two cents n such...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
wasn't the question about how are you certain that you're going to heaven?

I sure am convinced- rather i KNOW for SURE that Heaven exists.

How you might ask?

Faith. smile

may be stupid... or ignorant... you can say..

but.. that's what i believe in so... *shrugs*





But Sweety...beleif and knowledge are not the same thing no


If you know for SURE, absolutely 100% that you are correct, and that you factually have a relationship with this diety, then it's NOT FAITH...its KNOWLEDGE.


Faith is when you strongly beleive and hope in something that cannot be proven. If it's already proven to you, then it's no longer Faith.


I don't mean to sound rude, but I was once 1000% convinced that God existed and that I was close with him. I was 14-15 when I beleived that. Now, I realize that was just psychosomatic wishful thinking. The power of the MIND is awesome.

Not to mention, that as convinced as you are that you are close to God, is the SAME CONVICTION that Islamic Terrorists have about their beleifs and thier missions.


Food for Thought....

Alliance
Originally posted by pr1983
because, deep down, i try to be a good person and to always do the right thing... i'm not so much sure i'm going to heaven or hell, i just believe that people who are good treat others the way they wish to be treated will have some sort of enjoyable afterlife, be it in some semblence of heaven or in reincarnation...

and besides, manners cost nothing... stick out tongue

just my two cents n such...

Yes. If god is truely a "good" thing, he would accept everyone who was a good person. If he doesn't, I wouldn't want to be with him anyway.

pr1983
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. If god is truely a "good" thing, he would accept everyone who was a good person. If he doesn't, I wouldn't want to be with him anyway.

neither would i...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. If god is truely a "good" thing, he would accept everyone who was a good person. If he doesn't, I wouldn't want to be with him anyway.


That renders the Bible, Quran, Torah, and religion in general useless. That is why Clergy and Religious Elite do not teach that. To teach that would cause them to lose thier political power.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Bardock42
I was wondering, for all believers who are so sure that they are right. Did you consider (since you believe in the devil and stuff) that he might just make you feel that way...and believe that some of the words are Gods words? Also did you consider that, since we all are limited being (if you believe in God or not) that your feelings and "relationship" with God might jsut be a mental disorder? I mean, can you really? Really be 100% sure, it is God you feel?
There is the old test the Spirits thing.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God..." 1 John 4:2

Bardock42
Originally posted by Nellinator
There is the old test the Spirits thing.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God..." 1 John 4:2

Yeah, what if the devil wrote that? To make it easier for himself?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, what if the devil wrote that? To make it easier for himself?


shifty

Nellinator
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, what if the devil wrote that? To make it easier for himself?
Then I've been slightly fooled. Of course, in general, anything that does not line up with the scriptures is not of God. I'm not really worried though because I go around living by the fruit of the Spirit where that 'feeling' is from God or not.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
Then I've been slightly fooled. Of course, in general, anything that does not line up with the scriptures is not of God. I'm not really worried though because I go around living by the fruit of the Spirit where that 'feeling' is from God or not.




You should be able to live your life without that worry. You're not going to Hell. No one is, for the thousandth time....

Nellinator
What worry? I'm not worried.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
What worry? I'm not worried.



And you have no reason to be. NO ONE does...

Bardock42
Originally posted by Nellinator
Then I've been slightly fooled. Of course, in general, anything that does not line up with the scriptures is not of God. I'm not really worried though because I go around living by the fruit of the Spirit where that 'feeling' is from God or not.

God or the devil. Yes, the feeling might be the devil. The whoe bible might be written by the Bible. I mean, he would have pulled a real awesome stunt. Sound like him. Can you be sure? Follower of Satan?

Nellinator
Some people do need to worry about the way they live their life though, whether they are Christian or not. Some people are not very good.

Alliance
Yes. Thats why in the enlightenment we came up with international standards for how to be a good person.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
Some people do need to worry about the way they live their life though, whether they are Christian or not. Some people are not very good.



But you think punishment by afterlife in Hell should be the motive ? They should worry what effects thier evil deeds have on other people.

Hell doesn't exist. Well, not the Biblical version of it. The Bible is a bunch of stories, containing some wisdom, but nothing factual.

We create Hell on Earth, Hell for each other, and Hell for ourselves. But we do not create a Hell in an afterlife, no one does.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. Thats why in the enlightenment we came up with international standards for how to be a good person.
Not everyone is enlightened. Actually, most people aren't.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But you think punishment by afterlife in Hell should be the motive ? They should worry what effects thier evil deeds have on other people.

Hell doesn't exist. Well, not the Biblical version of it. The Bible is a bunch of stories, containing some wisdom, but nothing factual.

We create Hell on Earth, Hell for each other, and Hell for ourselves. But we do not create a Hell in an afterlife, no one does.
I was addressing the evil deeds affecting others thing.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Nellinator
Not everyone is enlightened. Actually, most people aren't.
True, but one does not need to be religious to be enlightened.

debbiejo
Beelzebub wrote the Bible! That would explain the wars and rumors or wars thingie...

Jesus said turn the other cheek, But the rest of the Bible is all for fourth and condemn, make them feel guilty, bring them into the flock.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Bardock42
True, but one does not need to be religious to be enlightened.
One does in order to be enlightened on the Bible.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
One does in order to be enlightened on the Bible.

What exactly do you mean by "enlightened on the Bible" ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What exactly do you mean by "enlightened on the Bible" ?
Able to understand it.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Able to understand it.


Oh, you mean "Intepret it correctly"

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh, you mean "Intepret it correctly"
I'm sure you're going to pounce on this, but I suppose that is another way to put it, yes.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
I'm sure you're going to pounce on this, but I suppose that is another way to put it, yes.


How do you know who inteprets it correctly ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How do you know who inteprets it correctly ?
The interpretations that hold up to biblical inspection are the interpretations that are correct.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
The interpretations that hold up to biblical inspection are the interpretations that are correct.


How do you know whose intepretations truly hold up to biblical inspection ? You Christians tend to disagree a lot.... confused

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
Able to understand it.

One of the Ancient History lecturers I had at university is an expert in early Christian thought, and by extension the Bible - by expert I mean someone who has a doctoerate and publishes and the rest.

Now, he isn't religion. He is an Atheist, yet he certainly seems to understand it. Better even then some of the theological lecturers who have a faith stake in what they teach. I don't believe one has to be religious in order to understand a holy text.

After all - whether God inspired it or not it was written by men and intended for human consumption. And it is a text. Education is more important to understanding usually then religious faith.

Arguably the thing about history, literature and such - when it deals with a religion the person doing the study simply accepts it - because the texts he/she is using were written by people that believed it etc. Of course that doesn't mean they, the researcher/expert have to believe it to understand it. But they aren't going "hmmm talk of Ra, who doesn't exist, they are wrong" - but rather accepting, in a kind of microcosm, the existance of such things.

And then there are those experts/researchers who work to separate what happened from the religious things people thought happened (the ones who work on showing the divine things in the Bible didn't happen, or in the Koran or whatever.)



It is unfortunate then that in the near 2000 years the Bible has been around there is no cold, hard interpretation that is clearly right on Bible inspection. If there was there wouldn't be so much disagreement.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How do you know whose intepretations truly hold up to biblical inspection ? You Christians tend to disagree a lot.... confused
Well, if the beliefs hold true to the text, then they're okay.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Now, he isn't religion. He is an Atheist, yet he certainly seems to understand it.
He might understand the words, the history, but I do not believe he understands the divine behind it.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Well, if the beliefs hold true to the text, then they're okay

So you vs JIA vs Peejayd vs Regret vs Nellinator vs Marcello


Who inteprets the Bible correctly ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So you vs JIA vs Peejayd vs Regret vs Nellinator vs Marcello


Who inteprets the Bible correctly ?
Me.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Me.


laughing

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
He might understand the words, the history, but I do not believe he understands the divine behind it.

And what is the "divine behind it"? The words, it would seem, are what matter. As far as it goes as a road guide to life. I am yet to see evidence that the words of the Bible are somehow profoundly different if one believes a God inspired them as opposed to them simply being the product of men.

Really the only difference is how much liberty one takes. One understands the divine behind it and suddenly the book can do no wrong, one doesn't think there is any divine behind it and it is simply a book, subject to the same rules as any other.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And what is the "divine behind it"? The words, it would seem, are what matter. As far as it goes as a road guide to life. I am yet to see evidence that the words of the Bible are somehow profoundly different if one believes a God inspired them as opposed to them simply being the product of men.

Really the only difference is how much liberty one takes. One understands the divine behind it and suddenly the book can do no wrong, one doesn't think there is any divine behind it and it is simply a book, subject to the same rules as any other.
I don't believe that he can fully understand the words, to read them and understand as one understands when one is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
I don't believe that he can fully understand the words, to read them and understand as one understands when one is guided by the Holy Spirit.

How come so many Christians can't agree then? No only the differences of opinion between Denominations/Sects, but within each?

Either the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic and isn't nearly a clear guide as people make out, or it is not nearly as as a potent guide as is made out -since I assume you won't say it is leading people wrong that means people aren't listening to it, or aren't hearing it or are being biased by their own ideas.

And you - being a Christian, I assume you would be guide by the Holy Spirit - do you understand the Bible correctly, even though your views undoubtably are different from other Christians who also believe they are guided?

Because once again I say - I have seen no evidence a nonbeliever reading the Bible is incapable of understanding it, or understanding it all.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
How come so many Christians can't agree then? No only the differences of opinion between Denominations/Sects, but within each?
How many of those sects aren't true to the Bible?

It's DID/MPD.

I believe in spiritual warfare, you know. Considered making a thread on it, too.

Do all my views hold up against biblical text?

Yes.

There are some areas, of course, where things are notably murky, such as with the Rapture and "end times." I cannot say whether or not they are correct, as John's writings in Revelation are both metaphorical and an attempt to describe things that cannot be adequately described with words.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
How many of those sects aren't true to the Bible?

How many think they are? Out of the following groups which do you consider correct/Biblically true:

Mormons Y/N
Greek Orthodox Y/N
Roman Catholic Y/N
Church of England Y/N
Jehovah's Witness Y/N
Pentecostal Y/N
Presbyterian Y/N
Anglican Y/N
Methodists Y/N
Baptists Y/N
Brethren Y/N
Charismatic Y/N
Quakers Y/N
Christian Scientists Y/N
Messianic Judaism Y/N
Seventh Day Eventests Y/N

Which of course leaves out the massive variety under such umbrella headings, as well as all the others.



I prefer to think it is convenient.



Spiritual warfare? What, God setting Christian against Christian? Possible I am on the wrong track, but that sounds less like an all loving God and more like George Bluth Sr.



Or do they hold up to your interpretations? One of the things I have seen in religion is it is remarkable how well peoples views, wildly clashing views, all manage to hold up to the Bible or Koran or whatever.

Nellinator
I think all of them have some of the truth, none of them have all. There is no church or denomination on earth that is totally correct. That is why church may be important, but the personal relationship with the Father and Son is far more important and why we must study the Bible ourselves, so that we can identify what is of God and what is not.

m. sade
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think all of them have some of the truth, none of them have all. There is no church or denomination on earth that is totally correct. That is why church may be important, but the personal relationship with the Father and Son is far more important and why we must study the Bible ourselves, so that we can identify what is of God and what is not.


So... there is no Church with a capital "C"? Doesn't it say in the Bible that the Church is the Body of Christ?

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, Colossians 1:24

He is the head of the body, the church; Colossians 1:18

Sounds like you're reducing it down to a mere social institution wink

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think all of them have some of the truth, none of them have all. There is no church or denomination on earth that is totally correct. That is why church may be important, but the personal relationship with the Father and Son is far more important and why we must study the Bible ourselves, so that we can identify what is of God and what is not.

Then that would suggest simply having the Holy Spirit is not the key to understanding the Bible, otherwise there would be a standardised view - rather it seems there are many.

JaehSkywalker
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But Sweety...beleif and knowledge are not the same thing no


If you know for SURE, absolutely 100% that you are correct, and that you factually have a relationship with this diety, then it's NOT FAITH...its KNOWLEDGE.


Faith is when you strongly beleive and hope in something that cannot be proven. If it's already proven to you, then it's no longer Faith.


I don't mean to sound rude, but I was once 1000% convinced that God existed and that I was close with him. I was 14-15 when I beleived that. Now, I realize that was just psychosomatic wishful thinking. The power of the MIND is awesome.

Not to mention, that as convinced as you are that you are close to God, is the SAME CONVICTION that Islamic Terrorists have about their beleifs and thier missions.


Food for Thought....

okay... lets put it this way.
i can't see God, so you can say that i can't be sure that he exist.
but i feel him...
some people don't really regard God (that He exists) as a fact. That's why its called faith.
and i found out this is the dictionary explanation of faith: belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
sure.. i believe its true that God exists, but some people doubt that its true. so, I say its Faith.
besides.. its what the bible says. its called faith. >.< smile

Originally posted by Bardock42
I was wondering, for all believers who are so sure that they are right. Did you consider (since you believe in the devil and stuff) that he might just make you feel that way...and believe that some of the words are Gods words? Also did you consider that, since we all are limited being (if you believe in God or not) that your feelings and "relationship" with God might jsut be a mental disorder? I mean, can you really? Really be 100% sure, it is God you feel?

100% sure.

ever considered that 'why do many people, years before you're even born, die for God, or Christianity?'

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then that would suggest simply having the Holy Spirit is not the key to understanding the Bible, otherwise there would be a standardised view - rather it seems there are many.

Meh - I think that the Holy Spirit is but one key, to understanding the bible(in its entirety...well at least as much as God allows one to understand it(the bible))

Still - one has to educate/train themselves a bit too, just as they do with any other subjects.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
okay... lets put it this way.
i can't see God, so you can say that i can't be sure that he exist.
but i feel him...
some people don't really regard God (that He exists) as a fact. That's why its called faith.
and i found out this is the dictionary explanation of faith: belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
sure.. i believe its true that God exists, but some people doubt that its true. so, I say its Faith.
besides.. its what the bible says. its called faith. >.< smile


I understand completely.


But Faith is not knowledge....and our emotions often decieve us... wink

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I understand completely.


But Faith is not knowledge....and our emotions often decieve us... wink

And what evidence do you have to prove the statement above is a valid one?

Nellinator
Originally posted by m. sade
So... there is no Church with a capital "C"? Doesn't it say in the Bible that the Church is the Body of Christ?

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, Colossians 1:24

He is the head of the body, the church; Colossians 1:18

Sounds like you're reducing it down to a mere social institution wink
That is what it has become. The body of Christ (ie. the Church) is not an institution or location but the Christian believers (there were no physical churches when Jesus was around). A church is not the Church.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then that would suggest simply having the Holy Spirit is not the key to understanding the Bible, otherwise there would be a standardised view - rather it seems there are many.
Actually, I do believe the Holy Spirit is important to understanding the Bible. Of course, one must also be literate.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
How many think they are? Out of the following groups which do you consider correct/Biblically true:

Mormons Y/N
Greek Orthodox Y/N
Roman Catholic Y/N
Church of England Y/N
Jehovah's Witness Y/N
Pentecostal Y/N
Presbyterian Y/N
Anglican Y/N
Methodists Y/N
Baptists Y/N
Brethren Y/N
Charismatic Y/N
Quakers Y/N
Christian Scientists Y/N
Messianic Judaism Y/N
Seventh Day Eventests Y/N

Which of course leaves out the massive variety under such umbrella headings, as well as all the others.
Mormon: absolutely not.
Jehovah's Witnesses: absolutely not.
Christian Scientists: no (yay for breaking with reality).
Seventh Day Adventists: no.

The rest all have relatively minor differences of opinion with regard to Scripture and are often more differentiated by the way in which the church is governed rather than core beliefs.

I was correcting you, not affirming your statement.

*Sighs.*

You have no idea what spiritual warfare is, do you?

Newp, they hold up to the standard of the Bible.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
Mormon: absolutely not.
Jehovah's Witnesses: absolutely not.
Christian Scientists: no (yay for breaking with reality).
Seventh Day Adventists: no.

The rest all have relatively minor differences of opinion with regard to Scripture and are often more differentiated by the way in which the church is governed rather than core beliefs.

I was correcting you, not affirming your statement.

*Sighs.*

You have no idea what spiritual warfare is, do you?

Newp, they hold up to the standard of the Bible.

Thank you for sending millions of good people to hell. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
Mormon: absolutely not.
Jehovah's Witnesses: absolutely not.
Christian Scientists: no (yay for breaking with reality).
Seventh Day Adventists: no.

The rest all have relatively minor differences of opinion with regard to Scripture and are often more differentiated by the way in which the church is governed rather than core beliefs.

Hmmm. I'm surprised Brethren got through. But... interesting.

Likewise that you think the rest all have only "minor differences" - but then again perhaps you are rising above the debate that has raged between them. At least you aren't saying Catholics are true Christians and so on.



I know, still doesn't stop it being convenient.



I was joking, but for the sake of your frustration I have always considered the whole spiritual warfare/psuedo-divine influence and temptation to derive ones own agenda a rather questionable concept. If anything it makes me question the concept of the Bible (as it is claimed) even more.

For a book with such a purpose to be vague enough to allow the conflict to begin with seems to imply it is not nearly as strong or pure as it claims. And once again it makes me wonder about God's claim to just want us all to be saved when negative influences can somehow influence from his holy text.



I am pleased you are so confident you have divined the Bible correctly.

JaehSkywalker
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I understand completely.


But Faith is not knowledge....and our emotions often decieve us... wink

agreed. that's different.

but this is different too.

and your opinion, not mine. wink

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
agreed. that's different.

but this is different too.

and your opinion, not mine. wink

How is it different ? What makes your conviction that God is with you any more valid than my convictions that Biblical God doesn't exist ?

PVS
Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
that one's a sock? oh well...

answer: I know i'm going to heaven. I believe in Christ, accepted Him as my Lord and Saviour, and have a personal relationship with him. Its by faith, not religion. its a relationship with the Lord, not a religion. big difference.

Sure, I'm a sinner. I know that. but i repent my sins to God, and He forgives them. *ends answer*

that good enough?

not entirely. do not forget the abiding of the 10 commandments. repentance is not as simple as consciously knowing you're a sinner and using that as a 'get out of jail free' card. repentance is truly repenting for your sin, as opposed to just saying "im sowwy" and everything is ok.

im sure you know this, but others dont. and that is the unfortunate folly of many christians, the denial that with true repentance comes a vow to do everything within one's power to avoid the same sin.

also, a 'personal' relationship with christ has a one-way dialogue, so those who are deluded can determine whatever they wish about what christ expects of them (see dubya...or JIA). just food for thought.

:edit: what im saying is that christianity's strongest selling points are also its achilles heel, imho

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
How many think they are? Out of the following groups which do you consider correct/Biblically true:

Mormons Y/N
Greek Orthodox Y/N
Roman Catholic Y/N
Church of England Y/N
Jehovah's Witness Y/N
Pentecostal Y/N
Presbyterian Y/N
Anglican Y/N
Methodists Y/N
Baptists Y/N
Brethren Y/N
Charismatic Y/N
Quakers Y/N
Christian Scientists Y/N
Messianic Judaism Y/N
Seventh Day Eventests Y/N

Which of course leaves out the massive variety under such umbrella headings, as well as all the others.

Eastern Orthodox are different to Greek Orthodox, since Greek Orthodox have a closer relations with Catholic Church by accepting Christmas to be celebrated on 25th of Dec, as opposed to 7th of Jan.

Greek Orthodox do not equal Eastern Orthodox. They are part of.

Furthermore, Orthodoxy pre-dates Catholicism.

Also, for some reason, there don't seem to be any Coptic Christians on that list which make up a very high population in the east, particulary so in Egypt.

Furthermore, highest amounts of Christians in the East tend to be Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian Orthodox, Coptic Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians which are (believe it or not) different to Catholic Church of the West. (yes there is stil ''Pope of Rome'' going on)

What you have up there are all Western interpretation of the Bible, and thus not having much of a core differance.

Great Schism of 1054, West - East is where the real differances lie.

Just for information purposes....

Lord Urizen
yawn interesting...

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm. I'm surprised Brethren got through. But... interesting.
Actually, I hadn't heard of them before. I made a note beforehand but accidentally deleted it.

In some ways, Catholics deviate solidly from Scripture. However, I'm not going to open that whole can of worms.

Furthermore, the "debate that has raged between them"...well, churches have split entirely for lesser offenses.

It is not the Bible that is influenced but rather our perceptions.

I am, too. Would you care for a cookie? I know I'll be enjoying them.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Thank you for sending millions of good people to hell. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Don't thank me--in fact, don't even thank God. Thank the fact that they ignore Scripture based on salvation.

Or would you rather just assume I'm in charge of dealing out justice? Maybe I'll get enough followers to toss around a lightning bolt or three.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
And what evidence do you have to prove the statement above is a valid one?

I love how this was just conveniently ignored..He..He..

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