Ghost Rider vs Doomsday

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PRAYERRUN
Ghost Rider vs Doomsday.


Doomsday has just laid to ruins half the city of Metropolis, & Ghost Rider is there to put an end to the slaughter. CAN he? or is he too evil for the penence stair?

Howard_Jones
How can you be too evil for the penance stare? no expression That doesn't even make sense

nvrbeenwthagirl
Does doomsday have a soul or a concience to care?

StarsNeverFall7
This would vary on which doomsday I think..

PRAYERRUN
I was talking about the Doomsday that killed Superman. Personally I don't see Doomsday with a conscience or morals except for maybe a good work ethicstick out tongue

StarsNeverFall7
The doomsday that killed Superman didn't have intelligence. Like Superman says before he was just a killing machine, no emotion, feelings, fear, etc. So GR's stare may not have much effect.

Martian_mind
Plus would gr get a chance to use the penance stare at all?

StarsNeverFall7
Before DD got ahold of him, I doubt it. The DD that killed Superman was a beast...

bigbran
Originally posted by StarsNeverFall7
Before DD got ahold of him, I doubt it. The DD that killed Superman was a beast... He was also the weakest one.

StarsNeverFall7
I meant more along the lines of the whole "hulk stupid" kinda thing... does the penace stare require the victim to have mental capacity? Like do they have to understand that they have hurt people in order for it to work, or is it just based on if they have hurt or killed?

Starhawk
The Penance Stare doesn't work that way. It makes the person relive everything they've done from their victims perspective. So it doesn't matter if he has morals he lives it as his vicitms did. And The Penance Stare isn't his only weapon. There's also the Hellfire...

juggernaut66666
Doomsday 10/10

Starhawk
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Doomsday 10/10

Based on?

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
Based on?
Comic knowledge and feats

Starhawk
"The Penance Stare doesn't work that way. It makes the person relive everything they've done from their victims perspective. So it doesn't matter if he has morals he lives it as his vicitms did. And The Penance Stare isn't his only weapon. There's also the Hellfire..."

One addressing these points?

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
"The Penance Stare doesn't work that way. It makes the person relive everything they've done from their victims perspective. So it doesn't matter if he has morals he lives it as his vicitms did. And The Penance Stare isn't his only weapon. There's also the Hellfire..."

One addressing these points?
When DD when to OA it took a Guardians life to only BFR him.
Satisfied?

Starhawk
no re-read what I said. he would experiance it from the Guardians point of view not his own.

juggernaut66666
DD has superspeed which GR cannot match .

Starhawk
Still doesn't awnser the points I brought up.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
Still doesn't awnser the points I brought up.
What the hell do you want me to explain????????
DD won't wait for GR to use his attacks on him he would be the living shit out of him before he could move.

Starhawk
Doomsday doesnt possess Superspeed. Try again.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
Doomsday doesnt possess Superspeed. Try again.
laughing laughing laughing
Go read comics smartass.

Starhawk
I have, show me a scan from the Death of Superman where he moves at superspeed.

Dr Strange can teleport and Ghost Rider still put the stare on him.

juggernaut66666
You are starting to get really annoying
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Death_of_Superman_TPB-143.jpg

Starhawk
All that means is Supes wasn't fighting at his full potential. Doomsday is fast but not super fast. If you read the rest of that, when supes goes into his super speed he's MUCH faster then Doomsday. And if GR can get the stare on Dr Strange who can teleport then he can get it on Doomsday.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
All that means is Supes wasn't fighting at his full potential. Doomsday is fast but not super fast. If you read the rest of that, when supes goes into his super speed he's MUCH faster then Doomsday. And if GR can get the stare on Dr Strange who can teleport then he can get it on Doomsday.
laughing laughing laughing laughing
Get that shit out of here and read comics...

Starhawk
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
laughing laughing laughing laughing
Get that shit out of here and read comics...

And more insults that don't address the points I brought up.

Ichigo66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
And more insults that don't address the points I brought up.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6175/doomsdayspeednp9.jpg

The Killer he is as fast as lightning.

Starhawk
That's a dream of Superman's. One made from his fear of Doomsday. (Exceprt is from "Hunter/Prey"wink In the dream he also saw himself as a kid facing Doomsday.

I've read allot more comics then you seem to think so don;t try to twist things. I'll know.

Ichigo66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
That's a dream of Superman's. One made from his fear of Doomsday. (Exceprt is from "Hunter/Prey"wink In the dream he also saw himself as a kid facing Doomsday.

I've read allot more comics then you seem to think so don;t try to twist things. I'll know.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7048/planeaj8.jpg

Starhawk
That's when Brainiac took over Doomsdays body. And he can leap very far like the Hulk so it makes sense he could land on a plane. And that's not the version of Doomsday we are talking about anyway.

Ichigo66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
That's when Brainiac took over Doomsdays body. And he can leap very far like the Hulk so it makes sense he could land on a plane. And that's not the version of Doomsday we are talking about anyway.

It is still what Doomsday is capable of. On this forum we use the characters to there greatest potential. It is the same damn Doomsday more or less.

Starhawk
No it's Doomsday with a competent mind behind it who can use his abilities to a greater extent. And it was spacifically stated we are dealing with Doomsday during the "Death of Superman" storyline exclusively.

Ichigo66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
No it's Doomsday with a competent mind behind it who can use his abilities to a greater extent. And it was spacifically stated we are dealing with Doomsday during the "Death of Superman" storyline exclusively.

It is Doomsdays powers been used to a good extent. We use anyones power like this on here.

Starhawk
The maker of the thread specified only Death of Superman Doomsday. That's what we go by.

Ichigo66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
The maker of the thread specified only Death of Superman Doomsday. That's what we go by.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)
http://www.dcdatabaseproject.com/Doomsday

Learn your facts f*cktard.

Starhawk
And I knew the insults would come sooner or later. Those websites are not considered concrete proof on these forums. The comics themselves are. And I've refutted all the scans that have been presented.

This thread is only about the "Death of Superman" Doomsday. So only evidence from that story is rellevent.

And I say again, if ghost rider can manage to get the stare on Dr Strange who can teleport, he can get it on Doomsday.

Now as to the effect of the stare. Doomsday would experience all the pain and emotions of his vicitms. This sent Strange into a catatonic state that nearly killed him.

It's effect on the Death of Superman Doomsday is questionable. Even if he feels all the pain and the terrror of his victims and the suffering of their deaths. Would he shrug it off afterwards is the question.

But there is also the Hellfire. And I don't think Doomsday has ever fought someone with Hellfire, so that to is an open question.

King Kandy
Penance stare wouldn't work, since this doomsday can't comprehend pain.

Starhawk
HE doesn't need to comprehend it, he feels it from his VICTIM's perspectives.

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
DD has superspeed which GR cannot match .

Ghost Rider defeated Dr. Strange recently, and has beaten The Avengers, Blackheart, etc. There comes a point where speed is not an issue, and this is one of them. Also, he only displayed great speed in one showing, and even then it's debatable.

Also, Doomsday took pleasure in taking life in DOS. The penance stare would work. He's also shown that pleasure in multiple incarnations.

TricksterPriest
Doomsday doesn't have the brains most of the time to understand what a different person's perspective is like. I think it wouldn't faze him. GR is ****ed.

Starhawk
Yes but if he's given the stare he feels it as if he was them, his mental capacity only matters before and after the stare.

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Doomsday doesn't have the brains most of the time to understand what a different person's perspective is like. I think it wouldn't faze him. GR is ****ed.

He does. He understands pain and anger, as he already demonstrated in DOS.

juggernaut66666
Does GR has superspeed? No
Does DD have superspeed? Yes
I hope you don't take the fight against Strange to serious.

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Does GR has superspeed? No

There comes a point when it doesn't matter, and this is one of those cases.



It's not the first time Ghost Rider has beaten a tougher opponent than Doomsday. He's beaten Blackheart, the Avengers, etc. He even made Thor look like a total jackass.

Also, Doomsday has one occasion where he showed some minor superspeed, but later on was getting blitzed by Superman in a different appearance. Also, he's never displayed speed on more than one occasion. Even so, it's not gonna matter much when the Penance Stare gets locked in.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Howard_Jones
There comes a point when it doesn't matter, and this is one of those cases.



It's not the first time Ghost Rider has beaten a tougher opponent than Doomsday. He's beaten Blackheart, the Avengers, etc. He even made Thor look like a total jackass.

Also, Doomsday has one occasion where he showed some minor superspeed, but later on was getting blitzed by Superman in a different appearance. Also, he's never displayed speed on more than one occasion. Even so, it's not gonna matter much when the Penance Stare gets locked in.
On the other hand when Gr first met Venom.Brock punked him very badly

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
On the other hand when Gr first met Venom.Brock punked him very badly

I remember Venom wrapped in chains begging Ketch not to use the Penance Stare on him, and Ketch let him go so they could bring down those terrorists. Sign of the Boss, issue 2, correct?

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Howard_Jones
I remember Venom wrapped in chains begging Ketch not to use the Penance Stare on him, and Ketch let him go so they could bring down those terrorists. Sign of the Boss, issue 2, correct?
No.
Spirit of Vengeance 06
Is Ghost Rider allowed to use the Penance Stare after all ( I mean current)?I heared he can't use it.

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
No.
Spirit of Vengeance 06
Is Ghost Rider allowed to use the Penance Stare after all ( I mean current)?I heared he can't use it.

Knights of Vengeance or Spirit of Vengeance?

Yeah, he still has the stare.

King_Mungi
Johnny Blaze didn't have the peance stare when he first started out as Ghost Rider, but with the new series it's revealed he has gained the ability.

juggernaut66666
Venom vs Ghost Rider
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/1-36.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/2-26.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/3-22.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/4-17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/5-16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/6-14.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/7-10.jpg

King_Mungi
The penance stare didn't work if the person was high on drugs, blind, or if the person had more than two eyes

Jvenom
DD is near industrustable, stronger than Superman, just as fast, and kills without a thought. Ghost Rider would never get a chance to use the peance stare before he is ripped in half. He needs time to use it and will not get that chance with DD.

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Venom vs Ghost Rider
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/1-36.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/2-26.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/3-22.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/4-17.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/5-16.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/6-14.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/7-10.jpg

Good showing for Venom. If you don't mind, can I use that on my Venom respect thread on a different site?

Anywho, so they're 1 and 1, right? Or did they fight in Spirits of Venom? I don't remember that one completely. Ketch beat Venom in Sign of the boss as well, using his chain instead of the hellfire.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Howard_Jones
Good showing for Venom. If you don't mind, can I use that on my Venom respect thread on a different site?

Anywho, so they're 1 and 1, right? Or did they fight in Spirits of Venom? I don't remember that one completely. Ketch beat Venom in Sign of the boss as well, using his chain instead of the hellfire.
I only heared about these 2 fights.

Howard_Jones
They may have fought again in Spirits of Venom, but I'm not sure.

Starhawk
This is a whole new Ghost Rider with a MUCH more powerfull Stare.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by Starhawk
This is a whole new Ghost Rider with a MUCH more powerfull Stare.
Much more powerfull stare???? confused

Starhawk
Yes, did you not get that this Ghost Rider was given extra power? AS you say try reading the new series.

King_Mungi
Actually no where was it stated it was a much more powerful stare, and yes I have the series.

juggernaut66666
Can some one show me a scan of the series arc saying that his Penace Stare is more powerfull.

Starhawk
It sent Dr Strange into a cataonic state and it would've killed him.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Can some one show me a scan of the series arc saying that his Penace Stare is more powerfull.

There is no scan, he just makes a comment he seems to have the peance stare now and he uses it.

Originally posted by Starhawk
It sent Dr Strange into a cataonic state and it would've killed him.

We don't even know if the old penance stare couldn't do that, so don't claim it's more powerful as it wasn't stated as such.

Starhawk
But Strange DID make comment as to him being granted more power and the old Penance stare didn't kill.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
But Strange DID make comment as to him being granted more power and the old Penance stare didn't kill.

No Strange never made a comment about him given more power.

edit: Johnny states: "It's the Spirit of Vengeance and it's telling me that I'm capable of more power than I'd ever realized" as he just found out he could do things such as chain from the mouth and now the peance stare. Nothing about how it's stronger

Starhawk
Hold on Ill go get my issue. It was him or Clea

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
Hold on Ill go get my issue. It was him or Clea

I just reread Strange's apperances and he doesn't say anything to that regard. Clea made no comment about the peance stare, but said "you have more power than you know" after Johnny believed he killed Strange and said he doesn't have the power to help.

Starhawk
Yes and the Penance Stare never used to kill people.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
Yes and the Penance Stare never used to kill people.

No where did it state it could kill him. He was just put into a coma. GR didn't do anything to help.

Starhawk
It was killing him, Clea had to save him.

King_Mungi
Clea didn't do anything, at the end a tear from Clea landed on Strange and he woke up. If he was near death do you honestly think she wouldn't have done something sooner?

Starhawk
Okay then post the scans from when Clea appears and when Strange wakes up and prove me wrong.

King_Mungi
Why do I need to prove the scans? Strange was down for 10 minutes while GR and Clea talked over his body no one even aknowledging him at this point. They continued to talk until GR left, and Clea cried and the tear woke Strange up. The proof of burden is on you as your claiming the ability did something that wasn't shown or stated in the actual comic.

How that proves he nearly died is beyond me.

juggernaut66666
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Clea didn't do anything, at the end a tear from Clea landed on Strange and he woke up. If he was near death do you honestly think she wouldn't have done something sooner?
It won't help Mungi
This guy said that any 6 year old could use the power gem to it's full potentional and could beat Pre-Crisis Superman with it.

King_Mungi
I would have to post the entire issue as Clea and GR talked over Strange the entire issue and the last page Strange woke up.

Starhawk
That is a distortion of what I said.

And i ask you to provide scans to refute what i am claiming, it's quite a common request on this board.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
That is a distortion of what I said.

And i ask you to provide scans to refute what i am claiming, it's quite a common request on this board.

Alright I will try to download the torrent as my scanner is on the fritzy. However, that means I have to post the entire issue

Starhawk
Be my guest.

King_Mungi
Actually why am I bothering? your the one who stated the peance state was stronger and no where was it stated, you stated it nearly kileld strange and no where is it stated. The proof of burden is on you, not me. So it's your job to put up as your the one claiming a lot but havn't backed anything up.

Starhawk
No I stated it was stronger and it almost killed Strange, your the one who's saying I'm wrong hence the buirden of proof is on you.

King_Mungi
Actually no it's on you since your the one claiming something that was stated when in fact it wasn't. Clearly even reading it you know damn well he wasn't near death as no one did anything until the very last page where Clea cried because GR left. You credibility is already in doubt since you claimed the peance stare was stronger, but no where was that stated. You said there was a direct quote, when there was nothing. Burden of proof is on you.

Far to much work for me to download a torrent, save it to my hardrive, upload it to a site and then link it here when the WHOLE issue no one did anything to help Strange no one even bothered saving him. They continued talking.

Starhawk
If you are so sure im wrong show the scans and prove it. The real reason is that you can't. Comic Book torrents are small and download fast.

Howard_Jones
Actually, Starhawk is correct. The Penance Stare did work on Dr. Strange.

lorddreamer
I still say Doomsday wind smile (Please don't attack me!!!)
This is because GR has to decide to use the Stare, which DD will not allow him to do. Thought takes time, so does effort. And this situation is waaay different from Strange teleporting away; was GR under any pressure?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
If you are so sure im wrong show the scans and prove it. The real reason is that you can't. Comic Book torrents are small and download fast.

haha right, you do realize how many scans I have posted in the various threads? how many have you posted? please your a joke. I'm trying to find a torrent for GR #4 vol.3 having little success, but if need be I will post a page by page summary of the entire issue to prove you wrong as you know your full of it. Never has my credibility been in doubt on this board, and in two seperate threads you exagerated GR's abilities and called you up on it and you were wrong. I love the fact your ignoring that your the one claiming such and such, the burden is on you.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Howard_Jones
Actually, Starhawk is correct. The Penance Stare did work on Dr. Strange.

Where the hell did I state otherwise? he said it nearly killed him. God read what I wrote.

edit: wait since you read the issue as well did it ever say in the entire issue #4-5 that the peance stare was stronger?

Starhawk
It almost killed Strange, it has never done that before, so it's obviously stronger.

King_Mungi
NO IT DIDN'T, NOT ONCE DID IT SAY THAT!

That's it I'm typing up the entire comic word for word. Your so full of it.

Starhawk
Scans or nothing, we arn't going to just take your word for it.

King_Mungi
HA! You know you will be proven wrong, I can get countless members to vouche for my credibility...what do you have?

I'm typing it up as we speak

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Where the hell did I state otherwise? he said it nearly killed him. God read what I wrote.

edit: wait since you read the issue as well did it ever say in the entire issue #4-5 that the peance stare was stronger?

Crap. I'd have to get a hold of a friend of mine. He's borrowing it. I'm not 100 percent sure though.

Starhawk
Scans or nothing, you can get lots of your pals to come on and say nice things about you, I'm sure your a pleasent person to be around on most circumstances.

But I am not taking your word for it. You say I'm wrong provide the scans to do it and if it proves me wrong I will admit it, but nothing else will do.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Howard_Jones
Crap. I'd have to get a hold of a friend of mine. He's borrowing it. I'm not 100 percent sure though.

Get it back as soon as you can, because I want to prove to Starhawk it doesn't

Originally posted by Starhawk
Scans or nothing, you can get lots of your pals to come on and say nice things about you, I'm sure your a pleasent person to be around on most circumstances.

But I am not taking your word for it. You say I'm wrong provide the scans to do it and if it proves me wrong I will admit it, but nothing else will do.

Awww..because you know your wrong and when others who have read the issue can varify it now what? you going to cry again? It's you who has to provide the scans

What are you an idiot? you have the issue yourself don't you? if I'm lying you would know. Uh oh, you know your in trouble now.

inamilist
Originally posted by King_Mungi
HA! You know you will be proven wrong, I can get countless members to vouche for my credibility...what do you have?

I'm typing it up as we speak

lol, if it saves you time, i'm getting the new series on a torrent atm

what issues need to be up'ed?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by inamilist
lol, if it saves you time, i'm getting the new series on a torrent atm

what issues need to be up'ed?

#4, that's it. I'll still keep typing and then people can match up with what I type to the actual comic to show Starhawk's a liar.

Starhawk
Im at a friends house tyring to borrow his scanner for another thread and that's why and if I am wrong it doesnt make me a liar I asked you to provide scans to prove what you are saying and you are being rude about it.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
Im at a friends house tyring to borrow his scanner for another thread and that's why and if I am wrong it doesnt make me a liar I asked you to provide scans to prove what you are saying and you are being rude about it.

Don't try to pussy foot around this, your being called on this no ifs or buts. You tried to call me on this, and now it's going to backfire

First couple page summaries coming up

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by inamilist
lol, if it saves you time, i'm getting the new series on a torrent atm

what issues need to be up'ed?

Check your PMs!

King_Mungi
()=Inner thoughts
""=Talking
**=what's happening

Page.1, panel.1
*GR holds strange making eye contact*
Ghost Rider: (I know what this is...I've seen this before. The kid, Danny Ketch--He used to do this when he was the Ghost Rider. This is the penance statre. It's not something I've used before not something I knew I could tap into but then again, I'm not calling the shots right now)
Ghost Rider: "Burn, you son of a *****"

Page.1, panel.2
*close up on GR's face*
Ghost Rider: "It is the Spirit of Vengeance, and it's telling me that I'm capable of more power than I'd realized."
Ghost Rider: "Burn!"

Page. 1, panel.3
*close on Strange's face, smoke coming from his mouth*
Ghost Rider: (As far as I know, the penance stare forces the guilty to experience all of the pain and torment that they've caused. There's only one problem, and I don't see it until it's to late: )

Page.1, panel.4
*close up on GR's face*
Ghost Rider: "You're not him. You're not Lucifer"

Page.1, panel.5
*shot of GR standing over Strange lied out on the ground*
Ghost Rider: (This is an innocent man)

Page.2
*Full page of GR standing over the body of Dr.Strange, no clear pupils on Strange*
Ghost Rider: "and just like that, I'm back in the drivers seat..and holding the bag. I screwed up.

Page.3, panel.1
*Ghost rider kneels to Strange's body*

Page.3, panel.2
*Ghost Rider puts his head on Strange's chest*
Ghost Rider: ""Oh god.."

Page.3, panel.3
*GR trys to revive Strange*
Ghost Rider: "Breathe..C'mon..Breathe!"

Page.3, panel.4
*close up on GR looking at Strange's face*
Ghost Rider: "You have to help me, damnit..because I can't help you."

Page.3, panel.5
*long shot of GR holding Strange*
Ghost Rider: "I don't have that kinda power"

Page.3, panel.6
*bright flash of light*
Numecet: "you have more power than you know Johnny Blaze"

Page.4
*full shot of Numcet appearing over strange and GR*
Numecet: ::..more power than any human should have"

Page.5, panel.1
*GR reverts back to his human form*

Page.5, panel.2
*Numecet look over strange, with GR shocked as he is still human*
Ghost Rider: ""are..are you an angel?"
Numecet: "to some.."

Page.5, panel.3
*close up on Numecet looking over strange hand extended*
Numecet: "..but to Stephen Strange. I am simply a friend. My name is Numecet."

Page.5, panel.4
*Human GR looks over*
Ghost Rider: ""I'm sorry..I thought he was..Lucifer. In disguise. I...I don't know what to do!"

Page.5, panel.5
*shot of Numecet*
Numecet: "There is much you do not know..."

Page.6, panel.1
*close up on Human GR's eyes*
Ghost Rider: "Do uoi know what's going on? What is Lucifer up to?"

Page.6, panel.2
*Human GR turns back to his demon form*
Ghost Rider: "Whay did he mean by "Six hundrd and sixty-five more chances?"
Numecet: "it is not..I cannot involve myself in this.."

Page.6, panel.3
*chain appears wrapping around Numecet's neck*
Ssssshhhhink

Page.6, panel.4
*close up of GR's looking directly into Numecet's eyes*
Ghost Rider: "Too late."

Page.7, panel.1
*shot of GR holding Numecet*
Numecet: "How dare you--!"
Ghost Rider: "I want answers!"

Page.7, panel.2
*close up on Numecet's face*
Numecet: "you want vengeance"

Page.7, panel.3
*close up of GR's mouth*
Ghost Rider: "Exactally"

Page.7, panel.4
*Numecet shot*
Numecet: "you poor soul..do you not know where that path ultimately leads?:

Page.7, panel.5
*GR close up*
Ghost Rider: "Yeah. I do. I've been there..and back"

Page.7, panel.5
*long shot showing strange, Numecet and GR's back to them*
Ghost Rider: "and I brought the devil with me"

Starhawk
Still want scans, but he wasn't breathing, hence dying.

Page.2
*Full page of GR standing over the body of Dr.Strange, no clear pupils on Strange*
Ghost Rider: "and just like that, I'm back in the drivers seat..and holding the bag. I screwed up.

Page.3, panel.1
*Ghost rider kneels to Strange's body*

Page.3, panel.2
*Ghost Rider puts his head on Strange's chest*
Ghost Rider: ""Oh god.."

Page.3, panel.3
*GR trys to revive Strange*
Ghost Rider: "Breathe..C'mon..Breathe!"

Page.3, panel.4
*close up on GR looking at Strange's face*
Ghost Rider: "You have to help me, damnit..because I can't help you."

King_Mungi
Idiot, GR didn't do anything and neither did Numecet. In Spirit of Vengeance, when Dan did this to a thug same thing happened but he didn't die. If you read the entire issue not once did they do anything they continued on talking.

Starhawk
Originally posted by Starhawk
Still want scans, but he wasn't breathing, hence dying.

Page.2
*Full page of GR standing over the body of Dr.Strange, no clear pupils on Strange*
Ghost Rider: "and just like that, I'm back in the drivers seat..and holding the bag. I screwed up.

Page.3, panel.1
*Ghost rider kneels to Strange's body*

Page.3, panel.2
*Ghost Rider puts his head on Strange's chest*
Ghost Rider: ""Oh god.."

Page.3, panel.3
*GR trys to revive Strange*
Ghost Rider: "Breathe..C'mon..Breathe!"

Page.3, panel.4
*close up on GR looking at Strange's face*
Ghost Rider: "You have to help me, damnit..because I can't help you."

I don't know about you, but to the rest of us not breathing is a pretty bad thing.

And when did Dan ketch's stare cause someone not to breathe? Please provide scans for that as well.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
I don't know about you, but to the rest of us not breathing is a pretty bad thing.

And when did Dan ketch's stare cause someone not to breathe? Please provide scans for that as well.

That doesn't mean your dead you idiot. Did they do anything to help? no. If he was dying, don't you think they would have done something. Please. Frig, notice your claims of how the penance stare was stronger is no where to be found? another lie of yours.

That I will get, because it's my mission to show your a liar

Starhawk
Wow , you take this wayy to seriously.

Not breathing? It's one sing of a person whos dying. Cause if they don't start breathing again they will be dead. Biology 101.

And once again IF there is a scan of Dan Ketch's stare doing the same thing then it's doesn't make me a liar since I asked when it happened and for you to prove it.

That's me not being 100% and asking you for proof.

You shouldn't take the debates so personally.

King_Mungi
()=Inner thoughts
""=Talking
**=what's happening

Page.8, panel.1
*flashback of GR escaping Hell and falling to Earth*
Numecet: (You--and only you--possess the ability to transverse between the planes..this is why he used you to escape.)

Page.8, panel.2
*flashback big lightening blast*
Numecet: (But unlike you, Lucifer has no physical repository on the mortal plane in which to reside--so when he crossed over...)

Page.8, panel.3
*flashback, huge explosion*
Numecet: (..He disintegrated)

Page.8, panel.4
*close up on Numecet*
Numecet: "like a falling star"

Page.9, panel.1
*shot of Numecet and GR*
Ghost Rider: "But..he's here! I've seen him"
Numecet: "You've only seen peices of him."

Page.9, panel.2
*shot of falling rocks*
Numecet: (When Lucifer's celestial form, disintegrated, the seperate particles rained down on Earth--)

Page.9, panel.3
*shot of falling rock about to hit a hospital*
Numecet: "--Coming to rest in the bodies of those who were, at that moment"

Page.9, panel.4
*shot of morge*
Numecet: "--crossing over to the immortal plane, taking possession of their souls"

Page.9, panel.5
*shot of dead body rising on morgue table*
Numecet: "..and reawakening them."

Page.10, panel.1
*Shot of GR and Numecet*
Ghost Rider: "How many?"

Page.11, panel.2
*flashback of GR dealing with the trucker*

Page.11, panel.3
*Ghost Rider yelling*
Ghost Rider: I said, How many?"

Page.11, panel.4
*shot of Numecet"

Page.11, panel.5
*shot of Numecet"
Numecet: "surely, you already know the number of the beast, Johnny"

Notice not once are they helping Strange

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
Wow , you take this wayy to seriously.

Not breathing? It's one sing of a person whos dying. Cause if they don't start breathing again they will be dead. Biology 101.

And once again IF there is a scan of Dan Ketch's stare doing the same thing then it's doesn't make me a liar since I asked when it happened and for you to prove it.

That's me not being 100% and asking you for proof.

You shouldn't take the debates so personally.

Dr.Strange ventures into space, and can't die as stated in his series. Get it? oh probally not

Right, and did they aid him to help him breath again? no. thus he wasn't serious

God you anger me, when you made comments about similar manner did you provide evidence? no. Yet I have to automatically do it and then you claim I can't and attacked my credibility. No your done.

You personally attacked my credibility, now yours is in question

Starhawk
Still isn't scans. so I have no way of knowing if it's real or not.

And I never said it killed him, I said it nearly killed him.

Brian Oswald
If DD is really 'the perfect killing machine' he wouldnt feel remorse for killing his victims and the PS wouldnt work.

Starhawk
It's not the remorse that matters, its experiencing everything he's ever done to his victims through there perspective.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
Still isn't scans. so I have no way of knowing if it's real or not.

And I never said it killed him, I said it nearly killed him.

You have the damn ISSUE YOURSELF

oh no? Also stop dodging where is your quote that the penance stare is stronger?

Originally posted by Starhawk
It sent Dr Strange into a cataonic state and it would've killed him.

Then you made several comments about how the penance stare could kill, and no where was that stated either. You implied it could have killed him, when Death even stated Strange is immortal

Originally posted by Starhawk
But Strange DID make comment as to him being granted more power and the old Penance stare didn't kill.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Yes and the Penance Stare never used to kill people.

Originally posted by Starhawk
It was killing him, Clea had to save him.

Starhawk
yes and he wasn't breathing, hence dying. Read a biology textbook.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
yes and he wasn't breathing, hence dying. Read a biology textbook.

I graduated from pre: health and not breathing does not equal death fool. So if I hold my breath or get punched in the throat I'm dead? It means you can't take in oxygen for sustanance, but notice in the issue not one of them help him to breath. So was he really in serious trouble? By your logic he was already dead. Brilliant.

Alright captain wow, where or where is the scan that shows the two desperately trying to save Strange who all this time when they were talking wasn't breathing? they talked for an extedned period of time and not once did they do anything? Oh my oh my...ignoring points is your strong suit. Oh my oh my, your still dodging your earlier comments about how Strange stated the penance stare was stronger. Oh my oh my.

Starhawk
As I said your the one on a (far too) personal mission to prove me wrong, you provide scans.

And ask any paramedic, not breathing means dying. We aren't talking about diffculty breathing, we are talking about passed out and NOT breathing at all.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
As I said your the one on a (far too) personal mission to prove me wrong, you provide scans.

And ask any paramedic, not breathing means dying. We aren't talking about diffculty breathing, we are talking about passed out and NOT breathing at all.

inamilist will shortly, still dodging the fact your earlier claims are lies? oh my.

You obviouslly missed the point. As if Strange was not breathing for that extended period of time, don't you think he would have..I don't know been dead? Get the analogy? if he was actually dying don't you think he would have been dead by your logic? yet they did nothing, and yet they continued talking over top of his body like nothing happened. They didn't help...AT ALL.

thedude1948
Strange seemingly had no pulse and wasn't breathing, and the first thing Numecet did when she appeared was check on Strange. But even if Strange wasn't breathing or had no pulse I still wouldn't say he was close to death, it is Strange after all.....

King_Mungi
Originally posted by thedude1948
Strange seemingly had no pulse and wasn't breathing, and the first thing Numecet did when she appeared was check on Strange. But even if Strange wasn't breathing or had no pulse I still wouldn't say he was close to death, it is Strange after all.....

Exactally, even Death said he was immortal. Death even tried personally tried to go after Strange and of course still lives.

inamilist
Part 1, the stare and Strange's reaction

1.
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7471/stare01hx1.th.jpg

nothing really revealing here, just the PS.

2.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3703/astare2fl1.th.jpg

Ghost Rider explains why he can use the Penenance stare and stating that clearly the Spirit of Vengence is working through him*

3.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9057/astare3mi9.th.jpg

pretty self explainitory

4.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4639/astare4zf0.th.jpg

here things get interesting

the first 3 panels show that, yup, strange isnt breathing, which, as any paramedic will tell you, leads to further complications such as heart failure, which leads to brain failure, which leads to death.

Johnny clearly knows this, as by the third panel he is panicking and by the end of the page he is clutching the body desperatly


*please excuse my lack of knowledge on GR and the Spirit of Vengence, but couldn't the fact that it was the spirit and not just GR in control explain why the PS was stronger, if it even was?

Starhawk
So if strange is immortal then thats the only reason he didn't die form the stare, if he was a normal person then he would've died from it.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
So if strange is immortal then thats the only reason he didn't die form the stare, if he was a normal person then he would've died from it.

NO! There is no indication it kills. You have no proof it does.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by inamilist
Johnny clearly knows this, as by the third panel he is panicking and by the end of the page he is clutching the body desperatly


Post the rest of the scans showing all they did for Strange, basically just talking over his body.

inamilist
Part 2, Numecet shows up

1.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9388/bchick1un1.th.jpg

basic splash page

2.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4799/bchick2lg8.th.jpg

Immediatly she rushes to Strange's side, this does indicate concern over his life.

in pannel 2-4 she is assessing his lifesigns (apparently) and then by the last panel has turned her attention compleatly to GR.

3.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6315/bchick3pw9.th.jpg

Not really important to the debate, aside from the fact that, after having just assessed Strange's physical condition, Numecet is compleatly uninterested in providing AR, CPR or obtaining any other forms of care for Strange. On the previous pages she had shown concern through her actions.

4.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3203/bchick4ih1.th.jpg

Exact same as previous scan. No concern for Strange's health after assessing him, although there was prior to

5.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/755/bchick5ki1.th.jpg

again, no rush at all

inamilist
Part 3, Strange comes back

An important note, after the last scan with Strange's body under the two arguing, the comic goes on for the rest of the issue as if there is a conversation between Numecet and Ghost Rider. They are still in the cemetary and there is no mention of Strange, though the conversation would have taken a few minutes. Long enough that, were strange really dying, he would have been dead of have suffered serious brain damage

1.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6852/strangeawakes1xu1.th.jpg

It clearly looks like Numecet's tears wake Mr. Strange up. This means one of two things:

a) Numecet has the power to revive people with her tears. However, if she had this power and only used it now when Strange was out of harms way (ie, Ghost rider had left) it clearly shows that she was not concerned with Strange dying.

b) (this is also the one I like) comics are full of cliches. Tears waking someone up is the least cheesy nuance of the genre (of lots of genres really)

but this raises a good question, why is numecet crying?

2.
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/3149/strangeawakes2iu2.th.jpg

because of stuff that GR said about killing people and satan. NOT what GR did to strange.

In fact, the tears that might have saved strange would have been shed over an unrelated matter, which leads me even further to suspect choice "b" above

Starhawk
Originally posted by King_Mungi
NO! There is no indication it kills. You have no proof it does.

It caused Strange to go catatonic and stop breathing, if you have any medical knowledge thats called Shock and people do die from it.

We can assume the only thing that saved him was his immortality.

So on a normal person who isn't immortal it would cause them to go into a cataonic state and stop breathing hence die.

inamilist
So, what I conclude is this

1) The stare COULD have been powered up by the Spirit of Vengence (if thats at all possible) however we dont know that

2) It is most likely that it would not have killed Strange, though there is no evidence for what it would do to a normal human

to make this relevant to the topic though.... Has GR ever used the stare on something that does not have human level capacities for developing morality?

Like, say he used it on a tiger, would the tiger feel pain for all the animals it had killed?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
It caused Strange to go catatonic and stop breathing, if you have any medical knowledge thats called Shock and people do die from it.

We can assume the only thing that saved him was his immortality.

So on a normal person who isn't immortal it would cause them to go into a cataonic state and stop breathing hence die.

Hardly as in the Spirit of Vengeance it was said when the peance stare hits people they do the same thing as the "shock, they lose their breath". If I have time tommorow since I work I will get the scans.

Have no proof either or

NO! You have no proof of that either, good lord you tell me to provide proof yet you can make assumptions and claim them as fact?

Your entire point where it was stated by Strange that the penance stare was augmented is incorrent and that's what started this entire debate. Admit you were wrong with that, and we can all move on.

inamilist
Originally posted by Starhawk
It caused Strange to go catatonic and stop breathing, if you have any medical knowledge thats called Shock and people do die from it.

shock is a little differant...

however, it is NOT the lack of breathing that kills someone, it is the series of events that follows not intaking oxygen for long enough

yes, thats splitting hairs and getting really technical, if you want to keep saying it your way, nobody who isnt trained medically wont correct you

Originally posted by Starhawk
We can assume the only thing that saved him was his immortality.

there is no indication of what saved him. This speculation is as likely as saying Numecet saved him while assessing him in part 2 of the scans I posted

Originally posted by Starhawk
So on a normal person who isn't immortal it would cause them to go into a cataonic state and stop breathing hence die.

there is no evidence of what would happen if GR used his stare on a mortal. There is no evidence that a mortal would go catatonic

I think there is a major thing people are missing here. Strange is a time traveling, dimensional jumping, abstract battling sorcerer supreme. The suffering he has caused has probably been so much more than any mortal could comprehend......

now, please note, none of this says that GR could not kill a mortal with a PS. It is just that Marvel has not shown GR killing a mortal with the PS.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by inamilist
there is no evidence of what would happen if GR used his stare on a mortal. There is no evidence that a mortal would go catatonic

I think there is a major thing people are missing here. Strange is a time traveling, dimensional jumping, abstract battling sorcerer supreme. The suffering he has caused has probably been so much more than any mortal could comprehend......

now, please note, none of this says that GR could not kill a mortal with a PS. It is just that Marvel has not shown GR killing a mortal with the PS.

THANK YOU! That's what I have been saying.

Starhawk
The effect's of the Penance Stare put Strange into a state of shock, which has killed many normal humans. If he did it to a human then the effect would kill.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
The effect's of the Penance Stare put Strange into a state of shock, which has killed many normal humans. If he did it to a human then the effect would kill.

Killed many humans eh? now I'm going to pull your card...proof!

inamilist
Originally posted by Starhawk
The effect's of the Penance Stare put Strange into a state of shock, which has killed many normal humans. If he did it to a human then the effect would kill.

Shock is much less deadly than you seem to be assuming

bite on your finger, guess what, you are now in shock!

to properly make an assessment like this, we would have to be able to quantify the ammount of suffering that strange has caused and then say:

X ammount of suffering causes Y ammount of shock in a PS.

maybe if a normal human had caused as much suffering as strange, it would kill them, this is probably a solid hypothesis

but like all hypothesis(i), it needs further proof. Since we have to wait for marvel to give us examples, there is an impasse.

Basically, if you assume anything, its incorrect until marvel confirms it. The whole thing with Wolverine and immortality is a perfect example of this.

anyways, back to GR vs DD, has GR ever PS'd anything that wasnt human?

inamilist
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Killed many humans eh? now I'm going to pull your card...proof!

lol, it does

however, its not a deadly thing like he is alluding to

your body naturally shuts down its functions in the case of massive problems. If you have ever fainted after being injured, that is shock

in some cases it can lead to heart failure or other such things, but for the most part is an evoloutionarily adaptive function that helps preserve organic life rather than kill it.

Anaphlaxis on the other hand....

King_Mungi
Originally posted by inamilist
lol, it does

however, its not a deadly thing like he is alluding to

your body naturally shuts down its functions in the case of massive problems. If you have ever fainted after being injured, that is shock

in some cases it can lead to heart failure or other such things, but for the most part is an evoloutionarily adaptive function that helps preserve organic life rather than kill it.

Anaphlaxis on the other hand....

Well yes, if it's shock such as heart failure than that's fine. I thought he meant it out right kills you as is.

which goes with my earlier comments about how thugs during the peanace stare couldn't breath after being inflicted with it. They didn't outright die from the stare

inamilist
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well yes, if it's shock such as heart failure than that's fine. I thought he meant it out right kills you as is.

lol, no, its mostly helpful

EDIT: stick out tongue

King_Mungi
Yeah I edited my comment above incase you missed it.

inamilist
smile man, im such a bully

King_Mungi
bully? how so? I thought you posts were informative.

inamilist
LOL

and sarcasm isnt my strong suit

you're good people mungi!

King_Mungi
Thanks, but today I'm not. I lost my cool and I apologize to Starhawk for my earlier comments, hopefully he won't take offence

Uh...looking back I was in a rush with my posts in this thread.. and good lord, typos galore.

Starhawk
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Killed many humans eh? now I'm going to pull your card...proof!

Okay this is what happened. The overload from the Penace Stare was too much for Strange's mind/body to handle and his body shut down and he stopped breathing.

Any Doctor would tell you that this without medical attention would kill, (Save for those covered under magical immortality, and NO that is NOT the name of an insurance company)

The old Penance Stare at it's worst drove people insane. Not making their bodys shutdown.

Also when was Zarathos seen last?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
Okay this is what happened. The overload from the Penace Stare was too much for Strange's mind/body to handle and his body shut down and he stopped breathing.

Any Doctor would tell you that this without medical attention would kill, (Save for those covered under magical immortality, and NO that is NOT the name of an insurance company)

The old Penance Stare at it's worst drove people insane. Not making their bodys shutdown.

Also when was Zarathos seen last?

Yeah we established, I thought you were implying the stare itself would kill. It's basically what I was going on about how the thugs lost their breath and collapsed when Dan gave them the stare

Couldn't tell you, last I saw him was in an Exiles cameo.

Starhawk
??????? which issue?????? I also hear he appeared in a MC2 issue?

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Starhawk
??????? which issue?????? I also hear he appeared in a MC2 issue?

Exiles #55-57, Kulan Gath is ruling New York and Zarathos who looks like Ghost Rider takes it from him and the heroes have to rally together to get Gath's amulet of power back from him. All the mystical beings in the world were augmented by Gath's spells.

Starhawk
Cool ill get it, thanks and do you know about the MC2 appearnce people are telling me about?

King_Mungi
Yeah he definetly appeared, but have no idea which issue it was. Kaine was the one who summoned Zarathos, but that's all I know. Never followed MC2

Starhawk
Ill wiki it, thanks.

King_Mungi
Once again I apologize for my earlier comments, was completly uncalled for.

Starhawk
As do I, I think we both got out of hand. But don;t worry now we are a role model to the rest of these forums how people can be civilized.

DevilGoblin
Ghost Rider loses horribly.

DD wins 10/10

Starhawk
Originally posted by DevilGoblin
Ghost Rider loses horribly.

DD wins 10/10

Read over this thread and give an informed opinion.

Howard_Jones
Originally posted by inamilist
Part 1, the stare and Strange's reaction

1.
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7471/stare01hx1.th.jpg

nothing really revealing here, just the PS.

2.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3703/astare2fl1.th.jpg

Ghost Rider explains why he can use the Penenance stare and stating that clearly the Spirit of Vengence is working through him*

3.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9057/astare3mi9.th.jpg

pretty self explainitory

4.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4639/astare4zf0.th.jpg

here things get interesting

the first 3 panels show that, yup, strange isnt breathing, which, as any paramedic will tell you, leads to further complications such as heart failure, which leads to brain failure, which leads to death.

Johnny clearly knows this, as by the third panel he is panicking and by the end of the page he is clutching the body desperatly


*please excuse my lack of knowledge on GR and the Spirit of Vengence, but couldn't the fact that it was the spirit and not just GR in control explain why the PS was stronger, if it even was?

Nope. At times Zarathos will posess his body and make him do things he wouldn't do before, such as use the PS on Strange, so forth.

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