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ROTS Sidious and ROTS Anakint team up to fight ROTS Mace and TESB Vader?

Which duo wins?

Anakin takes Vader after a long fight, and I believe Sidious would take Mace, sure in the film Mace took him down in thd duel but Sidious faked the Force-Duel part of it.

Anakin is more agile and a much more capable lightsaber duelist than Vader is, and would very, very likely overwhelm him in a duel - unless Vader attempted to bring his superior command of the Force to bear against Anakin (which I doubt would happen, given Vader's tendancy to engage in lightsaber duels primarily before using the Force as a "last resort" measure - it was never his weapon of choice), and even then, Anakin's speed and ferocity would probably allow him to close the distance and turn it into a close-combat fight, which Vader wouldn't last long in.

Mace versus Sidious is harder to gauge. Mace defeated Sidious in their duel in RotS, as Darthsith has reminded us. But, an obvious indication of Sidious not giving the duel everything he had is when you compare his fight with Mace to his fight with Yoda - in which the Emperor fights much harder and much smarter (with the Force, too). Mace is the superior lightsaber duelist, armed with Vaapad and Shatterpoint. I don't see the Emperor winning a straight up blade-to-blade fight.

However, Sidious is a considerably stronger Force user than Mace, and normally fights with a bigger dash of self preservations which contributes to cunning and effective (albeit a bit... cowardly?) tactics. I see him beating Mace overall. And, if not, Anakin will manhandle Vader long enough for them to annihilate Mace.

Originally posted by Gideon
Anakin is more agile and a much more capable lightsaber duelist than Vader is, and would very, very likely overwhelm him in a duel - unless Vader attempted to bring his superior command of the Force to bear against Anakin (which I doubt would happen, given Vader's tendancy to engage in lightsaber duels primarily before using the Force as a "last resort" measure - it was never his weapon of choice), and even then, Anakin's speed and ferocity would probably allow him to close the distance and turn it into a close-combat fight, which Vader wouldn't last long in.

Gideon i agree with you up to a certein point, Yes anakin would > vaders ass in saber combat, and vader wouldnt be stupid enough to go ahead and challenge anakin in a lightsaber match because he knows he will get his ass wiped. It is highly likely he would bring in the command of the force to destroy anakin rather than be a fool to grab a lightsaber and go ahead to face anakin.

He was once anakin, he knows he has no chance against his former self with the lightsaber dueling. And when he knows that, he goes ahead and kills his opponents with the force. One thing to clear up though. Vaders force powers ARE his weapons of choice, we see him do things like that so often in the EU like empire comics

Yeah, and since when was Vader strong enough in the force to be able to easily take out his younger self, without having to engage him in saber combat?

Anakin does things far more impressive with the force than Vader does, such as taking down that giant 100 (? ish) foot statue in the RotS videogame. What's Vader's greatest feat?

A lot of things. Don't get jollyjim to own your ass again with proof from comics and other things.

A better point, Sith'ari, would be Anakin yelling and collapsing a roof (which nearly killed Count Dooku, if I remember correctly). I don't think what he did in the video game was canon.

Well I would have listed that, but that was an uncontrolled use of the force, he can't actively do that kind of stuff in a battle scenario, whereas the thing he did in the game was quite controlled. And I'm pretty sure it's canon, Advent checked up on it at SW.com, and it seems to be valid.

Big deal, size matters not if i recall.

And by the way, canon? i dont think so,the ROTS game strays from the movie greatly, when did anakin ever beat mace in a duel? and when did anakin ever get into a fight before he slaughtered the CIS council? And why did anakin stab instead of behead vount dooku? Btw, the game is full of shit, how the hell can even vader summon lightning? It contradicts every source and it contradicts the movie, And since it contradicts the movie it should be refuted as non-canon as you are so damm fond of speaking of, Sith'ari


Vader has acomplished far more, killing some one a long distance away, taking down tanks the size of an AT-AT, using an entirewaterfall to drown a jedi and he killed 30-40 rebel soldiers in eaw with a simple force wave.

Face it The sithari, you obviously hate vader alot because acstyles pwned you in the vader vs bane thread where he proved vader > bane in saber combat.

Again sith'ari, vader is 80% as powerful as the emperor. His power on the force is obviously powerful enough to surpase every PT character save for mace windu and yoda. Claiming vader is weak would make sidious look weak but only slightly stronger

Originally posted by Kadesh
Big deal, size matters not if i recall.

Size does matter, Yoda's full of shit. Unless it's more, or as impressive to pick up an apple and throw it compared to picking up something like an X-Wing.



I also didn't think so previously either before a month or so ago, due to things such as what you list below, however, I researched what I've written previously, and proven otherwise. It is canon, things that are a clear contradiction or for gameplay alone (such as the Force lightning) aren't valid, albeit. Although, what Anakin did with the statue doesn't provide any inconsistencies, from what I gather, so it would thusly be canon. The following two statements are where the conclusion of the Episode III video game being canon is made absolute:

Originally posted by Advent
Leland Chee states as much:

""...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it."

-- Leland Chee, Holocron Continuity database, January 24, 2004


In the same thread, I believe on page 67, Leland Chee also states this in regards to the game's continuity errors:

"Jocasta Nu and Serra Keto deaths are continuity; Cin Drallig's is not (he doesn't even wear the same costume as he does in the movie) nor are any other discpencies between the game and the movie. Some of the "deleted scene" levels from the Trade Federation cruiser levels might fit in. Obviously, the alternate ending is non-continuity."

So, it's quite apparent that if Serra Keto and Jocastu Nu's demises in the game follow continuity, then the game - as a whole - is canon. Anything that doesn't contradict the movie, other materials, or is considered gameplay is non-canon, everything else isn't labeled as such.

Everything you've state below is already addressed with this, so I'm not going to write a response to something unwarranted of one.



"Refuted"? That word doesn't really even make sense in the context of what you meant it as, lol. Perhaps you meant "regarded"?

As for the actual point, contradictions are dealt with case by case to ensure that inconsistencies made by "C"-canon material isn't automatically regarded as a pile of shit, and completely "N"-canon. That usage is always in effect.

Splinter of the Mind's Eye contradicts on a few levels, yet overall it is still canon, same with things like LoE and the Clone Wars microseries, or the novelizations.


Originally posted by Kadesh
Big deal, size matters not if i recall.

I lol'd at that one.

By the way, where does Darth Vader actually do this? Quote, source, and page number. If it's a game, it can be said it's merely gameplay, and since it's not definitive, the feat is irrelevant.

Originally posted by The Sith'ari
Yeah, and since when was Vader strong enough in the force to be able to easily take out his younger self, without having to engage him in saber combat?

Anakin does things far more impressive with the force than Vader does, such as taking down that giant 100 (? ish) foot statue in the RotS videogame. What's Vader's greatest feat?

The thing is that the ROTS game is 100% uncanon. It is completely off from the movies and cannot be used as a source in an argument.

Anyway, I can see Vader taking Anakin in a fight through heavy use of the Force and the fact that his suit is lightsaber resistent, giving him an extra advantage. Mace and Sidious fight for a long time. Mace would lose to Sidious in a full on fight after a time, but it would be a very long time, longer than it will take for Vader to take out Anakin. With Vader's help, Sidious goes down.

Glentract, no offence, but I'm not seeing Vader take Anakin. Advent's gonna come here any time and crush that argument with her "Anakin-Can-Beat-Vader" bag of tricks, and it's the truth.

Likewise, if Sidious fights against Mace like he did against Yoda... it's not going to be that long of a fight.

Well, I don't imagine Sidious having a bunch of Senate Pods to through at Mace and we've already seen that Mace can defend himself from Sidious' lightning. And if you take the ROTS novel as canon, which appears to me to have become the general mindset, the following quotes support Mace being able to handle Sidious for a very long time, if not defeat him. p.330 - "There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow ; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office."

I'll tackle Advent's arguments on Vader when I see them.

The setting of the fight has not been specified; for all you know, it could be. However, if you'd like to go to the novelization, I would like to point out that your point of "Mace being able to handle Sidious's lightning" is rendered useless as I seem to recall Mace yelling out: "Anakin, he's too strong for me!" during the whole lightning shebang. Then, I'd like to point out Sidious's inferior position, the fact that Mace himself was obviously struggling, and that Sidious "feigned weakness" - meaning he could have kept it up if he chose to do so. The only one who was truly weak in that situation was Mace.

Likewise, that was when Mace submerged himself into Vaapad. The first part of the duel was Sidious dominating the fight. He drove Mace back into the main office (despite Mace's well known aggressive and offensive style of fighting) and the rest of the fight went back and forth.

I agree; Mace + Vaapad + Shatterpoint = Sidious losing in a lightsaber fight. But that he was nearly able to overpower Mace despite an inferior position and being fried in the face would simply to imply that the Force gap between them is considerable, whereas the novelization seemed to indicate that their raw bladework seemed was even so much as it "could go on forever - if Vaapad weren't Mace's only gift."

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/436149_3-darth-vader-runs-the-gauntlet

6th post down might help.

Anyway, I'll agree that on paper, it may seem like Anakin has a slight edge over Vader, when you take into account all their powers and skill, but, then again, on paper, Anakin would crush Obi Wan into the ground... fast.
What gave Obi the win, then? He knew Anakin, much like Vader does. They both know his strengths and weaknesses. They both know what he is capable of with the force and with a saber. They are both level-headed, while Anakin is brash and arrogant.
Considering the fact that Vader knows everything about Anakin, and, has shown superior force powers, and could use them as a method to take Anakin out, I'd say Vader after a tough fight. He is smart enough to use the force against him.

If Mace can survive long enough against Sidious (he has a good chance, seeing as Sidious tends to take some time to seek out an advantage, and Vader is using the force to overwhelm Anakin, something that might take less time than a lightsaber battle would), then Sidious is double-teamed an loses.

Close fight, though.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The thing is that the ROTS game is 100% uncanon.

Hey, Glentract, can you read? I know you're supposedly some 1337 math whiz kid, but are you that blind that you cannot see what I've written above your post?

Originally posted by Advent
I also didn't think so previously either before a month or so ago, due to things such as what you list below, however, I researched what I've written previously, and proven otherwise. It is canon, things that are a clear contradiction or for gameplay alone (such as the Force lightning) aren't valid, albeit. Although, what Anakin did with the statue doesn't provide any inconsistencies, from what I gather, so it would thusly be canon. The following two statements are where the conclusion of the Episode III video game being canon is made absolute:



In the same thread, I believe on page 67, Leland Chee also states this in regards to the game's continuity errors:

"Jocasta Nu and Serra Keto deaths are continuity; Cin Drallig's is not (he doesn't even wear the same costume as he does in the movie) nor are any other discpencies between the game and the movie. Some of the "deleted scene" levels from the Trade Federation cruiser levels might fit in. Obviously, the alternate ending is non-continuity."

So, it's quite apparent that if Serra Keto and Jocastu Nu's demises in the game follow continuity, then the game - as a whole - is canon. Anything that doesn't contradict the movie, other materials, or is considered gameplay is non-canon, everything else isn't labeled as such.

The Episode III game is canon, try again.



"Tackle"? Don't kid yourself, son.

Well that's a bit harsh (I know ur some math wiz....), but Advent's argument is correct Glentract.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=078
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=079

The tree pretty much trumps the statue.

Not really, the density of the concrete looking statue would be undoubtedly much greater than the tree's.

Edit - Wait, hold up, i looked at it properly and all he does is cut the tree down...

Post a pic of the statue, it's been awile since I've played the game but I'm confidently sure it wasn't near the size of the tree.

No, he cut a peice the pushed the rest down, and considering how big the tree was and how small the slash was, t wasn't a very large cut.

Does it matter, all he does is cut the tree down, this isn't even a usage of force power which I was originally looking for. I mean seriously, give me a lightsaber, and I could probably cut down that tree, how is this impressive at all?

Ok, ignore those last two posts, I wasn't looking properly, it's pretty late over here in London.

edit

I also didn't think so previously either before a month or so ago, due to things such as what you list below, however, I researched what I've written previously, and proven otherwise. It is canon, things that are a clear contradiction or for gameplay alone (such as the Force lightning) aren't valid, albeit. Although, what Anakin did with the statue doesn't provide any inconsistencies, from what I gather, so it would thusly be canon. The following two statements are where the conclusion of the Episode III video game being canon is made absolute:



In the same thread, I believe on page 67, Leland Chee also states this in regards to the game's continuity errors:

"Jocasta Nu and Serra Keto deaths are continuity; Cin Drallig's is not (he doesn't even wear the same costume as he does in the movie) nor are any other discpencies between the game and the movie. Some of the "deleted scene" levels from the Trade Federation cruiser levels might fit in. Obviously, the alternate ending is non-continuity."

So, it's quite apparent that if Serra Keto and Jocastu Nu's demises in the game follow continuity, then the game - as a whole - is canon. Anything that doesn't contradict the movie, other materials, or is considered gameplay is non-canon, everything else isn't labeled as such.

How exactly does that make the entire game canon? All the quote says is that two particular deaths are canon and makes no mention to the rest of the game. On what other occasion has Anakin ever displayed Force powers on that scale? If it's an isolated occurence, it's VERY likely that it's an inconsistency. Anyway, as AC said, the tree basically trumps the statue and Vader, not Anakin, is the one with the tree feat.

"Tackle"? Don't kid yourself, son.

Post your reasons and lets see how it goes.

Edit

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
How exactly does that make the entire game canon?

Overall, it is canon. If you don't know how it makes it as such, then I'd suggest you work on your comprehension. Contradictions are dealt with as they arise, and case by case to ensure C-level material is still considered to be a part of continuity. Leland Chee has stated such, and that usage is always in effect.

Therefore,

Whatever inconsistencies with the movie and the game (or even other materials) are non-canon, but anything otherwise is canon. Jocastu Nu's death makes that obvious, if it were "100% non-canon" as you wrongfully stated, then neither of the two's death from the game would be considered correct, hun.

So, like I said, try again.



1. Those two particular deaths prove the fact that the game isn't non-canon at all (which was your original statement), because they cannot be consistent if the game itself is "N"-canon, as their deaths are made no mention of anywhere else, from what I know.

2. Leland Chee clearly explains that anything that contradicts from the movies, or other material for all material is dealt with case by case, and games are "C"-canon.

I'm basically parroting the point at the top, but point is: you're wrong.



"But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it. "Dooku!" he howled. With such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse."

-- Labyrinth of Evil, Chapter 41 (?), written by James Luceno.

Where does it state he has to have done it before? Oh? Nowhere? Don't be ridiculous, Glentract.



No, it's not "very likely", let alone likely at all.



What's your point exactly? Do I even give a shit?



My thoughts on the matter only go so far as to say that Anakin would mop the floor with Darth Vader in lightsaber combat, not necessarily with the Force, as you seem to think I'm saying.

If you want me to post them, I'll just quote myself.

Well it's not like he hasn't done anything ons that scale with the force before as Advent pointed out, and there's also a perfectly logical explanation for his sudden increase in power: his turning to the darkside, so it's definitely not an inconsistency.

And about the tree (ignore what I said yesterday, I only skim read through the comic), I really don't see how you can consider what Vader did as more impressive than what Anakin did.

1. In the RotS game, Anakin actually completely takes the statue down with the force, here Vader actually cuts the tree first, and while it's falling down, he accelerates its fall with the force.

2. I see no proof that the tree was even any bigger than the statue in the RotS game was.

3. You can't deny that the density for the statue would have been much greater than the tree.

No, I think what Anakin did is definitely more impressive.

Well it's not like he hasn't done anything ons that scale with the force before as Advent pointed out, and there's also a perfectly logical explanation for his sudden increase in power: his turning to the darkside, so it's definitely not an inconsistency.

Um didnt it take him time to even lift it up while vader could destroy the tree with the force quickly and use it to crush the dark lady, Big deal, anakin lifted a statue which another jedi can counter with TK, And vader? isnt he stronger in the force that anakin? O yes i think he would pretty much counter that. Again it takes a matter of time for anakin to lift the statue and yet get it into position to throw it at his opponents. That leaves him open to attacks

And about the tree (ignore what I said yesterday, I only skim read through the comic), I really don't see how you can consider what Vader did as more impressive than what Anakin did.

But i can, considering how big the diameter of the tree is and he merely cut part of the tree with only half of his lightsaber, remember, he didnt purposely cut the tree, he tried to hit the dark woman and he missed, he overpowerd some one far faster and far more agile than he was.

1. In the RotS game, Anakin actually completely takes the statue down with the force, here Vader actually cuts the tree first, and while it's falling down, he accelerates its fall with the force.

Liar, i have the book, you dont, the tree was cut and then he clenches his fist to break the tree apart and pounded the dark woman. Obviosly you can see in the picture the tree was merely wounded by vaders slash and it began to fall when he clenched his fist . Again he didnt purposely wound the tree, he missed as i said,

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1822/aassgc3.png

You can obviously see how big the tree is, when it collapsed on her, you cant even see her at all considering the size of the tree. And you can see the impact, how great it is and considering the fact that only Huge objects can cause this kind of impact when hitting the ground

2. I see no proof that the tree was even any bigger than the statue in the RotS game was.

It actually is from my point of view, we couldnt even see the entire tree at all from top to the bottom

3. You can't deny that the density for the statue would have been much greater than the tree.

Does it matter at all which has higher density?The impact the tree made is greater than what happened to the statue, And again, For an impact like that to happen, it takes an extremely huge object

No, I think what Anakin did is definitely more impressive.

Actually vader did things more impressive than anakin did with the force, 2 feats of anakin doing something isnt greater than the dozens of things vader could do to his opponents, Even the games show what he is capable of with his powers .

Sith'ari, you just hate vader alot because acstyles proved that he pwned your "precious" bane in the other thread.

That tree is at least 40 feet tall....

40 feet is like what 12-13 meters? No GK, the tree was alot larger, we didnt even see the entire tree vertically

Probably is, I am only giving the bare minimum.

Judging from the size of the trunk i can assume the tree is tall . just see how big in diameter its trunk is, its height must be proportional

I seriously am tired of the fact Anakin brought down a building with his anger being a feat...It only shows his utter stupidity and lack of skill. He's got more natural ability than brains by 200%.

Yoda: Powerful you are in The FOrce, Anakin.
Anakin: Argh!
*they fight for a good long time*
Anakin: Yoda!!! *the ground cracks beneath them and Yoda leaps to safety while Anakin falls to his death*

It's basically what happened with the building. Through his truly awe-inspiring use of The Force, Anakin buried himself and let the wise and experienced Dooku escape because Dooku was capable of dodging Anakin's random acts of stupidity.

To be fair, Nikkolas, the last time I checked, Dooku lamented that it was, pretty much, a close call. But I haven't held LoE in my hands.

Kadesh, in the game, the statue is HUGE. If i could find a pic I'd post it, but a portion of the head alone, dwarfed Anakin/Vader and he pulled it down alone, killed several Jedi that way, and threw the head portion through a wall hard as shit. And in comparison to the previous scenes in the game, where OB1 had trouble holding a door open by himself, i'd say its pretty impressive. And the point he meant about density (i think) was the fact that the statue was MUCH heavier and thusly harder to move. That being said, I still believe Vader to have a much stronger command over the force and is in much more control.

Post a pic please, I honestly can't remember how tall it was.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/436149_3-darth-vader-runs-the-gauntlet

6th post down might help.

Anyway, I'll agree that on paper, it may seem like Anakin has a slight edge over Vader, when you take into account all their powers and skill, but, then again, on paper, Anakin would crush Obi Wan into the ground... fast.
What gave Obi the win, then? He knew Anakin, much like Vader does. They both know his strengths and weaknesses. They both know what he is capable of with the force and with a saber. They are both level-headed, while Anakin is brash and arrogant.
Considering the fact that Vader knows everything about Anakin, and, has shown superior force powers, and could use them as a method to take Anakin out, I'd say Vader after a tough fight. He is smart enough to use the force against him.

If Mace can survive long enough against Sidious (he has a good chance, seeing as Sidious tends to take some time to seek out an advantage, and Vader is using the force to overwhelm Anakin, something that might take less time than a lightsaber battle would), then Sidious is double-teamed an loses.

Close fight, though.

Does anyone agree, or, at least have anything to say to this?

I still don't think Vader has shown superior force powers. Quality > Quantity, and I haven't seen him do anything above what Anakin did in RotS.

Originally posted by The Sith'ari
I still don't think Vader has shown superior force powers. Quality > Quantity, and I haven't seen him do anything above what Anakin did in RotS.

That's your opinion, but, I think he has. At least Vader has far better force displays than Obi Wan, who still beat him, due to knowing all about him. Vader has that same advantage, only, more so, seeing as how Anakin knows nothing of Vader, and, Vader knows, well, everything about Anakin. Vader is also more calm and tactical, which, against a hot-head like Anakin, will help a lot.

The way I see it, Darth Vader is nowhere near as skilled as either of the RotS duo are. Knowing everything about the way Anakin fights (does he even have as good a memory as that?) wouldn't be enough, he'd be up against someone who is pretty much more skilled than him in every way.

And what would possess you to make such a claim?

Vader possesses twenty years more experience in the Force - specifically the Dark Side. He's spent those decades also actively hunting down renegades and Jedi Knights who managed to survive Order 66. His lightsaber prowess is not on the level of his RotS self, certainly not, but he is still formidable in that area. However, in Force prowess? It is a ridiculous assertion to think otherwise. He has more experience and much more control over the Force than what he had before, and he has likely mastered many more techniques than Anakin did. The obvious mental advantage is in Vader's court, as he applies tactics to his duels - and he is very much willing to use the Force when necessary (and he has Sidious's knack of manipulating his environment to his advantage).

It depends on the situation. Anakin will indeed curbstomp Vader if it ends up in a lightsaber duel. If he can make the distance and cross blades with Vader, his grace, agility, speed, and technique will give him a comfortable edge over Vader and let him win. However, should Vader decide to use the Force - he has an excellent chance of winning.

I am putting my money on Anakin, though. But not by a lot. Likewise, if Sidious has killed Mace, it won't really matter.

By watching them both in action, and considering their feats. Anakin is more skilled in every single aspect; strength with the force, speed, agility, stamina, physical strength etc.



Considering these statistics is great and all, but you have to realise that they don't always give an absolute indication as to your argument. Regarding feats is a much more reliable way to gauge someone's power than simply basing estimations off of in-absolute statistics.



Hardly, he fights like an old man.







I know what you are trying to say here, but what you've just written doesn't actually make sense. Since when did tactics and willing-nous to use the force factor in on mental advantage? Though I will say that one thing Vader has over Anakin is a proper fighting mind-frame.



I'm not seeing it...

That is because your bias, planet, you obviously hate vader.

Vader > anakin in strength, RODV proved this

Gideon is pretty much right, vader would go down in a lightsaber duel because he is not as fast and agile, but didnt he take down people far faster than he was?

If it comes to the force, the majority proves vader > anakin execept for vader-haters like you.

Watching such things with a predisposed verdict on the situation (bias) is irrelevent. Speed, agility, and stamina? Yes, Anakin is superior to Vader in these three aspects. Physical strength? No. Vader's cyber implants give him a constant state of superhuman strength beyond the occasional burst of physical ability that Anakin gets - and, really, that is an excellent example of bias. Strength with the Force? His potential has been reduced - but his control and experience has increased by far.



Please. The twenty years of studying the dark side of the Force is proof in itself as well as his active state in combat as far as Jedi are concerned. He spearheaded the purge which put him in single combat against Jedi. Attempting to refute that does nothing but underline the "bias" in your posts.



An old man with considerable experience, superhuman strength, and cyborg-implants that allow him to withstand outrageous amounts of punishment, and 80% of the strength of the most powerful Sith Lord.

I

Amazing. Since when did tactical skills and experience and eagerness to use one's advantage not give someone a mental advantage?



I don't expect you to.

Actually gideon, if you had read RODV, palpatine stated that vaders limitations are psychological and not physical, that if he shakes loose his doubts, The incredible power that he once could have got of begin twice as powerful as sidious would re-awaken

sith power resides in the will, not flesh

And darth sion pretty much proves palpatines quote.

And by the OT, he pretty much got rid of some of these doubts thus becoming stronger with experience, skill and knowledge of the dark side of the force. Wasnt vader 80% of ROTJ sidious who is like what stronger than ROTS sidious? That would make vader 90-95% of ROTS sidious?
Sidious did grow in power, eaw and foc backs this up big time

According to tESB's commentary, Lucas said that Vader "lost his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor" hence why he needs Luke. So, Sidious was wrong.

Planet...you're the one who said strength in the force (raw power) means nothing in regards to combat prowess, now because Anakin has the strongest potential or connection, he is above Vader?? WTF is that? You say Kas'Im spent decades training with a saber which makes him uber, right? Well Vader spent decades training and mastering the darkside of the force from the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived. Does that mean that he's uber? No, because Lucas understands that making force gods and then putting them in the movies is retarded.

Also, up until you started salivating over Bane "pulling a moon out of orbit", you always stated that feat wars mean nothing when debating over who is more powerful and will win in a fight, now that it's against Vader, you think feats are a good way to judge the victor in a battle.

But in comparison to one another, here's one for you:

Anakin was choking the shit out of Padme, a woman, and concentrating extremely hard, and couldn't even kill her.

Vader would call up guys on other ships from incredible distances away, and killed them quickly while talking to others and not dedicating all his focus on them.
Obviously, Vader has the advantage in the force department. Also, at the time of the Mustafar duel, we don't know what percentage of Sidious Anakin was, but it's doubtful he was already 80% of him, while we KNOW that Vader was.

Physical strength...have we seen Anakin pick a man up by his throat with one hand and throw him away like a doll? No, what have we seen Anakin do to display physical strength? What, carry OB1 on his back? Whoopdi doo, he did a fireman's carry on a 175lb man (give or take).

Escape wasn't saying that a mind state and willingness to use the force gives you a mental advantage, just...an advantage, and then his next sentence was just simply stating that Vader also has the mental advantage, which he does. There's a lot of ways that Vader could win, even getting Anakin really shook in a lightsaber duel could give him an opportunity to capitalize and defeat Anakin, although unlikely.

Where does Vader "fight like an Old Man" in EU or any descriptions of his fights? He always seems to have a lot of style, speed, and strength when in lightsaber combat ( Comics ,novels (Especially RODV), and in the movie scripts he is described as having "lightning movement"s). Sure, he's slow in Episode IV, but is that where you're getting that from?
Need I remind you that Mace's fight with Sidious was significantly slower than Vaders fight with Luke? Does that mean that both Mace and Sidious suck in saber combat?! No. Why? Things like the novels explain what happen. It has further actual explanations, that aren't your opinion. Stated facts > your opinion. So, don't try to pull that around here.

Originally posted by Gideon
According to tESB's commentary, Lucas said that Vader "lost his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor" hence why he needs Luke. So, Sidious was wrong. That doesnt disprove palpatines quote, Vader doesnt realise palpatines statement, and did you see the word If ? That means by the OT he still havnt got rid of his doubts thus remaining 80%. Palpatine was only implying IF he had shaken his doubts which he didnt of course. Losing something doesnt mean you cant regain it provided you know what to do.

Originally posted by Kadesh
That doesnt disprove palpatines quote, Vader doesnt realise palpatines statement, and did you see the word If ? That means by the OT he still havnt got rid of his doubts thus remaining 80%. Palpatine was only implying IF he had shaken his doubts which he didnt of course. Losing something doesnt mean you cant regain it provided you know what to do.

No.

It does. If Vader possessed the ability - regardless of his doubts or mental handicaps - he would not have needed Luke and Lucas would not have made that remark.

Lucas said that Vader didn't have the power to become stronger than Sidious. He lost that ability on Mustafar, and the very fact that RoDV concludes with Sidious intent on securing "another apprentice" ought to clue you in on the fact that his previous assessment of Vader was proven wrong.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

It does. If Vader possessed the ability - regardless of his doubts or mental handicaps - he would not have needed Luke and Lucas would not have made that remark.

Lucas said that Vader didn't have the power to become stronger than Sidious. He lost that ability on Mustafar, and the very fact that RoDV concludes with Sidious intent on securing "another apprentice" ought to clue you in on the fact that his previous assessment of Vader was proven wrong.

1. He would have needed luke because he did not know he had that ability, again several sith lords proved palpatines quote. Btw, did lucas even know what was written in RODV? Did he even care most importantly. And rodv came out quite some time after ROTS

2. Sidious needed to look for another apprentice because he already know that vader will never be able to shake lose his doubts, That was why he needed another one more powerful than vader

By the way, the commentary you mentioned he made in TESB, was it before ROTS? Or was it after? I need to know then i might concede all my points of this issue

Kadesh, Lucas doesn't need to base his opinions around the Expanded Universe novels. They are required to base the novels around his design. He said on the tESB commentary that "Vader lost his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor." That fact has been highlighted not only in the commentary, but in various interviews. Lucas, the highest authority in the canon tree, says that Vader did not possess the ability to become stronger than the Emperor - meaning that he did not have it. If all he had to do was "shake his doubts" then he still had the ability to do so - which contradicts Lucas's statements - which makes Sidious (who, for all his genius and experience), ultimately, a third party character whose opinions do not and cannot stand in the face of a higher canon authority such as Lucas. So, in conclusion, Vader did not have the power to become stronger than the Emperor - regardless if his "doubts" were gone.

Then i concede my points.

Isn't Vader, hypothetically, like 90-95% of ROTS Sidious..? It is a point to consider, statistically.

i think so, considering the fact that the quote was refering to ROTJ sidious who became alot stronger than his ROTS self as FOC proves and backs up

Originally posted by Advent
My thoughts on the matter only go so far as to say that Anakin would mop the floor with Darth Vader in lightsaber combat, not necessarily with the Force, as you seem to think I'm saying.

If you want me to post them, I'll just quote myself.

That's what I'm asking. Go ahead and quote yourself.