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I'm on a roll today with Philosophy and Religion. You should see my Omniverse thread.

I'm not discrediting the great discoveries made by humanity. But have you consider that maybe God allows this to happen so that we can think more and expand our minds?

Maybe we're not suppose to worship him. Maybe we should be philosophy him.

What we have discover up to now is incredible vast. But who is to say what we won't discover in the future?

God wants us to learn rather than worship?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm on a roll today with Philosophy and Religion. You should see my Omniverse thread.

I'm not discrediting the great discoveries made by humanity. But have you consider that maybe God allows this to happen so that we can think more and expand our minds?

Maybe we're not suppose to worship him. Maybe we should be philosophy him.

What we have discover up to now is incredible vast. But who is to say what we won't discover in the future?

God wants us to learn rather than worship? What would you base such a theory on?

Originally posted by Bardock42
What would you base such a theory on?

Our natural desire to learn.

We don't act just on instict...but also on learning. We like to know things. So we learn about them.

God prolly gave us the curiousity gene. DNA encode all that stuff...

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm on a roll today with Philosophy and Religion. You should see my Omniverse thread.

I'm not discrediting the great discoveries made by humanity. But have you consider that maybe God allows this to happen so that we can think more and expand our minds?

Maybe we're not suppose to worship him. Maybe we should be philosophy him.

What we have discover up to now is incredible vast. But who is to say what we won't discover in the future?

God wants us to learn rather than worship?


I think he wants us to learn about him. And learning about him means worshiping him, more so in the sense of fellowship or friendship, rather than bowing down to him every minute of the day. I think this is because he himself considers us objects of his love, and he wants us to project the same type of love back at him.

So I believe he truly wants to be our friend and a loving father to us. But still even in sharing this fellowship with him, I believe we as his children should respect him and love him like we would our parents, since..well..erm..he is both of our parents.

My two cents. Or maybe three.

Originally posted by Thundar
I think he wants us to learn about him. And learning about him means worshiping him, more so in the sense of fellowship or friendship, rather than bowing down to him every minute of the day. I think this is because he himself considers us objects of his love, and he wants us to project the same type of love back at him.

So I believe he truly wants to be our friend and a loving father to us. But still even in sharing this fellowship with him, I believe we as his children should respect him and love him like we would our parents, since..well..erm..he is both of our parents.

My two cents. Or maybe three.

And maybe that is why he expands his creation in the natural sense of the word. We can know the creator throught the creation?

I like this...

The Bible ecourages learning, though it considers Godly wisdom more important. Nature is one way to learn about the creator, many consider the atom evidence of God's perfection and order. However, I know that learning does not take the place of worship, both are needed, though one might argue that learning can be form of worship (and I would agree), but prayer is also needed. That would be very similar to Calvin's argument that work is a form of worship, but prayer is still vital.

Learning can be very advantageous, but I think it would mean nothing to God if we did not apply what we learn.

i like the idea that we were put here to accomplish things. its a positive and proactive outlook on the meaning of the human condition. far better than the idea that our purpose of existance is nothing more than to beg and grovel before god, live by a specific set of morals and...well thats that.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
And maybe that is why he expands his creation in the natural sense of the word. We can know the creator throught the creation?

I like this...

Thanks. I believe he expands his creation in a natural sense. But I don't think he does it exclusively through evolution or anything if that's what you're implying. Darwinian and Neo-Darwinian theories don't seem like very loving systems to me, so I don't believe God used evolution in the 'macro' sense to create us, nor does the bible allude to nor state to him doing this in a natural sense.

I still think God works logically and naturally with his creation though, seeing as he is not a control freak-power hungry God, and likes to see things happen in a gradual fashion, with as minimal guidance and control as possible, if of course the situation allows such to be possible.

Most of the animals we see today are the result of some form of adaptation which exists because of this minimal guidance. This is with the exclusion of man of course, who is an entirely unique creation and not an animal, being created in the image of God himself.

I must admit I get very frustrated when I see people following these theories, as they are really just disrespecting and greatly admonishing the loving gifts of knowledge that God has freely given to man.

Hehe, that thread title made me think of Descartes

Originally posted by Strangelove
Hehe, that thread title made me think of Descartes

Really?

It reminded me of Galileo.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm on a roll today with Philosophy and Religion. You should see my Omniverse thread.

I'm not discrediting the great discoveries made by humanity. But have you consider that maybe God allows this to happen so that we can think more and expand our minds?

Maybe we're not suppose to worship him. Maybe we should be philosophy him.

What we have discover up to now is incredible vast. But who is to say what we won't discover in the future?

God wants us to learn rather than worship?

I think you are on the right track, however, I don't believe God wants.

Originally posted by PVS
i like the idea that we were put here to accomplish things. its a positive and proactive outlook on the meaning of the human condition. far better than the idea that our purpose of existance is nothing more than to beg and grovel before god, live by a specific set of morals and...well thats that.
I'm not sure who teaches the last part...

Ohhhhh quite bragging......

I do believe that IS why we're all here matter of fact...And this would explain our constant need for new knowledge not being satisfied with what we already have. Maybe we are too the point where, if this is true, then possibly our seeking would be met with abundant knowing...A gift given, like from god........this way people can make fun of us......

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm not discrediting the great discoveries made by humanity. But have you consider that maybe God allows this to happen so that we can think more and expand our minds?

This suggests that all the time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears people expend in improving themselves and in improving the lives of those around them are ultimately wasted because the outcome will be determined by God, regardless of what we do.

Originally posted by Storm
This suggests that all the time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears people expend in improving themselves and in improving the lives of those around them are ultimately wasted because the outcome will be determined by God, regardless of what we do.

But in a way that's the general rule of learning. Isn't the goal of an educator to teach the student to know? All the effort and other stuff comes within the individual. The educator provides the information to be learn. It's up to the student to learn it. Once the student achieves that goal he becomes an educator...thus the new educator goes on to teach other students.

I don't see how you can call it a waste when it fact it's process in reaching knowledge and passing it to others. It would be a waste if the student decides NOT to take the lessons provided by the educator.

Survival is the lesson we learn.

You can always learn stuff on your own. But guidance is always a secure form of education.

That may be why people find themselves repeating the same lessons over and over again until they learn it.........hmm

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You can always learn stuff on your own. But guidance is always a secure form of education.

When you say "guidance", what are you talking about?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
But in a way that's the general rule of learning. Isn't the goal of an educator to teach the student to know? All the effort and other stuff comes within the individual. The educator provides the information to be learn. It's up to the student to learn it. Once the student achieves that goal he becomes an educator...thus the new educator goes on to teach other students.

I don't see how you can call it a waste when it fact it's process in reaching knowledge and passing it to others. It would be a waste if the student decides NOT to take the lessons provided by the educator.
You talked about how you don' t want to damage the great discoveries, but how God might allow it to happen. Unless God allows me to, I won' t reach my goals, regardless of all my efforts.

In order for such an educator to teach its students, must it not be omniscient?

"Study to show thyself approved."

The scripture is referencing the word of the Lord, but I think it's a fair bet to say that God wants us to expand our knowledge and understanding of ourselves, the world and all it's elements, and of our purpose in this life.


With such knowledge and understanding, we grow to appreciate even more His divine and loving nature, and the care He took to create us as the singularly intelligent, caring, dreaming beings on the planet that can fellowship with Him.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
"Study to show thyself approved."

The scripture is referencing the word of the Lord, but I think it's a fair bet to say that God wants us to expand our knowledge and understanding of ourselves, the world and all it's elements, and of our purpose in this life.


With such knowledge and understanding, we grow to appreciate even more His divine and loving nature, and the care He took to create us as the singularly intelligent, caring, dreaming beings on the planet that can fellowship with Him.

If that was true, why did god make humans so much just like animals?

Originally posted by Storm
You talked about how you don' t want to damage the great discoveries, but how God might allow it to happen. Unless God allows me to, I won' t reach my goals, regardless of all my efforts.

In order for such an educator to teach its students, must it not be omniscient?

Fair question, however, if the purpose of God's plan is for us to learn. Are we not doing it so by indulging in this topic? When you said "I won't reach my goals" you're putting limits into yourself. Why would there be limits? As far as I understand we are the ones that put limits into thinking. This is why I beg the question "maybe God wants us to think." A discovery isn't something that just pop out nowhere. It's always there...just waiting for us to discover.

Omniscience is the Teacher's (i.e. God) attribute. Our attribute is that we're beings capable of reasoning. I would think the teacher has no need to learn. But rather prefers that we learn the lessons. So that the teacher can finally reason with the student.



Guidance in learning. We all need to guide ourselves into understanding and reasoning.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
...Guidance in learning. We all need to guide ourselves into understanding and reasoning.

OK, I thought you where talking about some kind of external guidance.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If that was true, why did god make humans so much just like animals?

Are you talking about how we invented airplanes, paint the Sistine Chapel, or have the congnitive reason to debate our own existence?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Are you talking about how we invented airplanes, paint the Sistine Chapel, or have the congnitive reason to debate our own existence?

No, I'm talking about important things like, the way my eye is very much like eyes of other animals. Or I have a heart, just like other animals. I have DNA, just like other animals.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, I'm talking about important things like, the way my eye is very much like eyes of other animals. Or I have a heart, just like other animals. I have DNA, just like other animals.

Indeed, how you have similar physical parts (at least in basic physical things like having an eye or a heart) shows a similar maker.

But it's our reason, dreams, aspirations, and expression of those three things that seperates us from common animals. The comparison of man and animal, while ignoring this obvious truth is folly.



Back on topic: Yes. God intended for us to think, reason, and more importantly better ourselves through learning.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Indeed, how you have similar physical parts (at least in basic physical things like having an eye or a heart) shows a similar maker.

But it's our reason, dreams, aspirations, and expression of those three things that seperates us from common animals. The comparison of man and animal, while ignoring this obvious truth is folly.



Back on topic: Yes. God intended for us to think, reason, and more importantly better ourselves through learning.

Those are all superficial, and I am on topic. I don't think any god wants us to think harder. We are just animals, nothing more. If some god wanted us to think harder, wouldn't that god have wanted all animals to think harder?

Just because I ask hard questions is no reason to be dismissive.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Those are all superficial, and I am on topic. I don't think any god wants us to think harder. We are just animals, nothing more. If some god wanted us to think harder, wouldn't that god have wanted all animals to think harder?

Just because I ask hard questions is no reason to be dismissive.

Actually I think a dream, idea, or hope is rather intangible and deeply personal and unique. How you could say such things are "superficial" is a little confusing.

I am dismissive because you make a stupid assessment: that people "are just animals, nothing more."

Even an evolutionist would be able to tell you that the fundamental difference between other mammals and human beings is reason, emotion, dreams, ideas to better ourselves, and the dedication to pursue such ideas.

(of course how, when, and why a primate or a cougar would be able to develop such things is of course a mystery to them still, but I digress...)

The point is that there is indeed a distinction between people and animals, in fact the very conversation about the nature of God (or whether or not there is a god) and his intent for us to learn should be a simple and obvious example of how much more advanced and complex a human being is to any other animal.

And as a Buddhist, do you really believe that an animal can experience whatever higher power that you do?




Are you trying to provoke here, Shaky?

That seems out of character for you. The point of the thread is whether or not God wants us to learn. You can say yes or no and give reasons if you want to be part of the discussion.

(If you believe that there is no god, then you assume that there is for the sake of the topic and give reasons to support whatever conclusion you come to think that this god "would want, were it real"

You can pop in and say that there is no point because there is no god, but to continue to hold that course and derail the thread is rather trollish.

There are different ways to develop yourself spiritually I think. Through knowledge, devotion, or action. There are many people who are used to devotion, but there are other ways too.

Thats what is told in hinduism. The yogas are the different ways to develop yourself spiritually. There is the Jnana yoga which is spirituality through knowlegde basically. Bhakti yoga which is devotion, and karma yoga which is action... and some other forms.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
There are different ways to develop yourself spiritually I think. Through knowledge, devotion, or action. There are many people who are used to devotion, but there are other ways too.

Thats what is told in hinduism. The yogas are the different ways to develop yourself spiritually. There is the Jnana yoga which is spirituality through knowlegde basically. Bhakti yoga which is devotion, and karma yoga which is action... and some other forms.

Can you tell me the difference between spiritual development and any other kind of development?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you tell me the difference between spiritual development and any other kind of development?

Mmmm... good question. I think all development is spiritual in someway I guess. Maybe there is only one type of development.

Well there is that one verse that says "Come let us reason together", so god must want us to think! Science is always thinking and many condemn them for doing so, even making it a sin. Look at Galileo thrown in person for thinking outside the book. One day science might just uncover the whole truth.

Speaking of Galileo . . .

But I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.

Maybe He wants us to think better, leaving "harder" for something else. renske

What kind of smilie is that......

OK, think better of all things and procreate....

Originally posted by debbiejo
What kind of smilie is that......

OK, think better of all things and procreate....

Pssssst We are talking about god wanting us to think harder; get with it Deb...

Shut up......

LOL........I made my comment there Mr. Buddah..

I think that if God . . . like wanted us . . . to like . . . ya know . . . think about stuff or something . . . he'd of been like . . . . . . . . . . . .

*falls off chair*

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think that if God . . . like wanted us . . . to like . . . ya know . . . think about stuff or something . . . he'd of been like . . . . . . . . . . . .

*falls off chair*

Originally posted by Storm
You talked about how you don' t want to damage the great discoveries, but how God might allow it to happen. Unless God allows me to, I won' t reach my goals, regardless of all my efforts.

In order for such an educator to teach its students, must it not be omniscient?



That's assuming that God is even infinite, omniscient, all-powerful, etc.


What if God was limitted in power and knowledge ? What if God needed to learn just as badly as we did ? What if this universe is simply his or her experiment, that he or she is still learning from ?




What if the Universe is simply a speck or cell of a much larger and greater existance?



I beleive that If God existed as a person, then he, she, or it must learn the same way we must learn.