Good is a point of view Anakin...wow!

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General G
I just realised the relevance of this! A mass murderer, lets use Hitler (being I am really getting into World War 2 now) as an example. By performing the Holocaust, he thought he was doing the world a favour, thus being the good guy, while the majority of the world thought he was doing wrong and the Allies were the good guys. Sidious thought that destroying the Republic and the Jedi was him being the good guy! And that the Sith were good! While the Jedi thought the complete opposite! So how do we decide who is "good" and who is truly "bad"?

Schecter
we go to the philosophy forum and debate the topic in the 300+ already existing threads concerning it stick out tongue

General G
Really? Damn, and here I thought I came across something groundbreaking sad

queeq
I doubt Palpy ever thought he was doing the universe any good... only himself.

General G
Which was still good. wink

Schecter
true.

queeq
Can't beat that.

General G
But he still thought he was doing good.

EPIIIBITES
Good isn't a point of view..I hope you're not basing your philosophical ideals off a movie...

There was nothing "good" about Hitler...whether he thought he was doing good, or whether you're giving him the benefit of the doubt in not being able to prove he was actually evil, at the end of the day the guy would gas people and stick people in ovens...he was sub-human.

And even in Star Wars, Palps wasn't the kind of Dooku-esque character that was stuck on some moral divide...he was just plain evil and he knew it.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Good isn't a point of view..I hope you're not basing your philosophical ideals off a movie...

There was nothing "good" about Hitler...whether he thought he was doing good, or whether you're giving him the benefit of the doubt in not being able to prove he was actually evil, at the end of the day the guy would gas people and stick people in ovens...he was sub-human.

And even in Star Wars, Palps wasn't the kind of Dooku-esque character that was stuck on some moral divide...he was just plain evil and he knew it.

Aye, but to him evil WAS good.

It was his nature, what he liked, so to him it was good.


GL makes this clear in plenty of dvd extras and stuff, that even evil people believe what they are doing is good... even though it's not.

He's talking about Anakin, but still.

I think Palps honestly thought that things would be better if he just wiped the slate clean of Jedi, senators, trade federation, etc.....

And started a strict, regulated, and controlled system of government.

See Anakin's EPII dialogue: "The politicians should discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interest of all the people, and then do it." And Padme responds: "That's what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree." To which Anakin makes the very keen observation: "Well then they should be made to."

I think Palps thought very much along the same lines.


And it meant that his religious sect would get to destroy the rival religious sect in the process.

Score! stick out tongue

darthmaul1
Good is a point of view, I'm sure Hitler thought he was doing good and so did some of the people. The Taliban think theyare probably doing good.
But lets face it the only true good is being completely nice and not killing anyone. the good use knowledge and defence, never attack.

General G
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Aye, but to him evil WAS good.

It was his nature, what he liked, so to him it was good.


GL makes this clear in plenty of dvd extras and stuff, that even evil people believe what they are doing is good... even though it's not.

He's talking about Anakin, but still.

I think Palps honestly thought that things would be better if he just wiped the slate clean of Jedi, senators, trade federation, etc.....

And started a strict, regulated, and controlled system of government.

See Anakin's EPII dialogue: "The politicians should discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interest of all the people, and then do it." And Padme responds: "That's what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree." To which Anakin makes the very keen observation: "Well then they should be made to."

I think Palps thought very much along the same lines.


And it meant that his religious sect would get to destroy the rival religious sect in the process.

Score! stick out tongue

w00t

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Good is a point of view, I'm sure Hitler thought he was doing good and so did some of the people. The Taliban think theyare probably doing good.
But lets face it the only true good is being completely nice and not killing anyone. the good use knowledge and defence, never attack.

What makes that good though? That is just what has been forced upon us to think...

Schecter
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Good isn't a point of view..I hope you're not basing your philosophical ideals off a movie...

There was nothing "good" about Hitler...whether he thought he was doing good, or whether you're giving him the benefit of the doubt in not being able to prove he was actually evil, at the end of the day the guy would gas people and stick people in ovens...he was sub-human.

And even in Star Wars, Palps wasn't the kind of Dooku-esque character that was stuck on some moral divide...he was just plain evil and he knew it.

ok, now lets throw out the hitler yardstick..its so overused

General G
Good idea, bad example by me.

Schecter
no, its not a matter of sensativity or being offensive, we should speak frankly about what we wish.
what i meant before was, he's too much of an extreme and thus proves nothing.
the truth is that good/evil depend on one's point of view. in some cases,
what is evil is almost universally agreed upon (like hitler) , however
like i said its an extreme and only complicates the topic rather than proves anything.

General G
Alright, then Hitler is excluded. You made a good point with that.

But I still go with the fact that while we were young, our parents forced in a way, what is good and what is bad, if someone were raised the opposite way, thinking that what we thought was good was actually bad and vice versa, then he would think he was perfectly normal.

EDIT: you edited!

Ushgarak
Palpatine didn't think evil was a point of view, he just found that a very convenient argument to throw at Anakin (as it often is on philosophically soft people).

Palpatine is the pure and certain personification of "I'm evil and I love it."

Schecter
Originally posted by General G

EDIT: you edited!

embarrasment yeah i forget to finish the point sometimes whistle

Alliance
Originally posted by General G
I just realised the relevance of this! A mass murderer, lets use Hitler (being I am really getting into World War 2 now) as an example. By performing the Holocaust, he thought he was doing the world a favour, thus being the good guy, while the majority of the world thought he was doing wrong and the Allies were the good guys. Sidious thought that destroying the Republic and the Jedi was him being the good guy! And that the Sith were good! While the Jedi thought the complete opposite! So how do we decide who is "good" and who is truly "bad"?

Good is a point of view. Thats why perceptions of good and evil change.

EPIIIBITES
It's amazing how somewhow people are confusing "thinking that what you're doing is good" as being on par with actually "being good".

Palps wasn't good...that's why he's the "bad guy". And yes, Hitler wasn't good either. Why do you keep pulling out the "well, they thought they were doing good" card, as if that has any worth in the argument? What they did wasn't good!!!!

Good is not a point of view, fear does not necessarily lead to anger, and there IS a "try". It's just Star Wars people, it's not the final word!

wacko

Alliance
laughing out loud

Chill out man cool

EPIIIBITES
Ya, I thought that sounded kinda un-chill

I'm cool, I'm cool cool cool cool

I just worry when people suggest that there's actually something to be said about people who think what they're doing is ok becasue they see it as a good thing...that has no place in what's actually good and bad.

Schecter
evil often operates under the general assumption that the ends justify the means.

Alliance
Thats only if the ends are never reached. If they are reached, it becomes historical fact.

Tangible God
I was wondering when someone was gonna bring that up.

If Hitler won, then history would have favored the Allies as villains living in a corrupt, incompetent, genetically inferior, and all in all bad society.

Since we won, we tend to view Nazi society as wrong and evil. Conflicting preferences, but only one won out.

And since we all live in a society that defines evil the way we do, then from an outsider's POV, Palpatine is just Hitler on a much, much grander scale.

Schecter
Originally posted by Alliance
Thats only if the ends are never reached. If they are reached, it becomes historical fact.

i will not answer to you unless you eat your humble pie from another thread

Alliance
laughing out loud I keep threads seperate.

Schecter
i dont evil face



:edit" come on dude, dont make me be the bad guy

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/caribbean/wildlife-facts/2002/wildlife-facts_images_2002/crab.jpg
cathy the crab says "eat your humble pie alliance. yum yum"

evil face

ok ill stop

Alliance
Thats your problem then. smile

Schecter
very nice sig btw, i always admired your art






...but the avi's coming off as a bit......nevermind

Alliance
Thanks. smile Unfortunately, sigs aren't actually real artwork. I try to make them though.

Schecter
so yeah....the topic...evil.evil face



queeq should this be filed in the "does good and evil exist" graveyard that is the philosophy forum? evil face

Alliance
no, becuase its primarily SW.

Schecter
no, its primarily "is 'good' a point of view or absolute"
palpatine being a hypothetical model.













evil face

Alliance
And we've derailed it and made it another Alliacne vs Ush "what is Star Wars" thread.

Schecter
ill make a thread

Alliance
search before you make a duplicate.

Schecter
impossible

queeq
I hate this thread. But ush is right: Palps knew he was evil, that is clear from all his expressions, and he used his evil to get his way. He clearly says that he's out to make the Sith rule the universe and Sith only think about themselves. Ergo, case close.

Now, you can add SW related stuff to debate it. If it turns to points of view on good or evil I will close the thread on your OB1 butts.

Alliance
Its clear form his expressions?

The only thing that shows is that Lucas thinks Palps is evil.

Schecter
SW is based on the premise that the sith is the epitome of evil.
lucas clearly stated this many times. thats why its not really debatable.

queeq
Exactly. And yes, you can see by his expressions Palpy enjoys his evil nature. He's not out for a moral good, he's out for his personal gain and will kill, manipulate, destroy etc. anyone or anything to get it. heck, he even clones people. wink

General G
But with Palpatine...by doing what he is doing, taking over the galaxy...is he not doing that because he thinks it is the "good" thing to do?

Schecter
no, you dont fully understand.

palpatine is nothing more than a comical bad guy.
the evil villain who twirls his handlebar moustache while waiting
for the train to run over the damnsel that he tied to the tracks.
he laughs sinisterly simply because he knows what he is doing is
completely wrong and evil, and that is precisely why he's doing it.

...so you cannot debate this by comparing this fictional depiction of evil using
actual real-world concepts of evil, because its already been defined
by george lucas as just what i described. his very nature is to consume,
kill, and destroy everything in his path, simply for the joy of the
destruction and suffering he causes. same goes for palpatine

General G
So I made a pointless thread?

Schecter
Originally posted by General G
So I made a pointless thread?

i think "pointless" is a bit harsh.

its probably the most widely debated philosophical topic.
its just that in cases like this george lucas plays the role of 'dictator of reality'
when debating star wars, so his word is final.

General G
Alright, I don't see this thread really going anywhere else then...queeq can close if he wishes.

Schecter
i believe it could be a valid topic if it were to examine vader's pov, since he was not a comic book villain, but rather a tragic evil character

yettoh
well light and darkside darkside has hate in it which is abit evil but lightside has people talking about not feeling for others which is also abit evil in my opinion

General G
Alright, then perhaps this can go somewhere, no closing queeq!

yettoh
Originally posted by General G
Alright, then perhaps this can go somewhere, no closing queeq! gg is right this might go somewhere hopefully before flame wars about opinions start evil face evil face evil face seems lights got sum dark aspects and sarks got sum light aspects about em

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Schecter
i believe it could be a valid topic if it were to examine vader's pov, since he was not a comic book villain, but rather a tragic evil character

And it was Vader/Anakin that Lucas is talking about on the EpIII dvd bonus features (The Chosen One feauturette, specifically) where he says:

"Nobody who's evil thinks that they're evil. They think that what they are doing is good. Even though it's not."



So where does that leave us?

Ushgarak
Fairly boned as to progress.

And the Light Side does NOT say "Don't feel for otherts", geez. As Anakin explains, jedi are encouraged to love and cherish all life.

What is forbidden is attachment, and hence obsession.

queeq
And Lucas's statement was concerning Anakin. He very clearly chose the spectrum of good (i.e. Jedi) and evil (i.e. Sith) for Anakin to chose between. Palpy was plain evil and used Anakin's obsessions for his own gain.

yettoh
ahh i get it

queeq
Finally.

General G
I think I might get it. Getting confusing...

queeq
Hardly.

General G
Explain more clearer than please.

Schecter
'more clearly' stick out tongue

General G
What he said ^^^ big grin

queeq
Can't make it more clearly than it is: good is good, evil is evil, nothing in between.

Ganner Rhysode
Palpatine knew he was being evil though. Granted, characters acting like that don't so much exist in real life, but in Lucas' world, Palpatine is pure evil and does things regardless of his point of view, simply because he is evil.

The OTHER "bad guys" are debatable.

queeq
Nope.

General G
Originally posted by queeq
Can't make it more clearly than it is: good is good, evil is evil, nothing in between.

Vader is in between, he honest to god thinks he is doing good.

exanda kane
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Aye, but to him evil WAS good.

It was his nature, what he liked, so to him it was good.


GL makes this clear in plenty of dvd extras and stuff, that even evil people believe what they are doing is good... even though it's not.

He's talking about Anakin, but still.

I think Palps honestly thought that things would be better if he just wiped the slate clean of Jedi, senators, trade federation, etc.....

And started a strict, regulated, and controlled system of government.

See Anakin's EPII dialogue: "The politicians should discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interest of all the people, and then do it." And Padme responds: "That's what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree." To which Anakin makes the very keen observation: "Well then they should be made to."

I think Palps thought very much along the same lines.


And it meant that his religious sect would get to destroy the rival religious sect in the process.

Score! stick out tongue

Your just arguing semantics there.

exanda kane
Originally posted by General G
Vader is in between, he honest to god thinks he is doing good.

My suggestion is that he was simply confused. He knew he wasn't doing any good ("It's not the Jedi way"wink but he done it regardless, because in his mind it was necessary. That doesn't mean he is doing good by his own estimation, it does not mean he is doing good for the galaxy; he is simply doing it because he feels he has no other option. And I think one of the most potent scenes of Revenge of the Sith is the montage sequence right at the end, on the bridge of the Star Destroyer, and the silence indicates a deep regret from inside the suit for his actions. But what can he do now? What other option does he have?

queeq
Vader was not in between: he was good and then chose for evil.

General G
For what he thought was the greater good.

Count Makashi
Yea, but i think that deep dawn he knew, that what he was doing was wrong.

General G
Well, then he didn't look there very often.

Count Makashi
Yea, but he was redeemable, as he proved in ROTJ, Sidious wasn't at all.

General G
Because he finally realised that what he was doing wasn't really good.

Count Makashi
I think deep down he always knew that, but he was convincing himself, that what he was dong was for greater good.

General G
He never showed it then.

Count Makashi
I never said that he did, i think that he thought, that he has done to much evil. to come back to the light.

General G
It's an understandable thought for him, especially for what he had done.

Count Makashi
Yup, to bad Dooku never redeemed himself, tham it.

General G
He wouldn't have done much anyways.

Count Makashi
Just for the sake of it, i hope, one day we get to see in EU, how Yoda or Qui-Gon redeems Dooku in death and brings him back to the light.

General G
He is dead...he will never come back...it would not be worth the money for that...

Count Makashi
It would, it would be the best novel about SW.

General G
Nope, in my book collection, it would have to be either Rise of Darth Vader or Path of Destruction. what do you know? None with Dooku! big grin

queeq
No EU.

General G
My bad.

queeq
Np

General G
Good, back to the topic shal we?

queeq
Yes, Good is the topic.

General G
What is good then?

Count Makashi
Good is a point of view. stick out tongue

General G
lol

Very good answer.

queeq
No, it's not. Not in SW.

General G
Yes it is!

queeq
No it isn't. What do you know? You're a clone, you just follow orders.

General G
We prefer the term "droid"

I am a self thinking droid, I was qutie expensive, but I assure you, it was well worth the price.

Count Makashi
Yea, you make good coffee.

queeq
Expensive? You're a mass product, made by the tens of thousands.

General G
I am one in 3 million droids! They only made a select few of us.

Count Makashi
A select few of coffee makers, i can believe that, Gunray needs his cup of coffee in the morning, unless he is biter.

Alliance
Originally posted by queeq
Expensive? You're a mass product, made by the tens of thousands.

laughing out loud

Waste of cheap metal...

queeq
CLones are a mass product too.

General G
Originally posted by Alliance
laughing out loud

Waste of cheap metal...

I could say the same to you guys.131

queeq
laughing out loud

Count Makashi
Clones wore intelligent, they could do stuff on their own, while droids needed to wait for orders and Clones are more superior to the droids, they won the war after all.

queeq
Still, clones did as they were told.

Alliance
No more than any other soldier. erm

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Alliance
No more than any other soldier. erm

Acutally a little more, as they were genetically engineered to take any order without question, being totally obedient and less independent than the original host, Jango Fett.


Also, when describing Boba, Lama Su says that he wasn't tampered with to make him "docile"... so yeah, the clones are slightly more obedient than most solidiers would be.

smart

Alliance
Anad there were also other clones that were genetically engineered to be more independant, supersoldiers.

General G
Same with the CIS, and plus, what more do you need then: "see an enemy, take it out" especially when you have superior numbers?

sithsaber408
Getting back on the original topic for a second here:


"In the end I wanted people (to see) that Palpatine was really doing what was right from his point of view. That's what's important. As a Buddist, I could never condemn the actions of any of the Sith, particularly (Darth Sidious). That's why at the end of the Saga, Palpatine is ultimately saved by Vader from himself"

-George Lucas, Cinemafreak Magazine, Issue 12, Page 32

General G
Further proving the point of "Good being a point of view."

Alliance
Too bad Lucas actually has trouble putting that on film.

he needs my help sly

Honestly the STORY is there, it simply remains unexecuted.

General G
You would think that a director like him would be able to get it done.

If he had your help, every scene, there would be a clone doing something.

Alliance
Nah... I love em to death but they have their place in the Saga.

I would have devoted much more time to Anakin's fall and to how the war corrupts the Jedi order, which thankfully would include more clones, or at least properly portrayed ones.

If I ever finish m goddamn redo of the PT, you will see what i see...and hopefully people will respond to my ideas.

General G
George definately should have spent more time on those eras, instead going for corny love scenes...

Yeah, we are still waiting for that...

Alliance
Hell, it may be years. I'm gonna try to get some serious work done on it this weekend.

queeq
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Getting back on the original topic for a second here:


"In the end I wanted people (to see) that Palpatine was really doing what was right from his point of view. That's what's important. As a Buddist, I could never condemn the actions of any of the Sith, particularly (Darth Sidious). That's why at the end of the Saga, Palpatine is ultimately saved by Vader from himself"

-George Lucas, Cinemafreak Magazine, Issue 12, Page 32

Now I know who wrote Ob1's 'point of view' lines in ROTJ.

Schecter
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Getting back on the original topic for a second here:


"In the end I wanted people (to see) that Palpatine was really doing what was right from his point of view. That's what's important. As a Buddist, I could never condemn the actions of any of the Sith, particularly (Darth Sidious). That's why at the end of the Saga, Palpatine is ultimately saved by Vader from himself"

-George Lucas, Cinemafreak Magazine, Issue 12, Page 32

hmmmmm....so it was buddhism that ****ed up star wars and turned it lame

queeq
Indeed.

General G
It wasn't really lame, that is a bad word for it.

Alliance
If you consider coffee-shop Buddhism, Buddhism.

General G
What is "coffee-shop buddhism?"

Alliance
Buddhism that doesn't actually involve the religion. The sort of New Age crap that people actually think is Buddhism, like meditation and peace and flowers and unicorns.

General G
lol

Alright, I know what you mean now, sadly I know some...

Alliance
Don't we all.

General G
Are you a buddhist?

sithsaber408
Originally posted by Schecter
hmmmmm....so it was buddhism that ****ed up star wars and turned it lame Originally posted by queeq
Indeed.

Aye, when it was cut-and-dried, black and white, good v.s. evil Christian based mythology, we had a great set of films.


stick out tongue

General G
sick

Schecter
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Aye, when it was cut-and-dried, black and white, good v.s. evil Christian based mythology, we had a great set of films.


stick out tongue

at least its good for something

sithsaber408
Yeah, yeah, I'll go hide my religion back under a rock now.

(good thing it's my rock.) wink

Anyways, I was just kidding.

There's a slight influence of Christianity on the OT, but not much.

Palps was always evil, until Lucas got a new religion.

General G
What was the christianity in it?

Alliance
That whole "chosen one"/ virgin birth crap.

Count Makashi
So Anakin is Jesus, just more muscular.

queeq
Hold on, it was MYTHOLOGY... not christianity or buddhism... Buddhism is more about sitting underneath a tree waiting for enlightenment to strike. Where does that happen in SW?
Plus Karma is important there, Lucas made a saga about CHOICE! The man contradicts himself... or he doesn't understand buddhism.

DARTH DADDY
If you believe "good is a point of view" then you can't say bad is wrong, or Hitler was bad or wrong because you already state that it's just an opinion and all opinions are "OK". If anyone truly believes that "good is a point of view" then you can't get mad at the VT killer cause he was doing what he thought was right or good. You have to have something objective to hold good to, it can't be subjective. When it comes down to it, really we are all bad, there is no one here on this earth that is good. "There is none righteous, no not one." We can only look to the cross and the empty tomb and accept Him as our Lord and Savior. Then when we are judged those who have been born again will live with Him forever.

Alliance

Alliance
Originally posted by DARTH DADDY
If you believe "good is a point of view" then you can't say bad is wrong, or Hitler was bad or wrong because you already state that it's just an opinion and all opinions are "OK". If anyone truly believes that "good is a point of view" then you can't get mad at the VT killer cause he was doing what he thought was right or good. You have to have something objective to hold good to, it can't be subjective. When it comes down to it, really we are all bad, there is no one here on this earth that is good. "There is none righteous, no not one." We can only look to the cross and the empty tomb and accept Him as our Lord and Savior. Then when we are judged those who have been born again will live with Him forever.

The Christian apolgeitcs aren't useful.

That aside, people can only define right and wrong in hindsight, once they can determine the consequences of their action. When in the process of completing an action, all you have is your own biased point of view.

queeq
The Jedi are buddhist like, I agree there. But the saga is not, because it's all about achieving something actively.

But even buddhism uses good and evil in the sense that everything that distracts you from your path to enlightenment is bad. So yes, philosophy and/or religion give denominators for what is right and wrong. Without, everything is subject to individual assesment and causes less and less social cohesion. In other words, if everyone does what is right in his own eyes, you get a mess.
Most films, books and other kinds of stories usually show you the consequences of particular choices. SW does that too, so you can LEARN what is right and wrong. If you use your own views on what is right and wrong (like Ghandi did and Hitler did) we always have to wait for the outcome. And when is that? When someone is dead and gone???
I mean, take people like Mao Tse Tung and Che Guevara... we see them more and more appearing on t-shirts and coffee mugs, as if these were such great examples? Both of them used death and/or internment in camps as a way to get rid of their oppositions. Great and wonderful freedom fighters... NOT!

Alliance
Considering the Jedi are the protagonists of the saga...if we are rooting for Buddhists, how can we not be supporting them.

As far as moral relativism. EDUCATED people can try to predict the consequences of your actions. If I am Hitler, I doubt that executing 11 millino Jews, homosexuals, intellecutal, gypsies, communists, et al. will really bring real benfits to society. i can't give you a definate point for when it is ok to look back and evaluate your decision, because there is no fixed one.


Hell, the US used interment camps to imprison its own citizens. Clearly right and wrong aren't so closely associated with specific figures.

queeq
Absolutely not... So what is? What would be considered the moral right and wrong? In SW it's represented by the Jedi as priests of the Light Side. It's quite clear where things start to slip. Anakin is disobedient and goes out to slaughter Tuskens... yet Padme seems to argue taht it's allright.... I found that strange, but it was definately wrong and see where he ended up.

DARTH DADDY
So then you can't say that murder is wrong ahead of time, you can only say that after someone has committed murder? So we could not have said that killing 32 students at a college wasn't wrong ahead of time? We can only say that afterwards? And yes, I would agree that mans views are useless, but fortunately we have 66 books that have been proven trustworthy since they were inspired from God himself.

Alliance
Originally posted by queeq
Absolutely not... So what is? What would be considered the moral right and wrong? In SW it's represented by the Jedi as priests of the Light Side. In the OT, not in the PT

Alliance
Originally posted by DARTH DADDY
So then you can't say that murder is wrong ahead of time, you can only say that after someone has committed murder? So we could not have said that killing 32 students at a college wasn't wrong ahead of time? We can only say that afterwards? And yes, I would agree that mans views are useless, but fortunately we have 66 books that have been proven trustworthy since they were inspired from God himself.

Christian apologetics arent useful. Try thinking instead. And thats the crappiest defenition of "proof" I've ever heard.

We cannont definatively know ahead of time. People who think can think ahead to what probable reults thier actions may take. Murder is probably not a good idea, because it all likelyhood, its not going to have a positive result.

queeq
Most science and philosphy in Europe sprang forth from religion. So how can you say believers don't think. It requires a LOT of thinking because you can't always stick to your own feelings an experiences. It's philosophy and religion that place your personal small world in a bigger perspective. People only thinking from their own perspective are narrowminded and start saying things that religious people don't think.

Alliance
Well, if I had said "believers don't think" maybe you'd have a point.

And despite the fact that most science and philosophy sprang from religion in Europe, they survived by distancing themselves from it.

queeq
Originally posted by Alliance
Christian apologetics arent useful. Try thinking instead.

What does that suggest then? For Christian apologetics you actually need to think.

Besides, during the Middle Ages the Church also used a lot of science from the Near East. So it was also heavily influenced by Near Eastern astronomy and other sciences. That kinda spanned a very large part of the civilised world at the time.

EPIIIBITES
Aaaargh!!!

Every time I see this thread title in the forum I hear Palpatine's voice in my head saying..."Good is a point of view Anakin" in that quirky way he does.



EDIT:...and now...everytime you see it from now on, it's gonna be in your head! laughing


WOOOOO-HOOO-HOO-HAAA-HAA-HAA!!!

DARTH DADDY
Some of the most brilliant minds in science have been Christians. Sure there are many professed Christians who have not used their God given brains and have done some stupid things. When put under a microscope, the Bible has been proven over and over again to be historically correct. Many have gone out to prove that the Bible is not accurate but in the end have become Christians themselves because of the vast evidence out there.

Alliance
Originally posted by DARTH DADDY
Some of the most brilliant minds in science have been Christians. Sure there are many professed Christians who have not used their God given brains and have done some stupid things. When put under a microscope, the Bible has been proven over and over again to be historically correct. Many have gone out to prove that the Bible is not accurate but in the end have become Christians themselves because of the vast evidence out there.

This isn't even Star Wars any more. Take it out of here.Originally posted by queeq
What does that suggest then? For Christian apologetics you actually need to think. It suggests that endlessly stating "well the Bible says this" is not helping the discussion. Thinking critically would be helpful as opposed to mindless droning. There is a differnece between a scientist who is religoius, and using religion as science.

There is a difference between thinking logically while religious and using religious logic. The latter, unfortunately, was what was presented here and invokes no thought.

Originally posted by queeq
Besides, during the Middle Ages the Church also used a lot of science from the Near East. So it was also heavily influenced by Near Eastern astronomy and other sciences. That kinda spanned a very large part of the civilised world at the time.

I am a history of science major. I know quite a bit about the relationship of science and religion. I assure you this is a subject I have coverd in depth.

The Islamic Empire is where all the real science happened during the early middle ages. The ancient sources and those of Islamic scientists were reintroduced into the the, rather ignorant, Western world. Thier "rediscovery" (they were so bad many of the texts that were origianlly in Latin and were lost had to be retranscribed from their Eastern Greek counterparts) triggered the Italian and then European Renaissances.

Then there was the Moral Crisis. From that point on, religious science and logic were doomed. However, none of that is relvant.

EPIIIBITES
Originally posted by DARTH DADDY
When put under a microscope, the Bible has been proven over and over again to be historically correct.
This thread's goin' a bit off topic but I can't resist...

Pretty much most leading bible scholars, and even the Catholic church now agree that Genesis 1-11 and what is says about creation is metaphorical. It was done it much a similar way that cultures from that time told creation legends...with metaphor. God didn't create the world in "7 days"...and he didn't create woman from "Adams rib".

And I gotta say that it's not a requitement to believe every word of the bible to consider yourself a Christian.

Originally posted by DARTH DADDY
Many have gone out to prove that the Bible is not accurate but in the end have become Christians themselves because of the vast evidence out there.
And many haven't...plus, it's not the evidence that made them Christians...it was their faith, regardless of how much and how good the evidence each of them found was.

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