god-man quiz!!!

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AngryManatee
based on the information below, who's life is this describing?

Conception: By a virgin.
Mother: Meri.
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph).
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent.
Birth heralded by:The morning star.
Birth announcement: By angels.
Birth witnesses: Shepherds.
Age at rite of passage ritual: 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Age at baptism: 30.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded.
Result of temptation: Resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power."
Transfigured: On a mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount.
Method of death: By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves.
Burial: In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

debbiejo
Oh oh oh.........I know. Osiris Dionysus! No no it's Mithra....wait, Horus...

What do I win?

mr.smiley
It's all of them!
Don't forget Dionysus also turned water into wine!

debbiejo
And the halos they all wore halos related to the SUN! They're all the Sun god.

Well some of the Medieval ones were painted with halos.

FeceMan
Mithra, amirite or amirite?

Devil King
Originally posted by FeceMan
Mithra, amirite or amirite?

George W Bush: Great President or the Greatest President?

debbiejo

lord xyz
Originally posted by AngryManatee
based on the information below, who's life is this describing?

Conception: By a virgin.
Mother: Meri.
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph).
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent.
Birth heralded by:The morning star.
Birth announcement: By angels.
Birth witnesses: Shepherds.
Age at rite of passage ritual: 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Age at baptism: 30.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded.
Result of temptation: Resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power."
Transfigured: On a mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount.
Method of death: By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves.
Burial: In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Jesus?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Devil King
George W Bush: Great President or the Greatest President?
http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/media/bush%20finger.jpg

GO DUBYA!

Symmetric Chaos
Macduff?

Nellinator
Originally posted by AngryManatee
based on the information below, who's life is this describing?

Conception: By a virgin.
Mother: Meri.
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph).
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent.
Birth heralded by:The morning star.
Birth announcement: By angels.
Birth witnesses: Shepherds.
Age at rite of passage ritual: 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Age at baptism: 30.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded.
Result of temptation: Resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power."
Transfigured: On a mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount.
Method of death: By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves.
Burial: In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
Hmmm....

Mother: Meri? Not Mithras, not Osiris, not Horus, must be a misspelling of the most common name in Roman Israel, Mary.

Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). Those names do not translate as such. Add to that that Seb isn't even a person in Egyptian mythology. However, Joseph is the father of Jesus.

Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Joseph's line does not validate Jesus because of the Jehokiam problem, so it is of little importance, Jesus's royal descent is from Mary.

Birth heralded by:The morning star. Don't know, not Jesus.

Birth announcement: By angels. Jesus.

Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Jesus.

Age at rite of passage ritual: 12. Not Horus, not Mithras, not Osiris, not Dionysus, not Jesus.

Break in life history: Not Horus, not Mithras, not Osiris, not Dionysus, not Jesus.

Age at baptism: 30. Not Horus, not Osiris, not Mithras. Jesus and Dionysus were both baptized, however, Dionysus was baptized with air from a fan and baptism is an ancient Jewish practice.

Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Yah, John the Baptist was beheaded, Dionysus's wasn't.

Close followers: Twelve disciples. Horus had sixteen at one point, Jesus had twelve though, so I'm going with Jesus.

Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Not Horus, not Mithras, not Osiris, not Dionysus, but Jesus did.

Method of death: By crucifixion. Not Horus, not Mithras, not Osiris, not Dionysus, think I throw in that Krishna wasn't either, but Jesus did.

Accompanied by: Two thieves. Not Jesus, he likely had four. Besides that none of the other people did either...

Transfigured: On a mountain. Moses, Elijah, and Jesus are the only ones to have ever been transfigured because as you may notice, the event is entirely different here than anything else in other religions.

Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Out of Jesus, Mithras, Horus, and Dionysus, Jesus is the only one that died, Osiris died, but he remained dead. There is no record of Krishna ever being resurrected unless you count later incarnations.

Resurrection announced by: Women. Jesus.

Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Not Horus, not Mithras, not Osiris, not Dionysus, but Revelations says something to the effect that Jesus will.


Conclusion: this accurately describes nobody.

mr.smiley
It was actualy the Magi who witnessed the birth of Jesus.The Magi were followers of Mithras.Mithras birth was also witnessed by three shepherds

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
Conclusion: this accurately describes nobody.

Actually it describes me pretty well erm

NOW KNEEL BEFORE ME FOOL!!!!!!!!

debbiejo
Here is a great site on Horus.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by debbiejo
Here is a great site on Horus.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

ReligiousTolerance.org haermm

Cool site though.

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
Here is a great site on Horus.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm HAHAHAHA!! They site Massey as the main source, no wonder you believe this crap. Massey has been proven wrong time and again.

First thing first, Horus is not even supposed to be born of a virgin. A relief of his conception shows Isis in falcon form hovering over the penis of old dead Osiris and no legend ever states that is was a virgin birth.

Father? Sorry, but Osiris had other sons from my understanding.

Royal descent? Wow, he must be the ultimate parallel thumb down I'm descended from royalty too, maybe I'm the second coming thumb down

Mother: Meri, actually no (this is stretching considering Isis is the mother and Meri means beloved as in Osiris's beloved), but that is inconsequential considering that they do not transliterate as such and Mary was such a common name that this is negligible.

Cave/Stable: Ummm no, Horus came from an egg, the rest is fabrication.

Annunciation: sorry but this is simply a lie because Horus's birth wasn't annunciated by anyone in Egyptian mythology. Even better is that there is no such thing as angels in Egyptian mythology.

Birth heralded by: Jesus wasn't heralded by a star = fail.

Birthdate: Jesus wasn't born on December 25 and nobody claims otherwise, so this is an automatic fail.

Birth announcement: straight lie, Horus's birth wasn't announced in Egyptian mythology.

Birth witnesses: Horus's birth wasn't witness in Egyptian mythology.

Later witnesses: once again, a lie, besides that, there isn't a specified number of wise men in the Bible so this goes to crap anyways.

Death threat during infancy: Alright, we now have two similar, although this a false change in names because it was Seth that went after Horus and Herut is made up to sound like Herod.

Handling in threat: Not sure about this one, all give it three though.

Rite of passage: these aren't even similar, besides that Horus was an adult at this point and it wasn't a rite of passage.

Age of Ritual: not cited for Horus because it isn't given.

No data between 12&30: invalid see above and two below.

Baptism location: Horus wasn't baptized, closest you'll get in Egyptian mythology is him getting thrown into some water... not nearly the same thing. Eridanus is the modern name of a constellation called "the river." It's Latin.

Age of Baptism: no age given because he wasn't baptized... someone should burn Massey's work because this is getting ridiculous.

Baptized by: wasn't baptized and Anup the Baptizer isn't a name that appears anywhere in Egyptian mythology... hehe Massey made it up that devilish little prankster...

Fate of baptizer: ...there wasn't one

Temptation/Result of temptation: another pure fabrication. There is a good story about Horus being tempted though which I will post for Kali... Horus succumbed to the temptation of his uncle, Seth (in a homosexual affair.) Horus later gets back at him by seducing him (another homosexual affair) and getting Seth pregnant.

Close followers: Horus had 16 close followers and they weren't anything like the disciples = fail.

Activities: actually no, there is absolutely no record of this... it's another of Massey's fabrications.

Horus raised Osiris from the grave: No Isis did = fail.

Location: there is no resurrection rites for Horus because he never died. And the words don't transliterate like that = fail.

Origin of name Lazarus: can you say stretch? Better yet, can you say "they do not transliterate like that".

Transfigured: Horus was not transfigured = fail.

Sermon of the Mount: Horus never did = fail.

Method of death: this is sad and laughable considering crucifixion was a Roman thing. Now what came first? Rome of Egypt? Even better is the fact that in Egyptian mythology Horus doesn't die.

Accompanied by: He never died, besides that, there might have been four thieves on Calvary with Jesus.

Burial: Horus never died = fail.

Fate after death: see above.

Resurrection announced by: see above

Future: No, Horus was the embodiment of the reigning Pharoah, and he has no prescribed future plans anything like this = fail.

And then I found this at the bottom of the page anyways...

"Ward Gasque, a volunteer book reviewer for Amazon.com surveyed twenty contemporary Egyptologists. He asked them about the origins of Jesus' name, the relationship between Horus and Jesus, whether both experienced a virgin birth, and whether the Egyptian religion considered Hourus to be an incarnation of God.

Ten responded, They agreed:
- Jesus' name is a Greek form of a very common Semitic name Jeshu'a, which is normally translated into English as Joshua.
- There is no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, that he had twelve disciples, or that he was considered incarnation of God."

Now please, never bring something as amateur and retarded as this to my attention again. Also, give up on the idea that they are even remotely similar. The summary of their similarities is that they were both descended of royalty and had death threats against them. This simply isn't even an argument. See Kali? These are the sort of things that piss me off, this sort of absolute retardation.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually it describes me pretty well erm

NOW KNEEL BEFORE ME FOOL!!!!!!!! Sorry, my bad.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by Nellinator
HAHAHAHA!! They site Massey as the main source, no wonder you believe this crap. Massey has been proven wrong time and again.

First thing first, Horus is not even supposed to be born of a virgin. A relief of his conception shows Isis in falcon form hovering over the penis of old dead Osiris and no legend ever states that is was a virgin birth.

Father? Sorry, but Osiris had other sons from my understanding.

Royal descent? Wow, he must be the ultimate parallel thumb down I'm descended from royalty too, maybe I'm the second coming thumb down

Mother: Meri, actually no (this is stretching considering Isis is the mother and Meri means beloved as in Osiris's beloved), but that is inconsequential considering that they do not transliterate as such and Mary was such a common name that this is negligible.

Cave/Stable: Ummm no, Horus came from an egg, the rest is fabrication.

Annunciation: sorry but this is simply a lie because Horus's birth wasn't annunciated by anyone in Egyptian mythology. Even better is that there is no such thing as angels in Egyptian mythology.

Birth heralded by: Jesus wasn't heralded by a star = fail.

Birthdate: Jesus wasn't born on December 25 and nobody claims otherwise, so this is an automatic fail.

Birth announcement: straight lie, Horus's birth wasn't announced in Egyptian mythology.

Birth witnesses: Horus's birth wasn't witness in Egyptian mythology.

Later witnesses: once again, a lie, besides that, there isn't a specified number of wise men in the Bible so this goes to crap anyways.

Death threat during infancy: Alright, we now have two similar, although this a false change in names because it was Seth that went after Horus and Herut is made up to sound like Herod.

Handling in threat: Not sure about this one, all give it three though.

Rite of passage: these aren't even similar, besides that Horus was an adult at this point and it wasn't a rite of passage.

Age of Ritual: not cited for Horus because it isn't given.

No data between 12&30: invalid see above and two below.

Baptism location: Horus wasn't baptized, closest you'll get in Egyptian mythology is him getting thrown into some water... not nearly the same thing. Eridanus is the modern name of a constellation called "the river." It's Latin.

Age of Baptism: no age given because he wasn't baptized... someone should burn Massey's work because this is getting ridiculous.

Baptized by: wasn't baptized and Anup the Baptizer isn't a name that appears anywhere in Egyptian mythology... hehe Massey made it up that devilish little prankster...

Fate of baptizer: ...there wasn't one

Temptation/Result of temptation: another pure fabrication. There is a good story about Horus being tempted though which I will post for Kali... Horus succumbed to the temptation of his uncle, Seth (in a homosexual affair.) Horus later gets back at him by seducing him (another homosexual affair) and getting Seth pregnant.

Close followers: Horus had 16 close followers and they weren't anything like the disciples = fail.

Activities: actually no, there is absolutely no record of this... it's another of Massey's fabrications.

Horus raised Osiris from the grave: No Isis did = fail.

Location: there is no resurrection rites for Horus because he never died. And the words don't transliterate like that = fail.

Origin of name Lazarus: can you say stretch? Better yet, can you say "they do not transliterate like that".

Transfigured: Horus was not transfigured = fail.

Sermon of the Mount: Horus never did = fail.

Method of death: this is sad and laughable considering crucifixion was a Roman thing. Now what came first? Rome of Egypt? Even better is the fact that in Egyptian mythology Horus doesn't die.

Accompanied by: He never died, besides that, there might have been four thieves on Calvary with Jesus.

Burial: Horus never died = fail.

Fate after death: see above.

Resurrection announced by: see above

Future: No, Horus was the embodiment of the reigning Pharoah, and he has no prescribed future plans anything like this = fail.

And then I found this at the bottom of the page anyways...

"Ward Gasque, a volunteer book reviewer for Amazon.com surveyed twenty contemporary Egyptologists. He asked them about the origins of Jesus' name, the relationship between Horus and Jesus, whether both experienced a virgin birth, and whether the Egyptian religion considered Hourus to be an incarnation of God.

Ten responded, They agreed:
- Jesus' name is a Greek form of a very common Semitic name Jeshu'a, which is normally translated into English as Joshua.
- There is no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, that he had twelve disciples, or that he was considered incarnation of God."

Now please, never bring something as amateur and retarded as this to my attention again. Also, give up on the idea that they are even remotely similar. The summary of their similarities is that they were both descended of royalty and had death threats against them. This simply isn't even an argument. See Kali? These are the sort of things that piss me off, this sort of absolute retardation.

The dispute on Jesus birthday came down between two dates.January 6th and December 25th.January 6th was the birth date of Aion.December 25th was celebrated as the birthday of Mithras.Both were once dates for the winter solstice.This lead mythologist Joseph Campbell to the conclusion that Jesus was actualy a sun god and that John the baptist was a water god,due to the fact he was born during the summer solstice.This gives explanation to the passage John gives us:

He must grow greater,I must become less.John 3 v 30

I'm not sure what you were getting act on the birthdate of Jesus but I thought I would point this out.

debbiejo
Well also much of the Bible is based on the stars, astrology which at one time was considered a science. The year of the fish blah blah blah..In fact in the OT how the tabernacle was set up falls into that category of Sun worship. And that would also explain that Bible passage in Ecc. "The Sun of Righteousness."

Nellinator
Originally posted by mr.smiley
The dispute on Jesus birthday came down between two dates.January 6th and December 25th.January 6th was the birth date of Aion.December 25th was celebrated as the birthday of Mithras.Both were once dates for the winter solstice.This lead mythologist Joseph Campbell to the conclusion that Jesus was actualy a sun god and that John the baptist was a water god,due to the fact he was born during the summer solstice.This gives explanation to the passage John gives us:

He must grow greater,I must become less.John 3 v 30

I'm not sure what you were getting act on the birthdate of Jesus but I thought I would point this out. What I am saying is that the birthdate of Christ is never stated and nothing we have today can ever let us determine that. The birthdate that we celebrate the birth of Jesus on was indeed done to replace some of the pagan festivals on those days, however, the actual date of Jesus's is never claimed to actually have been on any of the those dates. It's really inconsequential. And that Joseph Campbell is an idiot if he really thinks that because John the Baptist is even more established in history as having existed than Jesus. There roles are actually quite clear and have been known since the beginning of Christianity.

That verse has plently of explanation to it, more without that explanation. It is well known to be a continuation of the common theme of humbleness in the NT.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well also much of the Bible is based on the stars, astrology which at one time was considered a science. The year of the fish blah blah blah..In fact in the OT how the tabernacle was set up falls into that category of Sun worship. And that would also explain that Bible passage in Ecc. "The Sun of Righteousness." Actually that's in Malachi and you have ripped a phrase, not even a full verse, from its context. Nice try though.

Yes, stars are connected to the OT, whoop-de-do, however, it is not astrology, nor is it ever used as such in any Jewish tradition that I can think of (maybe Kabbalists, but I haven't checked). Numbers are also used, however they aren't very significant, nor are they used in any blasphemous way.

And no, the tabernacle does not fall under the category of sun worship on the basis that the sun is not worshipped in any way in Biblical tradition, or even in any Hebrew oral tradition. Connections to solar bodies are astronomical not astrological.

mr.smiley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

This is the wikipedia page for Joseph Campbell.You can find plenty of other sites on him,but I would read some of this before you call him an idiot.His work on mythology had inspired a lot of people.


On Astrology.(i'm refering,in part to the New Testiment)

It is belived the 12 disciples of Jesus was symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel.But many scholars belive the twelve tribes are symbolic of the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

In the foot note of the Jesus Mysteries pg 265 119 we are told

The Jewish Menorah was taken over from Babylonian depictions of the "seven lights"-the sun,moon,and five visible planets.Babylonian astrology swept Greece and Italy in the four centuries BCE,to the benefit of the Jews.By the Roman period they were well known as peddlers of talismans and horoscopes and were often indistinguishable from Chaldaeans.In 139 BCE we hear of Chaldaeans ajnd jews alike being driven out of Rome.Intriguningly,these Jews are recorded as worshipers of Sabazius,another name for Dionysus.In Mystery Religons in the Ancient World,several Jewish depictions of the zodiac are depicted.

Nellinator
Now, I was being slightly overzealous, but the connection of John the Baptist to a water god is completely stupid considering that he matches ancient prophecy and baptism is an ancient Jewish tradition. It is quite predictable and in line with prophecy and tradition. There is nothing mystical or godlike about John the Baptist and nothing of the sort is attached to him other than that he was a prophet.

More likely, they are simply the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve disciples represent the twelve tribes. The Zodiac doesn't apply here outside of the number.

Now it is important to seperate Biblical astronomy from astrology because they are very different. Now the twelve constellations were well known by the Jews since the beginning of their tradition and the Jewish historian Josephus claims that Jewish astronomy was established by Adam, Seth, and Enoch.

The menorah predates the 4th century BC by quite a bit. Its design is that of a moriah plant. The moriah grows in Israel.
http://www.bialik.vic.edu.au/imagebank/images/Israel/7%20branched%20moriah.jpg
There's a picture. Compare that to the Menorah and you will see a striking resemblance.

Devil King
Originally posted by Nellinator
Now, I was being slightly overzealous

Oh stop it! YOU? That's not possible.

Nellinator
I swear it happened... I'm not sure what came over me, it's so out of character...

Alliance
Sol Invictus Mithras can beat up any god any day firefirefireph

One of my favorite cults.

Devil King
Originally posted by Alliance
Sol Invictus Mithras can beat up any god any day firefirefireph

One of my favorite cults.

ManBearPig would kick his ass any day of the week.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Devil King
ManBearPig would kick his ass any day of the week. Are you serial?

Devil King
Originally posted by Nellinator
Are you serial?

totally serial

Alliance
Then you're also wrong.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by Nellinator
Now, I was being slightly overzealous, but the connection of John the Baptist to a water god is completely stupid considering that he matches ancient prophecy and baptism is an ancient Jewish tradition. It is quite predictable and in line with prophecy and tradition. There is nothing mystical or godlike about John the Baptist and nothing of the sort is attached to him other than that he was a prophet.

More likely, they are simply the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve disciples represent the twelve tribes. The Zodiac doesn't apply here outside of the number.

Now it is important to seperate Biblical astronomy from astrology because they are very different. Now the twelve constellations were well known by the Jews since the beginning of their tradition and the Jewish historian Josephus claims that Jewish astronomy was established by Adam, Seth, and Enoch.

The menorah predates the 4th century BC by quite a bit. Its design is that of a moriah plant. The moriah grows in Israel.
http://www.bialik.vic.edu.au/imagebank/images/Israel/7%20branched%20moriah.jpg
There's a picture. Compare that to the Menorah and you will see a striking resemblance.


The connection between John the Baptist and a water god comes from the very name John.The rite of baptism can be traced to the sumerian temple city of Eridu.The god of Baptism was Ea,"God of the House of Water'.In the Hellenestic period Ea was known as Oannes,in Greek this is Ioannes,in Latin Johannes,Hebrew Yohanan,and in english John.

Nellinator
Originally posted by mr.smiley
The connection between John the Baptist and a water god comes from the very name John.The rite of baptism can be traced to the sumerian temple city of Eridu.The god of Baptism was Ea,"God of the House of Water'.In the Hellenestic period Ea was known as Oannes,in Greek this is Ioannes,in Latin Johannes,Hebrew Yohanan,and in english John. I researched this a little bit and the whole connection is a bit weak. First off, Oannes is not spelled Ionannes in Greek, Enki was known as Oannes which is similar in spelling to Ionannes which is Yohanan which is John, but the names are different. Most important the similarity in names is completely inconsquential because John is established to have been a real person that baptized people. Therefore this cannot be borrowed if it was a real person that baptized people. Second, Enki, was a lord of the deep waters like groundwater and ocean freshwater. This is significantly different than anything that could be associated with baptism. Third, Enki did not use true baptism, in fact it was quite different considering that it used a small non-immersion font and Jesus was baptized in a river. Also, the symbolism is so completely different that they are hardly comparable. Fourth, water was so commonly used to signify cleansing that it cannot be argued that it was stolen. The symbolism of water in baptism is quite clear as it is a universal idea, however, Christian baptism is a completely seperate symbolism and it's method is seperate from any predecessor.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Nellinator
Now please, never bring something as amateur and retarded as this to my attention again. Also, give up on the idea that they are even remotely similar. The summary of their similarities is that they were both descended of royalty and had death threats against them. This simply isn't even an argument. See Kali? These are the sort of things that piss me off, this sort of absolute retardation. Got a bug up there? Now anyone with a half a brain knows that any myth be it Christianity or any other myth has different versions and depending on who is in the leadership role, would allow to be the more popular versions. Now I do have to say that I've read other versions that are quite different from the one link I've posted. The Mithra research seems to be of stronger evidence on coinciding factors that relate to the Christian version of Jesus. However, even the all the Christian versions were not accepted into cannon either. It's all in the pick of the draw and who's in charge.

Nellinator
Except that the Horus one is an absolute forgerie, there is no evidence for 90% of what Massey claimed. Mithra is closer, but still the evidence isn't there. Why you try to invalidate Christianity like this is beyond my understanding... well not really, but we won't go there... Anyways, if you are going to reject Christianity that is your choice, but for looking to invalidate it because of claims that it stole its mythology is stupid and every single one I have ever seen has been quite soundly debunked.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by Nellinator
I researched this a little bit and the whole connection is a bit weak. First off, Oannes is not spelled Ionannes in Greek, Enki was known as Oannes which is similar in spelling to Ionannes which is Yohanan which is John, but the names are different. Most important the similarity in names is completely inconsquential because John is established to have been a real person that baptized people. Therefore this cannot be borrowed if it was a real person that baptized people. Second, Enki, was a lord of the deep waters like groundwater and ocean freshwater. This is significantly different than anything that could be associated with baptism. Third, Enki did not use true baptism, in fact it was quite different considering that it used a small non-immersion font and Jesus was baptized in a river. Also, the symbolism is so completely different that they are hardly comparable. Fourth, water was so commonly used to signify cleansing that it cannot be argued that it was stolen. The symbolism of water in baptism is quite clear as it is a universal idea, however, Christian baptism is a completely seperate symbolism and it's method is seperate from any predecessor.

John as a historical person is up for debate.Their is just as much research against the existance of John as their is for a john.This constitutes for almost everyone in the Bible.
I don't think I made the claim Christians 'stole' baptism,but it is easy to see the gradual evoloution of the process from different religous beliefs.

debbiejo
Well the Christians religion made a literal baptism of the blood of a real lamb or bull into a symbolic baptism of water. Blood has always been very sacred even in pagan beliefs. This is way woman were put upon many pagan pedestals. They were holy because they menstruate and was associated with the moon, or moon cycles and they gave birth. Men could not do that nor understand why, so other myths or stories began to be created that included men giving birth from odd parts of their bodies like Zeus giving birth from his leg for example.

Nellinator
Originally posted by mr.smiley
John as a historical person is up for debate.Their is just as much research against the existance of John as their is for a john.This constitutes for almost everyone in the Bible.
I don't think I made the claim Christians 'stole' baptism,but it is easy to see the gradual evoloution of the process from different religous beliefs. Hardly up for debate. The evidence against is so very weak that it is grasping for straws. But at least you have done real research that makes sense and has some validity to it and you don't piss me off smile

Well, the Jews never used bulls, bulls are never connected to any sacrifice or anything. There was always baptism in Judaism, there was also washing. Also, in Judaic law a menstruating woman was unclean during that time and had to be washed with water to become clean again making this whole argument look pretty ridiculous because this is entirely in contradiction to everything you just said.

DigiMark007
While I actually admire the fact that you're trying to conjure up facts to refute the connection between Jesus and other dieties, it's a losing battle. It's not just Horus, and whether or not this Massey fellow is full of crap is irrelevant.

There's literally hundreds of (confirmed, factual) connections between the life and works of Jesus and "deities" that predate him by anywhere from a few decades to numerous centuries.

It's the same story. And this is FAR from the first religion forum thread to be dedicated to it.

As for calling Joe Campbell an idiot, read some of his stuff first. Until his death he was one of the world's foremost authorities on mythology and comparative religion. Discrediting him based on a line or two from an internet forum is hardly fair.

Thundar
Originally posted by DigiMark007
While I actually admire the fact that you're trying to conjure up facts to refute the connection between Jesus and other dieties, it's a losing battle. It's not just Horus, and whether or not this Massey fellow is full of crap is irrelevant.

There's literally hundreds of (confirmed, factual) connections between the life and works of Jesus and "deities" that predate him by anywhere from a few decades to numerous centuries.

It's the same story. And this is FAR from the first religion forum thread to be dedicated to it.

As for calling Joe Campbell an idiot, read some of his stuff first. Until his death he was one of the world's foremost authorities on mythology and comparative religion. Discrediting him based on a line or two from an internet forum is hardly fair.

1700 BC was around the time the Israelites were thought to have entered Egypt, predating the inception of the Horus story. It's pretty apparent that the Egyptians based Horus off of the Israelite Messiah stories. Much of the original messiah prophecy was probably passed on to the Israelites and the other sons of Abraham roughly around 2100 BC - predating most if not all similar stories from other cultures.

Like Abraham and Jacob - the Israelites were very nomadic, moving from various portions of what we now know to be the Middle East, Syria, and Africa. This is probably another reason why so many similar stories of a messiah can be found in other cultures within these regions.

If you really want to get deep into Christian theology though, the story of the messiah is actually referenced in the books of Adam and Eve. This historical account of mankind's mother and father is thought to have taken place roughly around 4000 BC. The oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament include these books, and were found in the Dead Sea scrolls which themselves date back to roughly 200 BC.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by Nellinator
Hardly up for debate. The evidence against is so very weak that it is grasping for straws. But at least you have done real research that makes sense and has some validity to it and you don't piss me off smile

Well, the Jews never used bulls, bulls are never connected to any sacrifice or anything. There was always baptism in Judaism, there was also washing. Also, in Judaic law a menstruating woman was unclean during that time and had to be washed with water to become clean again making this whole argument look pretty ridiculous because this is entirely in contradiction to everything you just said.


LOL.At least we can have a civilized debate.

Bulls were connected in sacrafice with Mithra.Mithra was a god of fertility and was also associated with war.According to the mythology of Mithra,he slayed the bull known as Geush Urvan.All plants and crops growing were atrributed to the corpse of the sacrificed Geush Urvan.

You can find plenty on this particular story but I suggest the Ultimate Encylopedia Of Mythology.

inimalist
Originally posted by Thundar
1700 BC was around the time the Israelites were thought to have entered Egypt, predating the inception of the Horus story. It's pretty apparent that the Egyptians based Horus off of the Israelite Messiah stories. Much of the original messiah prophecy was probably passed on to the Israelites and the other sons of Abraham roughly around 2100 BC - predating most if not all similar stories from other cultures.

Like Abraham and Jacob - the Israelites were very nomadic, moving from various portions of what we now know to be the Middle East, Syria, and Africa. This is probably another reason why so many similar stories of a messiah can be found in other cultures within these regions.

If you really want to get deep into Christian theology though, the story of the messiah is actually referenced in the books of Adam and Eve. This historical account of mankind's mother and father is thought to have taken place roughly around 4000 BC. The oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament include these books, and were found in the Dead Sea scrolls which themselves date back to roughly 200 BC.

do you have outside sources for any of these claims?

some are interesting and generally redefine a lot of what I had thought of that era.

Thundar
Originally posted by inimalist
do you have outside sources for any of these claims?

some are interesting and generally redefine a lot of what I had thought of that era.



http://www.drshirley.org/hist/hist02.html

The site above gives pretty good timelines of the existence of patriarchs(Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses) and of the Israelites time within Egypt.



http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/joseph.htm

Describes the various Egyptian Dynasties the Israelites were under during the Israelite patriarch Joseph's reign in Egypt, as well as gives a picture of what is thought to be Joseph's tomb. Joseph's tenure in Egypt is probably the time when messiah/Hebrew prophecies were the most prevelant and widespread to the Egyptian people.


You can look up the Dead Sea scrolls by going to google and typing in the "book of Adam and Eve" and "Dead Sea scrolls." As stated before, the creation of the scrolls themselves is dated to about 200 BC, however, the stories and biblical works contained within them are obviously many centuries older.

mr.smiley
The biggest problem with these theorys is the fact the the Eygptians themselves kept no records of the Jews as is recorded in the Bible.Seems very unlikely the Eygptians mention nothing of this.Many have made claims that the Greek philosophers borrowed from the Jews,but they fail to mention how Greek Philosophers could have access to Hebrew Scriptures centuries before they were translated into Greek.Aristobulus even went as far to see Plato taken Moses ideas.Josephus claimed this too.However,their's no proof of what either of them say.The first translation of the Old Testiment into Greek can be dated no earlier thatn the middle of the first century CE.Even the Old Testiment itself claims the Greeks were among those who had not heard the fame of the Lord.See Isaiah 66:19

Nellinator
Originally posted by mr.smiley
LOL.At least we can have a civilized debate.

Bulls were connected in sacrafice with Mithra.Mithra was a god of fertility and was also associated with war.According to the mythology of Mithra,he slayed the bull known as Geush Urvan.All plants and crops growing were atrributed to the corpse of the sacrificed Geush Urvan.

You can find plenty on this particular story but I suggest the Ultimate Encylopedia Of Mythology. Yah, I read about the bull thing and Mithra. Interesting how it is connected with the age of Taurus and whatnot... Now it also seems that people have combined Iranian Mithraism with Roman Mithraism which are two completely seperate stories, I only wish they had different names.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
While I actually admire the fact that you're trying to conjure up facts to refute the connection between Jesus and other dieties, it's a losing battle. It's not just Horus, and whether or not this Massey fellow is full of crap is irrelevant.

There's literally hundreds of (confirmed, factual) connections between the life and works of Jesus and "deities" that predate him by anywhere from a few decades to numerous centuries.

It's the same story. And this is FAR from the first religion forum thread to be dedicated to it.

As for calling Joe Campbell an idiot, read some of his stuff first. Until his death he was one of the world's foremost authorities on mythology and comparative religion. Discrediting him based on a line or two from an internet forum is hardly fair. Umm... well these weren't conjured up, they come from non-internet sources or simply the lack of sources in the comparitive arguments which are generally laughable because of the lack of genuine sources.

Secondly, every story I have heard so far (ie. Mithras, Horus, Osiris, Krishna, etc.) is crap and they have all been debunked. They simply don't work, if the arguments were valid they would be something more than an internet phenomenom.

mr.smiley
Well it's more than an internet phenomenom and I have yet to see the connections between Jesus and older god-men debunked.Some claims can be disputed,but nothing has ever came up to debunk the connections between Christ and older god-men.I find more people talking on the internet about Jesus than I do Mithra.Besides,people aren't happy when their religious beliefs are put into jeopardy.It's an issue most would rather not touch.It's nothing new.Scholars have known of the obvious parelells between Christ and older Pagan prophets for quiet a long time.It's just now becoming widely known.

Nellinator
The similarities simply aren't strong enough. The travelling prophet that does miracles is about the only valid similarity you will see long with the old sermon on the mount, but these are nothing really to compare them by as the teachings can still be so very very different. Symbolism is universal so it is not surprising that some things are similar, but it falls apart when the meanings are so very different.

Thundar
Originally posted by mr.smiley
The biggest problem with these theorys is the fact the the Eygptians themselves kept no records of the Jews as is recorded in the Bible.Seems very unlikely the Eygptians mention nothing of this.Many have made claims that the Greek philosophers borrowed from the Jews,but they fail to mention how Greek Philosophers could have access to Hebrew Scriptures centuries before they were translated into Greek.Aristobulus even went as far to see Plato taken Moses ideas.Josephus claimed this too.However,their's no proof of what either of them say.The first translation of the Old Testiment into Greek can be dated no earlier thatn the middle of the first century CE.Even the Old Testiment itself claims the Greeks were among those who had not heard the fame of the Lord.See Isaiah 66:19


The Dead Sea Scrolls speak volumes as to whom the stories originated from, despite their age. Much of the original manuscripts found within the scrolls were written in Hebrew and in Greek, which further demonstrates that many Greek philosophers had access to them.

Ancient Greece, Mesapotamia, and Egypt were very dense melting pot type areas around 1600 BC much like the US is today - and consisted of people from all geographic areas of the time. Much of Egypt was probably inundated with Israelite culture during the Hyksos dynasty around 1600BC, the dynasty in which the Israelite patriarch Joseph is thought to have reigned over much of Egypt. The Hebrew manuscripts were probably translated to Greek and other languages during this time, and passed on to the surrounding areas of Mesapotamia, Greece, and Cannan.

All of what I've stated is a very practical way of taking the known histories and dates to answer yours/others questions. If you carefully examine the dates and histories given within the information I've posted, you'll see that the evidence seems to pretty much overwhelming point to most of the messiah stories being either Israelite in origin, or related to cultures which reference Abraham as their father.

debbiejo
Originally posted by mr.smiley
It's nothing new.Scholars have known of the obvious parelells between Christ and older Pagan prophets for quiet a long time.It's just now becoming widely known. Yes even Pope Leo X knew this as he is quoted "We owe all this to the fable of Jesus Christ. All ages can testifie enough howe profitable that fable of Christe."

Encyclopaedia articles on Leo are based upon Roscoe's Life and Pontificate of Leo X (4 vols., 1805)


This is confirmed by The Complete Plays of John Bale (ed. Peter Happe), who notes that Bale in his plays "introduced a variety of matter to satirise the Roman Church and parody its rites and customs.

In 325ad, with Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea, Rome metamorphosized into a new religious structure, based on the emergence of Jesus Christ, and arguably more powerful then any organized religion that had ever come before. In fact, some believe that the Church of Rome, the Vatican, is actually nothing but a transformation of older Babylonian mystery schools, and that the religious centerpiece of the Roman empire predates Rome itself; back to the time of Nebechenezzer and the Tower of Babel. Whatever the case, we know for a fact that the inner mystery religion of Rome was based primarily on the Persian and Indian sun-god Mithra, as well as gods that took dominion and rulership over each of the planets in our solar system. Mars, Venus, Saturn, Pluto, and all the rest.

It is just becoming more widely know as mr. smiley has stated.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/index.htm

Excellent book. I've read it.

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes even Pope Leo X knew this as he is quoted "We owe all this to the fable of Jesus Christ. All ages can testifie enough howe profitable that fable of Christe."

Encyclopaedia articles on Leo are based upon Roscoe's Life and Pontificate of Leo X (4 vols., 1805)


This is confirmed by The Complete Plays of John Bale (ed. Peter Happe), who notes that Bale in his plays "introduced a variety of matter to satirise the Roman Church and parody its rites and customs.

In 325ad, with Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea, Rome metamorphosized into a new religious structure, based on the emergence of Jesus Christ, and arguably more powerful then any organized religion that had ever come before. In fact, some believe that the Church of Rome, the Vatican, is actually nothing but a transformation of older Babylonian mystery schools, and that the religious centerpiece of the Roman empire predates Rome itself; back to the time of Nebechenezzer and the Tower of Babel. Whatever the case, we know for a fact that the inner mystery religion of Rome was based primarily on the Persian and Indian sun-god Mithra, as well as gods that took dominion and rulership over each of the planets in our solar system. Mars, Venus, Saturn, Pluto, and all the rest.

It is just becoming more widely know as mr. smiley has stated.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/index.htm

Excellent book. I've read it. First of all that is some horrible citation to the point where the source is unrecognizable.

Second, that quote is actually from John Bale's The Pageant of the Popes. That is, Pope Leo X never actually said. Bale said that Leo X said it in an antipapal treatise. Bale knew that Leo never said it, he was intentionally being a dink.

Constantine screwed a lot of things up, Hislop touches on some of them, but he overstretches.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by Thundar
The Dead Sea Scrolls speak volumes as to whom the stories originated from, despite their age. Much of the original manuscripts found within the scrolls were written in Hebrew and in Greek, which further demonstrates that many Greek philosophers had access to them.

Ancient Greece, Mesapotamia, and Egypt were very dense melting pot type areas around 1600 BC much like the US is today - and consisted of people from all geographic areas of the time. Much of Egypt was probably inundated with Israelite culture during the Hyksos dynasty around 1600BC, the dynasty in which the Israelite patriarch Joseph is thought to have reigned over much of Egypt. The Hebrew manuscripts were probably translated to Greek and other languages during this time, and passed on to the surrounding areas of Mesapotamia, Greece, and Cannan.

All of what I've stated is a very practical way of taking the known histories and dates to answer yours/others questions. If you carefully examine the dates and histories given within the information I've posted, you'll see that the evidence seems to pretty much overwhelming point to most of the messiah stories being either Israelite in origin, or related to cultures which reference Abraham as their father.

I will definently look more into the Dead Sea Scrolls due to the fact research in them is not one of my strong points.However,James,M.Robinson,in his introduction to the Nag Hammadi Library,states the finding of the Scrolls did more to divide the theological sects.It seems as if it would have put all more into a state of one than seperation.Most authors and scholars I have read use the Dead Sea Scrolls to the advancement of their own arguements which makes it even more interesting.I will have to read more on it though.Just as anyone taking a position on anything you can always put a crack in the armor.what you speak of the Israelities seems to draw more from an influence in Zoroastrianism,seeing as how it had a profound impact upon Christianity early Christianity.At any rate,I still find it untrue that Plato would have learned from Moses due to the fact their teachings were very,very, different.and still the Bible makes the claim that the Greeks were among those who did not know the Lord.Though their is still no explanation as to why the Egptians were totaly silenent about the Jew or Moses.Nonetheless,I will research it!! smile

Nellinator
The Dead Seas Scrolls are useful, but that is it. They simply confirm many of the points of the Septugaint which was the canon used by Jesus.

mr.smiley
That makes more sense.I will still look into them though.More seems to be made over the Nag Hammadi findings,but maybe that's just because I read more into them.

Nellinator
You hear about the Nag Hammadi more because it is controversial. The OT has many other things confirming it, such as the Talmud, the Masocretic text, and the Septugaint. The Dead Sea Scrolls simply add. The most significant thing about them is that the only complete scroll happens to be Isaiah and contain the suffering servant prophecy of Jesus, proving the antiquity of the prophecy.

mr.smiley
the Talmud was based upon older writings but it wasn't written until 2oo CE.So I don't realy see the relevance their.
The Suffering Servant prophecy Of Jesus?Even though I said my knowledge on the Dead Sea Scrolls is limited,i'm willing to bet their's plenty of contraversy on whether or not it's realy talking about Jesus.

the Nag Hammadi is more controversial simply because it paints a different picture of early Christianity.One the early church tried to supress.Of course the church considers the text heresey,but anyone could see what it realy did was show early Christian beliefs were much more diverse than previously belived.

debbiejo
Oh don't even get me started on Isaiah. There were older pagan writings that were inserted in that book too and said to of been written by Isaiah. But I'll have to go back and look them up to quote it exactly.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Thundar
The Dead Sea Scrolls speak volumes as to whom the stories originated from, despite their age. Much of the original manuscripts found within the scrolls were written in Hebrew and in Greek, which further demonstrates that many Greek philosophers had access to them.

Ancient Greece, Mesapotamia, and Egypt were very dense melting pot type areas around 1600 BC much like the US is today - and consisted of people from all geographic areas of the time. Much of Egypt was probably inundated with Israelite culture during the Hyksos dynasty around 1600BC, the dynasty in which the Israelite patriarch Joseph is thought to have reigned over much of Egypt. The Hebrew manuscripts were probably translated to Greek and other languages during this time, and passed on to the surrounding areas of Mesapotamia, Greece, and Cannan.

All of what I've stated is a very practical way of taking the known histories and dates to answer yours/others questions. If you carefully examine the dates and histories given within the information I've posted, you'll see that the evidence seems to pretty much overwhelming point to most of the messiah stories being either Israelite in origin, or related to cultures which reference Abraham as their father. I think this is overstretching the other way, but yes, the Israelites influenced other people that were more open to change. And mr.smiley you are probably right (definitely right imo, but we'll just leave it open for giggles) that Plato didn't get anything from Moses.

Nellinator
Originally posted by mr.smiley
the Talmud was based upon older writings but it wasn't written until 2oo CE.So I don't realy see the relevance their.
The Suffering Servant prophecy Of Jesus?Even though I said my knowledge on the Dead Sea Scrolls is limited,i'm willing to bet their's plenty of contraversy on whether or not it's realy talking about Jesus.

the Nag Hammadi is more controversial simply because it paints a different picture of early Christianity.One the early church tried to supress.Of course the church considers the text heresey,but anyone could see what it realy did was show early Christian beliefs were much more diverse than previously belived. The interesting part about the suffering servant prophecy, is that despite some small controversy it has been a thorn in the side of the Jews because of its accurate description to the point where some Jews want it removed from the canon.

And yah, definitely diverse. Christianity wasn't even just limited to the Catholics, Orthodox, and Gnostics either.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Oh don't even get me started on Isaiah. There were older pagan writings that were inserted in that book too and said to of been written by Isaiah. But I'll have to go back and look them up to quote it exactly. We already went over that one, the Isaiah script predates the other one.

debbiejo
I don't believe that was actually settled. stick out tongue

Nellinator
I'm being presumptuous, but the dating is so close that it is impossible to tell really.

debbiejo
I'll give you that. It was close. smile

Thundar
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think this is overstretching the other way, but yes, the Israelites influenced other people that were more open to change. And mr.smiley you are probably right (definitely right imo, but we'll just leave it open for giggles) that Plato didn't get anything from Moses.


I could of sworn the Greek translation of the Genesis account had the phrase "and the Lord said to Plato"(sic)...wink




Isaiah 53:5-12 proves beyond reasonable doubt that the suffering servant is Jesus, as the description of the "lamb" and its suffering uncannily resemble that of his crucifixion.

I will admit that there are other verses within Isaiah which seem to be referring more to Israel as a nation, as opposed to Jesus himself. This doesn't take away from Jesus being the suffering servant any, as his sacrifice is referenced within the scriptures as being necessary in order to redeem/return Israel as being a servant/child of God.

If you have the time, I'd definitely recommend that you read the book of Isaiah, along with the books of Adam and Eve and Enoch. They're very interesting and good reads.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Thundar
I could of sworn the Greek translation of the Genesis account had the phrase "and the Lord said to Plato"(sic)...wink What is the source your using for this, I'd really like to check it out first hand... Also, what Biblical name is substituted for Plato?

On another note, I was rereading a book I read a long time ago and there is evidence that Hebrews in Sinai created a written language from which Greek script was derived either directly, or (more likely) through the Canaanites, and from there, the English script itself. I can not find the original source material anywhere because its from 1905, but let it suffice to say that the researcher was Flinders Petrie.

Thundar
Originally posted by Nellinator
What is the source your using for this, I'd really like to check it out first hand... Also, what Biblical name is substituted for Plato?


Lol..it was sarcasm, hence why I used the word sic. No such quote exists, but man would it would be funny if it did - then we'd have definite proof of the Greeks copying Hebrew works.


Originally posted by Nellinator
On another note, I was rereading a book I read a long time ago and there is evidence that Hebrews in Sinai created a written language from which Greek script was derived either directly, or (more likely) through the Canaanites, and from there, the English script itself. I can not find the original source material anywhere because its from 1905, but let it suffice to say that the researcher was Flinders Petrie.


That definitely makes sense. If you read that link I posted from the Freeman Institute you'll see that a lot of information on there goes into detail about how the Israelite patriarch Joseph requested to be buried in the land Cannan, as well as how the Israelites occupied both Egypt and Canaan during the Hyksos(or Hebrew) dynasty in Egypt. This pretty much backs up a lot of what you've posted, as the Canaanites had much interaction with the Israelites during this time.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Thundar
Lol..it was sarcasm, hence why I used the word sic. No such quote exists, but man would it would be funny if it did - then we'd have definite proof of the Greeks copying Hebrew works.




That definitely makes sense. If you read that link I posted from the Freeman Institute you'll see that a lot of information on there goes into detail about how the Israelite patriarch Joseph requested to be buried in the land Cannan, as well as how the Israelites occupied both Egypt and Canaan during the Hyksos(or Hebrew) dynasty in Egypt. This pretty much backs up a lot of what you've posted, as the Canaanites had much interaction with the Israelites during this time. Oh, I thought you were using (sic) in the "archaic usage may actually mean Plato" way...

Yah, I've read a lot about the Hyskos... the existance of that foreign dynasty explains a lot of things... as well as Ramses II being an Assyrian.

mr.smiley
I waTCHED a clip from that guy on tv taling about dead sea scrolls.Nothihng special.Did talk about Iseeiah thogh.I forgot i saw thouhgt.

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