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Forgiveness is a central theme in many religions.

However, what do we think is the role Forgiveness can actually play in the Modern World?

Should we take a more forgiving role to our peers and family? Not let small squabbles cause great rifts?

Should we then be more forgiving of criminals...especially when the Death Penalty is involved...

However, this thread also seeks to allow the reader to act on the title and exercise some forgiveness...So, when you post your argument also post...a little note of forgiveness. (You only need to do it once)

JIA...I forgive you.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Forgiveness is a central theme in many religions.

However, what do we think is the role Forgiveness can actually play in the Modern World?

Should we take a more forgiving role to our peers and family? Not let small squabbles cause great rifts?

Should we then be more forgiving of criminals...especially when the Death Penalty is involved...

However, this thread also seeks to allow the reader to act on the title and exercise some forgiveness...So, when you post your argument also post...a little note of forgiveness. (You only need to do it once)

JIA...I forgive you.

JIA...I forgive you too.

*goes out and saves worms from the rain*

I save things that need saving.

Capitialism took that ideal from ever coming to fruition.

. . . is for pansies.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
. . . is for pansies.

We forgive you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We forgive you.

Rawr!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Rawr!

Don't let it go to your head.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
*goes out and saves worms from the rain*

I save things that need saving.

It's highly doubtful that such cognitively simple forms of life have anywhere near the levels of consciousness needed to process pain, or even anything resembling negativity as we understand it. It gets dicey once you jump up to, say, rodents and other small animals, but anything at or near the level of a worm in conscious of nothing. I feel no remorse in killing, or not saving, such creatures. I don't go out of my way to kill them, of course, but I also don't fall into the needlessly pacifistic "protect all life" idiom.

...

Forgiveness is necessary to function as a species. So long as our forgiveness does not extend to the point where our docile tendencies cause harm to ourselves or others, it should always be the goal, regardless of whether you view it from an altruistic perspective or a survival perspective.

It's true. It's for our well being both physically and emotionally. To let it go and move on frees up your out look on life, moves you on, and contributes to healthy bodily functions.

Forgiveness is more about releasing grudges and anger that are overshadowing your personal health and wellbeing, than letting someone off the hook for his or her misdeeds.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Forgiveness is a central theme in many religions.

However, what do we think is the role Forgiveness can actually play in the Modern World?

Should we take a more forgiving role to our peers and family? Not let small squabbles cause great rifts?

Should we then be more forgiving of criminals...especially when the Death Penalty is involved...

However, this thread also seeks to allow the reader to act on the title and exercise some forgiveness...So, when you post your argument also post...a little note of forgiveness. (You only need to do it once)

JIA...I forgive you.

Its not a central theme in heathenism...in fact there is quite alot of revenge in Norse lore. However I think that has alot to do with the time period. The Vikings didn't just fight all the time and did have laws, however I don't think even to this day heathens make big deal about forgiveness but im sure they can use common sense and know that sometimes its good to let things lie.

I think that has something to do with the fact that sometimes forgiveness is an ideal. We know we should forgive, but sometimes we can't bring ourselves to. Vengeance can look very appealing sometimes.

Oprah, I forgive you.

I have no one to forgive, because nobody has ever done anything wrong.

srug

Forgiveness is one of the hardest things to reach in life, but also the most gratifying. If you are able to forgive, nothing can reach you. Jesus was above all man for is capacity to forgive. He died forgiving us.

That is what this world is lacking. There is alot of extremes now. For example, the big entreprises, where one false move could man destitution. When you've lost everything, is it so easy to forgive the one that took that away from you?

That is the main challenge, and I always try to forgive as much as I can. It makes nme feel better, my personal battle against myself and the rest of the world, that has gone so terribly bad in so many moral ways...

Nah, materialism pwns.

313

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nah, materialism pwns.

313

Materialism is within its self is not a bad thing. It is the projection of suffering from were the responsibility truly lies to other people of things that is bad, in that it leads to delusions. If you drink all night and wake in the morning with a hang over, you are the only person to blame for your own suffering.

Originally posted by Mandos
We do not live in a world of forgiveness, which makes persons who can special to me.

Forgiveness is not something that can make a world; it is something that we do.

Originally posted by Mandos
Has nothing to do with what you quoted of me. Read it again.

I was trying to show you how cause and effect are not changed by forgiveness.

Originally posted by Mandos
Right, and what about all the sins of men? Have you read the Bible?

I have read the bible from the beginning to the end; have you? What about all the good things that we humans have done?

Originally posted by Mandos
I agree with you on this one, but it does not stop the lack of forgiveness to hurt still.

Attachments to forgiveness lead to suffering.

Originally posted by Mandos
Personnally, I received alot of shit in my life, and being able to sincerly forgive everything in my heart is tough, yes.

If you take responsibility for all things in your life, you will have no need for forgiveness.

It seems our views of forgiveness are different, and I have a feeling we aren't speaking of the same things. What is your vision of forgiveness?

Originally posted by Mandos
It seems our views of forgiveness are different, and I have a feeling we aren't speaking of the same things. What is your vision of forgiveness?

I am using the dictionary to define the word:

Forgiveness is the act of forgiving.

To forgive is to excuse somebody for a mistake, misunderstanding, wrongdoing, or inappropriate behavior.

What does the word forgiveness mean to you?

Is it a code word of some kind?

His philosophical understanding of Forgiveness seems to be much deeper than yours...I agree with him. (Mandos that is)

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
His philosophical understanding of Forgiveness seems to be much deeper than yours...I agree with him. (Mandos that is)

Please explain. Unless you are using the word as a code word, then the dictionary definition is what we are talking about.

Forgivness in the Bible is more than just the forgiveness description in the dictionnary. What it englobes is deeply larger than a few lines.

Originally posted by Mandos
Forgivness in the Bible is more than just the forgiveness description in the dictionnary. What it englobes is deeply larger than a few lines.

I disagree. Forgiveness is that bible is the same word as in the dictionary. Please give me an example that moves past the definition of the word.

It's not a question of altering forgiveness' definition. it is merely that we can apply it to a larger sense.

Originally posted by Mandos
It's not a question of altering forgiveness' definition. it is merely that we can apply it to a larger sense.

So, please explain this "larger sense".

There is to forgive someone, there is to forgive something. Forgiveness can be a way of life to attain purity and to toss away hate, and it's more than what the dictionnary says. It's mor ethan an action.

When you believe, you forgive. And when you forgive, you love.

Originally posted by Mandos
There is to forgive someone, there is to forgive something. Forgiveness can be a way of life to attain purity and to toss away hate, and it's more than what the dictionnary says. It's mor ethan an action.

When you believe, you forgive. And when you forgive, you love.

How would forgiveness lead to purity? Forgiveness may lead to a type of release, but it is just delusion if there is no responsibility along with it.

"When you believe, you forgive. And when you forgive, you love."

When you believe in what? What do you then forgive? Do you need to forgive before you can love?

Which is more pure to you; to love only after forgiveness or to love regardless of forgiveness?

You take forgiveness, and let the other take responsibility. Do not mix them together, there are two seperate things.

Purest is love with forgiveness, for you cannot love as you should if you cannot forgive.

Believe in the value of forgiveness, and you will forgive what it is you should forgive, even if the other one is in no regrets.

You're mixing quite some things up in your sentences. I have to go for today, but I'll leave it at the discretion of other people, such as Gran Moff Gav, to explain what I mean. I beleive he understands.

Originally posted by Mandos
You're mixing quite some things up in your sentences. I have to go for today, but I'll leave it at the discretion of other people, such as Gran Moff Gav, to explain what I mean. I beleive he understands.

I know that if you cannot explain something, then you do not understand it yourself.

I think he means the ability to forgive- no matter how bad you have been wronged- will help you become a stronger person and deal with any grief/anxieties much more effectively than other people.

If honed this ability would allow you to stop hating other people and thus love.

Love through forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not for a "Gods" sake, cause this god would be all knowing...it was for "Mans," sake, for his betterment in relation with others.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Forgiveness is not for a "Gods" sake, cause this god would be all knowing...it was for "Mans," sake, for his betterment in relation with others.

Indeed, a possibility but then, even if someone is all knowing and all powerful is it not equal possible that when someone wrongs that entity, said entity has the power to forgive them?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed, a possibility but then, even if someone is all knowing and all powerful is it not equal possible that when someone wrongs that entity, said entity has the power to forgive them? Wrongs an entity star-lights above them? In the Bible it is said that god is not describable nor his ways......so we cannot fathom those ways in all things. To even try to imagine it would be wrong according to the Bible........It was mans manipulations that tried to make to to our understand, and that to me is blasphemous.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Wrongs an entity star-lights above them? In the Bible it is said that god is not describable nor his ways......so we cannot fathom those ways in all things. To even try to imagine it would be wrong according to the Bible........It was mans manipulations that tried to make to to our understand, and that to me is blasphemous.

Well luckily for us Jesus (God the Son) told us what would offend God...thusly, we know what wrongs him...

However, even if we didn't know what wronged God...we could still ask for forgiveness for anything we did do that wronged him.

Also, he isn't light-years (you said star-lights) above us...he's omnipresent.

forgivness.......knowi a wrong committed. Yet there wongs thatare not forgiven, yes, by your churfch. . Sorryt for the misspellings.........not to a lalllllllllllllllptop..........kGrrr

fricken laptop...........

Forgiveness is omnipresent, as God. Accept or refuse God's presence. Accept and refuse forgiveness. They are all choices we must take throughout our lives.

You can ask forgiveness for what you did wrong. It is normal, we are sinners. And God, if you are honest, will forgive you, no matter what you did.

This is the holy forgiveness we humans should tend to, for if we never will reach it, there is stil a way to make the world a better place through it, thus be closer to God and his will.

Sorry for my late response, I would have liked to be there in the heat of the debate.

sk forgivness from the god who made sin in the first place? "And he/god made everything and said it WAS GOOD."

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I think he means the ability to forgive- no matter how bad you have been wronged- will help you become a stronger person and deal with any grief/anxieties much more effectively than other people.

If honed this ability would allow you to stop hating other people and thus love.

Love through forgiveness.

I know what he was saying. The problem is; he didn't.

How do you get to the point of forgiving? You don't do it by keeping points. Like you did me wrong, so, I will forgive you. *puts one mark in the air with finger* You find forgiveness when you realize that you are responsible for all things in your life. I don't care how you get there. You can call it a divine presents that has saved you, or you could call it enlightenment, it is all the same in the end. Faith is the only true magic in this world, but it does not matter if you are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist. I was once a Christian, and I know what it feels like to have the spirit move through me. Now as a Buddhist, I have that same feeling when I chant.

This Holy Spirit is ether real and in all religions, or it is just a product of our mind and body.

Originally posted by Mandos
Forgiveness is omnipresent, as God. Accept or refuse God's presence. Accept and refuse forgiveness. They are all choices we must take throughout our lives.

You can ask forgiveness for what you did wrong. It is normal, we are sinners. And God, if you are honest, will forgive you, no matter what you did.

This is the holy forgiveness we humans should tend to, for if we never will reach it, there is stil a way to make the world a better place through it, thus be closer to God and his will.

Sorry for my late response, I would have liked to be there in the heat of the debate.

There are a few things you must first believe before what you are saying even makes sense.

1. That humans are sinful, or in other words, evil.
2. That there is a judgment day and a hell that we will be cast into if we don't measure up.
3. There is a god that has the power to save us from this fate.

1. People are not good or evil. It is the things that we think, say and do that lead us on a good or evil path.

2. There is not judgment day; there is only today, and today you are judged by the judge that knows all the things you have done. That judge is you.

3. There is no hell other then the one we make. Therefore, to think we are doomed is a dilution.

Hey Shaky, remember when you said, "I have read the bible from the beginning to the end; have you? What about all the good things that we humans have done?" in response to Jesus dying to forgive the sins of man? I'm curious, if I do something nice for you like buy you flowers to make you feel better and then sock you in the face and bust your nose, I don't need to be forgiven because I did something nice right? As long as you don't sin ALL the time, you don't need forgiveness? Or has your wisdom been lost on me?

Of course humans have done many good things. That's why God felt we deserved to have our sins forgiven in the first place. That's why God sent his only son to die for our sins.

okay blah blah forgiveness is a choice ..u forgive and not judge for shaky bustin your nose...lol...then maybe as it says do unto others etc...you will be forgiven for whosever nose u busted...lol...no need to nit pick OR judge...if shaky read the bible from beginning to end then I bet $100 bucks(if I had it) that he forgot half of it at least ...I read revelations 3 times I dont remember a third of it...lol....heck not even a 1/4 of it...lol

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There are a few things you must first believe before what you are saying even makes sense.

1. That humans are sinful, or in other words, evil.
2. That there is a judgment day and a hell that we will be cast into if we don't measure up.
3. There is a god that has the power to save us from this fate.

1. People are not good or evil. It is the things that we think, say and do that lead us on a good or evil path.

2. There is not judgment day; there is only today, and today you are judged by the judge that knows all the things you have done. That judge is you.

3. There is no hell other then the one we make. Therefore, to think we are doomed is a dilution.

It's not because humans are sinful that they are necessarly evil.

Your second and third point only applies for those who beleive in christianity and God. But what about all the other religions, and bouddhism? Forgiveness is omnipresent there too, so it sets out of our human understanding.

On you second 1 to 3 points.

Humans are both good and evil, for they are sinners. You can do good in bad stuff as you can do bad in good stuff.

Your second point refers again to a question; do you beleive? Wether it is like in the biblical scriptures or not, there will be a time when the human race will be destroyed, by angel or time.

For your third point, if you feel bad about something, that means that you haven't done everythign in your power to fix it as best you can. Ask forgiveness, and work hard on your errors, and you will have a happy life. That is what God intends on us all, for those who beleive in him.

Originally posted by FormerMarine07
Hey Shaky, remember when you said, "I have read the bible from the beginning to the end; have you? What about all the good things that we humans have done?" in response to Jesus dying to forgive the sins of man? I'm curious, if I do something nice for you like buy you flowers to make you feel better and then sock you in the face and bust your nose, I don't need to be forgiven because I did something nice right? As long as you don't sin ALL the time, you don't need forgiveness? Or has your wisdom been lost on me?

Of course humans have done many good things. That's why God felt we deserved to have our sins forgiven in the first place. That's why God sent his only son to die for our sins.

So you think it is silly to say that humans are basically good because of all the good things we have done? It is no more silly they to say that we are evil because of all the evil we have done.

Forgiveness will not change your Karma. If you broke my nose, you will spend some time in jail, and forgiveness from me will not change that. It is not necessary for me to forgive you because it will not change the fact that I will not trust you again (if you did brake my nose).

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
okay blah blah forgiveness is a choice ..u forgive and not judge for shaky bustin your nose...lol...then maybe as it says do unto others etc...you will be forgiven for whosever nose u busted...lol...no need to nit pick OR judge...if shaky read the bible from beginning to end then I bet $100 bucks(if I had it) that he forgot half of it at least ...I read revelations 3 times I dont remember a third of it...lol....heck not even a 1/4 of it...lol

It was a long time ago when I read the bible, so yes, I have forgotten a lot of what I read. However, by reading the bible from cover to cover, I have a general idea of what the bible is all about. BTW it was reading all of the bible that started making me question what I was being taught. Most people don't realize that what they have been told in church is not in the bible as a whole.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Next, I think your statements beg the question: do you believe there is no such thing as an innocent victim? If we are responsible for everything that happens in our lives, is it a girl's fault if she is raped? Did she do something in her past that justifies this kind of "punishment" or "justice?"

Maybe Hitler wasn't so bad. The Jews just had done a lot of bad things and the universe chose him to give them their comeuppens.

forgiveness is HAAAAAARD!

well sumtimes, when sum1 has hurt you bad enough. but by nod forgiving, men usually, on the whole, bring bad karma into this world{or create bad karma, however u wanna look at it}. much of the human inflicted suffering in this world, is based on cycles of pain. as they say, hate begets hate, pain begets pain and suffering begets suffering. sure most people would feal it JUSTIFIED or RIGHTEOUS to do harm to sum1 who has done you harm. but if you think about it, harming others isnt an instinct that comes naturally to most men, it is learnt, through being hurt and living around hurt. sure, you cud do the same to the person and not feal any worse, but the thing is, that wont give the peroson any motivation to be better would, it, or those around them who are affected by his suffering, and this in turn would chrn out more suffering and negetivity and soon sum1 else, probably like you, would be victimised and cotinue the circle of violence/negetivity/bad karma. i think to stop it, the only way, is really, to forgive people, it might hurt, and it might pain and it might require a lot of courage, and you may end up with no real reward or satisfaction, but if you can care about unseen others enough, its reason enough to do it, so that others can learn forgiveness from it and stop hurting and being hurt. ofcourse in many individual situations it might seem like this is foolish or useless, and perhaps that is true in some sense, but overall, when eternity faces you both in pats and future, i think its really is the only thing that works. its also probably the place where jesus's teaching of turning and offering the other cheek to the attacker comes from. {which seems quite unpractical to many people, but it has its wisdom nonetheless, atleast to me}

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

Your knowledge of Buddhism is very limited and you are confusing Buddhism with Hinduism.


Excuse me, I have switched the two. My error.

But don't come with hasty conclusions regarding my knowledge when you have seen so few of it. I took classes on my free time about the religions of the world, and I probably know more about those two religions as you. A simple error of context does not erase all that knowledge.
I ask you to stop posting denigrated comments on me, while the issue is forgiveness and God. Is it too much asking? For we may arrive at something with the God issue, but about me, well, you do not know anything, and will probably think I am a lier if I said I was one of the top knowledgable young adults in my country's province. I am already having some hard time here because my knowledge of christianity is limited compared to the other religions I've studied. I am presently reading the Bible and talking to my priests to correct the situation.

Your agressive tone when replying is not welcome with me, and I ask yet again that you leave my knowledge and sense of philosophy and analysis out of this debate, or I will have to retract talking to you. It would be a shame for both of us, for me not being able to continue such a fascinating subject, and for you, who clearly has no idea who he is talking to and what I could eventually bring on the table.

Originally posted by Mandos
I took classes on my free time about them, and probably knows more about those two religions as you.

Shaky is Buddhist so I doubt classes taken in your free time beat his knowledge.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Shaky is Buddhist so I doubt classes taken in your free time beat his knowledge.

In practice, assurely. In theory, maybe not so.

^but you have to admit shaky, we are not all blank states with the ability to think and form reactions about things however we wish. we have some basic intinctual and physical things hardwired very much into us, which make us who we are. take the example of a loved one dying, to most this is a tragerdy and a point of great suffering. yet from a very simplistic buddhist point of view, {i say simplistic because i do not pretend to know the comlications} the person "chooses" to let the loss of a loved one bother them as they allow the reaction of pain and suffering to be correlated with the fact of death that has affected them. and yet, many a times, i think, that isnt a fair judgement, seeing that the person didnt CHOOSE so much to be sad{although i am sure there are quite a few who do andhold onto it very well} as it was based in their very existance from birth, and even if they try to simply give up the sadness, the NATURAL order of things doesnt allow it easily and forces them{i.e. their own nature which they havent created out of thin, objective air} to continue feeling sad about the event.

Getting a little presumptuous, aren't we, shaky? I don't assume anyone is happy or unhappy. And I am all for stepping up and claiming responsibility when one actually is accountable for something. If I screw up at my job and don't process someone's retirement, I am responsible for any suffering or inconvenience they experience in that regard. If a person packing someone's parachute does it wrong and the person dies, it's the packer's fault. However, the retiree is not responsible for errors, coming into the retirement office and submitting all the necessary paperwork and doing everything asked of him/her.

In response to your mother, no one is praising or condemning her decision. Yes. She is responsible for the consequences of that decision, but as the child, are you? That was my point. Is every person that is poor responsible for being poor? It's not calling your mother or any particular person poor. Do the reverse. Is every rich person responsible for their being rich? I just don't think every single aspect of someone's life is within their control. The majority of it is and I don't believe in fate, but there are several factors beyond someone's responsibility or control.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Getting a little presumptuous, aren't we, shaky? I don't assume anyone is happy or unhappy. And I am all for stepping up and claiming responsibility when one actually is accountable for something. If I screw up at my job and don't process someone's retirement, I am responsible for any suffering or inconvenience they experience in that regard. If a person packing someone's parachute does it wrong and the person dies, it's the packer's fault. However, the retiree is not responsible for errors, coming into the retirement office and submitting all the necessary paperwork and doing everything asked of him/her.

In response to your mother, no one is praising or condemning her decision. Yes. She is responsible for the consequences of that decision, but as the child, are you? That was my point. Is every person that is poor responsible for being poor? It's not calling your mother or any particular person poor. Do the reverse. Is every rich person responsible for their being rich? I just don't think every single aspect of someone's life is within their control. The majority of it is and I don't believe in fate, but there are several factors beyond someone's responsibility or control.

That is true, and I don't think there really is a logical explanation for it. It's mystifying how those contradictions interact. Is there a religious answer to such questionning?

Thanks. Is this what "suffering you" is like?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Getting a little presumptuous, aren't we, shaky? I don't assume anyone is happy or unhappy. And I am all for stepping up and claiming responsibility when one actually is accountable for something. If I screw up at my job and don't process someone's retirement, I am responsible for any suffering or inconvenience they experience in that regard. If a person packing someone's parachute does it wrong and the person dies, it's the packer's fault. However, the retiree is not responsible for errors, coming into the retirement office and submitting all the necessary paperwork and doing everything asked of him/her.

In response to your mother, no one is praising or condemning her decision. Yes. She is responsible for the consequences of that decision, but as the child, are you? That was my point. Is every person that is poor responsible for being poor? It's not calling your mother or any particular person poor. Do the reverse. Is every rich person responsible for their being rich? I just don't think every single aspect of someone's life is within their control. The majority of it is and I don't believe in fate, but there are several factors beyond someone's responsibility or control.

So, is responsibility only a negative thing?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Thanks. Is this what "suffering you" is like?

Lol, I hope it wasn't too bad?

Not at all. I love my responsibilities. But they are my responsibilities. My son is a baby right now. I am responsible for his health and development. If, however, he doesn't sit up or crawl at the same age most other babies do, that's not his responsibility, nor is it mine, not if I did everything I could. I learned to talk about the same time most babies do. My brother didn't talk until he was almost 2 and he is of normal intelligence. Does that mean my parents made sure I was talked to a lot and knew my words and just neglected to do that with my brother? No. That's just how things are.

There is a huge psychological argument that has gone on for years as to whether our personalities are a result of nature (how we are born) or or nurture (how we are brought up and the decisions we make). You and I are in agreement that people are responsible for themselves and attitude is everything. However, there are certain elements to a person that are beyond their control, the nature part. Take the study of adopted children and IQ tests. Children that were adopted as babies and raised in a normal family atmosphere were administered an IQ test, along with their adoptive parents and birth parents. Even though the adoptive parents raised the children and provided them good schooling, the children scored closer to the IQs of their birth parents. What is interesting is that their adoptive parents had given them lots of skills and had done wonders with some of them, but there were just certain elements where more credit was due to nature than nurture. You can't dismiss one or the other.

For right now, Mandos, I'm finding you a lot of fun.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
For right now, Mandos, I'm finding you a lot of fun.

Why thank you, I appreciate it .

It's just, my strengh is in diplomacy, and verbal discussions. Not only is my first langage french, I am trying to write as precise as possible in english. So excuse me everyone if sometimes all is not clear. I don't think my english is that bad, but still it's not my french.

So willofthewisp, when do you finish work, we could go grab a cup of coffee?

Originally posted by Mandos
Apologies accepted , and I'll lay down my temper with you

Thank you, and I would recommend to try and not get upset. There are people on this forum who will rip you to threads, if they see you get up set. At times this forum can be like the wild.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Thank you, and I would recommend to try and not get upset. There are people on this forum who will rip you to threads, if they see you get up set. At times this forum can be like the wild.

Where's my Jane?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Not at all. I love my responsibilities. But they are my responsibilities. My son is a baby right now. I am responsible for his health and development. If, however, he doesn't sit up or crawl at the same age most other babies do, that's not his responsibility, nor is it mine, not if I did everything I could. I learned to talk about the same time most babies do. My brother didn't talk until he was almost 2 and he is of normal intelligence. Does that mean my parents made sure I was talked to a lot and knew my words and just neglected to do that with my brother? No. That's just how things are.

There is a huge psychological argument that has gone on for years as to whether our personalities are a result of nature (how we are born) or or nurture (how we are brought up and the decisions we make). You and I are in agreement that people are responsible for themselves and attitude is everything. However, there are certain elements to a person that are beyond their control, the nature part. Take the study of adopted children and IQ tests. Children that were adopted as babies and raised in a normal family atmosphere were administered an IQ test, along with their adoptive parents and birth parents. Even though the adoptive parents raised the children and provided them good schooling, the children scored closer to the IQs of their birth parents. What is interesting is that their adoptive parents had given them lots of skills and had done wonders with some of them, but there were just certain elements where more credit was due to nature than nurture. You can't dismiss one or the other.

For right now, Mandos, I'm finding you a lot of fun.

However, I am only talking about responsibility as it relates to forgiveness. What you have gone into is where my belief in reincarnation comes into play. In effect all the nature things in our life are a direct reflection of our Karma from past lives. But that is how I believe.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, I am only talking about responsibility as it relates to forgiveness. What you have gone into is where my belief in reincarnation comes into play. In effect all the nature things in our life are a direct reflection of our Karma from past lives. But that is how I believe.

Now we're mixing two different religions (well, buddhism ain't a religion, but you get my drift.)

but shaky you didnt reply to my post

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But in a Karmic system there must be a reason for her being raped. Unless balance isn't an issue, in which case the whole system falls apart.

I don't know. Rape is bad, but there have been great people born into this world because of rape. The only thing we can say is we don't know.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but shaky you didnt reply to my post

Sorry. I will go back, later, and read your post.

sumtimes it feals like karma is about making peace with the fact that things are random. this i assume can be partly done by seeing the fact that things only seem random to our conciousness from the perceptive limitations we have. kinda like accepting responsibility for damaging sum1 else's car when your car hit them{making you the LEGAL culprit} even if you were in a situation where it wasnt your FAULT as there was no way your own SENSES could have been aware of it for sumthing coincidental blocked your view. still, i may be way off lol, i never really know. {basically, taking full responsibility for your physical being even if your perceptual being cud not keep up fully with the physical being}

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't know. Rape is bad, but there have been great people born into this world because of rape. The only thing we can say is we don't know.

But not every rape results in a great person and rape is usually devastating for the victim who doesn't always get recompense.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but you have to admit shaky, we are not all blank states with the ability to think and form reactions about things however we wish. we have some basic intinctual and physical things hardwired very much into us, which make us who we are. take the example of a loved one dying, to most this is a tragerdy and a point of great suffering. yet from a very simplistic buddhist point of view, {i say simplistic because i do not pretend to know the comlications} the person "chooses" to let the loss of a loved one bother them as they allow the reaction of pain and suffering to be correlated with the fact of death that has affected them. and yet, many a times, i think, that isnt a fair judgement, seeing that the person didnt CHOOSE so much to be sad{although i am sure there are quite a few who do andhold onto it very well} as it was based in their very existance from birth, and even if they try to simply give up the sadness, the NATURAL order of things doesnt allow it easily and forces them{i.e. their own nature which they havent created out of thin, objective air} to continue feeling sad about the event.

However, that is only true if suffering is always bad. Sometimes it is a good thing to suffer. Buddhism sheds light on where the suffering is coming from. This knowledge that suffering comes from attachments can be used as a way to free your self from suffering, but sometimes suffering is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But not every rape results in a great person and rape is usually devastating for the victim who doesn't always get recompense.

Yes, life is not fair. I do not have an answer to that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
sumtimes it feals like karma is about making peace with the fact that things are random. this i assume can be partly done by seeing the fact that things only seem random to our conciousness from the perceptive limitations we have. kinda like accepting responsibility for damaging sum1 else's car when your car hit them{making you the LEGAL culprit} even if you were in a situation where it wasnt your FAULT as there was no way your own SENSES could have been aware of it for sumthing coincidental blocked your view. still, i may be way off lol, i never really know. {basically, taking full responsibility for your physical being even if your perceptual being cud not keep up fully with the physical being}

I have a thread on Karma. Take a moment and review. That will answer your question better then I could.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447678

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, that is only true if suffering is always bad. Sometimes it is a good thing to suffer. Buddhism sheds light on where the suffering is coming from. This knowledge that suffering comes from attachments can be used as a way to free your self from suffering, but sometimes suffering is the right thing to do.

so attachement isnt always bad in buddhism?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
so attachement isnt always bad in buddhism?

That is correct. Delusion is what is bad.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is correct. Delusion is what is bad.

Oh. That's something that slipped over my mind. You're right.

And life is a delusion, illusion.......not what you think it may be..

It depends how you think.

Originally posted by Mandos
It depends how you think.
Or if...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Or if...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, that is only true if suffering is always bad. Sometimes it is a good thing to suffer. Buddhism sheds light on where the suffering is coming from. This knowledge that suffering comes from attachments can be used as a way to free your self from suffering, but sometimes suffering is the right thing to do.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Buddhism teach that by freeing one's self of attachment and negativity, one can free him/herself from suffering? Maybe good things can come of suffering, but the suffering itself is always bad. When people look back at their experiences to determine whether or not they were positive or negative, they look at what they learned from the suffering. So it seems that it is the aftermath of suffering (the thinking/reflecting stage) rather than the suffering that is good. And some suffering is never good because you might not learn anything from it. Going back to the rape victim, is she supposed to learn a lesson from being raped?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Buddhism teach that by freeing one's self of attachment and negativity, one can free him/herself from suffering? Maybe good things can come of suffering, but the suffering itself is always bad. When people look back at their experiences to determine whether or not they were positive or negative, they look at what they learned from the suffering. So it seems that it is the aftermath of suffering (the thinking/reflecting stage) rather than the suffering that is good. And some suffering is never good because you might not learn anything from it. Going back to the rape victim, is she supposed to learn a lesson from being raped?

Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.

With that, I say Bouddhamen!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

So then, in the case of the rape victim, she was either raped because she had it coming or she is only suffering because she chooses to suffer?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So then, in the case of the rape victim, she was either raped because she had it coming or she is only suffering because she chooses to suffer?

No, what he means is that, by detatching herself from what was out of her control, the so-called rape event, she can cease the pain. Of course, the act is horrible, but everyone has challenges in life. Some are losing a friend, others losing a baby, some losing a part of their bodies, others being raped. It's irrelevant. If you can successfully detach yourself from such things, which is hard, you could attain a certain peace of mind.

That is what I think.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So then, in the case of the rape victim, she was either raped because she had it coming or she is only suffering because she chooses to suffer?

She is suffering because at a very primitive level she has chosen to suffer. That is independent of right or wrong. In the case of a rape, the rape is wrong and evil. The woman, naturally suffers, but if she needed to suffer less, to have a better life, she can choose to not suffer. This is not easy and she might have to go through some kind of ritual to get her self to the point of choosing to not suffer, but it is her choice.

Originally posted by Mandos
No, what he means is that, by detatching herself from what was out of her control, the so-called rape event, she can cease the pain. Of course, the act is horrible, but everyone has challenges in life. Some are losing a friend, others losing a baby, some losing a part of their bodies, others being raped. It's irrelevant. If you can successfully detach yourself from such things, which is hard, you could attain a certain peace of mind.

That is what I think.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison


Ha, but it's an historical moment. You and I agreeing on something. Champagne?

Originally posted by Mandos
Ha, but it's an historical moment. You and I agreeing on something. Champagne?

wine

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.

So if I'm understanding what you're saying, the ideal would be to be free of attachments, but to experience happiness, one must find some sort of balance? Please admit this is a very complex belief system that many people in the Western world find simply alien to their way of thinking, and I'm not saying that at all to be insulting. I'm trying to wrap my head around it and make sense of it.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
So if I'm understanding what you're saying, the ideal would be to be free of attachments, but to experience happiness, one must find some sort of balance? Please admit this is a very complex belief system that many people in the Western world find simply alien to their way of thinking, and I'm not saying that at all to be insulting. I'm trying to wrap my head around it and make sense of it.

When you think about it, people do it all the time. But they do it wrong. Instead of letting go, they keep it inside themselves until they burst of anger, sadness, etc.

Take this principle, and modify it so that instead of keeping it hidden in you, you could just let it go. And it's possible.

But is this the gist of what shaky was saying? I just want to be clear before I start arguing any further. I've had a habit of my sharp retorts backfiring...

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Please admit this is a very complex belief system that many people in the Western world find simply alien to their way of thinking, and I'm not saying that at all to be insulting.
It is not easy. Buddhism is a life practice, not a quick fix.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
But is this the gist of what shaky was saying? I just want to be clear before I start arguing any further. I've had a habit of my sharp retorts backfiring...

That's my point of view, but as it seems in the few last pages, we have practically the same. So I'm assuming that it's allright.

Originally posted by Storm
It is not easy. Buddhism is a life practice, not a quick fix.

I don't personally find any religion a "quick fix" for anything, and all religions are life practices, or at least provide guidelines to how life should be lived.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I don't personally find any religion a "quick fix" for anything, and all religions are life practices, or at least provide guidelines to how life should be lived.

You have to be careful, Buddhism is not categorized as a religion. They don't venerate any God. Like Storm said, it's a way of life.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
So if I'm understanding what you're saying, the ideal would be to be free of attachments, but to experience happiness, one must find some sort of balance? Please admit this is a very complex belief system that many people in the Western world find simply alien to their way of thinking, and I'm not saying that at all to be insulting. I'm trying to wrap my head around it and make sense of it.

You are correct. I know how you feel. It took me a long time to "get it".

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are correct. I know how you feel. It took me a long time to "get it".

There's getting it and there'a pllying it. Getting it is tough, applying it... well, let's just say you have to work.

Originally posted by Mandos
There's getting it and there'a pllying it. Getting it is tough, applying it... well, let's just say you have to work.

Applying it helps in getting it.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I don't personally find any religion a "quick fix" for anything, and all religions are life practices, or at least provide guidelines to how life should be lived.
You have to practice Buddhism to understand Buddhism. Through the experience of Buddhist practice you come to appreciate why it is the way it is. The focus of Buddhism is on practice rather than belief. Simple enquiry does not suffice if you want to learn about Buddhism. Hence "life practice".

Originally posted by Mandos
There's getting it and there'a pllying it. Getting it is tough, applying it... well, let's just say you have to work.

What's complex about "don't hold onto the bad stuff" and "try to balance your life"? That hardly seems like the kind of thing you'd have to found a philosophy on. How hard it is to apply depends entirely on what you are going through. No sensible person is going to tell a rape victim (or the like) to stop suffering by letting go, but a kid who fails a test would probably benefit (in fact parents gave exactly that advice).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What's complex about "don't hold onto the bad stuff" and "try to balance your life"? That hardly seems like the kind of thing you'd have to found a philosophy on. How hard it is to apply depends entirely on what you are going through. No sensible person is going to tell a rape victim (or the like) to stop suffering by letting go, but a kid who fails a test would probably benefit (in fact parents gave exactly that advice).

That is why Buddhism tells the listener how to deal with suffering long before the suffering takes place. To tell a rape victim that they can free them self of their suffering after the act has happened would be a waist of time. However, giving this person the skills and knowledge long before the rape ever takes place would give the person the resources to survive.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.


but isnt the ultimate goal to reach buddhahood and nirvana and isnt nirvana the state of absolutely no attachement??? how can there be no value in nirvana inside buddhism?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but isnt the ultimate goal to reach buddhahood and nirvana and isnt nirvana the state of absolutely no attachement??? how can there be no value in nirvana inside buddhism?

The ultimate goal of Buddhism is a winning life. Also, if Buddhahood and Nirvana were truly free of attachments, then no Buddhas would ever return to the Earth to guide the rest of us.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The ultimate goal of Buddhism is a winning life. Also, if Buddhahood and Nirvana were truly free of attachments, then no Buddhas would ever return to the Earth to guide the rest of us.

Maybe they don't then...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Maybe they don't then...

I consider Jesus to be one of these Buddhas.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I consider Jesus to be one of these Buddhas.

Jesus? Buddhas? Aren,t they new sauces you can put in your tacos?

Originally posted by Mandos
Jesus? Buddhas? Aren,t they new sauces you can put in your tacos?

You have insulted a majority of people on the Earth, just now. Fortunately, the Buddhist will not care, however, some of the Christians will hunt you down and...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You have insulted a majority of people on the Earth, just now. Fortunately, the Buddhist will not care, however, some of the Christians will hunt you down and...

It's allright, I await them inside MY God... a TANK!

Originally posted by Mandos
It's allright, I await them inside MY God... a TANK!

If they're American Fundamentalists...then they will Nuke you...even if they are right next to you.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
If they're American Fundamentalists...then they will Nuke you...even if they are right next to you.

Well then, at least I'll see one last firework before passing away.

Originally posted by Mandos
Well then, at least I'll see one last firework before passing away.

Thats how Eva Braun rationalised it.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Thats how Eva Braun rationalised it.

Lol, I ain't a dumb blond following like a dog.

Wow, to add an American Christian's perspective into this, no one is shooting down anyone. I was intrigued rather than insulted by shaky's statement that he believes Jesus was one of the Buddhas. It's fascinating to learn how he is perceived by other cultures and belief systems. That doesn't change the fact I believe he is God.

Mandos, I have a feeling this isn't the first time you saw fireworks with someone...

I think if any lesson can be learned from these threads, it's that the world's stereotypes about countries and religions are just that, stereotypes. I've learned so much about people here and it's broadened my horizons. I certainly hope I've represented Americans and Christians as something other than Bible-toting idiots ready to form a lynch mob. We try to be as understanding and as compassionate as we can be and at the same time defend our faith when it is flat-out ridiculed.

There is a theory that Jesus travelled to India where he studied Hinduism and Buddhism.

Very plausible since the Bible doesn't really mention how Jesus spent his time between when he was 12 and about 30. A lot of people assume the worst, but aside from just helping the family out by doing carpentry work, it would be a very good thing to go and explore the world, really interact with as many people as possible. Studying those ways of life and getting to know people from other regions is in no way counterproductive to Jesus' mission.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Very plausible since the Bible doesn't really mention how Jesus spent his time between when he was 12 and about 30. A lot of people assume the worst, but aside from just helping the family out by doing carpentry work, it would be a very good thing to go and explore the world, really interact with as many people as possible. Studying those ways of life and getting to know people from other regions is in no way counterproductive to Jesus' mission.

Joseph... took care of him...

Originally posted by Mandos
Joseph... took care of him...

How do you know that?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
If they're American Fundamentalists...then they will Nuke you...even if they are right next to you.

Then they go to heaven and get their 73 virgins.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How do you know that?

It is said that from the age of 12 to 20, Jesus walked funny. I could only suspect Joseph... forged him very well.

Originally posted by Mandos
It is said that from the age of 12 to 20, Jesus walked funny. I could only suspect Joseph... forged him very well.

And is that in the bible?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And is that in the bible?

That's the true reason why God is against sodomy.

Originally posted by Mandos
That's the true reason why God is against sodomy.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The ultimate goal of Buddhism is a winning life. Also, if Buddhahood and Nirvana were truly free of attachments, then no Buddhas would ever return to the Earth to guide the rest of us.

but isnt that why you have boddhisvatas, those who cud buddhahood but intentionally remain behind because they do not want to go alone while the wrest of humanity suffers. i do not think, relegiously, that buddhas are resincarnated. thats what nirvana means, escaping the cycle of death and rebirth.

Originally posted by Mandos
It is said that from the age of 12 to 20, Jesus walked funny. I could only suspect Joseph... forged him very well.

2 possibilities arise from that statement

1: josep sodomised jesus

2: jesus is a robot created by joseph with a flaw in his leg design

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but isnt that why you have boddhisvatas, those who cud buddhahood but intentionally remain behind because they do not want to go alone while the wrest of humanity suffers. i do not think, relegiously, that buddhas are resincarnated. thats what nirvana means, escaping the cycle of death and rebirth.

You are correct on the mythology, my bad. Bodhisattvas are what are returning, not Buddhas. However, I hope you realize that this is just mythology, and should not be taken literally.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
2 possibilities arise from that statement

1: josep sodomised jesus

2: jesus is a robot created by joseph with a flaw in his leg design

You forgot a thrid:

3. Joseph's yell of pleasure towards the sky created Heaven, and Jesus's agonising anal scream of distress faceing the Earth created Hell.

Originally posted by Mandos
You forgot a thrid:

3. Joseph's yell of pleasure towards the sky created Heaven, and Jesus's agonising anal scream of distress faceing the Earth created Hell.



...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
2 possibilities arise from that statement

1: josep sodomised jesus

2: jesus is a robot created by joseph with a flaw in his leg design

Or maybe Jesus just pulled a hamstring while forcibly sodomizing his father.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
...

It's horrible, but beautiful... at least creative?

Originally posted by Mandos
It's horrible, but beautiful... at least creative?

Sacrilege is the word i was thinking of...

(nah im not that serious haha)

Though, i would be a hyprocrite if I said I approved...

To read or think on your own is sacrilege. To have a mind makes that statement true also.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are correct on the mythology, my bad. Bodhisattvas are what are returning, not Buddhas. However, I hope you realize that this is just mythology, and should not be taken literally.

yes but isnt that also buddhism, mythology or reality?{that wud generally be between the view point u take as most people wud see it, buddhists wud claim that much of these fundamentals are real while non buddhists wud probably say that they are mythology} why do u, being a buddhist, think that sumthin that central is mythology?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but isnt that also buddhism, mythology or reality?{that wud generally be between the view point u take as most people wud see it, buddhists wud claim that much of these fundamentals are real while non buddhists wud probably say that they are mythology} why do u, being a buddhist, think that sumthin that central is mythology?

No one can know the true nature of reality. However, we live in the true nature of reality. Mythology is the way we communicate the glimpses we have of this true nature.

Because something is mythology does not mean it is a lie. It only means that what we know cannot be conveyed in an easily understandable way. Mythology allows us to understand something that cannot be understood. It is like describing a color to a blind man; no matter how you describe the color, the blind man will never see it.

^but isnt abstraction and emotive quotation/creating parallels between some common experience, a better way to convey that partially unconveyable expirience? i mean, very often mythology can be vastly misrepresentative and manipulative. also, y do u think sumthing that central to buddhism is mythology?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but isnt abstraction and emotive quotation/creating parallels between some common experience, a better way to convey that partially unconveyable expirience? i mean, very often mythology can be vastly misrepresentative and manipulative. also, y do u think sumthing that central to buddhism is mythology?

Why do you think that what happen to you after you die is central to Buddhism? Buddhism is not about the after life; Buddhism is about life. The reason for mythology is to convey information from one generation to the next. Mythology is not about the supernatural; it is about the human condition over time. There is no other way to convey information over thousands of years.

The mythology of Buddhism, or any mythology, is not stand alone. You have to have a practice, and study. Then mythology can open your mind to information that is as old as the human race.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Sacrilege is the word i was thinking of...

(nah im not that serious haha)

Though, i would be a hyprocrite if I said I approved...

Srry, it will be a one time only

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do you think that what happen to you after you die is central to Buddhism? Buddhism is not about the after life; Buddhism is about life. The reason for mythology is to convey information from one generation to the next. Mythology is not about the supernatural; it is about the human condition over time. There is no other way to convey information over thousands of years.

The mythology of Buddhism, or any mythology, is not stand alone. You have to have a practice, and study. Then mythology can open your mind to information that is as old as the human race.

true, as that may be. what i was actually asking you was why you considered it MYTHOLOGY and not FACT, seeing as your a buddhist urself.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
true, as that may be. what i was actually asking you was why you considered it MYTHOLOGY and not FACT, seeing as your a buddhist urself.

The answer is simple; I always discount people who seem to know what happens to us after we die. That is information that us humans can never have, including myself.

What about NDE? They are all different from all walks of life? When I read all of them I come to the conclusion that it is different from one person to the other, yet none said it was a "Nothing experience."