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The less you know, the happier you are. Is it possible to consider knowledge a curse?

I think knowledge is a double-edged sword, but not a curse- at least if it is it is worth it.

man, people keep making threads like this

knowledge = power. I don't know where we lost that....

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I think knowledge is a double-edged sword, but not a curse- at least if it is it is worth it. Ditto.

It hurts to think...lol..now if it was like the matrix just jak in and instantly gain knowledge that would be kewl...although guess you lose the wisdom that goes with experience that way?..lol

Read the sig

Originally posted by inimalist
knowledge = power. I don't know where we lost that....

And yet it so rarely works out that way.

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
It hurts to think...lol..now if it was like the matrix just jak in and instantly gain knowledge that would be kewl...although guess you lose the wisdom that goes with experience that way?..lol
Speaking of the Matrix...red pill or blue pill?

what happens if I take both..lol

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
what happens if I take both..lol

This.

I would like to be a cat

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And yet it so rarely works out that way. Oh that's just stupid.

Who are the winners in history?

Nelson was an amazing fighter, very intellectual, and won in Waterloo.

Bill Clinton was a very intelligent person politically, he won the 1992 election when the last guy lost in a landslide.

Who always wins arguments over the internet? The deeply intellectuals, or the parrots who sprout out ancient claims?

Knowledge is clearly power.

Knowledge + Money = Power.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Oh that's just stupid.

Who are the winners in history?

Nelson was an amazing fighter, very intellectual, and won in Waterloo.

Bill Clinton was a very intelligent person politically, he won the 1992 election when the last guy lost in a landslide.

Who always wins arguments over the internet? The deeply intellectuals, or the parrots who sprout out ancient claims?

Knowledge is clearly power.

Athens vs Sparta

PhD Candidate vs Man with Club

Rome vs Germanic Tribes

Fundamentalist Christianity vs Science

Extremist Islam vs Stock Brokers

Abraham Lincoln vs John Wilkes Booth


It's fairly stupid to claim that knowledge is power in anything but a very small number of circumstances. Technology is power. Influence is power. Knowledge is exploited by those who want actual power and then cast aside.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Athens vs Sparta

PhD Candidate vs Man with Club

Rome vs Germanic Tribes

Fundamentalist Christianity vs Science

Extremist Islam vs Stock Brokers

Abraham Lincoln vs John Wilkes Booth


It's fairly stupid to claim that knowledge is power in anything but a very small number of circumstances. Technology is power. Influence is power. Knowledge is exploited by those who want actual power and then cast aside. Don't get what Athens and Sparta have to do with it.

PhD candidates aren't necessarily knowledgeable, and it's ridiculous to make that argument since that's not what inimalist is saying. Think of it more as Kung Fu expert vs man with club.

Again, I'm not seeing the point made here. The Holy Roman Empire took control of the germanic tribes because they knew how to fight better. They had more knowledge in the art of fighting.

Science has won everytime against fundamentalist christianity. The only places where creationism is taught are where there is little to no scientists.

Not seeing the connection.

John Wilkes Booth had the knowledge to shoot him in the back of the head. Lincoln had the knowledge that anyone who shot him would be severly punished.

Knowledge is power.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And yet it so rarely works out that way.

for instance?

Originally posted by inimalist
for instance?

Rome destroyed by barbarians. The well educated Lincoln murdered by Boothe. All credit for Penicillin going to Fleming rather than the people how made it a viable drug. Fundamentalist Christians that formed their beliefs with limited knowledge having far more influence that brilliant intellectuals. A kung-fu master being shot dead by a rookie cop.

Knowledge is much too broad and abstract to make the statement that "knowledge is power" without falling back onto constant demands that knowledge be regarded as something different in each circumstance in order to make it true. You could reasonably say that "superiority is power" but that ends up being somewhat circular.

Originally posted by Becci
The less you know, the happier you are. Is it possible to consider knowledge a curse?

I consider knowledge to be an advantage.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Rome destroyed by barbarians. The well educated Lincoln murdered by Boothe. All credit for Penicillin going to Fleming rather than the people how made it a viable drug. Fundamentalist Christians that formed their beliefs with limited knowledge having far more influence that brilliant intellectuals. A kung-fu master being shot dead by a rookie cop.

Knowledge is much too broad and abstract to make the statement that "knowledge is power" without falling back onto constant demands that knowledge be regarded as something different in each circumstance in order to make it true. You could reasonably say that "superiority is power" but that ends up being somewhat circular.

I don't see how those are examples of knowledge not being power. It seems you have chosen situations where knowledge is moot. If you want, I can go over them individually, but I think you are reading too much into the statement.

I don't think inherent in that statement is knowledge = invincibility...

knowledge opens up options. The more you know, the more you are able to do or articulate, and thus, the more individual power you have. Violence is also a form of power, and largely much more capable of killing people than knowledge. I think using knowledge to have the most violent technology is probably good, but this is extremely tangential from what I was saying. I was speaking of individual emancipation, not about universal guiding princiapls of society and human behaviour....

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't see how those are examples of knowledge not being power. It seems you have chosen situations where knowledge is moot.

If it can be rendered useless again and again it's a fairly poor source of power, IMO.

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't think inherent in that statement is knowledge = invincibility...

No, but the idea that knowledge is power would certainly seem to translate into knowledge gives the ability for success. That seems terribly abstract to me.

I'll use the Flemming example:

His total contribution to Penicillin was finding it making a note and eventually deciding he couldn't use it. Florey and Chain made it into a useful drug that altered the landscape of medicine and war. Flemming, Florey and Chain shared the Nobel Prize but Flemming's particular charisma is why we credit him with giving the world penicillin.

This covers knowledge of how to observe, knowledge of chemistry and knowledge of self-promotion. Any level of power gained by Florey and Chain was completely lost in the face of self-promotion. Knowledge simply covers too many things, IMO, to say that knowledge, in a general sense, gives one power.

Originally posted by inimalist
knowledge opens up options. The more you know, the more you are able to do or articulate, and thus, the more individual power you have. Violence is also a form of power, and largely much more capable of killing people than knowledge. I think using knowledge to have the most violent technology is probably good, but this is extremely tangential from what I was saying.

I was speaking of individual emancipation, not about universal guiding princiapls of society and human behaviour....

I completely missed that. Yes, I would agree that control, power and improvement in one's own life is dependent almost entirely on knowledge.

know enough to succeed in life.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If it can be rendered useless again and again it's a fairly poor source of power, IMO.

i think we are using radically different definitions of the word "power"

at the very least, I was never comparing it to other types of power. I don't think there is much more powerful than fear, so the guy with the most guns obviously has the most power, in a sort of large group/geo-political sense.

Also, how is knowledge even relevant in a situation where someone is shot?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, but the idea that knowledge is power would certainly seem to translate into knowledge gives the ability for success. That seems terribly abstract to me.

I'll use the Flemming example:

His total contribution to Penicillin was finding it making a note and eventually deciding he couldn't use it. Florey and Chain made it into a useful drug that altered the landscape of medicine and war. Flemming, Florey and Chain shared the Nobel Prize but Flemming's particular charisma is why we credit him with giving the world penicillin.

This covers knowledge of how to observe, knowledge of chemistry and knowledge of self-promotion. Any level of power gained by Florey and Chain was completely lost in the face of self-promotion. Knowledge simply covers too many things, IMO, to say that knowledge, in a general sense, gives one power.

but again, you are using such radical interpretations of what power is. Knowledge gave them the power to make penicillin.

being more noticed by the public was not really a knowledge thing, unless Flemming like, went out of his way to usurp the notoriety from his colleagues. Even then, access to media outlets and other such things, like his charisma, would probably be much more important than how much knowledge they have.

Did I say somewhere that knowledge is the only form of power? or that all power comes from knowledge?

Knowledge can be a curse and a blessing. Knowledge of practical things, such as wearing sunscreen when going to the beach on a sunny day, mostly serves to bring us happiness or atleast avoid pain.

Knowledge of more esoteric subjects such as philosophy has brought many people much sorrow. We as individuals are expressions of certain values, if we question those values through reasoning and knowledge we can become confused and 'lose our way'. I would think that at the theoretical end of knowledge, one would be content again much like at the beginning of knowledge, but I can only guess at that as I havent gotten there yet .

lol

I don't get it... How can knowing something be worse than ignorance... I don't feel that ignorant bliss is good at all.

I was watching a discussion between Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens on youtube, and there was a part where they were talking about whether or not there were some truths they would not publish for fear that the illusion was better for humanity. They all hummed and hawed about how comforting some beliefs are and how people use them and need them.

**** that. All knowledge is beneficial. The knowledge of how to create viral weapons that can eliminate all mankind is of the upmost importance, knowledge of how alone each individual is and how little control they have over the universe and themselves is very important. If it scares you or makes you sad, man, I just don't feel that...

Just not knowing, or not wanting to know, for whatever reason, that is what depresses me.

I think you mean is intelligence a curse, assuming so.

Intelligence brings pain, intelligence brings the realization of how harsh the world is. Intelligence lets you see that you are not the person you tell yourself you are in your mind. That your heroes are not as real as their image says they are.

It tells you the strain around your father's eyes, means he is dying. That despite how much you like your best friend and how funny she is, she's a whore. Knowledge tells you everything is gonna get alot worst, where all your heart tells you it's gonna get better. Intelligence tells you that your dreams are out of reach because of the hand you were given at birth. And intelligence tells you all of your downfalls are your own fault.

It's more of a curse then a blessing.
But i'd rather live outside of the matrix then in it, if you catch my drift.

I think you are confusing nihilistic pessimism with intelligence

seeing the natural order of things as beautiful yet tragic is not difficult

Originally posted by inimalist
How can knowing something be worse than ignorance.

By giving a few moments of happiness or allowing a sense of curiosity.

Originally posted by inimalist
I was watching a discussion between Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens on youtube, and there was a part where they were talking about whether or not there were some truths they would not publish for fear that the illusion was better for humanity. They all hummed and hawed about how comforting some beliefs are and how people use them and need them.

Could you send me a link to that? It sounds interesting.

Originally posted by inimalist
**** that. All knowledge is beneficial. The knowledge of how to create viral weapons that can eliminate all mankind is of the upmost importance, knowledge of how alone each individual is and how little control they have over the universe and themselves is very important.

How are either of those things (well mainly the second since I can already see the reason for the firs) beneficial, important or relevant to people?

Originally posted by inimalist
If it scares you or makes you sad, man, I just don't feel that...

Maybe you're just nuts

Originally posted by inimalist
Just not knowing, or not wanting to know, for whatever reason, that is what depresses me.

But as an educated person you must know that no matter how much you know you still will never learn even a fraction of what there is to know.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
By giving a few moments of happiness or allowing a sense of curiosity.

obviously curiosity is important, but, and this is personal of course, it is finding an finality to that curiosity, in understanding another layer of complexity on the world or some esoteric minutia. Its what I live for, so likely that is why I can't fathom something else

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Could you send me a link to that? It sounds interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E

part 1/12, all 12 are on youtube, really good. Found myself wanting to yell at the screen in a bunch of places....

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How are either of those things (well mainly the second since I can already see the reason for the firs) beneficial, important or relevant to people?

I would argue that any knowledge is valuable in itself...

for practical reasons, I can see why some knowledge could even be detrimental, like if said virus was known by Al Qaeda or another such organization. However, knowing viral warfare might one day save us from viral warfare. If we understand the possible uses and spread of viral weapons, we can prepare to stop them. Its a weird example that I picked as a fairly blatant example of knowledge that might not be good, however, in this case I would say it is the application of such knowledge, and not its existence, that can be bad.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Maybe you're just nuts

almost certainly the case

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But as an educated person you must know that no matter how much you know you still will never learn even a fraction of what there is to know.

indeed, which is the most highly motivating factor for me

Originally posted by inimalist
I think you are confusing nihilistic pessimism with intelligence

seeing the natural order of things as beautiful yet tragic is not difficult

your right you can see the beauty in the world, but i have encountered more tragedy then beauty .

I don't know maybe it comes down to that we have lead different lives and therefore have not seen the same things.

Originally posted by inimalist
obviously curiosity is important, but, and this is personal of course, it is finding an finality to that curiosity, in understanding another layer of complexity on the world or some esoteric minutia. Its what I live for, so likely that is why I can't fathom something else

Makes sense.

Originally posted by inimalist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E

part 1/12, all 12 are on youtube, really good. Found myself wanting to yell at the screen in a bunch of places....

Thanks.



Originally posted by inimalist
I would argue that any knowledge is valuable in itself...

Knowledge of determinism (your second example) isn't useful. Even if it were absolutely provable it wouldn't be applicable to anything. There is no value in knowledge that cannot be used and has no effect on action.

Originally posted by inimalist
for practical reasons, I can see why some knowledge could even be detrimental, like if said virus was known by Al Qaeda or another such organization. However, knowing viral warfare might one day save us from viral warfare. If we understand the possible uses and spread of viral weapons, we can prepare to stop them. Its a weird example that I picked as a fairly blatant example of knowledge that might not be good, however, in this case I would say it is the application of such knowledge, and not its existence, that can be bad.

Ya, figured that out.

Originally posted by inimalist
I think you are confusing nihilistic pessimism with intelligence

seeing the natural order of things as beautiful yet tragic is not difficult

Meh thats where I have to disagree. Lets look at the holocaust for instance, I have no desire to go over the details of what happened then and Im sure you know alot of the details already. Do you really believe that such an event is permissable? And while the holocaust is probably the most potent example of human suffering in recent memory, it is nothing compared to the combined suffering of all beings in the history of the world human or otherwise.

Nature is not merciful, not at all. Knowledge of this, and the knowledge that as an individual you can do little to change events, can only lead to sorrow. To most individuals, this knowledge is manifested in the death of a loved one, though intellectuals who are capable of understanding the grand scale of things have an even greater weight on their shoulders. The only protection is ignorance, or to believe in false rationalizations. Thats why I say that some forms of knowledge are a curse. That is not to say that all forms of knowledge are a curse of course, most forms of knowledge are quite beneficial to the well being of humanity.

And I'll grant that the search of knowledge and following all possible paths of reasoning is a noble goal, but like anything it has a price. Most people enjoy their childhoods more than any other time in their life, and that is due to their ignorance during that period. Animals are almost completely ignorant, and as such they are the most pure expression of life. They are entirely content with their roles. Can any human match that, much less a philosopher? I dont think its possible. But I could be wrong .

Originally posted by Nerevar
Meh thats where I have to disagree. Lets look at the holocaust for instance, I have no desire to go over the details of what happened then and Im sure you know alot of the details already. Do you really believe that such an event is permissable? And while the holocaust is probably the most potent example of human suffering in recent memory, it is nothing compared to the combined suffering of all beings in the history of the world human or otherwise.

Nature is not merciful, not at all. Knowledge of this, and the knowledge that as an individual you can do little to change events, can only lead to sorrow. To most individuals, this knowledge is manifested in the death of a loved one, though intellectuals who are capable of understanding the grand scale of things have an even greater weight on their shoulders. The only protection is ignorance, or to believe in false rationalizations. Thats why I say that some forms of knowledge are a curse. That is not to say that all forms of knowledge are a curse of course, most forms of knowledge are quite beneficial to the well being of humanity.

And I'll grant that the search of knowledge and following all possible paths of reasoning is a noble goal, but like anything it has a price. Most people enjoy their childhoods more than any other time in their life, and that is due to their ignorance during that period. Animals are almost completely ignorant, and as such they are the most pure expression of life. They are entirely content with their roles. Can any human match that, much less a philosopher? I dont think its possible. But I could be wrong .

so what you are saying isn't nihilistic pessimism?

well, thanks for telling me I don't actually feel the way I feel

good luck with being ignorant

Damn some of you guys are depressed

i'm not

Originally posted by chithappens
some

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Knowledge of determinism (your second example) isn't useful. Even if it were absolutely provable it wouldn't be applicable to anything. There is no value in knowledge that cannot be used and has no effect on action.

1) Even if it is possible for a single fact to have no use (which I will address below) the knowledge has value. This is obviously a personal belief, but I don't feel that I should have to put what I know into action (or even be able to) for it to be beneficial for me to know it. Less ignorance is, in itself, a goal and has, at the very least personal, value.

2) I cannot fathom any knowledge that would not have practical use. The most important caveat here being that your or my failure to think of a practical use does not disqualify it from having one. With the specifics of determinism, there is plenty that could be used. For instance, lets talk about atomic determinism before neurological (although the points are generally the same, and, imho, can be extended to anything that one might think is impractical knowledge), the science and technology that would be required to run an experiment where determinism could be accurately tested themselves are beneficial. The entire process of a research programme to predict the movement of electrons and atoms within the human body would produce leaps and bounds in technology that would have direct practical impact on society. For instance, to properly track all such atoms, I dont remember the exact figures, but it would take a super computer taller than several light years.

Originally posted by inimalist
so what you are saying isn't nihilistic pessimism?

well, thanks for telling me I don't actually feel the way I feel

good luck with being ignorant

No its not nihilistic pessimism. Nihilism is the belief that the world is meaningless. Im not arguing that we should all crawl up in a corner somewhere and wallow in despair. I was just giving you the truth of the matter, and if you want to dismiss it than you are proving my point correct that ignorance is bliss.



Yeah my post was rather gloomy, but it was necessary since we are discussing the suffering of the world after all. Im not depressed on the whole, though some subjects obviously arent very cheerful to think about. Which was my point all along.

Originally posted by Nerevar
No its not nihilistic pessimism. Nihilism is the belief that the world is meaningless. Im not arguing that we should all crawl up in a corner somewhere and wallow in despair. I was just giving you the truth of the matter, and if you want to dismiss it than you are proving my point correct that ignorance is bliss.


lol

oh, you were just telling me the truth of the matter of how I feel about ignorance?

well, glad you cleared that up for me, I was having trouble deciding how I value things personally

It probably is
if you're only surrounded by dumb-asses.

Knowledge is a gift, wonder is the curse.

knowledge is not a curse because it equals power.