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Is it? There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt. So technically, death is painless, or at least the moment of death.
In this sense, does that mean that murder isnt really a crime, at least not to the "victim"? The real victims are those who feel pain, are they not?

Your views?

Unless you can prove the person would rather have been dead than alive it's still a crime.

Yes, but if death is a complete neutral, with no pain and no joy, it can easily be proved if one suffered more in life than celebrated, they would be better off dead, and almost all humans suffer more in life.

Well IMHO a death with no afterlife is the worst fate possible...

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Yes, but if death is a complete neutral, with no pain and no joy, it can easily be proved if one suffered more in life than celebrated, they would be better off dead, and almost all humans suffer more in life.

Yes, but most people prefer life in spite of it's ups and down. Death has no ups at all, the lack of downs is meaningless since the inability to have any good experiences the almost worst possible fate possible. People who survive suicide attempts consistently tell researchers that they regretted it the moment they jumped or whatever. Killing is still a crime with a victim. That doesn't mean that someone's passing cannot be an occasion for celebration (which it is in some culture, though only Klingons come to mind at the moment) but that celebration is of the person's life not of "lucky him, being brutally murdered and all".

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Yes, but if death is a complete neutral, with no pain and no joy, it can easily be proved if one suffered more in life than celebrated, they would be better off dead, and almost all humans suffer more in life.

That's not the point, though. Someone might be "better off" dead, but that doesn't mean they would want to be dead, and that also invovles all of the people who knew the person who died... so yeah, even if you're doing that person a favor by killing, you're also causing a whole lot of grief to friends, kids, spouses, relatives etc.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Yes, but if death is a complete neutral, with no pain and no joy, it can easily be proved if one suffered more in life than celebrated, they would be better off dead, and almost all humans suffer more in life. All humans suffer more in life? Is there like an ultimate suffering scale i wasn't aware of?

There's no pain, but there's no pleasure either. It's absolute zero on a hyperthetical scale.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Is it? There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt. So technically, death is painless, or at least the moment of death.
In this sense, does that mean that murder isnt really a crime, at least not to the "victim"? The real victims are those who feel pain, are they not?

Your views? Well only if they have the persons permission then it is not murder. Maybe they enjoy the ups and downs that this life gives them and only sees it as an experience.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Is it? There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt. So technically, death is painless, or at least the moment of death.
In this sense, does that mean that murder isnt really a crime, at least not to the "victim"? The real victims are those who feel pain, are they not?

Your views?

Murder is a crime through and through. Claiming that you're "liberating" someone who didn't want to die is sick. And the fact that the survivors are the ones who feel the pain is bad enough in itself.

If its murder then the death was clearly involuntary. Meaning yes, it is that bad. Should that really be up to you, to decide when another person dies?

"The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive."

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Is it? There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt. So technically, death is painless, or at least the moment of death.
In this sense, does that mean that murder isnt really a crime, at least not to the "victim"? The real victims are those who feel pain, are they not?

Your views?

Where did you find out what happens after death...,do you have a link?

Death to me is only painful, if I hadn't accomplish enough to fullfill life. We only have one life to live; best to make the most of it. Living a life without being loved is also painful after you die. We can't live in a world without family and friends.

Its mostly the emotional stuff that scares me. The pain in death is of course a big thing as well. We fear what we can't explain.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt.


Death could be the best thing that could happen to anyone, or it could be the worst. Its not knowing which makes death scary and uncomprahensable.

You don't know wheather there is anything after or not. You can believe that there is nothing, and that is fine, but its certainly not the fact, which by the tone of your post, appears you're enforcing it as such.

omfg

so this is the same logic as "sex is good, so rape can't be bad"

which is to say, the thread starter has no idea why things are considered a crime, or even morally bad.

Death itself imo is good, but acts that lead to it may be bad especialy murder, and more so murder of someone who didnt want to be so.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Is it? There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt. So technically, death is painless, or at least the moment of death.
In this sense, does that mean that murder isnt really a crime, at least not to the "victim"? The real victims are those who feel pain, are they not?

Your views?

Your partly right. People view death as bad mostly because of genetic bias which forces us to feel that way. Looking at death from an unbiased point of view, many people would be better off that way. There is still the crime that by taking somones life you rob them of any positive experiences they may of had, and of course no one should have the right to decide whether somone else dies anyway. It is a decision that the individual must make.

Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around who tranform into the force.

Death is unavoidable, but there are many fates worse than death IMO. That's why I have a living will.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around who tranform into the force. *cough*Nerd!*cough* Nah, just kidding. You know I love you.

But yeah. Prove that death is the end of suffering and I'd agree to stop worrying. But props to the Klown for his truthiness.

What amuses me is the fact that you all seem to be talking like you know exactly what death in-tales, as you don't i think it'd be safe to consider wether or not you can judge why it's good or bad for other people

Life is what you make of it. If you'd rather succumb to absolute nothingness than stand up on your own two feet and get over whatever problems you have now, or have had in the past, then shame on you. Life could be great if people grew up once in a while.

The joy of doing something great, or finding a happy lifestyle, or knowing that you'll be loved and remembered. That, to me, seems too much to give up just because my childhood wasn't the best, or my school life wasn't the best, or simply because bad things happen. So, yes, death really is so bad (if there's nothing afterwards). To give up all possibilities just because you can be hurt or have gotten hurt sounds totally weak-willed and short-sighted to me.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Is death possibly that bad? Well, could be. LOL

Originally posted by lilmisskitten
What amuses me is the fact that you all seem to be talking like you know exactly what death in-tales, as you don't i think it'd be safe to consider wether or not you can judge why it's good or bad for other people

What amuses me is the fact that you altered the word "entails" to read as "in-tales". Really got a chuckle out of me.

I really hate it when my nails break. Now that is like a preempt to mild death. It just makes my day all sucky and stuff.

It doesn't matter whether death is bad or not because it's going to happen regardless of whether or not you want it to.

I know it beats making out with larry king whilst leaning up against a car.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around who tranform into the force.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Where did you find out what happens after death...,do you have a link?

I thought it was awful last time too.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Is Death Really So Bad?

Dunno not tried it yet, if you meet someone who knows ask em and let us know.

A movie phrase comes to mind "the dead know one thing, its better to be alive".

eastern wisdom traditions always say that there is no boundary between death and birth. even in the gospel of saint thomas, jesus says that the only way to enter the kingdom of heaven is if the binary opposition that we draw in this world is destroyed. as long as you keep thinking of death as one side of the coin then you're really missing the point. reducing life/death to either pain or pleasure is not an answer.

People should have power over when they die so ofcourse murder is a crime.
And yes there is still pain after most death's.
The human brain is shown to op operate for up to 5 seconds after decapitation.
Thats more than long enough to think about what just happened and how much physical and emotional pain your in before it all ends.

Originally posted by bogen

The human brain is shown to op operate for up to 5 seconds after decapitation.

lol, and where do you think they are doing that research?

I guess the value in death depends on the value in your life. Is death all that bad? How good is your life?

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, and where do you think they are doing that research?

At Dr Herbert West special research centre.

there was a french scientist who wanted to prove that you don't immediately die after decapitation and his "lab experiment" (for lack of better term) was that upon being guilotined his assistant would measure the number of times his eyes blinked. well, i dont remember the count exactlyt but it was 30 something.
as Ash would say: groovy!

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
there was a french scientist who wanted to prove that you don't immediately die after decapitation and his "lab experiment" (for lack of better term) was that upon being guilotined his assistant would measure the number of times his eyes blinked. well, i dont remember the count exactlyt but it was 30 something.
as Ash would say: groovy!

~Sado

aside from the major methodological problems, I'm fairly skeptical that this ever occurred.

it is interesting though, and I've heard the legends from the Reign of Terror days in France

The thought of death is worse than death it self. Unless you are a being tortured or drowning or burning alive or...

Originally posted by Magee
The thought of death is worse than death it self. Unless you are a being tortured or drowning or burning alive or...

..being raped by a gang of gorillas whilst nasty stinger ants crawl into your orifices and are eating you from the inside.

i'd be skeptical if someone told me that counting the number of times someone blinks requires methodology
its a known fact that we don't die immediately after beheading. so is the fact that being shot in the head doesn't instantly kill you because there are so many parts of the brain that are actually independent of other parts. that's what lobotomy was all about. Phineas Gage was a prime example of that fact.
but, i digress.

Originally posted by Sado22
i'd be skeptical if someone told me that counting the number of times someone blinks requires methodology
its a known fact that we don't die immediately after beheading. so is the fact that being shot in the head doesn't instantly kill you because there are so many parts of the brain that are actually independent of other parts. that's what lobotomy was all about. Phineas Gage was a prime example of that fact.
but, i digress.

do you want me to spell it out or are you just being cute?

Death holds no fear for me.. life on the other hand often sucks..

please do. i'm curious.

Originally posted by kitkateternal
Death holds no fear for me.. life on the other hand often sucks..

In which case you can kill yourself and spare the rest of the world your saccharine beliefs about death.

In which case you can kill yourself and spare the rest of the world your saccharine beliefs about death.



You assume I havent tried.. we cant be good at everything.

Originally posted by Sado22
please do. i'm curious.

ok, but I'm going to put your points into a different order for some narrative purposes.

Originally posted by Sado22
so is the fact that being shot in the head doesn't instantly kill you because there are so many parts of the brain that are actually independent of other parts. that's what lobotomy was all about. Phineas Gage was a prime example of that fact.


Life and Death

You raise a good point here, but fail to elaborate it. Whenever science or scientists talk about death in absolute terms, one HAS to question the nature of life itself. In this case, the bio-philosophical consideration is, is an organism alive, or are it's component pieces alive? So, before we even begin to determine what would constitute a sign of life after death, we need to know what life it is we are looking for. For instance, a leg cell in a corpse may still have some function, would you then attribute life to the corpse?

Localization of Function and the Mind

As you point out, the brain has many areas which have what is called localization of function. Gage is a good example, however, he had part of his brain removed, not his head cut from his neck. It is true, many places of the brain are not necessary to support the functions we as a complex organism need to remain "alive", however, a person without blood flow to their brain is not even remotely similar to a person who has undergone trauma to the brain.

Further, we are talking about death, not injury. Gage did not die from his wound. However, there were noticeable changes in his demeanor, which brings me to the next point. These localized functions comprise what we refer to as the human mind, or the self, or an individual. Changes associated with damage to these parts is not called a "death" and there is no specific "self" part of the brain that we can look to in order to confirm a person is dead (and that the rest of the cells that are alive are just like the previously mentioned leg cells).

Originally posted by Sado22
its a known fact that we don't die immediately after beheading.

We

here is the big problem. With no idea what this "we" you are talking about means on a specifically neurological level, it is impossible to determine when it is dead. For instance, a person in a coma is dead for all purposes of consciousness etc, yet the physical body is still able to live (the cells). So, if you mean that the cells in the brain or body of a just beheaded person may still be active, then ya, that is probably true. As far as human, personal, "we, you, I" type life, this is almost assuredly impossible, imho.

Impossible

The reason this is highly, HIGHLY, unlikely comes mainly from biology. The brain requires huge amounts of blood and oxygen to perform any function. Human consciousness requires 300ms AT LEAST of heavy neurological processing. While sub level processes (taking under 10ms) may occur, it would not reach the level of human consciousness, ie the "I", without a constant flow of blood. These processes would be exactly like the afore mentioned leg cell.

History

Another major item of importance is where this idea could have come from. In France during the reign of terror, there were hundreds of these types of rumors. beheaded heads were said to look out over crowds, to scowl or, , to flush with indigence. There is a history of these types of folk tales, the last mentioned showing a complete lack of reality in them, about how long a person lives after dying. My suspicion, given that you attribute this experiment to that time (iirc), it is a folk tale much like a blushing head.

Originally posted by Sado22
i'd be skeptical if someone told me that counting the number of times someone blinks requires methodology

oh boy, methodology.

ok, so, the big one is this: How does this happen? There is this scientist, who is so dedicated to science, that he chops off his own head?

ok, that seems remotely believable to you, well, what about his lab assistant then. "Hey, Jim, next week I'm going to cut my head off, watch it and count my blinks"

still makes sense? well: What did they do? he just chops off his head and the assistant is sitting there, blood pouring everywhere, grabs the head, looks at it, and as the scientist is dying, ignoring all the pain, panic, anxiety and confusion, uses his last effort to blink.

great, so you can actually believe all that?

here is the real methodology stuff.

1) not printed anywhere reliable. afaik, this should be the end of the issue
2) no replication is POSSIBLE
3) no construct validity - we don't know that his blinks were initiated by human volition rather than spontaneous muscle movement
4) only 1 subject - even if everything is true, there is no ability to generalize from a single case to a population.
5) no rehearsal. Even if nothing else were problematic, we can't say that the dead scientist knew how to blink with his head cut off. Many psychological tests require practice before a participant is able to properly follow the instructions. I assume dying would be novel enough to cause some confusion.

anything else?

Originally posted by bogen

The human brain is shown to op operate for up to 5 seconds after decapitation.


I read that too....on cracked.com

http://www.cracked.com/article_16721_p2.html

Thought the brain worked for 30 seconds total after head being cut off..only 5 quick way to go then

I'm beginning to think no

Yes. Yes it is.

It gives meaning to life. I don't want it to come any time soon, but I can't imagine how life would be worth living without it. The fact that we fear death is the ultimate affirmation of life's value.

I no longer fear death

So your life is meaningless.

Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
I no longer fear death

Throws you infront of the bus.

Death is the road to awe (cue Mansell's "The Last Man".

Death is the road to life.

naw Death is just sad that his wife is Resurrection...he hardly gets to see her and she always cheats on him...she says its like this “the wait is too long and each form has a good feeling and i say suicide would be a waste” and we all know Death doesn't want to be the bad guy...so he doesn't speak up for himself...poor bloke

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Is it? There is nothing after death. It is the end. Once you die, there will be no suffering, which is what causes emotional pain, and no nerves going off telling your brain that you are hurt. So technically, death is painless, or at least the moment of death.
In this sense, does that mean that murder isnt really a crime, at least not to the "victim"? The real victims are those who feel pain, are they not?

Your views?

First of all there is no solid proof that there is nothing after death. It can be speculated and theorized but can not be proven one way or another. Being that Humans are hardwired to survive most are scared of death. Some of that fear stems from the "unknown" after death, leaving your loved ones behind, or simply wanting to continue to live. So killing someone without their permission is entirely a crime. Killing someone that wishes to be dead like an elderly in sever pain is technically a crime but I don't believe it's morally a crime. Death...or well dieing isn't necessarily painless either. Some deaths my come quick but be a torturing pain while alive. I personally believe that suffering is a worse fate then death

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It gives meaning to life. I don't want it to come any time soon, but I can't imagine how life would be worth living without it. The fact that we fear death is the ultimate affirmation of life's value. I disagree.

And to prove my point I will kill you.

"I think that relishing in the death of another is what gives meaning and value to one's own life."
---Adam Lanza probably.

Make no mistake, we are animals, we are flawed, and we live in a world that eliminates the weak. For people, our "great" society itself has a way of breaking our will to live through the repercussions of our failure to thrive. Life can be a totally miserable existence, with no upper limit to the pain it can inflict while you live.

That being said, death is worse. Death is the ultimate end, the absence of experience, whence your existence ceases entirely. Why would I consider not feeling pain (post-death) to be worse than feeling pain (living)?

It's a simple choice, I have decided to keep attempting to thrive, and if attempting leads me no where - at least I tried.

the older I get the less afraid I am of death ..

I do not fear death, rather I revel in it. From the Earth we came and thus to the earth we return. It is the Cycle of life. With life comes death and with death comes life. It is not something anyone should fear. It comes for us all one way or another and being afraid of it will only shorten what life you have. Embrace death(I dont mean kill yourself embrace!) and you shall live a relativley happy life.

Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
I do not fear death...-snip-...being afraid of it will only shorten what life you have. Embrace death(I don't mean kill yourself embrace!) and you shall live a relatively happy life.

Originally posted by Dolos
we live in a world that eliminates the weak. No we don't.

Originally posted by Mindset
No we don't.

ever heard of survival of the fittest?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
ever heard of survival of the fittest?
Modern medicine >

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
ever heard of survival of the fittest? Ever heard of modern medicine?


Dammit, Scream...

Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
From the Earth we came and thus to the earth we return. Not if you die in space and your corpse is left to drift forever in the interstellar void.



Oh, I'm sorry. You were being poetic. lawl

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not if you die in space and your corpse is left to drift forever in the interstellar void.



Oh, I'm sorry. You were being poetic. lawl Then we will become a star.

That's science.

I'm not sure if its fear, but I don't want to die. Death is something I'd avoid at this point in my life, if given the option.

Simply getting older scares the absolute shit out of me though.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Modern medicine

...is a great example of how mental and social ability are a major part of fitness at the species and individual level.

I can benchpress anyone's mental and social ability. Hows that for fitness at the species level?

Knight of the Told Republic.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I can benchpress anyone's mental and social ability. Hows that for fitness at the species level?

If all living beings tell us anything about evolution I'd saying physically touching abstract concepts has been selected against.

I'll physically touch your abstract concept.

I think what Sym is saying is this: We have evolved beyond all living things.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'll physically touch your abstract concept.

Evolution isn't even real.

If evolution were real I'd have super powers.

Originally posted by Mindset
Evolution isn't even real.

If evolution were real I'd have super powers.

But you do have super powers. You can turn oxygen into carbon dioxide by just breathing.

That's actually something I do for you all, since I am a benevolent evolved being.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you do have super powers. You can turn oxygen into carbon dioxide by just breathing. No I can't, I'm not a wizard.

I've tried, but I can never get a hold of the oxygen. That shit's really fluidy.



Speaking of shit, guess what other transformative power we have!

Perhaps our Evolutionary path hasent gotten there yet. The X-gene just hasent activated

Ninja are death incarnate and are definitely to be feared, hence, death is bad.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
- 2 Corinthians 5:8



I know I'm gonna get yelled at for posting this in the "Philosophy" section, but this is what I believe (aka my philosophy) on this subject:

For me, murder is still a crime. You are robbing someone of their life. It's not really our choice who lives and who dies. It's God's choice, ultimately. Not murdering is one of the Ten Commandments given to the Israelites by God. I'd say it's a pretty important issue to Him.

That's not even going into how killing an unsaved person (unfortunately the majority) effectively damns them to hell, which is the WORST thing that can happen to a person. Death isn't peaceful and painless for everyone by any means... Yes, if one is saved, they can look forward to being with God in heaven once they die on earth, but an unsaved person does not have that.

All in all, I'd say murder is a very heinous crime.

Now go head, Scarlet Fox, tell me how wrong I am

No one's complained.

I have never once said how wrong you are. I mearly countered with my own opinion which happens to be different from your own. Not everyone is christian. Not everyone believes what you do. And unfortunatly many Christians dont realize that America is a Free country and if you live there you can be with what ever religion you want without some group starting a crusade against you.
-CoughJerryFarwellCough-

I believe as well that if you are a bad person in life that you will have to face negative consequences in Death. But when I say Death is not to be feared I mean it, not as in what happens after, but as in the act of Dying itself. It is natural. There is no escaping it so why bother being afraid of it?

Originally posted by Mindset
No I can't, I'm not a wizard.



I guess I can understand way.

death hurts my feelings.