Something everyone wonder, WHO WOULD WIN, WITCH KING OR GANDALF?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Incanus
Seeing as how their battle was interrupted, ever since i read the book AND the movie came out this question has been nagging on the back of my head: Who would have won?

Red Nemesis
Gandalf the White would be able to overcome the Witch King.


Gandalf = Sauron
Sauron > Witch King
Gandalf > Witch King


QED

Incanus
Acualy, Gandalf has been limited in his powers much more than Sauron, so they arnt equals, and the Witch King was enhanced by Sauron with added force, and besides, Sauron has that HUGE mace, and the Witch King has a morgul sword, dagger, AND a huge flail =-) (id like to have it all)

King-Fingolfin
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gandalf the White would be able to overcome the Witch King.


Gandalf = Sauron
Sauron > Witch King
Gandalf > Witch King


QED


Lol wut?


Gandalf certainly wasn't equal to Sauron, what makes you think that?

Hewhoknowsall
@Nemesis

Hypocrisy here?

Incanus
Exactly what i was wondering, how did he think Gandalf the White was the equal of Sauron?

Red Nemesis
This confrontation is similar to that of the First Age in which 'Songs of Power' or some such were used as a form of magical duel by proxy. Gandalf the White matched Sauron in a contest of Wills, which is analogous to innate power.

Incanus
No, just because he can stop Sauron from breaking his will DOSNT mean he can beat Sauron in a straight up fight. With magic of course, but neways there is no way Gandalf could beat Sauron. Ask anyone here in the forums.

Red Nemesis
Ask anyone from 3,000 years ago and they'd tell you that the Earth was flat. Doesn't make it so. Not only was that an appeal to the majority, it was poorly executed. You see, the people here are likely versed enough in LotR to have read Unfinished Tales and obsessive enough to have combed through the books proper to back up whatever position they've taken. Or maybe I'm just projecting. Either way, I can substantiate my claims. Can you?

Unfinished Tales is a collection of Tolkien's writing, some of it completed after the publication of the Trilogy, expanding the universe He'd created. Much of it would be appropriate for inclusion within the Silmarillion. All of it is gold. Especially for me. Observe:



This passage suggests that Olorin (or 'Gandalf') was of stature and rank within the Maiar roughly equivalent to Sauron. When we take this bit of information and combine it with the aforementioned confrontation it does not strain credulity to think that he 'matched wills' with the Dark Tower; he had a similar innate level of power.

The concept of 'innate power' is a major part of the series. A great deal of emphasis is placed on the phrase 'the power within ' or some variation thereof. Gandalf (the Gray) informs the Fellowship that 'this battle is beyond any of you'. The amount of effort and skill available to the nine walkers was considerable. This would imply that the power (I hesitate to say 'magic' because of how Tolkien saw that word) available to the other members of the fellowship was simply irrelevant to the fight, no matter their physical martial prowess.

So it is that because of the emphasis on predetermined power, innate power, we can compare magic users through the ABC argument that is so dangerous in other arenas. The amount of power available to the combatant, rather than being a unique combination of skills and techniques, is a (nearly) constant unit of measure quantifiable through comparison and examination of feats. So the transitive property works.

A=B
B>C
A>C

It is worth noting that Gandalf the Gray was capable of confronting a large contingent of the Nine (five at once?) and did not hesitate to draw the entire group's attention (in a bid to rescue Frodo). His jump in power is self evident (he is 'what Saruman should have been, where Saruman -the head of the Order- was ostensibly more powerful, even having fallen).

Incanus
Actually, he was saying that the head of the order should have been as he was, kind to nature and yet powerful. He was limited in his powers by taking the flesh of Arda, so there is no way he could have taken on Sauron as he was, as this conversation is about Gandalf thw White vs The Witch King of Angmar, there is no way his power within was not considerably great, but WHAT he was allowed to use was limited by far as the Grey. When he became the White, his power was just less restricted.

Allankles
The Ishtari were limited in their roles. They weren't meant to be conquering generals.

So in a sense you might say Gandalf could potentially have defeated Sauron in a battle (conceivably) considering Sauron was felled in the past by less.

The odds would certainly be stacked against Gandalf, but such a prospect was well within the realm of possibility.

Hewhoknowsall
This has already been done, but I think Gandalf wins...

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Incanus
Actually, he was saying that the head of the order should have been as he was, kind to nature and yet powerful.
Ok, but even so, we have Gandalf in a much more powerful incarnation.



You don't get to do that. That was begging the question and it is considered a logical fallacy.

Moreover, Gandalf did take on Sauron as he was. We have a very clear example of him being able to match wills (or power or magic or whatever you want to call it) with the Dark Tower directly. Gandalf won that confrontation.


Gandalf was equal to (or near equal to) the being that enslaved the Witch King. Sauron is undeniably more powerful than the Witch King. Maiar > Fallen Man any day. So too is Gandalf more powerful. An interesting thought path, albeit one that again relies on comparison, is this:
Gandalf is Saruman as intended: He is powerful and good.
Sauron was willing to try to defend against the Nine while in Orthanc. Surely Gandalf would not hesitate to confront a single member of that group?



You know that this doesn't actually matter? As in, it does nothing to rebut my argument? If anything, it supports my case. Gandalf the Gray was capable of matching a devil of the First Age. Gandalf the White was able to match (nearly) the greatest force for evil in the world of the current Age.


So to break it down, we have Gandalf receiving a huge power boost after the fight with the Balrog. He is capable, after this bonus, of matching power directly with Sauron. Do you really want to argue that Gandalf would be unable to overcome a being of decidedly lesser power?

Incanus
Dude, ur not getting that Gandalf CAN NOT fight Sauron. If they stood on a plain together, Gandalf would die. Even he fears Sauron. If u read UInfinished Tales there is a chappter about the Istari. In it Olorin states" That he is to weak for such a task,and that he fears Sauron. And Manwe said it is all the more reason to go." I know u might not think that it makes alot of supporting sense, but the fact is, Gandalf cant fight Sauron without dying. Sauron is also limited because he had taken the form of flesh to. He just retained most of his power because Morgoth allowed him to.

Red Nemesis
Yes. I just cited that very chapter. It might help if you were reading my posts. I'm no expert, but that's how I've always done it.

Gandalf (Olorin) fearing Sauron does not mean that he would be unable to defeat him. It could be interpreted as fearing what he was capable of, or even simple humility. Anyway, if you were living in eternal bliss would you like to go out and fight someone of equal power and possibly die? Olorin's 'fear' does not necessarily translate to an absolute power differential. That he was chosen despite that fear says more about his capabilities than his words do.

You've claimed that Gandalf would just die. You've said it twice in this most recent post and implied it in most of your other posts. You've said it a lot now. This does not make you right. If you were to say, 'Jessica Alba is going out with me' a bajillion times it wouldn't make it true. So, by the power of analogy we can see that saying that Gandalf would die a bajillion times does not make that true either.

There is a term sometimes used online, and I think it is applicable here. It is 'prove up or shut up.' I have provided a solid argument that is backed by Tolkien's writings and an account from the book itself that Gandalf's power is roughly equivalent to Sauron's, allowing him to easily defeat the Witch King of Angmar.

You have provided the assertion that Gandalf would die were he to fight Sauron.


Which do you think is a stronger argument?

Incanus
Dude, jusdt because he can match wills with Sauron, dosnt mean the power available to use (there is a difference, as his will is unrestrained) and the amount of willpower he has are the same. I know it said he had a contest of wills with the DARK TOWER. How do u know that dosnt mean Orthanc, as it was the Dark Tower to, because there were 2 towers. Not just Barad Dur.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Incanus
Dude, jusdt because he can match wills with Sauron, dosnt mean the power available to use (there is a difference, as his will is unrestrained) and the amount of willpower he has are the same. I know it said he had a contest of wills with the DARK TOWER. How do u know that dosnt mean Orthanc, as it was the Dark Tower to, because there were 2 towers. Not just Barad Dur.

1. The power available to Gandalf is synonymous with his will. Magic in LotR has always been directly tied to willpower, and there's nothing to say that Gandalf didn't always have all his magic available to him. In the books he was forbidden from using it in open defiance of Sauron (to prevent the establishment of a new Dark Power, which is exactly what happened with Saruman) but nothing suggests that he didn't have access to it. Gandalf the Gray could spam fire like no other (he lit wargs on fire in the Hobbit) and was willing to use magic directly against the Balrog (he barred a door and held it with his will against the opposing force) and knew 'every spell in every language.' There isn't any BLEACH-like 'limit' on available power. He just tries not to use it openly.

2. The contest of wills quote was posted earlier. Look:

They never called Saruman 'the Enemy.' That honor was reserved for Sauron.


I'm still waiting for any sort of argument that places the Witch King above Gandalf. Really, I'm still waiting for any argument at all. You realize that even if all of my points are contested you'd still have to substantiate your own claim?

leonheartmm
gandalf<sauron in any incarnation.

King-Fingolfin
Originally posted by Red Nemesis


It is worth noting that Gandalf the Gray was capable of confronting a large contingent of the Nine (five at once?) and did not hesitate to draw the entire group's attention (in a bid to rescue Frodo).


The Nazgul were stated as being nothing but flies compared to Sauron, and even the Witch King was but a shadow of Sauron's strength.



And yet, he was weakened after the battle ended. And notice that Sauron keeps his armies in check through his will. If his will had faltered, or weakened for a moment, then surely his armies would have faltered or stopped. Would this not have been noted by beings from Gondor or such?


Now, I believe book Gandalf could beat the Witch King (Movie Gandalf lost), but Gandalf is no where near Sauron's level of power. Sauron was stated several times in the book to be one of, if not the strongest and greatest of the maiar. That alone should rightly put him above Gandalf.

leonheartmm
sauron was said to be SPECIFICALLY, MUCH stronger than the maier who later came to middle earth like olorin and saruman.

Incanus
Thats what ive been trying to say the whole time........ But movie Gandalf also isnt as powerful as the one in the book. At least to me he isnt, anyine else agree? He never shot fireballs in the movie or anything....... He also relied on his staff to much in the movie.........

ares834
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This confrontation is similar to that of the First Age in which 'Songs of Power' or some such were used as a form of magical duel by proxy. Gandalf the White matched Sauron in a contest of Wills, which is analogous to innate power.
While this is good proof it is ultimately faulty. First, Gandalf was never alloweed to actualy battle Sauron mono e mono as you seem to belive. Second it was not really a battle of wills. IN the fellowship of the Ring we see the outcome of the fight. In it Sauron tells Frodo, "Verily I come, I come to you." While Gandalf says, "Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off. Take off the ring!" Ultimately the two voices nutralize each other and Frodo takes off the ring. However, it also says he "one remaning instant to do so," suggesting Sauron's will would soon push bask Gandalf's. Also Sauron's will had not yet found Frodo yet but was very near him (It was over Tol Brandir).

Red Nemesis
That is not the occasion I meant? I quoted it several times. This took place after Gandalf the White had been manifested and Frodo & Sam had left the Fellowship.

So unless you can point me to the passage you're talking about I'm gonna have to think that you are mistaken.

A little.

ares834
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That is not the occasion I meant? I quoted it several times. This took place after Gandalf the White had been manifested and Frodo & Sam had left the Fellowship.

So unless you can point me to the passage you're talking about I'm gonna have to think that you are mistaken.

A little.
I know what example you were talking about. I read the quote and it refers to my example. It's in TFotR in the chapter "The Breaking of the Fellowship" when Frodo puts on the ring.

Lord Lucien
A while back I read somewhere about Gandalf's seemingly imminent defeat at the Witch-King's hands in the film to be simple cinematic eye candy. That the the idea that a Maiar, recently reinvigorated by the Vala, would lose to a decrepit shadow-being of a Man (albeit Sauron's chief lieutenant) was unfounded and frankly ridiculous when taking in to account what the Istari (including the Grey) and even weaker Maia were able to do.

Incanus
^ i know that is stupid of them to do that.........

Morgromir
witch king vs gandalf gandalf wins in the first book when gandalf the gray arrived at amon sul he obviously fought the nazgul the witch kin in hooded form with them so gandalf escped and they set up an ambush for frodo and friends now add a major boost to gandalf for turnin into the white than take away the other nazgul in hooded form gandalf wins in full armored form gandalf wins in assault for gandalf wins (full armor form was in the war between arnor and the north ) assault form the battle of minas tirith hooded form is nazgul robes

Lord Lucien
That hurt my head to read.

Incanus
Owowowowowowowowow my head still hurts from the lack of sense

Lord Lucien
Actually, I was referring to the grammar...

Incanus
Thats why it dosnt make sense, the grammar isnt god and it is just one sentence.........

Morgromir
sorry i typed that quickly and im not the neatest typer especially on a mac

xJLxKing
Gandalf's power could equal to the power of Sauron/ Not sure though, if he ever wouldn't go that far; he'd be corrupted just like a Balrog. Either way, Gandalf and the other Miars were sent to help the people of Middle-Earth against Sauron; not to win the war themselves.

As for Witch-King vs Gandalf, I'll go with Gandalf when it comes to who is more powerful. However, thw WK can't really be killed by a man. Gandalf must be either a woman, or have a enchanted blade like Glorfindel (was it him)

Lord Lucien
The Witch-King can't be killed by a Man, and Gandalf isn't a Man, he's a Maia. The movie made it clear to the audience that Movie-Gandalf was inferior to Movie-Witch-King. And the movie is the only (and non-canonical) place where that is inferred.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Witch-King can't be killed by a Man, and Gandalf isn't a Man, he's a Maia. The movie made it clear to the audience that Movie-Gandalf was inferior to Movie-Witch-King. And the movie is the only (and non-canonical) place where that is inferred.
Yes, I know what Gandalf is, but it doesn't change the fact that he is still in a body of a man. That's all that matters.

Lord Lucien
Actually when it comes to Tolkien, it ultimately matters who you really are, not what you look like. The powers of a Maia such as Gandalf the White, even if he were in the body Man that barely ages over 2000 years, will defeat a corrupted Man who can't be killed by fellow mortals.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Actually when it comes to Tolkien, it ultimately matters who you really are, not what you look like. The powers of a Maia such as Gandalf the White, even if he were in the body Man that barely ages over 2000 years, will defeat a corrupted Man who can't be killed by fellow mortals.
Whether or not you like the answer this is how Tolkien wanted it. This is why even Glorfindel couldn't kill the Witch-King without a enchanted sword. Yes, I do know that Gandalf is a powerful Maia.

Also, i forgot which Glorfindel is which, but I do know that one killed a Balrog=Maia

That's how I view it. Unless Gandalf is more powerful then the enchantment/prophecy, which is up to you to prove.

Morgromir
I dont think either would kill the other just wound each other and flee . huh

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Whether or not you like the answer this is how Tolkien wanted it. This is why even Glorfindel couldn't kill the Witch-King without a enchanted sword. Yes, I do know that Gandalf is a powerful Maia.

Also, i forgot which Glorfindel is which, but I do know that one killed a Balrog=Maia

That's how I view it. Unless Gandalf is more powerful then the enchantment/prophecy, which is up to you to prove. 'Kay man, Glorfindel didn't kill the Witch-King, so whether the enchanted sword would work or whether he could isn't told. He forced the Witch-King to flee and prophesies to him that he would not be killed by a Man. The Witch-King in turn interpreted that to mean he can not be killed by a Man. If you can point me to a source by J.R.R or Christopher Tolkien stating just exactly what the f*ck it all means, I'd be grateful. Does it mean the WK CAN'T be killed by a man, does it mean he WON'T be killed by a man, does Eowyn fall in to those parameters? What?

Either way, in Return of the King, the Witch-King demanded Gandalf step aside, and Gandalf didn't budge. A Maia spirit of enhanced magical ability sent back by the Vala and wielding an Elven sword can't handle a corrupted Man?

Morgromir
and Eowyn didnt really fall into those regulations since Man is a shortened name for the human species and even though gandalf looks to be human he is a demigod

as much as i love the nazgul
i think that if one had to die the WK would

Lord Lucien
Exactly. Gandalf, no matter his flesh, is NOT a Man. And a prophecy is something that does NOT have to happen. Prophecies can fail or be misread. It's not divine and absolute clairvoyance.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
'Kay man, Glorfindel didn't kill the Witch-King, so whether the enchanted sword would work or whether he could isn't told. He forced the Witch-King to flee and prophesies to him that he would not be killed by a Man. The Witch-King in turn interpreted that to mean he can not be killed by a Man. If you can point me to a source by J.R.R or Christopher Tolkien stating just exactly what the f*ck it all means, I'd be grateful. Does it mean the WK CAN'T be killed by a man, does it mean he WON'T be killed by a man, does Eowyn fall in to those parameters? What?

Either way, in Return of the King, the Witch-King demanded Gandalf step aside, and Gandalf didn't budge. A Maia spirit of enhanced magical ability sent back by the Vala and wielding an Elven sword can't handle a corrupted Man?
First of all, in ROTK, the Witch-King was about to battle Gandalf, but heard the horn of Rohan. That is, if I still remember correctly. I read the damned book in 9th grade(4 yrs ago).

Second of all, the Corrupted Man isn't just a man. If a remember correctly, he is Numenorean who was corrupted by one of the 9th ring of powers given to kings(immortal). Now Numenoreans weren't just normal men. they were magicans, warriors, and kings.

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

The Silmarillion: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," p. 289



- Also, Gandalf's power is limited. If he uses too much, he either dies, or becomes corrupted; so he is pretty limited.
- Glorfindel did kill a Balrog.
- When Pippin attack the WK, he was hurt even though he had a enchanted sword from the elves. In fact, the sword didn't even hurt him. That sword had power because...
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
The Return of the King: "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," p. 119-20

*Note 1: A note written by Tolkien in the manuscript of his "Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings" says: "the name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably ... of Numenorean descent." (The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, p. 20)

This isn't a good source, but it is very very accurate.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Morgromir
and Eowyn didnt really fall into those regulations since Man is a shortened name for the human species and even though gandalf looks to be human he is a demigod

as much as i love the nazgul
i think that if one had to die the WK would
That's not how it works. If what yo usay is true, then hobbits are also men, whether they be man or woman. Even Elves, Orcs, Uruk, or any other species.

Morgromir
Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's not how it works. If what yo usay is true, then hobbits are also men, whether they be man or woman. Even Elves, Orcs, Uruk, or any other species. no elves are elves not man the same for the rest they are close but not man .
its similiar to saying a tiger is a lion they are the same and different they are feline but not each other

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
First of all, in ROTK, the Witch-King was about to battle Gandalf, but heard the horn of Rohan. That is, if I still remember correctly. I read the damned book in 9th grade(4 yrs ago). You're right, he did. And Gandalf hadn't budged.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Second of all, the Corrupted Man isn't just a man. If a remember correctly, he is Numenorean who was corrupted by one of the 9th ring of powers given to kings(immortal). Now Numenoreans weren't just normal men. they were magicans, warriors, and kings. I know what the Witch-King is. Gandalf is a MAIA. And one armed with enhanced magical abilitites, one of the three Elvish Rings of Powers, and an Elven blade. Pippin is a HOBBIT with an Elven blade. End. No matter which way you spin it, Gandalf is NOT a man, so he falls within the parameters of the prophecy which was made by an Elf and not set in stone. Hell, Merry could damagae the Witch-King despite, as Tolkien as said, Hobbits being an off-shoot of men. And Eowyn, who actuallys IS of the race of Men.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
When Pippin attack the WK, he was hurt even though he had a enchanted sword from the elves. In fact, the sword didn't even hurt him. That sword had power because... You're not very coherent here, so I'll assume that you're saying that the Elvish blade didn't actually hurt the Witch-King, despite:

"...But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving him to the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee."

xJLxKing
So what makes you think that Men and Women is the same thing?


You are right, Gandalf would have attack WK, but he was called by Pippin.


That's not how it works. Maias are not unstoppable, otherwise Saruman would have done it by himself. Granted, Gandalf is much stronger. Gandalf never actually specifically stated he would defeat the Witch King as he appeared unsure a few times if he could defeat him. That and the Witch King was given even more power at the assault against Minus Tirith. That's something to think about.


No, I was being precise. The blade from the barrow downs is what did the majority of the work, once pippin stabbed him with it he could have been killed by anyone Eowyn was just there at the time. That sword was build ESPECIALLY for the destruction of the Witch-King

You can look at the prophecy in two ways, that Eowyn is a woman - not a man, and/or Merry is a hobbit and not in the race of Men.

Also, Glorfindel wasn't weak. He was so powerful that he singel handedly saved the refugees of gondolin from a Balrog ambush, he wouldve survived the deed too if the Balrog had not been so cowardly. Flowers ever grew on his mound and no orcs ever dared to go near it. He was powerful enough to ride out openly against the Nine alone. He alone defeated a Balrog who is a Maia, so don't act like a Miai can't be defeat by men, elves..etc.

Morgromir
By Man I mean Human which is also what most refferences to humans were.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Morgromir
By Man I mean Human which is also what most refferences to humans were.
Yes, but there are plently of different men. Hobbit men, Rohan Men, Gondor Men, Numem Men..etc. Get what I am saying?

Morgromir
hobbit men as in males not human

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Morgromir
hobbit men as in males not human man
What about the rest

@ Lord Lucien
I also want to point out that the Istari were in shape of OLD Men, rheir powers couldn't be fully used in that shape

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
So what makes you think that Men and Women is the same thing? Race of Men, get it?


Originally posted by xJLxKing
You are right, Gandalf would have attack WK, but he was called by Pippin....what?


Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's not how it works. Maias are not unstoppable, otherwise Saruman would have done it by himself. Granted, Gandalf is much stronger. Gandalf never actually specifically stated he would defeat the Witch King as he appeared unsure a few times if he could defeat him. That and the Witch King was given even more power at the assault against Minus Tirith. That's something to think about. Now we're getting somewhere. Could you post the quotes of these?


Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, I was being precise. The blade from the barrow downs is what did the majority of the work, once pippin stabbed him with it he could have been killed by anyone Eowyn was just there at the time. That sword was build ESPECIALLY for the destruction of the Witch-King Good point, I'd forgotten about that. But, answer me this: Does that mean that an Elven sword can't hurt him? If so then that actually makes the Witch-King otherwise invincible. So it's strange then that Glorfindel set him to flight and refused to finish him (because he can't, not possessing a Barrow-sword).

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You can look at the prophecy in two ways, that Eowyn is a woman - not a man, and/or Merry is a hobbit and not in the race of Men. That's right.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Also, Glorfindel wasn't weak. He was so powerful that he singel handedly saved the refugees of gondolin from a Balrog ambush, he wouldve survived the deed too if the Balrog had not been so cowardly. So Glorfindel, Elf-slayer of Balrogs, armed with what we can only assume is a sword of Gondolin, is sent back from the Halls of Mandos in Valinor and set the With-King to flight. And you're suggesting that Gandalf, Maia-spirit slayer of Balrogs, sent to Middle Earth from Valinor with re-amped powers, armed with a sword of Gondolin, and a Ring of Power, is going to be defeated by the same Lord of the Nazgul that Glorfindel sent away?

xJLxKing
Depends, there are Haradrim, Gondorian, Rohhiram, Num,,etc. Get it?


Didn't Pippen call Gandalf about the think with Faramir?



Unfortunately, no. I don't have the books with me. I've read them fast for extra credit. Here is one quote, and I think it explains it
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
The Return of the King: "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," p. 119-20


Not sure, but know this, Glorfindel did not make Witch-King flee. Witch-King did not retreat because he was defeat, he in fact did his duty. It was to destroy Arnor, which he did. No need to stay, right?



You do know that Balrog is a corrupted Maia that take a form of demons? Glorfindel who was just an elven warrior(saw the light of a valor though) defeated a Balrog who ambushed him.

xJLxKing
Also, Hobbits are men. They just evolved.

The first chapter of the books, Concerning Hobbits tells most of what we know about Hobbits. For the most part they come from the upper part of the Anduin, as far as I know, a race of short men who've evolved over time into Hobbits, short, stocky, ale-loving, hairy-feeted, colorful people.

Morgromir
true but at that time period they werent

xJLxKing

Morgromir
base line is neither kill eachother and it comes to a draw .

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Depends, there are Haradrim, Gondorian, Rohhiram, Num,,etc. Get it?All Men, different kingdoms.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
Didn't Pippen call Gandalf about the think with Faramir?Something like that, or Rohan arrived, or something.



Originally posted by xJLxKing
Not sure, but know this, Glorfindel did not make Witch-King flee. Witch-King did not retreat because he was defeat, he in fact did his duty. It was to destroy Arnor, which he did. No need to stay, right? Yeaaahh. Still weird why someone so hard to kill would run. Unless, Elves with Elvish weapons can harm him...



Originally posted by xJLxKing
You do know that Balrog is a corrupted Maia that take a form of demons? Glorfindel who was just an elven warrior(saw the light of a valor though) defeated a Balrog who ambushed him. I know, and that Balrog was a coward, you said, so it resulted in his death somehow (I forget, been a while)? That means an Elvish warrior with an Elvish blade killed a Balrog, and was killed in turn. He later came BACK from the dead to help out Middle-Earth. Gandalf, meantime: A Maia, who, with an Elvish blade killed a Balrog that wasn't a coward, and was killed in turn. Then he came BACK from the dead with greater powers.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
So it all comes to whether of not Gandalf can harm WK. His advantage about elves swords wouldn't really mean nothing. Only the swords like the Sword of Westernesse can harm him. Without it, Gandalf is a sitting duck that might hurt the WK. I don't know if his powers can hurt Wk. Maybe a FireBall stick out tongue, but then again WK were Sorcerers. It comes down to which you want to believe.
Remember that Westernesse is Tolkien's Numenor, a kingdom of Men. Their descendants in Arnor and it's three descendants, Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur were all Kingdoms of Men. So Men devising weapons to hurt he who can't really be hurt by their normal weapons is understandable.

xJLxKing
Actually, that's not entirely true. Some "kingdoms" aren't really the same when it comes down to men. Numem were given more strength, more speed, a bigger life spam,...etc. This is why Aragorn was like 87 when Eowyn asked his age.

So they really aren't the same. Like Hobbits, they were once men, but evolved to something different. Numemmors evolved to becomes something like Gondor, or Rohan.


Yup


Well think of this way. His army, his stronghold, and anything else was destroyed. Why stay? In addition, his "mission" was accomplished.


I am not sure that Balrog was a coward. He wanted to ambush the people. Also, Glorfindel was winning easily. That Balrog lost an arm(whip), his other arm had a sword peirced in it, and his belly was struck by a spear. When he fell to his doom, he caught Glorfindels golden hair. That's why he died, because of the fall from the mountain. Gandalf on the other hand died because he fought the Balrog and his couldn't match him in strength. Granted, he was much weaker. He was give more power to counter Saruman. He as only the only Istari left to help the people of ME.


That I understand especially since Witch-King had a stronghold in Agmar.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, that's not entirely true. Some "kingdoms" aren't really the same when it comes down to men. Numem were given more strength, more speed, a bigger life spam,...etc. This is why Aragorn was like 87 when Eowyn asked his age.

So they really aren't the same. Like Hobbits, they were once men, but evolved to something different. Numemmors evolved to becomes something like Gondor, or Rohan. ToMAYto--toMAHto. Different kingdoms, different cultures, different physiology, different gifts and powers. Either way, all Men who awoke with the Sun. It's like the Quendi splitting in to the Avari and the Eldar, the Eldar in to the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri, and from there in to Calaquendi and Moriquendi. All different peoples with their own abilities and attributes, but all Elves.




Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well think of this way. His army, his stronghold, and anything else was destroyed. Why stay? In addition, his "mission" was accomplished. We can debate the Witch-King's intentions until doomsday and we'll never prove it. It just really seems strange though that he would run, when killing such a powerful and important being such as Glorfindel is within his capacity (and his physical range).


Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am not sure that Balrog was a coward. He wanted to ambush the people. Also, Glorfindel was winning easily. That Balrog lost an arm(whip), his other arm had a sword peirced in it, and his belly was struck by a spear. When he fell to his doom, he caught Glorfindels golden hair. That's why he died, because of the fall from the mountain. Gandalf on the other hand died because he fought the Balrog and his couldn't match him in strength. Granted, he was much weaker. He was give more power to counter Saruman. He as only the only Istari left to help the people of ME. I have to read the Silmarillion again, the entire Fall of Gondolin is a blank to me.

Either way, both are powerful beings, both slew and were slain by their respective Balrogs, both wielded Gondolin weapons (presumably in Glorfindel's case), and Gandalf possessed Narya (though admittedly, it's power of kindling hope as no physical power, but would be effective against the Dementor-esque nature of the Nazgul). Taking such in to consideration, along with Gandalf's status as a Maia with Valar-enhanced magical abilities, it's not unreasonable in the slightest to conceive that unleashing his actual powers on the Witch-King would defeat him.

Evilbigfoot
GAndalf wins haven't you played the games =p

xJLxKing
Numem and the other men were very different. They even had gun and cannons. They were much stronger, faster, smarter. They were powerful wizards. They had their life spam prolonged. They were once human like us but no longer.

Same can be said about Elves. Mirkwood elves can't see in both realms (Where Nuzgul can be seen, and normal), but the other elves from Rivendel can see. Maybe they lost that ability, but there are difference.

The way I see it, Gondor/Rohan, Arnor, Hobbits, & Numem are all from the same tree, but they have their difference. Just like a Alligator and Crocodile :P


Would you fight an entire army, a powerful warrior, and Glorfindel by yourself?? Glorfindel alone is power and imagine all those arrows, attacks of everyone else. Why fight that when you already did what you needed to.




Well there is a slight difference. Gandalf fought and died from his wounds. Glorfindel was close to killing Balrog. The balrog was all but killed. Glorfindel was unharmed, but them Balrog pulled him down the mountain where they both died. The same Glorfindel later took on the 9 Nuzguls. Makes you wonder how powerful he is.

Also, I don't think andalf can use his full power in that body. I don't remember quite well, but depending on the form the Maiar take, they are limited. Remember when Sauron got defeated when he took a form of a wolf? I don't remember it quite well, I am sure I am correct on that part.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Numem and the other men were very different. They even had gun and cannons. They were much stronger, faster, smarter. They were powerful wizards. They had their life spam prolonged. They were once human like us but no longer.

Same can be said about Elves. Mirkwood elves can't see in both realms (Where Nuzgul can be seen, and normal), but the other elves from Rivendel can see. Maybe they lost that ability, but there are difference.

The way I see it, Gondor/Rohan, Arnor, Hobbits, & Numem are all from the same tree, but they have their difference. Just like a Alligator and Crocodile :PYeah, I know. They're all different, but they are all of the Race of Men.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
Would you fight an entire army, a powerful warrior, and Glorfindel by yourself?? Glorfindel alone is power and imagine all those arrows, attacks of everyone else. Why fight that when you already did what you needed to.Again, Witch-King's true intentions=Who knows. But if it was Glorfindel's power he was afraid of, what were these powers, and who can prove Gandalf the White doesn't have them?




Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well there is a slight difference. Gandalf fought and died from his wounds. Glorfindel was close to killing Balrog. The balrog was all but killed. Glorfindel was unharmed, but them Balrog pulled him down the mountain where they both died. The same Glorfindel later took on the 9 Nuzguls. Makes you wonder how powerful he is.

Also, I don't think andalf can use his full power in that body. I don't remember quite well, but depending on the form the Maiar take, they are limited. Remember when Sauron got defeated when he took a form of a wolf? I don't remember it quite well, I am sure I am correct on that part. I heard not that the Istari would be ruined from it, but that they were strictly prohibited from it (the Valar afraid of another Beleriand), their purpose being to guide Middle Earth not personally defend it. It's that unleashed Gandalf I speak of.

xJLxKing
Men? As in Male? Or Humans, like us?




His intentions were to destroy Arnor. He succeeded! Why stay any longer.


Yes, All Maiar are restricted in the forms they take. Gandalf is restricted/prohibited in two ways.
1- Old body of a wizard
2- Can only use his power to rally the people of ME against Sauron. The Istari weren't allowed to win the fight. Otherwise, a Valar can just come down and kill everyone. What would that teach the people in ME? nothing!

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Men? As in Male? Or Humans, like us?Humans. Men. Those who awoke with the Sun. Numenorians, Easterlings, Haradrim, Eotheod---all of them are Men.




Originally posted by xJLxKing
His intentions were to destroy Arnor. He succeeded! Why stay any longer. Why flee? Kill Glorfindel. Be done with it.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yes, All Maiar are restricted in the forms they take. Gandalf is restricted/prohibited in two ways.
1- Old body of a wizard
2- Can only use his power to rally the people of ME against Sauron. The Istari weren't allowed to win the fight. Otherwise, a Valar can just come down and kill everyone. What would that teach the people in ME? nothing! Really have to wonder at the collective wisdom of such gods. They can create existence through song but can't stop a rogue demi-god without obliterating everything? Pfff.

xJLxKing
But all are different, in a way. same species though.


What about the army, and everybody else. Besides that, Glorfindel was not scared to take on 9 Nuzguk, this includes the Witch-King. In addition, it's still speculation that Witch-king could even take on Glorfindel and win.




Well Valar and Maiar are the same things. Valar were just 14 Maiar who were stronger. If they fight, they would reck continent. Kinda stupid like you said though.

Morgromir
Gandalf probably would be ristricted in "the grey" form he couldnt kill a balrog without getting taken down with it . so when he was "reborn" in a more powerful body he couldve taken out that balrog without it going kamakazi. Same as morgoth getting wounded in his wolf form .
in the right condition I think Gandalf could win

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
But all are different, in a way. same species though. Yup.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
What about the army, and everybody else. Besides that, Glorfindel was not scared to take on 9 Nuzguk, this includes the Witch-King. In addition, it's still speculation that Witch-king could even take on Glorfindel and win.Why wouldn't he be able to?




Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well Valar and Maiar are the same things. Valar were just 14 Maiar who were stronger. If they fight, they would reck continent. Kinda stupid like you said though. Yeah, all Ainur. But the Valar are dumb. Instead this time, don't send EVERYTHING at the Dark Lord, juts send like Manwe or Ulmo or someone. One Vala should do the trick against Sauron. Kind of a poorly thought out plot device on Tolkien's part.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yup.

thumb up


Glorfindel took on a Maia. He even took on 9 Nuzgul. I would think he is a dangerous guy.


I don't think he should ever have talked about Valar, Eru..etc. It kinds weakened everything about the 3rd age.

Incanus
Ok, so
1) Gandalf had the sword of Turgon
2)Glorfindel had his sword form Gondolin
3)Gandalf wasw limited in his powers, he could never openly display them against the DarkLord
4)It took an army of Maiar and elves to fight an army of Maiar, orcs, Krakens, dragons, etc. To many to list. Watcher=Kraken btw.
5)Gandalf wins because the WK is just a man
6)Numenoreans were regular Men, but with prolonged lifespans, and were more elvish in appearence and nature,m they wernt sorcerers or anything, "They came among the peoples of Middle-Eartj, ande taught them how to sow crops, make wine, and order things. Then when they left, all people could remember were memories of the SeaKings" The Akallabeth.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Glorfindel took on a Maia. He even took on 9 Nuzgul. I would think he is a dangerous guy.So did Gandalf, and that was before Eru boosted his power. And he chased away (not all 9) Nazgul with his little flashlight-thingy. Really, if Glorfindel could do everything Gandalf could, and more... don't send a Maiar to do an Elf's job.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
I don't think he should ever have talked about Valar, Eru..etc. It kinds weakened everything about the 3rd age. Definitely, or at least gave them a better excuse as to why they didn't intervene. You know something along the lines of their godly presence having adverse effects on people, or Eru personally banning them from intervening.

Morgromir
haha this is funny watching everyone argue about whos more badass,Gandalf or Glorfindel .

I'm not sure but I think Gandalf was probably more clever than Glorfindel.

Tolkien most likely wrote about the Valar to provide backround and the story of gods , they didnt intervene cause they knew ME would win in the end .
A different example would be if satin arose from Tartaraus I dont think God would come with an army of angels .

xJLxKing
1)Your point?
2) Your Point?
3) He was limited in his power. He can't use all his power because
- He will become corrupted even if his intentions are good
- He took the form of an old man, that is what Istari had to do.
- He was sent to unite, and rally the people of ME, and not win the war for them. I am sure the Istari>Sauron easily.
4) What?
5) WK is not just a man. He is immortal(in a way). He lives in both realms. He had a barrier that an opponent had to breach. If he was just a man, Gandalf wouldn't have been unsure if he can beat him or not.
6) They weren't just ordinary men. Like you said, they had prolong life span, but they WERE wizards;just like Mouth Of Sauron. They had huge knowledge as well. They were had cannons as weapons. Not only that, but they had a boost in strength and other attributes.


Eru didn't boost his power. It was probably the Valar. Eru believes in free will. This is why Morgoth wasn't killed by Eru.

I admitted that Gandalf was weaker when he fought the Balrog, but he died with the Balrog fight. Glorfindel didn't die because of the wound, he already won and was dragged down the mountain. As for Gandalf being sent back to ME; Glorfindel was sent back as well. After he died, he came back to ME.

It was Gandalf's job to rally, not Glorfindel's.

Incanus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
1)Your point?
2) Your Point?
Point is, a sword from Gondolin had nothing special over the other, Gndalfs would be better if that were true.
3) He was limited in his power. He can't use all his power because
- He will become corrupted even if his intentions are good
No, that is with the Ring, not his powerrs, he was bann=ed from using his full might.
- He took the form of an old man, that is what Istari had to do.
Obviously,. if I didnt know that, i wouldnt be posting, would I
- He was sent to unite, and rally the people of ME, and not win the war for them. I am sure the Istari>Sauron easily.
No, it was said that Sauron>Maia who came later.
4) What?
Was in a Tolkien bestiary
5) WK is not just a man. He is immortal(in a way). He lives in both realms. He had a barrier that an opponent had to breach. If he was just a man, Gandalf wouldn't have been unsure if he can beat him or not.
He was a Numenorean (MAN) not anything omgwtfheisubercuzhesnotaman
6) They weren't just ordinary men. Like you said, they had prolong life span, but they WERE wizards;just like Mouth Of Sauron. They had huge knowledge as well. They were had cannons as weapons. No, show me the source for cannons. The Mouth was a wizard as he learned it from SAURON, a.k.a. The Necromancer of Dol Guldur, a.k.a. a Maia.

Not only that, but they had a boost in strength and other attributes.
NOt a video game, no "attributes" There are strengths and weaknesses.

Eru didn't boost his power. It was probably the Valar. Eru believes in free will. This is why Morgoth wasn't killed by Eru. No, it was Eru, as the Valar had no power over it. Eru didnt ill Morgoth because he wanted it all to happen, to help the Music reach its conclusion, or the Dagor Dagorath would never come to be.

I admitted that Gandalf was weaker when he fought the Balrog, but he died with the Balrog fight. Glorfindel didn't die because of the wound, he already won and was dragged down the mountain. As for Gandalf being sent back to ME; Glorfindel was sent back as well. After he died, he came back to ME. Both died, dosnt matter. Durin's Bane was a powerful balrog, not sure about the other one. Shjow the source that says Glorfindel is from Gondolin, as there would have to have been more than one. Not suprised if he is, however.

It was Gandalf's job to rally, not Glorfindel's. Duh

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Eru didn't boost his power. It was probably the Valar. Eru believes in free will. This is why Morgoth wasn't killed by Eru.I will be buggered if I'm going out to find the source, but I distinctly recall from some appendix or something (and the Internets, having just looked) that the Valar couldn't revive him and that Eru had to intervene personally (same with Numenor).



Originally posted by xJLxKing
It was Gandalf's job to rally, not Glorfindel's. Yeah, I know. It just seems dumb of the Valar (and Tolkien) to send an Elf who kills BALROGS back to help out Middle Earth during the Witch-King's incursions in to Eriador, and succeed, but not have him do SHIT all during the events of LotR. I mean, if he can do amazing stuff like that, why make Gandalf so prominent? Give Glorfindel Narya, show him killing some Balrogs and Nazgul, and wham! You've got hope and inspiration for the people.

He was a dumb inclusion. Should have made his resurrected self some different (non-uber) Elf.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I will be buggered if I'm going out to find the source, but I distinctly recall from some appendix or something (and the Internets, having just looked) that the Valar couldn't revive him and that Eru had to intervene personally (same with Numenor).


Well the thing is, Maiar and Valars can't die. They are spirits. However, they can weakened to the point where they are so weak that they can never take a physical form of any kind. Whether it be a dog, an old man, or an elf. They can also be sent to the void where Morgoth is.

For Numenor, I believe he did intervene. He took away their prolonged lifespan and other stuff because they didn't believe in him. Morgoth(i think) corrupted them.


Well, Gandalf was a very wise Maiar. He was known everywhere. In addition, normal weapon couldn't really hurt him as GTW.

Incanus
Your right.




A question to XJL, if they had cannons, then why didnt they have them at the War oif the Last Allianbce, there would soubtlessly have been at leaqst 1 guy who makes them, the shot, and powder for them among the Faitrhful, so they would have had them. Rebuke if you can, which I highly doubt if it is to include anything that would make me belive they did.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Incanus
Your right.




A question to XJL, if they had cannons, then why didnt they have them at the War oif the Last Allianbce, there would soubtlessly have been at leaqst 1 guy who makes them, the shot, and powder for them among the Faitrhful, so they would have had them. Rebuke if you can, which I highly doubt if it is to include anything that would make me belive they did.
What? the Numem's homeland sunk because they tried to reach the undying land. They were halfway between ME and the UL.

Red Nemesis
He's asking why the Numenorians (Gondor) didn't use cannons against the hordes of Orcs on the slopes of Mt. Doom at the end of the 2nd age. The one that took out Sauron?

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He's asking why the Numenorians (Gondor) didn't use cannons against the hordes of Orcs on the slopes of Mt. Doom at the end of the 2nd age. The one that took out Sauron?
They aren't the same as the Numernorians who were struck down by the Valar. At least that why I think it's they didn't.
Besides, Sauron was already losing. That's why he came out to battle. His forces were driven back all the way to the slopes of Mt.Doom.

Minas Tirith was built by them. That shows something! The hard thing about sieging Minas Tirith was that it's walls were nearly impervious because of the master craftsmanship of the Numenoreans. A big deal was made of this in RotK because the only viable point of attack was the gate.

Same goes for the Tower that Saruman lived in(can't spell name)

xJLxKing
Lucien, I found where Gandalf said the comment about the Witch-King. He said to Denethor that he would be his greatest challenge.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well the thing is, Maiar and Valars can't die. They are spirits. However, they can weakened to the point where they are so weak that they can never take a physical form of any kind. Whether it be a dog, an old man, or an elf. They can also be sent to the void where Morgoth is. Yeah, Gandalf didn't "die" in the sense that his spirit was cast in to the void. I was referring to the lack of ability of the Valar to resurrect his spirit from death and send him back, like was done to Glorfindel.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
For Numenor, I believe he did intervene. He took away their prolonged lifespan and other stuff because they didn't believe in him. Morgoth(i think) corrupted them. I've never heard that Eru took away their lifespan, source? And it wasn't Morgoth who corrupted them, it was Sauron. His 50 years he spent charming and "advising" Ar-Pharazon ended in moral corruption, human sacrifices, temples to Melkor, and of course the failed invasion.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Same goes for the Tower that Saruman lived in(can't spell name)Orthanc. Made of near-impervious stone that was barely scratched by Ents hucking boulders at them. I've always wondered why the Arnorians/Gondorians decided to build a lone tower of that stuff and not their cities' walls. Again, dumb plot hole.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Lucien, I found where Gandalf said the comment about the Witch-King. He said to Denethor that he would be his greatest challenge. Damn, I keep forgetting all the dialogue and sun-stories that happened at Minas Tirith. Oh and by the by, I'm not saying that Gandalf would ever have an easy time of facing the With-King, just that him beating the WK is feasible and doable, and not unreasonable.



What's with the talk of Numenorian cannons? I don't recall them having that at all.

xJLxKing
Maiar that die don't go to the void automatically. They would have to be thrown into the void by force. Morgoth was thrown there by the Valar. There are no more evil Maiar so even if Gandalf dies he will not be sent to the Void. Evil Maiar like the Balrog that fought Gandalf would be thrown into the void quickly. That's my guess.


Actually, it was Eru. He gave them a gift for aiding somebody in war (forgot who). The gift was increased life spam, and other stuff.

And yes, you are right, it was Sauron who corrupted them into worshiping Morgoth.


It was for the leader of the Istari.


I am going to try to find the other quote where Gandalf says that he is unsure if he can beat the WK. And again, you have a point there.


Again, I am not sure. I do know they were ages ahead of anyone in Middle-Earth when it came to technology. I am going to find out exactly how much

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Maiar that die don't go to the void automatically. They would have to be thrown into the void by force. Morgoth was thrown there by the Valar. There are no more evil Maiar so even if Gandalf dies he will not be sent to the Void. Evil Maiar like the Balrog that fought Gandalf would be thrown into the void quickly. That's my guess.Yeah, I know, I was saying that it was beyond the Valar's power to send Gandalf back to Middle-Earth in a new body, and that Eru had to do so personally.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually, it was Eru. He gave them a gift for aiding somebody in war (forgot who). The gift was increased life spam, and other stuff. I know that Eru gave them their lifespan and island. What I've never heard before is that he took their lifespan away. He must not have, considering that even 3,000 years later, the diluted and depleted stock of the Dunedain was still living for about 200 years. Not to mention that would make Eru the biggest jackass ever, taking away the lifespan of the loyalists.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
It was for the leader of the Istari. Yeah, Gondor gave Saruman the keys to it circa 1,000 TA, but it was built during the late Second Age by the Numenorians after the loyalists founded the Kingdoms. It's weird why the didn't build more structures with that stone.

xJLxKing
Manwe did sent him back, though only Eru can empower another Valar. Eru himself powered up Gandalf.


Yeah, but it didn't happen over night. IT was over time that they realized that there life spam was getting shorter and shorter.

Too valuable? Though, Minas Tirith was also strong. The Catapult from mordor did almost no damage

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Manwe did sent him back, though only Eru can empower another Valar. Eru himself powered up Gandalf.Bingo. Manwe commissioned, Eru delivered.


Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, but it didn't happen over night. IT was over time that they realized that there life spam was getting shorter and shorter. Yeah over time. I'm thinking it was due to their gradual "fall from grace." Successive wars against Easterlings and Southrons, Orcs, etc. The division of Arnor and its war against Angmar. The plague. Not to mention the Numenorian descendants would have been breeding with the native Men, like the Eorl strain, for example... diluting their genetic stock. And on top of that their past was shadowed by Isildur's succumbing to temptation. In Tolkien's world, that would hurt.

madhusudhan
The witch king obviously since "no man can kill him",gandalf though a wizard belongs to the blood of men in some way.

sruthj
A couple things to think about here:

Firstly, the Witch King is not entirely indestructible. He was after all, wounded by a hobbit, and destroyed by a mortal woman with a sword.

Secondly, one has to consider the Rings of Power and how they come into play here. It was revealed at the end of the trilogy that Gandalf was wearing the Red Ring....and certainly was at the time he faced the Witch King. The Red Ring was one of the Three which were far superior to the Nine (one of which W.K. was wearing), at least as long as Sauron didn't have the One.

Galadriel for instance, told Frodo she was able to hold off Sauron himself from invading Lothlorien, by using the White Ring.

When the Witch King first faced Gandalf after breaking into Minas Tirith, he threw Gandalf off his horse and broke his staff. So, he obviously had the momentary upper hand, either by surprise or chance.
HOWEVER, after he ran off when the cavalry arrived..... Gandalf clearly intended to go face him again, and would have, had he not been called off to save Faramir at the tombs. As he told Pippin, "If I go with you to help, others will die", etc.

That can only mean despite having his staff destroyed, Gandalf had other weapons at his disposal to face the Witch King and was reasonably sure he could still stop him. That would have to have been the Red Ring. Whatever he could have done with it to battle the Witch King, we will never know because of the way the story panned out.

ares834
Originally posted by sruthj
Firstly, the Witch King is not entirely indestructible. He was after all, wounded by a hobbit, and destroyed by a mortal woman with a sword.

He has spells of invulnerability (or was it immortality?) cast upon him. These spells were undone by Merry's sword which he recived from the Barrows which were at one time used by Arnorians against Angmar. So unless Gandalf can contend with Sauron he will have a hard tiem actually killing the Witch King although he could destroy his form.



None of the three used their rings for such overt purposes. They were trying to hide their rings from Sauron not flash them in his face.



Didn't happen.

eezy45
Also, Sauron was in control of the Nine. The Wraiths did not carry them themselves.

quanchi112
Coul dsee it going either way but am leaning towards the Witch King.

Pwned
???

I have a question.



How well versed are you in LOTR mythos? It seems like not very much.

Jayson200
It has been over a month since i last saw rotk but if i do remember correctly, the witch king cant be harmed by the souls of men, therefore before gandalf can harm the witch king, he must first go under the painful mideival version of transphobic transformation. good luck with that.

KuRuPT Thanosi
How dd the witchking break Gandalfs staff if Gandalf is much more powerful?

elrond72
Dont know for certain but u have to remember the witch king is, by e ssence mortal and Gandalf is a maia. I dont know if the istari arrive in ME with their staffs or make them later themselves, actually ive thought of another thread, but to answer your question Gandalfs staff may be used as a way to channel his power and not have any power in itself so it could be broken like any other weapon. If anyone knows where the istari staffs came from pls let me know.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.