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Something everyone wonder, WHO WOULD WIN, WITCH KING OR GANDALF?
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Incanus
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Something everyone wonder, WHO WOULD WIN, WITCH KING OR GANDALF?

Seeing as how their battle was interrupted, ever since i read the book AND the movie came out this question has been nagging on the back of my head: Who would have won?

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 10:23 PM
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Zampanů
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Gandalf the White would be able to overcome the Witch King.


Gandalf = Sauron
Sauron > Witch King
Gandalf > Witch King


QED


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 11:11 PM
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Incanus
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Acualy, Gandalf has been limited in his powers much more than Sauron, so they arnt equals, and the Witch King was enhanced by Sauron with added force, and besides, Sauron has that HUGE mace, and the Witch King has a morgul sword, dagger, AND a huge flail =-) (id like to have it all)

Old Post Jun 24th, 2009 11:29 PM
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King-Fingolfin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gandalf the White would be able to overcome the Witch King.


Gandalf = Sauron
Sauron > Witch King
Gandalf > Witch King


QED



Lol wut?


Gandalf certainly wasn't equal to Sauron, what makes you think that?


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2009 01:28 AM
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Hewhoknowsall
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@Nemesis

Hypocrisy here?


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2009 09:13 PM
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Incanus
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Exactly what i was wondering, how did he think Gandalf the White was the equal of Sauron?

Old Post Jun 26th, 2009 05:03 AM
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Zampanů
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quote:
The Two Towers; 'The White Rider'
[...]Very nearly it [the Ring] was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.


This confrontation is similar to that of the First Age [possibly between Melian? and a Morgoth aligned sorcerer] in which 'Songs of Power' or some such were used as a form of magical duel by proxy. Gandalf the White matched Sauron in a contest of Wills, which is analogous to innate power.


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2009 04:37 AM
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Incanus
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No, just because he can stop Sauron from breaking his will DOSNT mean he can beat Sauron in a straight up fight. With magic of course, but neways there is no way Gandalf could beat Sauron. Ask anyone here in the forums.


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 01:10 AM
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Zampanů
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Ask anyone from 3,000 years ago and they'd tell you that the Earth was flat. Doesn't make it so. Not only was that an appeal to the majority, it was poorly executed. You see, the people here are likely versed enough in LotR to have read Unfinished Tales and obsessive enough to have combed through the books proper to back up whatever position they've taken. Or maybe I'm just projecting. Either way, I can substantiate my claims. Can you?

Unfinished Tales is a collection of Tolkien's writing, some of it completed after the publication of the Trilogy, expanding the universe He'd created. Much of it would be appropriate for inclusion within the Silmarillion. All of it is gold. Especially for me. Observe:

quote:
Unfinished Tales; The Istari
[Hardback pg. 400-1]

Who was 'Gandalf'? It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the 'Faithful' of that time that 'Gandalf' was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name 'in the West' had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descned from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.


This passage suggests that Olorin (or 'Gandalf') was of stature and rank within the Maiar roughly equivalent to Sauron. When we take this bit of information and combine it with the aforementioned confrontation it does not strain credulity to think that he 'matched wills' with the Dark Tower; he had a similar innate level of power.

The concept of 'innate power' is a major part of the series. A great deal of emphasis is placed on the phrase 'the power within [x]' or some variation thereof. Gandalf (the Gray) informs the Fellowship that 'this battle [against the Balrog] is beyond any of you'. The amount of effort and skill available to the nine walkers was considerable. This would imply that the power (I hesitate to say 'magic' because of how Tolkien saw that word) available to the other members of the fellowship was simply irrelevant to the fight, no matter their physical martial prowess.

So it is that because of the emphasis on predetermined power, innate power, we can compare magic users through the ABC argument that is so dangerous in other arenas. The amount of power available to the combatant, rather than being a unique combination of skills and techniques, is a (nearly) constant unit of measure quantifiable through comparison and examination of feats. So the transitive property works.

A=B
B>C
A>C

It is worth noting that Gandalf the Gray was capable of confronting a large contingent of the Nine (five at once?) and did not hesitate to draw the entire group's attention (in a bid to rescue Frodo). His jump in power is self evident (he is 'what Saruman should have been, where Saruman -the head of the Order- was ostensibly more powerful, even having fallen).


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 03:49 AM
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Incanus
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Actually, he was saying that the head of the order should have been as he was, kind to nature and yet powerful. He was limited in his powers by taking the flesh of Arda, so there is no way he could have taken on Sauron as he was, as this conversation is about Gandalf thw White vs The Witch King of Angmar, there is no way his power within was not considerably great, but WHAT he was allowed to use was limited by far as the Grey. When he became the White, his power was just less restricted.

Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 04:17 AM
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Allankles
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The Ishtari were limited in their roles. They weren't meant to be conquering generals.

So in a sense you might say Gandalf could potentially have defeated Sauron in a battle (conceivably) considering Sauron was felled in the past by less.

The odds would certainly be stacked against Gandalf, but such a prospect was well within the realm of possibility.


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 04:40 AM
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Hewhoknowsall
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This has already been done, but I think Gandalf wins...


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 01:28 PM
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Zampanů
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
Actually, he was saying that the head of the order should have been as he was, kind to nature and yet powerful.

Ok, but even so, we have Gandalf in a much more powerful incarnation.


quote:

He was limited in his powers by taking the flesh of Arda, so there is no way he could have taken on Sauron as he was,

You don't get to do that. That was begging the question and it is considered a logical fallacy.

Moreover, Gandalf did take on Sauron as he was. We have a very clear example of him being able to match wills (or power or magic or whatever you want to call it) with the Dark Tower directly. Gandalf won that confrontation.

quote:

as this conversation is about Gandalf thw White vs The Witch King of Angmar,

Gandalf was equal to (or near equal to) the being that enslaved the Witch King. Sauron is undeniably more powerful than the Witch King. Maiar > Fallen Man any day. So too is Gandalf more powerful. An interesting thought path, albeit one that again relies on comparison, is this:
Gandalf is Saruman as intended: He is powerful and good.
Sauron was willing to try to defend against the Nine while in Orthanc. Surely Gandalf would not hesitate to confront a single member of that group?

quote:

there is no way his power within was not considerably great, but WHAT he was allowed to use was limited by far as the Grey. When he became the White, his power was just less restricted.


You know that this doesn't actually matter? As in, it does nothing to rebut my argument? If anything, it supports my case. Gandalf the Gray was capable of matching a devil of the First Age. Gandalf the White was able to match (nearly) the greatest force for evil in the world of the current Age.


So to break it down, we have Gandalf receiving a huge power boost after the fight with the Balrog. He is capable, after this bonus, of matching power directly with Sauron. Do you really want to argue that Gandalf would be unable to overcome a being of decidedly lesser power?


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 03:19 PM
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Incanus
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Dude, ur not getting that Gandalf CAN NOT fight Sauron. If they stood on a plain together, Gandalf would die. Even he fears Sauron. If u read UInfinished Tales there is a chappter about the Istari. In it Olorin states" That he is to weak for such a task,and that he fears Sauron. And Manwe said it is all the more reason to go." I know u might not think that it makes alot of supporting sense, but the fact is, Gandalf cant fight Sauron without dying. Sauron is also limited because he had taken the form of flesh to. He just retained most of his power because Morgoth allowed him to.


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Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
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Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 04:33 PM
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Zampanů
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Yes. I just cited that very chapter. It might help if you were reading my posts. I'm no expert, but that's how I've always done it.

Gandalf (Olorin) fearing Sauron does not mean that he would be unable to defeat him. It could be interpreted as fearing what he was capable of, or even simple humility. Anyway, if you were living in eternal bliss would you like to go out and fight someone of equal power and possibly die? Olorin's 'fear' does not necessarily translate to an absolute power differential. That he was chosen despite that fear says more about his capabilities than his words do.

You've claimed that Gandalf would just die. You've said it twice in this most recent post and implied it in most of your other posts. You've said it a lot now. This does not make you right. If you were to say, 'Jessica Alba is going out with me' a bajillion times it wouldn't make it true. So, by the power of analogy we can see that saying that Gandalf would die a bajillion times does not make that true either.

There is a term sometimes used online, and I think it is applicable here. It is 'prove up or shut up.' I have provided a solid argument that is backed by Tolkien's writings and an account from the book itself that Gandalf's power is roughly equivalent to Sauron's, allowing him to easily defeat the Witch King of Angmar.

You have provided the assertion that Gandalf would die were he to fight Sauron.


Which do you think is a stronger argument? [Hint: Not yours]


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 04:52 PM
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Incanus
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Dude, jusdt because he can match wills with Sauron, dosnt mean the power available to use (there is a difference, as his will is unrestrained) and the amount of willpower he has are the same. I know it said he had a contest of wills with the DARK TOWER. How do u know that dosnt mean Orthanc, as it was the Dark Tower to, because there were 2 towers. Not just Barad Dur.


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Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 05:02 PM
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Zampanů
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
Dude, jusdt because he can match wills with Sauron, dosnt mean the power available to use (there is a difference, as his will is unrestrained) and the amount of willpower he has are the same. I know it said he had a contest of wills with the DARK TOWER. How do u know that dosnt mean Orthanc, as it was the Dark Tower to, because there were 2 towers. Not just Barad Dur.


1. The power available to Gandalf is synonymous with his will. Magic in LotR has always been directly tied to willpower, and there's nothing to say that Gandalf didn't always have all his magic available to him. In the books he was forbidden from using it in open defiance of Sauron (to prevent the establishment of a new Dark Power, which is exactly what happened with Saruman) but nothing suggests that he didn't have access to it. Gandalf the Gray could spam fire like no other (he lit wargs on fire in the Hobbit) and was willing to use magic directly against the Balrog (he barred a door and held it with his will against the opposing force) and knew 'every spell in every language.' There isn't any BLEACH-like 'limit' on available power. He just tries not to use it openly.

2. The contest of wills quote was posted earlier. Look:
quote:
The Two Towers; 'The White Rider'
[...]Very nearly it [the Ring] was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.

They never called Saruman 'the Enemy.' That honor was reserved for Sauron.


I'm still waiting for any sort of argument that places the Witch King above Gandalf. Really, I'm still waiting for any argument at all. You realize that even if all of my points are contested you'd still have to substantiate your own claim?


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 05:17 PM
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leonheartmm
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gandalf<sauron in any incarnation.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:04 AM
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King-Fingolfin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis


It is worth noting that Gandalf the Gray was capable of confronting a large contingent of the Nine (five at once?) and did not hesitate to draw the entire group's attention (in a bid to rescue Frodo).



The Nazgul were stated as being nothing but flies compared to Sauron, and even the Witch King was but a shadow of Sauron's strength.

quote:
Moreover, Gandalf did take on Sauron as he was. We have a very clear example of him being able to match wills (or power or magic or whatever you want to call it) with the Dark Tower directly. Gandalf won that confrontation.


And yet, he was weakened after the battle ended. And notice that Sauron keeps his armies in check through his will. If his will had faltered, or weakened for a moment, then surely his armies would have faltered or stopped. Would this not have been noted by beings from Gondor or such?


Now, I believe book Gandalf could beat the Witch King (Movie Gandalf lost), but Gandalf is no where near Sauron's level of power. Sauron was stated several times in the book to be one of, if not the strongest and greatest of the maiar. That alone should rightly put him above Gandalf.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 03:09 PM
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leonheartmm
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sauron was said to be SPECIFICALLY, MUCH stronger than the maier who later came to middle earth like olorin and saruman.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 08:52 PM
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