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Darth Caedus vs. ROTJ Darth Sidious, both in peak condition, who takes it?

1) Force

2) Sabers

3) All Out

1. I'll throw sidious out there. Next to all of the force knowledge he had in DE would have been already acquired. He killed Vader with just a few seconds of force lightning.

2. Not really sure, based on the fact that the force can help aged force-users to be agile (aka Yoda) but the sheer difference in physical ability and the fact that Sidious seems to rely more on his overpowering force ability. Considering he crossed sabers with LOTF luke for at least a few minutes, I'll go with Caedus, pending Sidious's ability to augment his combat capabiilty with the force at this point.

3. Sidious. Think: Galen Marek getting owned by one sustained lightning blast by sidious. I don't see why Caedus would fare any better against that.

For sabers i'd argue that sidious might win the duel. I mean as of TPM he was able to trace out the entire body of darth maul with a lightsaber and the slightest twitch from maul would mean his death. Doing that with a saber requires extreme skill and precision.

Originally posted by truejedi
3. Sidious. Think: Galen Marek getting owned by one sustained lightning blast by sidious. I don't see why Caedus would fare any better against that. And that's TFU, add 6 years.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
For sabers i'd argue that sidious might win the duel. I mean as of TPM he was able to trace out the entire body of darth maul with a lightsaber and the slightest twitch from maul would mean his death. Doing that with a saber requires extreme skill and precision.

well, i have no doubt that even ROTS sidious would out-saber Caedus, BUT 20 years have passed since then. Is he still spry enough to keep up without offensive force attacks?

Yup.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yup.
lol, ok then.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, i have no doubt that even ROTS sidious would out-saber Caedus, BUT 20 years have passed since then. Is he still spry enough to keep up without offensive force attacks? Yes he is actually and hes even more powerful in ROTJ than in TPM and ROTS.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Yes he is actually and hes even more powerful in ROTJ than in TPM and ROTS.

where do we see him use a saber after ROTS and before DE?

In DE, he already had a new body, so i of course would put his saber abliities above those of Caedus in that instance, but in ROTJ, and that era, he generally attacked everyone through the force. (think starkiller)

So, i'm just asking for one instance of him using a saber after ROTS.

Just because he hasn't been shown to be using it doesn't mean his skills are any weaker.

And while the DS ending for TFU may not be canon, it still shows that by the OT, palpatine still wields a lightsaber.

Besides, who exactly has sidious combated with a lightsaber as of TPM? Yet his skills still remain remarkable and at its peak.

Besides, who exactly has sidious combated with a lightsaber as of TPM? Yet his skills still remain remarkable and at its peak.

Trained Maul. Owned Maul.

Fact: age does diminish skill with a lightsaber. Case-in-point: Obi-Wan Kenobi. I'm not ruling out a ROTJ Sidious sweep, i just want a tiny bit of evidence, because Caedus wasn't exactly a push-over.

Prove it. If thats the case why did yoda get even more skillful despite being 800 years old?

Really? If thats the case then why are the shao lin or wudang kung fu practitioners in china still remain so skillful despite being so old?(yeah 60-70 years old according to discovery channel).

Him not using a lightsaber does not equal to him being any less skillful with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Just because he hasn't been shown to be using it doesn't mean his skills are any weaker.


well, since you want to be a stickler on proving unsubstantiated claims, you prove this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prSHdCOuNeY
try 55 sec. "Your power are weak old man."

I can't believe you want me to prove to you that age diminishes ability though. Try: Strength, Speed, Endurance, Perception. Age diminshes all of those. In fact, no, i'm not going to try to prove to you that old age dimiinshes physical ability.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident."

So yes, yoda must have gotten VERY weak and far less skillful after 800years, because according to you, the older you get, your Strength, Speed, Endurance and Perception diminishes. Funny how yoda is the most formidable duelist of the PT despite these circumstances


I forget how count dooku's saber skills also became diminished because of his age, yet its funny how he tooled the greatest soresu master in history.

Its hysterically funny that despite your claims, vader couldn't even beat a "weakened" and "diminished" obi wan when vader could go toe to toe and at one point nearly kill starkiller had he not blocked that fatal attack.

He simply said "your powers are weak" due to the fact that he believes he has grown far stronger in the force than obi wan.

Seriously, your argument holds no water as all as force users can simply use the force to augment their physical status :

Your initial claim was that because sidious wasn't shown to be using the lightsaber after ROTS, it means his skills in swordplay has diminished(or at least you were trying to say) and now your claiming his skills are down because of his age.

Make up your mind, but either way, your wrong period.


Physical ability does not equal to skill kay? Do you get it?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So yes, yoda must have gotten VERY weak and far less skillful after 800years, because according to you, the older you get, your Strength, Speed, Endurance and Perception diminishes. Funny how yoda is the most formidable duelist of the PT despite these circumstances


I forget how count dooku's saber skills also became diminished because of his age, yet its funny how he tooled the greatest soresu master in history.

Its hysterically funny that despite your claims, vader couldn't even beat a "weakened" and "diminished" obi wan when vader could go toe to toe and at one point nearly kill starkiller had he not blocked that fatal attack.

He simply said "your powers are weak" due to the fact that he believes he has grown far stronger in the force than obi wan.

Seriously, your argument holds no water as all as force users can simply use the force to augment their physical status :

Your initial claim was that because sidious wasn't shown to be using the lightsaber after ROTS, it means his skills in swordplay has diminished(or at least you were trying to say) and now your claiming his skills are down because of his age.

Make up your mind, but either way, your wrong period.


Physical ability does not equal to skill kay? Do you get it?

I claimed all along it was because of his age, don't act like i didn't. I'm musing here HOW MUCH abilty he has to augment his physical abliity with the force. You keep bringing up Yoda, but at some point (relative to his species of course) Yoda's age eventually proved too much. He said so himself in ROTJ. He would have been in no position to fight a duel with Caedus as of ROTJ, agreed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8tYp5f5jck&feature=related
1:10

You have misunderstood all along if you think I'm selling Sidious short.
Augmenting one's ability takes use of the force. In ROTS novelization Dooku backs this up, when he comments on how deeply he has to draw on the force in order to keep up with Anakin and Obi-Wan.

If anyone has the power to fight at full strength it would be Sidious, I was just asking for a smidgen of proof. Your inclusion of Dooku helped your argument much, because he was also in his 80's was he not?


And i just looked up his age, Sidious would only be 82 I guess. So i rest the argument, I was thinking of him as in his 90' s or older. Dooku was the evidence I needed, was that really so hard?

I don't withdraw the comment that age DOES play a factor in these fights though. Aged fighters need to use the force more heavily just to keep up, and they tire quickly. (see Qui Gonn Jinn's comments in TPM about needing to finish his fight quickly with Maul before he tired.)

He didn't. Mace Windu noted that Yoda had "slowed" in his lifetime, and this is as of TPM.

by Wolverine2179
So yes, yoda must have gotten VERY and far less skillful after 800years, because according to you, the older you get, your Strength, Speed, Endurance and Perception diminishes. Funny how yoda is the most formidable duelist of the PT despite these circumstances


I forget how count dooku's saber skills also became diminished because of his age, yet its funny how he tooled the greatest soresu master in history.

Its hysterically funny that despite your claims, vader couldn't even beat a "weakened" and "diminished" obi wan when vader could go toe to toe and at one point nearly kill starkiller had he not blocked that fatal attack.

He simply said "your powers are weak" due to the fact that he believes he has grown far stronger in the force than obi wan.

Seriously, your argument holds no water as all as force users can simply use the force to augment their physical status :

Your initial claim was that because sidious wasn't shown to be using the lightsaber after ROTS, it means his skills in swordplay has diminished(or at least you were trying to say) and now your claiming his skills are down because of his age.

your mind, but either way, your wrong period.


Physical ability does not equal to kay? Do you get it?

when you take in mind the eu and stuff you are right BUT GL himself states how the lightsaber fight in ep4 is slow passed because it's an old man fighting a heavy machine. So according to G canon your points are wrong.

also this is pertaining to your real life scenario, if you don't understand that you get weaker when you age (obviously i don't mean ages 1-25ish) then you are an idiot because If you at the age of 30 could arm wrestle or sword fight yourself at 70 your 30 year old counterpart would win.

This ignores one's increased ability to use the Force.




Relatively slow.

Palpatine did not presumably wield his lightsaber for at least thirteen years prior to Revenge of the Sith; his victory over Masters Tiin and Kolar had more to do with his superior command of the Force than outright technical prowess, though both were sufficient to fend off both Masters Fisto and Windu simultaneously before killing former and driving the latter back.

Keep in mind that we can infer from Darth Maul's status as a Juyo practitioner that Palpatine himself was a "high end master of multiple forms," which suggests that though he did not keep in practice, he retained enough of his former skill to wage war against four celebrated Jedi swordmasters and nearly win, not to mention that he was able to match blades or stalemate (depending on your interpretation of the duel) Yoda in combat, whom Mace Windu considered to be the greatest duelist on the Council.

But two fights, however extraordinary, don't make up for thirteen years of atrophy. After his duel with Yoda, there is no instance of Palpatine ever lifting his lightsaber against another opponent until Dark Empire. The Force Unleashed is interesting because it points out that Sidious still keeps his lightsaber on his person at all times; given that the events of TFU were so close to A New Hope, there's no reason to believe that Sidious ceased the practice by the Battle of Endor. This would suggest that the Emperor still saw use in carrying a lightsaber.

The question is why? Could it be an extra precaution taken by a paranoid despot? Possibly. Could it be because Palpatine retained some of his skill as a prodigious swordsman? Possibly. Curiously enough, the lightsaber proved to be more harm than good to Palpatine; General Kota was able to relieve the surprised Emperor from his weapon. But then again, Palpatine didn't seemed perturbed by it, as he promptly disabled Kota all the same.

If the dark side ending is to be believed, Palpatine retains enough skill to defend himself from Starkiller. Though it doesn't suggest that the Emperor remains a Yoda-class duelist, it does prove that he retained enough of his quick reflexes to block an attack from Starkiller, maintain the saber lock, and then overpower him before hurling him aside with Force lightning.

My personal opinion is thus: Palpatine circa the prequel trilogy would likely remain a highly competent duelist. I have a hard time believing that he is among the very best in the entire mythos as he once was, but certainly skilled enough to defend himself from any run-of-the-mill threat. Could he have defeated Starkiller in a protracted duel? Possibly. But Nemesis is right: even if Sidious's skills have atrophied, he clearly retains enough skill that, when combined with his superior Force powers, is enough to kill most.

So while I think Sidious might be able to keep up with Caedus by virtue of Force command for a little while, I don't see him beating Caedus with a lightsaber.

Gideon, methinks you will get a response along the lines of: Nuh,uh, you're wrong!

Originally posted by truejedi
Gideon, methinks you will get a response along the lines of: Nuh,uh, you're wrong!

No one would dare type such words with serious intent and risk facing my wrath!!1!one!!1!

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine did not presumably wield his lightsaber for at least thirteen years prior to Revenge of the Sith; his victory over Masters Tiin and Kolar had more to do with his superior command of the Force than outright technical prowess, though both were sufficient to fend off both Masters Fisto and Windu simultaneously before killing former and driving the latter back.

Sidious didn't use any force powers until the very end, well after everybody except for Windu had died. Watch the fight and you'll see that he used his lightsaber to stab/slash at them. Of course, he used the force to argument his abilities, but then again it's hard to judge how strong a jedi would be without his/her force argumentation because the more or less always use the force, so there aren't really any examples to reference.

Originally posted by truejedi

And i just looked up his age, Sidious would only be 82 I guess. So i rest the argument, I was thinking of him as in his 90' s or older. Dooku was the evidence I needed, was that really so hard?
I'll admit that age does play a factor, but then again the users can simply use the force to augment their physical abilities to compensate for their age.

Anyways that wasn't so hard, i thought you would already know that force users can do that. Anyways it was a good debate.


Now time to reply to xxxpoppunker182.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
when you take in mind the eu and stuff you are right BUT GL himself states how the lightsaber fight in ep4 is slow passed because it's an old man fighting a heavy machine. So according to G canon your points are wrong. Yeah, an old man younger than dooku. Hm your right. I'm wrong.

Funny how old men like dooku and sidious still could fight relatively well in lucas own g-canon movies.

Yep, I'm wrong because i argue old men in star wars can use the force to augment their abilities because lucas says the fight in episode 4 was slow due to old men and half assed cyborgs fighting yet he shows ole men like dooku being very fast
Originally posted by truejedi

also this is pertaining to your real life scenario, if you don't understand that you get weaker when you age (obviously i don't mean ages 1-25ish) then you are an idiot because If you at the age of 30 could arm wrestle or sword fight yourself at 70 your 30 year old counterpart would win. I'm the idiot? I'm talking about old men like dooku, vader and yoda in star wars you nugga queer when they can simply use the force to enhance their physical abilities.

When i talked about the shao lin and wu dang kung fu practitioners, i was talking about SKILL, NOT physical status.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I'll admit that age does play a factor, but then again the users can simply use the force to augment their physical abilities to compensate for their age.

Anyways that wasn't so hard, i thought you would already know that force users can do that. Anyways it was a good debate.


Now time to reply to xxxpoppunker182.

Yeah, an old man younger than dooku. Hm your right. I'm wrong.

Funny how old men like dooku and sidious still could fight relatively well in lucas own g-canon movies.

Yep, I'm wrong because i argue old men in star wars can use the force to augment their abilities because lucas says the fight in episode 4 was slow due to old men and half assed cyborgs fighting yet he shows ole men like dooku being very fast
I'm the idiot? I'm talking about old men like dooku, vader and yoda in star wars you nugga queer when they can simply use the force to enhance their physical abilities.

When i talked about the shao lin and wu dang kung fu practitioners, i was talking about SKILL, NOT physical status.

um... That second quote wasn't actually mine.

Damn i juz noticed, dont worry i know it was the other guy, i probabbly copied the wrong quote line.

Force-Sidious
Saber-Caedus
All out-Sidious

Congratulations on your promotion, General Obvious.

Do we know for sure that Palpatine trained Maul in form 7?

Originally posted by Hyuga
Do we know for sure that Palpatine trained Maul in form 7?
Yes as it's the form he used and is shown in one of the comics describing the Form to him.

Originally posted by Gideon
Congratulations on your promotion, General Obvious.

And yet in your post you stated that he beat Tinn/Kolar mainly because of the force.

Originally posted by truejedi
3. Sidious. Think: Galen Marek getting owned by one sustained lightning blast by sidious.

Beg your pardon, but Galen didn't get "owned." He took the full-force lightning blast head-on and not only did he stay standing, he advanced on Sidious until he was close enough to grapple with him. Sidious was then zapping himself with his own lightning.

...Which is completely accurate. Palpatine rushed headlong at Tiin and Kolar and defeated them before they were able to defend themselves. Given the fact that they had their lightsabers brandished and assumed fighting stance long before Palpatine beat the Sith out of them, one would have to conclude either Windu pulled three guys off the street, gave them robes and lightsabers and put their asses to work (which is contradicted by multiple sources) or that Sidious was moving far too fast for them to keep up with, which has nothing to due with his lightsaber technique but his command of the Force.

QED.

Now, I have made an executive decision. You are to never directly address me again. Ever. There shall be a committee of debaters consisting of Red Nemesis, Eminence, and Lord Lucien. Should these three observe your progress and deem you worthy of my attention, I shall consider gracing you with my presence.

Until such a time, do me a favor and argue with someone else.

...

Please.





Having to become one with the Force in order to defend yourself from the world's most diabolical geriatric (whom you had just made prostrate on the ground before you) and then dying in the attempt relative to the geriatric himself who wasn't one with the Force and who, five seconds before, was lying on the ground in such a manner that conjured the images of a Life Alert commercial, and who literally shrugged off a blast that caused noticeable damage on the Death Star (which is the size of a small moon) from (presumably) kilometers away?

Yes, that constitutes being owned.



Which is pretty impressive.

But he also opened himself up to the Force, borrowing energies to the point that it resulted in his death.



In the novelization. Not the comic or the cutscene.

I'm not included? I'm almost offended. Almost...

Originally posted by Gideon




...Which is completely accurate. Palpatine rushed headlong at Tiin and Kolar and defeated them before they were able to defend themselves. Given the fact that they had their lightsabers brandished and assumed fighting stance long before Palpatine beat the Sith out of them, one would have to conclude either Windu pulled three guys off the street, gave them robes and lightsabers and put their asses to work (which is contradicted by multiple sources) or that Sidious was moving far too fast for them to keep up with, which has nothing to due with his lightsaber technique but his command of the Force.


I guess that makes sense, although you could've explained your reasoning.

And before you seemed to be perfectly fine with me, until I made that statement that one of the following (which including One Sith Empire/GA) MIGHT be able to take the Empire. Then you got so angry that your favorite faction got humiliated and vowed revenge. For the next few days, you replied/made derogatory comments to every one of my posts.

Now you'll probably:

1. Not respond to this at all.
2. Respond to it by saying "that's BS" and denying that it's true without actually explaining/posting a detailed rebuttal.
3. Quoting it and making a face like without actually responding to it logically.
4. Say that it's perfectly reasonable to hate someone for saying that the Empire COULD be defeated.

Originally posted by Gideon
Having to become one with the Force in order to defend yourself from the world's most diabolical geriatric (whom you had just made prostrate on the ground before you) and then dying in the attempt relative to the geriatric himself who wasn't one with the Force and who, five seconds before, was lying on the ground in such a manner that conjured the images of a Life Alert commercial, and who literally shrugged off a blast that caused noticeable damage on the Death Star (which is the size of a small moon) from (presumably) kilometers away?

Yes, that constitutes being owned.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about that. The post I was replying to claimed he was "owned by one sustained lightning blast" and he wasn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
Which is pretty impressive.

But he also opened himself up to the Force, borrowing energies to the point that it resulted in his death.

True, but I'm only referring to how he handled the lightning attack.

Originally posted by Gideon
In the novelization. Not the comic or the cutscene.

I consider the novelization to be the most canon source.

If you want to talk cutscenes/comic, there he not only blocks the lightning with his bare hands, but actually pushes it back!

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon, but Galen didn't get "owned." He took the full-force lightning blast head-on and not only did he stay standing, he advanced on Sidious until he was close enough to grapple with him. Sidious was then zapping himself with his own lightning.

Thats all true and good, but Marek died from one Lightning attack, its true. I can post the passage from the novel if you like. If you want to say it wasn't owned, I won't disagree with you, but IMO, the fact that Marek died, and sidious walked it off means Marek was owned.

Didn't we, like, just agree that you were to never directly address me again?

Apologize for your stupidity here and I will be happy to address your subsequent post and, as in this case, embarrass you further.

Gideon is the funniest sexually confused guy I've ever typed to.

Originally posted by mattatom
I'm not included? I'm almost offended. Almost...

Be happy, it would be pretty damn stressful to keep up with Gideon's ridiculously high standards.

EDIT YEAH!

Originally posted by Gideon
Now, I have made an executive decision. You are to never directly address me again. Ever. There shall be a committee of debaters consisting of Red Nemesis, Eminence, and Lord Lucien. Should these three observe your progress and deem you worthy of my attention, I shall consider gracing you with my presence. And he was doing so good for a while too. I'm just gonna say that whatever relaxing agent he was taking, he lost the prescription for.

Originally posted by Gideon


Didn't we, like, just agree that you were to never directly address me again?

Apologize for your stupidity here and I will be happy to address your subsequent post and, as in this case, embarrass you further.

Horray! I predicted right, and you ignored my post just like as I said!

*Facepalms*

Use the emoticon.

Or pics.

Fine.

http://silverssimstuff.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/ike-facepalm.jpg

I've got it. HWKA's age is 14-16. That age group is obsessed with being right/noticed/not embarrassed. His constant meandering about being ignored, and annoyingly tenacious "arguments" are my basis for this theory. Agrees? Disagrees?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've got it. HWKA's age is 14-16. That age group is obsessed with being right/noticed/not embarrassed. His constant meandering about being ignored, and annoyingly tenacious "arguments" are my basis for this theory. Agrees? Disagrees?

Dead on.