1. I'll throw sidious out there. Next to all of the force knowledge he had in DE would have been already acquired. He killed Vader with just a few seconds of force lightning.
2. Not really sure, based on the fact that the force can help aged force-users to be agile (aka Yoda) but the sheer difference in physical ability and the fact that Sidious seems to rely more on his overpowering force ability. Considering he crossed sabers with LOTF luke for at least a few minutes, I'll go with Caedus, pending Sidious's ability to augment his combat capabiilty with the force at this point.
3. Sidious. Think: Galen Marek getting owned by one sustained lightning blast by sidious. I don't see why Caedus would fare any better against that.
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For sabers i'd argue that sidious might win the duel. I mean as of TPM he was able to trace out the entire body of darth maul with a lightsaber and the slightest twitch from maul would mean his death. Doing that with a saber requires extreme skill and precision.
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well, i have no doubt that even ROTS sidious would out-saber Caedus, BUT 20 years have passed since then. Is he still spry enough to keep up without offensive force attacks?
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where do we see him use a saber after ROTS and before DE?
In DE, he already had a new body, so i of course would put his saber abliities above those of Caedus in that instance, but in ROTJ, and that era, he generally attacked everyone through the force. (think starkiller)
So, i'm just asking for one instance of him using a saber after ROTS.
Fact: age does diminish skill with a lightsaber. Case-in-point: Obi-Wan Kenobi. I'm not ruling out a ROTJ Sidious sweep, i just want a tiny bit of evidence, because Caedus wasn't exactly a push-over.
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Prove it. If thats the case why did yoda get even more skillful despite being 800 years old?
Really? If thats the case then why are the shao lin or wudang kung fu practitioners in china still remain so skillful despite being so old?(yeah 60-70 years old according to discovery channel).
Him not using a lightsaber does not equal to him being any less skillful with a lightsaber.
I can't believe you want me to prove to you that age diminishes ability though. Try: Strength, Speed, Endurance, Perception. Age diminshes all of those. In fact, no, i'm not going to try to prove to you that old age dimiinshes physical ability.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident."
Last edited by truejedi on Aug 8th, 2009 at 09:45 AM
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So yes, yoda must have gotten VERY weak and far less skillful after 800years, because according to you, the older you get, your Strength, Speed, Endurance and Perception diminishes. Funny how yoda is the most formidable duelist of the PT despite these circumstances
I forget how count dooku's saber skills also became diminished because of his age, yet its funny how he tooled the greatest soresu master in history.
Its hysterically funny that despite your claims, vader couldn't even beat a "weakened" and "diminished" obi wan when vader could go toe to toe and at one point nearly kill starkiller had he not blocked that fatal attack.
He simply said "your powers are weak" due to the fact that he believes he has grown far stronger in the force than obi wan.
Seriously, your argument holds no water as all as force users can simply use the force to augment their physical status :
Your initial claim was that because sidious wasn't shown to be using the lightsaber after ROTS, it means his skills in swordplay has diminished(or at least you were trying to say) and now your claiming his skills are down because of his age.
Make up your mind, but either way, your wrong period.
Physical ability does not equal to skill kay? Do you get it?
I claimed all along it was because of his age, don't act like i didn't. I'm musing here HOW MUCH abilty he has to augment his physical abliity with the force. You keep bringing up Yoda, but at some point (relative to his species of course) Yoda's age eventually proved too much. He said so himself in ROTJ. He would have been in no position to fight a duel with Caedus as of ROTJ, agreed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8tY...feature=related
1:10
You have misunderstood all along if you think I'm selling Sidious short.
Augmenting one's ability takes use of the force. In ROTS novelization Dooku backs this up, when he comments on how deeply he has to draw on the force in order to keep up with Anakin and Obi-Wan.
If anyone has the power to fight at full strength it would be Sidious, I was just asking for a smidgen of proof. Your inclusion of Dooku helped your argument much, because he was also in his 80's was he not?
And i just looked up his age, Sidious would only be 82 I guess. So i rest the argument, I was thinking of him as in his 90' s or older. Dooku was the evidence I needed, was that really so hard?
I don't withdraw the comment that age DOES play a factor in these fights though. Aged fighters need to use the force more heavily just to keep up, and they tire quickly. (see Qui Gonn Jinn's comments in TPM about needing to finish his fight quickly with Maul before he tired.)
when you take in mind the eu and stuff you are right BUT GL himself states how the lightsaber fight in ep4 is slow passed because it's an old man fighting a heavy machine. So according to G canon your points are wrong.
also this is pertaining to your real life scenario, if you don't understand that you get weaker when you age (obviously i don't mean ages 1-25ish) then you are an idiot because If you at the age of 30 could arm wrestle or sword fight yourself at 70 your 30 year old counterpart would win.
Palpatine did not presumably wield his lightsaber for at least thirteen years prior to Revenge of the Sith; his victory over Masters Tiin and Kolar had more to do with his superior command of the Force than outright technical prowess, though both were sufficient to fend off both Masters Fisto and Windu simultaneously before killing former and driving the latter back.
Keep in mind that we can infer from Darth Maul's status as a Juyo practitioner that Palpatine himself was a "high end master of multiple forms," which suggests that though he did not keep in practice, he retained enough of his former skill to wage war against four celebrated Jedi swordmasters and nearly win, not to mention that he was able to match blades or stalemate (depending on your interpretation of the duel) Yoda in combat, whom Mace Windu considered to be the greatest duelist on the Council.
But two fights, however extraordinary, don't make up for thirteen years of atrophy. After his duel with Yoda, there is no instance of Palpatine ever lifting his lightsaber against another opponent until Dark Empire. The Force Unleashed is interesting because it points out that Sidious still keeps his lightsaber on his person at all times; given that the events of TFU were so close to A New Hope, there's no reason to believe that Sidious ceased the practice by the Battle of Endor. This would suggest that the Emperor still saw use in carrying a lightsaber.
The question is why? Could it be an extra precaution taken by a paranoid despot? Possibly. Could it be because Palpatine retained some of his skill as a prodigious swordsman? Possibly. Curiously enough, the lightsaber proved to be more harm than good to Palpatine; General Kota was able to relieve the surprised Emperor from his weapon. But then again, Palpatine didn't seemed perturbed by it, as he promptly disabled Kota all the same.
If the dark side ending is to be believed, Palpatine retains enough skill to defend himself from Starkiller. Though it doesn't suggest that the Emperor remains a Yoda-class duelist, it does prove that he retained enough of his quick reflexes to block an attack from Starkiller, maintain the saber lock, and then overpower him before hurling him aside with Force lightning.
My personal opinion is thus: Palpatine circa the prequel trilogy would likely remain a highly competent duelist. I have a hard time believing that he is among the very best in the entire mythos as he once was, but certainly skilled enough to defend himself from any run-of-the-mill threat. Could he have defeated Starkiller in a protracted duel? Possibly. But Nemesis is right: even if Sidious's skills have atrophied, he clearly retains enough skill that, when combined with his superior Force powers, is enough to kill most.
So while I think Sidious might be able to keep up with Caedus by virtue of Force command for a little while, I don't see him beating Caedus with a lightsaber.
Aug 8th, 2009 12:43 AM
