The best place to start in the Expanded Universe

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Erresen
First posts are always tricky in forums, so best get it out the way quickly...

As far as the Expanded Universe goes, I'm a complete n00b - I only discovered it yesterday! I've watched the films many times OT, SE & PT but never gone any further than that. Anyway, I finished watching the SE episode VI was thinking about what would happen next... and then discovered the EU! I ordered the "The Thrawn Trilogy" from ebay earlier this morning and am looking forward to reading them, but where to go from there? From reading this forum for a few hours and the "wookieepedia" there just seems such as massive amount of literature that it's difficult to know what to read first. Also, judging by comments on KMC there seems to be some books, series etc that I should probably avoid - NJO with Luke turning into a force god for example, sounds a bit... well... far fetched.

Anyway, I'm looking for recommendations and whatever the opposite of a recommendation is (condemnation I suppose) for where to go first in the EU!

Cheers

Ms.Marvel
honestly i would recommend that you read the eu that stays closest to the movies in terms of timeline and events. those are usually the best. the more distant the eu gets from the movies the weaker it is imo.

so id recommend the clone wars novels and comics, the empire and rebellion comic series, and...

well it depends a lot on what you like about star wars. smile

i like starwars because of the large scale battles and wars, but i dont like most of the jedi vs. sith stuff, other people feel differently. so really it comes down to what you like.

Erresen
Thanks Marvel. I certainly like the epic space battles, but also enjoy the jedi and sith stuff. I liked how anakin was turned to the darkside not because he was essentially evil, but because he wanted to save padme. So yeah - definitely like the jedi/sith stuff too! Anyone got suggestions along those lines?
Also - does everyone agree with Ms Marvel that the further away from the films timeline, the more far fetched the books become?

Ms.Marvel
well if you like anakins story id recommend Dark Lord: Rise of Dark Vader] and the Revenge of the Sith novel]p/url].

the latter isnt necessarily eu but it fleshes out anakins dilemma and personality much better than the film did and s very well written.

as for jedi vs. sith... theres a lot of material on that and im not as savvy.

but out of curiosity have you played any of the games?

Erresen
Yeah I've played a few ages ago, I seem to remember flying round Mos Eisley in an X Wing. Also shooting down those black flying droids on Hoth...
Played battlefront as well, that was pretty cool as far as I can remember...
More interested in the books at the moment tbh

Ms.Marvel
ah... yeah Rogue Squadron. good games lol.

anyway heres that second link that i messed up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Star_Wars_Episode_III:_Revenge_of_the_Sith_(novel)

Erresen
Cheers!
The Republic Commando Series by Karen Traviss look good, so I'll probably look into them. And the Rise of Darth Vader looks good too. Not too keen on novelisations of films, so don't know about reading Revenge of the Sith, but as you recommended it I'll certainly give it a closer look.
Thanks a lot!

Book list so far:-

Purchased:-
Thrawn Trilogy: Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command

Recommended to me:-
Republic Commando Series: Hard Contact, Triple Zero, True Colors and Order 66
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (Novel)

Anymore recommendations or books I should stay away from?

mattatom
Well I personally enjoyed Death Star that and the Trawn trilogy were the only ones I'd recommend but you own the latter. Plus Republic Commando the game was one of the best Star Wars ones i feel.

xxxpoppunker182
if you want the stories on how luke started the new NJO read the jedi academy trilogy. It's and easy read with some cool stuff in it, and then there is I,Jedi which takes place in the middle of the second book of JA and ends after the events of the JA trilogy.

NJO is toomany books and I thought that whole series was lacking but that's IMO. I thought the dark nest trilogy was better than most of the NJO stuff.

Hewhoknowsall
"the new NJO"? I know that I'm being picky here, but that would basically be "the new new jedi order".

Dark Exile
Bane books.

and the Dark Lord was good too.

Darth_Glentract
I started a LOOONNNGGGG time ago with the Ambush at Corellia, but I was like six so it went mostly over my head. I like the post movies stuff the best, so you could try Truce at Bakura as it's literally right after ROTJ. Then just go in order for the 40 some books till you run out. If you like Clone Wars, read that, but its just gotten to old for me. I liked those books till ep3 came out and was just like, okay, time to move on. Bane and all those are good to, but I think it its good to read them more in the order they were written than the SW timeline, so you could try Splinter of the Minds Eye or the Thrawn trilogy as those were first.

Incanus
Bane books, great books.

truejedi
well, the Clone War Novels were pretty sweet, imo, not a bad place to start, since it fills out the details of the trilogies.

Wolverine2179
Remember, most of the EU books are fine, but NEVER read anything written by karen traviss.

truejedi
she gave jacen 3 hands to kill mara. i will never forgive her.

Slash_KMC
srsly dude, it wz his foot!!!1!1 lolz

MasterAshenVor
Kid listen.

Start with the Death Star Book.

From there go to Thrawn Series.

From there go to Jedi Academy Series.

From there go to the Han Solo Series.

From there go to the Boba Fett Series. or the Rogue Squadron Series.

From there go to the Darth Bane Series.

From there go to the Legacy Series.

Then its up to you.

I just name off all the awesome series that will develop the storyline well for you without you saying WHO THE HELL IS THIS PERSON!.

truejedi
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
without you saying WHO THE HELL IS THIS PERSON!.

That is exactly why i liked the Clone Wars novels.

mattatom
Watch out for the Thrawnwankery though.

Out of all of them I personally enjoyed Death Star most.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Kid listen.

Start with the Death Star Book.

From there go to Thrawn Series.

From there go to Jedi Academy Series.

From there go to the Han Solo Series.

From there go to the Boba Fett Series. or the Rogue Squadron Series.

From there go to the Darth Bane Series.

From there go to the Legacy Series.

Then its up to you.

I just name off all the awesome series that will develop the storyline well for you without you saying WHO THE HELL IS THIS PERSON!.

id recommend skipping the han solo bane and legacy series unless you specially like those characters though. watching Drew whatever lovingly stroke dessels shaft gets boring after awhile and legacy... *sighs*

Tsal Can
Dont listen to her, Bane books are great.

Vorpal Ruin
I recommend Dark Rondevous, Allegience, Shatterpoint or Labyrinth of Evil to start with. Those are all stand-alone books and were very good imo.

Hewhoknowsall
I don't know why people hate LOTF so much. I found it very good. The new FOTJ series is also very addicting for me. And Star Wars: Death Star is very good as well. So are the Darth Bane books. And I, Jedi.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Tsal Can
Dont listen to her, Bane books are great.

dont listen to her. bane books suck!

no expression

laughing out loud

Tsal Can
So because you dont like something it sucks for the rest of us?

Red Nemesis
Yes.

no expression


They did reek tho. As in: THEY AREN'T VERY GOOD

Mandrag Ganon
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
id recommend skipping the han solo bane and legacy series unless you specially like those characters though. watching Drew whatever lovingly stroke dessels shaft gets boring after awhile and legacy... *sighs*

I like the Bane books. A nice look into the origins of the sith as we know them in the movies.

truejedi
I was okay with the LOTF with one exception.

The fact that Luke wouldn't just go kill Caedus for several books was the only reason the series lasted as long as it did.

It seemed like a giant, unnecessary plot hole.

Speaking of which, did anybody else watch the new Star Trek movie? And if you did, did you notice the gigantic plot hole right in the center of it that ruined the story? If so, post it in spoilers below, i've been dying to know if other sci-fi fans caught it like i did.

Tsal Can
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
dont listen to her. bane books suck!

no expression

laughing out loud
Aren't you biased against everything KotOR related after all?

Tsal Can
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yes.

no expression


They did reek tho. As in: THEY AREN'T VERY GOOD

How so? They were a few of the only Star Wars books worth picking up for the last few years to me.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by truejedi
I was okay with the LOTF with one exception.

The fact that Luke wouldn't just go kill Caedus for several books was the only reason the series lasted as long as it did.

It seemed like a giant, unnecessary plot hole.

Speaking of which, did anybody else watch the new Star Trek movie? And if you did, did you notice the gigantic plot hole right in the center of it that ruined the story? If so, post it in spoilers below, i've been dying to know if other sci-fi fans caught it like i did.

w8 wut?

That new spock and old spock have different ear-lobe status?

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
w8 wut?

That new spock and old spock have different ear-lobe status?

NO! the sun that spock was originally traveling to, in order to destroy it to save the planet, WAS STILL AROUND after he went through the portal and back in time. At any time, they could've taken the red goo, (its been months since i watched this, places and names of things escape me now) and BLOWN UP the star that went nova, saving the planet, and ending the dude's reason for all of his hatred. Are you telling me that NO ONE in the Star Trek Universe thought of that?

I was sitting there the entire movie thinking, why not go blow up the Sun NOW?

Red Nemesis
The guy was out for revenge. He wanted to equalize suffering, not prevent it. He was mad that people died and was behaving irrationally.


But this is Star Trek we're talking about. What fun would it be without a plot hole?

Hewhoknowsall
Star Trek Spoiler!! (don't know how to use spoiler tags, this isn't really a spoiler though, but still you've been warned)




The main bad guy wasn't really that evil. It's entirely reasonable to be angry if your homeworld exploded. Sure he was a little extreme when it came to "revenge", but it wasn't for a selfish reason. He was angry that millions/billions of his species died.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The guy was out for revenge. He wanted to equalize suffering, not prevent it. He was mad that people died and was behaving irrationally.


But this is Star Trek we're talking about. What fun would it be without a plot hole?

True, but spock felt terrible about it, so why wouldn't he go fix the problem? Or at least suggest it at some point?

Hewhoknowsall
Great books:

Bane books
Clone Wars books - Wild Space (although almost no action) and No Prisoners
movie novels (I think)
Star Wars: Death Star
I, Jedi
NJO series, but haven't read many of them, so I can't personally say
LOTF series
FOTJ series

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Tsal Can
How so? They were a few of the only Star Wars books worth picking up for the last few years to me. They had good stories, but from a literary standpoint, they were rather sub-par. Karpyshyn's writing style seemed a little... forced. His descriptions of events were lacking in pertinent details and general soul. And his use of the words "horripilation" and "defenestration" stood in contrast to the overall writing style of the novels---that is, a style aimed at simple stories and explanations meant to be easy to read.

Eminence
truejedi
NO! the sun that spock was originally traveling to, in order to destroy it to save the planet, WAS STILL AROUND after he went through the portal and back in time. At any time, they could've taken the red goo, (its been months since i watched this, places and names of things escape me now) and BLOWN UP the star that went nova, saving the planet, and ending the dude's reason for all of his hatred. Are you telling me that NO ONE in the Star Trek Universe thought of that?

I was sitting there the entire movie thinking, why not go blow up the Sun NOW?

When would they have done this? The only ship that had access to red matter was the Jellyfish, which was seized by Nero within moments of Old Spock's emergence from the black hole, and only fell back into Federation hands when Young Spock hijacked it to save Earth and destroy Nero's ship.

A better question would be why Nero didn't destroy the star, but ignoring the fact that he's insane, that quest has its own logistical issues.

truejedi
Originally posted by Eminence


A better question would be why Nero didn't destroy the star, but ignoring the fact that he's insane, that quest has its own logistical issues.

That was my question. smile But also, why wouldn't spock suggest it to him, since he had face-to-face time with Nero before being exiled or w/e.

Autokrat
I'm going to reveal just how bad of a Trekkie I am and remind you people that in the time period, the Feds and the Romulans don't like each other... at all (they fought a nasty war back in the day). If a Starfleet captain showed up at Romulus with a plan to **** up their star, you can bet they would blow him to pieces... ASSUMING Kirk/Spock could get the Enterprise past the Neutral Zone, into the Beta Quadrant and into Romulan territory without being blown up.

Eminence
Nerd.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Tsal Can
Aren't you biased against everything KotOR related after all?

my e-mail address is naga sadow wrath. that is because he is one of my favorite characters and his age is one of my favorites. no expression

MasterAshenVor
I'm a Trekkie to!!!!!!

Long Live Trek! and Star Wars! and Halo! and nah..not the matrix...

Slash_KMC
Star Trek... meh.

Dark Exile
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
my e-mail address is naga sadow wrath. that is because he is one of my favorite characters and his age is one of my favorites. no expression

Thats more Tales of the Jedi I would think.

Ms.Marvel
that it is. bane isnt kotor either though... >.>

Dark Exile
No, but it is linked because the influence of Darth Revan is directly felt by Bane(i.e. his teachings). That and Drew Karpyshyn wrote both stories.

Ms.Marvel
theyre all "linked" considering revans power and teachings were derived directly from ancient sith, such as naga sado.

i mean honestly there is zero point in nit picking.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Play kotor. its definitely a highlight and one of the best rpgs you can get your hands on.

Also if you plan on doing any arguing in the versus forum, i suggest assessing what people are saying about things for at least a week before even posting there to get the hang of how things work.

ApC
Its good by Star Wars standards (Path of Destruction is bettar). By RPG standards, as with all Western RPGS, it fails, miserably. If you want the best that the genre offers, try Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, Tales of Phantasia, Final Fantasy VII, or Xenogears.

Dark Exile
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre all "linked" considering revans power and teachings were derived directly from ancient sith, such as naga sado.

i mean honestly there is zero point in nit picking.

Sado is never named as one of Revans indirect teachers. If anything Revan just entered his tomb. A tomb with no body in it.

Dark Exile
Originally posted by ApC
Its good by Star Wars standards (Path of Destruction is bettar). By RPG standards, as with all Western RPGS, it fails, miserably. If you want the best that the genre offers, try Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, Tales of Phantasia, Final Fantasy VII, or Xenogears.

Flawed as your opinion of Eastern RPG's may be, what does anything like that have to do with Star Wars?

ApC
It has everything to do with Star Wars, and my opinion fact is absolute. Japanese RPGs are masterpieces that are beyond just being games but the most incredible storylines you can find in any medium. Western RPGs are average games with average storylines that almost in every case conceptually fail.

Dr McBeefington
If your fact is indeed a fact, then calling it absolute would be redundant.

ApC
That's your opinion.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Needless to say, noobaris is WRONG. Japanese rpgs are coupled with bad graphics, bad physics, and they rarely have anything to do with star wars. Kotor is considered by many to be the best rpg ever made.

Allankles
Kotor is a good game but don't go into it expecting it to the best anything. It's a good game, with a decent story set in the rich sw universe.

The best way to start in the EU is to follow the timeline, so that you know where whatever book you pick up fits.

I'd suggest "The Truce at Bakura" as it takes place right after Luke has buried his father and is still feeling the after effects of Palpatine's lighting. Outside of that "Rise of Darth Vader" set right after episode 3.

http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/starwars/timeline.html This is a simplified time line, past-to-future arranged in ascending order.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Dark Exile
Sado is never named as one of Revans indirect teachers. If anything Revan just entered his tomb. A tomb with no body in it.

but it doesnt matter because ti still involves the ancient sith age... thus its all linked.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Needless to say, noobaris is WRONG. Japanese rpgs are coupled with bad graphics, bad physics, and they rarely have anything to do with star wars. Kotor is considered by many to be the best rpg ever made.

So far i believe that kotor has been surpassed by mass effect, made by the same game developer and written by the same guy that wrote the bane books.

Kotor 1 was pretty good, but kotor 2 was dissapointing at the end.

Kotor 2 had so much potential but thanks to impatient lucasfarts, the game got cut in half.

But i have a feeling that the old republic might vastly surpass kotor and make a joke out of WOW(i played that game, i tell you its decent
, but its not THAT good, its super overrated)

Tsal Can
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
but it doesnt matter because ti still involves the ancient sith age... thus its all linked.

Well yeah, I guess they would be wouldnt they....

Ms.Marvel
from a certain point of view. stick out tongue

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So far i believe that kotor has been surpassed by mass effect, made by the same game developer and written by the same guy that wrote the bane books.

Kotor 1 was pretty good, but kotor 2 was dissapointing at the end.

Kotor 2 had so much potential but thanks to impatient lucasfarts, the game got cut in half.

But i have a feeling that the old republic might vastly surpass kotor and make a joke out of WOW(i played that game, i tell you its decent
, but its not THAT good, its super overrated) WOW is already a joke. As for kotor, I agree, it was surpassed, by pretty much kotor with a different name. Mass effect=same same developers and a writer from star wars.

ApoIIoCloud
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Needless to say, noobaris is WRONG. Japanese rpgs are coupled with bad graphics, bad physics, and they rarely have anything to do with star wars. Kotor is considered by many to be the best rpg ever made.

And those many people are wrong.

For one, at its very core concept, KotOR can objectively be seen to fail.

It's yet another Western RPG with a heavy emphasis on player choice and being able to influence the game world and the storyline and the role your character takes in that game world; it essentially attempts to replicate the role playing game experience that you can find in table top/message board role playing games in a format that is not capable of adequately supporting that core concept (the single player story based video game format).

And the reason for that is that everything in the game is ultimately predetermined by the video game developers; you get to make choices but this does not create the same sense of individuality between player and character like it does in a table top RPG for instance, because while there, you choose exactly how your player behaves with no real limitations but your own imagination and the laws of the game setting (in essence you are your character), here, you, the player, are presented with choices that you get to make; these choices do not originate with you, the player, but the game itself; the choices are generally far too limited and imprecise (in KotOR's case specifically the choices almost always mirrored a generic good, evil, or neutral viewpoint; no middle ground and most certainly not necessarily in accordance with the player's personality or mannerisms), and you generally always follow a predetermined path (that there are two in KotOR does little to create the illusion that your choices are meaningful and making a real difference).

In short, the limitations of the choice making system prevent you from truly feeling like the driving force behind your character; you're simply pushing your character through one of a number of predetermined paths put in by the developers.

Japanese RPGs on the other hand place a clear emphasis on storyline; as an RPG in a format that prevents you from retaining anywhere near to full control over your character's should do. You, the player, are the audience to the storyline, much like you would be with a movie or a book, and the level of storyline immersion allows you, the player, to literally escape into the role of your character. You are drawn into the role of the character, not by controlling your character, which doesn't work in the format, but by escaping into his world through the storyline presented before you.

Not to mention, beyond what conceptually fails and succeeds, Western game developers at best tell extremely average storylines that can perhaps favourable compare with the kind of storylines you may find in a slightly above average movie or novel, whereas Eastern game developers tell the most phenomenal storylines you can find anywhere in any storytelling medium, with incredible, original music to boot.

In KotOR's case, the fact that the writing team have to split their creativity through a number of different storyline paths doesn't exactly maximise the quality of the storyline you'll find in any given path either. Nor does it suit completionists who like to experience any given activity in its entirety.

And the same is the case with Mass Effect. Really, Path of Destruction told a better story than either Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic, and nobody's going to try and argue that it tells a story comparable to the likes of Xenogears or Baten Kaitos.

Really, it's no longer a matter of subjectivity when it can conceptually be seen to fail. KotOR (and Mass Effect and the majority of Bioware's RPGs) is objectively a very poor RPG.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Too long, didn't read, partly because I don't care, and partly because you are wrong.

Red Nemesis
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Tealdeer.gif/180px-Tealdeer.gif

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Too long, didn't read, partly because I don't care, and partly because you are wrong.
yes

Allankles
Originally posted by ApoIIoCloud
Really, it's no longer a matter of subjectivity when it can conceptually be seen to fail. KotOR (and Mass Effect and the majority of Bioware's RPGs) is objectively a very poor RPG.

Bioware improved on their story telling from Kotor 1 (and especially their dialogue) with Jade Empire and Mass Effect. And will likely continue to improve their story telling with Mass Effect 2.

I personally favor Jade Empire as their best rpg - from a story telling perspective- to date. Mass Effec was an improvement with dialogue etc but they went backwards with their barren planet missions.

As far as your argument over WRPGS and JRPGS how can it be anything but subjective? You talk about the multiple paths reducing the story telling potential in Bio Ware's games (I agree that is one of the weaknesses of Bioware's games, side quests and the like) but then you include all WRPG's?

Look at the Elder scrolls games. The faction quests in Oblivion were massive and told very expansive stories of their own. Not forgetting the amount of lore that is in games like Elder Scrolls, Vampire the Masquerade, Gothic, etc You can't be speaking about all WRPGS.

Red Nemesis
blowup

o.0

Allankles
From a story telling perspective I thought it was terrific. And the dialogue was definitely an improvement over Kotor. The combat could have been better, maybe they should have worked with Team Ninja or a similar company to get the martials combat right.

Overall I thought Mass Effect was superior but for the terrible inclusion of the repetitive barren planets.

ApolloCIoud
Looking at what an RPG is supposed to do via its very definition: to draw the player into the role of the character, that KotOR's very concept and emphasis relies on a mechanic that can objectively be seen to not in any way achieve that should adequately substantiate how it fails as an RPG. Mass Effect and most of Bioware's RPGs are the same. I'm pretty confident I could develop a superior RPG than those fools.

By multiple paths I meant that the storyline can branch into multiple, variable paths depending on the choices that you make (side quests are fine and help establish the "norm" of the setting which adds to the general atmosphere of the game).

And the likes of the Fallout and Elder Scrolls games suffer from another, significant flaw: slow moving storylines that lack direction with a heavy gameplay emphasis, particularly on exploration. Gameplay is essentially the divide between player and character; its the component of the video game format that highlights that the player is actually playing a game, not escaping into the role that the character takes in the game's storyline, and slow moving plot lines only detract from the immersive storyline element which is fundamental to the RPG.

When I play a JRPG I know I'm experiencing a work of art; a masterpiece. When I play a WRPG I know I'm experiencing something that is fundamentally average at best and conceptually a failure in most cases. Really, I'd submit that its the very worst genre of video gaming.

Hewhoknowsall
To be honest, KOTOR isn't what it's hyped up to be. It's good, but not "uber ultra best RPG evar!!!!!!" Although maybe I just need to advance further in order to get the thrills...

It makes no sense though that Revan, Bastilla and that redeemed dark jed/sith together have trouble taking on a wild animal.

Nephthys
I don't see how you can you can put down one genre for attempting to do something (that you claim is essential to the genre) and then turn around and praise another for not even attempting that something. And although naturally the roleplaying aspect of the games are not perfect, but they are a damn sight better than JRPG's. When I'm playing a jrpg there is always a feeling of separateness from the character I'm playing as, becuase simply put, that character is not me. I have not molded that character, not chosen what it has said, heck sometimes I even have no control of their fighting abilities. I know that I'm not playing as me, that isn't me on the screen, that is some other dipshit. That is why jrpgs fail as a medium, they fail in making the character become the main character, in having the player create a wonderful story with their own hands, no matter how small of an input they have. That is what an RPG is about. Not the story-line, the characters. Creating a character and having it interact with a pre-set world. It is not a pale imitation of a table-top game, it is a platform-based version. You claim that it fails becuase it cannot offer the absolute freedom of the DnD boardgames, when even these did not do such a thing. Did you not have to choose from a pre-set list of races to create your character? Pre-set mission? Feats? Weapon? Etc? Yes. You are telling us that they fail in something they didn't even try to do. That my friend, is a sign of bias, which you obviously suffer from.

JRPG's attempt to be books, to tell an epic tale with soaring heights and harrowing lows, but they are not books, they are games. You said that gameplay and combat etc was the worst point of the games, but you fail to see that they are GAMES. If you want to have that sort of thing go read an book or watch a movie. Gameplay is one of the most, if not The most essential aspect of a game, its the reason why its a goddamn game and not one of those things, its why people buy the game in the first place, why it was made as a game. You are too hung up on just one aspect of a much greater whole. Is the story important? Yes. Is the gameplay important? Yes. A brain cannot survive without a body. A story cannot exist without its game. Deal with it.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by ApolloCIoud
Looking at what an RPG is supposed to do via its very definition: to draw the player into the role of the character,

thats what most games try to do. can you provide a definitive source that states that that is what an rpg must do in order to be a good rpg?

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by Allankles
From a story telling perspective I thought it was terrific. And the dialogue was definitely an improvement over Kotor. The combat could have been better, maybe they should have worked with Team Ninja or a similar company to get the martials combat right.

Overall I thought Mass Effect was superior but for the terrible inclusion of the repetitive barren planets. Well mass effect 2, according to bioware isn't going to have reptitice barren planets.

The trailers of ME2 remind of of ROTS and TESB.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
kotor doesn't draw you in? maybe because you don't see a similarity between you and the main characters.

That's why you play games involving over dressed spiky haired, girly eyed hermaphrodites with effeminite bodies and compensating swords.

Whereas western rpgs you almost always use a logically sized weapon, you play a human looking character, and very often you are fighting realistic enemies.

A jrpg is NOT immersive by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry noobaris.

I liked in kotor how I was able to chose what my character said and did and my allignment shifted according to that. I hated in oblivion (and all jrpgs) you are forced to stick to their script and do what the game designer thinks you should.

for instance: in oblivion (and all jrpgs) I wanted to kill martin septim, join forces with the oblivion people, become king, and rule tamriel with an iron fist going from place to place kicking ass and chewing gum. Games which do not allow you to improv the script, ultimately fail immersively because I don't feel the character has become me.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
for instance: in oblivion (and all jrpgs) I wanted to kill martin septim, join forces with the oblivion people, become king, and rule tamriel with an iron fist going from place to place kicking ass and chewing gum. Games which do not allow you to improv the script, ultimately fail immersively because I don't feel the character has become me. Bingo. Oblivion's biggest flaw. At least Fallout 3 improved on that (somewhat). Still a fun game though.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
over dressed spiky haired, girly eyed hermaphrodites with effeminite bodies and compensating swords.


Big jerk! mad

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Bingo. Oblivion's biggest flaw. At least Fallout 3 improved on that (somewhat). Still a fun game though. it was fun, but vanilla oblivion is no comparison to oblivion with all the mods u can get big grin

Wolverine2179
Bingo, especially with all the porn mods.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by Apo!!o C!oud
This is not a matter of subjectivity opinion; the likes of KotOR and Mass Effect and Balder's Gate 2 are objectively poor fantastic RPGs.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
2thumbsup1dickup.

Ms.Marvel
edit-

forgot i cant talk to him. sad

REXXXX
No worries, got rid of him again. Foolish sock.

I started with the Thrawn Trilogy, personally. It was the first good Star Wars book I came across. Then again, I also read those abysmal kids books...

Hewhoknowsall
@Rexxxx

Do you remember what was Nebaris's original account? and why he first got banned? Just curious.

Allankles
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
it was fun, but vanilla oblivion is no comparison to oblivion with all the mods u can get big grin

Mods always improve games. I'm still playing modded Jedi Academy 5 years on.

But Oblivion allowed you to be Arch mage, Grand Master of the fighters guild, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, The Gray Fox, Knight Errant, Divine Crusader and greatest of all, Mad God of the shivering isles.

All in all, without any mods your character becomes more powerful than the Emperor of Tamriel; becoming a madgod, and becoming the head of all the most powerful factions on the continent.

mattatom
Quite. Though to be honest. The end game armour is disappointingly...crap.

truejedi
Originally posted by Allankles
Mods always improve games. I'm still playing modded Jedi Academy 5 years on.


I played that last night for the first time in years. Interesting that you would mention it today.

ares834
I actually never got into Mass Effect, although I loved KotOR.

kotorfan
ok i'm abit late, but heres what u do:

read the Bane books. especially the 1st 2. idk about the 3rd, and idk if its even out yet.

Read the NJO series because if you don't, you won't be able to talk about any of the versus threads. theres characters like caedus, njo luke, anakin, jedi leia and etc. u'll be missing out on alot of discussions if u don't read those.


Also, read LOTF just cuz for the same reason. Caedus is used alot so you will need 2 kno about him. (u could use wookiepedia also)

I haven't really gotten int othe FOTJ series yet, so idk about that.

People also talk about the kotor games alot, so I recommend you to play them. (not just for the sake of being able to participate in threads but also cuz...





THE KOTOR GAMES ARE EPIC)

so yeah try them out. especially the 1st one.


2nd one is.. not as well made. but still good.


Also u'll need to kno about krayt, and his empire.

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by Allankles
Mods always improve games. I'm still playing modded Jedi Academy 5 years on.

But Oblivion allowed you to be Arch mage, Grand Master of the fighters guild, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, The Gray Fox, Knight Errant, Divine Crusader and greatest of all, Mad God of the shivering isles.

All in all, without any mods your character becomes more powerful than the Emperor of Tamriel; becoming a madgod, and becoming the head of all the most powerful factions on the continent.
agreed, but none of them really evil. I think the next one should allow you to ally with the daedra.

Ms.Marvel
the thread starter hasnt been online since august 25th. smile

mattatom
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the thread starter hasnt been online since august 25th. smile How rude! He can atleast have the decency to see us go offtopic and then ontopic and see what we recommend.

Ashley Riot
EDIT

Red Nemesis
I had really hoped that this wasn't nebaris. sad

Reported

Slash_KMC
Told you Nebaris was a girl.

Advent
Ashley Riot is a guy from a PS1 game, I believe.

Slash_KMC
Ah crap, yes. I forgot that Ashley can also be a guy's name.

Tsal Can
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Bingo. Oblivion's biggest flaw. At least Fallout 3 improved on that (somewhat). Still a fun game though.

That also comes to stand with the first person and third person RPG experience.

Tsal Can
P.S.
The only KotOR anything I have touched is the comic book series and read both the Bane Books the old KotOR comic(which are offically Tales of the Jedi) a friend wanted to sell me the first game(KotOR) on PC. Should I buy it from him?

heyrx,fkyou!!!!
Slash wishes I was a girl.

heyrx,fkyou!!!!
Originally posted by Advent
Ashley Riot is a guy from a PS1 game, I believe.

The absolutely legendary Vagrant Story, a game that Famitsu awarded a perfect score of 40/40 for, and a game objectively superior to Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic and Baldur's Gate 2 and Bioshock and Mass Effect and Bioshock. no expression

heyrx,fkyou!!!!
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how you can you can put down one genre for attempting to do something (that you claim is essential to the genre) and then turn around and praise another for not even attempting that something.

Where did I claim that choice based control mechanics were essential? I recall stating the exact opposite.

And I praise JRPGs for choosing not to place emphasis on a game mechanic that does nothing in meeting the objective of the genre, for not trying to blindly emulate role playing games of a different format but adapting it into the video game format in a way that successfully achieves the objective of the genre, with masterful results. The fact that they tell stories more effectively than any book, movie, or TV show is also an added bonus, as is the masterful creation and implementation of video game music to enhance the storyline.



Choice based control mechanics =/= roleplaying aspects.

WRPGs for the most part utilise "roleplaying aspects" that don't fit into the format; JRPGs adapted the game into the format by introducing a new form of roleplaying. As far as using roleplaying aspects that work, WRPGs don't; JRPGs do so in abundance.



Well that's too bad but to deny that there is no value in storyline immersion in drawing the player into the role of the character simply based off of personal experience is a tad silly.



And what you're not getting is that control isn't essential in creating a roleplaying experience.



It's about the character's role within the setting; how the two components interact to form the storyline.



Please, I've already more than adequately explained how it is . The level of control is far more limited to the point where you're simply influencing a predetermined character through predetermined paths. In a table top or message board RPG you retain full control over your character's personality, dialogue, and choices as far as what the "rules" of the game allow.



"in a table top RPG for instance, because while there, you choose exactly how your player behaves with no real limitations but your own imagination and the laws of the game setting"

Everything you've described would apply to real people living real lives. Naturally, as humans, we have no choice over how we're brought into the world, we do face personal limitations, and we are bound by certain laws. Obviously, RPGs have to face certain rules, and certain absolutes to the game and its setting, as well as the use of probability based gameplay mechanics that influence the success of some of your actions. However, the options at your disposal grant you complete control over your character within the confines of the laws and rules of the game; that is, complete control over dialogue, personality, and any limitations are no greater than the ones we face in real life. Thus, this creates a sense of individuality between player and character; you truly are the driving force behind your character. The same illusion isn't allowed with the limited nature of video games and pre determined elements that lack variety and scope.



That they technically take the form of a game doesn't mean that "gaming" has to be their primary function. You wouldn't suggest that would be the case with Wii Fit or Brain Age and the same applies to RPGs; their primary function is drawing the player into the role of the character; something that the gaming aspects are largely useless at achieving; this is where the emphasis on story comes from, and rightly so.



This appears to assume that a book or a movie offers as much as far as storytelling is concerned as the videogames in question, and that there's no limit to this number of books and movies; for one, the videogames being referenced tell the most incredible storylines you can find in any medium, and secondly, the video game medium allows for a completely unique method of storytellling that you can't get in any other medium: a combination of mandatory storyline sequences along with optional storyline sequences that you control the pace and order of (such as speaking to random villagers in an RPG, or talking via the CODEK in the MGS games) creates a completely unique story based experience. Gameplay itself in story driven games largely fleshes out the "action" aspects of a story much in the same way that that a prolonged car chase or fight scene would in an action movie, only this time you are in direct control of the action, as would simulation aspects (such as purchasing items from a general store) though in a far more roleplaying related way.



Not as far as RPGs are concerned; as I said it highlights the divide between player and character and emphasises the fact that you are actually playing a game.



Again, this is assuming that the only unique merits of the video game format can be provided for gameplay based uses; something that I've already thoroughly countered and something that the entire concept behind role playing games disagrees with.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by heyrx,fkyou!!!!
The absolutely legendary Vagrant Story, a game that Famitsu awarded a perfect score of 40/40 for, and a game objectively superior to Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic and Baldur's Gate 2 and Bioshock and Mass Effect and Bioshock. no expression In your eyes yes, in reality, no.

Tsal Can
Wouldn't famitsu be be biased anyway?

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by heyrx,fkyou!!!!
Slash wishes I was a girl.

The problem is that girls never pretend to be guys, but a lot of guys pretend to be girls on the net. (Not talking about Exodus btw.)

I think your new name has a hidden message somewhere, but it's just too cryptic.

Red Nemesis
Guys. Stop talking to him. Even when he says stupid stuff.

I know it can be hard, but just ignore it. I mean, I didn't respond to his categorization of Bioshock as a RPG even though it reeks of ignorance. No, I ignored it and moved on. I suggest you all do the same.

Slash_KMC
Yes, sir!

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by heyrx,fkyou!!!!
Slash wishes I was a girl. god dammit, this noobaris character keeps using up the good usernames!

(jk, rex, luvya)

One Free Man
Bumping, because this debate has been done to the same extent with the same people. Therefor, rex, please, ban weltall's ass, he's not a girl, he is noobaris. he has fooled you. Don't worry, you can't win them all.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Guys. Stop talking to him. Even when he says stupid stuff.

I know it can be hard, but just ignore it. I mean, I didn't respond to his categorization of Bioshock as a RPG even though it reeks of ignorance. No, I ignored it and moved on. I suggest you all do the same.

i'll be honest, its only the stupid stuff that i'm NOT going to respond too. there aren't that many regulars on this board anymore, and neb, let's face it, is as regular as any one of us.

Slash_KMC
Yeah, thanks to the bulletproof ban system.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by truejedi
i'll be honest, its only the stupid stuff that i'm NOT going to respond too. there aren't that many regulars on this board anymore, and neb, let's face it, is as regular as any one of us.

That was totally a recent (and therefore pertinent) post. no expression

truejedi
lol, i didn't notice the bump. you know how it be.

Shey Tapani
The Paradise Snare

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