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Which is better?
or are they the same effect just different sources of power?

Example MJJ or Mxy for reality manip
Molecule man for Molecular manip

Reality manip is far better/greater imo as you can manip anything including time and space as well as matter along along with others things( this depends on how powerful a warper you are though)

Equals.
Mm in secret wars was affecting the multiverse... Since all things all comprised of molecules... He could even read minds...

Where might mm be useless... Possibly in a universe that had no molecules... But if mm was there he'd still have his own molecules to manipulate

when mjj was dropped into a reality that no longer existed he had nothing to affect... And essentially became powerless as reality in that dimension no longer existed. I also can't remember a reality manipulator reading thoughts

A reality manipulator could just give himself telepathy.

Also, Beyonder did iirc.

Would beyonder be considered only a reality manipulator or simply someone that had a bunch of powers already like an abstract or Thor or whatnot

moleculer manip canot affect stuff like light energy gravity time & all that

reality warp > moleculer manip


MM is call "molecule man" but he can also warp reality

Reality manipulation, its not even close. Now a high level molecular manipulator can beat a low level reality warper but nothing except another high level reality warper, a true omnipotent, or a multiversal abstract can beat a high level reality warper generally.
To summarize: matter manipulation still obeys (to some degree) the laws of thermodynamics and physics. Reality warping does not.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
matter manipulation still obeys (to some degree) the laws of thermodynamics and physics. Not in comics.

Originally posted by Mindset
Not in comics.
That's why I said "to some degree". That's one of the things that separates reality and matter manip. Matter manip is (very slightly) less ludicrous.

Like turning someone into angry water?....

Yes, a matter manipulator can turn you into water, a reality manipulator can turn you into a glass of water that talks with a french accent and calls itself Henri Depardieu.

reality manipulator by far.

A Reality Manipulator can make Up down and Down mean left. It's on a whole other level. they make telepathy =water if they want to.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
A Reality Manipulator can make Up down and Down mean left. It's on a whole other level. they make telepathy =water if they want to. thats only very hi-lvl reality warpers ^^ (like mxy)

take mjj, hes also suppose to be reality warper but never did that kinda stuff (all his tricks were basicly matter manip)

Yeah, but he was certifiably insane from all that power, so was Jamie Braddock, but MJJ was actually a multiversal threat.

essentially: molecule manipulation allows a character to create a galaxy. reality manipulation allows a character to create a galaxy... inside of a soda can.

Originally posted by KingD19
Yeah, but he was certifiably insane from all that power, so was Jamie Braddock, but MJJ was actually a multiversal threat.

take a matter manipulator at the abstract level and compare him to a reality warper at the universal/multiversal level...

trying to compare the feats of each is a bit... pointless... don't you think.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes, a matter manipulator can turn you into water, a reality manipulator can turn you into a glass of water that talks with a french accent and calls itself Henri Depardieu.

How do you compare the feats of two people when one has a greater level of power? For example:
which is better optic blasts like cyclops or heat vision from say superman...

Besides mm there are not many pure matter manipulaters at the levels of what you guys compare to reality warpers...

I can't even think of one. So u guys win I guess?

Originally posted by rotiart
How do you compare the feats of two people when one has a greater level of power? For example:
which is better optic blasts like cyclops or heat vision from say superman...

Besides mm there are not many pure matter manipulaters at the levels of what you guys compare to reality warpers...

I can't even think of one. So u guys win I guess? cyclops optic blast>superman heat vision tho

Molecule Man could do both.

i can't think of a reality manipulation feat on owen's part right off hand. which feat(s) were you referring to?

umm

Well, he recently created that realm in Dark Avengers.

Originally posted by Galan007
i can't think of a reality manipulation feat on owen's part right off hand. which feat(s) were you referring to?

umm

Well, the fight with Beyonder was warping reality, although this was like a passive effect.

And then recently, he turned Bullseye to water but it was still alive and able to move...

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Well, he recently created that realm in Dark Avengers. that can be molecular manipulation. unless the realm was able to talk or made entirely out of candy or something...

whe MM wuz fightin Beyonder: one of the "side effects" changed a 3D universe into 2D or somethin (matter manip cant do that)

its only side effect but it prove MMs power can do that

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
And then recently, he turned Bullseye to water but it was still alive and able to move... i'd consider that molecule/matter manipulation, more than reality manipulation.

Originally posted by Galan007
i'd consider that molecule/matter manipulation, more than reality manipulation.
I don't know, it sounds like reality manipulation. If you can't even give a half-assed scientific explanation then its reality manip.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't know, it sounds like reality manipulation. If you can't even give a half-assed scientific explanation then its reality manip. i missed the "still alive and able to move" part of his post. that alone would make it some sort of reality manipulation, me thinks.

Originally posted by Galan007
i missed the "still alive and able to move" part of his post. that alone would make it some sort of reality manipulation, me thinks.

Yeah, MM's power set is a little iffy tbh, it was implied by some cube beings that he could do far more than matter/energy manip, stating that he limited himself to 'mere matter and energy'...

Some of his more ambiguous feats could be him tapping into his potential to a greater extent...

bump vin

Im glad this thread got brought up, because some people fail to understand basic physics, it seems.

The universe, fundamentally, is made up of three-dimensional space, and 1 temporal dimension. Inside said universe, mass/energy exists. All matter ranging from galaxies to freakin' bacteria are made up of atoms/molecules. A molecular manipulator may be able to affect said mass/energy but not the universe itself. He can't, say, move an entire universe or warp it in any way (because space/time is different from matter/energy) . All he can do is affect physical matter, but this physical matter still exists within the 4D space/time continuum which is beyond a molecular manipulator's power.

Same power. Different names.

reality manip is what i typically consider magic. at the highest levels it doesn't matter but in general i'd def rank reality manip above molecular manip. in theory at least, one will adhere to some physical law, while the other has no **cks to give about physical laws.

Yeah.

High end reality manipulator could completely replace molecules with carvers, for example. Imagine the horror.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Same power. Different names.

Is that so? Tell me how molecular manipulation can affect a universe on a fundamental level? You realize that the spatial dimensions aren't made of molecules or atoms or quarks or any quantized units? Space is continuous while matter is discrete made up of individual particles.

How could a molecular manipulator just "wish" something to be a reality? for instance, to take Legion's feat as an example, how could a molecular manipulator -- who has absolute no control over space/time -- warp the universe into a box?

Hint: He can't.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
cyclops optic blast>superman heat vision tho

This is all that matters.

On topic: reality warping is better.

Lots of good examples in here. A matter manipulator can indeed turn you into glass, or water.

A reality warper would turn you into a fav childhood memory, or the letter 'b', or the colour indigo.....

Or you could become one with carver's soul.


...

.....

.......




Good God.

No one is on that level, not even sundipped multiversal World Breaker Sentry with Forum Speed Force....

Originally posted by operator616
Is that so? Tell me how molecular manipulation can affect a universe on a fundamental level? You realize that the spatial dimensions aren't made of molecules or atoms or quarks or any quantized units? Space is continuous while matter is discrete made up of individual particles.

How could a molecular manipulator just "wish" something to be a reality? for instance, to take Legion's feat as an example, how could a molecular manipulator -- who has absolute no control over space/time -- warp the universe into a box?

Hint: He can't.

I'm glad that we agree that's the same power with different names.

PS: You are trying to correlate real life science with comic books... That's a battle lost in advance.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is all that matters.

On topic: reality warping is better.

Lots of good examples in here. A matter manipulator can indeed turn you into glass, or water.

A reality warper would turn you into a fav childhood memory, or the letter 'b', or the colour indigo.....

Matter Manipulation = manipulation of matter

Molecule Manipulation = manipulation of all matter & all energy = Reality Manipulation

That's Marvel definition so far.

Both can transform an apple into an orange. Both can create apples and oranges out of thin air (visually speaking: nothing)
The difference is that molecule manipulators always need molecules to work with. If there aren't even air molecules around, then they won't be able o create something. Reality warpers don't care about stuff like that. They create something out of the absolute nothing.

*sigh*

More bullshit...

Reality Manipulators cannot manipulate reality if there is nothing too.

So again:

Reality Manipulation = Molecule Manipulation.

Here is Mad Jim Jaspers, whom cannot manipulate reality, because there is no matter or energy to manipulate:

"The sculptor of reality has run out of his clay."


https://i.imgur.com/e2fkXhS.jpg

Molecular manippers can turn everyone on the planet into an arsehead.

Reality manipulators can make it rain upwards and make everyone poop out of their peehole.

Originally posted by RealityWarper

*sigh* More bullshit...

*sigh* What a horrible example, but then again: It's you.
And I even made it easy for you by talking about apples and oranges.

Mad Jim Jaspers was warping the reality by transmuting matter. Once there was no matter around, he couldn't pull it off. We view the Sentry as a reality warper, who affects reality on a molecular level. At least sane people, who have read up on the Sentry do. You do completely other things, but then again: It's you.

We're talking about matter manipulation / reality warping by matter manipulation against ACTUAL REALITY WARPING, where there are no rules. Obviously for the discussion to have any meaning we have to talk about molecule manipulation vs reality warping at their absolute highest level. And there molecule manipulation can't compete with actual reality warping.
Below that there are levels to both these power sets. Plenty of cosmic abstract characters have reality warping, but they have their clear limits and someone like the Pre Retcon Beyonder is still multiple magnitudes above them in power and abilities.

Jamie Braddock for example is a reality warper, but he has even more limitations than someone like Mad Jim Jaspers. If you have the choice between actual reality warping and Jamie Braddocks version you clearly go with actual reality warping. You would even pick molecule manipulation over Jamie Braddocks reality warping.

Matter manip =/= Reality manip. A reality manipulator can do everything a matter manipulator can, but not vice versa. Matter is just a PART of reality.

Sorry guys, this is the best dumbed-down version I could come up with for the hard of understanding.

Originally posted by Enzeru
*sigh* What a horrible example, but then again: It's you.
And I even made it easy for you by talking about apples and oranges.

Mad Jim Jaspers was warping the reality by transmuting matter. Once there was no matter around, he couldn't pull it off. We view the Sentry as a reality warper, who affects reality on a molecular level. At least sane people, who have read up on the Sentry do. You do completely other things, but then again: It's you.

We're talking about matter manipulation / reality warping by matter manipulation against ACTUAL REALITY WARPING, where there are no rules. Obviously for the discussion to have any meaning we have to talk about molecule manipulation vs reality warping at their absolute highest level. And there molecule manipulation can't compete with actual reality warping.
Below that there are levels to both these power sets. Plenty of cosmic abstract characters have reality warping, but they have their clear limits and someone like the Pre Retcon Beyonder is still multiple magnitudes above them in power and abilities.

Jamie Braddock for example is a reality warper, but he has even more limitations than someone like Mad Jim Jaspers. If you have the choice between actual reality warping and Jamie Braddocks version you clearly go with actual reality warping. You would even pick molecule manipulation over Jamie Braddocks reality warping.


LOL.

What an horrible pile of bullshit....

Go on more definist fallacy, like shooting yourself in the foot isn't enough, Donald.


1) We are actually talking about Reality warping vs Molecule Manipulation


Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Which is better?
or are they the same effect just different sources of power?

Example MJJ or Mxy for reality manip
Molecule man for Molecular manip


2) I actually proved that neither Molecule or Reality manipulators can affect stuff out of nothingness thus making your fan-cannon, again, a baseless claim, null & Void.


Have a good day, Donald.

Thought about it - changed my mind.

Reality manipulation at the highest level is not the same as molecular manipulation at the highest level.

A molecular manipulator can turn snow into adamantium. Can turn flesh into flame. Can turn candy into potash.

A reality manipulator can turn snow into talking dancing adamantium that has ten little wolverines for claws. Can turn flesh into the greatest hits by the BeeGees. Can turn candy into a half forgotten dream.

There are levels to everything

Originally posted by RealityWarper

2) I actually proved that neither Molecule or Reality manipulators can affect stuff out of nothingness thus making your fan-cannon, again, a baseless claim, null & Void.

No. You've done the same thing you always do: You've picked ONE instance, which supports your claim and you're treating that one instance as the only truth. But as I pointed out: There is more to comics than just one take on it.
You however ignore everything else and wonder why people treat you like a joke. Speaking of jokes: Stop mentioning Donald Trump. It makes you look even more stupid. You're a goof from France. You don't know anything about Americans and their politics. The only reason why you're mentioning Trump is, because you heard somewhere that it's cool to hate Donald Trump - and that a lot of people seem to do it as well. And now you're hoping to get people on your side due to them "getting the reference".

As I said:
At the highest end of the power scale, molecule manipulators are limited by the need for matter to manipulate. Actual reality warpers don't have such limitations. It's the definition of their power set. They're straight up omnipotent. We're talking about characters like the One Above All. The Presence. Man of Miracles.

Molecule manipulation means I can turn you into glass.

Reality manipulation means I can turn you into glass, OR into a story, or a song, or a childhood memory in an orphan's mind from Byzantium.

Originally posted by spetznaz

Thought about it - changed my mind.

Reality manipulation at the highest level is not the same as molecular manipulation at the highest level.

A molecular manipulator can turn snow into adamantium. Can turn flesh into flame. Can turn candy into potash.

A reality manipulator can turn snow into talking dancing adamantium that has ten little wolverines for claws. Can turn flesh into the greatest hits by the BeeGees. Can turn candy into a half forgotten dream.

There are levels to everything

Not sure I agree with that line of thinking.

In theory a molecule manipulator can do much of the same things. Molecule Man in Dark Avengers was affecting Norman Osborns memories. According to Molecule Man memories are made out of molecules as well and therefore he has control over them. So molecule manipulators have control over more abstract concepts and laws. On top of that there is always the creation of sentient life. They can do that as well. Even if it means to create sentient snow with Wolverines for claws.

In my opinion the only difference between the two of those is the requirement for matter of the molecule manipulators.
Pre retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man were good examples of that dynamic. I don't think it's crazy to say that the Beyonder was able to do anything he wanted. He was able to create everything out of nothing.

Molecule Man was super powerful, even after the retcon. But we saw him being dependent on matter to actually use his powers:
https://i.imgur.com/ZAPv2vo.jpg

Don't forget, reality warpers can mess with time as well....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Don't forget, reality warpers can mess with time as well....

I have considered that as well, but how would Molecule Man and Sentry factor into that?

Molecule Man fought Beyonder and their fight was affecting different timelines:
https://i.imgur.com/9tvXN1p.jpg

^ Would you say, that the timelines part came from the Beyonder only? I could get behind it, but still... ambiguous.

In my opinion Sentry sent his infitendrils of darkness back in time, once he was told one too many times that he is the angel of death:
https://imgur.com/AZZGolf
https://imgur.com/oItfgDq

^ Would you say that's the Sentry messing with time or Moses having the same powers as the Sentry? Arguments can be made for both instances, but that Moses argument just isn't sitting well with me personally.

Isn't reality messing with time more of a "This is how time flows now" sort of deal as opposed to going up and down timelines? If that makes sense.

There's really no reason it shouldn't have complete control over time but there seems to be some difference in comics. Also reality and time gems.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Molecule manipulation means I can turn you into glass.

Reality manipulation means I can turn you into glass, OR into a story, or a song, or a childhood memory in an orphan's mind from Byzantium. But what if my reality isn't your reality and you are already a song?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Also reality and time gems.

Originally posted by operator616
Im glad this thread got brought up, because some people fail to understand basic physics, it seems.

The universe, fundamentally, is made up of three-dimensional space, and 1 temporal dimension. Inside said universe, mass/energy exists. All matter ranging from galaxies to freakin' bacteria are made up of atoms/molecules. A molecular manipulator may be able to affect said mass/energy but not the universe itself. He can't, say, move an entire universe or warp it in any way (because space/time is different from matter/energy) . All he can do is affect physical matter, but this physical matter still exists within the 4D space/time continuum which is beyond a molecular manipulator's power.

Hey operator, one question. Sentry is a truly reality warper? Because in a Dark Avengers summary's says that he twisted the reality.

Originally posted by Enzeru
No. You've done the same thing you always do: You've picked ONE instance, which supports your claim and you're treating that one instance as the only truth. But as I pointed out: There is more to comics than just one take on it.

It doesn't matter if it's "one instance".

The definition of the reality in Marvel is that it's made of matter and energy.

It's still the case so far.



I don't care about people opinion and yours in particular.

You posted an opinion and the scan I posted proved you wrong.




I'm posting scans of Trump using the same kind of punchlines than you do.

Your personality seems very similar to his.





The definition of their power-set is that they manipulate the reality, which is made of matter and energy.

You can't get over being proven wrong, once more.

That's your problem. Not mine.




Definist fallacy again.

We aren't talking about true omnipotent characters.

It's nice to see you cornered again.XD

Marvel says illusion is the most powerful ability.

Originally posted by Enzeru
Not sure I agree with that line of thinking.

In theory a molecule manipulator can do much of the same things. Molecule Man in Dark Avengers was affecting Norman Osborns memories. According to Molecule Man memories are made out of molecules as well and therefore he has control over them. So molecule manipulators have control over more abstract concepts and laws. On top of that there is always the creation of sentient life. They can do that as well. Even if it means to create sentient snow with Wolverines for claws.


The writer may have simply took the materialistic approach toward the matter and regarded consciousness/thoughts as simply the interactions/firing of neurons inside the brain. Neurons are made of molecules and thus can be manipulated. Nothing abstract about that...

Originally posted by twt
Hey operator, one question. Sentry is a truly reality warper? Because in a Dark Avengers summary's says that he twisted the reality.

No he isn't a reality warper. He's a powerful molecular manipulator.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I'm glad that we agree that's the same power with different names.

PS: You are trying to correlate real life science with comic books... That's a battle lost in advance.

Eh, what? You do realize im mentioning fundamental and basic laws of physics which every single comic book adheres to?

For god's sake are you actually telling me that the universe is not made up of space and time? And that matter/energy merely exist inside the universe and are not its fundamental constituents?



Originally posted by RealityWarper
*sigh*

More bullshit...

Reality Manipulators cannot manipulate reality if there is nothing too.

So again:

Reality Manipulation = Molecule Manipulation.

Here is Mad Jim Jaspers, whom cannot manipulate reality, because there is no matter or energy to manipulate:

"The sculptor of reality has run out of his clay."


https://i.imgur.com/e2fkXhS.jpg

This truly shows how clueless you are.

The fury transported MJJ outside reality, outside space/time. That's why it is shown as being like a white blank page, it is devoid even of space and time. So yes, in a "place" where space/time nor matter/energy exists what is there left to warp? You're using a false example, because, say, you remove all matter from the universe, guess what? the universe still exists, there is space and time. A reality warper can still distort and shape that universe to his will. He can still shrink it, he can still warp it any way he likes. While the molecular manipulator? He can't do jack since there are no molecules to manipulate.

1) https://imgur.com/a/snOIUkL

2) https://imgur.com/a/pGPeIep

Look at those two examples, carefully. And try to understand the difference between them.

example #1: the illuminatrix transmutes the molecules of all physical matter, and manipulates its molecular structure according to its wielder's whims. It is merely affecting physical matter.

example #2: MJJ distorting the space in which said physical matter exists. Get it? Physical matter exists within the spatial fabric which a reality warper can manipulate. That spatial fabric is not made of molecules and can only be manipulated by a reality warper.

There are of course many more applications for reality warping. Altering history retroactively or erasing something from the 4D continuum are two examples.

With that said, this is my last post. I am actually leaving the forum and not coming back in the foreseeable future so i won't respond anymore.

Originally posted by operator616



Eh, what? You do realize im mentioning fundamental and basic laws of physics which every single comic book adheres to?

For god's sake are you actually telling me that the universe is not made up of space and time? And that matter/energy merely exist inside the universe and are not its fundamental constituents?


No.

I'm just saying that you are trying to apply your own, personal logic to what is happening here.

That's not only reaching but your are making a very personal reading of what is happening on panel.

The reality is made of both matter & energy.

Once it's gone, that's not the reality.

There is no need to pointlessly make a reaching that fit your own beliefs.

Reality manipulation and Molecule manipulation are two different names for the same power. Neither works without matter & energy to manipulate.





Oh sure. At least I'm not making-up my own story like you do.



You are reaching again.

And Molecule Man can manipulate space and time.

There is no need to interpretate stuff the way you are doing, everything is explained on panel.

MJJ had no reality to manipulate because there was nothing but the Fury and him.

Period.




That's nice for the Illuminatrix.



This neither prove your point or disprove what I posted.




Molecule Man has manipulated time.

That's the same power under a different name.




Ok

SMH

SMH

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111125827/4617290-1566407966-tgDtN.jpg

ermm

*cough*

Molecule Man got rid of the limitations he had in the past.

I still appreciate the general and candid approach of people in this thread.

reality manip is just better. good thread tho

he wasn't even close to what he later became though so not sure how relevant that scan is to the highest levels of the ability, though later he did seem more like a reality manipulator than strictly molecular. i mean his history is...asinine but he was considered a half a cosmic cube, no? that in itself means at his foundation he could alter reality for at least some of his history. not sure own is the best example to use when we're comparing the 2 powers. his own power set was hardly definitive or consistent. the current version seems at least as ridiculous as the sw versions maybe.

Guys, just something for you to ponder: Don't report people when you're doing the exact same thing they are, or close to it. Mods don't like that, and are just as likely to ban you.

==

And yes, Reality Manipulation is better.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
cyclops optic blast>superman heat vision tho

Let's all ponder the wisdom

What in the ****