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This is something that has been debated for a very long time. Martial Artists have been trained in tools that help utilize their movement and physics, but does that directly equate into fighting efficiency alone?

How about skill? We've seen arguments about how certain characters take down several opponents with skill? Well any character who has done that wouldn't be considered skilled based on the fact that they haven't taken a Martial Arts Class?

How does it work? What is the comic/forum's belief on skill on this site and MA ability, and how it coorelates? Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?

What about experience? Should characters like Thor and Herc who have lived for a very long time but haven't been in a traditional Martial Arts class or training session be considered less skilled? Should Punisher be considered less skilled when he does things with no powers at all?

Debate, poll, discuss.

I think MA gives you an edge/big advantage to a certain degree depending on how big the difference between the 2 combatants is, at a certain point MA/skill are useless IMO. The big exception for that is Karate Kid (wich I absolutely hate) it totally ruins the fact that other races are simply superior to others for example Kryptonians > Humans, so you "simply" have to train (of course it's not taht easy just making a point) to be able to take on the ones of Supes etc.

As with everything else in comics, MA are larger-than-life. Therefore, they should help against superhuman opponents, though still, not to where they strain the bounds of (even for comics) credibility.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I think MA gives you an edge/big advantage to a certain degree depending on how big the difference between the 2 combatants is, at a certain point MA/skill are useless IMO. The big exception for that is Karate Kid (wich I absolutely hate) it totally ruins the fact that other races are simply superior to others for example Kryptonians > Humans, so you "simply" have to train (of course it's not taht easy just making a point) to be able to take on the ones of Supes etc. Well in regards to that I believe that characters like KK and Gamora or on more of a cosmic level, much like SF characters. They have superhuman abilities *through* their fighting and aren't the same as what most people talk about when they use typical street levelers.

My opinion is MA does help, but it does *not* equal skill alone. Skill is simply determined on how you utilize something. I guess it always gets me when people make these crazy claims that other characters have *no* skill even after doing similar things for decades. Of course a classic example is Spiderman. Does he have skill? Absolutely, but it isn't from a karate class, his moves look and are skillful, but get the job done. It's *his* own unorthodox style. Now could he benefit from training? Yes, anybody can, but he wouldn't use the exact same moves as it would probably slow him down anyways. He needs to integrate it into his thinking.

Why is MA "ability" not the same as skill? Unless we are talking some mumbo-jumbo training, MA are just systems for hurting and killing people.

Thor probably learned how to fight when he was young too. Most warrior cultures did have extensive training for their young or at least the fighting caste. There is no reason you can`t call that MA training. You have schools today that teach various viking fighting techniques and those are also called Martial Arts. The term does not exclusively refer to eastern systems.

Personally I break it down like this:

Martial Arts skill - set of moves that just about anyone can learn with their skill level increasing as they gain proficiency and experience.

Martial Arts ability - an inborn proclivity towards a particular fighting style or styles. It cannot be taught so much as honed. For example, a person's body size, mental tendencies, life experiences could lead a person to be a natural born boxer.

just my 2cents

Originally posted by Mshinu
Why is MA "ability" not the same as skill? Unless we are talking some mumbo-jumbo training, MA are just systems for hurting and killing people.

Thor probably learned how to fight when he was young too. Most warrior cultures did have extensive training for their young or at least the fighting caste. There is no reason you can`t call that MA training. You have schools today that teach various viking fighting techniques and those are also called Martial Arts. The term does not exclusively refer to eastern systems. MA ability is MA skill but MA skill isn't the end all and be all for *total* skill. If Spiderman dodges 10 bullets and Wolverine dodges 10 bullets can we say that Spiderman is less skilled? He isn't formally MA trained but he has *skill* regardless if he uses powers, which someone like Logan does anyways.

You brought up a good point, MA is much more than what people make it out to be, and they were made up by people using their styles to suit their needs and environments. Someone like Spiderman and Flash's needs are much different than someone like Cap's, they have less restrictions with their body and therefore have no need for conventional moves. That's not to say training wouldn't help, hey everything helps, but it wouldn't be the end all and be all of that character.

So is Thor's and Herc's MA training? I'd suppose so, even if they don't use as many styles, they have been doing it longer. It is more about how you use the styles as opposed to how many you know.

Furthermore the training really gives you the tools to manipulate physics better, it however doesn't even equal fighting ability alone, many "Martial Artists" would get their ass kicked by non formally trained fighters. Does MA help fighting ability, usually, depending on the design for the Martial *Art* ( could be fighting, sports, healing, etc.). But it isn't the end all or be all of it.

C-MAster, im dumb, what kind of tools do you mean (in your 1st question).

Just because you take down a few people at a time does not = skill. If we are talking about people who do not have powers and also assuming the people he is fighting is near his skill level unlesss there is a shit ton of them and he still wins I would call it skill.

If your talkig about just having skill in general? I think it's two very different things. I mean Bullseye got crazy skills but aint MA skills. Or Reed has invention skills and bats has detective skills. I do believe that greater your skill in MA = Greater your ability with MA (sans any sort of super abilities). ....."Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?" I don't think we can go on that alone unless. It was some kind of off panel reference but again a whole debate should not hinge on this or any unshown but stated skill. Just doesn't hold as much water as seeing the chracter actually beat up on the guys.

IMO Experience should count for alot. Even though they have not trained in MA they know the way they fight. They have fought so long obviously they know what works but I would say Thor learning wingchung would definitly help but what he does now is just fine. Thor is teh master of hammer fighting (or whatever) I would say enough experience hones your skills. I would say the punisher skills are not in MA but in dealing with threats and finding any means to win. I mean he does has some skillful shit but just because you have no powers does not mean you have don't have skill in fact thats how people who don't have super powers level the playing field, with skill.

The word skill referees to may areas such as MA, driving a car, Baseball etc.... MA is just part of many or the few skills one has.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
C-MAster, im dumb, what kind of tools do you mean (in your 1st question). I mean tools of physics, how to use your inertia correctly and how to properly throw a punch using correct physics and channeling the power from your legs instead of wildly flailing about. One has much more power than the other.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Just because you take down a few people at a time does not = skill. If we are talking about people who do not have powers and also assuming the people he is fighting is near his skill level unlesss there is a shit ton of them and he still wins I would call it skill.

MA ability is MA skill, but MA ability isn't directly fighting skill. I mean honestly if you saw someone wipe the floor with 5 guys at once with no formal training would you say he really *isn't* a skilled fighter? Or would you say some Dojo black belt who got beat down by one guy is a master fighter based on the black belt fact alone. The guy has to have skills and knowledge of combat to fight 5 people at once.

Now in comics if a character comes out of a fight with several people unscathed (or relatively so) it would be the same thing.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
If your talkig about just having skill in general? I think it's two very different things. I mean Bullseye got crazy skills but aint MA skills. Or Reed has invention skills and bats has detective skills. I do believe that greater your skill in MA = Greater your ability with MA (sans any sort of super abilities). ....."Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?" I don't think we can go on that alone unless. It was some kind of off panel reference but again a whole debate should not hinge on this or any unshown but stated skill. Just doesn't hold as much water as seeing the chracter actually beat up on the guys.

I meant both, it was always a bit annoying when someone said a character isn't *skilled* because they don't have MA training, which I find absurd to begin with.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
IMO Experience should count for alot. Even though they have not trained in MA they know the way they fight. They have fought so long obviously they know what works but I would say Thor learning wingchung would definitly help but what he does now is just fine. Thor is teh master of hammer fighting (or whatever) I would say enough experience hones your skills. I would say the punisher skills are not in MA but in dealing with threats and finding any means to win. I mean he does has some skillful shit but just because you have no powers does not mean you have don't have skill in fact thats how people who don't have super powers level the playing field, with skill.

Experience always counts, and I definitely don't think those without powers don't have skills, I'm really saying that it seems the ones who don't have them rely on them more, or even worse, people attribute their wins on panel due to skills since they have nothing else that would make them logically win.

A punch from Spiderman- a punch, the same exact punch from Cap is a super death strike secret move that hits 18 nerve clusters at once, even though the form and everything is the same on said punch.

MA ability = MA skill and not overall Skill.

If one doesnt have MA skill or ability, hes just a good fighter.

Well MA ability is an important part of a nutritious break- I mean its an important part of skill. There are other factors as well though, most importantly being tactical acumen. Look at Midnighter, he never loses h/h fights and yet he never really seemed to be a sort of "I know every fighting style in the world" guy. Same with Deathstroke, though to be fair in both cases they aren't normal humans.

MA ability is vastly overrated on KMC in general. While it helps people win fights, it isn't the be all and end all.

Plus, plenty of brawlers are considered skilled.

Originally posted by -Pr-
MA ability is vastly overrated on KMC in general. While it helps people win fights, it isn't the be all and end all.

Plus, plenty of brawlers are considered skilled. I agree with you there, it wasn't the case when I first joined, but since 07, MA skill meant someone could take people way out of their physical league like Herc and Thor and I shook my head at that point.

MA skill is useful if they rely on it. Would Superman benefit from a traditional karate class? No, but he might use some strategy tips from someone like Wonder Woman who is similar in power and flight.

There was an old common sense analogy, if you pit a Black Belt against a Polar Bear with h2h only, the Black Belt wouldn't win would he? No, so how could he be a better fighter? He'd be more technical and proficient, but he is outclassed in that regard.

Can an Olympic skilled runner beat a cheetah in a race? No, and once again skill is good on a comparative level but it has its limits against things much higher.

It isn't the end all and be all in real life or in comics, it helps but it isn't synonymous with fighting ability alone. Also application and knowledge are two different things entirely.

Originally posted by -Pr-
MA ability is vastly overrated on KMC in general.
http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/pray.gif

I sense another potential thread in the making... Best to let this get discussed first though.

One example of this whole debate is Cap A

He does have formidable MA training etc, but not as much as many others such as Iron Fist, Shang Chi etc

That being said, in the context of overall combat skill Cap is easily up there with those guys, due to the the way he's uses his training etc.

Spiderman is another example, he doesn't really have any MA fighting skills, but in combat he is incredibly skilled due to his experience and his physical abilities.

Originally posted by -Pr-
MA ability is vastly overrated on KMC in general. While it helps people win fights, it isn't the be all and end all.

Plus, plenty of brawlers are considered skilled.

Not when it comes down to Batman, Iron Fist, Elektra etc...they would stomp any brawler.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Not when it comes down to Batman, Iron Fist, Elektra etc...they would stomp any brawler.

Not if they're just using skill and the guy has cl100 strength and durability.

outside of PIS/CIS, of course.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
One example of this whole debate is Cap A

He does have formidable MA training etc, but not as much as many others such as Iron Fist, Shang Chi etc

That being said, in the context of overall combat skill Cap is easily up there with those guys, due to the the way he's uses his training etc.

Spiderman is another example, he doesn't really have any MA fighting skills, but in combat he is incredibly skilled due to his experience and his physical abilities.

It's about how you use what you have versus having dozens of styles, if that's the case Batman would always win.

There is also a suspension of disbelief that has to be maintained. If Batman Batkicks the Hulk in normal conditions, we shouldn't take those seriously.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not if they're just using skill and the guy has cl100 strength and durability.

outside of PIS/CIS, of course.

Well yeah, Batman and his MA wouldnt do shit against Juggs...so the match ups would have to be kinda fair.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Well yeah, Batman and his MA wouldnt do shit against Juggs...so the match ups would have to be kinda fair. So tell me, do you think Wolverine would be more formidable if he only had skills with his claws and no healing, or healing and claws with no MA?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So tell me, do you think Wolverine would be more formidable if he only had skills with his claws and no healing, or healing and claws with no MA?
MA is just one tiny aspect that constitute to logans formidability, his way of thinking (personality) makes up most of it.. We have seen him fight with or without healing, heck even without MA (berserk).. practically describe as primal, more of an animal..

MA is just one part of his skills.

Sounds about right, it is how you apply it and it enhances your ability (possibly), but it doesn't make the beast by itself.

Herc does know Martial Arts.

Hes a practitioner of Greco-Roman wrestling.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Herc does know Martial Arts.

Hes a practitioner of Greco-Roman wrestling. I agree, but people seem to think MA is only kicks and fancy punches, boxing is a MA.

Heh! You couldn't use MA if the mind is not up to the challenge; IE. afraid of getting hit, low confidence, etc..

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I agree, but people seem to think MA is only kicks and fancy punches, boxing is a MA.

Where do they say that?

Well mental factors definitely affect fighting capacity, with or without Ma. Which is why MA's get beaten by guys on the streets because they don't play by the same rules.Originally posted by The Nuul
Where do they say that? Say what?

That they seem to think that MA only applies to kicking and chops etc...

Remember Faora? She handled supes like a child with her skills.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Faora.jpg
http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superwhoswho/faora-action472.JPG

You might not find any MAists beating up polar bears in the real world but in comics.. it wouldn`t even be a high showing for many, even without other powers. The Phantom breaks the necks of lions and tigers all the time. Doom downed one with one strike.

well most people here voted that martial art skills is everything so the majority speaks for itself

'treadmill reflex'?


negates flying?

Originally posted by fggf
well most people here voted that martial art skills is everything so the majority speaks for itself The hell? We have multiple accounts? I left an hour ago and only 1 person voted that. But overall it is still losing to the people who disagree, I was just trying to specify what I meant if people thought MA was or wasn't the end all and be all of skill.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Remember Faora? She handled supes like a child with her skills.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Faora.jpg
http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superwhoswho/faora-action472.JPG

You might not find any MAists beating up polar bears in the real world but in comics.. it wouldn`t even be a high showing for many, even without other powers. The Phantom breaks the necks of lions and tigers all the time. Doom downed one with one strike. I agree that comic characters can do that fine, but they wouldn't compare on a base level to a higher level guy like Hulk in straight h2h.

Now I haven't read that comic, but she says she's as powerful as him *and* a much better *fighter*.

See if they are equally powered then yes skill matters, if they are equally skilled then yes power matters. I'm a MA myself, I believe in tech, but I train speed, strength, and everything else. There is a possibility you will face someone with more of one attribute than them, so why not have the others in your favor?

Also that is an exotic MA, but that's not my point. She can utilize her abilities better. Now would anybody who had learned that art automatically stood up to Superman? I don't think so myself.

plus, iirc, that's pre crisis.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The hell? We have multiple accounts? I left an hour ago and only 1 person voted that. But overall it is still losing to the people who disagree, I was just trying to specify what I meant if people thought MA was or wasn't the end all and be all of skill.

I personally think polls are useless on KMC

Originally posted by -Pr-
plus, iirc, that's pre crisis. Yea, that's a totally different world in itself...

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I personally think polls are useless on KMC I'm pretty jaded by them myself, but I opted to use it just this once. We have to many trolls and socks now, and I think that's a problem.

Well okay I guess it depends on a lot of things... Ma to me is a skill set... You are taught proper forms to punching kicking and where to hit to inflict the most damage... From my experience which isn't much... I knocked around a guy about my size back when we were both 14 freshmen in HD... I was a yellow belt in mine ... My friend was one below black belt in taekwondo...

Anyways I knock him repeatedly to the ground... Because although he was a higher belt in another martial arts... They sparred only once a month and we sparred every day we were there... And personally sparring teaches you more about actual fighting than anything else in my limited opinion

But then let's say you have two guys that both "spar" in their fields... Then it could be up in the air... Yes martial arts teaches you form... But Boone uses any of the fanciful stuff in a real fight. Saying you took martial arts is like saying I weight trained.. You conditioned your body to react well in a fight...

And size and speed obviously play a role.

I don't think sparring replaces a real fight completely because at the end of the day it is sparring and you know that there will be tap outs or breaks, not so in an actual fight, what if someone takes it all the way?

Sparring is good as a learning tool to utilizing techniques under more pressure though.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Martial Artists have been trained in tools that help utilize their movement and physics, but does that directly equate into fighting efficiency alone? I thought that was exactly what their training was designed to do.

How about skill?That's what you get with MA training.

How does it work? What is the comic/forum's belief on skill on this site and MA ability, and how it coorelates? Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?'Ability' can be inborn (eg, good high jumper), or it can be acquired through training. If the latter, it becomes a skill. If the martial artist dominates his peers with his skills, we may say he has a lot of natural ability.

As for using a character's never-seen stated skill? Depends on the character, ie, what's 'in character' for them, their powerset, etc.

What about experience? Experience is the best teacher. Builds character as well as skill.

Originally posted by Ambient
MA is just one tiny aspect that constitute to logans formidability, his way of thinking (personality) makes up most of it.. We have seen him fight with or without healing, heck even without MA (berserk).. practically describe as primal, more of an animal..
The way Battlehammer describes it, Wolverine's berserker rage thing seems to be less of a beserker rage and more of a strength, regen, attack speed, and intelligence buff. Also he looks angry while doing it.

Originally posted by Mindship
I thought that was exactly what their training was designed to do.

That's what you get with MA training.

'Ability' can be inborn (eg, good high jumper), or it can be acquired through training. If the latter, it becomes a skill. If the martial artist dominates his peers with his skills, we may say he has a lot of natural ability.

As for using a character's never-seen stated skill? Depends on the character, ie, what's 'in character' for them, their powerset, etc.

Experience is the best teacher. Builds character as well as skill. I guess my point was that MA skill isn't just "skill" in general when referring to a character, and that MA ability didn't determine fighting efficiency alone. In the end it is who wins the fights. Now if someone inherited those abilities through a power, it is still a skill based on your definition somewhat, it is a part of them.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
The way Battlehammer describes it, Wolverine's berserker rage thing seems to be less of a beserker rage and more of a strength, regen, attack speed, and intelligence buff. Also he looks angry while doing it. That one was confusing, why not always be beserk?

Originally posted by -Pr-
MA ability is vastly overrated on KMC in general.

I feel the same way. Sure knowing MA is great and all but some people believe that just cause someone has MA training it puts him above ANYONE who doesn't have it. And yeah, im talking about the "any dude with MA > Spider-man" crap. His powrs + years of fighting experience more than make up for his lack of MA skills.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
The way Battlehammer describes it, Wolverine's berserker rage thing seems to be less of a beserker rage and more of a strength, regen, attack speed, and intelligence buff. Also he looks angry while doing it.
It a rage he goes into which pumps his adrenalin beyond it max and increase every one of his physical abilities while maintaining his mind ability to come up with strategies in compressed amount of time. among other things.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That one was confusing, why not always be beserk?

Because it extremely dangerous. A lot of the times he goes Berserker he not even completely berserk. It makes him see in red and few everything as target/prey. He will kill anything in sight when completely gone which is what makes him so dangerous he a walking killing machine who blood thirst can't be quench. Which is why he can't allow it to take hold, becuase if he ever let it completely consume him he kill friend or foe with out hesitation.

Well that's the definition of berserk, it is more than a "stat increase" but he thinks the same, see what I mean?

I think that the fact that people developed thier own skill in order to invent/found martial arts justifies the possibility that a charcter could in theory develop fighting skill over time that is in effect just as good or better than any established form other "certified" MA artists employ......especially when it is most likely to contour to and enhance their own strengths/abilities.


bottomline.....i don't think MA ability is so vital. if a character who begun with no skill in fighting fights a million different times over a lengthy amount of time, they will develop fighting skill......even seperate from their own special powers, whatever they may be

Exactly, they had to start somewhere. I know you are talking about Spiderman and his own unorthodox style, that style works because it is unpredictable, fighting someone who you haven't seen move like that before is difficult. Now he could benefit from learning some new things (not necessarily Earth moves), but any character benefits from learning something new.

c-master you are talking too much bullcrap to be honest because MA is what skills are all about you idiot

Well Superman did become a much more effective fighter after Wildcat taught him boxing but its not like if you don't have MA skill of some sort you're a bad fighter automatically.

Spidey doesn`t have any "style". He is just bouncing about, riding his spider sense and throwing sloppy attacks. He is no more "skilled" than a middle school bully who uses size and strength to his advantage. Used to mix it up perhaps, but with horrible technique.

He would be an absolute beast if he took a few years to master an art under a good instructor. First step would undoubtedly be to unlearn a lot of bad habits that is part of his so called personal "style"

Agreed that most of Spider-Man's style relies on his speed, strength, and Spider senses but he's shown that he's still very agile while depowered.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8189/agilityacrobaticdisplay.jpg
He hasn't mastered any form of MA BUT he's got something that can be called his own "style" it's his acrobatic movements and he is pretty skilled in it.

MA overrated.

Yup, people on KMC generally over use MA. Sure it's a good way to get an advantage, but it's not everything. Size and strength and natural speed come into play.

Experience counts for a lot during a fight. A martial artist who have trained for years in a dojo but has never fought in a real fight will have a nasty surprise for him if he ever comes up against you average 6'3" nightclub bouncer.

i remember this one thread here where the superheroes' powers were all removed and put in a slugfest... and some guys here on KMC were arguing that wonderwoman (without powers) would beat thor (without powers) just coz of all her fancy MA which i think is purely BS.

Man we need better socks and trolls, they sure hack the polls up though, looks like we're 50-50. We do know that Spiderman was a wrestler, wrestling=MA.

Doesn't have a style? SS has a style, and he doesn't use MA, so does Odin, so do many characters without the need to move up. Hell Galactus has one. Stop thinking styles and skills as only kung fu, oh and his attacks are often much more graceful than other street level MA's who flail wildly about. But for some reason their haymaker is an automatic karate su permove, while other characters hits are just normal. *sigh*Originally posted by Mshinu
Spidey doesn`t have any "style". He is just bouncing about, riding his spider sense and throwing sloppy attacks. He is no more "skilled" than a middle school bully who uses size and strength to his advantage. Used to mix it up perhaps, but with horrible technique.

He would be an absolute beast if he took a few years to master an art under a good instructor. First step would undoubtedly be to unlearn a lot of bad habits that is part of his so called personal "style" You might want to look up the definition of skill then. And honestly how many characters rely on their powers? Wolverine does also. They did a "What if" about what Spiderman would be if he didn't hold back and he was a monster as well.

Also I agree extra training would benefit him, but he isn't a nobody without it, he's had his powers removed and was able to survive supervillians.

Basically the problem is that many posters on the forum are thinking about him using human abilities, which are much less useful for him. His style is unorthodox and goes with his power sets. He getting training would help his style of thinking, nothing more. What would he start doing? Normal Earth based moves where he stands still and does one hit a a time? Which is harder to defend? That or a person doing something unorthodox that is hard to defend against.

Take it from an actual MA with really good experience AND really high physical ability. And I'm not talking about these people who all think they know something because they watch UFC.

But since you guys love UFC as an example. Why did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu become so popular and effective? Pop quiz.

It was because the styles that fighters were using on this side of the globe were mainly boxing and poking tactics with no defense against ground and grapple based moves. When BJJ came about it was new and unorthodox and people didn't know how to defend against it, hence it was so powerful. Now everybody knows it and it is effective (but somewhat overrated). Would a guy with only BJJ knowledge stomp in MMA now? Hell no, he would be crushed by other competitiors.

But we must also look at stat gap, you can put me against a 12 year old 3rd degree black belt and he would get stomped (they are out there). My physical ability is much higher, much higher than an averge man's and much more a small kid. Hence why I train everything. It is all one pool really. Muai Tai users and wrestlers use their size, strength, and everything else. Smaller martial artists use their speed. So what? Fuel for the engine.

If they are evenly attributed and one has more physical training, that person will often do better.

If they are evenly s killed and one has higher stats, the other one will more often do better.

If one is a little more skilled, and the other is quite higher physically, the latter will still win because physical ability is always there. It isn't something you turn off. A "skilled" person still makes mistakes and are open to different things, hell the most skilled fighter can be beaten by an average Joe at the bar if he's hit the right way.

Now Parker with no powers isn't going to take on Batman, of course not, but he could take on an average or well trained man with no powers, I believe that. Even without his super powers he would still be more physically advantaged than most could hope to achieve that are normal humans, and he is still more dangerous with his powers and without that (what if) training, than he would be with the training and no powers.

Well in context: I have a friend that's actually about a head taller than me( I'm 5-10) and well over 240. He is a bouncer.. and passed the coast guard.

My friend Matt is army trained... Lean about 5-9
jp and Matt got into an arguing match. Jp threw a punch. Matt took it and hit him square in the chest. Jp wen down and couldn't breathe.

Jp also once found out he got his gf pregnant and punched out the side glass window of his car... Idiot went to the hospital for glass cuts on his hand...

:-)
I've seen other fights but that's the only one I know where anyone had any kind of training for actual fights

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Doesn't have a style? SS has a style, and he doesn't use MA, so does Odin, so do many characters without the need to move up. Hell Galactus has one. Stop thinking styles and skills as only kung fu, oh and his attacks are often much more graceful than other street level MA's who flail wildly about. But for some reason their haymaker is an automatic karate su permove, while other characters hits are just normal. *sigh*

No he doesn`t have a style, what he got is a collection of moves that are in no way rooted in solid basics, functionality or flow. After all these years he haven`t even learned to keep his guard up. Probably because he usually listens to his spider sense and instincts that just say "DODGE, move AWAY". His reliance on his powers is pretty much preventing him from getting better. Kinda like a strong guy who just focuses on overpowering his opponent instead of improving technique.

If you want to call Peter`s moves anything it is looser style.

Also it is kinda funny how you keep reminding us that you are an "actual MA", a "trained fighter" and "in excellent physical shape". Do you have anything to prove?

And yes, boxers for instance hit harder than untrained people. Do you really argue all those hours they train day after day year after year on perfecting their punches are for nothing?? *sigh* INDEED

Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.

Originally posted by Mshinu
No he doesn`t have a style, what he got is a collection of moves that are in no way rooted in solid basics, functionality or flow. After all these years he haven`t even learned to keep his guard up. Probably because he usually listens to his spider sense and instincts that just say "DODGE, move AWAY". His reliance on his powers is pretty much preventing him from getting better. Kinda like a strong guy who just focuses on overpowering his opponent instead of improving technique.
Yea, except he doesn't. First of all Spiderman holds back a lionshare of his ability and power, probaly about 80% most of the time, so he definitely doesn't rely on muscle. He relies on effective movement. That *is* his style, a style can be anything. There are styles people use to adapt when they only have 1 leg, or 1 arm, so why would powers be any different? Keep in mind it takes more skill to fight and subdue someone at half effort than it does to go all out. Takes more control, skill *is* control.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.

Originally posted by Mshinu
If you want to call Peter`s moves anything it is looser style.
Well he's done anything but lose in all of these years most of the time, and that's against superior odds, *against* characters with more strength and speed. I wonder why?

Originally posted by Mshinu
Also it is kinda funny how you keep reminding us that you are an "actual MA", a "trained fighter" and "in excellent physical shape". Do you have anything to prove? How many times have I said that? My point was there are many posers who act like they know and only watch fights and do nothing else. I've done fighting military wise (which is based more on getting the job done than being fancy), and your MMA stuff. Some others have done it as well. People who know me already know that, I've been here a long time. Nothing to prove to you or anybody else, ever.

The truth is in the content.

Originally posted by Mshinu
And yes, boxers for instance hit harder than untrained people. Do you really argue all those hours they train day after day year after year on perfecting their punches are for nothing?? *sigh* INDEED Yea, depends on the size of that boxer compared to the untrained person. Of course a person who knows how to hit and they are physically the same will be at an advantage, but if that person is much more physically dominant then no. That's why they have weight classes, I guess other attributes really matter.

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.


Yea, except he doesn't. First of all Spiderman holds back a lionshare of his ability and power, probaly about 80% most of the time, so he definitely doesn't rely on muscle. He relies on effective movement. That *is* his style, a style can be anything. There are styles people use to adapt when they only have 1 leg, or 1 arm, so why would powers be any different? Keep in mind it takes more skill to fight and subdue someone at half effort than it does to go all out. Takes more control, skill *is* control.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.


Well he's done anything but lose in all of these years most of the time, and that's against superior odds, *against* characters with more strength and speed. I wonder why?

How many times have I said that? My point was there are many posers who act like they know and only watch fights and do nothing else. I've done fighting military wise (which is based more on getting the job done than being fancy), and your MMA stuff. Some others have done it as well. People who know me already know that, I've been here a long time. Nothing to prove to you or anybody else, ever.

The truth is in the content.

Yea, depends on the size of that boxer compared to the untrained person. Of course a person who knows how to hit and they are physically the same will be at an advantage, but if that person is much more physically dominant then no. That's why they have weight classes, I guess other attributes really matter.

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.


Yea, except he doesn't. First of all Spiderman holds back a lionshare of his ability and power, probaly about 80% most of the time, so he definitely doesn't rely on muscle. He relies on effective movement. That *is* his style, a style can be anything. There are styles people use to adapt when they only have 1 leg, or 1 arm, so why would powers be any different? Keep in mind it takes more skill to fight and subdue someone at half effort than it does to go all out. Takes more control, skill *is* control.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.


Well he's done anything but lose in all of these years most of the time, and that's against superior odds, *against* characters with more strength and speed. I wonder why?

How many times have I said that? My point was there are many posers who act like they know and only watch fights and do nothing else. I've done fighting military wise (which is based more on getting the job done than being fancy), and your MMA stuff. Some others have done it as well. People who know me already know that, I've been here a long time. Nothing to prove to you or anybody else, ever.

The truth is in the content.

Yea, depends on the size of that boxer compared to the untrained person. Of course a person who knows how to hit and they are physically the same will be at an advantage, but if that person is much more physically dominant then no. That's why they have weight classes, I guess other attributes really matter.

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too. What BUSTER1 said.

Originally posted by Tha Mshinu

If you want to call Peter`s moves anything it is looser style. His fighting style is based on his super speed, strength and agility, it uses all his advantages to the fullest and that helps him to defeat faster and stronger opponent, as for people with MA skills but no super powers going all out he can bitchslap any of them into ko including Bats and Cap.

pretty much what C-Master said.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
It a rage he goes into which pumps his adrenalin beyond it max and increase every one of his physical abilities while maintaining his mind ability to come up with strategies in compressed amount of time. among other things.




Because it extremely dangerous. A lot of the times he goes Berserker he not even completely berserk. It makes him see in red and few everything as target/prey. He will kill anything in sight when completely gone which is what makes him so dangerous he a walking killing machine who blood thirst can't be quench. Which is why he can't allow it to take hold, becuase if he ever let it completely consume him he kill friend or foe with out hesitation.
The name is never going to stop bugging me. It's more like the boy's power on Wanted plus a temporary alignment change than anything else. People who are in berserk rages are like people on PCP who are blitzed out of their gourd, not people with enhanced physical and mental capabilities but have a hard on for killing.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.

I`m not the one calling you an MA junkie. Perhaps you should reflect on what you just said yourself. Anyway I don`t watch UFC and hardly any sports at all thank you very much.




That he can do acrobatics does not mean his fighting can be called effective or functional. Sure, skill is control but having learned to pull your sloppy punches does not make you good.



It is taught at basic level, however so is repositioning yourself in the right place. Just following instincts will make you overcompensate, waste energy and time as well as cost you the opportunity to counter. As for his guard, the arms are flailing all over the place instead of protecting his face.



What is your point here? You already agreed Spidey got no basics.




First of all his powers IS a very nice package. Also, acrobatics, spider sense, smarts, luck and timely backups keeps him alive. His record also includes a fair share of MAists getting the better of him.



Good for you, just asking because you do seem to bring it up quite often. Anyway I am a former sergeant and 2nd lieutenant myself.





Of course attributes matter. That does not mean spidey`s punch is "the same" as cap`s even if they look similar on panel. One is a sloppy amateur move relying on speed, the other a master`s strike, a near perfect application of the appropriate force to a particular target in that instant.



Spidey`s durability (as it is called on comic forums) does of course benefit him in a fight. He still hurts his hand from time to time tho, probably in part because he doesn`t know how to punch properly. Anyway there are plenty of styles that do not train to harden the body beyond what regular exercise will do to you.

Most places today in the real world today teach bogus MA, true. The average comic character however will not have trained at a McDojo. The arts are also shown as being much much more effective and easy to learn in comics. It is not unusual to see someone take a crash course in monkey-poo-fu and then go beat up a whole gang of thugs or ninjas by himself. Top tiers like Temugin can take apart vastly superior foes like Iron Man. Silly perhaps, but so is a nerd getting bitten by a radioactive spider and gain superpower from it.

Originally posted by SamZED
His fighting style is based on his super speed, strength and agility, it uses all his advantages to the fullest and that helps him to defeat faster and stronger opponent, as for people with MA skills but no super powers going all out he can bitchslap any of them into ko including Bats and Cap.

He is in no way using his advantages to the fullest, proper training would benefit him immensely.

It is usually Cap who slams Peter around like a nice little practice dummy..

Also him going all out actually makes him easier to deal with according to DD. Not suprising since he is not skilled at it.

Originally posted by Mshinu
He is in no way using his advantages to the fullest, proper training would benefit him immensely.

It is usually Cap who slams Peter around like a nice little practice dummy..

Also him going all out actually makes him easier to deal with according to DD. Not suprising since he is not skilled at it. Yeah, look at him using his "loser" style to beat the crap outta over a hundred warriors with guns and swords.
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7592/feat15skills4ot7.jpg
Or his "loser" skills to use Iron Fist's own attack against him.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1588/spideyvsironfist2i2ff.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4728/feat39fight9ey0.jpg
What you and some other people dont understand is his abilities on par with his years of fighting experience make him more than just a match for any trained MA fighter and that is while holding back. As for going all out, I dont care what Daredevil said but Parker koed him with one lazy punch when Matt slightly pissed him off and started a fight. Same could be said about Taskmaster, Bullseye and many others. They all can hold their own against him but their ma skils never help them against POed Parker, as for Captain America the two things saving him from geting his ass kicked by Spider-man is his name and Parker's CIS and that was made clear many times in the comics.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah, look at him using his "loser" style to beat the crap outta over a hundred warriors with guns and swords.
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7592/feat15skills4ot7.jpg

A hundered jobbers you mean. Groups of ninjas or whatever are routinely taken down in comics by non-superpowered heroes.



Hard to see what he is actually doing with the webs there. Anyway if spidey wanted to be in that "perfect position" why did he not just jump there in the first place? Just the regular spidey trash talk if you ask me.



Of course his abilities compensates for lack of skill, why would it be otherwise?

PO`ed parker uses what little skill he has even less. Hits harder sure but in every other aspect he is easier to handle.

Originally posted by Mshinu
A hundered jobbers you mean. Groups of ninjas or whatever are routinely taken down in comics by non-superpowered heroes. Not over a hundred of them at the same time with machineguns and swords, no they dont. And without getting hurt that is.


Originally posted by Mshinu

Hard to see what he is actually doing with the webs there. Anyway if spidey wanted to be in that "perfect position" why did he not just jump there in the first place? Just the regular spidey trash talk if you ask me.
Not really, he used the attack and momentum so he could web IF's legs (normally IF would've dodged the webbing) and slam him into the sign.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Of course his abilities compensates for lack of skill, why would it be otherwise?

PO`ed parker uses what little skill he has even less. Hits harder sure but in every other aspect he is easier to handle. Thatr's not how it goes in comics though, and by poed I do not mean Parker charging headfirst into a fight like an idiot, i mean fighting like he usually does, except taking the fight more seiously and holding back less than usually. When that happens he takes down trained fighters without much trouble.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I`m not the one calling you an MA junkie. Perhaps you should reflect on what you just said yourself. Anyway I don`t watch UFC and hardly any sports at all thank you very much.




That he can do acrobatics does not mean his fighting can be called effective or functional. Sure, skill is control but having learned to pull your sloppy punches does not make you good.



It is taught at basic level, however so is repositioning yourself in the right place. Just following instincts will make you overcompensate, waste energy and time as well as cost you the opportunity to counter. As for his guard, the arms are flailing all over the place instead of protecting his face.



What is your point here? You already agreed Spidey got no basics.




First of all his powers IS a very nice package. Also, acrobatics, spider sense, smarts, luck and timely backups keeps him alive. His record also includes a fair share of MAists getting the better of him.



Good for you, just asking because you do seem to bring it up quite often. Anyway I am a former sergeant and 2nd lieutenant myself.





Of course attributes matter. That does not mean spidey`s punch is "the same" as cap`s even if they look similar on panel. One is a sloppy amateur move relying on speed, the other a master`s strike, a near perfect application of the appropriate force to a particular target in that instant.



Spidey`s durability (as it is called on comic forums) does of course benefit him in a fight. He still hurts his hand from time to time tho, probably in part because he doesn`t know how to punch properly. Anyway there are plenty of styles that do not train to harden the body beyond what regular exercise will do to you.

Most places today in the real world today teach bogus MA, true. The average comic character however will not have trained at a McDojo. The arts are also shown as being much much more effective and easy to learn in comics. It is not unusual to see someone take a crash course in monkey-poo-fu and then go beat up a whole gang of thugs or ninjas by himself. Top tiers like Temugin can take apart vastly superior foes like Iron Man. Silly perhaps, but so is a nerd getting bitten by a radioactive spider and gain superpower from it. Ok, so where did I say he has no basics, and 2, can you show me examples of sloppy style vs all other fighters, because they run in and charge (i.e Wolverine) quite often. There is no difference, one character is assumed to be fighting better by being MA and no other reason. 99% of the time that is the case.

I don't bring up anything often really because I don't like people in my business. Other people bring it up far more often than I do. Agree with you on McDojo's though. I do get that MA junkie vibe from you. Most go in threads and say Spiderman loses to everybody, even people he kills with one hit. Spiderman repositions himself much faster naturally also. And again I'm not saying he doesn't have room for any improvement because they all do, it's just that he does have skill.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Ok, so where did I say he has no basics, and 2, can you show me examples of sloppy style vs all other fighters, because they run in and charge (i.e Wolverine) quite often. There is no difference, one character is assumed to be fighting better by being MA and no other reason. 99% of the time that is the case.

I can`t find where you said that so I must have misinterpeted one of your posts. My apologies.

Would you say that spidey posess good basics then? For fighting I mean, not acrobatics.

As for wolvies claws-first flying charge I`ve always found it strange that he does those. Good against ninja fodder perhaps but not real opponents. Leaving the ground is generally risky in the real world but it looks flashy and probably sells more comics.



So, when you call me an MA junkie what does that mean? I haven`t even jacked off while watching kung fu panda lately

Not saying spidey looses to everybody, I am just saying in comics MA is treated like a superpower and top skilled characters can hang with superpowered ones like spidey and even above.

Well that's what I mean. Where are these guys consistently doing great form and everything because generally I don't see it.

It`s comics, you can`t expect the writers and artists to be experts on the subject of functional martial arts.

Powers, including martial art skill, just need to be depicted dramatically.

Well that's what I mean, aren't we really just assuming then? About if they are using it or not? If anything Peter's moves often look more complex really by depiction.

lot of arguement about spidey being skilled or not here. Here's my opinion concerning it:

I'm not saying spidey certainly is skilled or that it has been definitely proven in his comic appearances.......but in theory, I think spidey, and anyone else who regularly engages in combat for years, would inevitably develop some form of skilled fighting, or their own "style".

If I simply decided to just go out fighting one day......and continued to do so for years......eventually i'd become a better fighter and develop some rough method or at least several routine moves of my own making. How do you think those who established MA's did so themselves? they made them up.......and who's to say I(or spidey or anyone else) couldn't be just as successful as them in creating their own form of fighting.......well, maybe not as successful, seeing as more than one person has employed and refined those styles over many, many years......but you get the basic concept.

Now people may be thinking that this theory is off, seeing as spidey has always had his powers to aid him in combat, therefore more or less eliminating the need to develop a style.......but remember this, Spidey doesn't and hasn't always gone up against those who he outmatches physically due to his powers.....he tackles more than just street thugs. he's battled those as strong or stronger, as fast/agile or faster/more agile, etc, etc.......what enables him to beat opponents that have him in these physical areas? if it's roughly a level playing field physically, then it's just like one average guy vs another.......how then would he come out with no skill to speak of?

edit:

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If anything Peter's moves often look more complex really by depiction.
yes......I'd even go as far to say they look much more complex/intricate than a lot of MA practitioners........some of the things he does just look simply.......what's the word?.......amazing.lol

In real life MA are helpful and the training alone is more then worth the time. However, they are not everything.

In comics MA are treated like superpowers.

I'd say SF characters and characters like Karate Kid and Gamora are superpowers, others are more assets than anything. Being a skilled boxer doesn't make you suddenly "super" at punching.

When they use the powers to break mountains or shoot fireballs with it, that's another story entirely.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I'd say SF characters and characters like Karate Kid and Gamora are superpowers, others are more assets than anything. Being a skilled boxer doesn't make you suddenly "super" at punching.

When they use the powers to break mountains or shoot fireballs with it, that's another story entirely.

I though about MA beating physically superior opponents with pressure points etc. Or a single person beating an army of trained fighters just with MA skill alone. In RL impossible.

People do the former in real life but of course not the latter. It would take great powers or physical superiority to do that. Then again mass amounts of people tend to job.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
People do the former in real life but of course not the latter. It would take great powers or physical superiority to do that. Then again mass amounts of people tend to job.

I mean superior like Grundy .

As for the mass jobbing, true, but not in RL, there even the best would be overwhelmed.

You mean Batman hurting someone like Grundy? That's PIS really.

Oh I agree. In real life the best fighter can be beaten by an average joe if he's caught off-guard. No way would the most skilled fighter beat dozens of men. They'd have to job.

If 616 Peter parker was temporarily depowered and, after a week of adjusting, went to a parallel universe to meet and fight an alternative Parker-who had trained in Ma but never had a fight, Ireckon 616 would win. This is because he is a seasoned fighter who's experience allows him to, among other things, anticipate his opponents moves.

Definitely, experience amounts more than anything really. Sitting in a dojo and never using it doesn't mean a whole lot, the real world doesn't play by those rules.

Of course I'm assuming the MA Spiderman is depowered as well right?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
This is something that has been debated for a very long time. Martial Artists have been trained in tools that help utilize their movement and physics, but does that directly equate into fighting efficiency alone?

How about skill? We've seen arguments about how certain characters take down several opponents with skill? Well any character who has done that wouldn't be considered skilled based on the fact that they haven't taken a Martial Arts Class?

How does it work? What is the comic/forum's belief on skill on this site and MA ability, and how it coorelates? Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?

What about experience? Should characters like Thor and Herc who have lived for a very long time but haven't been in a traditional Martial Arts class or training session be considered less skilled? Should Punisher be considered less skilled when he does things with no powers at all?

Debate, poll, discuss.
I voted MA is consider overall all skill.

All fighting are considered MA. Remember it is still an ART, and not just a science.

Spider-man for example, has a unique fighting style which would be still considered a MA. Greco Roman wrestling, which Hercules is a master of, is also a MA.

To be a MASTER of a certain MA means to master all the SKILLS of that MA. And to master the SKILLS one must have the necessary experience. That is to say, if one is a master at a MA then they certainly have the sufficient experience.

Now some MAs are superior to others. Also, some have learned a MA to relatively higher level than others who has mastered a different MA. That is why it seems that skill is seperated from MA ability. For instance, CA knows more different MAs than Iron Fist yet Iron Fist can hang with CA in h2h. This is because either IF's MA is superior or equal to any MA CA knows or IF knows his MA at a higher level than CA knows any of his MAs.

Lastly, It could be a either a detriment or advantage to know more different MA. Most think it could only be an advantage though, which is wrong. Knowing many different martial arts can possibly slow the speed of decision. For example, when I see a math problem it takes me a little more time than necessary to attack it since I'm initially and subconsciously trying to figure the most efficient way to tackle the problem. But if I only knew one very efficient way to do the problem then I would do it much faster without hesitation.

Remember, speed of decision plays a large role in fighting. But if one develops a habit of utilizing which technique from which MA to use in which situation without hesitation then knowing more different MA is a clear advantage. So when knowing more different MA then overall skill is indeed separated from MA ability.

You make some good points, but I think that MA ability might be MA skill, but it wouldn't be skill overall. There are so many aspects of skill, Spider Sense is a skill that Spiderman uses. Moving fast is a skill, driving is a skill. Reed has his skill(s), but MA ability is one part of a whole spectrum in the big picture.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You make some good points, but I think that MA ability might be MA skill, but it wouldn't be skill overall. There are so many aspects of skill, Spider Sense is a skill that Spiderman uses. Moving fast is a skill, driving is a skill. Reed has his skill(s), but MA ability is one part of a whole spectrum in the big picture.

I think a skill is something that can be learned. Spider-sense is a power not a skill. It can't be learned. Moving fast and driving are definitely skills. In MA one must not only be able to do a maneuver but they must be able to do it with sufficient speed, otherwise they can't do the maneuver and hence haven't mastered the Art.

Lastly we are only referring to skills that are useful in fighting. Not skills that can only be used in prep before the fight. Calculus skills won't help you in h2h. So Reed's skills are irrelevant in this discussion.

You are gaining skill, you become more experienced with Spider Sense over time, same thing with Brock Venom and Gargan Venom, MA will always be improved upon in time. Flash took time to master his powers, as did Superman. You put a younger version of those characters against themselves with equal power and the less experienced version would lose if they had just received the powers. They are powers but some are more skilled and creative when using theirs. Give a person Magneto's powers and they won't become as proficient as Eric, etc etc. Someone with Cyke's powers won't just immediately bank shots, now if they had super coordination it would help, but they would still have to hone it.

Skill is really just a big part of the picture. It isn't really hard to grasp, now in h2h those were learned and done overtime and perfected, a book didn't come out of the sky, no different than Spiderman's style, he learned and adapted and changed tools to what works best for each situation, no different than anything else really.

Ability vs skill....

Cyclops has the ability to fire concussive blasts from his eyes

After so many years of doing it, he has developed much skill with the beams.

Martial arts is less an ability than it is a skill.

Yep, but your skill also shows your ability to do it, it just isn't "granted" (for the Earth level anyways), cosmic MA or "superhuman MA" is generally different.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Definitely, experience amounts more than anything really. Sitting in a dojo and never using it doesn't mean a whole lot, the real world doesn't play by those rules.

Of course I'm assuming the MA Spiderman is depowered as well right?

Yeah he is depowered. sorry I should have said

Bump!

MA arts tends to go hand in hand with skill at least in the marvel U more so then the real world...

anyways MA tend to be viewed as a superpower in itself evening out the playing field with certain metas at least the elite MA'ers can..

this fight scene shows a pretty good representation of a MU MA'er of how he might view the fight with someone who might be slightly superior due to stats.

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There are some people who aren't *that* good in HtH who are some of the very best at using their powers, like Superman.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
MA arts tends to go hand in hand with skill at least in the marvel U more so then the real world...

anyways MA tend to be viewed as a superpower in itself evening out the playing field with certain metas at least the elite MA'ers can..

this fight scene shows a pretty good representation of a MU MA'er of how he might view the fight with someone who might be slightly superior due to stats.

wm_GxGsLvj8&feature=related I don't know about a superpower, I believe it is more of a style thing. A superpower would be like Iron Fist or Gamora to me, also, how much MA until it becomes a superpower?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You are gaining skill, you become more experienced with Spider Sense over time, same thing with Brock Venom and Gargan Venom, MA will always be improved upon in time. Flash took time to master his powers, as did Superman. You put a younger version of those characters against themselves with equal power and the less experienced version would lose if they had just received the powers. They are powers but some are more skilled and creative when using theirs. Give a person Magneto's powers and they won't become as proficient as Eric, etc etc. Someone with Cyke's powers won't just immediately bank shots, now if they had super coordination it would help, but they would still have to hone it.

Skill is really just a big part of the picture. It isn't really hard to grasp, now in h2h those were learned and done overtime and perfected, a book didn't come out of the sky, no different than Spiderman's style, he learned and adapted and changed tools to what works best for each situation, no different than anything else really.

cyke also has crazy accuracy and a better than normal sense of geometry.

That is true, that "helped" him get better faster, but he still has lots of skill, obviously.

it depend on the individual experience

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I don't know about a superpower, I believe it is more of a style thing. A superpower would be like Iron Fist or Gamora to me, also, how much MA until it becomes a superpower? when you can anticipate your opponents attack and hit nerve clusters that can take down a meta or a rhino...

Rhino jobs though and anticipation is part of MA. What metas do you mean?