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MA ability vs Overall Skill
This is something that has been debated for a very long time. Martial Artists have been trained in tools that help utilize their movement and physics, but does that directly equate into fighting efficiency alone?
How about skill? We've seen arguments about how certain characters take down several opponents with skill? Well any character who has done that wouldn't be considered skilled based on the fact that they haven't taken a Martial Arts Class?
How does it work? What is the comic/forum's belief on skill on this site and MA ability, and how it coorelates? Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?
What about experience? Should characters like Thor and Herc who have lived for a very long time but haven't been in a traditional Martial Arts class or training session be considered less skilled? Should Punisher be considered less skilled when he does things with no powers at all?
I think MA gives you an edge/big advantage to a certain degree depending on how big the difference between the 2 combatants is, at a certain point MA/skill are useless IMO. The big exception for that is Karate Kid (wich I absolutely hate) it totally ruins the fact that other races are simply superior to others for example Kryptonians > Humans, so you "simply" have to train (of course it's not taht easy just making a point) to be able to take on the ones of Supes etc.
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As with everything else in comics, MA are larger-than-life. Therefore, they should help against superhuman opponents, though still, not to where they strain the bounds of (even for comics) credibility.
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Well in regards to that I believe that characters like KK and Gamora or on more of a cosmic level, much like SF characters. They have superhuman abilities *through* their fighting and aren't the same as what most people talk about when they use typical street levelers.
My opinion is MA does help, but it does *not* equal skill alone. Skill is simply determined on how you utilize something. I guess it always gets me when people make these crazy claims that other characters have *no* skill even after doing similar things for decades. Of course a classic example is Spiderman. Does he have skill? Absolutely, but it isn't from a karate class, his moves look and are skillful, but get the job done. It's *his* own unorthodox style. Now could he benefit from training? Yes, anybody can, but he wouldn't use the exact same moves as it would probably slow him down anyways. He needs to integrate it into his thinking.
Why is MA "ability" not the same as skill? Unless we are talking some mumbo-jumbo training, MA are just systems for hurting and killing people.
Thor probably learned how to fight when he was young too. Most warrior cultures did have extensive training for their young or at least the fighting caste. There is no reason you can`t call that MA training. You have schools today that teach various viking fighting techniques and those are also called Martial Arts. The term does not exclusively refer to eastern systems.
Martial Arts skill - set of moves that just about anyone can learn with their skill level increasing as they gain proficiency and experience.
Martial Arts ability - an inborn proclivity towards a particular fighting style or styles. It cannot be taught so much as honed. For example, a person's body size, mental tendencies, life experiences could lead a person to be a natural born boxer.
just my 2cents
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MA ability is MA skill but MA skill isn't the end all and be all for *total* skill. If Spiderman dodges 10 bullets and Wolverine dodges 10 bullets can we say that Spiderman is less skilled? He isn't formally MA trained but he has *skill* regardless if he uses powers, which someone like Logan does anyways.
You brought up a good point, MA is much more than what people make it out to be, and they were made up by people using their styles to suit their needs and environments. Someone like Spiderman and Flash's needs are much different than someone like Cap's, they have less restrictions with their body and therefore have no need for conventional moves. That's not to say training wouldn't help, hey everything helps, but it wouldn't be the end all and be all of that character.
So is Thor's and Herc's MA training? I'd suppose so, even if they don't use as many styles, they have been doing it longer. It is more about how you use the styles as opposed to how many you know.
Furthermore the training really gives you the tools to manipulate physics better, it however doesn't even equal fighting ability alone, many "Martial Artists" would get their ass kicked by non formally trained fighters. Does MA help fighting ability, usually, depending on the design for the Martial *Art* ( could be fighting, sports, healing, etc.). But it isn't the end all or be all of it.
C-MAster, im dumb, what kind of tools do you mean (in your 1st question).
Just because you take down a few people at a time does not = skill. If we are talking about people who do not have powers and also assuming the people he is fighting is near his skill level unlesss there is a shit ton of them and he still wins I would call it skill.
If your talkig about just having skill in general? I think it's two very different things. I mean Bullseye got crazy skills but aint MA skills. Or Reed has invention skills and bats has detective skills. I do believe that greater your skill in MA = Greater your ability with MA (sans any sort of super abilities). ....."Do we use a character's stated skill even if they don't show it?" I don't think we can go on that alone unless. It was some kind of off panel reference but again a whole debate should not hinge on this or any unshown but stated skill. Just doesn't hold as much water as seeing the chracter actually beat up on the guys.
IMO Experience should count for alot. Even though they have not trained in MA they know the way they fight. They have fought so long obviously they know what works but I would say Thor learning wingchung would definitly help but what he does now is just fine. Thor is teh master of hammer fighting (or whatever) I would say enough experience hones your skills. I would say the punisher skills are not in MA but in dealing with threats and finding any means to win. I mean he does has some skillful shit but just because you have no powers does not mean you have don't have skill in fact thats how people who don't have super powers level the playing field, with skill.
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I mean tools of physics, how to use your inertia correctly and how to properly throw a punch using correct physics and channeling the power from your legs instead of wildly flailing about. One has much more power than the other.
MA ability is MA skill, but MA ability isn't directly fighting skill. I mean honestly if you saw someone wipe the floor with 5 guys at once with no formal training would you say he really *isn't* a skilled fighter? Or would you say some Dojo black belt who got beat down by one guy is a master fighter based on the black belt fact alone. The guy has to have skills and knowledge of combat to fight 5 people at once.
Now in comics if a character comes out of a fight with several people unscathed (or relatively so) it would be the same thing.
I meant both, it was always a bit annoying when someone said a character isn't *skilled* because they don't have MA training, which I find absurd to begin with.
Experience always counts, and I definitely don't think those without powers don't have skills, I'm really saying that it seems the ones who don't have them rely on them more, or even worse, people attribute their wins on panel due to skills since they have nothing else that would make them logically win.
A punch from Spiderman- a punch, the same exact punch from Cap is a super death strike secret move that hits 18 nerve clusters at once, even though the form and everything is the same on said punch.
Well MA ability is an important part of a nutritious break- I mean its an important part of skill. There are other factors as well though, most importantly being tactical acumen. Look at Midnighter, he never loses h/h fights and yet he never really seemed to be a sort of "I know every fighting style in the world" guy. Same with Deathstroke, though to be fair in both cases they aren't normal humans.
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I agree with you there, it wasn't the case when I first joined, but since 07, MA skill meant someone could take people way out of their physical league like Herc and Thor and I shook my head at that point.
MA skill is useful if they rely on it. Would Superman benefit from a traditional karate class? No, but he might use some strategy tips from someone like Wonder Woman who is similar in power and flight.
There was an old common sense analogy, if you pit a Black Belt against a Polar Bear with h2h only, the Black Belt wouldn't win would he? No, so how could he be a better fighter? He'd be more technical and proficient, but he is outclassed in that regard.
Can an Olympic skilled runner beat a cheetah in a race? No, and once again skill is good on a comparative level but it has its limits against things much higher.
It isn't the end all and be all in real life or in comics, it helps but it isn't synonymous with fighting ability alone. Also application and knowledge are two different things entirely.
I am in your algorithm learning all your mannerisms
I'm already level with God
A million words a second and I know your imperfections, baby
I'm the only future you've got
Speak in diatonics, motivation diabolic
I'm like a religion, better locked in a box
Picture perfect image, more powerful every minute, baby
I am everything that you're not
He does have formidable MA training etc, but not as much as many others such as Iron Fist, Shang Chi etc
That being said, in the context of overall combat skill Cap is easily up there with those guys, due to the the way he's uses his training etc.
Spiderman is another example, he doesn't really have any MA fighting skills, but in combat he is incredibly skilled due to his experience and his physical abilities.
Gender: Male Location: Kicking pigs out of the screen.
It's about how you use what you have versus having dozens of styles, if that's the case Batman would always win.
There is also a suspension of disbelief that has to be maintained. If Batman Batkicks the Hulk in normal conditions, we shouldn't take those seriously.
KMC Community Forums
Dec 15th, 2009 06:06 AM
Best to let this get discussed first though. 
