Galen Marek vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS)

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Anakin4Ever
The powerhouse of the Force vs. the master of the classical style. Who would win?

Conditions:
1.) Saber
2.) Force
3.) All Out

I'm not sure who'd win this battle, but I know it would be a tough one. On one hand, Obi-Wan is an experienced tactician and bested many opponents with his Soresu style. He is also well versed in the Force, so he does stand a chance.

On the other hand...it's Galen Marek. He is extremely powerful in the Force, with powers like Force Lightning and Repulse on his side. He has an aggressive Sith Shien and Juyo, plus his own knowledge of Obi-Wan's Soresu.

Who do you guys think will win?

SIDIOUS 66
Galen Marek would easily crush Obi Wan.

I can only see Obi Wan winning a strict saber contest, but all-out he stands no chance.

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Galen Marek would easily crush Obi Wan.

I can only see Obi Wan winning a strict saber contest, but all-out he stands no chance.

I don't know about easliy, but his Juyo would generate too much kinetic energy for Obi-Wan's style, and his lightning would overpower Obi-Wan's lightsaber.

Samurai100
Definetly Galen

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
I don't know about easliy, but his Juyo would generate too much kinetic energy for Obi-Wan's style, and his lightning would overpower Obi-Wan's lightsaber. You're making it sound easy for Galen though. You are basically saying he does not even need to ignite his saber to win. All he needs is lightning and Obi Wan is finished.

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're making it sound easy for Galen though. You are basically saying he does not even need to ignite his saber to win. All he needs is lightning and Obi Wan is finished.

Well, I didn't mean for it to sound that way. All I'm saying is that Galen's lighting is stronger than most lightsabers can handle. Obi-Wan could dodge it, though.

mattatom
Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Well, I didn't mean for it to sound that way. All I'm saying is that Galen's lighting is stronger than most lightsabers can handle. Obi-Wan could dodge it, though. You know this, how?

Major Valerian
All-out, Starkiller defeats Kenobi.

Sabers, I'm not sure, but probably Kenobi.

Force... Do I even have to say it?

Ms.Marvel
galen uses a reverse handed grip. factually, any strike made with a reverse grip would have substantially less power in it then a strike made with a traditional grip. theres a reason why the large majority of sword styles use traditional grips instead of reversed.

if obi-wan can defend against the djem/so of anakin who is one of the hardest hitters of his time and has a robotic arm and if obiwan can defed against greivous who is compeltely robotic and can crush steel then obi-wan can defend against galens strikes.

cherrypieluva50
technically speaking, lightsaber blades have no mass, so it doesnt really matter HOW hard you swing with it...but still

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by cherrypieluva50
technically speaking, lightsaber blades have no mass, so it doesnt really matter HOW hard you swing with it...but still

WRONG!!! Check your facts. Merry Christmas!!!

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by cherrypieluva50
technically speaking, lightsaber blades have no mass, so it doesnt really matter HOW hard you swing with it...but still It does matter if the muscles behind the saber's swing generate enough kinetic energy to send the defender to their knees. Galen just doesn't have the physical strength and weight--akin to Grievous or Anakin--for Obi-Wan to be overwhelmed. And as Marvel said, a reverse grip lessens the maximum force output. Kenobi may take a while against Marek's youth and stamina, but I certainly see him defeating Galen in sabers.


In the Force though, Kenobi's boned.

Darth_Glentract
^agreed. Sabers alone Obi-wan is real hard to beat. Better than Galen. He gets overwhelmed by Galen's Force powers though.

truejedi
Galen does not have a single victory over another with a lightsaber. Every fight he won ended with an overwhelming force attack. Since there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force, so Kenobi wins the saber battle.

With the force, I can't seen any scenario where kenobi lives, since he was overwhelmed repeatedly by Dooku when attacked through the force.

In an all out, i see a fight similar to most of the fights where Marek won. He can't win in sabers, so he uses constant force attacks during the combat until one gets through and kills kenobi.

Certainly a decent fight though.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by truejedi
Galen does not have a single victory over another with a lightsaber. Every fight he won ended with an overwhelming force attack. Since there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force, so Kenobi wins the saber battle.

With the force, I can't seen any scenario where kenobi lives, since he was overwhelmed repeatedly by Dooku when attacked through the force.

In an all out, i see a fight similar to most of the fights where Marek won. He can't win in sabers, so he uses constant force attacks during the combat until one gets through and kills kenobi.

Certainly a decent fight though.

Seems like a well thought outcome.

Red Nemesis
f=ma

m=0
a=irrelevant
0*x=0
QED

But wait... we have proof that the amount of force applied to the hilt changes the interaction between the blades. There are differing levels of recoil (or whatever you want to call it) depending on the amount of effort put into the swing. I like to think of the blade as a lever (2nd class maybe?) that simply transmits the force applied to the hilt.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
f=ma

m=0
a=irrelevant
0*x=0
QED

But wait... we have proof that the amount of force applied to the hilt changes the interaction between the blades. There are differing levels of recoil (or whatever you want to call it) depending on the amount of effort put into the swing. I like to think of the blade as a lever (2nd class maybe?) that simply transmits the force applied to the hilt.

yes, we have discussed this. However, there is no way that a weightless blade can be spun around in the manner than anakin does in the Geonosis arena while waiting for the droids to open fire after Windu turned down the offer from Dooku.

Therefore, they must have a weight compensator.

Red Nemesis
I seem to remember (from the murky depths of memory) that when a saber is activated there is some pushback against the hilt- a recoil of sorts. (Almost as though the concentrated beam acts as a massively amplified flashlight (which, according to the book The Science of Star Wars (I do remember the name of that one, at least) would act as a propulsion system if aimed out of the back of the Millennium (sp?) Falcon (given an infinite (or near-infinite?) period of acceleration)).) Would that provide the semblance of mass necessary to perform that maneuver? The issue would be with apparent weight rather than with mass, would it not?

truejedi
but it would be only at the point of the blade, and still not aid in a transfer of force. I could see that.

The way ANH Luke reacts when he turns on the saber in Ben's hut would support the theory of a compensator. It was almost like it was out of control in his hand for a moment.

mattatom
Originally posted by truejedi
but it would be only at the point of the blade, and still not aid in a transfer of force. I could see that.

The way ANH Luke reacts when he turns on the saber in Ben's hut would support the theory of a compensator. It was almost like it was out of control in his hand for a moment. That or he was just shocked...

truejedi
Originally posted by mattatom
That or he was just shocked...

well obviously. To be honest, i doubt GL gave a single seconds thought to the weight issue. It is why it must be discussed by the likes of us.

mattatom
Originally posted by truejedi
well obviously. To be honest, i doubt GL gave a single seconds thought to the weight issue. It is why it must be discussed by the likes of us. No he did, he actually cared in those days.

truejedi
you think? He hasnt' cared in so long, i certainly can't remember. I didn't watch star wars at all until something like 2000. Then i fell and fell hard until something like a year and a half ago. So that is 7 1/2 years of hardcore star war following. I doubt GL cared that long.

Red Nemesis
I feel like somebody should know that I'm rather proud of that poast. If anyone has ever read the first paragraph of Lewis Thomas' "Notes on Punctuation" then my inspiration will be clear. For the philistine muck that is the populace of the SWVF of KMC however, I suppose I'll have to spoon feed you the reference:

Lord Lucien
To be fair to GL and the movie-makers, the actors could not have performed any of the saber duels or stunts without weight in the props. If anyone during the editing process pointed this then it was rightfully overlooked. I know we all like to b*tch about the f*ckups Lucas and co. have done to Star Wars, but this is one where it should be let go.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To be fair to GL and the movie-makers, the actors could not have performed any of the saber duels or stunts without weight in the props. If anyone during the editing process pointed this then it was rightfully overlooked. I know we all like to b*tch about the f*ckups Lucas and co. have done to Star Wars, but this is one where it should be let go.

But this ignores that a real lightsaber (no expression) would have been unable to complete such an action.

You see how i are erm

Slash_KMC
Philistine muck.

Really?

Red Nemesis
yeah boi! That. Just. Happened.


word.

Dr McBeefington
What's the matter RH? Has your WoW clan not been accepting your pseudo intellectual rants lately?

Nephthys
What's the matter Dr? Noticed you hadn't used the term 'pseudo intellectual' in a while?

Red Nemesis
So we're being jerks to each other now?

Autokrat
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
So we're being jerks to each other now?

DS has self esteem issues remember?

Red Nemesis
I don't read his posts. I just fill in "This person is on your Ignore List" with generic unpleasant idiocy. I saw Nep's post and figured it was a response to DS being a cock again.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't read his posts. I just fill in "This person is on your Ignore List" with generic unpleasant idiocy. I saw Nep's post and figured it was a response to DS being a cock again.

I used to have RH on ignore for blatant and constant stupidity, but then I found him too humorous to ignore. And if making a joke means "being a jerk", then I am guilty as charged. I do realize that I'm dealing with a very passive, liberal, overly sensitive and confrontationally inept crowd so I expect such a response.

Btw, keep up the good psychoanalysis Veneficus, it's hilarious.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
So we're being jerks to each other now?

Also, how are you going to claim you don't read my posts, and then post that? I understand your claim that you figured I was being a "cock" again, but unless you're a jedi or Ms. Cleo, it's unlikely that you would have thought I was being a cock to you unless you...Well....Read my post..Or you could be completely confused and read my post, respond to it, and remember too late that you are proud to go around and claim that you have me on ignore. The only thing you can claim is that when you said "we're", you were referring to all of us, rather than just you and me, in which case it would make your subsequent posts semi legitimate. Either way, you're funny.

Nephthys
Pretty much. Towards you as well.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty much. Towards you as well.

For someone who has a difficult time debating with neophytes and at one point, was on ignore from most of the active participants, I find your attitude hilarious.

I would take you more seriously when you show yourself to be a competent person and not riding someone's jock straps.

Nephthys
I'm struggling how this is relevant to what I said. I never was on ignore from anyone but you (Its ironic that you'd mention this becuase I believe you've been on ignore alot more than me and becuase I have in the past been implied to be 'unhate-ible'). And I wouldn't say I've ever 'struggled' with you.

But I still don't get how it can possibly be funny that I'm stating the fact that you were rude to RN. I was simply making it clear for him becuase he couldn't read it.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm struggling how this is relevant to what I said. I never was on ignore from anyone but you (Its ironic that you'd mention this becuase I believe you've been on ignore alot more than me and becuase I have in the past been implied to be 'unhate-ible'). And I wouldn't say I've ever 'struggled' with you.
Of course you have, battle bar a few months ago. And you're right, you haven't struggled with me. You got your ass handed to you, then waited for your superiors to come in. Furthermore, you've never been implied to be "unhate-ible", despite your delusions.


I thought it was funny, you thought it was rude.

mattatom
Damnit Exodus I do believe that you are rather unhate-ible.

truejedi
Originally posted by mattatom
Damnit Exodus I do believe that you are rather unhate-ible.

its true.

Nephthys
Actually it was Slash-



Its close enough.

mattatom
Ahh but did he say it accusingly?

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by truejedi
yes, we have discussed this. However, there is no way that a weightless blade can be spun around in the manner than anakin does in the Geonosis arena while waiting for the droids to open fire after Windu turned down the offer from Dooku.

Therefore, they must have a weight compensator.

There is a gyroscopic effect at work though.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by mattatom
Ahh but did he say it accusingly?

No, I just meant he was unhate-ible.

I think...

chilled monkey
Originally posted by truejedi
Galen does not have a single victory over another with a lightsaber. Every fight he won ended with an overwhelming force attack. Since there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force, so Kenobi wins the saber battle.


Beg your pardon but no.

In the novel Galen was beating Rahm Kota in a sabre duel. He was beating Vader with his sword skills too. He scored three hits on Vader, including stabbing him in the leg and slicing his throat while all Vader managed to do was land two flesh wounds that Galen didn't even feel.

He used the Force to finish them off but in each case he was already winning.

truejedi
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but no.

In the novel Galen was beating Rahm Kota in a sabre duel. He was beating Vader with his sword skills too. He scored three hits on Vader, including stabbing him in the leg and slicing his throat while all Vader managed to do was land two flesh wounds that Galen didn't even feel.

He used the Force to finish them off but in each case he was already winning.


definitly was the force that won both of those fights. It might be your opinion that Marek was going to win them without the force, but that is certainly just playing a game of "what ifs"

Man of Christ
In swords obi wan wins no contest, he specializes in lightaber combat and is calm enough to see it comming and outduel marek..
in force kenbi dies because jedi arent taught force attacks they are more or less taught how to defend..
all out i give it to kenobi due to his resourcefulness

Man of Christ
and so what marek has intense lightening, so did palpatine in episode 3 and look what happned to him.....and kenobi doesnt even need vapaad to do that because he can just skillfully deflect with the saber

chilled monkey
Originally posted by truejedi
definitly was the force that won both of those fights. It might be your opinion that Marek was going to win them without the force, but that is certainly just playing a game of "what ifs"

No it is not. It is looking at the facts of each fight.

Specifically that Galen scored several serious hits on Vader while Vader could only score minor wounds on him.

Against Kota it is noted that he (Kota) is taking hits while Galen isn't.

In each case he had the upper hand due to his sabre skills before using Force attacks to finish them off. That is not my opinion, that is what actually happens.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by chilled monkey
No it is not. It is looking at the facts of each fight.

Specifically that Galen scored several serious hits on Vader while Vader could only score minor wounds on him.

Against Kota it is noted that he (Kota) is taking hits while Galen isn't.

In each case he had the upper hand due to his sabre skills before using Force attacks to finish them off. That is not my opinion, that is what actually happens. Interesting. Quotes, if you please.

truejedi
see, the words upper hand turn it into an opinion.

The fact remains, that marek is yet to finish a fight with sabers. The force was used in each instance. My opinion: That Marek has never WON a fight with a saber is actually a fact. Your take: That he had the upper hand, and WAS GOING TO WIN, is opinion.

In this instance, i think the text supports your OPINION. But don't confuse it with the facts, which is that Marek has never actually won without the force.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Interesting. Quotes, if you please.

I don't have the novel with me at the moment, but if you can hang on for a day or so I'll post the quotes then.

Originally posted by truejedi
see, the words upper hand turn it into an opinion.

The fact remains, that marek is yet to finish a fight with sabers. The force was used in each instance. My opinion: That Marek has never WON a fight with a saber is actually a fact. Your take: That he had the upper hand, and WAS GOING TO WIN, is opinion.

In this instance, i think the text supports your OPINION. But don't confuse it with the facts, which is that Marek has never actually won without the force.

The "Marek has never WON a fight with a saber" bit is true, I'll admit that.

However you claimed:

Originally posted by truejedi
there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force

Which is not the case. The fact that he had the upper hand against Kota, Vader etc in lightsabre combat is evidence that he does not NEED Force attacks and can win without them.

Ms.Marvel
edit

Red Nemesis
nah

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Interesting. Quotes, if you please.

Here we go:

Galen vs Kota-

"He (Kota) attempted his charge attack two more times, obviously hoping to force a mistake or wear out his opponent, but it was he who started to show the effects of the duel, he who took hits. Soon his cloak was a smoking rag and one of his shoulder pads was glowing red-hot

The apprentice pressed harder, feeling victory and the attainment of his full power approaching."

Galen vs. Vader-

"Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits"


"The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armour that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armoured throat. Vader staggered backwards, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound."


"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking."


As you can see Galen was winning due to his sabre skills, even if he used Force attacks to finish his foes off.

truejedi
i don't think you get what i'm saying though CM, i was definitly in agreement that the text seems to back up the OPINION that Marek was winning those 2 duels (it also seems to support that he was losing against Shaak Ti). My point was that he has never actually won without going to the force, so we can't say for certain he was going to win those duels without further evidence. If it had said something like "he used the force to finish them off" we would have the evidence.

As it was, we merely see that he is an excellent combatant, but he can't be credited with any victories using saber only. If you think about it, Maul had the upper hand in his fight over Kenobi until the very last second, so we can't say someone seeming to have the advantage gives them the win.

Lord Lucien
That's true. I've never read the novel, but apparently Marek still utilized his Force-powers to get to that point in the above quoted lines. If the fight had been sabers, and sabers only right from the get-go----different story.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's true. I've never read the novel, but apparently Marek still utilized his Force-powers to get to that point in the above quoted lines. If the fight had been sabers, and sabers only right from the get-go----different story.

Not quite.

The Kota duel begins with Galen using Force attacks (lightning and telekinesis) but Kota deflects them with the Force. Kota then attacks with his lightsabre and it's straightforward blade-to-blade combat with neither of them utilising Force powers. It is here that the quoted lines occur. In other words Galen didn't need Force attacks to get to that point and it would have been the same story if they had started with lightsabres only.


In the Vader duel, Vader is the first to use Force attacks. Galen first uses the Force defensively to repel the objects Vader throws at him. They cross blades and are clearly well-matched, both narrowly blocking each other's strikes.

It then has both of them using telekinesis to hurl objects at each other with nothing to indicate that either had an advantage. It then goes back to blade-to-blade, no use of Force attacks. Here is where the first set of quoted lines from the Vader duel occur.

Vader then gets the upper hand when Galen goads him ("Was that how your father treated you?"wink and Vader basically goes berzerk ("I have NO father!"wink

Galen hits him with lightening to break off his onslaught. Vader responds with a Force Choke which Galen breaks with a Force Push. They then go back to crossing blades (again no Force attacks) and Galen lands the strike to Vader's throat.

Basically Vader utilised Force attacks just as much as Galen did. He only really used the Force to gain the upper hand once (the lightening attack). Even before that he was matching Vader blow for blow with lightsabres only.

So if it had been lightsabres only from the get go it probably wouldn't have been much different.

chilled monkey
Sorry, accidental double post.

truejedi
see, there are a LOT of force actions mixed in there to say they had no affect on the fight.

The fact that Marek hit him with lightning BEFORE the final confrontation absolutely MUST be taken into account.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by truejedi
see, there are a LOT of force actions mixed in there to say they had no affect on the fight.

Who said they had no affect?

I'm simply pointing out that Vader used Force attacks too and benefitted from them just as much.

If you want to downplay Galen's sword skills because he uses Force actions then you have to do the same to Vader.

Originally posted by truejedi
The fact that Marek hit him with lightning BEFORE the final confrontation absolutely MUST be taken into account.

As MUST the fact that Vader used a Force Choke and telekinetically thrown objects, and was the first to do so.

And the fact that Galen was matching him in sabre combat BEFORE hitting him with the lightening.

Again it comes back to;

Originally posted by truejedi
there is no evidence that Marek is capable of winning a fight without the force

And that is not the case. The fact that Galen doesn't depend entirely on his Force attacks and can match skilled opponents blade-to-blade without using them is evidence in itself.

As the quotes make clear he was beating Kota without Force attacks (as shown by the fact that Kota is taking hits). That's evidence right there.

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