Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Two of the most powerful demons EVER in marvel duke it out.
Fight takes place in a neutral realm.



FIGHT

Zom.

Zom

Zom, I believe Strange said Zom was stronger

Zom

SG vastly overrated

did shuma fight vishanti?

Zom. I really want to see more of Zom.

Originally posted by guy222
Zom

SG vastly overrated

How did you come to this conclusion?


Based on what was shown, Shuma-Gorath was a bigger threat to Doctor Strange, Ancient One, and the rest of the earth.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Zom, I believe Strange said Zom was stronger

No, he didn't. Zom confronted Doctor Strange before Shuma-Gorath was even written into the Marvel Universe and the entire point of the Shuma-Gorath story arc was for Strange to encounter a foe greater than the likes of which he had ever seen before.

People get this idea that Zom is so powerful because the Living Tribunal appeared to banish him because of the sense of evil on Earth, but he banished Zom with ease and Zom cowered in fear at the site of him. It is also known that Zom was previously defeated by Dormammu and Umar, who are weaker than Shuma-Gorath by a great deal. After Doctor Strange had proved himself to the Living Tribunal, LT had no need to return to Earth to deal with evil. Also, Shuma never had a real foothold on Earth again after Sise-Neg banished him.

Just based on feats and comic descriptions, Shuma-Gorath is greater than Zom.

Originally posted by CortSether
It is also known that Zom was previously defeated by Dormammu and Umar,
No, quite wrong. It was Eternity and Dormammu who defeated him, and Dormammu only put on his handcuffs.

Eternity big deal

all Eternity do onpanel is lose LOL
talk about "overate" Eternity is the most overated caracter ever



btw is this fight 2 death?

For me it's Zom. I've never seen the LT even blink an eye to Shuma's presence.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, quite wrong. It was Eternity and Dormammu who defeated him, and Dormammu only put on his handcuffs.

Zom recognized Umar as being involved in his previous defeat and tried to attack him. The fact that Dormammu was even able to put the Chains of Living Bondage on Zom proves how overrated he is. He has shown nothing to indicate that he is near as powerful as people make him out to be.


Not to mention Zom's character design is probably the worst in Marvel history.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
For me it's Zom. I've never seen the LT even blink an eye to Shuma's presence.

That's because Shuma-Gorath is a chaos lord and is part of the balance between chaos and order in the marvel universe. Zom was a creation and was therefore an unnatural part of the balance.


Based on feats and what has been shown of each character it is idiotic to assume Zom is more powerful than Shuma.

Shuma Gorath FTW. /fanboy

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
For me it's Zom. I've never seen the LT even blink an eye to Shuma's presence. so LT never interfer with SG? cos he was afraid of SG?

then again this Shuma outside his raelm so I dunno but he aint gettin killed anyway

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
so LT never interfer with SG? cos he was afraid of SG?

It's because Sise-Neg had already banished Shuma-Gorath beforehand.

Originally posted by CortSether
Zom recognized Umar as being involved in his previous defeat and tried to attack him. The fact that Dormammu was even able to put the Chains of Living Bondage on Zom proves how overrated he is. He has shown nothing to indicate that he is near as powerful as people make him out to be.


Not to mention Zom's character design is probably the worst in Marvel history.
Dormammu put Zom in bonds AFTER him AND Eternity put him down. Eternity who strange said was the strongest magical entity ever (and this was after he met Shuma). Zom even said that Eternity himself was not capable of stopping him.

Strange said that Zom was the most powerful foe he ever defeated, even after beating Shuma.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Strange said that Zom was the most powerful foe he ever defeated, even after beating Shuma.

How so? Zom was done with before Shuma even appeared in a comic book.

In WWH when he used the Zom fragment he said that Zom was the deadliest enemy he ever defeated

zom wins

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In WWH when he used the Zom fragment he said that Zom was the deadliest enemy he ever defeated
Funny since he didn't even defeat him. Though he did at least attempt to put up a fight.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In WWH when he used the Zom fragment he said that Zom was the deadliest enemy he ever defeated

Obviously bad writing because Stephen Strange's statement is contradicted immediately after by still being defeated by WWH after fusing with the power of Zom.

Yet Strange fused with the power of Shuma-Gorath was enough to destroy galaxies just by being in the vicinity...

It wasn't the full power of Zom that he absorbed...

Originally posted by King Kandy
It wasn't the full power of Zom that he absorbed...

I realize this, obviously. But if Zom was so powerful then a tiny fraction of that power should have easily overwhelmed WWH who isn't even close to God level.

Originally posted by CortSether
I realize this, obviously. But if Zom was so powerful then a tiny fraction of that power should have easily overwhelmed WWH who isn't even close to God level.
What a surprise: PIS in WWH.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What a surprise: PIS in WWH.

That and people take off-panel fights with no details of said battles way too seriously and make Zom more powerful than he really is.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What a surprise: PIS in WWH.

Originally posted by CortSether
I realize this, obviously. But if Zom was so powerful then a tiny fraction of that power should have easily overwhelmed WWH who isn't even close to God level.
lol. The last time we saw that fragment it was so weak it couldn't even get rid of Wong. By the time WWHulk came, I doubt it was even close enough to compare to the original.

Originally posted by CortSether
That and people take off-panel fights with no details of said battles way too seriously and make Zom more powerful than he really is.

Answer me this. Has the LT ever appeared because of Shuma without being summoned?

Zom has.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Answer me this. Has the LT ever appeared because of Shuma without being summoned?

Zom has.

Shuma is a chaos lord and is part of the balance between chaos and order and its presence isn't breaking any rules in that balance. LT would have no reason to try and stop Shuma. Zom was a creation and was unnatural and therefore upset that balance.

Besides, Sise-Neg had already banished Shuma-Gorath to another dimension previously. Also, after Doc Strange proved himself to LT it was pretty self-explanatory that LT would have no reason to show up again no matter what was going on.

Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma is a chaos lord and is part of the balance between chaos and order and its presence isn't breaking any rules in that balance. LT would have no reason to try and stop Shuma. Zom was a creation and was unnatural and therefore upset that balance.

Besides, Sise-Neg had already banished Shuma-Gorath to another dimension previously. Also, after Doc Strange proved himself to LT it was pretty self-explanatory that LT would have no reason to show up again no matter what was going on.

Shuma in no way plays a role in balancing order and chaos. If that were true, the LT would show up every time he got into our dimension. Zom was banished by the LT because he upset the balance.

Zom would shred Shuma like a piece of wet toilet paper.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Shuma in no way plays a role in balancing order and chaos. If that were true, the LT would show up every time he got into our dimension. Zom was banished by the LT because he upset the balance.

Zom would shred Shuma like a piece of wet toilet paper.

Sure Shuma does. That's why Shuma doesn't die but just reassembles in its dimension from seeming destruction. It's a part of the balance between chaos and order. Besides, Shuma wasn't trying to destroy our dimension he was just there to rule it and feed on people. Zom was trying to destroy it because that's what its creator intended him to do, just destroy things.

And no, Zom would not do jack to Shuma.

Zom and easily. Zom would screw up just about anything below Eternity level. I've said this before that Zom could screw up Galactus if big G doesn't go for the topknot and get LT or Eternity's help. That's right I said it, again.

P.S. I also think big G could contain Zom in another dimension since he's shown the abilty to travel and access other dimensions. Not trying to derail : ), really.

Originally posted by Kasper Gutman
Zom and easily. Zom would screw up just about anything below Eternity level. I've said this before that Zom could screw up Galactus if big G doesn't go for the topknot and get LT or Eternity's help. That's right I said it, again.

P.S. I also think big G could contain Zom in another dimension since he's shown the abilty to travel and access other dimensions. Not trying to derail : ), really.

I wonder how you think that especially since Zom had a hell of a time trying to even kill the Ancient One. And Dormammu was able to put him in chains, so...

Originally posted by CortSether
Sure Shuma does. That's why Shuma doesn't die but just reassembles in its dimension from seeming destruction. It's a part of the balance between chaos and order. Besides, Shuma wasn't trying to destroy our dimension he was just there to rule it and feed on people. Zom was trying to destroy it because that's what its creator intended him to do, just destroy things.

And no, Zom would not do jack to Shuma.

So because he can reform in his own dimension, he plays a vital role? Nice logic.

Yes, Zom is many tiers above Shuma.

What about the Archenemy? is he/it more powerful than Zom or Shuma?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
So because he can reform in his own dimension, he plays a vital role? Nice logic.

Yes, Zom is many tiers above Shuma.

All of the chaos lords play a vital role. They oppose the order in the universe. It's like it's their job.

Zom has shown nothing to suggest him being as high a tier as you claim.

Yeah, being stronger than Eternity isn't a top-tier indicator at all.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, being stronger than Eternity isn't a top-tier indicator at all.
All it indicates is that you have a shot of taking Captain America in a fight.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, being stronger than Eternity isn't a top-tier indicator at all.

Except he isn't stronger than Eternity. Eternity stuck Zom in a vase and trapped him there.

Eternity and Dormammu had to team up against him. Zom isn't known as one of the lords of Chaos or anything because he was an intruder to the universe. LT himself was worried about the evil energy he was spreading to the universe.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Eternity and Dormammu had to team up against him. Zom isn't known as one of the lords of Chaos or anything because he was an intruder to the universe. LT himself was worried about the evil energy he was spreading to the universe.

Yea, he was an intruder, an unnatural creation that wasn't part of chaos or order so he had to be eliminated. There others much stronger than Zom, they just didn't break the cosmic balance so nobody cared.

And I wouldn't say that they had to team up. Again, there's practically no detail of said battle. It just as well could have been Dormammu being too weak to take care of him so someone like Eternity stepped in to take care of it.

Originally posted by CortSether
Zom has shown nothing to suggest him being as high a tier as you claim.

Besides having the two highest standing cosmic entities worried about you, you're absolutely right.

btw, what has Shuma done that makes you think that he should be mentioned in the same sentence as Zom?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Besides having the two highest standing cosmic entities worried about you, you're absolutely right.

btw, what has Shuma done that makes you think that he should be mentioned in the same sentence as Zom?

It's LT's job to erase any disorder in the cosmic balance. To say he was worried is way stretching it as he practically blinked Zom out of existence.

And okay I have my reasons.

1) Be powerful enough that Sise-Neg after absorbing a ton of magical power already did not want to attempt to destroy it because he wasn't even sure if he could.

2) Withstood an assault from the combined Vishanti while outside of its realm.

3) Already proven and stated to dwarf the powers of Mephisto and Satannish when in a lesser realm of his. (Yes I realize Zom is more powerful than these guys as well).

4) Strange acknowledges that Dormammu wouldn't admit inferiority to anyone else when Shuma taunts Strange with Dormammu's image. In saying Dormammu wouldn't admit it, it's effectively communicating Shuma's superiority.

5) As far as we know Shuma cannot be destroyed.

6) Strange had to merge with another chaos lord, had artifacts from Cyttorak and the rest of the Vishanti, and a **** ton of prep time to deal with his encounter, and only then it was Shuma's own energy chucked at it that "destroyed it".

Also, Steve Englehart wrote some of the more epic tales of Marvel what with Sise-Neg's journey. At that time he was writing some wacky out of this world material. Half of the issues he has Shuma mentioned it's building suspense for a creature more terrible than the likes of anything Strange had seen. Why build all that suspense and come out with a creature that is much weaker than one Strange had encountered previously? The whole purpose of the arc was for Shuma to be something on a level Strange had never dealt with.

Originally posted by CortSether
Except he isn't stronger than Eternity. Eternity stuck Zom in a vase and trapped him there.
He needed Dormammu's help to do so. It was a team effort. In the comic itself it's flat-out stated that Eternity himself couldn't stop Zom.

Zom needs to hire some pr guys. He's getting dissed.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
All it indicates is that you have a shot of taking Captain America in a fight.
At least Strange tried to fight Shuma, during the arc where Eternity was possessed by Nightmare Strange knew from the start Eternity was so far beyond him he couldn't even dream of confronting him.

so Zom more powerfull then HOM Wanda & Siseneg?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
so Zom more powerfull then HOM Wanda & Siseneg?

Not even close.

Sise and HOM have actually done things demonstrating their power and don't get trapped in objects of decoration.

Originally posted by CortSether
Not even close.

Sise and HOM have actually done things demonstrating their power and don't get trapped in objects of decoration.

Who did he get trapped by?

Put the Shuma fan boy persona away. Shuma hasn't done anything that deserves the wanking you give him.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Who did he get trapped by?

Put the Shuma fan boy persona away. Shuma hasn't done anything that deserves the wanking you give him.


Shuma has proven itself far more than Zom has. I'm amazed at the credibility you give him based on a few haphazard and obscure details about his being defeated. Zom has done nothing but gets its ass kicked.

Oh, and a fraction of its power wasn't enough to harm WWH, what does that tell you?

Wasn't the problem with the Zom/Strange combo that Strange held Zom back?

Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma has proven itself far more than Zom has. I'm amazed at the credibility you give him based on a few haphazard and obscure details about his being defeated. Zom has done nothing but gets its ass kicked.

Oh, and a fraction of its power wasn't enough to harm WWH, what does that tell you?

Again, what has Shuma done besides get beaten by Dr. Strange?

Needing the combined efforts of Eternity, and Dormammu just to imprison you speaks volumes.

Originally posted by Harbinger
Wasn't the problem with the Zom/Strange combo that Strange held Zom back?

Yeah, after he saw the damage he was causing he basically just stopped fighting.

Originally posted by CortSether
Not even close.

Sise and HOM have actually done things demonstrating their power and don't get trapped in objects of decoration. tsk...this wasnt ment 4 u



and from what been said on this topic Zom SHOUD be > Siseneg & HOM wanda ^_^

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
tsk...this wasnt ment 4 u



and from what been said on this topic Zom SHOUD be > Siseneg & HOM wanda ^_^

After all this time, how could you STILL not know what you're talking about?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
tsk...this wasnt ment 4 u



and from what been said on this topic Zom SHOUD be > Siseneg & HOM wanda ^_^

Sise-Neg recreated the entirety of Marvel. He's much more powerful than Zom or Eternity for that matter.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
After all this time, how could you STILL not know what you're talking about?
Not to mention the fact that his "spelling" makes me want to punch a wall until my fist is worn down to a bloody nub.

What has Zom exactly done? As far as I know, the only impressive thing about him was being beat by Eternity and Dormammu. We don't even know why or how.

Originally posted by galactusischere
What has Zom exactly done? As far as I know, the only impressive thing about him was being beat by Eternity and Dormammu. We don't even know why or how.
Dormammu was terrified of him, as was Umar. Zom is one of the few cases of the LT intervening without being summoned. One of the other cases was the HOTU. I'm not saying Zom is=HOTU or even =IG but he's definitely up there as far as threat is concerned to the point that Eternity on his own isn't enough.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Dormammu was terrified of him, as was Umar. Zom is one of the few cases of the LT intervening without being summoned. One of the other cases was the HOTU. I'm not saying Zom is=HOTU or even =IG but he's definitely up there as far as threat is concerned to the point that Eternity on his own isn't enough.

agreed and thus a bigger threat than Shuma

Originally posted by CortSether
Sise-Neg recreated the entirety of Marvel. He's much more powerful than Zom or Eternity for that matter. nono
thats what i ment =>

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Answer me this. Has the LT ever appeared because of Shuma without being summoned? Originally posted by Omega Vision
Zom is one of the few cases of the LT intervening without being summoned.

hey guess what: LT dint intervene for Siseneg or Scarlet either so that means their < Zom?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Dormammu was terrified of him, as was Umar. Zom is one of the few cases of the LT intervening without being summoned. One of the other cases was the HOTU. I'm not saying Zom is=HOTU or even =IG but he's definitely up there as far as threat is concerned to the point that Eternity on his own isn't enough.

We don't even know how Eternity defeated him or why he intervened.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
agreed and thus a bigger threat than Shuma

Dormammu wouldn't be able to put down Shuma-Gorath if he tried, either. Eternity intervened because Dormammu couldn't do it and then he trapped Zom in a vase, lickity split.

If Zom was anywhere as powerful as some people make him then even a fraction of his power should have defeated WWH when Strange summoned it, but no, Strange still got his ass kicked.

The Living Tribunal only showed up because Zom was a creation of evil. He went against the balance of chaos and order, since he wasn't a chaos lord, which is why LT showed up, because its his job to dispel any unbalance. It wasn't because Zom was so super powerful. LT rid Zom away with the flick of the hand.

A fraction of another god's power would allow Juggernaut to stand toe to toe with WWH indefinately...

Originally posted by CortSether
Dormammu wouldn't be able to put down Shuma-Gorath if he tried, either. Eternity intervened because Dormammu couldn't do it and then he trapped Zom in a vase, lickity split.

If Zom was anywhere as powerful as some people make him then even a fraction of his power should have defeated WWH when Strange summoned it, but no, Strange still got his ass kicked.

The Living Tribunal only showed up because Zom was a creation of evil. He went against the balance of chaos and order, since he wasn't a chaos lord, which is why LT showed up, because its his job to dispel any unbalance. It wasn't because Zom was so super powerful. LT rid Zom away with the flick of the hand.
Wrong. It was stated on panel that Eternity himself could not stop Zom. It took Dormammu and Eternity's combined efforts to defeat Zom.

All that tells us, is that it was a small small fraction. After all, LT didn't exactly leave a whole lot behind.

Actually the reason why LT appeared was because strange severed Zom's forelock, which spread his evil energy across the earth, and LT was forced to appear to stop it from spreading to the rest of existence. Before that, LT was happy to let Zom kick Strange's ass all over the place.

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
nono
thats what i ment =>



hey guess what: LT dint intervene for Siseneg or Scarlet either so that means their < Zom?

I christen you the Captain of ABC logic.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wrong. It was stated on panel that Eternity himself could not stop Zom. It took Dormammu and Eternity's combined efforts to defeat Zom.

All that tells us, is that it was a small small fraction. After all, LT didn't exactly leave a whole lot behind.

Actually the reason why LT appeared was because strange severed Zom's forelock, which spread his evil energy across the earth, and LT was forced to appear to stop it from spreading to the rest of existence. Before that, LT was happy to let Zom kick Strange's ass all over the place.

Where is the logic in someone like Dormammu being able to make the slightest difference in helping someone infinitely more powerful than him? Combined efforts could mean anything, as in Eternity kicked Zom's ass but Dormammu helped out securing Zom by placing him in Chains of Living Bondage.

The forelock prevented Zom from being detected by other entities so Living Tribunal had no idea of Zom's existence beforehand. He wasn't happy to let Zom do anything at any point because he didn't know Zom existed.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I christen you the Captain of ABC logic. its your logic so thx...admiral!

Originally posted by CortSether
Where is the logic in someone like Dormammu being able to make the slightest difference in helping someone infinitely more powerful than him? Combined efforts could mean anything, as in Eternity kicked Zom's ass but Dormammu helped out securing Zom by placing him in Chains of Living Bondage.

The forelock prevented Zom from being detected by other entities so Living Tribunal had no idea of Zom's existence beforehand. He wasn't happy to let Zom do anything at any point because he didn't know Zom existed.
At the time you should know well (being a Strange fan apparently) that Dormammu was being depicted as on a similar level to Eternity and was able to take him on one on one.

Nowhere is that stated or even implied. What WAS stated by LT was "In severing Zom's forelock, you committed the second-- the unpardonable sin! For, in so doing, you set free the forces of mystic anarchy -- which now threaten to engulf us all!" It was the forelock being severed that called for LT's intervention to stop the spread of "mystic anarchy"; NOT Zom himself.

I have the same view of the story as King Kandy

Originally posted by King Kandy
At the time you should know well (being a Strange fan apparently) that Dormammu was being depicted as on a similar level to Eternity and was able to take him on one on one.

Nowhere is that stated or even implied. What WAS stated by LT was "In severing Zom's forelock, you committed the second-- the unpardonable sin! For, in so doing, you set free the forces of mystic anarchy -- which now threaten to engulf us all!" It was the forelock being severed that called for LT's intervention to stop the spread of "mystic anarchy"; NOT Zom himself.

Well, by the same token Shuma-Gorath was depicted as being far more powerful than Dormammu, who around that period in the late 60s and 1970s was written as being able to go toe to toe with Eternity. So by that logic Shuma-Gorath should be Eternity level because he was written as being a much greater threat than what Strange had faced before, including Dormammu.

Look, all we know about the Zom fight eons ago, was that Eternity and Dormammu had to team up. I don't know what that means except that neither one could do it alone. It could have been a 1001>1000 scenario, with Dormammu being the one that pushed it over.

We do know that Zom was at least equal to Eternity. We do know that Eternity is way stronger than Shuma Gorath. So really this seems like a no-brainer to me.

lol what r Eternitys onpanel feats?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
its your logic so thx...admiral!

With all the info given in this thread you've come to the conclusion that everyone thinks Zom>Sise-Neg, and HoM Wanda?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
lol what r Eternitys onpanel feats?
This is the kind of thing people would use as a sarcastic comment. In any case, while Shuma had to actually do battle with Strange, Eternity simply turned off his powers just by wishing it to be so.

Originally posted by King Kandy
This is the kind of thing people would use as a sarcastic comment. In any case, while Shuma had to actually do battle with Strange, Eternity simply turned off his powers just by wishing it to be so.

To be fair, classic Strange couldn't face Shuma in its dimension with his normal power set. He had to fuse with another chaos lord to do it as well as he had lots of prep time, and magical artifacts from the vishanti and cyttorak.

Yeah, but when Eternity went crazy, Strange didn't even bother prepping or trying to fight him since he knew it would all be useless. He actually had to ask Eternity to restore his powers so he'd be able to defend himself.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, but when Eternity went crazy, Strange didn't even bother prepping or trying to fight him since he knew it would all be useless. He actually had to ask Eternity to restore his powers so he'd be able to defend himself.

I'm not trying to say that Shuma is > Eternity.

I made the Shuma-Gorath respect thread and I still think Zom wins

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I made the Shuma-Gorath respect thread and I still think Zom wins

And that somehow qualifies you more than others because you made a thread?

I have all of Shuma's appearances in comic book form right in front of me - and its very clear that he and Frank Brunner wrote Shuma-Gorath to be greater than the likes of anything Strange had seen previously, including Zom.

Strange had seen LT previously. Is Shuma > LT now?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Strange had seen LT previously. Is Shuma > LT now?

Fail.

Living Tribunal wasn't a Doctor Strange antagonist.

You said greater than anything he had ever seen. And Strange did cast a spell on him but LT reversed it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You said greater than anything he had ever seen. And Strange did cast a spell on him but LT reversed it.

Greater than any serious threat before.

Point is, Shuma-Gorath is greater than Zom. Shuma is a multiversal entity whereas Zom isn't.

Since when is Shuma multiversal? He controlled multiple dimensions but those are different from universes.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Since when is Shuma multiversal? He controlled multiple dimensions but those are different from universes.
Also last time I checked, the LT doesn't interfere in mere universal threats unless summoned by a high level cosmic.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Since when is Shuma multiversal? He controlled multiple dimensions but those are different from universes.

Shuma-Gorath is not only in Marvel, but also mentioned in Robert E. Howard's 'Kull' and also appears in Conan the Barbarian. These are separate from the Marvel actualities and as such Shuma-Gorath is multiversal.

Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma-Gorath is not only in Marvel, but also mentioned in Robert E. Howard's 'Kull' and also appears in Conan the Barbarian. These are separate from the Marvel actualities and as such Shuma-Gorath is multiversal.
That's terrible logic. I guess since Superman has appeared in Seinfeld he's also Multiversal.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
That's terrible logic. I guess since Superman has appeared in Seinfeld he's also Multiversal.

It's not terrible logic. Shuma existed before Marvel even used the character and then he was used in Conan. They are actual literary and canon depictions by legit companies that have used them for story lines. It's not the same thing as a crossover or a parody appearance.

Originally posted by CortSether
It's not terrible logic. Shuma existed before Marvel even used the character and then he was used in Conan. They are actual literary and canon depictions by legit companies that have used them for story lines. It's not the same thing as a crossover or a parody appearance.
My point stands: Marvel doesn't own the works of Robert E. Howard so you can't consider it canon. Cimmeria isn't a world in the Marvel multiverse.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
My point stands: Marvel doesn't own the works of Robert E. Howard so you can't consider it canon. Cimmeria isn't a world in the Marvel multiverse.

Of course I can, it's the same character with the same implied powers and abilities. It's the exact same case with Cthulhu nowadays.

Originally posted by CortSether
Of course I can, it's the same character with the same implied powers and abilities. It's the exact same case with Cthulhu nowadays.
You miss the point. If you colored the Sentry red and blue and called him Superman he still wouldn't be Superman. The same name and same powers doesn't make the same character since what's canon to Cimmeria isn't canon to Marvel and vice versa.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You miss the point. If you colored the Sentry red and blue and called him Superman he still wouldn't be Superman. The same name and same powers doesn't make the same character since what's canon to Cimmeria isn't canon to Marvel and vice versa.

Doesn't matter. It proves Shuma-Gorath is a multiversal entity since it effects worlds outside of Marvel's actuality - and Shuma is shown to have the power to invade separate actualities. No one company has the exclusive rights to Shuma-Gorath so anything printed about him by a company that decides to use the name/character goes. It's the same thing with what has happened to the Cthulhu character after the Lovecraft copyright expired and its powers have been expanded from one installation to the next.

Originally posted by CortSether
Doesn't matter. It proves Shuma-Gorath is a multiversal entity since it effects worlds outside of Marvel's actuality - and Shuma is shown to have the power to invade separate actualities. No one company has the exclusive rights to Shuma-Gorath so anything printed about him by a company that decides to use the name/character goes. It's the same thing with what has happened to the Cthulhu character after the Lovecraft copyright expired and its powers have been expanded from one installation to the next.
Let me ask you something: do you think the characters in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all canon to their original works? Just because something is public access doesn't mean everything is canon. Otherwise I could just write Cthuhlhu as a pink monkey and lo and behold that would be canon and Cthulhu would be a pink monkey.

Shuma-Goraths actions in Cimmeria have no bearing on Marvel and vice versa.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Let me ask you something: do you think the characters in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all canon to their original works? Just because something is public access doesn't mean everything is canon. Otherwise I could just write Cthuhlhu as a pink monkey and lo and behold that would be canon and Cthulhu would be a pink monkey.

Shuma-Goraths actions in Cimmeria have no bearing on Marvel and vice versa.

I haven't read any LoEG so I can't make any comparison with that.

Shuma-Gorath's actions have no bearing in Cimmeria because it's separate from the Marvel actuality because Shuma can cross universes. It's really simple.

And yes, if you wrote Cthulhu as a pink monkey and it was published then yes Cthulhu would have the power to turn into a pink monkey.

Originally posted by CortSether
I haven't read any LoEG so I can't make any comparison with that.

Shuma-Gorath's actions have no bearing in Cimmeria because it's separate from the Marvel actuality because Shuma can cross universes. It's really simple.

And yes, if you wrote Cthulhu as a pink monkey and it was published then yes Cthulhu would have the power to turn into a pink monkey.
He cannot travel beyond the Marvel Omniverse which doesn't include Cimmeria. Or do you think Shuma could also enter DC on his own power?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He cannot travel beyond the Marvel Omniverse which doesn't include Cimmeria. Or do you think Shuma could also enter DC on his own power?

Since Shuma has appeared in others besides Marvel then I do not see why he wouldn't be able to. Of course, I don't think DC has any interest in writing Shuma-Gorath into their works.

Originally posted by CortSether
Since Shuma has appeared in others besides Marvel then I do not see why he wouldn't be able to. Of course, I don't think DC has any interest in writing Shuma-Gorath into their works.
Canon doesn't work that way. Clark Kent has appeared in Thor comic books, does that mean Clark Kent is also multiversal? Understand that Shuma-Gorath was borrowed from Howard but he's as different from the original as DC Frankenstein is from Mary Shelley's original monster.

Also multiversal means being able to affect (under your own power) multiple universes, not visiting them. If that were the case then Superboy Prime would also be multiversal, as would any character that's ever visited another universe.

You're forgetting Conan was a Marvel character for a while, and he existed on 616 Marvel earth. So it's still one universe.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You're forgetting Conan was a Marvel character for a while, and he existed on 616 Marvel earth. So it's still one universe.

Conan in the 1990s was not part of the Marvel Universe, so no it isn't still one universe.

He was when the Shuma stories were written

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He was when the Shuma stories were written

What happens in Conan is entirely separate from the Marvel continuity and actuality.

Shuma himself appeared in the Conan comic and tied the continuities together

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Shuma himself appeared in the Conan comic and tied the continuities together

Shuma-Gorath doesn't tie the continuities together it just appears in separate ones. That would mean the short story Kull is part of the Marvel continuity since Shuma-Gorath is mentioned in it, by that logic.

The point is that Shuma is not multiversal just because he is mentioned in other stories

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The point is that Shuma is not multiversal just because he is mentioned in other stories

There's only one Shuma-Gorath.

Originally posted by CortSether

Shuma is a chaos lord and is part of the balance between chaos and order
Shuma has absolutely nothing to do with cosmic consonance.

And Shuma has absolutely nothing to do with Lord Chaos & Master Order.

Originally posted by CortSether

Shuma-Gorath is not only in Marvel, but also mentioned in Robert E. Howard's 'Kull' and also appears in Conan the Barbarian. These are separate from the Marvel actualities and as such Shuma-Gorath is multiversal.
Originally posted by CortSether

It's not terrible logic. Shuma existed before Marvel even used the character and then he was used in Conan. They are actual literary and canon depictions by legit companies that have used them for story lines. It's not the same thing as a crossover or a parody appearance.
Originally posted by CortSether

Doesn't matter. It proves Shuma-Gorath is a multiversal entity since it effects worlds outside of Marvel's actuality - and Shuma is shown to have the power to invade separate actualities. No one company has the exclusive rights to Shuma-Gorath so anything printed about him by a company that decides to use the name/character goes. It's the same thing with what has happened to the Cthulhu character after the Lovecraft copyright expired and its powers have been expanded from one installation to the next.
... This is really hilarious.

First, Shuma being "multiversal"

Second, and funnier still, based on those reasons.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Let me ask you something: do you think the characters in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all canon to their original works? Just because something is public access doesn't mean everything is canon. Otherwise I could just write Cthuhlhu as a pink monkey and lo and behold that would be canon and Cthulhu would be a pink monkey.

Shuma-Goraths actions in Cimmeria have no bearing on Marvel and vice versa.

Wasnt Selene from the Hellfire Club involved loosely in the Conan stories that Marvel put out? Seems like a lot of connections to assume they arent tied together.

If so, all that tells us is that obviously Selene is multiversal...

I was under the opinion the Conan stuff happend in regular Marvel continuity, just a long time ago. Arent the "ancient ones" mentioned in the marvel conan stories also mentioned in more modern marvel continuity?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Shuma has absolutely nothing to do with cosmic consonance.

And Shuma has absolutely nothing to do with Lord Chaos & Master Order.

...Shuma being a Chaos Lord would absolutely mean he's part of the cosmic balance. All of the chaos lords are.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If so, all that tells us is that obviously Selene is multiversal...

You're still here?

It's different with Shuma-Gorath and Selene. Part of Shuma's power set is that it invades separate actualities. Selene doesn't.

Originally posted by CortSether

...Shuma being a Chaos Lord would absolutely mean he's part of the cosmic balance.
All of the chaos lords are.
False.

I challenge you to provide any kind of proof to support this.
Originally posted by CortSether

It's different with Shuma-Gorath and Selene. Part of Shuma's power set is that it invades separate actualities. Selene doesn't.
Don't know and don't care about Selene.

But your Shuma claim is again false.

I challenge you to provide proof that suggests that Shuma's power-set
is to invade other actualities. (as in other companies outside of Marvel comics)

The Shuma of Marvel comics, is restricted to Marvel's omniverse,
and has absolutely nothing to do with any other company,
and as well, has nothing to do with Lord Chaos & Master Order.

Shuma can affect other dimensions,
and even gets power from other dimensions,
but these dimensions belong to the Marvel Universe.

You should really stop making fallacious claims friend.

Well it was stated that he was a Lord of Chaos, but everything he's saying is BS

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well it was stated that he was a Lord of Chaos, but everything he's saying is BS

You shouldn't type anything. You'll pull a muscle.

I thought conan, selene and kulan gath were all characters in 616 marvel earth in the hyborian age. Their shuma gorath is the same one as 616.

Originally posted by 753
I thought conan, selene and kulan gath were all characters in 616 marvel earth in the hyborian age. Their shuma gorath is the same one as 616.

In any case, Shuma-Gorath wins if its at home dimension power.