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Inspired by the Shaman vs. X-Man topic.

Lets use an equal footing of comparison, using two characters of similar rank. Shaman - X-Man is one example.

Which power set would you say is more haxed, or broken, and why?

Magic is Win!
But Hank Pym is currently working on translating magic into science. which would make him WIN

Personally I think Psionic is more broken. It is both scientific, and mystical at the same time. I classify it as Paranormal Phenomena. Which leads to my second observation. Psionic in it of itself has no define limits.

Psionics are mans ability to either attack a mans mind with raw psychic force or the more accessible astral manipulation.

Magic is primal spells created by Ancient entities since the dawn of time. To harness these spells means favor by those entities. This includes Shamanistic magic which needs favor from things like nature and animal deities.

The connection of the two is Astral Projection.

Magic Wins .......classic Strange is proof of that.

Both abilities are all over the place, in terms of how they are portrayed from comic to comic. That said, it's nigh-impossible to say which one is more powerful/reliable, overall.

However, it should be mentioned that not all magic users need to recite specific charms or incantations for their magic to be operable. Many of them simply need to think on something for it to happen (much how higher-level psi characters operate.)

I've always considered Science, Psionics and Magic to all be connected universally in a theosophical kind of way.
Xavier could astral travel and fight.
Strange could astral travel and fight.
And soon Hank Pym will too after his little conversation with Eternity.

I would like to place my claim to the test. peaches

So I created another topic.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=524970

At their base, psionics are better. Its not until you get into the upper tiers that magic really pulls ahead as far as diversity and such.

Well most magical users have their own psionic abilities so it all really depends.

Originally posted by redhotrash
At their base, psionics are better. Its not until you get into the upper tiers that magic really pulls ahead as far as diversity and such.

You see here is the problem, with a statement like that.

Once you start moving up the latter past the Herald Class, it becomes a pointless argument. You then reach a ground where Magical being can manipulate reality like Malebolgia or King Spawn. Or Psi that can manipulate energy at a quantum level, and in turn rewrite the laws of the universe (reality warp) like Akira or Tetsuo.

The roof is higher for magic than it is for TK. Magics takes power from a greater outside source, while TK takes power from the individual using it.

Originally posted by redhotrash
The roof is higher for magic than it is for TK. Magics takes power from a greater outside source, while TK takes power from the individual using it.

No not really.

Look at characters like Tetsou who can produce energies to create minture big bangs, or Onslaught that can channels and fuels his psi powers from the collective conscious through the astral plane.

Think about it you have characters that can produce their own energy, manipulate ambient energy, or channel psi energy from a limitless source.

Off the top of my head, there seems to be far more uber magical threats than psionic ones. I mean, on the Psionic side you've got Dark Phoenix and Onslaught. Anyone else spring to mind as decidedly overpowered?

On the magical side you've got things like HoM Wanda, Zom, Classic Strange, Odin could qualify, etc.

Magic seems more broken. Mystical energy > mental energy.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Off the top of my head, there seems to be far more uber magical threats than psionic ones. I mean, on the Psionic side you've got Dark Phoenix and Onslaught. Anyone else spring to mind as decidedly overpowered?

On the magical side you've got things like HoM Wanda, Zom, Classic Strange, Odin could qualify, etc.

Magic seems more broken. Mystical energy > mental energy.

Because there are more powerful characters, in the upper tier you attribute Magic>Psi?

I agree that there are more powerful magic base characters in the upper tier. But that does not reference the potency of magic over psi.

Marquis of Death, Franklin Richards, The Void (Wildstorm). Most would not know this but their reality warping is attributed by psi.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Off the top of my head, there seems to be far more uber magical threats than psionic ones. I mean, on the Psionic side you've got Dark Phoenix and Onslaught. Anyone else spring to mind as decidedly overpowered?

On the magical side you've got things like HoM Wanda, Zom, Classic Strange, Odin could qualify, etc.

Magic seems more broken. Mystical energy > mental energy.

I think hyperstorm is psionic. A lot of people have less obvious psionic powers other than TK and TP, many reality warpers included

Above herald level, if we take marvel as an exemple, who would the strongest psionic entity be? Phoenyx? maybe eternity? the strongest magical things would be chaos and order. I think E>C&O>P (unless it's the moment of the universe's death/rebirthg then P would be strongest of all). Of course since eternity is more than just psionics it might not be fair to use him.

The Watchers abilites have been attributed as psionic nature as well.

Its like I mentioned earlier, if we go by the amount of characters I agree that magic wins in that department. But it does not necessarily address the topic.

Originally posted by "Id"
The Watchers abilites have been attributed as psionic nature as well.
That's just ghey.

...Wasn't it their cosmic awareness that was attributed to enhanced mental abilities? Or was it their CA and their power in general? I'm getting that from the numerous 'Guide to the Marvel Universe' they used to put inside of various Thor and SS annuals towards the back.

magic's only competition here overall is phoenix (being the source(?) of psionic energy.

classic strange, nuff' said, dude was the infinity gauntlet back in the day.

nate fought tundra and did alright, but the real tundra entity would whoop that ass.

I remember reading how the dimensional barriers had weaken enough for the Tundra and co to crossover.

The argument of Psionic based wonders like Onslaught and Franklin being potentially more powerful than deities could be because they have free will and choices in how they use their intent.
Gods will always be who they are and make choices based on who they are. Dormammu and Loki can never decide one day to be good guys. Or they will lose their power.
Franklins raw power + the ability to make choices in any direction he wishes can destroy or create a galaxy.
Whereas deities must in the end adhere to rules which limit them.

Psionic energy is raw energy.
Magic is just psionic energy configured and amplified by either universal status or worship.
I hope Hank Pym finds this link.

Originally posted by the ninjak

Psionic energy is raw energy.
Magic is just psionic energy configured and amplified by either universal status or worship.
I hope Hank Pym finds this link.

Where is this from? Magic flows from the interactions between chas and order. Psionics emerge from the thoughts of minded beings.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's just ghey.

...Wasn't it their cosmic awareness that was attributed to enhanced mental abilities? Or was it their CA and their power in general? I'm getting that from the numerous 'Guide to the Marvel Universe' they used to put inside of various Thor and SS annuals towards the back. They have cosmic awareness. But their cosmic abilities are attributed to psionic.

Originally posted by "Id"
I remember reading how the dimensional barriers had weaken enough for the Tundra and co to crossover.

They can't cross over, with the barrier being weakened they send avatars, but not themselves. The real versions have not been on Earth in thousands of years.

Why would they send avatars, when the barrier where opened long enough for themselves to crossover?

Originally posted by "Id"
Why would they send avatars, when the barrier where opened long enough for themselves to crossover?

Because as noted for them to actually crossover is impossible thanks to the Gods of the Artic spell so they use avatars as away to spread their influence. Sasquatch is the avatar of Tanaraq and that body was destroyed, but the real Tanaraq as showed in Omega Flight is still in the Realm of the Beasts. Even when the Wrecking Crew opened up the dimension, all Tanaraq could do is possesses Walter, but he himself couldn't cross over.

I think magic is more broken. I really can't explain it because the first thoughts I think to present all lead to me saying "they're still borderline the same thing."

to 753 though, is that definition of magic thorough? The statement about interactions between chaos and order, does that apply to all mysticism just in comics or is that in all of fiction?

Originally posted by Jynocidus
I think magic is more broken. I really can't explain it because the first thoughts I think to present all lead to me saying "they're still borderline the same thing."

to 753 though, is that definition of magic thorough? The statement about interactions between chaos and order, does that apply to all mysticism just in comics or is that in all of fiction?

I was refering to marvel because most of the characters being debated were marvel and the discussion was following Pym's atempts at translating magic into terms of natural science. Lord Chaos and Master Order are the conceptual abstracts characters that represent or, more precisely, are chaos and order in the MU. All magic flows from them and their struggle; I have seen some similar statements in DCU regarding the origin of magic but not as definitive. Other works of fiction, of course, have their own mithologies to explain magic. If we take world of darkness for instance, magic is the power to weave the fabric of reality into new shapes through will, a concept closer to the idea of reality warping in the MU.

If we're talkinbg about all works of fiction across all genres, I think the source material would be too broad and varied to ever reach a conclusion about what is stronger. The definitions of what is magic and what are 'psionic' powers differ and might overlap from one work to another and I'm sure both would have universe destroying/ creating feats to them.

When Warlock fought Vulcan.
Vulcan just laughed as he absorbed the spells targeting him saying.
"What is this MAGIC .......that is just energy too!"

Yes it is a form of energy, but not of the same kind as psionic. The power cosmic is another type of unrelated energy in marvel and there are others as well. Vulcan's powers are simply not limited to any single kind of energy, but vulcan can't cast magic and his powers are not magical in nature, he can only redirect energy arround.
Psionic energy is the product of the thoughts of minded beings, it is not some primordial energy from where the others come from.

Nice job Id

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