KMC Olympics: Archery

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ScreamPaste
The Archery bracket is posted below. Only the top five may compete.


The rules:
-This is a contest of pure skill in the field of archery. All characters are restricted to the same non-magical equipment. (Designed, mind you, to allow for the character's full physical strength, but still accessible to characters without super-human strength.)
-The targets are placed a full mile down range, and painted with the classical red on white consecutive circles and bullseye.
-No powers, no other equipment, no jumping, or unorthodox firing.
-This is not a poll.

Who takes gold?

ScreamPaste
V2_H9KZWZeA
Video for Shinon. (The red haired archer who shoosts the rope with relative ease.) In the English version, I think I remember him saying something about "No hesitation".

MooCowofJustice
Shinon can't shoot for a mile. I'm gonna say Link, just because.

BloodRain
Kratos.... no, Ryu. `~`

NemeBro
No poll

Ms.Marvel
none of these people are amerikanski.

NemeBro
Turok is NATIVE American.

no expression

MadMel
sylvanas for gold imo

Phantom Miria
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9761/11784005.png
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/928/33386841.png
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9172/84757308.png

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9761/11784005.png
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/928/33386841.png
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9172/84757308.png

Now I may need a bit more than that my lady. Anything else she's done *wink wink*

Phantom Miria
She can aim and shoot in the time it takes to process the thought and her arrow will hit true. Something like that. Can not remember what the book said. It was when she shot at Arthas when they first met, if someone has the book.

Sin_Volvagia
This is the only part of the Olympics that I'm gonna root for Link. I don't even know who that WoW elf is for obvious reasons.

Link wins for actually participating in archery and down Bulbins in some cat town.

ScreamPaste
Sylvanas is the leader of the undead faction in WoW stick out tongue Crazy good shot, as shown in those screens that Miria posted.

She's an undead Elf who can shoot very accurately very quickly. Also, she's hot.

I'm all for Link though. (Everyone knew this.)

Twilight Princess:
-pegs an inch thick pole at ridiculous distance.
-wins a shoot out with piles of targets
-shoosts enemies from far enough away to be invisible
-shoosts many a rope

Wind Waker:
-Shoosts a Wind god inside his own personal cyclone which can throw you and your boat across the ocean if you come close, through the walls of wind.

-OoT:
-While on horseback, scores perfect on the gerudo archery track to win the huge quiver.

wammamram
i gotta say link on this one, he is a hell of an archer

MooCowofJustice
MM Link shoosts Aliens too.

Q'Anilia
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
She can aim and shoot in the time it takes to process the thought and her arrow will hit true. Something like that. Can not remember what the book said. It was when she shot at Arthas when they first met, if someone has the book.

"She drew and fired, drew and fired, almost quicker than thought" - RotLK

Judging by what I have heard, Sylvanas would take this. She bested the Scourge archers with no effort and all, and Scourge archers has hit running targets from nigh miles away. On record, Sylvanas is the greatest archer in Warcraft.

In the scans provided by Phantom Miria, Sylvanas is far away enough to be merely a dot in the distance, which indicate a distance of at least a mile. From this distance, Sylvanas could fire four arrows at virtually the same time and each one of them hit several slim, moving tentacles without fault. She was not even motivated, she just happened to come by and decided to help bring down the beast.

Beyond that, Sylvanas was able to take aim on Arthas while he rode Invincible and fire across the Undead forces and, had Arthas not destroyed the arrow, would have hit him right between the eyes. Right between the eyes is however a feat she has provided us in Warcraft: Ghostlands, where she took aim and brought down a gargoyle in a single shot, the arrow piercing its stone head right between the eyes.

After turned undead, Sylvanas became an even better archer and she hit Arthas on their next encounter. In their previous one, Arthas reacted to the arrow and split it in half with his blade. This time, he lacked the capability:

"It impaled his left shoulder, piercing through his armor as if it were as flimsy as parchment, adding a fresh type of agony. He was confused for an instant- Sylvanas was a master archer. She couldn't possibly miss a fatal shot at this distance" - RotLK

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sylvanas is the leader of the undead faction in WoW stick out tongue Crazy good shot, as shown in those screens that Miria posted.

She's an undead Elf who can shoot very accurately very quickly. Also, she's hot.

I'm all for Link though. (Everyone knew this.)

Twilight Princess:
-pegs an inch thick pole at ridiculous distance.
-wins a shoot out with piles of targets
-shoosts enemies from far enough away to be invisible
-shoosts many a rope

Wind Waker:
-Shoosts a Wind god inside his own personal cyclone which can throw you and your boat across the ocean if you come close, through the walls of wind.

-OoT:
-While on horseback, scores perfect on the gerudo archery track to win the huge quiver.

Most of those feat apply to a lot of archers, even in real life. Sylvanas is on an inhuman league, being able to hit the tentacles presented in the scans.

When it comes to hitting the Wind God, it seems to me like it was strength at shot that hit him and not skill. If the arrows pierced the wind that throw boats around, it is not so much skills as strength. Furthermore, an arrow take less volume than a boat or an elf, move faster and is designed to pierce air. With a good enough arrow and high enough strength, you can pierce all from walls of wind to walls of stone and hit the target behind.
In perspective, it is more likely by logic that an arrow can hit the Wind God than a boat or a person is able to physically reach it.


Seem to me like Link has perfect aim on targets standing still. Sylvanas so far has not shot anything standing still, so we have no way of knowing how good she is at that. Which, to me, makes the winner of this obvious. Even if the range between Link and the pole(s) is farther than Sylvanas and the tentacles, her feat count for more, since she hit with four arrows pretty much at the same time, and her targets were moving while roughly as thick as a common wooden pole.

Burning thought
Sylvanas

ScreamPaste
Actually, most of those feats are entirely impossible for a normal human. :P I'll agree striking through the cyclone was as much strength as skill, but no arrow fired by a man would ever have a chance, in either scenario.

No human would ever be able to shoot an inch thick pole from the distance Link did, either, or even see it. Which reminds me, if I recall correctly Cylone guy is amazed Link could even see him when Link shoots him, let alone hit him with a series of arrows. This shows that it would take skill to pull the shot off. (I should mention that the diety in question was at the very top of his personal cyclone, just beneath the clouds.)

The shooting many a rope thing was also understated, but it is true people can do this, just not with the range and precision that Link can.

He's shot many moving targets in his long career as a perpetual teenager stick out tongue

Both Sylvanas and Link are very impressive shots. It's hard to really eyeball the distance between Link and the pole, but the pole is very high up on the opposite end of a canyon which Link is at the bottom of, and near the end of. Lemme see if I can get some screens.

Keep in mind, even if Link's aim were only perfect against a still target, the ones at the end of the shooting range aren't exactly going to run away. stick out tongue

Screenshots:
The cyclone in question, with quote from an impressed diety.
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/whataneye.jpg
The pole Link shoosts. Note that the camera is closer to the pole than Link is, and he is not in the shot.
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/Uphere.jpg

Q'Anilia
That Link could see the Wind God had nothing to do with his archery. Perception contribute in archery skills, but it does not define. It is an external factor.

The distance between Sylvanas and the beast can easily be compared to the distance between Link and that pole, since Sylvanas was nothing but an barely distinguishable form in the distance, much like that person by the pole.

MadMel
just a question, as i never tried this
does something happen if you accidently hit the kid?

ScreamPaste
It's incredibly impressive to shoot something that most people lack the senses to even see stick out tongue The wind god hangs out just below the clouds inside a giant cyclone. I think it's a great shot.

Also, the full dialogue is "That's some arm you've got there, and what an eye!..." But the first part is in a textbox just before that one.

Agreed. The distance would be similar. I think, at the least, we've established the top two archers in this competition.

Shinon is also very good though. The real debate will be Shinon, Kratos, and Ryu.

You can't. I've tried, a million times, too. Hate that little bastard. Though, after the first time you shoot the pole from a canyon away, if you shoot it from closer, he tells you that you're a cheater. (You can shoot the pole anytime you want, and he sings your praises everytime.)

MadMel
yea i got that part..i didnt think itd be possible in a zelda game for a kid to get impaled by an arrow, but one could always hope stick out tongue

Q'Anilia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It's incredibly impressive to shoot something that most people lack the senses to even see stick out tongue The wind god hangs out just below the clouds inside a giant cyclone. I think it's a great shot.

Also, the full dialogue is "That's some arm you've got there, and what an eye!..." But the first part is in a textbox just before that one.

Sure, but that shot is still more perception and strength than actual archery skill. It shows Link can aim, shoot a powerful arrow and that he see well.

From that feat we know he is without a doubt stronger than Sylvanas. He not unlikely see better, although I suspect Sylvanas could see him as well and he can aim.

None really put him above her in skills though, but his lack of a feat in compare to her tentacle hit puts him below her. Her aim on record is more true than his, and she can draw and fire faster. The fact that she hit so precise when firing so fast, is another reason to why I find her above Link.

ScreamPaste
And also that he can match all of those thing with incredible hand eye coordination and spatial awareness. I'm not sure why that makes him less skilled, because this seems to be the dfefinition of skilled with a bow.

A normal human could for example have his strength amped to Link's levels, and his sight amped to even higher, and still never make the shot, because that's an inhuman level of hand-eye coordination and skill.


I have to ask, how strong is Sylvanas? She might be atleast borderline super-human to make a shot at that distance.



I could argue that shoosting the windgod is easily worth the tentacle feat. I could also argue that their aims on record are both just as true. I don't think Link's ever missed, and I don't think Sylvanas has ever missed, thus neither has the better record.

As for rate of fire, we don't know how fast Link can knock and pull arrows from his bow. In gameplay he can fire as fast as you can press the button. (Spamming C fast enough can run you out of arrows in seconds.) But we don't really have anything more than that for rate of fire. So we don't know. We do know that his aim is insanely good, though.

I have a problem. What happens if they both score perfectly in archery? no expression

MooCowofJustice
They shoot eachother until one dies.

Q'Anilia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And also that he can match all of those thing with incredible hand eye coordination and spatial awareness. I'm not sure why that makes him less skilled, because this seems to be the dfefinition of skilled with a bow.

A normal human could for example have his strength amped to Link's levels, and his sight amped to even higher, and still never make the shot, because that's an inhuman level of hand-eye coordination and skill.


I have to ask, how strong is Sylvanas? She might be atleast borderline super-human to make a shot at that distance.



I could argue that shoosting the windgod is easily worth the tentacle feat. I could also argue that their aims on record are both just as true. I don't think Link's ever missed, and I don't think Sylvanas has ever missed, thus neither has the better record.

As for rate of fire, we don't know how fast Link can knock and pull arrows from his bow. In gameplay he can fire as fast as you can press the button. (Spamming C fast enough can run you out of arrows in seconds.) But we don't really have anything more than that for rate of fire. So we don't know. We do know that his aim is insanely good, though.

I have a problem. What happens if they both score perfectly in archery? no expression

The problem is that most of this is still based a lot on Link's strength. Many archers could make the shot Link did on the Wind God, if they had his eye and strength. It is this fact that make me put Sylvanas above Link.

The feats by Link is all about good aim, good perception and strong shots, and the most prominent feats of his are at targets not moving. You say that Link's never missed and because Sylvanas never has, neither has the better record. I disagree. Link has provided no indication that he could repeat the shots by Sylvanas. Sure, Sylvanas could not repeat his shot against the Wind God either, but that is because she is not strong enough, not because she is not skilled enough.

You are assuming Link capable of things because we have no limit on his skills. That is a fallacy, using the lack of a limit to claim rivalry in skills compared to another with different feats.


I am too tired to think straight right now, but tomorrow I will explain to you why Sylvanas feat is a better bow mastery feat than Link's, if this post has not already done that.

Sylvanas physical strength, to answer your question, is unknown. We know her arrow pierced Arthas shoulder and plate armor like it was a piece of paper. She has also shot straight into the head of a gargoyle, which is of solid stone.

Sin_Volvagia
Kai can do all of Link's arrow feats and she's mentally ill.

ScreamPaste
Here's my fundamental disagreement. The skill it would take to make such an insane shot even with his eye and strength is very high. The hulk with legolas' eyes would never make that shot, for example. You need to have incredible hand eye co-ordination and archery skill to make a shot at any significant range, no matter how strong you are. The fact that the windgod was hanging out inside a giant cyclone just beneath the clouds, and would be totally imperceptible to human eyes only makes the feat that much better.

Edit: In the end it's a moot disagreement, because he's clearly capable of making amazing shots, regardless of the word used to describe that capability.

Also, Sin. Mental Illness does not affect one's skill or ability, nor does it make them less intelligent.

LLLLLink
There is another factor that is being ignored, and that is stamina.

I don't know if any of you have ever shot a bow before, but it takes considerable stamina to fire in rapid succession. I can feel the burn after only 5 or six rapid shots with a compound bow. So, strength/endurance is going to make a bit of difference in archery.
That's my opinion, at least.

ScreamPaste
I've shot a bow many times, used to have a four foot composite. Sort of a hobby. Yeah, your arms feel like noodles after a day on the range.

Every character here's shown the ability to be awesome though. Sylvanas has shown she can shoot in rapid succession, so it's logical that yes, she would have the stamina to do so stick out tongue

Phantom Miria
Originally posted by LLLLLink
There is another factor that is being ignored, and that is stamina.

I don't know if any of you have ever shot a bow before, but it takes considerable stamina to fire in rapid succession. I can feel the burn after only 5 or six rapid shots with a compound bow. So, strength/endurance is going to make a bit of difference in archery.
That's my opinion, at least.

Mind the sexual innuendo, but this lot are not men enough to tire Sylvanas.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Here's my fundamental disagreement. The skill it would take to make such an insane shot even with his eye and strength is very high. The hulk with legolas' eyes would never make that shot, for example. You need to have incredible hand eye co-ordination and archery skill to make a shot at any significant range, no matter how strong you are. The fact that the windgod was hanging out inside a giant cyclone just beneath the clouds, and would be totally imperceptible to human eyes only makes the feat that much better.

Edit: In the end it's a moot disagreement, because he's clearly capable of making amazing shots, regardless of the word used to describe that capability.

Also, Sin. Mental Illness does not affect one's skill or ability, nor does it make them less intelligent.

She did say archers, and Hulk is no archer. Archery is all about technique. Your physical attributes contribute, but I need to agree with Q'Anilia: Give a master archer Link's physical attributes and his feats can be repeated. He saw the wing guy, aimed and hit him. That is good aim and strength and by the look of it, something at least Shinon could repeat if he had that strength and eye-sight.

ScreamPaste
By this reasoning give a master archer, whatever that qualifies as, strength and sight, and he can replicate Sylvanas' feat as well. erm Shinon shooting a rope at a reasonable distance is impressive, but the sheer precision it takes to aim something at so small a target at so great a distance as Link did is beyond even him, imho.

Being strong, and seeing well, don't make his showings of skill less impressive. no expression You could give the best living human archer all the strength and eyesight of.. I dunno.. Let's say Sylvanas and Link combined, but working with only his own skill, he'd never be able to replicate either of their feats.



Which implies archery takes skill! Ahah! Trapped! Or something. But yeah, Link is a skilled archer, strength addss to it but without skill strength is useless. I stand by this:

"In the end it's a moot disagreement, because he's clearly capable of making amazing shots, regardless of the word used to describe that capability."

Q'Anilia
The significant point that differ between Sylvanas and Link, and the reason I define Sylvanas a better archer is the following-

When you fire an arrow, there is more to its path than simple aim and perception. You calculate, you premeditate, you breathe and you fire. While there is a lot of skill in Link's shots, there is little calculation. He took good aim, but the two most important hits that you lift out with him, are both against targets that does not move.

The thing here, is not that Link is not necessarily a less talented archer than Sylvanas, but that he has not shown being as talented. I do not argue the possibility that Link could repeat the shots Sylvanas has pulled of, but simply because he might be able to, does not make it so.
I am sure there is more to Link's archery than meets the eye, but before it does meet the eye, it can not be claimed that he is able to pull of a shot that is totally different from his previous feats.


Sylvanas hit against the tentacles require a vast degree higher premeditation and calculations, for the plain reason that they are as slim as the pole Link hit and at the same time virtually as far away and MOVING. Despite this difference, Sylvanas fired four arrows at virtually the same time and she hit them at different points with each arrow.

Something that, until further facts on Link's archery is provided, shows how Sylvanas mind is vastly more comprehensive to archery than Link's.

ScreamPaste
Those are only two of many, Link's shown being able to do all of these things. On one occasion, in OoT, he makes no fewer than 15 consecutive bullseyes from the back of a galloping horse, for example.

Has Sylvanas ever shot from horseback?

Also, a moving target is a near moot point at the speed one of Sylvanas' arrows would fly. stick out tongue

Still, Link can and has shot many moving targets, just generally not at the distance he displays in TP and WW. The thing is though, both of these characters arrows fly fast enough that with how accurately we know they can shoot, the distance doesn't really matter that much until a moving target can actually move between the time the arrow is fired and it arrives.

Moving targets Link has shot:
-Ganon, all the damn time, even immediately after a teleport.
-Majora, leaves after images, extremely acrobatic
-Volvagia, flying
-Ghoma, in the eye
-ect.

Just about the only things he can't shoot are Dark Link, who hax, and Zelda, for obvious reasons.

Regardless, a target downrange isn't moving. stick out tongue

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Mind the sexual innuendo, but this lot are not men enough to tire Sylvanas.

Now hold on a moment. Young Link was canonically able to fight at full power for 3 full days without rest (archery, swordsmanship, back-breaking labor, etc.).
We are talking about a child here (who, by the way, is just as good a shot as his adult form). So, perhaps it is the other way around.

Sin_Volvagia
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Now hold on a moment. Young Link was canonically able to fight at full power for 3 full days without rest (archery, swordsmanship, back-breaking labor, etc.).
We are talking about a child here (who, by the way, is just as good a shot as his adult form). So, perhaps it is the other way around.

Game mechanics FTL

Phantom Miria
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Now hold on a moment. Young Link was canonically able to fight at full power for 3 full days without rest (archery, swordsmanship, back-breaking labor, etc.).
We are talking about a child here (who, by the way, is just as good a shot as his adult form). So, perhaps it is the other way around.

Can he keep it up forever? I mean the things he did for three full days, can he keep them up for three full centuries? Eons?

You do not know what a Warcraft Undead is actually capable of, do you?

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
Can he keep it up forever? I mean the things he did for three full days, can he keep them up for three full centuries? Eons?
?

No, because Majora's Mask is the one game that gives you the option to sleep the days away in contrast to working. Also, there are quotes like, "...Even if you don't sleep, that only leaves you a measly 72 hours!" - Tatl
Also, there is the All-night Mask.

Phantom Miria
I have no idea what you just said

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
I have no idea what you just said

I guess this means that I am a nerd...

Phantom Miria
No, just that you failed at being consistent

MooCowofJustice
He said that Link can't keep it up for centuries or eons.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
No, just that you failed at being consistent

Women......have strange thought processes.....
Either that or there are drugs involved :l

Moo gets an "A" in Reading Comprehension.

Phantom Miria
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
He said that Link can't keep it up for centuries or eons.

So why not just say "No"? The rest was irrelevant and I was trying to understand its relevance, which was not there. That is why I did not find it consistent.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
So why not just say "No"? The rest was irrelevant and I was trying to understand its relevance, which was not there. That is why I did not find it consistent.

Must....resist....inner troll.... evil face

MadMel
is conspiracy to commit trolling a banning offense? wink

LLLLLink
Good Lord! I should hope not!

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
So why not just say "No"? The rest was irrelevant and I was trying to understand its relevance, which was not there. That is why I did not find it consistent.

He did say No. But he added more words after it that didn't serve any real purpose.

It's like if you asked me if I knew who Mr. Spalding was and I said "No. But I know a guy named Fred. Also, I know what the secret Mario backflip is. Also, you don't."

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Phantom Miria
So why not just say "No"? The rest was irrelevant and I was trying to understand its relevance, which was not there. That is why I did not find it consistent.

The "no" part was for you. The rest was for SV's 'gameplay mechanics' comment.
I failed to distinguish that, though, so I'm at fault here. Sorry for the mix up.

ScreamPaste
I've decided to give the gold to Sylvanas. I do not personally think her showings are more impressive than Link's, but they're hard to really compare. Both are excellent. My reasoning for Link taking silver is as follows.

-Both can acheive a perfect bulls-eye on command. A tie.
-Only one can take gold.
-... I included CIS. no expression Link's character is such that he'd step down in the event of a tie. He's the opposite of selfish. (And I'm not calling Sylvanas selfish, I'm sayin' Link would volunteer without bein' asked. He's a goon that way.)
-If I gave it to Link, people would think me biased. stick out tongue I'd rather not have the resentment. <---Biggest reason. If someone else was running this thread, I'd fight for the gold, but it's not.

So, while I maintain that Link is worthy of gold, so is Sylvanas. Both can hit the target flawlessly, and in the event of a tie, Link's CIS will kick in, and Sylvanas will take gold.

Lesson learned: Next time, make the targets farther away. 131

Who takes bronze?

MooCowofJustice
Not Shinon. I'll agree FE characters are above human level, but a mile is still a really far shot.

BloodRain
Ryu for bronze for having aim over Kratos. Gold and silver look pretty much set.

Q'Anilia
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I've decided to give the gold to Sylvanas. I do not personally think her showings are more impressive than Link's, but they're hard to really compare. Both are excellent. My reasoning for Link taking silver is as follows.

-Both can acheive a perfect bulls-eye on command. A tie.
-Only one can take gold.
-... I included CIS. no expression Link's character is such that he'd step down in the event of a tie. He's the opposite of selfish. (And I'm not calling Sylvanas selfish, I'm sayin' Link would volunteer without bein' asked. He's a goon that way.)
-If I gave it to Link, people would think me biased. stick out tongue I'd rather not have the resentment. <---Biggest reason. If someone else was running this thread, I'd fight for the gold, but it's not.

So, while I maintain that Link is worthy of gold, so is Sylvanas. Both can hit the target flawlessly, and in the event of a tie, Link's CIS will kick in, and Sylvanas will take gold.

Lesson learned: Next time, make the targets farther away. 131

Who takes bronze?

If both have the skill to hit the targets perfectly, it should come down to who can do it fastest. Because of the short range and the easy targets, that should be used to determine who is the better archer on that field.

Sylvanas. You can not deny her rate at aim and of fire is higher.

When it comes to archery outside this contest, the rest can be debated.

ScreamPaste
She got gold, leave me to my fanboy rationalisations! D:

Q'Anilia
Just giving a suggestion for future times when such a predicament take place. Additional details can be studied to settle a tie, such as in this example, the rate of fire and how rapidly they can take aim and hit smile

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