Who is Scientist Supreme in the DCU?

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Prep-Man
Please vote.

chomperx9
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Please vote. im not registered to vote

JakeTheBank
Well, iirc, Pym was chosen as Scientist Supreme because of his unique approach on science, not just pure intellect. I'm not sure who here would meet the same criteria as Pym being "the Mage", but the argument could be made for most.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, iirc, Pym was chosen as Scientist Supreme because of his unique approach on science, not just pure intellect. I'm not sure who here would meet the same criteria as Pym being "the Mage", but the argument could be made for most.

Who do you think it would be, then? I might say Will.

AsbestosFlaygon
I vote for Alexander Luthor, Jr.

The Nuul
Pym as in Giant Man? confused

Bentley
Pym is among the best scientists in Earth, his feats are proof for it.

The Nuul
But hes in DC? thats what I meant....

Bentley
He was just addressing how Pym got his Scientist Supreme stitch to transpose it into the DCU.

Blanket
batman

Desaad
That sort of fevered, almost unstable, need to create, to build, to achieve wonders - the criteria by which he was chosen for his role as scientist supreme - most accurately characterizes Will Magnus. They even both have history of mental instability.

Steel represents the Stark-like desire to enact social change through the power of innovation. He's about transforming the global community through his creations, more than he is about the love of creation itself.

Ray Palmer is a professor and an adventurer, and really values the understanding of a concept or principal more than he values the creation of a device or object. His technology, his innovations, tend to serve as tools for further information gathering, exploration, learning.

In terms of who has created the most impressive stuff? T.O. Morrow probably takes the cake, but Atom and Niles Caulder give him a run.

AsbestosFlaygon
Special mention for Lex Luthor.. The guy's a beast with raw materials.

Q99
I note that most DC scientists are more specialized. Atom's great but you'll almost never see him build a robot, for example, and likewise Will Magnus will rarely do something in particle physics. Mr. Terrific and Batman are generalists, but tend not to do as crazy stuff.


Hm, Professor Ivo should be on the list if we're including villains, though
X Supreme does seem to mostly be limited to heroic types.

I don't even know who Professor Haley is. Scoop?


T.O. Morrow is probably my bet of the list. Magnus does point out how awesome he is for making a robot soul, and he made a device to view 100 years into the future (though admittedly, this does mean he had a knowledge advantage in building his stuff after that) as well as a device to create space that he used on Black Adam during 52. The Red Tornado (Volcano, Torpedo, Inferno) series is quite impressive, and Tomorrow Woman is crazy-awesome (though a collaboration).

Endless Mike
How is Lex Luthor not on the list?

Desaad
Originally posted by Q99
I note that most DC scientists are more specialized. Atom's great but you'll almost never see him build a robot, for example, and likewise Will Magnus will rarely do something in particle physics. Mr. Terrific and Batman are generalists, but tend not to do as crazy stuff.

Less specialized than you might think. Besides building Time Machines, Ray Palmer's greatest feat is probably overcoming the Hourman virus, which was 853rd Cen technology. And Caulder has done everything from creating Nanomachines and robots to time machines.





He's the Professor of the Challengers of the Unknown. He's never really accomplished anything on the level of the others on the list. I believe his greatest feat was not being driven made from the information on how to traverse Hypertime, which was given to him by Metron.




Note that he first invented tesserect technology when he was 15, and altered an iPod to become a death ray. That said, Magnus makes it clear that he himself is the superior 'soul creator' when he's off his meds, and both seem to value that particular feat above all. In some ways, it makes sense, as building a synthetic soul is pretty insane.

I believe the implication with Tomorrow Woman was that Ivo created all her physical abilities, being that his specialty is creating super powerful robots, while T.O. Morrow created her brain.

Desaad
Originally posted by Endless Mike
How is Lex Luthor not on the list?

His Post Crisis history of genius has been spotty at best. Only recently is he getting anything approaching a push in that regard.

If you take into account all his Pre Crisis stuff, and htose Pre Crisis stories appear to be back in continuity, then he would be insane, but kind of stupidly insane -- building time machines out of tin cans and assorted garbage.

Either way, none of these guys would be the Scientist Supreme of the DCU, since that is a decidely heroic/protector role.

Endless Mike
Lex has done some pretty impressive stuff lately, he cured a paraplegic with some random ingredients in a few hours and then undid it.

Desaad
Which is why I said he's gotten a renewed push.

But prior to that, there wasn't a lot. Basically from Man of Steel until the Johns/Busiek era he became a business man, a Kingpin and a political manipulator. He had pockets of brilliance - Alan Moore's Swamp Thing had him design a device in under 60 seconds to destroy the Swamp Thing during his Plant-Elemental phase (when nothing else could) - but for the most part he hasn't been that impressive.

But, again, given that a lot of that Pre-Crisis stuff seems to be in continuity again, yeah, he's probably got the most outlandish stuff of the present day DC characters.

Nothing beats Brainiac 5, though.

Omega Vision
I think Metron should be on this list.

Desaad
He's a god. It's a bit like saying the Celestials should be on the list.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Desaad
He's a god. It's a bit like saying the Celestials should be on the list.
Meh. Most Current Metron I suppose, but Classic Metron was basically just a super-smart alien with a cool chair.

Desaad
Nah, the New Gods were always beyond "Aliens", at least in their own series'. Guy built the Worlogog.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
I vote for Alexander Luthor, Jr.

What has he done?

JakeTheBank
Recreate the DC Multiverse

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Desaad
That sort of fevered, almost unstable, need to create, to build, to achieve wonders - the criteria by which he was chosen for his role as scientist supreme - most accurately characterizes Will Magnus. They even both have history of mental instability.

Steel represents the Stark-like desire to enact social change through the power of innovation. He's about transforming the global community through his creations, more than he is about the love of creation itself.

Ray Palmer is a professor and an adventurer, and really values the understanding of a concept or principal more than he values the creation of a device or object. His technology, his innovations, tend to serve as tools for further information gathering, exploration, learning.

In terms of who has created the most impressive stuff? T.O. Morrow probably takes the cake, but Atom and Niles Caulder give him a run.

TO Morrow has created better stuff than Will? Like what?

Galan007
Rip.

Vril Dox should be on that list though.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Recreate the DC Multiverse

With tech he built?

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Galan007
Rip.

I know he has created the device that held Mr. Mind. Anything else?

Q99
Ray identified the virus, but they built a solar computer with 853rd century tech and aid from the Justice Legion Alpha to actually cure it.

Desaad
Originally posted by Q99
Ray identified the virus, but they built a solar computer with 853rd century tech and aid from the Justice Legion Alpha to actually cure it.

No, Ray cracked it. He had the cure before Solaris was built. It would have taken time to manufacture a cure, certainly more time than Solaris just sucking up it's programming, but it was written right there on the page.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/DC%20Genius/th_2CManofSteel100000020.jpg
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu71/Desaad86/DC%20Genius/th_2ddccomics1M3pg07.jpg

Desaad
Originally posted by Prep-Man
With tech he built?

Yeah, Infinite Crisis, using the Anti Monitor's corpse as I recall.

Desaad
Originally posted by Prep-Man
TO Morrow has created better stuff than Will? Like what?

Like his Time Machine/super computer "Everware". I consider that more wide-reaching than anything Magnus has built, though as I said when it comes to creating artificial souls, Magnus seems to have the edge. His Metal Men are certainly more human than, say, Red Tornado.

Batman-Prime
Ray, but why is Batman even on this list no expression?

Desaad
Because he's one of the smartest guys in the DCU, and despite not specializing in tech he's built teleporters and helped fix cyborgs and what not.

Omega Vision
Batman is a contender for smartest egg on DC Earth but he's not close to the greatest scientist. He's a bit like Sherlock Holmes, far too focused on criminology to pursue the other intellectual ventures beyond mere relative expertise. To paraphrase Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: "Science lost a great thinker when chose to focus on the study of crime"

Desaad
He's MORE of a polymath than that, but he suffers from the same issues that Mr. Terrific does. He's focused on literature, martial arts, criminology, chemistry, biology, spirtuality, etc as he is with engineering and physics.

The sheer number of appearances he has means he's shown himself to be at the top of each of those fields though -- he's not creating pocket universes or building time machines, but he's created teleporters and artificial intelligence/surveillance systems (Brother Eye).

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Recreate the DC Multiverse
thumb up

No other scientist could replicate the same feat. Even Hank Pym can't.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
thumb up

No other scientist could replicate the same feat. Even Hank Pym can't.

What about Reed? Didn't you say he messed with the Multiverse, too?

Prep-Man
DAMN! I forgot to put Anarky on the list!! He deserves to be on the list more than Batman or even Mr. Terrific. The dude is crazy smart.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Desaad
Like his Time Machine/super computer "Everware". I consider that more wide-reaching than anything Magnus has built, though as I said when it comes to creating artificial souls, Magnus seems to have the edge. His Metal Men are certainly more human than, say, Red Tornado.

Wasn't the Everware in the LAST Metal Men series? Exactly what could that do?

Martian_mind
You people all seem to be forgetting that Magnus smokes a pipe.

A PIPE PEOPLE!!!

Desaad
Everware is just the most recent name for the time machine that has always been T.O. Morrow's chief claim to fame. When it was a giant super computer like Doom's Prime Mover it was called MORROW. It's just a time machine that allows one to go anywhere and retrieve anything.

Reed has never created a multiverse from a single universe. He's created pocket dimensions/tesserects, but not a full blown multiverse, and he's never shown the ability to merge them together the way Alex Luthor was doing.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Desaad But prior to that, there wasn't a lot. Basically from Man of Steel until the Johns/Busiek era he became a business man, a Kingpin and a political manipulator. He had pockets of brilliance - Alan Moore's Swamp Thing had him design a device in under 60 seconds to destroy the Swamp Thing during his Plant-Elemental phase (when nothing else could)

It was actually 10 minutes, but still impressive. Also when Swamp Thing tried to get revenge on him he had defenses in his building that stopped his astral form.

Q99
If he wasn't from the future, Brainiac 5 really would be the shoe-in, he's by far the most like the Marvel scientists in being in a lot of fields.

Now here's a question: Which B5? smile I would personally go for the Threeboot. He has ways of cancelling out any of his teammate's powers, he brought Dream Girl back from the dead, and he's just generally impressive both on the fly or in the lab.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
DAMN! I forgot to put Anarky on the list!! He deserves to be on the list more than Batman or even Mr. Terrific. The dude is crazy smart.

Yea, though he lacks as much page time.

Creating a teleporter that can go to Apokolips? That's really impressive.




I think Magnus disagrees. Reddy's got more free will than they do I believe, the metal men are more confined to their roles.

Then there's Tomorrow Woman, which he made the brain of, who was both very human like and broke from her assigned role.

When they talk about machine souls, they don't seem to mean 'ability to mimic a human' so much as ability to make their own choices and decisions. Amazo can at times be humanlike to talk to, but he definitely lacks that aspect.

Deadline
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, iirc, Pym was chosen as Scientist Supreme because of his unique approach on science, not just pure intellect.

Bullocks, it should have been Reed.

Desaad
Originally posted by Q99
If he wasn't from the future, Brainiac 5 really would be the shoe-in, he's by far the most like the Marvel scientists in being in a lot of fields.

Now here's a question: Which B5? smile I would personally go for the Threeboot. He has ways of cancelling out any of his teammate's powers, he brought Dream Girl back from the dead, and he's just generally impressive both on the fly or in the lab.

Nah, classic/current would be the winner, if only for stuff like the Concentrator. Three Boot did't do much. His most impressive feat was probably rearranging the solar system with the powers of Starboy and Light Lass (or whatever they were calling her).









Nope. He's always very careful to call the Metal Men "men", rather than Robots, and when he went off his meds he made it clear that he could IMPROVE upon the 'artificial soul' code that T.O. Morrow wrote.



The metal men have real personalities, and no program to speak of to break. Magnus doesn't control them at all, and they regularly show free will. They are, by everyone's admission, the most impressive thinking machines around.

Caulder would disagree that Magnus is the best roboticist around, probably, but that's more because he's a bastard than an honest evaluation of their relative skill levels.



They mean creating, from scratch, real people rather than a thing that SEEMS like real people. They're talking about synethetic souls, and both Morrow and Magnus can create them, but Magnus creates them better.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Bullocks, it should have been Reed.

slott was only trying to give pym some credit after the hatchet job the last dozen writers have done on the guy.

Q99
Originally posted by Desaad
Nah, classic/current would be the winner, if only for stuff like the Concentrator. Three Boot did't do much. His most impressive feat was probably rearranging the solar system with the powers of Starboy and Light Lass (or whatever they were calling her).

Light Lass, yea. But I'll note he not only did that but did it on the fly smile

He very consistently came across as one of the most dangerous legionnaires in the threeboot.










Maybe the original code, but some of his later stuff? I think Morrow likewise can surpass his old works.

K Von Doom
What about the guy who created Amazo. Dr Ivo something?

Desaad
Originally posted by Q99
Light Lass, yea. But I'll note he not only did that but did it on the fly smile

He very consistently came across as one of the most dangerous legionnaires in the threeboot.

But without any real feats to compare to his other versions. The 'on the fly' thing was about as impressive as calculating trajectories too fast for a 30th century super computer to process, which is something he did fairly regularly both Post-Zero Hour and in the original incarnation.

And he still never had anything equivalent to the concentrator in any of his other incarnations.












No, this was a code that Morrow wrote for Magnus at the beginning of 52.

The whole idea was that Magnus, drugging himself to stop him from being bi-polar, had lost that creative spark, that 'certain something', that had allowed him to create the Metal Men in the first place. T.O. Morrow had no such problems, and to get Magnus jump started gave him the coding he'd need. Then, later, Morrow had Magnus' medication taken away, which resulted him becoming increasingly erratic but also increasingly creative, bringing him back up to his original levels.

It was then that we see Magnus say he can improve upon Morrow's code, ie that (in this respect, at least) he had leapfrogged Morrow thanks to his lack of medication.

Desaad
Originally posted by K Von Doom
What about the guy who created Amazo. Dr Ivo something?

It's an ongoing debate between these two as to which is more impressive - creating synthetic souls, beings of free will, or creating physically perfect simulations of humanity with immense power levels.

I don't think there's any doubt that Amazo is probably the single most powerful android ever built, but his thinking is notoriously limited. Ivo also created a formula that makes him immortal, though with obvious side effects.

Prep-Man
Didn't Ivo create "Kid Amazo"? His thinking wasn't limited at all.

Q99
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Didn't Ivo create "Kid Amazo"? His thinking wasn't limited at all.


Yea, but I think he was a cyborg with a human or at least partially human brain. He had a biological mother.

He did also go insane and break down too, so while impressive, I'm not sure if he can be called a success.

Desaad
He wasn't a robot, though. He was bio-mechanical.

Morrow and Magnus are literally creating souls from scratch, from 0's and 1s. Ivo just crossed biomechanical Amazo sperm with human ova to create Kid Amazo.

Q99
Ok, so Ivo: Amazo series, Tomorrow Woman's body (but not mind), immortality serum.

Morrow: Red Tornado series, Tomorrow Woman's mind, his future-looking device, the device he used to open space the size of a football field inside Black Adam's head.

Magnus: The Metal Men series. Including but not limited to bullet-sized metal men, Plutonium, and turning himself into an android once.

Did I miss anything big?


Granting Magnus the best at making aritifical souls, I'd still give it to TO Morrow for versatility.

-Pr-
Reddy's free will comes from the Tornado Champion, not the design of the android, iirc.

Desaad
Originally posted by Q99
Ok, so Ivo: Amazo series, Tomorrow Woman's body (but not mind), immortality serum.

Also the Amazoids, who actively stole rather than copied abilities.



Red Tornado series including the Red Volcano/Torpedo/Inferno. His 'future looking device' also had the ability to calculate what the outcome of certain tactics/changes would be, allowing him to alter reality to his whim. He created Genocide, the Wonder Woman villain who was supposed to be a god or whatever. He turned an iPod into a death ray, turned satellite tv into something to see the future (with, apparently, no real tools or access to any advanced technology). And he wrote that robotic soul code that Magnus later improved.



If you're referring to Veridium, that got retconned out as a psychological breakdown/hallucination (that mini also introduced the idea that Magnus had never created the Metal Men, just transferred the souls of his friends into the robotic bodies).

Anyway, he also created an improved upon body for Cliff Steele/Robot Man of the Doom Patrol, that allowed him to taste and feel even more acutely than a human being. He could increase the level of his senses at will, to the point that he could even 'see' through his sense of touch. It was so complex that it spontaneously gained sentience and, with it's burgeoning consciousness, tried to destroy the real Cliff Steele's brain.

He also created a device to control Chemo, a flying car that ran 'on the kinetic energy of thoughts', and a dimensional monitor and dimensional doorway that allowed him to look into and travel to other universes.





Agreed, although I think Caulder and the Atom might be on the same level as Morrow.

Desaad
Originally posted by -Pr-
Reddy's free will comes from the Tornado Champion, not the design of the android, iirc.

It's been changed constantly -- I don't think that his initial defection was attributed to the Wind Elemental.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Desaad
It's been changed constantly -- I don't think that his initial defection was attributed to the Wind Elemental.

initially, he had his memory wiped, yes, but the consciousness was always as detailed as it was because of the wind elemental, from what i recall.

i don't think morrow did that all himself.

Q99
Oh yea, I forgot about that.

Genocide was a combined effort between science and magic, so that was something of a team thing. Geno was made from Wonder Woman's body snatched from the future and infused with Ares's power.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
slott was only trying to give pym some credit after the hatchet job the last dozen writers have done on the guy.

Going a bit too far don't you think?

AsbestosFlaygon
Batman's in the lead so far, with 5 votes haermm

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Going a bit too far don't you think?

in what sense?

Warlord
Hunter

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
in what sense?

Science showings Reed > Pym? Its a bit like making Wolverien the top martial artist, sure he has some really impressive showings but Cap is much better.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Science showings Reed > Pym? Its a bit like making Wolverien the top martial artist, sure he has some really impressive showings but Cap is much better.

Pym has as much right to be up there as anyone. What, should Reed get ALL the accolades?

And i don't agree that Cap is a better MA, personally. Better fighter, maybe.

JakeTheBank
I agree with the explanation behind why Pym was chosen as Scientist Supreme, myself.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
Pym has as much right to be up there as anyone. What, should Reed get ALL the accolades?

And i don't agree that Cap is a better MA, personally. Better fighter, maybe.

This is a whole new topic and would derail the thread so im stopping it here.

the ninjak
Pyms been back what now a couple of months in comic book time?

And he has owned Reed in the battle of the minds + successfully infiltrated the building.
Built the Infinite Mansion.
Is in the process of translating Magic in Science.
Built Salvation Two.
He is an uber Doctor Who now!
He has that cool pen too!

Deadline
Originally posted by the ninjak
Pyms been back what now a couple of months in comic book time?

And he has owned Reed in the battle of the minds + successfully infiltrated the building.
Built the Infinite Mansion.
Is in the process of translating Magic in Science.
Built Salvation Two.
He is an uber Doctor Who now!
He has that cool pen too!

Well looks like they 'upgraded' him prior to that I dont see how hes in Reeds league.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Deadline
Well looks like they 'upgraded' him prior to that I dont see how hes in Reeds league.

He completely outsmarted him when Pym's Avengers raided the Baxter Building this happened before the upgrade!
He was gone for at least a year!
Replaced! by an imposter.
He is a different degree of smarts!
Reed is the Explorer twists science into creative ventures whereas Pym masters existing tech! So to say.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Deadline
Science showings Reed > Pym? Its a bit like making Wolverien the top martial artist, sure he has some really impressive showings but Cap is much better. Not really.

They acknowledged that Reed was smarter.

Just less qualified for the position.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Not really.

They acknowledged that Reed was smarter.

Just less qualified for the position.

Originally posted by the ninjak

He is a different degree of smarts!
Reed is the Explorer twists science into creative ventures whereas Pym masters existing tech! So to say.

Deadline
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Not really.

They acknowledged that Reed was smarter.

Just less qualified for the position.

The explanation though seems dubious.



Originally posted by the ninjak
He completely outsmarted him when Pym's Avengers raided the Baxter Building this happened before the upgrade!


That one example doesn't prove hes smarter.

Originally posted by the ninjak

Reed is the Explorer twists science into creative ventures whereas Pym masters existing tech! So to say.

Thats a bullshit explanation of course Reed masters existing tech as well.

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