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In terms of the performance they've had against other martial artists/street levelers from their universe.

Batman
Captain America
Bullseye
Elektra
Nightwing
Daredevil
Batgirl
Shang Chi
Richard Dragon
Wolverine
Black Panther
Lady Shiva
Iron Fist
Deathstroke

That's kind of difficult to do since we see so many stalemates and non-fights between these people. You almost could put that list in any order you want to and a case could be made for it.

Actually, having been so many fights between all of them and against others, including stalemates, doesn't make ranking them harder. Quite the opposite.

Kinda hard to do. Given the stips..

Elektra
Wolverine
Daredevil
Shiva
Cap
Ironfist

are blocked together in the top spot struggle. As for there actual overall formidability as h2h combatants.

Wolverine sits top because of HF and Adamantium.

Ironfist
Elektra
Steve
Shang-Chi

(the next four are iffy and places can juggle, or even swap the weakest one with Batgirl)

T'Challa
Deathstroke
Daredevil
Shiva

Batgirl
Richard Dragon
Batman
Bullseye
Nightwing

Originally posted by Juk3n
Kinda hard to do. Given the stips..

Elektra
Wolverine
Daredevil
Shiva
Cap
Ironfist

are blocked together in the top spot struggle. As for there actual overall formidability as h2h combatants.

Wolverine sits top because of HF and Adamantium.

Ironfist
Elektra
Steve
Shang-Chi

(the next four are iffy and places can juggle, or even swap the weakest one with Batgirl)

T'Challa
Deathstroke
Daredevil
Shiva

Batgirl
Richard Dragon
Batman
Bullseye
Nightwing


This

Originally posted by Juk3n
Kinda hard to do. Given the stips..

Elektra
Wolverine
Daredevil
Shiva
Cap
Ironfist

are blocked together in the top spot struggle. As for there actual overall formidability as h2h combatants.

Wolverine sits top because of HF and Adamantium.

Ironfist
Elektra
Steve
Shang-Chi

(the next four are iffy and places can juggle, or even swap the weakest one with Batgirl)

T'Challa
Deathstroke
Daredevil
Shiva

Batgirl
Richard Dragon
Batman
Bullseye
Nightwing

how can batman be at the bottom? you put black panther daredevil and captain america over batman?sorry i call it a big pile of bullshit

The issue is that from that list Batman IS at bottom.

Batman beating T'Challa in a dojo is arguable, so is Batman beating Daredevil in a gearless encounter. so yes i put them both at 6/10 over batman.

Originally posted by Bentley
The issue is that from that list Batman IS at bottom.

indeed, well..not the very bottom but very close without his gear.

cap is the best IMO

Cassandra Cain should be pretty high up. Beat Shiva, draws with Slade in all their fights, pretty much loses to no-one in martial arts unless they have powers.

Lawlz at the placings of Batman, Cassie and Richard Dragon.

Captain America vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Elektra vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Daredevil vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Shang Chi vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Wolverine vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Black Panther vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Lady Shiva vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Iron Fist vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.
Deathstroke vs Batman with no gear? Bats loses.

6/10 on alot of cases but Bats has an uphill struggle against all of the above, no doubt.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Kinda hard to do. Given the stips..

Elektra
Wolverine
Daredevil
Shiva
Cap
Ironfist

are blocked together in the top spot struggle. As for there actual overall formidability as h2h combatants.

Wolverine sits top because of HF and Adamantium.

Ironfist
Elektra
Steve
Shang-Chi

(the next four are iffy and places can juggle, or even swap the weakest one with Batgirl)

T'Challa
Deathstroke
Daredevil
Shiva

Batgirl
Richard Dragon
Batman
Bullseye
Nightwing There's not one DC street near the top. Why so?

Based on performances against other streets, like the thread starter said, Batman should be near the top at least.

Originally posted by namorsubby
There's not one DC street near the top. Why so?

Its a very tight list, the difference is minimal. i just happen to give the Marvelites a 6/10 in the cases. DD vs BG = dd 6/10 , same for shiva. T'challa could possibly take 6/10 from the DC girls aswell as From Bruce. Possibly 5/5 split with Deathstroke.

Elektra Takes a solid major from the DC ers going by actual martial showings and displays.

Ironfist rapes stomps everyone on DC here. Wolverine beats them all soundly. Steve Rogers takes a solid 6/10 at least from them all. Not really that much room for them in the top spot now is there?

Originally posted by namorsubby

Based on performances against other streets, like the thread starter said, Batman should be near the top at least.

And replace him with who in my list?

Originally posted by Juk3n
Its a very tight list, the difference is minimal. i just happen to give the Marvelites a 6/10 in the cases. DD vs BG = dd 6/10 , same for shiva. T'challa could possibly take 6/10 from the DC girls aswell as From Bruce. Possibly 5/5 split with Deathstroke.

Elektra Takes a solid major from the DC ers going by actual martial showings and displays.

Ironfist rapes stomps everyone on DC here. Wolverine beats them all soundly. Steve Rogers takes a solid 6/10 at least from them all. Not really that much room for them in the top spot now is there?



And replace him with who in my list?

So you really feel no DC characters deserve to be in the top or in front of those marvel characters?

give me an example of who you would swap out?

1. Dragon: Stalemated Batman without trying, called Bruce a "talented amateur". He would have killed Shiva if interference hadn't prevented it.

2. Shiva: Nightwing and Oracle have both strongly suggest that she is better than Bruce, and Batman himself has thought as much. She is a match for Dragon, but he seems to have the edge.

3. Cass: I feel that Cass > Shiva is largely CIS on Shiva's part, although she is still a contender. Deathstroke says Bruce couldn't beat her on his best day. I won't fault anyone who places her above Shiva though.

4. Deathstroke: Has way more trouble with streets than he should, but on average still is above Batman (if only slightly) and Nightwing. He says the only way for him to beat Cass is with CIS.

5. Batman: He's Batman. He'll put up a fight against anyone on this list, and has stalemated most of them but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence against him and when establishing a hierarchy it hurts his placement.

6. Nightwing: He thinks he can beat Cass in h2h. Dick is allegedly the equal of Bruce now according to some interviews, but I don't know if I buy it.

The Marvel placement is more difficult and convoluted - I'll post it when I finish.

Originally posted by Juk3n
why, the middle of the list is so tightly compacted there is barely anything seperating them, but by the tinyest of margins, Bat is below alot of people here. Or at leaset, it can be argued 6/10 against batman in ALOT of these cases. Yeah, no.

Richard Dragon has pretty much a perfect record, casually having the upperhand on the likes of Batman, dominating and/or beating Shiva (in two separate series, at least one of them being canon).

Batgirl has consistently proven to be above the best, be it Lady Shiva (twice, the second and last time even more conclusivly), Bronze Tiger (even as a little girl) with Bruce and many others giving her mad props at every change as the perfect fighter.

Batman has fought Karate Kid (two versions, including the pre-Crisis one) and performed exceptionally, had the upperhand in direct h2h combat against peak Prometheus in the rematch (this is actually an insane feat), stalemated and/or defeated Lady Shiva (it's ambiguous whether or not there was mind-control involved when he defeated her), King Snake, David Caine, Ra's Al Ghul in sword fights (centuries old) and many others.

Their record are certainly one of, if not the best and to put them at the bottom is laughably ignorant.

I don't have to call you dumb for not being able to read the thread's purpose properly, as in this not being a one-on-one vs match between the contestants (which you're trying to make it) but a performance chart, do I?

Deathstroke's Meta abilities put him somewhere near the very top IMO. Batman has to be near the top, if we're considering overall impressiveness as displayed in feats.

just saying those, It's seems all the marvel characters are at the top, and all the DC characters are at the bottom. You've even got bullseye in front of Nightwing, in h2h formmidability? really?

Originally posted by namorsubby
You've even got bullseye in front of Nightwing, in h2h formmidability? really?

Definetley

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


4. Deathstroke: Has way more trouble with streets than he should, but on average still is above Batman (if only slightly) and Nightwing. He says the only way for him to beat Cass is with CIS.

Slade beat nightwing three times. The first two times had to be the most humiliating defeats NW has suffered. When I say he casually beat him, I mean like effortlessly.

oh yeah, NW said himself slade was faster and stronger in the first fight, although it was already painfully evident.lol

Batman contended with slade, then got savagely beaten in a way I don't see any of the marvel combatants achieving(except wolverine).

Originally posted by Juk3n
Definetley let me guess, because of the Elektra fights?

no one can do that to her and not be an uber martial artist, right? lol

In his best performance against Slade, Nightwing admitted that Slade could beat him without breaking a sweat.

There are certainly arguments as to why he shouldn't be placed that high (he was one-shotted or casually handed by Shiva on two separate ocassions, not that it's a terrible showing given how good Shiva is), but he's constantly improved to the point that, in the latest years, he has had very impressive skill showings in combat, not limited to beating Ra's Al Ghul, doing very good against the Batman clone in hand to hand, outfighting Jason in Battle for the Cowl and others.

Cassandra's brain wiring basically works as a power, so IMO it makes sense for her to be above Shiva, and their results bear that out.

Dragon and Cass have never met up and Dragon's not as active as he used to be so it's hard to tell which of them is number one.

Marvel:

1. Wolverine: Wolverine has beaten more MA's (DD, Shang-Chi, Moonknight, Raza, Shatterstar ect) in a just a few panels than anyone. He is also one of the few who have managed to use something a kin to a pressure point on someone as skilled as Captain America. Wolverine has claimed he is better than Captain America.

2. Captain America: Captain America is largely considered the best fighter on Marvel Earth - he has beaten or stalemated virtually everyone on this list. He has claimed he is better than Iron-Fist, and a few of Shang-Chi's rogues have said he is better than Shang-Chi. One of the few Marvel characters stated on panel to be a master of every known MA.

3. Elektra: Elektra has beaten Taskmaster, who completely demolished Cat a man who has stalemated and beaten Shang-chi and Iron-Fist at his best, and completely demolished Deadpool. She isn't the same character she was when she first appeared, her skills as a fighter have improved drastically since her conception. Her skills have has evolved from being in the shadow of Daredevil to eclipsing Matt with her own.

4. Shang-Chi: Shang-Chi has stalemated IF / Elektra, but neither of those were really fights. His former rival Midnight Sun - has fought Mantis in h2h, and although he lost proved he was a contender, which says a lot about Shang-Chi, a man who has beaten Midnight Sun several times. Black Panther says Shang-Chi is better than IF. Zaran the Weapon Master says Captain America is better than Shang-Chi. Wolverine has soundly beaten him in a handful of panels (although Shang-Chi did hold his own against him in a training match).

5. Iron-Fist: Danny has stalemated DD / Shang several times, and is 1-1 with Cat. Captain America says he's better than Iron Fist, and Wolverine has called him an "amateur" but he may have just been referring to his espionage skills IIRC.

6. Daredevil: The Batman of Marvel U. He has beaten or stalemated most of the people on this list, his lower placement is largely do to anecdotal evidence. Wolverine beat him in a few panels after getting ambushed.

7. Black Panther: Has stalemated DD several times, and he managed to beat a mind controlled Iron-fist but this was largely do to his equipment and the experience traumatized him for a while. Based on his encounter with Deadpool, he is slightly more skilled in h2h than Wade.

8. Bullseye:* He has fought both DD and Elektra at the same time and held his own. This is largely due to the specificity of his training, he is greater threat to Elektra and DD, as these are who he trains to fight. If he trained with the same fanaticism to contend with the other fighters on this list he would be higher.

DC

1. Dragon: Stalemated Batman without trying, called Bruce a "talented amateur". He would have killed Shiva if interference hadn't prevented it.

2. Shiva: Nightwing and Oracle have both strongly suggest that she is better than Bruce, and Batman himself has thought as much. She is a match for Dragon, but he seems to have the edge.

3. Cass: I feel that Cass > Shiva is largely CIS on Shiva's part, although she is still a contender. Deathstroke says Bruce couldn't beat her on his best day. I won't fault anyone who places her above Shiva though.

4. Deathstroke: Has way more trouble with streets than he should, but on average still is above Batman (if only slightly) and Nightwing. He says the only way for him to beat Cass is with CIS.

5. Batman: He's Batman. He'll put up a fight against anyone on this list, and has stalemated most of them but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence against him and when establishing a hierarchy it hurts his placement.

6. Nightwing: He thinks he can beat Cass in h2h. Dick is allegedly the equal of Bruce now according to some interviews, but I don't know if I buy it.

The Marvel and DC lists intersect at the fallowing places in terms of skill. Iron-Fist = Richard Dragon. Daredevil = Batman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
1. Dragon: Stalemated Batman without trying

Pre-Crisis.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
called Bruce a "talented amateur".

Non-canon.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
2. Shiva: Nightwing and Oracle have both strongly suggest that she is better than Bruce

Oracle has also stated that Dinah is more skilled than Bruce...

***** is clueless.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and Batman himself has thought as much.

Despite his winning record against her.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
3. Cass: Deathstroke says Bruce couldn't beat her on his best day.

Aside from Bruce constantly chiding her about her technique, she's had some pretty inconsistent showings as of late that make it hard for me to place her over Bats.

Originally posted by batdude123
Pre-Crisis.


Richard Dragon's entire origin and series is Pre-Crisis, but it has been reference many times Post-Crisis being virtually identical.

Originally posted by batdude123
Non-canon.


The entire reason people question whether or not it is canon is because subsequent books have referenced Dragon / Shiva's classic Pre-Crisis history... which you want to ignore. lol

Originally posted by batdude123
Oracle has also stated that Dinah is more skilled than Bruce...

***** is clueless.


On that we agree.

Originally posted by batdude123
Despite his winning record against her.


He beat a mind controlled Shiva once and had side kick help every other time.

Originally posted by batdude123
Aside from Bruce constantly chiding her about her technique, she's had some pretty inconsistent showings as of late that make it hard for me to place her over Bats.

Like I said - Bruce's placement is largely do to anecdotal evidence and the opinions of others. By the large he has at least stalemated everyone on this list.

Without gear or powers:

Elektra/Batgirl/Shang/Dragon/Shiva
Daredevil/Iron Fist/Wolverine
Cap
Nightwing
Black Panther/Batman
Deathstroke/Bullseye

very good list srank....although i dont nec agree with every placement, I liked how you gave reasons and didnt just list them

Originally posted by Starscream M
very good list srank....although i dont nec agree with every placement, I liked how you gave reasons and didnt just list them

I don't necessarily agree with them all either but based on fights and hearsay that is the most accurate list I could come up with. The problem is we have to rely on anecdotal evidence if we want to come up with an order or else we end up with a string of DD = Cap = Iron Fist = Elektra = Wolverine, because 9/10 when two heroes fight it is going to be a stalemate regardless on who is superior.

Originally posted by batdude123

Aside from Bruce constantly chiding her about her technique, she's had some pretty inconsistent showings as of late that make it hard for me to place her over Bats.

Constantly chiding? I can only remember him criticizing her technique once, before she learned to talk (and really, he had just missed the finishing move she used on him). Oh, and when she temporarily lost her reading. He tends to speak glowingly of her technique overall.

Also, there have not been that many inconsistent showings. There were her on-drug showings, but post-that, the Network had her be badass, Outsiders too, and the Beechen mini had her get another Slade draw.




The only unassisted win against Shiva was the mind-control one iirc. Most of the time he only wins if he has help.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Richard Dragon's entire origin and series is Pre-Crisis, but it has been reference many times Post-Crisis being virtually identical.

Regardless of his origins, we're dealing with a non-canon version of Batman (Earth 2) who was stated to be long dead in Infinite Crisis.

I don't see how that holds up.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The entire reason people question whether or not it is canon is because subsequent books have referenced Dragon / Shiva's classic Pre-Crisis history... which you want to ignore. lol

Because 52 made it clear that the Richard Dragon in Dixon's series wasn't the one that's canon. Not to mention Dixon flat-out stating he he did his own thing with Dragon, independent of everything else.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
On that we agree.

Good.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He beat a mind controlled Shiva once and had side kick help every other time.

Whether or not she was mind-controlled is speculative. Also, whether or not that affected her combat effectiveness is speculative.

The first time they met, Shiva was using nunchuks, and Batman casually disarmed her like nothing, and was basically not even taking her seriously until the second half of that fight.

In any case, she's never been portrayed as being above Batman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like I said - Bruce's placement is largely do to anecdotal evidence and the opinions of others. By the large he has at least stalemated everyone on this list.

Feats weigh more heavily, imo.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Slade beat nightwing three times. The first two times had to be the most humiliating defeats NW has suffered. When I say he casually beat him, I mean like effortlessly.

oh yeah, NW said himself slade was faster and stronger in the first fight, although it was already painfully evident.lol

Batman contended with slade, then got savagely beaten in a way I don't see any of the marvel combatants achieving(except wolverine).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade01_01.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade01_02.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade01_03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_01.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_02.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_03.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_05.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_06.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_07.jpg

Man, I miss Richard Dragon. I doubt we'll be seeing from him in the near future.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Man, I miss Richard Dragon. I doubt we'll be seeing from him in the near future.

DC streets with no affiliation to Batman don't get much love.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
DC streets with no affiliation to Batman don't get much love.

Yeah, kudos to Marvel, who actually USE theirs. Suck DC doesn't do the same. Though, we might see a street or 2 in the Birds of Prey series. Gail seems to like to use them, but she hasn't used Dragon yet.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade01_01.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade01_02.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade01_03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_01.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_02.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_03.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_05.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_06.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/th_nightwingvsslade03_07.jpg

like someone else said, in Grayson's best showing against him(above), NW admits slade can kill him without breaking a sweat. Slade also floored him in two shots before grayson had that miraculous surge brought on by his conviction not to fail. Guess you can afford to pull that when you're the protagonist in your own series. even so, all grayson did was hit and run.


Also, where is Grayson's three wins? was that last one supposed to be a win?


edit:

lol, yet another easy ownage? found it in the album on the links you supplied

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/nightwingvsslade02_01.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/nightwingvsslade02_02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Nightwing/nightwingvsslade02_03.jpg

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yeah, kudos to Marvel, who actually USE theirs. Suck DC doesn't do the same. Though, we might see a street or 2 in the Birds of Prey series. Gail seems to like to use them, but she hasn't used Dragon yet.

Dragon appeared in Birds of Prey during the Brother's in Silk battle. Canary called him in for the fight.

Nice list Srank. I don't have too many problems with it. Obviously you could state good reasons for any of those people to be #1, but I think Wolverine has done enough to have earned that distinction.

Originally posted by amnesia
cap is the best IMO I agree with my doom bot

Are we taking into account they're powers and superhuman abilities or just skill in martial arts and H2H combat?

For example: Batman is more skilled and devoted to martial arts than Steve Rogers. Rogers' enhancements would give him a slight edge in the physical stats department, however.

The same goes for Slade. Slade isn't on either Batman or Cap's level as far as raw H2H skill goes; but he dwarfs them(or Bruce atleast) in physical stats.

Powers/Enhancements Allowed
Iron Fist
Wolverine
Cassandra Cain
Deathstroke
Richard Dragon
Elektra
Lady Shiva
Captain America
Daredevil
Batman
Black Panther
Nightwing
Bullseye

Pure Skill
Richard Dragon
Elektra
Lady Shiva
Cassandra Cain
Batman
Shang Chi
Iron Fist
Captain America
Wolverine
Daredevil
Nightwing
Black Panther
Bullseye
Deathstroke

Rough list; alot of it is debatable but that's how I see it today.

You have the Wolverine as one of your least skilled.

I think you're insane.

Almost as insane as having him as your most skilled.

i have him as ONE of the most skilled. And OVERALL forbidability at number 1` for obvious reasons.

Nothing there is too farfetched. But stating him as one of the LEAST skilled is quite farfetched.

am i lying? By feats? Srsly?

Wasn't referring to you.

my bad, my web insecurities got the better of me.

No harm?

I'm pretty harmed right now.

Haha I love how Punishers beaten Bullseye in h2h twice but hes not on the list. KMC snobbery.

Originally posted by batdude123
I'm pretty harmed right now.

Im sending you e-love. Buckets of it. Feel Better!!

Originally posted by Deadline
Haha I love how Punishers beaten Bullseye in h2h twice but hes not on the list. KMC snobbery. dude, i respect you as a poster, but this is pretty butthurt

Someone had to be at the bottom, wouldn't you rather see Bullseye there over punisher? I mean realistically, Pun would place pretty low on here aswell.

Just sayin'

Bronze tiger isnt here either, nor is taskmaster or deadpool or a host of others that could be if this was a list of the 'absolute best' but it isnt, and theres no slight to punisher here, just from not being included.

Originally posted by Juk3n
dude, i respect you as a poster, but this is pretty butthurt

Someone had to be at the bottom, wouldn't you rather see Bullseye there over punisher? I mean realistically, Pun would place pretty low on here aswell.

Just sayin'

Bronze tiger isnt here either, nor is taskmaster or deadpool or a host of others that could be if this was a list of the 'absolute best' but it isnt, and theres no slight to punisher here, just from not being included.

hahaha. You got me.

Originally posted by Deadline
hahaha. You got me.

now GTFO!

Originally posted by Juk3n
now GTFO!

Wahhhhhh!!!!! durhulk

batman should be among the toppest his pure skills are amazing

Originally posted by Martian_mind
He knocked him off a train after he'd only recently had his skull beaten in by Tim Drake, was in the middle of breakdown, and had completely immobilised Dick earlier and given up that advantage to move a curtain.

That Dick failed to outright KO him after that is not exactly a boost to his H2H skills IMO. In the fight with Tim the only real damage he received was three crowbars that didn't manage anything but draw blood, as he managed to stab Tim and laugh about it. And it's quite hypocritical to use a previous fight as excuse of the character not being 100% in a latter confrontation, when Jason started the one with Dick just after Grayson had been electrocuted, which made him scream in pain and had him on the ground. Even more, you're bringing up when Jason had Dick imobilized -- when it happened due to the scarecrow gas (which you conveniently didn't mention), that Jason used when he was getting his ass handed to him h2h by Dick.

Dick was portrayed as dominantly superior in hand to hand throughout that fight and Jason mostly resorted to cheap tricks like scarecrow gas, explosions to get an advantage.;, you're grossly missexagerating his 'mental breakdown' that had no bearing on the actual fight, and it was Dick who was struggling to keep his mind clear throughout the fight (funny how that turns out) due to being worried for Tim, as he explicitly states. Furthermore, like I said, you're ommiting vital details (how Jason had him "completly immobilised but gave that advantage up to move a curtain" or bringing up other scenes (Tim hitting him with the crowbar) as proof of him being not full speed, while ignoring more clear-cut ones like Dick being electrocuted.

I could post the scans, but we both know you don't want that.

Originally posted by batdude123
I'm pretty harmed right now. skimmed and thought i read "hard" (no homo)

Originally posted by Juntai
Yeah, Batman also stopped Cassandra in No Man's Land pretty much using one hand the whole time. I believe he blocked with the offhand once.
He was purposely showing her his clear superiority.
"I can stop them. I can stop them all."

but dident it turn out she was actaully toying with him and he thought he was dominating but then he started coughing up blood and she smiled at him?

all it showed was that cass did some damage to bats while he was trying to put on his tough guy image not that she was better or toying with him b/c she wasnt she was winded

Originally posted by Battlehammer
but dident it turn out she was actaully toying with him and he thought he was dominating but then he started coughing up blood and she smiled at him? No.

His arm had cuts on it, that's all.

Cassandra improved a lot post-NML, worth noting is one year before their duel, it was stated that Cassandra would flat-out lose to Shiva. It's only that training that allowed her to win.

In issue 50 of Batgirl, Batman and Cassandra fought in extended combat and she had him on the defensive/retreating most of the time.

Cassandra regularly does better against Deathstroke than Batman does.


From the way Batman talks to her and about her with fighting involved, I'm pretty sure he gives her the slight nod in martial arts over just about everyone.

-
I do find it odd that people rate Shiva above Cass, when Cassandra has beaten her twice (in fights Shiva acknowledges as clean defeats) and IMO generally has better showings.

Originally posted by Q99
Cassandra improved a lot post-NML, worth noting is one year before their duel, it was stated that Cassandra would flat-out lose to Shiva. It's only that training that allowed her to win.

In issue 50 of Batgirl, Batman and Cassandra fought in extended combat and she had him on the defensive/retreating most of the time.

Cassandra regularly does better against Deathstroke than Batman does.


From the way Batman talks to her and about her with fighting involved, I'm pretty sure he gives her the slight nod in martial arts over just about everyone.

-
I do find it odd that people rate Shiva above Cass, when Cassandra has beaten her twice (in fights Shiva acknowledges as clean defeats) and IMO generally has better showings. I imagine she would get better than Bruce pretty much showing her he can own her with one hand. But worth noting is that even back then Bruce and others would talk her up. It's a confidence thing. Like saying Tim is a better detective than Bruce, lol.

Bruce beat Shiva too, though she may have been mind controlled, it wasn't verified however.

And issue 50 also resulted in a stalemate as well.

And are we considering pure hand to hand in this thread? Because the OP doesn't say so. Just steel levels performance against others.

If we consider Bruce gets his gadgets, he'll destroy Cassandra. And in all likely-hood probably has more than a dozen ways to stop her cold not even considering getting into hand to hand, then would easily be a match for her up close.

Just read back some in this thread.

People actually think Daredevil performs better in comics than the ****ing Batman?

You can't be serious.

Originally posted by Juntai
Just read back some in this thread.

People actually think Daredevil performs better in comics than the ****ing Batman?

You can't be serious.

Indeed.

Shit's pretty hilarious.

Well DD does have his bullet batting feats which are more impressive than dodging bullets and his pressure point feats in terms of complexity are better.

DD would lose to Batman though in h2h.

Originally posted by Deadline
Well DD does have his bullet batting feats which are more impressive than dodging bullets and his pressure point feats in terms of complexity are better.

DD would lose to Batman though in h2h.

DD has Karnak-esq "find the weakness" feats, better pressure point feats, comparable strength and skill feats, and better speed and agility feats... but apparently DD ain't shit. GO BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Battlehammer
but dident it turn out she was actaully toying with him and he thought he was dominating but then he started coughing up blood and she smiled at him?

It largely the opinion of Batman fans that Bruce Wayne briefly suffered from a unmentioned, one time only case of consumption that he cured off panel. dur

The "fight" ended with him coughing up blood and having no idea that Cass had even done something that would cause that to happen. Not really sure how that can possibly be misconstrued into Batman having an edge... but Batman fans are tricky (read: completely and totally insane and delusional) like that.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
DD has Karnak-esq "find the weakness" feats, better pressure point feats, comparable strength and skill feats, and better speed and agility feats... but apparently DD ain't shit. GO BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yay KMC logic huh?

cap
batman
black panther
daredevil
wolverine

rest

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It largely the opinion of Batman fans that Bruce Wayne briefly suffered from a unmentioned, one time only case of consumption that he cured off panel. dur

The "fight" ended with him coughing up blood and having no idea that Cass had even done something that would cause that to happen. Not really sure how that can possibly be misconstrued into Batman having an edge... but Batman fans are tricky (read: completely and totally insane and delusional) like that.
You have scans?
Looking at No Man's Land Volume 3 right now. Where's it at?
Unless it's a panel they cut out of the trade specifically, because we see him leave the graveyard that battle happens in and no such thing happened.

All that's happened is his forearm has cuts on it. She gets blood on her from them, but the existed before, so weren't caused by her.
In the event that is the case either way, she did land one blow in that fight, punched him in the mouth.
Either way, it ended with her like a deer in headlights as he stopped at her neck with what was shown to us in flashback to be an ending blow.
He had her, and easily.

Scans would be nice, she also didn't do too badly against Batman in Legends of the Dark Knight.

Originally posted by Juntai
You have scans?
Looking at No Man's Land Volume 3 right now. Where's it at?
Unless it's a panel they cut out of the trade specifically, because we see him leave the graveyard that battle happens in and no such thing happened.

All that's happened is his forearm has cuts on it. She gets blood on her from them, but the existed before, so weren't caused by her.
In the event that is the case either way, she did land one blow in that fight, punched him in the mouth.
Either way, it ended with her like a deer in headlights as he stopped at her neck with what was shown to us in flashback to be an ending blow.
He had her, and easily.


I remember that one. Yeah Batman did have the advantage on Cass.


The other one Cass had the advantage on him when he coughed up blood. But IIRC Batman had asked her not to hold back on him.

The other fight was like Batman 50 or Batgirl 50 as they were both under a the influence of a gas or something. That fight was a draw.

Showing more or less these two are portrayed as equals.

Here are my rankings.

Marvel (Pure skill)


1.Shang-chi
2.Daredevil
3.Ironfist
4.Elektra
5.Steve
6.Logan
7.BlackPanther(BP or Logan can be very interchangeable)


DC(Pure skill)

1.Richard Dragon
2.Batgirl
3.Batman(Bat or BG are interchangeable really)
4.Shiva
5.Slade
6.Nightwing(though he's definitely skill wise on the rise)

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Here are my rankings.

Marvel (Pure skill)


1.Shang-chi
2.Daredevil
3.Ironfist
4.Elektra
5.Steve
6.Logan
7.BlackPanther(BP or Logan can be very interchangeable)


DC(Pure skill)

1.Richard Dragon
2.Batgirl
3.Batman(Bat or BG are interchangeable really)
4.Shiva
5.Slade
6.Nightwing(though he's definitely skill wise on the rise)


lol

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Here are my rankings.

Marvel (Pure skill)


1.Shang-chi
2.Daredevil
3.Ironfist
4.Elektra
5.Steve
6.Logan
7.BlackPanther(BP or Logan can be very interchangeable)

*Looks at username.*

Hrm.

^ It ain't Shang Chi.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
*Looks at username.*

Hrm.


Thats why he's at the number 1 spot huh.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
lol



Yeah because Logan should be much higher then the rest in just Pure Skill....LOL(Me thinks someone is sore about that)

My rankings is just on skill. No power sets/healings/SSS. Heck most of the time I defend/debate only Steve and Daredevil and yet on my pure skill rankings even I know Steve isn't the most skilled compared to the others, nor DD as I put Shang above even him.

On performance and "power set", I would have Logan first....Cap second. For the Marvel side anyways.

Originally posted by Deadline
^ It ain't Shang Chi.


My ranking is not based on /power set and performance against others per TS.

Mine was solely on pure skill. On performance and power set I would have Logan first....Cap second. For the Marvel side anyways.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yeah because Logan should be much higher then the rest....LOL(Me thinks someone is sore about that)

My rankings is just on skill. No power sets/healings/SSS. Heck most of the time I defend/debate only Steve and Daredevil and yet on my pure skill rankings even I know Steve isn't the most skilled compared to the others, nor DD as I put Shang above even him.

Logan's placement isn't even the worst thing about your list and your DC one is almost bad as the Marvel one.

Shang-Chi and Zaran have both said, or strongly suggest that Captain America is more skilled than Shang-Chi, and Captain America has told Iron Fist to his face that he (Steve) was more skilled than him (Iron Fist). Even without his powers Steve is in the top spot or tied for it.

Shang-Chi is more skilled than Daredevil. Ironfist is more skilled than Daredevil. Captain America is more skilled than Daredevil. Elektra is more skilled than Daredevil. Wolverine is more skilled than Daredevil. Daredevil is more skilled than Black Panther.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Logan's placement isn't even the worst thing about your list and your DC one is almost bad as the Marvel one.

Shang-Chi and Zaran have both said, or strongly suggest that Captain America is more skilled than Shang-Chi, and Captain America has told Iron Fist to his face that he (Steve) was more skilled than him (Iron Fist). Even without his powers Steve is in the top spot or tied for it.

Shang-Chi is more skilled than Daredevil. Ironfist is more skilled than Daredevil. Captain America is more skilled than Daredevil. Elektra is more skilled than Daredevil. Wolverine is more skilled than Daredevil. Daredevil is more skilled than Black Panther.


Wrong Zaran said Cap is the greater "fighter". And that I agree with. Cap's power set thanks to the SSS/A-list fighter does indeed make him the greater fighter in my humble opinion. Again srank learn to read.

No he told Ironfist.....Mantis level is not enough. For obvious reasons.

Wolverine would be lucky to be above Black Panther in the pure skill.

Shang and Daredevil have never fought but I do rank Shang above him anyways in pure skill. Danny not so much since there fights have ended in stalemates and DD having the edge in other encounters against Danny.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
.

Wolverine would be lucky to be above Black Panther in the pure skill.
oh you are so very wrong my friend, so very very wrong.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Wrong Zaran said Cap is the greater "fighter". And that I agree with. Cap's power set thanks to the SSS/A-list fighter does indeed make him the greater fighter in my humble opinion. Again srank learn to read.

No he told Ironfist.....Mantis level is not enough. For obvious reasons.

Wolverine would be lucky to be above Black Panther in the pure skill.

Semantics, better fighter means more skilled. No one says better fighter when they really mean "stronger and faster" it simply doesn't have those connotations. Nice attempt to twist things though... I guess.

And the obvious implication of that statement is that Cap is more skilled than Iron Fist.

Wolverine has thrashed Shang-Chi, got Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels, stalemated Stick and told Captain America he was better than him before almost killing poor ol' Steve with a pressure point. He's better than Panther, he's better than Daredevil.

Prove he's above him. Show me Logan fighting Panther with both there powers turned off....LOL.

It arguable Dum Dum Dugan. Its close but I go for Panther by a little.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Semantics, better fighter means more skilled. No one says better fighter when they really mean "stronger and faster" it simply doesn't have those connotations. Nice attempt to twist things though... I guess.

And the obvious implication of that statement is that Cap is more skilled than Iron Fist.

Wolverine has thrashed Shang-Chi, got Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels, stalemated Stick and told Captain America he was better than him before almost killing poor ol' Steve with a pressure point. He's better than Panther, he's better than Daredevil.


Yeah for power set you logic works. For pure skill it doesn't. Better fighter does not mean more skilled.

So I guess Superman is a better fighter then Cap.....LOL

I see you ignore Wolverines power set and translate it all skill....LOL.

What's funny I remember reading some idiot marvel staffers rank martial artists in pure skill. Those marvel staffers were morons but even they were not that dumb to put Logan as number 1 in pure skill.

LOL

And that doesn't speak that much for those staffers either.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Prove he's above him. Show me Logan fighting Panther with both there powers turned off....LOL.


Wolverine has better skill feats, hence he is more skilled. Duh.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Semantics, better fighter means more skilled.


Noted that that you lied and tried to twist Zaran's scan reference.

Way to be a liar srank.


So you lie about references you need to post exactly what they say and quit changing words to suit you evidence.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has better skill feats, hence he is more skilled. Duh.


Accept he doesn't show more skill then the rest of the Marvel Elites. He's lucky for his powerful power set.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yeah for power set you logic works. For pure skill it doesn't. Better fighter does not mean more skilled.


Better fighter means more skilled. What do you think it means? Christ.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
So I guess Superman is a better fighter then Cap.....LOL


Apparently he is according to your definition of the word where better fighter somehow means "superior physically specimen." dur

If a character is a "better fighter" then they are better a fighting, if they are better a fight then they are more skilled at fighting, if they are more skilled at fighting then they are a more skilled fighter. Stop eating lead paint.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I see you ignore Wolverines power set and translate it all skill....LOL.


No need to ignore Wolverine's powers, outside of the Cap one they didn't come into play in any of the instances I mentioned. He was just plain better.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Accept he doesn't show more skill then the rest of the Marvel Elites. He's lucky for his powerful power set.

He's the only Marvel MA who has successfully executed a pressure point effectively in battle against Captain America, he is the only Marvel MA who has effortlessly pawned Shang-Chi and he has Karnak level pressure point feats. Wolverine has the best feats of application of raw skill of any street level MA in Marvel or DC.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Better fighter means more skilled. What do you think it means? Christ.


Oh and means skill? Better fighter Steve is. Let see

Enhancement...check

Super Soldier....check

A-list skills....check

Incredible weapon as Commander Rogers...check

Incredible offensive/defensive shield as Cap...check

He is the better fighter because of all that. Being a better fighter is not the same as being the more skillful martial artist.





Yes better because he's enhanced and the combination with his skill.

To say that Logan is more skilled in the arts in comparison to the likes of Danny, Shang, and yes even Daredevil is laughable.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He's the only Marvel MA who has successfully executed a pressure point effectively in battle against Captain America, he is the only Marvel MA who has effortlessly pawned Shang-Chi and he has Karnak level pressure point feats. Wolverine has the best feats of application of raw skill of any street level MA in Marvel or DC.


Thank god even the marvel idiot staffers don't agree with you. Or we'd all be screwed.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Oh and means skill? Better fighter Steve is. Let see

Enhancement...check

Super Soldier....check

A-list skills....check

Incredible weapon as Commander Rogers...check

Incredible offensive/defensive shield as Cap...check

He is the better fighter because of all that. Being a better fighter is not the same as being the more skillful martial artist.


None of what you said is relevant. When someone says that Silva is the number one P4P fighter in the world, they mean is he the most skilled fighter in MMA. That's what it means, better fighter means more skilled, it doesn't mean stronger, it doesn't mean faster, it means better fighter.

Captain America is a more skilled fighter than Shang-chi, Daredevil or Iron Fist.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yes better because he's enhanced and the combination with his skill.

No. If Character A is more skilled but another Character B is stronger, Character B isn't considered a better fighter, he is considered stronger. The word fighter has no connotations of strength, it is about about fighting ability/prowess which are just synonyms for skill.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
To say that Logan is more skilled in the arts in comparison to the likes of Danny, Shang, and yes even Daredevil is laughable.

And yet he is. Would you like me to help you find your local comic shop so you can pick up some back issues and be knowledgeable the next time you want to post?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Thank god even the marvel idiot staffers don't agree with you. Or we'd all be screwed.

Luckily the majority of writers agree with me, hence Wolverine having better skill feats, so it's all good.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
None of what you said is relevant. When someone says that Silva is the number one P4P fighter in the world, they mean is he the most skilled fighter in MMA. That's what it means, better fighter means more skilled, it doesn't mean stronger, it doesn't mean faster, it means better fighter.

Captain America is a more skilled fighter than Shang-chi, Daredevil or Iron Fist.



No. If Character A is more skilled but another Character B is stronger, Character B isn't considered a better fighter, he is considered stronger. The word fighter has no connotations of strength, it is about about fighting ability/prowess which are just synonyms for skill.



And yet he is. Would you like me to help you find your local comic shop so you can pick up some back issues and be knowledgeable the next time you want to post?


So wrong. Again your logic of better fighter = more skilled is completely upsurd. P4P is in accordance when all weight being equal so of course it's argued for skill in Anderson's favor. That's why Anderson doesn't fight above at Heavy Weight because he wouldn't be the better fighter for obvious reasons with it not having to do with pure skill. You pretty much wrecked your own argument with that logic.


I tell you what I'll give you a chance. Show me Logan defeating A-listers consistently with his powers turned off. Otherwise you have no case for him being more skilled.....as illogical as you already sound.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
So wrong. Again your logic of better fighter = more skilled is completely upsurd. P4P is in accordance when all weight being equal so of course it's argued for skill in Anderson's favor. That's why Anderson doesn't fight above at Heavy Weight because he wouldn't be the better fighter for obvious reasons with it not having to do with pure skill. You pretty much wrecked your own argument with that logic.


I tell you what I'll give you a chance. Show me Logan defeating A-listers consistently with his powers turned off. Otherwise you have no case for him being more skilled.....as illogical as you already sound.

It's not absurd, it's 100% accurate. If a character is a "better fighter", then they are by definition better at fight. It is synonymous with more skilled.

People still say that BJ Pen is a better fighter than most of the welter weight, he is just too small to compete there and be competitive. The word by it's very definition has nothing to do with any of the things you are talking about. Silva doesn't go to light heavy weight not because he would be a worse fighter, because he wouldn't, he doesn't go up because he might not be successful against larger fighters. That size difference doesn't make them "better fighters" it makes them bigger, stronger fighters, and those are two completely different things.

He beat Shang-Chi effortlessly in a handful of panels without taking a hit. His powers were irrelevant because they didn't factor into the equation. Obviously his would have to be more skilled to accomplish this.

Originally posted by Juntai
You have scans?
Looking at No Man's Land Volume 3 right now. Where's it at?
Unless it's a panel they cut out of the trade specifically, because we see him leave the graveyard that battle happens in and no such thing happened.

All that's happened is his forearm has cuts on it. She gets blood on her from them, but the existed before, so weren't caused by her.
In the event that is the case either way, she did land one blow in that fight, punched him in the mouth.
Either way, it ended with her like a deer in headlights as he stopped at her neck with what was shown to us in flashback to be an ending blow.
He had her, and easily.

I know it's old, but I wanna comment on what's being missed here.




That wasn't a fight at all, that was a conversation.

The suicide drill was a kata that Cain had shown both of them- Cassandra was talking to Bruce via using it.

It was accompanied by flashbacks of Bruce and Cain using the exact same moves during his training. In other words, they both knew the ending before it happened, it was going through known motions.


They never fought, even in sparing, until the Batgirl series.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


He beat Shang-Chi effortlessly in a handful of panels without taking a hit. His powers were irrelevant because they didn't factor into the equation. Obviously his would have to be more skilled to accomplish this.


Lies again. Shang did hit Logan IIRC. Logan even stated first blood goes to you.

Also did you forget about there fight in the past....lol as Shang held Logan over that old monument there were fighting on and had the advantage.


Again you lie and again you don't reference there other fight and again you clearly lack the meaning of skill and fighter and can't distinguish the difference of Logan physical ability/powers and contribute it to just skill is sad.

Shang holds his own with lack of anything other then HTH. The fact speaks and your bias towards Wolverine is well known.

Originally posted by Q99
I know it's old, but I wanna comment on what's being missed here.




That wasn't a fight at all, that was a conversation.

The suicide drill was a kata that Cain had shown both of them- Cassandra was talking to Bruce via using it.

It was accompanied by flashbacks of Bruce and Cain using the exact same moves during his training. In other words, they both knew the ending before it happened, it was going through known motions.


They never fought, even in sparing, until the Batgirl series.

The confusion seems to be that not everyone is aware the the instance in question and the fight in No Man's Land are two separate instances.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Lies again. Shang did hit Logan IIRC. Logan even stated first blood goes to you.

Also did you forget about there fight in the past....lol as Shang held Logan over that old monument there were fighting on and had the advantage.


Again you lie and again you don't reference there other fight and again you clearly lack the mean of skill and fighter and can't distinguish the difference of Logan physical ability/powers and contribute it to just skill is sad.

Shang holds his own with lack of anything other then HTH. The fact speaks and your bias towards Wolverine is well known.

True Shang-Chi kicked Wolverine in the face with a cheap shot after Logan saved him, but once the fight started in ernst, Shang-Chi couldn't touch him, and Wolverine took him apart in seconds.

That is a training match/spar. Panther has beaten Cap in training match. Tim Drake has beaten Shiva in a training match. A 12 year old Black Widow has beaten Wolverine in a training match. They are largely irrelevant, even ones where the outcome is accurate like Captain America beating Shang-Chi in Secret Avengers. I didn't reference the Wolverine / Shang training match in First Class because like all training matches it doesn't mater.

Shang-Chi has Batgirl style body reading, some of the best speed feats of any street level MA bar non, and the ability to amp his attributes to blatantly superhuman levels with his chi.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
True Shang-Chi kicked Wolverine in the face with a cheap shot after Logan saved him, but once the fight started in ernst, Shang-Chi couldn't touch him, and Wolverine took him apart in seconds.

That is a training match/spar. Panther has beaten Cap in training match. Tim Drake has beaten Shiva in a training match. A 12 year old Black Widow has beaten Wolverine in a training match. They are largely irrelevant, even ones where the outcome is accurate like Captain America beating Shang-Chi in Secret Avengers. I didn't reference the Wolverine / Shang training match in First Class because like all training matches it doesn't mater.

Shang-Chi has Batgirl style body reading, some of the best speed feats of any street level MA bar non, and the ability to amp his attributes to blatantly superhuman levels with his chi.


Point is he hit him and it did not appear Logan was not prepared. Second match was still a match with even Logan using his claws the guy was pissed, Shang advantage I see you just like to make excuses. Panther beat Cap in a training match are you talking about the one were Cap was still recovering from his wounds from Iron Man in Civil War...Context is important.

Training matches are relevant if it displays both abilities in just point fights not trying to go for the kill, unless specific fighter states he's holding back.

I'm glad you reference Shang's true blue martial arts skill with Chi something Logan lacks in comparison showing more exotic skill is knowing more skill as well.

Thank you come again.

I'd like to see what lame excuse you also make when Logan and Danny fought. Ironfist even made Logan look noobish in there fight.

But obviously Logan is more skilled then the elite and his power set doesn't contribute in the slightest....LOL

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Point is he hit him and it did not appear Logan was not prepared. Second match was still a match with even Logan using his claws the guy was pissed, Shang advantage I see you just like to make excuses. Panther beat Cap in a training match are you talking about the one were Cap was still recovering from his wounds from Iron Man in Civil War...Context is important.

Training matches are relevant if it displays both abilities in just point fights not trying to go for the kill, unless specific fighter states he's holding back.

I'm glad you reference Shang's true blue martial arts skill with Chi something Logan lacks in comparison showing more exotic skill is knowing more skill as well.

Thank you come again.

Wolverine saved Shang-Chi from his assailants, Shang-Chi attacked him with a cheap shot Wolverine dropped him.

The second fight wasn't a fight, it was a training match. Wolverine went to Shang-Chi for the same reason he went to all his others instructors(except Po), to learn to cage the Berserker. The context for the Captain America / Black Panther training fight is irrelevant, it was spar, it already doesn't matter by default.

Yeah Wolverine can't use chi, because of his berserker rage his mind and body aren't one and he has no balance. Doesn't change the fact that his application of skill and technique is nearly peerless.

nearly peerless....LOL Shang saved himself by blocking there bullets by using one of them as a shield IIRC. Logan helped there's a difference.

Yeah when Logan even does half of the stuff(and that's being generous) to characters like Shang who have not powers,enhancements, or offensive weapons get back to me.

Because your Logan bias has been shown.

Clearly.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I'd like to see what lame excuse you also make when Logan and Danny fought. Ironfist even made Logan look noobish in there fight.

But obviously Logan is more skilled then the elite and his power set doesn't contribute in the slightest....LOL

It happened 30 years ago before Wolverine was developed into in a skilled fighter? Jukko effortlessly schooled Iron Fist in h2h, and he couldn't compete with Wolverine.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
nearly peerless....LOL

Yeah when he even does 80 % of the stuff(and that's being generous) to characters like Shang who have not powers,enhancements, or offensive weapons get back to me.

Because you Logan bias has been shown.

Clearly.

Shang-Chi does have powers and enhancements... he's walks on cielings, spins so fast he creates tornadoes and gets punched into orbit and survives

Wolverine wrecked Shang-Chi in h2h. He did it in seconds. He did it with out getting hit. He didn't use his claws until Shang-Chi was pinned. His healing factor didn't matter. His senses didn't matter. That is what Wolverine would do to Shang-Chi in a real fight even without his powers. Other than guys like the Mandarin and Temugen, or Stick and Ogun, Wolverine and Captain America are the two most skilled fighters on Marvel earth. Hands down.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It happened 30 years ago before Wolverine was developed into in a skilled fighter? Jukko effortlessly schooled Iron Fist in h2h, and he couldn't compete with Wolverine.



ha ha ha I saw that excuse coming a mile away. Fact of the matter its in continuity and Danny treated him like a noob. Yup Logan relying on his power set against Jukko really helped him. Again you have no proof Logan is more skilled then Shang.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi does have powers and enhancements... he's walks on cielings, spins so fast he creates tornadoes and gets punched into orbit and survives

Wolverine wrecked Shang-Chi in h2h. He did it in seconds. He did it with out getting hit. He didn't use his claws until Shang-Chi was pinned. His healing factor didn't matter. His senses didn't matter. That is what Wolverine would do to Shang-Chi in a real fight even without his powers. Other than guys like the Mandarin and Temugen, or Stick and Ogun, Wolverine and Captain America are the two most skilled fighters on Marvel earth.



No Shang has skills and his skills lets him do incredible things, please no the distinction. No SSS no fancy claws.. no fancy healing factor not even a mutant. Logan got hit and Shang had the advantage in there other match up. Try again.

He does everything that he does through skill. And those skills can indeed make a lot of kills. Get it skills and kills rhyme.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
ha ha ha I saw that excuse coming a mile away. Fact of the matter its in continuity and Danny treated him like a noob. Yup Logan relying on his power set against Jukko really helped him. Again you have no proof Logan is more skilled then Shang.

By excuse you mean undisputed fact? Wolverine was a nobody when Iron Fist tossed him around, he wasn't a skilled fighter, he didn't have a healing factor, he was just a bruiser. Junzo only "hit" Wolverine once by transmuting the earth underneath him, he owned Danny effortlessly and he couldn't compete with Wolverine in melee.

No proof other than Wolverine effortlessly owning Shang-Chi in combat...

Originally posted by Daredevil1
No Shang has skills and his skills lets him do incredible things, please no the distinction. No SSS no fancy claws.. no fancy healing factor not even a mutant. Logan got hit and Shang had the advantage in there other match up. Try again.

He does everything that he does through skill. And those skills can indeed make a lot of kills. Get it skills and kills rhyme.

Shang-Chi has chi. Wolverine wrecked him without getting hit. The second "fight" was a training match which is irrelevant, and Shang-Chi conceded that Wolverine was the master now, at the end of that issue anyway.

And Shang having the upper hand in the other fight.

Fact that he was getting owned despite Logan's portrayal of the time. Indeed Logan looked like a noob against him. Fact. Not my problem how Logan was portrayed with a set of adamantium claws and he was portrayed as having uber durability as just a slasher.


I don't think anyone in there right mind would say Logan has more skill then Shang. LOL I love that you keep on posting so more others can read this.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
And Shang having the upper hand in the other fight.

Fact that he was getting owned despite Logan's portrayal of the time. Indeed Logan looked like a noob against him. Fact. Not my problem how Logan was portrayed with a set of adamantium claws and he was portrayed as having uber durability as just a slasher.


I don't think anyone in there right mind would say Logan has more skill then Shang. LOL I love that you keep on posting so more others can read this.

Not a fight, a training match. Shang-Chi attacked Wolverine with various weapons, Wolverine attempted to blocked or parry and then retreat. He never attempt to push the offensive, because it wasn't a fight. He was there to learn how to control his berserker. The outcome is irrelevant like all spars and training matches.


Anyone familiar with both characters on the level I am would be well aware of the fact that Wolverine is more skilled than Shang-Chi. Wolverine effortlessly beat him in X-Men 62, and after they spared in First Class 09, Shang-Chi conceded that Wolverine was the master now.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi has chi. Wolverine wrecked him without getting hit. The second "fight" was a training match which is irrelevant, and Shang-Chi conceded that Wolverine was the master now, at the end of that issue anyway.

Shang has Chi skills.
Called him the master after answering the question right........LOL.

Not for there encounter which Shang dominated him. he he he he he.


Logan got wrecked and didn't even hit Shang in that match unlike Logan he did got hit in the X-men one. So much for more skill then Shang.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Shang has Chi skills.
Called him the master after answering the question right........LOL.

Not for there encounter which Shang dominated him. he he he he he.


Logan got wrecked and didn't even hit Shang in that match unlike Logan he did got hit in the X-men one. So much for more skill then Shang.

Application of chi is separate from the execution martial technique with derives from how skilled a fighter is.

In a training match. Awesome. Robin beat Lady Shiva in a training match. Are you going to have any counter points that are relevant or do you think you will continue braying about this training match that doesn't matter?

Wolverine didn't hit Shang-Chi because he wasn't trying to. It was a training match, he was there to learn to control his anger not to beat up Shang-Chi. Did you bother reading the book or did you get distracted by the pretty pictures?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Application of chi is separate from the execution martial technique with derives from how skilled a fighter is.

In a training match. Awesome. Robin beat Lady Shiva in a training match. Are you going to have any counter points that are relevant or do you think you will continue braying about this training match that doesn't matter?

Wolverine didn't hit Shang-Chi because he wasn't trying to. It was a training match, he was there to learn to control his anger not to beat up Shang-Chi. Did you bother reading the book or did you get distracted by the pretty pictures?


Application of chi is part of the techniques that utilize the technique to its maximum efficency, which distinguishes a skillful from a non skillful fighter. Robin was enhanced by a superdrug when he had the advantage on Shiva.....LOL. Yes he was trying too hit Shang. Prove it show a statement that Logan says he wasn't trying to hit him otherwise its just a another of your imaginary Logan wet dreams HA. The had a match without anger intentions it(Well Logan did in the end...ha) they didn't have gloves on and set up rules now did they....LOL.

Seriously he got owned by Shang in that match and he got owned by Danny and yet Logan is supposed to be superior to these A-listers.

Ha what a joke.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Application of chi is part of the techniques that utilize the technique to its maximum efficency, which distinguishes a skillful from a non skillful fighter. Robin was enhanced by a superdrug when he had the advantage on Shiva.....LOL. Yes he was trying too hit Shang. Prove it show a statement that Logan says he wasn't trying to hit him otherwise its just a another of your imaginary Logan wet dreams HA. The had a match without anger intentions it(Well Logan did in the end...ha) they didn't have gloves on and set up rules now did they....LOL.

Seriously he got owned by Shang in that match and he got owned by Danny and yet Logan is supposed to be superior to these A-listers.

Ha what a joke.

Chi ability is separate from martial skill.

That's not the Robin vs Shiva fight, nor am I talking about the time Robin poisoned her before they fought.

Shang-Chi edged out Wolverine in a irrelevant training match. Wolverine owned Shang-Chi in a fight. Iron Fist tossed Wolverine out a window 30 years ago before Wolverine because a 120 year old samurai super spy. Do you have an relevant points are you just going to concede now?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Chi ability is separate from martial skill.

That's not the Robin vs Shiva fight, nor am I talking about the time Robin poisoned her before they fought.

Shang-Chi edged out Wolverine in a irrelevant training match. Wolverine owned Shang-Chi in a fight. Iron Fist tossed Wolverine out a window 30 years ago before Wolverine because a 120 year old samurai super spy. Do you have an relevant points are you just going to concede now?



LOL Robin poisoned her....LOL Lets see it then or the context of it, if its not that one. I have already proven you to be a liar.

Shang dominated Logan in a match. The training was the philosophy Logan got owned in a true match. No the difference. Shang straight up told him he was going to hit him and he did and Logan couldn't do a darn thing about it....Fact.

Ironfist dominated Logan fact. Logan does not have Shang's chi skills and could not even dream of doing some of Shang's techniques

Seriously your bias of Logan love has clouded severely and you should refrain from discussing Logan for a very long time. Start from issue 1 and come back to us in 80 years after much studies.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
LOL Robin poisoned her....LOL Lets see it then or the context of it, if its not that one. I have already proven you to be a liar.

Shang dominated Logan in a match. The training was the philosophy Logan got owned in a true match. No the difference. Shang straight up told him he was going to hit him and he did and Logan couldn't do a darn thing about it....Fact.

Ironfist dominated Logan fact. Logan does not have Shang's chi skills and could not even dream of doing some of Shang's techniques

Seriously your bias of Logan love has clouded severely and you should refrain from discussing Logan for a very long time. Start from issue 1 and come back to us in 80 years after much studies.

When did you prove me a liar? All you have done is bray like a donkey and cite pointless examples of little to no relevance for a dozen posts. lol

Get a Robin appearance guide. Get a Shiva appearance guide. Cross reverence. Find the issue yourself.

Shang-Chi beat Wolverine in a training match. So has Storm. Both completely irreverent. Training matches have no baring on how a real fight would play out. Case in point Wolverine vs Shaing-Chi.

Iron Fist beat Wolverine with before he was developed as a character. Wolverine doesn't need Shang-Chi's chi abilities because he is a superior fighter. His application of technic is better than Shang-Chi's.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When did you prove me a liar? All you have done is bray like a donkey and cite pointless examples of little to no relevance for a dozen posts. lol

Get a Robin appearance guide. Get a Shiva appearance guide. Cross reverence. Find the issue yourself.

Shang-Chi beat Wolverine in a training match. So has Storm. Both completely irreverent. Training matches have no baring on how a real fight would play out. Case in point Wolverine vs Shaing-Chi.

Iron Fist beat Wolverine with before he was developed as a character. Wolverine doesn't need Shang-Chi's chi abilities because he is a superior fighter. His application of technic is better than Shang-Chi's.

Lying about Shang not hitting Logan lying about the Zaran reference and changing his words to suit your top tier illogical logic.

Seriously your credibility is severed.

Ah I see you can't even reference it so you just making stuff up again. I should have known you lack anything other then real substance for a debate, either way there match up is irrelevant towards our discussion. This isn't about Robin or Storm...this is about Shang Chi beating Wolverine in a "fight" match......more like dominated him. eh he still lost to Danny character development or not its continuity and Logan got owned.

Better application due to his power set /abilites that you think magically vanishes when Logan fights.........LOL

Seriously you have nothing now at this point.

Your logic is so postmortem.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Lying about Shang not hitting Logan lying about the Zaran reference and changing his words to suit your top tier illogical logic.

Seriously your credibility is severed.

Ah I see you can't even reference it so you just making stuff up again. I should have known you lack anything other then real substance for a debate, either way there match up is irrelevant towards our discussion. This isn't about Robin or Storm...this is about Shang Chi beating Wolverine in a "fight" match......more like dominated him. eh he still lost to Danny character development or not its continuity and Logan got owned.

Better application due to his power set /abilites that you think magically vanishes when Logan fights.........LOL

Seriously you have nothing now at this point.

Your logic is so postmortem.

Shang-Chi cold clocked Logan, once the fight started he didn't hit him. Zartan said Cap was a better fighter, which is synonymous with more skilled... you just someone decided that it means he is better because he has a SSS and a shield.... which it doesn't.

Robin v1. Clearly you lack the comic knowledge to "debate" with me, why bother if you haven't even read essential reading of the someone as high profile as Robin? Christ.

Shang-Chi didn't beat Wolverine in a fight match. He beat him in a training match. It's completely irrelevant no matter how much you cry about it. Wolverine came to Shang-Chi to train, he didn't go to him to beat him up and get into a dick measuring contest, he didn't even attempt to attack him once. It was a training match, and you have nothing. So sad, why do you continue to embarrass yourself? Have some self respect and hold on to whats left of your dignity.

Danny beat Wolverine 30 years ago when about a dozen appearances and virtually no character development. You might as well be talking about year one Batman getting stapped by a hooker or shot by police officers, it is completely irrelevent. Try harder please.

None of Wolverine's abilities help him apply his technique better. He has a healing factor, claws and enhanced senses. Which one of those do you think came into play when he folded Shang-Chi like a napkin and pinned him effortlessly? He didn't get hit, the weren't fighting in a pitch black room where only Wolverine could see and his claws only came into play after Wolverine pinned him. There is nothing there but skill. Shang-Chi went into melee with Wolverine, and he wasn't skilled enough to compete, he wasn't skilled enough to be in the same league even.

Yeah because were all fans of Robin......ha? Got milk....got desperate.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yeah because were all fans of Robin......ha? Got milk....got desperate.

I'm not, but I've still read all his appearances... but hey I like to be knowledgeable about the things I'm talking about. Maybe you should give it a try? I think you'll enjoy not having to taste your foot in your mouth all the time.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi cold clocked Logan, once the fight started he didn't hit him. Zartan said Cap was a better fighter, which is synonymous with more skilled... you just someone decided that it means he is better because he has a SSS and a shield.... which it doesn't.

Robin v1. Clearly you lack the comic knowledge to "debate" with me, why bother if you haven't even read essential reading of the someone as high profile as Robin? Christ.

Shang-Chi didn't beat Wolverine in a fight match. He beat him in a training match. It's completely irrelevant no matter how much you cry about it. Wolverine came to Shang-Chi to train, he didn't go to him to beat him up and get into a dick measuring contest, he didn't even attempt to attack him once. It was a training match, and you have nothing. So sad, why do you continue to embarrass yourself? Have some self respect and hold on to whats left of your dignity.

None of Wolverine's abilities help him apply his technique better. He has a healing factor, claws and enhanced senses. Which one of those do you think came into play when he folded Shang-Chi like a napkin and pinned him effortlessly? He didn't get hit, the weren't fighting in a pitch black room where only Wolverine could see and his claws only came into play after Wolverine pinned him. There is nothing there but skill. Shang-Chi went into melee with Wolverine, and he wasn't skilled enough to compete, he wasn't skilled enough to be in the same league even.


His enhanced stats.......LOL Again how conveniently you forget that. Not my fualt Shang has the skills to utilize chi arts and Logan isn't skillful enough to do so and his fast healing ability from that Shang hit that was for the fight as well and his enhanced durability....LOL.

Shang even mention accelarted healing abiity for Logan.

Logan is enhanced and you call yourself knowledgeable on Logan your making yourself look like a noob just like Logan did against Ironfist.

Shang dominated him in a fight match and Logan couldn't do anything. Danny did the same and this is the same guy who is above head and shoulders over guys like Shang and Danny.....ha!

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm not, but I've still read all his appearances... but hey I like to be knowledgeable about the things I'm talking about. Maybe you should give it a try? I think you'll enjoy not having to taste your foot in your mouth all the time.



Good for your reading his appearances frankly that's not what at stakes and his match up is irrelevant towards the discussion at hand. But I will try to check it just to conclud if you have been lying more again.

Heck you do know Cap has defeated Hawk in past training matches repeatedly and shows that Cap is over Hawkeye and when the had a real match up in Hawkeye in blind spot 2.

Clint won the real fight. Does that mean Hawkeye is better....hell no. Training match do show a key of who's better(not pure skill mind you), plus Shang's training was more philosophical learning, while there match up was not-key difference. Too separate events taking place at the same time.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
His enhanced stats.......LOL Again how conveniently you forget that. Not my fualt Shang has the skills to utilize chi arts and Logan isn't skillful enough to do so and his fast healing from that Shang hit that was for the fight as well and his enhanced durability....LOL.

Logan is enhanced and you call yourself knowledgeable on Logan your making yourself look like a noob just like Logan did against Ironfist.

Shang dominated him in a fight match and Logan couldn't do anything. Danny did the same and this is the same guy who is above head and shoulders over guys like Shang and Danny.....ha!

You mean the enhanced stats which Shang-Chi also has?

Chi has nothing to do with skill, a character doesn't just become so skilled they develop chi. They mediate until they can use it. Darth Sidius' ability with the force has no correlation to his skill with a light saber. Wolverine can't use chi, but that doesn't effect his technique in throwing a punching. Martial artist are encouraged to develop and hone chi alongside their actually combat technique but they are two completely separate abilities. The Mandarin isn't uber skilled because he has chi, he is uber skilled and he has chi.

Wolverine is barely superhuman, the difference between him and Shang-Chi physically isn't enough to warrant Wolverine completely no selling him. The difference in attributes between Batman and Lady Shiva would be more drastic.

Shang-Chi beat Wolverine in a training match. Iron Fist beat Wolverine 30 years ago when he had about a dozen appearances. You have nothing.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Good for your reading his appearances frankly that's not what at stakes and his match up is irrelevant towards the discussion at hand. But I will try to check it just to conclud if you have been lying more again.

Heck you do know Cap has defeated Hawk in past training matches repeatedly and shows that Cap is over Hawkeye and when the had a real match up in Hawkeye in blind spot 2.

Clint won the real fight. Does that mean Hawkeye is better....hell no. Training match do show a key of who's better(not pure skill mind you), plus Shang's training was more philosophical learning, while there match up was not-key difference. Too separate events taking place at the same time.

Clint beat Cap because of PIS. It happens sometimes not much you can do about it but that doesn't chance the fact that training matches are irrelevant. They are no indication on how a real fight would play out because one party is trying to teach, and other part is trying to learn. They aren't going full boar and trying to beat each other. When Panther beat Cap, Steve told him right to his face that in a real fight that isn't what would happen. Training matches, sparing matches and fights where one party his mind controlled are completely and utterly irreverent.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You mean the enhanced stats which Shang-Chi also has?

Chi has nothing to do with skill, a character doesn't just become so skilled they develop chi. The mediate until they can use it. Darth Sidius' ability with the force has no correlation to his skill with a light saber. Wolverine can't use chi, but that doesn't effect his technique in throwing a punching. Martial artist are encouraged to develop and hone chi alongside their actually combat technique but they are two completely separate abilities. The Mandarin isn't uber skilled because he has chi, he is uber skilled and he has chi.

Wolverine is barely superhuman, the difference between him and Shang-Chi physically isn't enough to warrant Wolverine completely no selling him. The difference in attributes between Batman and Lady Shiva would be more drastic.

Shang-Chi beat Wolverine in a training match. Iron Fist beat Wolverine 30 years ago when he had about a dozen appearances. You have nothing.



LOL at Shang having enhanced stats. Sure through incredible skills that Logan isn't up to par with....yes. Your logic is so obsolete its terrible. Shang has chi through uber skills. It takes skillful practitioners to learn to use it especially with certain techniques with offense/defense. Logan is not at that level.

Shang no selled Logan and Danny dominated Logan.

Seriously you don't have much and your logic is completely illogical.

The fact that you are ignoring Logan's stats proves that you can't distinguish his abilities well.

Shang is more skilled then Logan.
Danny is more skilled then Logan.
Elektra is more skilled then Logan..
Daredevil is more skilled then Logan.

Logan better be thankful he's a mutant with powers even Deadpool gave him a thrashing when Logan lost his healing abilities.

Robin beat Shiva in a training match because of PIS.

Easy and voided.

Is a cop out but since you used it. What's good for the gander etc etc.

Now do you have any substance with Logan losing his powers and actually stalemating some of the best.


Until then you don't have anything.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
LOL at Shang having enhanced stats. Sure through incredible skills that Logan isn't up to par with....yes. Your logic is so obsolete its terrible. Shang has chi through uber skills. It takes skillful practitioners to learn to use it especially with certain techniques with offense/defense. Logan is not at that level.

Shang no selled Logan and Danny dominated Logan.

Seriously you don't have much and your logic is completely illogical.

The fact that you are ignoring Logan's stats proves that you can't distinguish his abilities well.

Shang is more skilled then Logan.
Danny is more skilled then Logan.
Elektra is more skilled then Logan..
Daredevil is more skilled then Logan.

Logan better be thankful he's a mutant with powers even Deadpool gave him a thrashing when Logan lost his healing abilities.

Chi doesn't make someone a more skilled fighter, it makes them a chi practitioner, the two are mutually exclusive and develop separate from each other. Shang-Chi amps his stats with chi, Psylock amps her stats with tk... it doesn't make her more skilled combatant. Shang-Chi's ability to amp his attributes with chi is not an extension of his skill as a fighter, it is a separate ability. Plain and simple.

Shang-Chi didn't "no sell" Wolverine. Wolverine didn't even attempt to hit him. He hit Wolverine in the face twice after Logan got cocking, then Wolverine blocked all his attacks until Shang-Chi made him lose his footing on the edge of a building. Awesome. Shang-Chi won a completely irrelevant training match, you get Obama on the phone and I'll see what I can do about the parade.

Wolverine is more skilled than Shang-Chi.
Wolverine is more skilled than Iron Fist.
Wovlerine is more skilled than Daredevil.
Elektra and Wolverine are about equal.

Deadpool only managed to "give Wolverine a thrashing" because he himself had a healing factor. If he didn't Wolverine would have killed him in the second panel...

Originally posted by Badabing
Bats & Cap

...

...

...

...

Everybody else. sneer

http://media.kotaku.com.au/wp//2010/10/phoenix-wright-objection.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Chi doesn't make someone a more skilled fighter, it makes them a chi practitioner, the two are mutually exclusive and develop separate from each other. Shang-Chi amps his stats with chi, Psylock amps her stats with tk... it doesn't make her more skilled combatant. Shang-Chi's ability to amp his attributes with chi is not an extension of his skill as a fighter, it is a separate ability. Plain and simple.

Shang-Chi didn't "no sell" Wolverine. Wolverine didn't even attempt to hit him. He hit Wolverine in the face twice after Logan got cocking, then Wolverine blocked all his attacks until Shang-Chi made him lose his footing on the edge of a building. Awesome. Shang-Chi won a completely irrelevant training match, you get Obama on the phone and I'll see what I can do about the parade.

Wolverine is more skilled than Shang-Chi.
Wolverine is more skilled than Iron Fist.
Wovlerine is more skilled than Daredevil.
Elektra and Wolverine are about equal.

Deadpool only managed to "give Wolverine a thrashing" because he himself had a healing factor. If he didn't Wolverine would have killed him in the second panel...


Yes a chi user who did it by learning and practicing it through there techniques. It's a a technique that can be learned just like the vast many other techniques in martial arts. Psylock has actual powers unlike Shang. No the difference. Shang even blocked a class 60-70 punch through his chi techniques. Logan is below his skill and the fact that you argue it is not even realistic. Shang had the edge I'm glad you agree. The training wasn't the fight but the philosophy of it big....big difference.

Exactly DP had a healing factor and Logan didn't. Advantage DP because he could heal.........and Logan could not at the time. Thats exactly my point accept against Logan vs his A-list peers.

Now apply this to Logan and his powers/adamantium against his street.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yes a chi user who did it by learning and practicing it through there techniques. It's a a technique that can be learned just like the vast many other techniques in martial arts. Psylock has actual powers unlike Shang. No the difference. Shang even blocked a class 60-70 punch through his chi techniques. Logan is below his skill and the fact that you argue it is not even realistic. Shang had the edge I'm glad you agree. The training wasn't the fight but the philosophy of it big....big difference.

Exactly DP had a healing factor and Logan didn't. Advantage DP because he could heal.........and Logan could not at the time. Thats exactly my point accept against Logan vs his A-list peers.

Now apply this to Logan and his powers/adamantium against his street.

Shang-Chi wasn't standing around one day doing Kung-Fu forms, punching a Mu ren zhuang or diving his hands into cool and suddenly he developed the ability to use chi. He developed chi through meditation. IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS SKILL AS A FIGHTER. It is a separate ability. He isn't a more skilled fighter than Wolverine because he can use chi, one has nothing to do with the other.

The "fight" was part of the philosophy. When Wolverine answered wrong, Shang-Chi attacked him... and Wolverine blocked. It wasn't a fight, it was a training exercise, one where Wolverine never once attempted to go on the offensive. Shang-Chi beat Wolverine in a training exercise, Wolverine folded Shang-Chi up like a lawn chair in a fight. Big, big difference.

Anyone other than Deadpool would have been killed in the second panel. Is your point that a powerless Wolverine would kill any fighter without a healing factor in two panels?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi wasn't standing around one day doing Kung-Fu forms, punching a Mu ren zhuang or diving his hands into cool and suddenly he developed the ability to use chi. He developed chi through meditation. IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS SKILL AS A FIGHTER. It is a separate ability. He isn't a more skilled fighter than Wolverine because he can use chi, one has nothing to do with the other.

The "fight" was part of the philosophy. When Wolverine answered wrong, Shang-Chi attacked him... and Wolverine blocked. It wasn't a fight, it was a training exercise, one where Wolverine never once attempted to go on the offensive. Shang-Chi beat Wolverine in a training exercise, Wolverine folded Shang-Chi up like a lawn chair in a fight. Big, big difference.

Anyone other than Deadpool would have been killed in the second panel. Is your point that a powerless Wolverine would kill any fighter without a healing factor in two panels?


Chi isn't learned through just mediation. There was a martial arts master that Taskmaster mimicked a chi strike. That master stated it took him 10 years to develop while TM did it the first time. It's more then just meditation srank. Its not a power like Logans powers if thats what your thinking so it doesn't even matter how you try to stretch it.

Exactly Shang attacked him and whats worse he gave Logan a heads up about it and Shang still did whatever he wanted to.......to Logan. It was separate yet part of the match. Its not like he was teaching Logan on how to throw a punch and then Logan simulating a punch....LOL. Big big difference and it was a fight with Shang teaching Logan philosophy. Shang dominated him and so did Ironfist no ifs and's or buts about it.

No it's my point that Logan did horrible against Deadpool without his healing.

And its my point that Logan Powers play a big role in his fights outside of your logic of its all skill and it counts no matter what type mentality.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
http://media.kotaku.com.au/wp//2010/10/phoenix-wright-objection.jpg

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Chi isn't learned through just mediation. There was a martial arts master that Taskmaster mimicked a chi strike. That master stated it took him 10 years to develop while TM did it the first time. It's more then just meditation srank. Its not a power like Logans powers if thats what your thinking so it doesn't even matter how you try to stretch it.

Exactly Shang attacked him and whats worse he gave Logan a heads up about it and Shang still did whatever he wanted to.......to Logan. It was separate yet part of the match. Its not like he was teaching Logan on how to throw a punch and then Logan simulating a punch....LOL. Big big difference and it was a fight with Shang teaching Logan philosophy. Shang dominated him and so did Ironfist no ifs and's or buts about it.

No it's my point that Logan did horrible against Deadpool without his healing.

And its my point that Logan Powers play a big role in his fights outside of your logic of its all skill and it counts no matter what type mentality.

Yes I remember the iron fist technique Taskmaster copied that stop that guys heart, but that example is the outlier not the standard. Shang-Chi wasn't stand around one day honing his technique and then he spontaneously developed chi because he happened leveled up his Kung-Fu. That's not how it works.

Wolverine wasn't trying to beat up Shang-Chi. Shang-Chi wasn't trying to beat up Wolverine. Shang-Chi wanted to hit him three times, for answering wrong and in the process teach him about the Diamond Sword. Wolverine was there to learn form Shang-Chi, all he attempt to do was block or avoid Shang-Chi's attacks (which he was quite successful at). It was merely a training exercises, if it was a fight it would have - and in point of fact - did played out much differently.

Except he didn't do horrible against Deadpool. Powerless, he fought a skilled opponent with enhanced speed and strength and would have killed him in the second panel if it wasn't for Deadpool's healing factor.

Logan's powers play a big role in a lot of his fights, but they didn't play a role in any of the examples we are talking about, so that point is moot. His powers didn't help him walk all over Shang-Chi, nothing happened that would have required them. He just opened a can of martial arts kick ass that Shang-Chi could deal with.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America knows Gymkata! Confirmed: Steve > Everyone.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/Captain-America-616-pg-28.jpg

-gTkUcXGF_Q

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes I remember the iron fist technique Taskmaster copied that stop that guys heart, but that example is the outlier not the standard. Shang-Chi wasn't stand around one day honing his technique and then he spontaneously developed chi because he happened leveled up his Kung-Fu. That's not how it works.

Wolverine wasn't trying to beat up Shang-Chi. Shang-Chi wasn't trying to beat up Wolverine. Shang-Chi wanted to hit him three times, for answering wrong and in the process teach him about the Diamond Sword. Wolverine was there to learn form Shang-Chi, all he attempt to do was block or avoid Shang-Chi's attacks (which he was quite successful at). It was merely a training exercises, if it was a fight it would have - and in point of fact - did played out much differently.

Except he didn't do horrible against Deadpool. Powerless, he fought a skilled opponent with enhanced speed and strength and would have killed him in the second panel if it wasn't for Deadpool's healing factor.

Logan's powers play a big role in a lot of his fights, but they didn't play a role in any of the examples we are talking about, so that point is moot. His powers didn't help him walk all over Shang-Chi, nothing happened that would have required them. He just opened a can of martial arts kick ass that Shang-Chi could deal with.




Outlier because you don't agree with it. That's how it works and you disagree because it makes your case look bad. Bottom line Shangs skills is >>> Logans skills unless you have some proof of Logan can even do half the things Shang can do and yes it makes sense to practice certain techniques are part with chi just like Taskmaster did but much quickly thanks to his Super Learning Serum.

Plus another note to add. Danny Ironfist also did a skillfull chi punch on Sabretooth after he lost his dragon enhancement power. Your mediation logic is wrong. It was a fight and not to Logan's benefit you just don't like it because Shang looked better and he was better in that fight despite Logan's stats/powers and his skill. You and me will just go circles on this one but so be it. Chi skills are techniques as well that Logan is not able to perform.

So only Deadpools enhance speed and strength help but Logan's against Shang's do not? Seriously I've cornered you into a trap and that's basically it. As Logan's enhanced stats and healing help and he lost to Deadpool without his fancy healing as most of the streets hold there own with Logan without a fancy healing factor or enhanced stats.

Logan's powers play a role and until you come up with some actual scenes where his powers are turned off and Logan stalemates the best, then you'll actually have some good sources. Until then it is silly to even consider Logan above the elite.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Outlier because you don't agree with it. That's how it works and you disagree because it makes your case look bad. Bottom line Shangs skills is >>> Logans skills unless you have some proof of Logan can even do half the things Shang can do and yes it makes sense to practice certain techniques are part with chi just like Taskmaster did but much quickly thanks to his Super Learning Serum.


It's the outlier because that's not how it works... it's how it worked... once... which is an outlier.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Plus another note to add. Danny Ironfist also did a skillfull chi punch on Sabretooth after he lost his dragon enhancement power. Your mediation logic is wrong.


Because Danny having chi outside of Shou-lao the Undying and punching Sabretooth, means he didn't get it through mediation! dur



Originally posted by Daredevil1
It was a fight and not to Logan's benefit you just don't like it because Shang looked better and he was better in that fight despite Logan's stats/powers and his skill. You and me will just go circles on this one but so be it. Chi skills are techniques as well that Logan is not able to perform.


I don't dislike the example, I thought it was a good issue... but that doesn't make it a fight. It was a training match, that was the whole point of the issue. Wolverine went to Shang-Chi to get his help, which is what he got, they weren't in a Blood Sport fight pool. You need it to be a "fight" because if it isn't you have absolutely nothing to support your opinion. You are twisting facts to suit theories, and not theories to suit facts.

Shang-Chi has chi. Wolverine is more skilled. Have chi doesn't arbitrarily make a character more skilled, if it did Dragonfly would be more skilled than Daredevil.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
So only Deadpools enhance speed and strength help but Logan's against Shang's do not. Seriously I've cornered you into a trap and that's basically it. As Logan's enhanced stats and healing help and he lost to Deadpool without his fancy healing as most of the streets hold there own with Logan without a fancy healing factor or enhanced stats.


Shang-Chi has enhanced strength and speed. Haven't we been over this? Do you have brain damage that prevents you from forming new memories? Is that why you say the same thing over and over again even though it has been addressed a dozen times now? I'm not Adam Sander, you're not Drew Barrymore and this isn't 50 First Dates, I'm not going to hold your hand and walk you through the same points over and over again. If you aren't going to read my posts, or you lack the reading comprehension needed to understand them, then don't reply to my posts.

Deadpool beat a powerless Wolverine after getting impaled and carved up because Wade had a healing factor. Wolverine beat Shang-Chi in a couple of panels without getting hit because he was just plain more skilled.


Originally posted by Daredevil1
Logan's powers play a role and until you come up with some actual scenes where his powers are turned off and Logan stalemates the best, then you'll actually have some good sources. Until then it is silly to even consider Logan above the elite.

I don't know why this is complicated for you. Shang-Chi didn't put up a good enough fight for it to mater that Wolverine had powers. Wolverine beat him in like four panels without getting hit... how did his healing factor matter? It didn't. A powerless Wolverine would have dealt with Shang-Chi in the exact same way.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Thats why he's at the number 1 spot huh.
The fact he's even in the Top 4 of that list is pretty telling of bias.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's the outlier because that's not how it works... it's how it worked... once... which is an outlier.

Right because Marvel has come out and stated the only way chi works is through meditation and not practicing techniques....LOL. C'mon srank even your better then this but I guess not.





Yeah because mediation is the only way says you, as again you are clearly wrong. Outliers only count if you can prove it is which you have not. Meditation is one way for internal but one must practice external and also most other Anime univeses go by this and Marvel seems to be following that as well.







Read very slowly srank. Shang has chi skills that are on a level above the likes of Logan. He has more esoteric skills and that makes him more skilled and the fact that he can hold his own without any true powers like Logan or enhancements(adamantium) it really shows there is some what a skill gap between them. This isn't about Dragonfly or Daredevil. This is your ludicrous thinking about Shang/Wolverine that's very quite amusing......indeed.






Shang Chi has no powers and has incredible martial art skills. Yes we've been over this and yet you can't seem to grasp the difference. Its like your in a time loop like the Cap vs Korvac example and Korvac kept on resetting time when Cap was close to winning. Only you keep resetting it by you back wards circular logic and unlike Cap you keep losing. Truly you Logan love is actually looking sick and you need help.






Right Logan won thanks to his combo pack of his power set. Not denying that but to say it's pure skill well is pretty much laughable. I see no reference of Logan ever stalemating the best with his power off. I guess your shit out of luck he he he he he he.

Exactly Logan got owned by Deadpool without a healing factor. Welcome to Shangs world oh thats right Shang does that on a regular bases without a healing factor and he stalemated Wolverine to boot. As explained Shang said he was going to hit him and he did and then had Logan dangling off a cliff.

oh no wait sparrring.......LOL







A regular man would probably be stunned or KOed from that kick. That Shang did caught Logan with. Did you even know that Logan bones are denser then normal. The freak is enhanced? Seriously. Logan won due to his stats/skills and no amounting of you BS will ever change that. No matter how much you cry skill for it.

Again come back with real evidence.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The fact he's even in the Top 4 of that list is pretty telling of bias.

I can see DD being in the top 4 but not that high.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Right because Marvel has come out and stated the only way chi works is through meditation and not practicing techniques....LOL. C'mon srank even your better then this but I guess not.





Yeah because mediation is the only way says you, as again you are clearly wrong. Outliers only count if you can prove it is which you have not. Meditation is one way for internal but one must practice external and also most other Anime univeses go by this and Marvel seems to be following that as well.







Read very slowly srank. Shang has chi skills that are on a level above the likes of Logan. He has more esoteric skills and that makes him more skilled and the fact that he can hold his own without any true powers like Logan or enhancements(adamantium) it really shows there is some what a skill gap between them. This isn't about Dragonfly or Daredevil. This is your ludicrous thinking about Shang/Wolverine that's very quite amusing......indeed.






Shang Chi has no powers and has incredible martial art skills. Yes we've been over this and yet you can't seem to grasp the difference. Its like your in a time loop like the Cap vs Korvac example and Korvac kept on resetting time when Cap was close to winning. Only you keep resetting it by you back wards circular logic and unlike Cap you keep losing. Truly you Logan love is actually looking sick and you need help.






Right Logan won thanks to his combo pack of his power set. Not denying that but to say it's pure skill well is pretty much laughable. I see no reference of Logan ever stalemating the best with his power off. I guess your shit out of luck he he he he he he.

Exactly Logan got owned by Deadpool without a healing factor. Welcome to Shangs world oh thats right Shang does that on a regular bases without a healing factor and he stalemated Wolverine to boot. As explained Shang said he was going to hit him and he did and then had Logan dangling off a cliff.

oh no wait sparrring.......LOL







A regular man would probably be stunned or KOed from that kick. That Shang did caught Logan with. Did you even know that Logan bones are denser then normal. The freak is enhanced? Seriously. Logan won due to his stats/skills and no amounting of you BS will ever change that. No matter how much you cry skill for it.

Again come back with real evidence.

Is srank still trying to argue that Wolverine owned Shang?