Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Scenario, the Yuuzhan Vong have invaded the Old Republic Sith Empire. Who wins this epic war? Take into account all weapons, troops, etc etc. Would the powerful dark side Sith Lords be able to defeat the Vong or would the Vong crush the Sith?

Quick Question: Which Sith Empire is this? From TOR? Revan and Malak's? Exar Kun's? Naga Sadow's?

Naga Sadow . . . discuss

Assuming Sadow has full cooperation from Ludo Kressh and the other members of the Sith Council, he has a decent shot. Sadow's battle meditation is pretty obviously superior to the Vong yammosks and he probably would have taken Coruscant if it hadn't been for Gav's interference. He can also cause stars to go nova, which is a huge ace-in-the-hole and potentially devastating weapon. Also, he and his Council of Sith Lords are really well versed in Sith alchemy and unnatural manipulation of life themselves, and may be able to counter Vongforming and some of their bio-engineered plagues, with a little practice.

I have no idea how many warriors Sadow has at his disposal, though. The Vong probably outnumber them significantly. But again, with battle meditation and the ability to wipe out entire solar systems with his superweapon, the odds certainly even out.

I'd give Sadow's Empire a 50-50 chance at beating the Vong. Exar Kun's Empire probably an 80-20 chance.

They've got absolutely no shot at beating the Vong. They won't be able to sense their presence through the force, their ships are outdated compared to the Vong, and in terms of weapons and sheer numbers, they'll get annihilated.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Assuming Sadow has full cooperation from Ludo Kressh and the other members of the Sith Council, he has a decent shot. Sadow's battle meditation is pretty obviously superior to the Vong yammosks and he probably would have taken Coruscant if it hadn't been for Gav's interference. He can also cause stars to go nova, which is a huge ace-in-the-hole and potentially devastating weapon. Also, he and his Council of Sith Lords are really well versed in Sith alchemy and unnatural manipulation of life themselves, and may be able to counter Vongforming and some of their bio-engineered plagues, with a little practice.

I have no idea how many warriors Sadow has at his disposal, though. The Vong probably outnumber them significantly. But again, with battle meditation and the ability to wipe out entire solar systems with his superweapon, the odds certainly even out.

I'd give Sadow's Empire a 50-50 chance at beating the Vong. Exar Kun's Empire probably an 80-20 chance.

Sorry man, but this is absolutely wrong. There is no way whatsoever that the Sith have any hope of defeating the Vong. Sadow can make a few stars go nova; the Vong can drop a few moons on Sith worlds. Basically the same effect.

The Vong outnumber the Sith more than 10 to 1. Probably like 100 to 1. The Sith have no weapons capable of hurting the Vong ships. The supernova weapon only worked when Sadow was being closely pursued. The Vong will see it starting and leave the system. Ship-to-ship, there's nothing the Sith can do. The Vong ships are way more than a match for any ship prior to the Galatic Empire/very later Old Republic (Venators or Victory star destroyers).

Exar's empire....same thing.

Is this the Sith Empire AND the Old Republic or the Sith Empire at the time of the Old Republic (apparently Sadow's Empire according to Darth Truculent)? It appears to be the latter

Sith Empire as of Naga Sadow's time would be horribly outdated in terms of weapons technology by a few milenia, not to mention that the sith wouldn't be used to not being able to affect their enemies with the Force. The YV stomp.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorry man, but this is absolutely wrong. There is no way whatsoever that the Sith have any hope of defeating the Vong. Sadow can make a few stars go nova; the Vong can drop a few moons on Sith worlds. Basically the same effect.
The Vong had to land on Sernpidal in order to do the moon trick. They did similar with moving Coruscant and her moons. Vong ground forces would be massacred by Massassi and Sith Lord troops.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Vong outnumber the Sith more than 10 to 1. Probably like 100 to 1.
For one, I have no idea if that's true or not, and I'm betting neither do you. Secondly, Naga Sadow can create illusions to more than make up for the numbers. And the illusions actually kill. Thirdly, Sith sorcery could come up with mutated monstrosities like terentateks or Sith wyrms, except suited to hunt Vong life (think reverse-voxyn.)

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Sith have no weapons capable of hurting the Vong ships.
Come again?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The supernova weapon only worked when Sadow was being closely pursued. The Vong will see it starting and leave the system.
I assume Sadow is intelligent enough to place interdictors at the systems exit vectors before triggering the star's explosion, although I could be reaching. He used his battle meditation from multiple systems away, afterall.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ship-to-ship, there's nothing the Sith can do. The Vong ships are way more than a match for any ship prior to the Galatic Empire/very later Old Republic (Venators or Victory star destroyers).
Yeah, the technology gap is huge, maybe. I'm not really sold on the superiority a gap of 5,000 years would normally have. Afterall, apparently they had Star Destroyers 3,500 years before the Galactic Empire's existence. Technology doesn't seem to advance all that much in the Star Wars universe, and Sadow's fleets looked fine to me. The illusions which would give him more numbers and the unity with which they would work because of Sadow's battle meditation would make up for it, IMO.




I'm not saying the Sith Empire would win. I just don't think they'd be blown out, either.

Technology DOES advance within the SW universe. Caedus called ships from the Clone Wars "ancient hardware", and Niathal called them "a flying junkyard" compared to LOTF era ships. Imagine what they'd think of several thousand year old ships. There's a reason why the Old Republic ships aren't used by the Galactic Alliance anymore.

I think by far the biggest advance would be shields on the starfighters...whereas the Sith fleet didn't even have shields on their capital ships. That would be hard to overcome. But then, the Sith had over 100 capital ships in their fleet...

are you talking about their entire fleet? 100 capital ships? that's all? they are going down and going down HARD then.

Originally posted by truejedi
are you talking about their entire fleet? 100 capital ships? that's all? they are going down and going down HARD then.
I don't know if it was just Sadow's resources, or if it was the combined might of the entire Sith Empire, but they had about a hundred Derriphan-class battleships (which is what Naga Sadow's flagship was.) I'm not positive if they have other capital ships aside from that class. I would assume so. From Heritage of the Sith:

"....the size and scope of the Sith Empire rivaled that of the Old Republic."




EDIT: Also, why is 100 a small number to you guys? You've read the battles throughout the NJO era, right? 10-12 capital ships per side is considered a huge battle.

The Battle of Coruscant had how many capital ships? The "ambush" the Imperials set up for the entire Rebal "fleet" was 30 capital ships led by a super capital ship. The Wookiee entry for the Fall of Coruscant listed multiple capital ships that numbered in the hundreds (read: plural hundred) on the Vong side. Halfway down the list of participating classes the "Suuv Ban D'Krid", each 740 meters in length, numbered in the "100+". And that wasn't the big ship-class of the invasion. The pages purports the presence of "tens of thousands" of Yuuzhan Vong ships.

That's not the entire Yuuzhan Vong Fleet either. Their fleet, fresh at the initial onslaught, with highly advanced bio-tech that that the 25 ABY-era galaxy couldn't compete against vs. The Sith fleet of 3600 years-in-the-past technology, controlled and filled with untold numbers of members of an organization that has come to rely on an ethereal energy field that the Vong don't exist in.




Yeah. The Vong are screwed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think by far the biggest advance would be shields on the starfighters...whereas the Sith fleet didn't even have shields on their capital ships. That would be hard to overcome. But then, the Sith had over 100 capital ships in their fleet...

That would be a huge advantage, given that from what I remember ships in SW battles tend to get blown up quite easily as soon as their shields go down.

Oh, and although there are implications that the ancient SW era was superior technologically to the Ruusan era (but not to the movies and after SW era, which is the most advanced so far bar perhaps the Celestials), the latter had a long range rifle that had a range of just 300 meters (compared to the 10 kilometers of a DC 15 or whatever the clone troopers' standard rifle was), still fired in "volleys" and their blasters were apparently so slow loading that a squad of the most elite Republic soldiers could only get off two or so shots before a sith lord cut them down.

I wonder if the Dark Reaper would work on the Vong...

Originally posted by Enyalus
I wonder if the Dark Reaper would work on the Vong...

Doesn't the Dark Reaper drain Force energy? Aren't the YV lacking of Force energy to begin with?

Yeah, it drains the Force. But by draining the Force, it drains the life from someone.

shrug I mean, the Vong are alive...

Sadow's and Ragnos' Sith Empire?

Oh...shit...

The Vong have a tech advantage but I'm pretty sure the Sith could whip up a arcane version of Redwhatever....


No, I'm not reposting all the arguments again right now.

Alpha Red.

And yeah, after Destiny's Way (or whatever book the battle of Ebaq 9 took place in) I found almost every other NJO book after that virtually pointless. They could've wrapped up the series in like, 14 books rather than 19.

Alpha Red reminded the GA too much of Vietnam. Bad memories and all.

Ancient sith sorcery couldn't do everything, which is made apparent in that the ancient sith lost every war against the Jedi and the Republic. There's no proof that the sith could replicate Alpha Red, and even if they could the YV would still pwn them.

Ancient Sith sorcery could rip the core from multiple stars simultaneously.

The Sith mutated multiple species, including the Massassi and, I would assume, humans. That's originally how the exiled Dark Jedi reproduced with their Sith slaves - by using sorcery to make themselves compatible.

There isn't a good reason for believing that the Sith would be unable to engineer something against the Vong.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ancient Sith sorcery could rip the core from multiple stars simultaneously.

The Sith mutated multiple species, including the Massassi and, I would assume, humans. That's originally how the exiled Dark Jedi reproduced with their Sith slaves - by using sorcery to make themselves compatible.

There isn't a good reason for believing that the Sith would be unable to engineer something against the Vong.

Actually it seemed more like stopping the fusion inside of the star and the accelerating the aging process of thousands of years into a second.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Actually it seemed more like stopping the fusion inside of the star and the accelerating the aging process of thousands of years into a second.

"Aleema has used the Sith power in Naga Sadow's ancient ship to rip the core from the center of one of the ten stars in the Cron cluster." Sith War #4.

"Aleema triggers the Sith weapon that rips the core out of a star, instantly devastating the Jedi fleet." Sith War #5

Originally posted by Autokrat
Actually it seemed more like stopping the fusion inside of the star and the accelerating the aging process of thousands of years into a second. That's even more complex and impressive.

Originally posted by Enyalus
"Aleema has used the Sith power in Naga Sadow's ancient ship to rip the core from the center of one of the ten stars in the Cron cluster." Sith War #4.

"Aleema triggers the Sith weapon that rips the core out of a star, instantly devastating the Jedi fleet." Sith War #5

I need to stop trying to explain bullshit like this in a vaguely plausible manner. Star Wars is like super squishy soft.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
That's even more complex and impressive.

And it's also largely irrelevant unless the Sith Fleet was away from the proximity of the supernova.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ancient Sith sorcery could rip the core from multiple stars simultaneously.

The Sith mutated multiple species, including the Massassi and, I would assume, humans. That's originally how the exiled Dark Jedi reproduced with their Sith slaves - by using sorcery to make themselves compatible.

There isn't a good reason for believing that the Sith would be unable to engineer something against the Vong.

Except that the Yuuchan Vong aren't directly affected by the Force.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Except that the Yuuchan Vong aren't directly affected by the Force.
In The Unifying Force Luke said that he would be able to use the Force to levitate a Vong (Harrar), he just couldn't feel him in the Force. And Jaina and Jacen both used Force Lightning on the Vong directly. So clearly, there are limits to the validity of your statement. And biology is biology. The Sith have mutated multiple species of beings. The Vong shouldn't be any different.

That's true, I overlooked that. Using the Force directly on the Vong's biology won't work. But there's nothing stopping the Sith from using the Force to enhance their own "natural" bio-engineering experiments.


I still feel the entire Vong armada would win due to b*tchin numbers and highly advanced tech/weapons. But due to the Sith's aggressive nature and penchant for brutality. It would be a Pyrrhic victory.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I still feel the entire Vong armada would win due to b*tchin numbers and highly advanced tech/weapons. But due to the Sith's aggressive nature and penchant for brutality. It would be a Pyrrhic victory.
I'm coming around to that opinion, too. The Vong had 5,000 ships for the attack on Mon Calamari...I don't know if that included coralskippers, but if it didn't....Sadow's Sith Empire doesn't have the numbers to stop that.

Now, Kun's Empire is another matter entirely. Naddists, Krath, Sith, Fallen Jedi and Mandalorians....that might work.

You forgot Kun himself. With merely a planetary populace worth of sacrifices, he could burn a world to a crisp.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm coming around to that opinion, too. The Vong had 5,000 ships for the attack on Mon Calamari...I don't know if that included coralskippers, but if it didn't....Sadow's Sith Empire doesn't have the numbers to stop that.

Now, Kun's Empire is another matter entirely. Naddists, Krath, Sith, Fallen Jedi and Mandalorians....that might work. Still got the tech problem though. And unlike the Ancient Sith, there are a lot of... lesser species here. Excluding the Mandalorians and maybe the hardcore Sith zealots, the regular humans who make up the bulk of these forces just don't have the sheer tenacity and strength of will to match the Vong's burning drive of victory at any cost.



Originally posted by Letum Lettow
You forgot Kun himself. With merely a planetary populace worth of sacrifices, he could burn a world to a crisp. Eh?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Still got the tech problem though. And unlike the Ancient Sith, there are a lot of... lesser species here. Excluding the Mandalorians and maybe the hardcore Sith zealots, the regular humans who make up the bulk of these forces just don't have the sheer tenacity and strength of will to match the Vong's burning drive of victory at any cost.
Meh, well, the Krath used war droids which killed 'many' of the 'thousands' of Jedi present at the Battle of Deneba. And, at least looks-wise the Krath War Droids kind of resemble the YVH-series. Plus they're armed with pulse-wave pistols, a short sword, and made of durasteel.

Also, apparently they can pull a Wraith Squadron-like atmospheric insertion, being deployed from pods in orbit directly to the surface.

And you still have all the pluses of Sadow's Empire - Aleema being able to use illusions and using his ship to destroy stars, Exar's uberness, Ulic being one of the greatest duelists in Jedi history....

Also worth noting that Mandalore repulsed the Vong invasion when it rolled around to their corner of the galaxy, and they're far more numerous in Exar's time.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Meh, well, the Krath used war droids which killed 'many' of the 'thousands' of Jedi present at the Battle of Deneba. And, at least looks-wise the Krath War Droids kind of resemble the YVH-series. Plus they're armed with pulse-wave pistols, a short sword, and made of durasteel. Are these war droids designed specifically to combat the Yuuzhan Vong ala Lando's? And are they made out of something other than a material which like any laser burns holes in and which Corusca--I mean Yuuzhan'tar used to be made out of?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, apparently they can pull a Wraith Squadron-like atmospheric insertion, being deployed from pods in orbit directly to the surface.I'm actually playing Halo ODST right now.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And you still have all the pluses of Sadow's Empire - Aleema being able to use illusionsIllusion just like Luke used? On the Vong? Originally posted by Enyalus
and using his ship to destroy stars,That's gonna do quite a number on the Vong at first. Originally posted by Enyalus
Exar's uberness,Luke, Kyp, Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, Corran, Katarn, Ganner... Originally posted by Enyalus
Ulic being one of the greatest duelists in Jedi history.... Luke, Kyp, Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, Corran, Katarn, Ganner...


Originally posted by Enyalus
Also worth noting that Mandalore repulsed the Vong invasion when it rolled around to their corner of the galaxy, and they're far more numerous in Exar's time. Were Exar's Mandalorians not defeated by the 4000 years ago Old Republic? Were the new Mandalorians led by someone named Boba "Invincible" Fett, armed with NJO-era technology, and commanding what Wookiee refers to as "a fleet"?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are these war droids designed specifically to combat the Yuuzhan Vong ala Lando's?
shrug They killed Jedi...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm actually playing Halo ODST right now.
Win.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Illusion just like Luke used? On the Vong?
Ya know, the illusion to cloak Yavin 4 worked until Luke made the moronic error of not leaving enough Jedi on the planet to maintain the illusion. Illusions would work on the Vong.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's gonna do quite a number on the Vong at first.
I agree.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Luke, Kyp, Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, Corran, Katarn, Ganner...
I more or less by Exar's uberness meant his Sith sorcery which created battle hydras, terentateks, Night Beasts, ripped the souls out of Massassi children (the Golden Globe incident), and the Dark Reaper superweapon. I mean, all he has to do is point it at a world he doesn't like or knows he can't defend, drain it, then fire it at a Vong-filled world and he has a Sith-based Death Star.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Luke, Kyp, Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, Corran, Katarn, Ganner...
Jacen, Jaina, Anakin and Ganner....better/on Ulic's level? C'mon.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Were Exar's Mandalorians not defeated by the 4000 years ago Old Republic?
No, I'm pretty sure Exar's Mandalorians were defeated because Ulic betrayed them and Aleema was a backstabbing whore.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Were the new Mandalorians led by someone named Boba "Invincible" Fett, armed with NJO-era technology, and commanding what Wookiee refers to as "a fleet"?
Fairly confident in saying that the Mandalorians of this era possessed at least several fleets, considering how numerous they were and their ability to take on the entire Republic by themselves just 20 years later.

Originally posted by Enyalus

shrug They killed Jedi... Clonetroopers kill Jeedais... shrug

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ya know, the illusion to cloak Yavin 4 worked until Luke made the moronic error of not leaving enough Jedi on the planet to maintain the illusion. Illusions would work on the Vong. Nice. Vong are gonna have their hands full with Aleema all across the galaxy at once.


Originally posted by Enyalus
I more or less by Exar's uberness meant his Sith sorcery which created battle hydras, terentateks, Night Beasts, ripped the souls out of Massassi children (the Golden Globe incident), and the Dark Reaper superweapon. I mean, all he has to do is point it at a world he doesn't like or knows he can't defend, drain it, then fire it at a Vong-filled world and he has a Sith-based Death Star. You really gotta wonder why he didn't do that like all the time.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Jacen, Jaina, Anakin and Ganner....better/on Ulic's level? C'mon. Anakin and Ganner went apeshit in to the Force before they died. Ganner killed estimates of thousands. Got him worshipped by the Vong. Creatures that, like Ulic, he couldn't sense. Jacen did his whole "I'm gonna start glowing in the Dark when I kill Vong." Jaina... yeah I got nothing on her 'cept her piloting. But Luke, Kyp, Katarn, Corran... especially the first two...

Originally posted by Enyalus
No, I'm pretty sure Exar's Mandalorians were defeated because Ulic betrayed them and Aleema was a backstabbing whore. Treacherous b*tches.

Wookiee's article on the Battle of Onderon has this to say: "In the skies of above Onderon, the Beast Riders and the Mandalorians on their Basilisk war droids proved to be equally matched. After experiencing taunts from Oron Kira and his men, Mandalore then rallied his troops, fighting with unbridled ferocity. Just as it seemed as though the tide had turned in favor of the Mandalorians, Republic reinforcements in the form of two capital ships commanded by Fleet Captain Vanicus arrived on the battlefront, lending critical firepower to the battle.

Caught between the Republic forces and the Beast Riders, the Mandalorian forces were devastated, although Vanicus at first attempted crippling the enemy ships, a feat which proved impossible due to their deflector-shielding. The only course of action of victory or death. Calling a retreat to the moon of Dxun, Mandalore the Indomitable believed he could lose the Republic pursuit in its dense jungles. Unfortunately for Mandalore, while retreating, a Republic frigate fired upon his Basilisk war droid, and he crashed in the forests far away from the other Mandalorian troops. Rising from the wreckage, Lord Mandalore was immediately set upon by two large beasts of the moon, and was devoured."

I never liked playing through Onderon in KotOR II.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Fairly confident in saying that the Mandalorians of this era possessed at least several fleets, considering how numerous they were and their ability to take on the entire Republic by themselves just 20 years later.

Aw, you're gonna count the whole 'One with the Force' thing as being part of their skill level? They died to do it. Couldn't do it continuously.

And yeah, Dxun is a scary place. Poor Mandalore...

Originally posted by Enyalus
Aw, you're gonna count the whole 'One with the Force' thing as being part of their skill level? They died to do it. Couldn't do it continuously. It's only cause they ran outta Redbull/Energizers.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's only cause they ran outta Redbull/Energizers.
Sith sorcery would have a potion for that.

Like, Dark Viagra, liquid form. Or something.

Are you people...nuts?

First off: "You wish to know about the worlds of the Sith Empire? There were many, well over one hundred that were habitable and the Sith controlled the riches of a thousand species." (Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide Through the Force, p.158)

Yet unlike regular planets, those worlds followed the rules of the Sith Empire, meaning that the strongest should rule. That would naturally have led to a more martial society than the Republic has ever seen, losely resembling the lifestyle of the Vong themselves.

And talking about "the Sith": You have an entire species of force users here, ranking from Massassi Warriors who wield their weapons with force aided strength and precission to Sith magic wielding priests, capable of summoning deadly illusions (see Aleema Keto). That's a fighting force equiped with a fury and determination that was completely unaffected by Jedi Battle Meditation (as seen during the Battle of Korbos in Tales of the Jedi: The Fall of the Sith Empire).

On top of that, you have the various warbeasts that the Sith and Dark Jedi before them did create. Even the original Exiles were a group of Dark Jedi that "discovered that they could use the force to transform creatures into mutant warriors, mounts and spirit-devouring Leviathans" (Vodo Siosk-Baas,Tedryn Holocron, The Essential Guide through the Force, p. 12). This before coming into contact with Sith Alchemy, that led to a nice advantage in that field. Simply imagine the battlefield being swarmed with Leviathans or mutated Massassi Warriors similar to the Nightbeast. Those being aided by tangible illusions capable of drastically raising the actual numbers of the Sith (as seen in The Fall of the Sith Empire). Add the Dark Reaper, a device so powerful that "it will mean the end of the Republic." (Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game)

Then you can add the Sith Lords themselves as icing on the cake. As Kreia told the Exile in KotoR II: The Sith Lords when visiting Korriban: "If you were to face an ancient Sith lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters." One could take Ajunta Pall as an example for that combat prowess, considering that he "personally slew more than a dozen of Jedi in the Battle of Corbus" (Tionne Solusar, Tedryn Holocron, The Essential Guide through the Force, p.12). Add their force aided technology (amulets, sceptres, talismans, whatnot) and I doubt that the Vong would win anything on the ground.

Space-battle? You must be joking. You are aware of the fact, that the Ancient Sith Empire - according to Ajunta Pall in KotoR - controlled the Star Forge, right? Infinite droid starfighters and capital ships anybody? That aside: If Naga Sadows corsair is a standard model of a Derriphan-class battleship - and there is nothing to suggest otherwise-, they have more than one hundred of those ships with all their destructive abilities and could, technically, create an infinite amount of them using the Star Forge.

A single of those ships alone could, potentially, wipe out a large part of the Vong fleet in a suicide attack. Hundreds of those? Even if commanded by lesser Sith Lord - those ships main weapon can be a quite powerful tool, even in the hands of a "lesser" force user like Aleema Keto as seen in Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War. If it works on the principles of telekinesis (which the comment on "ripping the core from a star" that is featured multiple times in Fall of the Sith Empire and The Sith War seems to imply - just like the on panel evidence of Aleema using it), it's entirely possible to destroy Vong ships with more "conventional" means - by ripping them apart.

And again the Sith Lords themselves could turn the battle in favor for the Sith Empire. Imagine huge illusional fleets summoned by Sadow and the Vong wouldn't even know what targets they must shoot, which would be pretty hard already, provided that the Star Forge could be used to produce countless small or capital ships that could be thrown into battle...

That aside:

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And it's also largely irrelevant unless the Sith Fleet was away from the proximity of the supernova.

Sadow used his ship twice against enemies in close proximity to his own forces. Once to destroy his own meditation sphere, killing Gav Deragon in the process and another time to wipe out the ships following him during his escape to Yavin 4. In both cases, he did just trigger some massive solar flares in order to do the job. Yet that would still be enough to destroy an enemy fleet completely unaware of said weapon and - being "blind" in the force - without the ability to understand what was hitting them.

Conclusion: On the ground, the Sith Empire would be almost unbeatable as long as the illusions can be kept up - which shouldn't be a problem as the Meditation Sphere can be hidden at some remote location. In space battle, the Vong would have a better chance - but they are confronted with an enemy that capable of turning hundreds of ships in the Sith's navy into sun-system-killing superweapons. Imagine one faction of the SW Galaxy controlling 100 Sun Crushers...

Add the fact that the Sith Empire has a potentially unlimited amount of ground and space forces (droids / droid ships from the Star Forge), I really don't see how the Vong should be able to win this...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Are you people...nuts?

First off: "You wish to know about the worlds of the Sith Empire? There were many, well over one hundred that were habitable and the Sith controlled the riches of a thousand species." (Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide Through the Force, p.158)

Yet unlike regular planets, those worlds followed the rules of the Sith Empire, meaning that the strongest should rule. That would naturally have led to a more martial society than the Republic has ever seen, losely resembling the lifestyle of the Vong themselves.

And talking about "the Sith": You have an entire species of force users here, ranking from Massassi Warriors who wield their weapons with force aided strength and precission to Sith magic wielding priests, capable of summoning deadly illusions (see Aleema Keto). That's a fighting force equiped with a fury and determination that was completely unaffected by Jedi Battle Meditation (as seen during the Battle of Korbos in Tales of the Jedi: The Fall of the Sith Empire).
All of which is irrelevant against superior numbers, superior technology, and a foe that can't be sensed through the force.


Tell me, how many warbeasts out there, because they're not "limitless", and what are they going to do against the various types of ground troops genetically created by the Vong?


Great, because Kreia lived a thousand years earlier and would definitely be able to back that statement up. Hmmm or is it flat out bias? And Ajunta Pall? Who gives a monkey's ass? There is absolutely NO information on the Jedi he slew. For all you know, they were above average at best, and it took him a full day to slay 12 of them. This is all irrelevant.


Oh Jesus Christ, you have reached a level of reaching I didn't think was possible on this forum. At the VERY BEST, Ajunta Pall alluded to something that COULD have described the Star Forge. There is NO proof or any kind of deduction stating that they had access to it, or even knew where it was. Come on Nai, I'm starting to get the feeling that this is all just a sarcastic troll, in which case, kudos. If not, please stop doing drugs.


The numbers of the sith empire don't even begin to compare to the numbers of the entire Vong, and that's before we get into the discussion of the Vong being technologically superior in every aspect.




::::Giant Facepalm::::

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
All of which is irrelevant against superior numbers, superior technology, and a foe that can't be sensed through the force.


So the Vong are outnumbering the population of more than a hundred planets? I'd love to see your proof for that. Technology? See below. They can't be sensed? How the hell does that matter? Are they invisible, too?



They are pretty much limitless, if you take the illusions into consideration which are "turned into reality" as the narrator in the comics happily proclaims. So the Sith do pretty much have unlimited ground forces, unless somebody finds the meditation sphere hidden somewhere in the Galaxy and attacks it.



But of course Kreia is biased. She didn't spend a nice portion of her life with studying Sith lore at illustrious places like Malachor V. Studies that enabled her to wipe three Jedi Masters from existance with a mere handmovement. Do you see any link there?

And he needed a day to slay more than a dozen of Jedi? Name one Sith with a kill count in a similar timespan that even comes close. Anakin needed a legion of Clone Troopers to archive something similar and I bet Pall didn't face younglings...



Quite funny that somebody who comes up with totally unmotivated antagonizing calls me troll. That aside:

- Pall speaks about their "greatest secret" that is "burried on this world (Korriban)" when the only important thing we see burried is the Star Map
- said Star Map is located in the tomp of the last Dark Lord. Why would they hide it there (beyond some nice traps) if it wasn't anything specials
- what other "old place" should Pall refer to that was "the source of our (the Sith Lords) power"? We know that they were placed into a ship and shot directly to Korriban after the Battle of Corbos. So that "old place" was reached from Korriban.

That aside: Do you really want to suggest that the Sith didn't develop the idea to follow the Star Map that they had right in front of them for almost 2,000 years, especially when the must have had plenty of information about the Infinite Empire, given that Adas was kind enough to leave his holocron around? May I also point out that each of the Star Maps pointed straigth to Lehon before the Infinite Empire remotely sabotaged them, which means that every damn individual being alive on one of the planets with a Star Map knew the location of Lehon and, therefor, the Star Forge - including the original Sith people on Korriban.

And maybe it's also coincidence, that the Star Forge, even at times of Revan and Malak, produces Derriphan-class battleships (mentioned in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide), which were the spine of the Ancient Sith navy. Did Revan and Malak fed the Star Forge with 2000 year old plans to create outdated ships? Makes much sense. That, of course, is still ignoring the question what other "old place" that is the source of the Ancient Siths power Ajunta Pall could possible refer to. But it's nice to know that I am reaching...



First: Give me some numbers for the forces of the Sith and Vong. In short: Prove up or shut up. We're dealing with entire races in both cases, but the Vong didn't have hundreds of worlds to prosper on for about 2,000 years - had they?

Second: Stop ignoring that Sadow managed to summon "real" armies out of nothing on three seperated planets simultaneously making the Sith forces appear "innumerable" (according to Odan-Urr).

Thirdly: Technologically superior in every aspect? I must have missed the weapons capable of triggering supernovas in the Vong's arsenal. I also missed those nice amulets they use as ranged weapons, capable of creating room sized blasts and tearing entire buildings down. Did it ever occur to you, that Naga Sadow had a reason to label the blaster he took from the Deragons a "primitive weapon"?

Lastly: Instead of using a red-herring to draw attention away from the original point, you could at least attempt to counter it. Vong fleet in system X, Sith ship flies in and core of star comes flying at the Vong, Vong go down hard. Anything to contradict that idea?



Thanks for ignoring the only point that was adressed at you. And now you can calm down. I didn't want to provoke you by pointing out your severe lack of knowledge once again. If you want to add anything to the debate, do it. Otherwise shut up. I'm not in the mood to deal with your pointless rants.

I'm sorry Nai, I got carried away by your inability to use actual facts in this debate. I realize that you're thrilled with Germany in the World Cup but that doesn't give you a pass to be totally clueless.


Edit: I wanted to humor myself by responding to some of your hilarious post. I didn't want to respond to the whole post because I know how quick and relentless you are with your House-esque sarcasm.


Great. So you're resting the entire Sith Empire's victory on one ability that the Vong will pick up on eventually, completely ignoring that for it to work against the Vong and NOT the Sith, Sadow's forces would have to place a considerable distance between himself and the supernova. But then we can include the numerous abilities the Vong possess that will devastate the Sith Empire. However, that would be too obvious.


I'm sure you know what a Non Sequitur is Nai, because how you got that conclusion is beyond and rational human being. Again, their "lolz supernova" plan is about ALL they have going for them, and that's assuming they have distance on their side. Even then, the sheer numbers of the Vong are completely staggering. Yea, I glanced over your really humorous "numbers" argument, completely ignoring the fact that they possessed a limited number of ships. I think I honestly stopped when you claimed the Sith Empire were in the possession of the Star Forge.



I'm going to take all the Vong have to offer in ground battle over the Massassi anyday.


Also, this reminded me of lightsnake. When arguing a point where you have to reach to come to a conclusion, you start playing psychologist, asking me questions. I enjoy our debates Nai, I think you need to stop drinking.

***ownage this, sarcasm that, you got pwned, etc***

I was going to bring up Nai's point about Revan manufacturing Derriphan-class battleships via the Star Forge, meaning they couldn't have been technologically outdated even though the ships' design were more than a thousand years old. It took six Republic cruisers to destroy one of them, they were so heavily armored.

I can't decide whether Nai's reaching or not regarding the Ancient Sith having access to the Star Forge. If not, that seals the victory for Sadow's Empire...

Makes one wonder when, despite the Ancient Sith Empire's total and insurmountable uberness, populated with a hundred planets worth of Force-sensitive warriors, they managed to be defeated by the Old Republic and a numerically inferior Jedi Order. Makes you wonder how the Vong have any chance at all.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Makes one wonder when, despite the Ancient Sith Empire's total and insurmountable uberness, populated with a hundred planets worth of Force-sensitive warriors, they managed to be defeated by the Old Republic and a numerically inferior Jedi Order. Makes you wonder how the Vong have any chance at all.



Not just any Jedi Order. A Jedi Order consisting of 3-4 Jedi and a neophyte. I mean with all of those unlimited ships, the graphics in FOTSE must have been shitty enough to be misleading. Once the illusions disappeared, there were hardly enough ships to be considered an "armada". But then again, why would you want to have unlimited ships if you can keep up the illusion of having unlimited ships?

Edit: Then again, it's entirely conceivable that it was Kressh that possessed all those "unlimited" ships and just wouldn't give them to Sadow

Originally posted by Enyalus
I was going to bring up Nai's point about Revan manufacturing Derriphan-class battleships via the Star Forge, meaning they couldn't have been technologically outdated even though the ships' design were more than a thousand years old. It took six Republic cruisers to destroy one of them, they were so heavily armored.

I can't decide whether Nai's reaching or not regarding the Ancient Sith having access to the Star Forge. If not, that seals the victory for Sadow's Empire... Maybe.

There's nothing conclusive about the Sith's ownership of the Star Forge beyond Pall's cryptic words. He could just have easily been referring to the Star Map itself and the Dark Side aura surrounding it (like that of the Star Forge). I'd also like to hear the exact quote that states that Revan and Malak found the Derriphan plans in the Star Forge or on Lehon.

The Derriphan ships themselves seem rather unimpressive when compared to Imperial+ era capital ships: It's 215 meters long, no shields, and boasts an impressive six "autolasers". Autolasers, according to Wookiee: "As with modern blaster cannons, the autoblaster produced a high-intensity particle beam that was propelled from the barrel at a target. However, unlike its modern equivalents, the autoblaster fired a salvo of wild bolts, powerful but not extremely accurate."

I'm far from impressed with that ship when compared to say, a Dreadnought-class heavy cruiser.

I'm far more impressed with the abilities and firepower of the Vong ships.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm sorry Nai, I got carried away by your inability to use actual facts in this debate. I realize that you're thrilled with Germany in the World Cup but that doesn't give you a pass to be totally clueless.


I realize that you must be sad, because your boys went home. That doesn't give you a pass to be totally clueless.



Hello, Gideon. It's nice that you made a sock to talk to yourself. A little bit disappointing how you still can't win debates and still attempt to point to my "House-esque" sarcasm in order to gloss over that fact.



I'm kind of astonished how you can quote what I've written down just to ignore it with your comment entirely. Sadow used the weapon twice while remaining in close proximity to his target. Facts > your suggestion that they need to be "far away".

Note also that I wrote "suicide attack". I thought the word "suicide" could give you a hint. Sacrificing one ship to take out an entire fleet is not exactly a great loss.

And the Vong are going to do what against the Ancient Sith? Toss moons around against opponents that can toss the cores of stars around. You maybe want to think about that scenario again...



I'm sure you know what "glossing over inability to form an argument" means, DS, as you are an master of the art. Some facts for you:

- the Baanu Miir worldship held a total of 12,000 Vong. You would need 500,000 of them to contain the population of the Earth (one planet)
- even taking the Baanu Rass as example, one of the largest worldship, it held about the population of the first Death Star, resulting in about 1 million Vong. You'd still need 6000 of that ships to fit the population of one planet in.

So unless you're suggesting that the Vong's navy actually dwarved that of the Galactic Empire, which would be hilarious, I suppose you're pretty much wrong.



I'm afraid. Uttering your personal opinion doesn't win debates. The Sith forces have Massassi Warriors, Priests, Sith Lords, elite warbots, slayer droids, sentries, Chrysalide, Sith war behemoths, Sith warbirds, Sith war rhinos, Sith war mountaineers, Sith war worms, and Silooth, coupled with illusions. The Vong have...




I'm still not reaching, DS. And instead of your pitty attempts to insult me, you could try to come up with a single argument. Or counter one of mine. It's not funny to look at your posts and the first picture popping up in my mind is a turtle that lies on his shell, feets in the air, helpless. That isn't funny, man. It makes me sad.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Makes one wonder when, despite the Ancient Sith Empire's total and insurmountable uberness, populated with a hundred planets worth of Force-sensitive warriors, they managed to be defeated by the Old Republic and a numerically inferior Jedi Order. Makes you wonder how the Vong have any chance at all.



You mean just like the Galactic Empire wasn't able to overcome the Rebellion after the Emperor died, despite of having hundred or even thousand times more ships and possibly billions of troops?

The Ancient Sith Empire pretty much saw the loss of its entire governing body during the Great Hyperspace War. Most of Sadow's followers died in battle or were killed in the fleet battle back in Sith space. That faith was shared by Kressh and the Sith Lords loyal to him. That was the Ancient Sith Empire's "Battle of Endor" if you will...

And we don't know how the Jedi defeated the Sith. If they used the tactics they applied against Exar Kun (or the Sith used those that Kun himself did apply), I don't find it surprising that the Sith were taken down almost entirely...

The great thing about Star Wars is that the pithy ground forces that universe seems to boast make up for it in their space capabilities. For the Vong especially. They have no home planets to be secured for themselves. The Sith meantime have ONE HUNDRED worlds to defend. It's lucky for them that Sith illusions would terrify the Vong to the extent that they would refrain from bombarding the world from space. Besides, there's no way the Vong could obliterate the surface of ONE HUNDRED planets.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You mean just like the Galactic Empire wasn't able to overcome the Rebellion after the Emperor died, despite of having hundred or even thousand times more ships and possibly billions of troops?I didn't know that the galactic Empire was involved here.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Ancient Sith Empire pretty much saw the loss of its entire governing body during the Great Hyperspace War. Most of Sadow's followers died in battle or were killed in the fleet battle back in Sith space. That faith was shared by Kressh and the Sith Lords loyal to him. That was the Ancient Sith Empire's "Battle of Endor" if you will... And that will surely not happen this time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And we don't know how the Jedi defeated the Sith. If they used the tactics they applied against Exar Kun (or the Sith used those that Kun himself did apply), I don't find it surprising that the Sith were taken down almost entirely... The Great Hyperspace War is full of subjective opinion and ambiguity you say?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The great thing about Star Wars is that the pithy ground forces that universe seems to boast make up for it in their space capabilities. For the Vong especially. They have no home planets to be secured for themselves. The Sith meantime have ONE HUNDRED worlds to defend. It's lucky for them that Sith illusions would terrify the Vong to the extent that they would refrain from bombarding the world from space. Besides, there's no way the Vong could obliterate the surface of ONE HUNDRED planets.

No. They have thousands of worldships flying their entire species through space. There is no way that the core of a star being tossed at them would have any considerable effect here, just like flying straight through a supernova.

And the Sith are known to be extreme carebears, that would defend each and every planet even if they had to sacrifice a tactical advantage. It's not that Naga Sadow "would sacrifice an entire star-system in order to ensure his own safety", as the narrator in the Fall of the Sith Empire seems to suggest.

Also the illusions can't be used to reproduce ships, as it just happens when the Sith attack the three worlds...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I didn't know that the galactic Empire was involved here.

And that will surely not happen this time.

The Great Hyperspace War is full of subjective opinion and ambiguity you say?

I'm not sure if there's a point responding to Nai anymore. He'll type up anything, claim "lolz its an argument", and continue responding with half assed insults and poor attempts at sarcasm.

Oh and Nai, I'm not sad that my "boys" went home. Anything other than a First or Second Round for the Americans would be wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I didn't know that the galactic Empire was involved here.


I didn't know that this was an answer to what I've written. You wondered how that could have happened - I introduced a greater military force with less powerful enemies who lost in a similar fashion. I don't see people doubting the military strength of the Galactic Empire.



Of course: One of the Sith Lord discovers that he still loves one of the Vong's world ship, because he grew up there. And of course, he will be sad of losing his Vong-sister because of his actions. As a result, seeking redemption, he will first destroy the Meditation Sphere(s) of the Sith Empire and then lead the enemy forces straigth into the heart of the Sith Empire...



No. What I say is that one shouldn't confuse 800 years of Sith hunting with "one battle".

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. They have thousands of worldships flying their entire species through space. There is no way that the core of a star being tossed at them would have any considerable effect here, just like flying straight through a supernova.

And the Sith are known to be extreme carebears, that would defend each and every planet even if they had to sacrifice a tactical advantage. It's not that Naga Sadow "would sacrifice an entire star-system in order to ensure his own safety", as the narrator in the Fall of the Sith Empire seems to suggest.

Also the illusions can't be used to reproduce ships, as it just happens when the Sith attack the three worlds... Out of curiosity (as I've never read the comics), why didn't Naga Sadow blow up every fleet he encountered via supernovae? Surely he wasn't some sort of space environmentalist.

And considering how this is the entire Yuuzhan Vong armada descending on only one hundred worlds (home and infrastructure of the Sith Empire), how many supernovas and obliterated Sith planets is it gonna take for him to declare victory?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Out of curiosity (as I've never read the comics), why didn't Naga Sadow blow up every fleet he encountered via supernovae? Surely he wasn't some sort of space environmentalist.

And considering how this is the entire Yuuzhan Vong armada descending on only one hundred worlds (home and infrastructure of the Sith Empire), how many supernovas and obliterated Sith planets is it gonna take for him to declare victory?

You have a few hundred sith ships at best. And Naga Sadow didn't blow up every fleet he encountered because he was able to do his "supernova" only once, and he took a lot of his own ships down as he fled, making the strategy rather useless. You also have a large number of sith lords who have shown us absolutely nothing, so I'm still trying to figure out which of these "strategies" are going to work against the Vong. We can rule out force related feats as we haven't seen the sith lords of that time perform anything spectacular and they wouldn't be able to sense the Vong. We can rule out "lolz Supernova!" because that would work only under a very special circumstance. We can rule out the "unlimited"(LOL) number of ships in the sith empire, seeing as how that doesn't even come close to the true number(a few hundred), and we can rule out "LOLZ starforge" because there's no evidence of that.



Similar fashion? lol.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't know that this was an answer to what I've written. You wondered how that could have happened - I introduced a greater military force with less powerful enemies who lost in a similar fashion. I don't see people doubting the military strength of the Galactic Empire. For good reason. But I am doubting the military capabilities of the Ancient Sith Empire as they attempt to repulse a numerically and technologically superior enemy rushing at their little slice of galactic heaven that their entire species is unable to see with the ethereal energy field they've become accustomed to over 1,700 years.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course: One of the Sith Lord discovers that he still loves one of the Vong's world ship, because he grew up there. And of course, he will be sad of losing his Vong-sister because of his actions. As a result, seeking redemption, he will first destroy the Meditation Sphere(s) of the Sith Empire and then lead the enemy forces straigth into the heart of the Sith Empire...See? Not so hard to PIS all over decent stories.



Originally posted by Borbarad
No. What I say is that one shouldn't confuse 800 years of Sith hunting with "one battle". I have no idea what Sith hunting refers to, but I'll take your word that it's significant.

Maybe the Sith didn't want to use the Star Forge and thought it was too dangerous?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Out of curiosity (as I've never read the comics), why didn't Naga Sadow blow up every fleet he encountered via supernovae? Surely he wasn't some sort of space environmentalist.

Erm...ignoring DS, who has again no idea what he's talking about: Sadow did pretty much blow any fleet up that he encountered. When his Meditation Sphere was attacked, he set the star it was orbiting (Primus Goluund) up to go supernova, in order to destroy the Meditation Sphere and the Republic Forces that were on the way to it.

The Republic forces just narrowly escaped that trap and followed Sadow. The latter had reached the Sith Empire by now and was confronted with Kressh's fleet and pretty much ran through it. Then he detonated pretty much all ships engaging in said space battle, in order to stop the Republic Forces from pursuing him.

A few ships made it through the bareer and again Sadow used his ship to destroy the Republic forces that had followed him, despite of his ship being already damaged (all weapon systems were out of order). The narrator of the Fall of the Sith Empire comic comments on this by saying that Sadow would even sacrifice a star-system in order to escape.

And yup. He blew his own ships up. I wonder how that happened, provided that only his own ship was left after the confrontation with Kressh's forces. DS making stuff up is one of the most precious things on the forum...



I didn't know that you were the thread-starter, who is the only one to specify details for this fight. If you just toss all Vong ships against all Sith ships, the Sith win by virtue of sacrificing one ship and blow the entire battlefield apart. If the Vong invade Sith space, the same can happen in the first or second battle they fight...



Again: Numerically superiority? That "argument" has already been debunked, unless you want to tell me that the Vong fleet dwarved that of the Galactic Empire. And even if one should by that: as long as Sadow is capable to work in his meditation sphere, the Sith do have infinite numbers because Sadow can summon "real" warriors, beasts and fleets...

Technically superior? By what standards? As far as bio-engineering and nano-technology are concerned, Sith Alchemy is still far ahead of anything else in the Star Wars Galaxy. The force aided weaponary of the Sith is completely ahead of the PT era at least, with the Dark Reaper alone having been stated to be powerful enough to bring forth the end of the Republic - almost 5,000 years after it was built. And you do realize that many of the Vong ships are more than a 1000 years old and even incapable of faster-than-light travel? I'm just asking...

And I still don't get why you people bring the "they can't sense the Vong" to the table again and again. Would that protect the Vong from being detected by regular scanning technology? Does it render them invisible? Does it help them when they are attacked with telekinesis? Does it help them at all?



The Sith Empire was downed by the betrayal of a single person. Without that they would have won the Great Hyperspace War, considering they were about to win on all planets before Sadow's illusions vanished - and that while fighting with only 50 % of the Empire's forces at best. This is going to happen again how exactly?



The period of time that the Jedi needed to "drive the Sith to extinction". Given that the last active Sith sorceress is killed on Ambria shortly before or after the Great Droid Revolution, the Jedi needed almost one entire millenium to deal with the Sith. And even with that time span to reach their goal, they still failed, given that the Sith Emperor (ToR) was a Sith that escaped from the Ancient Empire.

And since I did miss it before:



How so? Pall talks about an "old place" that was "the source of our (the Sith Lords) power". This can't be a reference to the Star Map. Yet he tells Revan that this "secret is burried" on Korriban. The only important thing burried is the Star Map - the "old place" it shows the way to is the Star Forge.

I really don't get how you people call that allusions "vague", given that there simply isn't any other possibility to interprete it, when you listen to everything Pall has to say...



Unless Sadow's ship is some modified version, each of this ships can be turned into a "starkiller" provided a halfway decent force user is on board.

@DS:


Yes. Similar fashion.
Both Empire's went into a battle that the were about to win, and lost because their respective leaders were betrayed (Sidious by Vader, Sadow by Gav) and killed (Sidious, Vader / Kressh, most Ancient Sith Lords) or fled (Sadow, Sith Emperor). In both cases almost the entire governing body was wiped out an the result was chaos. That's the ill-effect of Imperial Rule: with just a few in command, the system collapses, when those few are removed.

Just like with the later Galactic Empire, quite a lot of troops / ships of the Ancient Sith Empire simply fled from the heart of the Empire to remote locations. The Lost Tribe of the Sith, the Sith Emperor with his armada (who became a threat for the Republic later), Sith that fled to Vjun and of course Naga Sadow with his remaining forces.

Borbarad:

Are you serious? I suppose that you're entitled to your own opinion, but do you seriously think that the sith empire can defeat a civilization thousands of years ahead of them technologically and far outnumbering them (yes, they do, the YV were capable of conquering and holding a large portion of the galaxy for an extended amount of time while defending against GA, Imperial Remanant, NJO, etc. forces)?

Valid ABC logical argument:

Sith Empire lost to Old Republic thousands of years before the Clone Wars. CW Republic > Pre CW Republic. GA > CW Republic due to multiple quotes from experienced military commanders calling CW ships extremely outdated. It also took the combined forces of the GA, the NJO, the Imperial Remnant and pretty much the entire galaxy to defeat the YV.

Therefore:

YV > GA > CW Republic > Pre CW Republic > Naga Sadow's Sith Empire

Therefore:

YV > Naga Sadow's Sith Empire


Advantages that the YV have over Naga Sadow's Sith Empire:

-Greater stability (although not 100% united, the YV government is better off than Naga Sadow's sith Empire's government, which had numerous infightings and rivarlies, just like pretty much any sith Empire in history).
-Several thousand years of technological superiority over Naga Sadow's sith Empire. By the time of the YV invasion there were no known specific ships, vehicles, weapons, etc. from Naga Sadow's time that were still in use by major galactic armies (the types of weapons and ships were still similar, but not the exact weapons and ships). YV invasion era had shields on starfighters and other ships, planet busting superweapons, etc.
-Numerical superiority. Tens of thousands of ships and enough forces to simutaneously take on the galaxies major galactic powers and almost conquer the galaxy.
-Overall better quality troops. A YV warrior was said to be superior to New Republic troops by a 2 to 1 margin. New Republic troops are likely equal to or superior to common troops of the sith Empire due to technological and likely tactical advancements. YV troops are far more likely to fight to the death than troops of the sith Empire; the latter were stated to have poor morale, while the former would almost always fight to the death.
-More resources. YV empire had access to a larger Empire and more important planets.
-The YV can't be sensed or, by most sources, affected by the Force. This will baffle the sith.

I'm not sure if Nai has even read the FOTSE comics, or if he's just making things up as usual, to help his argument. I fail to see how Sadow "pretty much blew up any fleet he encountered", when he only tried the technique once and destroyed his own ships in the process, and very few ships of the republic. But then again Nai, I don't claim that you live in reality, and neither do you.


Nai once again proving that he hasn't actually read the FOTSE comics. The "trap" was initiated after he killed Kressh, and he used the Supernova incident to escape to Yavin IV. Try again.


Wonderful! And totally irrelevant.


Pot.Kettle.Black. Or it would be if I was the one making things up, rather than you. As usual, too easy Nai.

Hmmm after further review, it appears Sadow triggered the supernova to launch back to the sith empire. It didn't appear to do much against the Republic, who followed him back to the Sith Empire. So the 1 time he uses his superweapon, it yields little results, big surprise. I was wrong about the timeline though.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Are you serious? I suppose that you're entitled to your own opinion, but do you seriously think that the sith empire can defeat a civilization thousands of years ahead of them technologically and far outnumbering them (yes, they do, the YV were capable of conquering and holding a large portion of the galaxy for an extended amount of time while defending against GA, Imperial Remanant, NJO, etc. forces)?

First: Thousand of years ahead of them? You do realize that technical development is different when you have a look at different governing bodies, correct? Sith ships from 5,000 years ago, were still far superior to Republic ships that were constructed 1500 years later. If you look into the "superweapon" category, they were even ahead of the Galatic Empire (blowing up star systems). So how do you know how they compare to the Vong in terms of technology? Especially when anything the Vong had is based upon bio-engineering, an art that the Ancient Sith (Alchemy) did excel in...

Second: I wonder if you did actually read the NJO books. The Vong were never "controlling" or "holding" a large portion of the Galaxy. They destroyed a large portion of the Galaxy, killing about one third of all beings inhabiting it, which doesn't say much about their actual numbers, provided they used terraforming on planets and did destroy others on their way.

To be a little bit sarcastic here: during the Second Battle of Coruscant, their ground forces were defeated by - essentially - three Jedi. And that were thousands of them. I wonder what 20 Sith Lords with their usual gimmics would have done there...



Firstly: There is nothing like a "valid ABC argument", so erase that thought from your mind instantly.

Secondly: You're starting with a wrong premise. The Sith Empire didn't lose to the Old Republic because the Republic was more powerful. The lost because they were betrayed with the betrayal leading to losing a great part of their troops. You already fail here.

Thirdly: As I already said: Even the KotoR era ships were inferior to the Sith Empire counterparts. This is pretty much obvious, given that Revan did almost only use ships that were based on a (at his time) 1,500 year old design and conquered much of the Galaxy with it.

Lastly: If the Vong were superior to the GA, they would have won the war and would now be dominating the SW Galaxy. Obviously, that isn't the case...




The only "rivaleries" between Sadow and Kressh was there, because they had different ideas about leading the Empire. Still: The Sith Empire just has two factions with one leader. The YV have how many family tribes that are busy with infighting? That aside: You do realize that having a single leader can be a weakness, provided that, when Shimra was killed, the YVs believed that their gods had turned away from them and did surrender?



Firstly: It would only be 5,000 years.

Secondly: This number still doesn't make any sense, because we don't have a uniform distribution of technological development throughout the Galaxy, much less the universe and even less when force-enhanced technology is taken into consideration.

Thirdly: Wow. That recent armies didn't use the same ships means what know? I didn't know that any army in the Galaxy had access to a species of force sensitve warriors, capable of navigating the Sith ships (which is done by using the Dark Side of the force). That aside from the fact that the only "production facility" for those ships was destroyed more than 3000 years in the past. Couple that with the fact that technical development doesn't seem to advance that much in the SW universe (they still use the same weapon types they have utilized 5000 years in the past) and you might come to the conclusion that this point is mood.

And gosh. The Sith head sun system destroying superweapons in their fleet and unstoppable ground forces with the Dark Reaper. Point is mood.



Oh my f*cking god.

a) Give me actual numbers for the size of the Vong fleet (quotes from the books) or shut up with the "numerical superiority".

b) Go and read the books. Seriously. In Destiny's Way you have one of the few occassions when the Vong engage in a "conventional" fleet battle (Battle of Ebaq 9). The result being that the New Republic alone wipes a nice portion of their invasion fleet out. Also they didn't attack the Imperial Remnant before that point in time, which kind of contradicts the idea that they did "simultaneously" took on the galactic powers.

Then consider this:
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/FotSE/fleet.jpg

Sky above Coruscant. "Tens of thousands of ships" of the Sith Empire coming in. Notice that this is just one of three planets being invaded silmultaneously by the Sith forces.





Excuse me. You did realize that every single soldier of the Sith Empire is a force sensitive Dark Side user? I'm just asking. Massassi are - essentially - warriors that have been altered by Sith Alchemy to be faster / stronger than regular humans already, and have the additonal advantage of being able to use the force to aid them in combat. Heck. Take a look at the Massassi or the Sith Lords in the comics. Those are muscle packed beasts - Sadow's mutated once are more than a head taller than Exar Kun.



Making things up much?

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/FotSE/massassi.jpg

What's that? Odan-Urr stating that it seems impossible to stop the single-minded fury of the Massassi, even when using Battle Meditation? Yup. Those Massassi due have a "poor morale". ROFL.



The YV have spend the past millenia traveling through the void of space. Did you miss that? And a "larger Empire"? Did you also miss that they left their original Galaxy because they had destroyed a large portion of it and used all resource there during this war...?



In most sources, they are affected by force lightning and other Dark Sider powers rather nicely, so the Sith wouldn't be as baffled as the Jedi were. If you want to take the fact into consideration, that the Sith were aware of a technique to seal once presence in the force off, they might be even less baffled.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure if Nai has even read the FOTSE comics, or if he's just making things up as usual, to help his argument. I fail to see how Sadow "pretty much blew up any fleet he encountered", when he only tried the technique once and destroyed his own ships in the process, and very few ships of the republic. But then again Nai, I don't claim that you live in reality, and neither do you.


Nai once again proving that he hasn't actually read the FOTSE comics. The "trap" was initiated after he killed Kressh, and he used the Supernova incident to escape to Yavin IV. Try again.

Blah, blah and blah, DS.

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/FotSE/warning.jpg

This is the first time that Sadow uses the weapon in the comics. He escapes with the remains of his fleets (so he doesn't "destroy his own ship" as you proclaimed) and the Republic fleet does just survive that action because of being warned by Gav. If that hadn't happened, the Republic forces would have been destroyed.

So...who didn't read the comics? Oh. Thanks, DS for demonstrating your absolute lack of knowledge once again. What you were - probably - thinking about (provided that you're using your brain at all) was this here:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/FotSE/boom.jpg

Woopie.
After being betrayed twice by Gav, with the first betrayal resulting in the lost of a lot of his forces and the second betrayal causing the survival of his enemies, Sadow finds himself confronted with Kressh (read: the other half of the Sith Empire's forces). He still manages to take them out. Then he lets his Massassi assassinate the other Sith Lords and the picture above shows what happens next.

Notice that this was an action of last resort because his ships weapon systems were out of order after he fought Kressh. He still blew up the ships pursuing him, again losing a total of zero ships.

And just to emphasize this again: Without Gav's first betrayal, Sadow would have won the war - using unlimited illusional troops and ships. Without the warning that Gav gave to the Republic, Sadow would have wiped out the entire Tetan fleet pursuing him - again "winning" so to say. And without the final betrayal of Kressh and the other Sith Lords, he could still have done it after arriving back in the Sith Empire.



Right. As usual, too easy, DS. And now go back into your cave and shut up. By the way: Stop using Gideon's trademark phrases. It makes you look even less intelligent than you actually are, which is quite an archivement, provided that you make Forrest Gump look like a rocket scientist.

Wow, I wonder how many days Nai spent thinking up his insecure rants. To be honest though, I think everybody stopped paying attention after "The Old Sith Empire will own the Vong" and "The Sith Empire had the Star Forge!!" Thanks for the laugh Nai, we desperately needed a forum clown now that Nebaris left.

***NO U!!!*** There, I've already predicted your response to save you the trouble from posting again.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wow, I wonder how many days Nai spent thinking up his insecure rants. To be honest though, I think everybody stopped paying attention after "The Old Sith Empire will own the Vong" and "The Sith Empire had the Star Forge!!" Thanks for the laugh Nai, we desperately needed a forum clown now that Nebaris left.

***NO U!!!*** There, I've already predicted your response to save you the trouble from posting again.

You realize DS, that I have crushed your objection and nothing of your "argument" remains, correct? I take your pointless attempt to insult me as concession that you were wrong - as usual.

And we need a forum clown now that Nebaris left? You are still here, aren't you? So know your role and keep acting according to it. You're doing a pretty fine job there. *pats DS on the head*

Originally posted by Borbarad
You realize DS, that I have crushed your objection and nothing of your "argument" remains, correct? I take your pointless attempt to insult me as concession that you were wrong - as usual.

And we need a forum clown now that Nebaris left? You are still here, aren't you? So know your role and keep acting according to it. You're doing a pretty fine job there. *pats DS on the head*

Not really Nai, I think I'm not the only one having a fun time with your "I made an argument therefore its valid so I'm going to be sarcastic in order to hide my insecurities" routine. It's definitely a winner

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Not really Nai, I think I'm not the only one having a fun time with your "I made an argument therefore its valid so I'm going to be sarcastic in order to hide my insecurities" routine. It's definitely a winner

Oh please, DS.

You have lost the debate. Admit it, keep arguing or stop posting.

Don't attempt to gloss over the fact. Be a man just once in your pathetic life. I know you can do it. Maybe...

It's amazing how you both talk shit here and yet all that goes out the windiw during your futball discussion in the battlebar.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's amazing how you both talk shit here and yet all that goes out the windiw during your futball discussion in the battlebar.

I don't think that either of us takes those verbal jabs seriously, so why should we continue them in all threads here. And why should anybody be anti-social in a social thread?

Why not? It's the internet!

snirk-

There's really not much to admit. The debate ended when you made a bunch of shit up(the sith have the star forge), then claimed they'd destroy the Vong. It became humor after all that.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's really not much to admit. The debate ended when you made a bunch of shit up(the sith have the star forge), then claimed they'd destroy the Vong. It became humor after all that.

You realize, DS, that I didn't make shit up, but merely suggested that the "old place" that is "the source of the Sith Lords power", as Pall describes it, is the Star Forge. Your proof to the contrary is...where exactly? Right. It doesn't exist. You came in and screamed: "No Nai. That can't possible be right!" and that's it. Which is especially nice, provided that you did accuse me of ipsedixitism.

Not that it even matters. Sadow's illusions alone ensure that the Sith are fighting with infinite numbers in space and on the ground. Another point that was ignored by yourself and anybody else attempting to argue me. The only way for the Vong to win is to locate the meditation sphere and destroy it. I wonder how high the chances are, that the Vong will accidentally stumble upon one single spaceship hidden somewhere in the SW Galaxy. I'd say those chances are pretty low, but maybe you want to try and challenge mathematical probability after having failed so hard with your attempt to challenge the facts.

Oh. I know that you will reply with "Blah Blah Sarcasm. Blah Blah House-fan. Blah Blah You made shit up. Blah Blah you are so funny.". Any objective observer will still see how hard you failed with your attempt to bring forth an argument. The story of your life, right?

Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to convince yourself. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of long, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to convince yourself. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of long, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!

Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to gloss over the fact that you've lost. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see, that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of short, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!

Not as great as pointing out your absolute lack of knowledge, your inability to debate and the fact that you're a nobody, a nothing and a peon once again. But maybe you just "got the timeline wrong" again and confuse this debate with one you had with a 5-year-old last week that you almost won. ^^

Originally posted by Borbarad
Good god, it's hilarious how hard you're trying to gloss over the fact that you've lost. Here let me try. "Any objective observer will see, that you're out of your mind and that you've tried to cover it up with a bunch of short, insignificant posts." Wow, that felt great!

Not as great as pointing out your absolute lack of knowledge, your inability to debate and the fact that you're a nobody, a nothing and a peon once again. But maybe you just "got the timeline wrong" again and confuse this debate with one you had with a 5-year-old last week that you almost won. ^^

I'm not sure what you were "pointing out". I know you have low self esteem so you completely ignored the post where I pointed out my mistake after going over the comics again. Instead you elected to post exactly what I said previously, and then claim that you somehow proved me wrong or made any valid points in the argument. That's ok Nai though, you lost me at "the Sith have the Star Forge."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure what you were "pointing out". I know you have low self esteem so you completely ignored the post where I pointed out my mistake after going over the comics again.

You're talking about the same post in which you proclaimed that the weapon was ineffective and ignored that the Republic forces were warned by Gav and would have been vaporized? That one?



Funny. I did post what you said previously?
Let me just check it. You, so far, claimed that:

- the Vong a numerically superior - debunked.
- the Vong a technically superior - debunked.
- Sadow's weapon failed - debunked.
- Sadow destroyed a great portion of his own fleet by using his weapon, therefore he can only use it, when his fleet is already away - debunked by factual evidence.

Can you again tell me where your "valid points" were, because I can't see a single one. And don't dare to come up with any excuse for an answer. List your points or shut up.



You realize that you've still not brought anything to the table to proof that idea wrong? You lost me when you hit the reply button in an attempt to argue a Star Wars related topic. BzzzZZZZzzzzZzzz. Please stick to your abilities: Reposting arguments and thoughts that other people came up with. That at least allows you to keep a small bit of your dignity.

Go, Nai Fohl, GoGoGo!

So Nai is basically saying "nonsense nonsense nonsense, prove me wrong!!" Gotcha nai. Unfortunately for you, I don't have to prove the idea "wrong". Your posts defending it were so ludicrous that I decided to ignore the rest of your argument and watch the insecurities pile up.

Borbarad sounds like an ancient sith fanboy that masturbates to the ancient sith comic. Fap fap fap.

Borbarad: I'll respond to your response to my post when I have time, hopefully tomorrow.

Originally posted by Alistair
Borbarad sounds like an ancient sith fanboy that masturbates to the ancient sith comic. Fap fap fap. Sshhh! If you tell them they'll know!

uh oh. i thought him masturbating to justin bieber is bad enuff.

Where did you think Justin Bieber got his talent? Sith Sorcery can do things no one should be able to do.

I have no idea, seriously though there are far more talented people out there who can actually sing without any aid from certain equipment..

Bieber? Damn, didn't know he went straight for the pedophilia...

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So Nai is basically saying "nonsense nonsense nonsense, prove me wrong!!" Gotcha nai. Unfortunately for you, I don't have to prove the idea "wrong".

Excuse me, DS. But if you start your posting spree with a "giant facepalm", some proof to the contrary would be nice, otherwise it appears as if you're talking out of your ass, which you do a lot. Essentially the "Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense" is a nice summary of what you've brought to the table so far, peon.



Right. Let's do a reality check and watch the insecurities piling up, on your side. Oh wait. Your definitely educated about the stuff you're trying to argue and therefore you didn't have to backpeddle with something like:

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I was wrong about the timeline though.

...when Uncle Nai did run through your entire pity "argument", correct? Lmao. Shall we take a look at the other "great" points you handed in.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
All of which is irrelevant against superior numbers, superior technology, and a foe that can't be sensed through the force.

I'll point it out again:
- as long as Sadow keeps up his illusions, the Sith have unlimited fleets and ground forces. That's a fact. Superior numbers on the Vong's side are therefore nonexistant. Not that you did proof their "superior numbers" anywhere? So what? Ipsedixitism and ignoring the facts? Nice start.

- superior technology? Proof up or shut up. You can't? I'm not surprised, provided that the Sith rule the bio-engeneering and superweapon departments. Ipsedixitism and ignoring the facts again.

- can't be sensed through the force? Wow. Entirely irrelevant. I'll take a bag of Red Herrings with that.



Right. Let's check Ajunta Pall's quotes, since he's totally not talking about the Star Forge:

"And so here our old secret is buried and none of us hold it anymore..."
"It...we were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we...had more power than those before us. It...came from elsewhere..."
"Our oldest secret. Only...only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from..."
" You who bristle with the Force...you must find this place...Or...have you? Or did you? Or...will you? Oh, so...many images...I...see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You...you will find the old place, the dark place...and you will regret it."


So what? We're talking about an "old place" where the power of the Sith Lords came from, their "oldest secret" that has something to do with something "buried here" (on Korriban). And finally Pall mentions that Revan has found or will find that old place.

Now tell me again, that Pall is not talking about the Star Forge. A smart debater (e.g. not you) would have pointed to the possibility that he was talking about Malachor V. Yet that is ruled out by Ajunta Pall calling it an "old place" and a place created by somebody that fell to the Dark Side before them. The academy on Malachor V was created by the Ancient Sith themselves. Also there is no hint to Malachor V to be found on Korriban - the only thing "buried" there is the Star Map. Simply put: There is no other possibility than this being an allusion to the Star Forge, especially not in the context of a game that has the search for the Star Forge as main storyline.



Either a lie or lack of knowledge about the source material. Sadow activates the weapon right in front of his remaining fleet and gets away with his fleet. Picture posted here. Argument from ignorance coupled with further ignorance of Sadow's illusions (which are the real decisive point).

So let me check. You either ignored point, argued from ignorance or simply jumped in with an "...because I say so". After I grinded anything you came up with into dust, you're now resorting to the "Uuuuhh. The Ancient Sith didn't have the Star Forge" babble. Red Herring anybody? Not only doesn't it matter if they have the Star Forge or not, because they have infinite fleet and troops anyways - you also failed to provide anything leading to the suggestion that Pall was not talking about the Star Forge. So clearly: Are you trying to poke fun at me based on your inability to debate, your ignorance and the fact that you suck? Tells a lot about your "intelligence".

Originally posted by Alistair
Borbarad sounds like an ancient sith fanboy that masturbates to the ancient sith comic. Fap fap fap.

And you sound like a socking noob, who tries to be opportunistic. Applause. Now stop breathing - you're wasting my fresh air.

Please continue the humorous self reassurance Nai.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Please continue the humorous self reassurance Nai.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You have lost the debate. Admit it, keep arguing or stop posting.


*Yawn*

Originally posted by Borbarad


And you sound like a socking noob, who tries to be opportunistic. Applause. Now stop breathing - you're wasting my fresh air. Unable to comply, you can however continue to drum your dick on a drum set while reading comics about the ancient sith(while masturbating) and waste your life arguing on an internet forum.

You're the one that needs to stop wasting my fresh air because the universal law states for a fact that i am not a loser like you.
Last but not least, please suck my penis and doing so proves you are not a loozer.

I don't know, Nai sure likes to respond a lot to someone who "wastes his time". His arguments and self assurance are amusing though.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't know, Nai sure likes to respond a lot to someone who "wastes his time". His arguments and self assurance are amusing though.

The only amusing thing here, is your inability to answer my arguments and your attempts to gloss over that fact. DS classics.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The only amusing thing here, is your inability to answer my arguments and your attempts to gloss over that fact. DS classics.

There's no point Nai because you have the lightsnake effect. You will argue something to death, regardless of how wrong you are, and just hope the other person will give up. You will then declare yourself a winner and give yourself a pat on the back. I have no wish to argue with you after your "the sith have the star forge" argument. Oh I read it, don't worry. I also laughed when I read it. Now continue doing what you do best, and that's add incredibly quick replies full of sarcasm and humorous insults.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no point Nai because you have the lightsnake effect. You will argue something to death, regardless of how wrong you are, and just hope the other person will give up. You will then declare yourself a winner and give yourself a pat on the back. I have no wish to argue with you after your "the sith have the star forge" argument. Oh I read it, don't worry. I also laughed when I read it. Now continue doing what you do best, and that's add incredibly quick replies full of sarcasm and humorous insults.

Actually you have the Lightsnake effect. You can be proven wrong and will still thing you're right, but unlike Lightsnake, you don't have the class to at least silently leave the debate when it happens. Instead you're trying to gloss over it and attempt to insult your opponent. Nice show.

And the "Sith have the Star Forge" argument came in with my first post, which means you did type any line in this thread down after you already didn't want to argue with me any longer. So I suppose you just hit the reply for the reason to antagonize and troll, which probably means I should report every single post you made here because of trolling, correct?

And since going further into detail with you inability to debate is pointless, this "debate" (with you) is over.

Nai, a better argument would be that the Sith might have that Forge. Although personally its irrelevant as they likely didn't use it for the same reason Revan abandoned it.

It's too dangerous. Period.

Who knows, there might have even been some old records from when King Adas? fought off the Rakata. Also, is it me or does Star Wars seem to be finding techy solutions to things that earlier civilizations had used manipulation of the force to do? Hyperspace, Stars going boom, and a few other things?

Not really, there's absolutely zero evidence indicating the Sith are in possession of the star forge. Even suggesting it would be ludicrous.

Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Nai, a better argument would be that the Sith might have that Forge. Although personally its irrelevant as they likely didn't use it for the same reason Revan abandoned it.

It's too dangerous. Period.

Who knows, there might have even been some old records from when King Adas? fought off the Rakata. Also, is it me or does Star Wars seem to be finding techy solutions to things that earlier civilizations had used manipulation of the force to do? Hyperspace, Stars going boom, and a few other things?

I've already mentioned that it doesn't even matter whether they have access to the Star Forge or not. Sadow's illusions, which are turned into "reality" (meaning that you have real fighters, real monsters and real ships summoned) do already equip the Sith forces with an "innumerable" amount of troops and ships. And the only thing that the Vong could potentially do against that would be to find Sadow's meditation sphere (which can be hidden anywhere in the Galaxy) and destroy that. Otherwise the Sith Empire wins by attrition.

Originally posted by Borbarad
First: Thousand of years ahead of them? You do realize that technical development is different when you have a look at different governing bodies, correct? Sith ships from 5,000 years ago, were still far superior to Republic ships that were constructed 1500 years later. If you look into the "superweapon" category, they were even ahead of the Galatic Empire (blowing up star systems). So how do you know how they compare to the Vong in terms of technology? Especially when anything the Vong had is based upon bio-engineering, an art that the Ancient Sith (Alchemy) did excel in...



You're implying that the sith were more advanced than the Republic by any significant margin, which couldn't have been true because the ancient sith hadn't ever actually won a major war against the Republic.



And in order to have destroyed a large portion of the galaxy, they had to have the numbers to compete with the GA.



Except that one of those Jedi was the most powerful Force user (with the exceptions of beings such as Sekot) in recorded history, using a battle meld with 2 other very powerful Jedi. I'd put my money on NJO Luke, NJO Jaina and NJO Jacen over 20 sith.



9 > 8 > 7



Later in your post you claim that the sith Empire was united and stable.



That had more to do with Revan's strategic and tactical genius.



The Vong wasn't defeated by the GA alone. They were defeated by the GA, Imperial Remnant, New Jedi Order and a pretty much the entire galaxy. The sith Empire lost to the Old Republic, which would get curbstomped by the GA.



Which contradicts your claim that the sith Empire lost due to betrayal.



"only" 5000 years? 5000 years is quite a long time in terms of technological progress.



The sith Empire lost to the Old Republic, which was from several sources technologically inferior to the GA.



Ever heard of the Sun Crusher?



I don't have exact numbers with me, but hundreds of millions of YV were killed in the YV battle of Coruscant alone.



The New Republic is technologically superior to the sith Empire, and later in the war they were indeed simultaneously taking on pretty much the entire galaxy.



They didn't define "ships". It could mean all kinds of ships down to frigates and even starfighters. It could also be hyperbole.




I'm sorry, but can you please clarify? Because it seems hard to believe that EVERY single warrior of the sith Empire was Force sensitive, and even if so if they were actually well trained, because Force sensitives are very rare.



Well they obviously didn't use up all of their resources, because if they really did spend the past millenia traveling through space then they would have to have resouces to sustain themselves, AND they also had the resouces to wage war against the galaxy, which at that point was far more advanced than the sith Empire.



What were the numbers of actual sith in the sith Empire? And could an average warrior in the sith Empire, even if Force sensitive, perform, say, Force lightning?

Oh, and from those pictures it seems as though the warriors of the sith Empire were fighting using melee weapons such as halberds.

I haven't seen a particularly compelling argument for the ancient Sith (but, then again, the only one who seems to be arguing on their behalf is Nai and he's on ignore), but I will point out that the primary reason that the New Republic struggled so heavily with the Vong is because they were heavily undermilitarized compared to a regime like the Empire, which is why Nom Anor and the others were so confident of battling the New Republic as opposed to the Empire. Then again, even in the Unifying Force, despite the presence of armadas from the Galactic Alliance, Imperial Remnant, etc., and the death of Shimmra and Onimi, the war was largely ended through diplomacy rather than the New Republic/Galactic Alliance annihilating the Vong's armies and navies. Nas Choka could have continued the war, which is something that terrified GA command even after Shimrra's death.

(From TUF, CTRL + F "probably", post Battle of Coruscant)

Sovv took a moment to absorb Kre'fey's remarks.

"Should Nas Choka break the cease-fire and advance, are our fleets in a position to prevail?"

"Probably," Kre'fey said, "though at considerable cost."

"Do you wish to press an attack?" Omas asked carefully.

Originally posted by Gideon
I haven't seen a particularly compelling argument for the ancient Sith (but, then again, the only one who seems to be arguing on their behalf is Nai and he's on ignore), but I will point out that the primary reason that the New Republic struggled so heavily with the Vong is because they were heavily undermilitarized compared to a regime like the Empire, which is why Nom Anor and the others were so confident of battling the New Republic as opposed to the Empire. Then again, even in the Unifying Force, despite the presence of armadas from the Galactic Alliance, Imperial Remnant, etc., and the death of Shimmra and Onimi, the war was largely ended through diplomacy rather than the New Republic/Galactic Alliance annihilating the Vong's armies and navies. Nas Choka could have continued the war, which is something that terrified GA command even after Shimrra's death.

In terms of technological capabilities, or even sheer numbers, the sith don't come close. Then again, they DO apparently have the Star Forge

Well, I've never read TotJ, but I could have swore that multiple sources said that the Sith Empire was a lot smaller than the Republic during that time, hence why Ragnos's policy was isolationist.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, I've never read TotJ, but I could have swore that multiple sources said that the Sith Empire was a lot smaller than the Republic during that time, hence why Ragnos's policy was isolationist.

They were. I suggest you take Nai off ignore and read the beauty of his arguments. I found the star forge claim rather priceless.

Someone suggested that the EU should have taken a break with post-Endor work after TUF. Not a bad idea.

Whats TUF?

Other than a libido surviving marriage I mean. Zing!

The Unifying Force novel.

Ah. Doi.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You're implying that the sith were more advanced than the Republic by any significant margin, which couldn't have been true because the ancient sith hadn't ever actually won a major war against the Republic.


Because of betrayal

The Ancient Sith did curbstomp the Republic until the point were Gav did decide to take a shot at Sadow's meditation sphere.
Revan 1,500 years later, still using the same Sith ships that were utilized by the Ancient Sith - he almost conquered the Republic before, again, betrayal ensured that he wasn't capable of finish the job.
And of course we have the Dark Reaper. Mace Windu proclaimed that this device, in the PT - 5,000 years after the Ancient Sith did construct it - would have been enough to cause the end of the Republic. Again the device was only stopped because Ulic Qel-Droma told Anakin how to do it. The Vong would neither have the knowledge nor would they have the force users needed to stop it.



How so? They destroyed said Galaxy centuries in the past and killed a lot of the own troops during that action. It was a civil war among the Vong. Yet with the ability to smash moons through planets or wipe all life on a planet out with terraforming, you also don't need much forces to destroy a nice part of the Galaxy.



And I'd put my money on people who can point their arms in a certain direction and annihilate anything coming their way with room-sized blasts from their amulets.



You realize the difference between "argument" and "stating facts"? I'm just asking...



No. Later in my post I state that the only conflict between Sadow and Kressh was the question wether they should invade the Republic or not. In case of waging war against a common enemy, I doubt that they would spent much time with infighting. And the betrayal happened by a person that wasn't a member of the Sith Empire technically...



It's a fact that the Ancient Sith ships were superior to the Republic ships. It can be seen in KotoR cutscenes and somebody has quoted it in this thread.



Again: The Sith Empire did never lose a direct confrontation. They were about to win all battles, before Sadow was disturbed which caused the "innumerable" illusional troops the Sith waged war with to vanish. That's like proclaiming the Rebel Alliance must be military stronger than the Galactic Empire because they won the war. It doesn't make sense.



How so? Go and read the comics before you start arguing.



Good god. I already explained why this doesn't work. You can't take two civilizations and then proclaim that they develop equal in terms of technology. According to the opening credits, Star Wars happens "a long time ago in a Galaxy far away". Using your standards, we must be ahead of the SW universe in terms of technical development, because they lived "a long time ago". Obviously that isn't the case. Staying within the SW universe: Centerpoint Station was 100,000 years old, as far as I remember, and it was capable of moving planets through Hyperspace. The Star Forge was about 40,000 years old and it still belongs to the most advanced technology seen in the SW universe, before it's destruction and even by standards of the "current" SW universe.

Then we still have the fact that single Sith weapons (Dark Reaper, Sadow's Corsair) were far ahead of their time. The Dark Reaper was pretty much unstoppable, even with PT era technology and the Galactic Empire didn't develop anything close to the destructive abilities of the Corsair's weapon until 10 ABY (Sun Crusher).




See above.



Yes. I've mentioned it multiple times now. It's pretty much the only thing that compares to the weapon of Sadow's ship. Yet, as you may know, Kyp Durron destroyed the Sun Crusher and there weren't any plans left to build a new one.



Yes. Which was pretty much the entirety of their armies and the entirety of their fleets that perished on and above Coruscant. Notice how the GA force with their "inferior technology" managed to "just" lose 5 million soldiers in that battle. Which doesn't really matter, provided that the Sith Empire has "innumerable" forces as long as Sadow keeps the illusions up.



Both wrong.



Again: Sadow could summon tangible illusions again and again and again. So you destroy one ship (if that can even be done) and you have a new one popping up right again.



The Sith were an entire race of force users. So yes. Every single one of them is a force user. The least powerful of them (Massassi) can guide projectile weapons with the force and enhance their own combat abilities (as seen in "Dark Lords of the Sith" for example). And the most powerful of them are the Sith Lords. In between you have more or less powerful force users (Kissai = Priests).



They attacked a Galaxy that was completely undermilitarized, as Gideon has already pointed out and that was led by people not willing to act according to the Imperial standard policy of pretty much leaving nothing but scorched earth behind. They wouldn't blow up a star-system to gain some military advantage - the Sith would.

And the Sith are a society that is based on fighting as much as the Yuuzhan Vong are.



The actual numbers don't matter. The illusions Sadow conjured were said to increase the numbers of the ground troops a thousandfold. The same was apparently the case with the ships. So even if the Sith Empire had just one million Massassi (which would be a very low estimation, provided that Kun had several 10,000s alone 1,000 years later and the fact that the Sith ruled more than a 100 planets), that would be a fighting force of one billion soldiers with illusions already.

And the average Massassi couldn't use force lightning (as far as I know). They were still unnaturally strong fighters that could perform "low" force feats (e.g. use telekinesis to guide projectiles like lanvarok discs).



Those things are called lanvaroks and can actually launch discs that the Massassi can guide using the force. After the disc is fired, the weapon is wielded like a giant axe pretty much. I don't see how this matters, given that the Vong's main weaponary are amphistaffs.

And still wouldn't matter considering the (illusional) numbers of the Sith Empire and the gimmics of the Sith Lords. Just for the fun a little example of the latter:

Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger: A gauntlet crafted by Ludo Kressh for his son, repelling anything from the wearer that doesn't have the consent of the wearer to touch him. It even offers protection against lightsaber strikes and explosions (orbital bombardment). Just imagine a Sith Lord wearing that thing and running through the Vong. He would be pretty much unstoppable.

LOL. You have no idea where this thing is, or if it would even affect users outside of the force. The whereabouts are unknown so I'm not sure why you're just shotgunning here.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
LOL. You have no idea where this thing is, or if it would even affect users outside of the force. The whereabouts are unknown so I'm not sure why you're just shotgunning here.

You're inability to use logical reasoning is astonishing, DS. Provided that the Gauntlet was made by Ludo Kressh for his son, it's obviously in the hands of the Kressh family in times of the Ancient Sith Empire.

That aside: Affect users outside of the force? Huh? What are you talking about. The wearer would be a force user. Or are you asking whether or not it would affect the Vong? It just protects the user from everything, DS. Haazen and Lucien both survived orbital bombardment using the amulet, and I didn't know that explosions or turbo laser bolts where force senstive.

Use your head before hitting the reply button.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You're inability to use logical reasoning is astonishing, DS. Provided that the Gauntlet was made by Ludo Kressh for his son, it's obviously in the hands of the Kressh family in times of the Ancient Sith Empire.
And your ability to reach and constantly embarrass yourself continues to amaze me. If you've read precipice or any of the new literature regarding the Lost Tribe and Kressh, you'd know Kressh was trying to protect his son from everything. Which means it's unlikely Kressh's son was anywhere near the fights, and most likely in some safe and secure location. But I find it humorous that you take into account that the "Sith empire possesses the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger, so they'll win". It's amusing when someone lacks so much self awareness and connection to reality, bravo Nai



It protects the force user by using the force to push others away? Or was it lightning, I can't remember. But it was the force that didn't allow Lucien and Zayne. So explain how that's going to work on someone who exists outside the force? You should really consider not posting anymore, it's just too embarrassing at this point.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And your ability to reach and constantly embarrass yourself continues to amaze me. If you've read precipice or any of the new literature regarding the Lost Tribe and Kressh, you'd know Kressh was trying to protect his son from everything. Which means it's unlikely Kressh's son was anywhere near the fights, and most likely in some safe and secure location. But I find it humorous that you take into account that the "Sith empire possesses the Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger, so they'll win". It's amusing when someone lacks so much self awareness and connection to reality, bravo Nai


Oh. Nice try switching your counter-argument from "We don't know where the gauntlet is!" (LMFAO) to "Oh. Kressh's son is wearing it so it won't be near the fights". Ingenious. Do I have to point out the flaws in that logic:

a) If Kressh could construct such a thing once, I'd guess he could just do it again or simply take the one of his son before entering the fray with the Vong.

b) Even if he leaves his son with the gauntlet, that makes his son invincible, which still means the Yuuzhan Vong can't kill him and hence not defeat the Sith Empire. So we just could imagine the (ridiculous thanks to DS) picture of Kressh Jr. defeating the YV single-handly.

Good job ignoring the rest of the argument by the way. I'd love how you switched from "ignoring the facts completely" to "ignoring the facts you don't like and try to argue anything else" with failing even with the latter. You're certainly a kick-ass debater, DS. ROFL.



Wrong, DS. Stop arguing the facts or, rather than that, make yourself familiar with the facts before attempting to argue at all. Both Haazan and Lucien survived orbital bombardment by wearing / holding the Gauntlet. Lucien walked away with it after being caught in the middle of that here:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091027042312/starwars/images/2/24/ByeByeHaazen.jpg

As I said: Neither explosions nor turbolaser bolts are force senstive - the gauntlet stopped both. Not that it even matters, because Dark Side abilities work just fine against the Vong in most of the sources. And you are the only one that should stop posting, giving that you're either making a fool out of yourself because of your knowledge gaps or just attempt to troll me.

Out of the humor that is your argument and your attempts to make things up as well as reach, I found these two to be the most hilarious. You done yet Nai?

Or perhaps you can provide a relevant picture.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Out of the humor that is your argument and your attempts to make things up as well as reach, I found these two to be the most hilarious. You done yet Nai?

Or perhaps you can provide a relevant picture.

No. The most hilarious thing I've seen so far is this here, tdtd. I'm still totally laughing my ass off.

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. The most hilarious thing I've seen so far is this here, tdtd. I'm still totally laughing my ass off.

And as expected and predicted many times, Nai has resorted to his last resort argument before the veins in his head explode, and that's to call me tdtd and draw attention away from his stupidity. Truly predictable and entertaining.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And as expected and predicted many times, Nai has resorted to his last resort argument before the veins in his head explode, and that's to call me tdtd and draw attention away from his stupidity. Truly predictable and entertaining.

Excuse me. Since you're constantly attempting to lure the attention away from the actual debate with red herrings, knowing that you're inable to debate your way out of a matchbox, I've just decided to play your own game with you, Dr McTrollington. So: Did you study law or economics now? Your different internet biographies are contradicting eachother in regards to that point.

We could also humor ourselfs with re-reading your great arguments how Exar Kun beats Yoda!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me. Since you're constantly attempting to lure the attention away from the actual debate with red herrings, knowing that you're inable to debate your way out of a matchbox, I've just decided to play your own game with you, Dr McTrollington. So: Did you study law or economics now? Your different internet biographies are contradicting eachother in regards to that point.

We could also humor ourselfs with re-reading your great arguments how Exar Kun beats Yoda!

There's no we here Nai, there's just you. Be happy I'm giving you the courtesy of being the only one who is even acknowledging your stupidity. I don't need to lure attention away from the actual debate because you don't have an actual argument. That's why I'm just having fun with you because you bring no real point or anything of substance to the table. I've outlined the "Nai 5 step program" many times before, and you're on step 5 already. You should have stopped with "the Sith have the Star Forge". But you can keep humoring 'us', and then posting your definition of "facts" to humor yourself. Either way, here's a dancing banana.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no we here Nai, there's just you. Be happy I'm giving you the courtesy of being the only one who is even acknowledging your stupidity. I don't need to lure attention away from the actual debate because you don't have an actual argument. That's why I'm just having fun with you because you bring no real point or anything of substance to the table. I've outlined the "Nai 5 step program" many times before, and you're on step 5 already. You should have stopped with "the Sith have the Star Forge". But you can keep humoring 'us', and then posting your definition of "facts" to humor yourself. Either way, here's a dancing banana.

Another pointless attempt to lure the attention away from the topic.

It's probably not in the best interests of certain parties to conjure up seemingly retarded arguments.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Another pointless attempt to lure the attention away from the topic.

http://theinsanityreport.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/pot_kettle.jpg[

Originally posted by Gideon
It's probably not in the best interests of certain parties to conjure up seemingly retarded arguments.

Why not?

@Beef: Reported for trolling. Go on with your pointless antagonizing and you can keep it up on my ignore list. If you don't have anything to say, refrain from posting. For somebody who begged me to be more civil with him a few weeks ago, you certainly behave yourself like a total ass. I'd love to know the reason for that. Boredom?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Why not?

@Beef: Reported for trolling. Go on with your pointless antagonizing and you can keep it up on my ignore list. If you don't have anything to say, refrain from posting. For somebody who begged me to be more civil with him a few weeks ago, you certainly behave yourself like a total ass. I'd love to know the reason for that. Boredom?

I'm just following your lead Nai. There's no bigger ass than you on here which is weird because you bring in arguments bordering on insanity. Nobody "begged" you to be civil but you're the king of making things up, so please continue. And seeing as how I'm on your ignore list (allegedly), looks like you'll be talking to yourself from now on.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm just following your lead Nai. There's no bigger ass than you on here which is weird because you bring in arguments bordering on insanity. Nobody "begged" you to be civil but you're the king of making things up, so please continue. And seeing as how I'm on your ignore list (allegedly), looks like you'll be talking to yourself from now on.

Oh my goodness. I'll try to be civil now, DS:

Star Forge:

Where have I made things up, DS? I interpreted the words of Pall to the point where I assumed that the Ancient Sith Empire had access to the Star Forge. Is that legit? Yes, DS. It is. You can feel free to present your ideas on why my line of thought is wrong but stating "You made things up, Nai" doesn't cut it because I didn't put the lines of Pall into Kotor, did I?

The Dark Side abilities:

In Star by Star Jaina is capable of hitting multiple Vong with force lightning and all variations of that ability or seemingly variations (e.g. Luke's "green spark instakill" seem to work just fine. Telekinesis also effect them directly, just to a lesser extend than normal beings (seen in Edge of Victory II: Rebirth).

Edit: As many Dark Side techniques are based on this "elemental" use of energy, I suppose that those who are would work against the Vong, much like attacks based on TK (force crush, choke etc.).

Notice: Non of that affects much of my argument, which means that you're simply nitpicking. Reason? Apparently you can't counter my argument and therefore you're attempting to attack me instead. Are you really that desperate, DS?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my goodness. I'll try to be civil now, DS:

Star Forge:

Where have I made things up, DS? I interpreted the words of Pall to the point where I assumed that the Ancient Sith Empire had access to the Star Forge. Is that legit? Yes, DS. It is. You can feel free to present your ideas on why my line of thought is wrong but stating "You made things up, Nai" doesn't cut it because I didn't put the lines of Pall into Kotor, did I?
He alluded to something that may or may not resemble the star forge, that is ALL. Your interpretation is called REACHING.


Aside from Luke's incredible instakill, you'll have to show me the direct quote because I'm not familiar with it.


I'm not really sure any of those techniques would work against the Vong. Hell, lightning for instance would just curve around them. It's as if they were wearing ysalamiri.



There's nothing to counter Nai. Your argument consists of wild assertions, nothing more.

McBeefington, I'm giving you a warning for trolling. You can tell someone that you disagree with their argument without insulting them. Don't let it happen again.

Thanks for the warning Rex.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because of betrayal



A single betrayal destroyed their entire empire?



From what I read on Wookieepedia Ragnos was scared of invading the Republic.

Why didn't this dark reaper device end the war?



And what stops the Vong from doing the same to the sith, who only ruled a hundred or so worlds?



That is a somewhat separate debate, but one that you would be in a severe disadvantage. Do you really think that some random ancient sith could stand a chance against NJO+ Luke?



It's true. 9 > 8 > 7. A nuclear bomb of 2 megatons causes a bigger bang then a nuclear bomb of 1 megaton which causes a bigger bang than a nuclear bomb of 500 kilotons.



And if the sith empire really was as uber powerful as you and some people may claim, then why were they so hesitant to invade?



What cutscenes show this?

Also, being superior to 5000 BBY Republic ships doesn't mean being superior to YV ships.



It seems as though without Sadow, the sith empire can't seem to fight. The YV could blow up his meditation sphere, or distract him.



The sith empire was not thousands of years ahead of the Republic or else they would have won the war regardless of whether or not they had Sadow's aid.



Well apparently the dark reaper didn't end up working that well for the sith.




My point is that NJO era SW has the technology to create star system destroying superweapons.



"inferior technology"? When did I ever state that the GA had inferior technology compared to the Vong?

The GA and allies forces lost over 300 capital ships. That's quite a bit.



How so?



Can Sadow create these illusions on multiple battles lightyears apart while he himself is under attack?



Ok then. Thanks.



The Galaxy, while undermilitarized, was still far superior technologically than the Galaxy circa 5000 BBY.



100 planets is actually very little compared to, say, the Republic circa the Clone Wars, which consisted of about a million worlds. It can be estimated that the GA had at least a majority of that, since they controlled more than the Imperial Remnant as of the YV invasion.



Ok then. Thanks.



And what defense will these Massassi have against long ranged artillery or snipers (if the YV have the latter)?



I highly doubt that Sadow could create illusions on all 100 worlds, which were probably many lightyears apart.

The YV caused hundreds of trillions of casualties. It can be estimated that the YV army numbered in at least the hundreds of billions, if not trillions or even tens or hundreds of trillions. It would not be impossible for their army to number in the quadrillions. The sith empire apparently only had around 100 worlds. The YV could send billions against each world at once and still have troops to spare. What is Sadow going to do about that? Conjure up a billion illusions in each world?

The entire sith empire popluation couldn't be more than AT THE MOST maybe 100 trillion. Coruscant, implied to be the most populated planet in SW by the PT with 1 trillion recorded civilians and an estimated trillion or so more, is stated and shown to be very crowded, even with extremely high skyscrapers. Assuming that the sith empire planets aren't too much bigger than the size of Earth, which would be needed to ensure that the civilians can survive the gravitational forces, even if each world of the sith empire were as populated as Coruscant (which would be ridiculous), the empire would still only have a hundred or so trillion. The YV war caused more CASUALTIES than that, and the number of casualties caused during a war are almost always a very small percentile of the total population.

And not all of that population would consist of military personel. Based on these calculations, the sith empire's military would only number in the billions, which, compared to a galactic army of trillions or potentially trillions, is small.

Sorry for the triple post.

Another thing to consider is that the YV would have significantly more advanced hyperdrive technology. By the beginning of the CW class 3 hyperdrives were rare, but by the YV war class 0.4 (the lower the hyperdrive class, the faster in most scales) ships were possible, and class 1 and 2 hyperdrives were common among capital ships. With this, the YV fleets could move far faster than the sith empire fleets.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He alluded to something that may or may not resemble the star forge, that is ALL. Your interpretation is called REACHING.


No, DS. It would be "reaching" if I had based my argument upon that point, which I clearly didn't do. That aside: So we've moved from "Nai made things up" to "Nai may be right" now? Congratulations.



Really?

In a motion so fast Jaina barely saw it, the warrior sat up and flicked his coufee at her throat. She could have dodged or blocked with her lightsaber, but she did not. Instead, with the fierce energy crackling inside her, she used her free hand to bat the weapon aside, then raised her hand toward her attacker and released the dark power inside. A fork of lightning crackled into existence a few centimeters beyond her glove tips, then blasted a hole through the Yuuzhan Vong's chest and hurled him onto the rubble pile smoking and motionless. (Star by Star, Chapter 49)

Emphasis mine. If Jaina can kill a Vong with force lightning, I guess individuals that spent centuries studying the Dark Side could do the job, too.

Anakin rose and threw the most powerful telekinetic blast he
could at the group of Yuuzhan Vong. If they had been any other species, it would have pasted them to the wall. Instead, two fell and the other three staggered as if in a high wind. (Edge of Victory II: Rebirth, Chapter 39)

Telekinesis does affect Yuuzhan Vong but they have some immunity to it, apparently, causing the TK being less effective. However...there are other methods to deal with them using the force:

He broke off suddenly and staggered. His aide caught him. Nen Yim was still wondering what had happened when she suddenly felt something pressing her entire body, as if she were deep under water. Her lungs labored to draw the syrupy air and her pulse hammered.

Through flashes of blue and black, she saw that Mez_han Kwaad and Yal Phaath's aide were also struggling to breathe.

The pain increased sharply. Soon her eyeballs would collapse, then her heart. Striving for calm, she spun her failing gaze around the room.

The young Jeedai stood at the side of the vivarium, hands pressed against the transparent membrane. Her green eyes blazed and her teeth were drawn back from her lips in a rictus of fury. Nen Yim saw murder there, and suddenly understood.



The Jeedai screamed and pounded on the membrane, and for an instant the pressure actually increased, crushing so hard that Nen Yim couldn't breathe at all. Then, more suddenly than it had come, the uncanny pressure relented, and her lungs jerked in a much-needed breath. (Edge of Victory I: Conquest, Chapter 18)

If Tahiri Veila while imprisoned (and "shaped" by the Yuuzhan Vong, is capable of force crushing them, I doubt that Ancient Sith Lords would have much trouble doing the same, especially provided that Force Crush is an Ancient Sith signature move.



Assertions, DS?

Argument #1: The Sith have potentially infinite ground troops and ships utilizing Sadow's illusions. Given that this is exactly what happens in the comics, this isn't an assertion, but a fact. That those can only be countered by interrupting Sadow's concentration (which would require to find him first) is likewise a fact.

Argument #2: The Ancient Sith have weapons that rival (or outclass) modern age technology. Given that the Dark Reaper was unstoppable by PT era tech and the weapon installed on Sadow's flagship is only rivaled by the Sun Crusher (likewise modern day SW tech), this again isn't an "assertion" but a fact.

Argument #3: Sith Alchemy and Sith Magic are a well of fairytale equipment, potentially generating gimmics that could be considered a deus ex machina. Again a fact, provided such tools as Sith amulets, Ragnos sceptre or the above mentioned gauntlet.

Argument #4: The force aided battle prowess of the Ancient Sith Lords coupled with their gimmics fieled under #3 is a potentially deadly mixture even threatening larged Vong forces, much like the cooperation of Luke and his niece and nephew. Again a fact, unless you want to argue that the Ancient Sith Lords are somehow weaklings.

Nothing to counter and only assertions, DS? And don't get me wrong: Utilizing only conventional warfare, the Vong would probably defeat - if not outright curbstomp - the Ancient Sith Empire. But adding / utilizing their unconventional means, the Ancient Sith would have a decent shot against the Vong.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
A single betrayal destroyed their entire empire?


I would encourage you (and everybody else) to read the comics:
The first betrayal by Gav (attacking Sadow) leads to Sadow dropping his illusions, which previously increased the Sith forces a thousandfold. So this apparently did cost the Sith 99,99 % of their fighting force. The second betrayal by Gav (warning the Republic Fleet) hindered a trap by Sadow from working, that would otherwise have destroyed the entire fleet pursuing him. The third betrayal by Kressh (proclaiming himself Dark Lord) let to the remaing forces of Sadow being greeted with a fleet attacking them when they made it back to Sith space. The comibined forces (or even Sadow's fleet alone) could have had a chance against the Republic forces following them.

So you have three betrayals causing the fall of the Sith Empire. Notice how one (Vader killing Sidious) brought the Galactic Empire down.



No. He just didn't see any point in expanding the Empire further as all Lords already lived in wealth, each of them controlling dozens of worlds. Why risk to conquer other worlds if you have anything you desire already. They simply assumed that the Jedi - like themselves - grew stronger over the last 2,000 years, which apparently didn't happen, as Sadow's later attack did show.



Apparently it wasn't used during the Great Hyperspace War, maybe because it was controlled by Kressh's faction of the Sith Empire.



How about not knowing the location of the Sith worlds and, you know, the Sith themselves.



That wasn't the point and you know it pretty damn well. And I doubt that Jacen, Jaina and Luke could defeat the 20 Sith Lords, as you happily claimed.



And it's still not an argument. Got that now?



See above.



Battle for the Star Forge in KotoR, and 3950 BBY not 5000.




Yes. After spending hundreds of years searching for it...



Stop arguing in circles and stop arguing against the facts. Good god. The Sith were ahead of the Republic in certain fields (superweapons). That aside: According to your logic, the Galactic Empire was less powerful than the Rebel Alliance because otherwise they should have won with or without Sidious' aid? Obviously not.



See above. Apparently it wasn't used during the Great Hyperspace War but just constructed during that time.




Wonderful. So has the Sith Empire. I've posted multiple scans of Sadow actually using said technology. And technically spoken, the NJO era doesn't have the technology, because they pratically destroyed it 20 years earlier...



Not while he's under attack - but he won't be under attack.
And he has created them on multiple locations simultaneously that were both lightyears away from him and from eachother...



There is nothing like "the Galaxy" when it comes to technological advantage. ANd please proof your point. Far superior? I could swear they are still using the same weapons, the same armor and overall the same technology that they did use 5,000 years ago. :rollyes:



I don't know where the "100 planets" come from. The TOTJ era comics have 21 Sith Lords (at the very least) with each of them controlling (at the very least) "a dozen" (=12) planets. That would be 252 planets alone...

And yes. The Republic had more planets. So what? The Republic military has always been laughable. Hence it was almost overrun by Sadow, Revan, the Sith Triumvirate, the Sith Emperor, the Brotherhood of Darkness and finally the CIS. The Galactic Empire was the only military that actually fielded enough ships / troops / superweapons to really "control" a Galaxy.



The Vong fight with amphistaffs, which are also combined melee and (short) ranged weapons. No snipers and no "real" artilery. Not that it would matter. The Sith have some nice beasts to utilize and - as long as Sadow is up - an innumberable supply of troops.



Why would he be in need to do that? You're again assuming that the Vong invade the Sith Empire. I don't see where the thread-started has defined such a scenario. And even if that should be the case, the Vong would have to attack 100 worlds simultaneously, which is almost impossible.



Unless you proof the factual strength of the Vong, I won't buy into your "billions upon billions" numbers. A great portion of the forces was present and destroyed during the Second Battle of Coruscant and that piled up to a number of 100 millions. Where are you taking the "billions from" or the "quadrilions". Latter would be the number of scentient beings in the entire SW Galaxy. That's ridiculous.

Again: The Vong fleet would need to dwarf that of the Galactic Empire in order to even transport such a population and, as we know, that wasn't the case. So? You are obviously overestimating the numerical strength of the Vong by far.







Right. Firstly: Some YV ship have no working hyperdrive at all. The Worldship seem to have a class 4 hyperdrive, and we don't even know what class the Sith utilized. That aside: Assuming the scenario you presented above (YV invading Sith Space) an advantage would boil down to seconds / minutes because of the (relative) short distances to be crossed.

I'm going to give a numbered list of points responding to your important arguments.

1. Of the betrayals you listed, all but one involved simply foiling some amp that Sadow had or a trap. If Sadow's forces really were technologically superior and, I would suppose in order to justify your claims of the ancient sith empire competing with the YV numerically, numerically superior as well, the ancient sith empire would have won even without its illusions, but it lost without them.

2. I find it hard to believe that Ragnos would not want to invade the Republic, given how greedy, ambitious and arrogant sith in Star Wars almost always are.

3. If they didn't use the dark reaper during that war, why would they use it during this hypothetical war?

4. It wouldn't be that difficult to find the location of the sith planets by getting information from someone or accessing the holonet (if the ancient sith empire had that).

5. NJO+ Luke, Jaina and Jacen would quite easily beat 20 average sith. Sidious pwned 3 high level Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds, and one thing that we do agree on is that Luke > Sidious (you seem to think that Luke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidious). Luke > Sidious, famous and high level Jedi Masters > run of the mill, no name sith lords and notice that Sidious beat those Jedi in a few seconds. And Luke would we using a battle meld in this case. 20 sith lords couldn't take down thousands of YV warriors. Luke and Ben, despite not having eaten or drunken for over a week or even 3 or so weeks (a lack of water and likely food for that long would kill any human I know), took down 15 (I think it was 15, or around 15) sith who had the element of surprise.

6. It would not take hundreds of years for the Vong to search for the sith meditation sphere (well, if they did simply by randomly roaming the galaxy it might). It did not take hundreds of years for the NJO to track down Caedus multiple times.

7. You say that the sith were ahead of the Republic in certain fields, which I agree with. Are they ahead in ship/weapons/armor/medical/hyperdrive/etc. technology as well?

8. Your claim was that the ancient sith empire had superior (or maybe comparable) technology compared to the YV and listed their star system destroying superweapons as an example. I was refuting this.

9. I doubt that Sadow could, even if not under attack, create sufficient illusions on 100 different worlds to stop an all out invasion. Oh, and planet busting/severely planet damaging superweapons.

10. The galaxy as of the YV invasion used similar technology, but more advanced versions of them. In FOTJ: Allies there are several comments as to how one of Lando's ships, which is a few hundred years old, was so primitive by the time they were talking about it.

11. You're the one that stated that the ancient sith empire had 100 planets.

12. The Vong caused hundreds of trillions of casualties. Historically the number of casualties (including civilian casualties) in a war is almost always (POSSIBLE exceptions being complete annihilation of a civilization, which the YV war was not) a very small proportion of the total number of combatants. Hundreds of millions of YV died in the Battle of Coruscant alone, putting the total number of YV in the billions at least.

13. Of course some ships wouldn't have hyperdrives or very fast ones if they aren't designed for that.



Here's the YV plan:

The YV target all 100 ancient sith empire planets at once. As I described in one of my posts, the sith numbers would have to be low compared to that of the YV in order to have fitted in 100 planets that were close enough to the size of Earth to be livable.

They attack using planet busting (or weapons that can render planets uninhabitable) superweapons, thus effectively destroying the ancient sith empire.

If the sith retaliate with their own superweapons, they would be at a disadvantage. In this thread the YV are invading, and if their planets are somehow in this war as well, they numbered far more than 100 and therefore the sith would have to destroy far more worlds than the Vong would, while the sith would also be using inferior hyperdrive technology.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
A single betrayal destroyed their entire empire?

It's one of those...Sith...things.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, but why does Nai suddenly without warning stop debating? And "oh your argument wasn't worth responding to" is one of the oldest tricks in the book and not true since Nai suddenly stops.

I get angry when people can't admit that they're wrong when they actually are (I have, and a few others such as TJ have as well). If you admit defeat, that is not at all a problem, but to not admit than you have lost (I do not see why you keep bragging about 100 worlds but when I show you the 1000000 world figure for thr Republic you lie and pretend that you did not claim that) when you really have is acting like a 5 year old.

Several billion YV attack each sith planet, each of which I proved in some previous threads had to have had a relatively small number of troops.

Anybody else please do not get into this; you might not understand how annoying it is to get insulted by someone only for them to stop debating and refuse to apologize when you out debate them.

Nai suddenly stops debating because he has a life. He's like a weekly/bi-weekly poster.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Nai suddenly stops debating because he has a life. He's like a weekly/bi-weekly poster.

No, his timing is too suspicious. He leaves as soon as his argument is getting defeated. He's also hypocritical, because he blames Dr. B for doing this to him.






The YV would have to have an army of at least tens or hundreds of billions, maybe even in the trillions or quadrillions. I have explained why before.

The sith empire couldn't even have had a total population over a few trillion. I have explained why before.

Therefore, the YV could invade each of the sith empire's 100 planets each with troops ranging from the hundreds of millions to tens of billions. Naga Sadow will not be able to generate illusions on 100 planets at once. The sith empire defense forces will be horribly outnumbered and outmatched by the numerically and technologically superior YV space and ground troops.









But that isn't really necessary. The YV could simply launch superweapons at each of the 100 planets. If the sith try and counter this, they'll have to destroy far more than 100 planets, meaning that the YV will destroy the sith before the sith get to destroy the YV.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No, his timing is too suspicious. He leaves as soon as his argument is getting defeated. He's also hypocritical, because he blames Dr. B for doing this to him.

Actually, Blax was right: I didn't have the necessary freetime to continue this during the last week because of "having a life", which ocassionally keeps me busy enough not to get bored, which is the only reason for me to actually come here. That aside: Where did you defeat my argument?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. Of the betrayals you listed, all but one involved simply foiling some amp that Sadow had or a trap. If Sadow's forces really were technologically superior and, I would suppose in order to justify your claims of the ancient sith empire competing with the YV numerically, numerically superior as well, the ancient sith empire would have won even without its illusions, but it lost without them.

Somehow I think you don't get what happened. If Sadow's illusions multiplied the Sith forces a thousandfold, the betrayal took 99,9% of his troops away. The next took away a comeback and finally, the entire governing body of the Sith Empire was either wiped out or forced to retreat, with the actual enemy appearing in the - now undefended - heart of the Empire.
That aside you don't take any psychology into consideration. The Galactic Empire fell apart when the Emperor and the second in command were killed in the Battle of Endor, despite being far superior to the Rebel Alliance. Similar situation, similar outcome.



I don't care what you find hard to believe. Read the comics and stay with the facts instead of attempting to argue out of ignorance.



Because they would be united and fighting an enemy invading their own Empire.



Again, you're arguing against the facts. Even Sidious had to search ancient sources to find the location of certain Sith worlds and the man had more resources at his disposal than anybody else. It's not that the location of the Sith worlds was common knowledge...



Care to explain how you are able to read "average Sith" when I'm typing "Ancient Sith Lords"? Care to explain how the Tribe of the Sith apprentices are even remotely compareable to people that studied the Dark Side and Sith Magic for centuries? Apparently you have no idea what the Ancient Sith are capable of. Again, I can only advice you to check the source material instead of arguing out of ignorance.



Did you, by chance, miss the fact that the Vong don't have force users capable of locating other force users - in contrast to the NJO? That aside: The Meditation Sphere is a mobile ship, semi-sentient and the Vong would need to search it somewhere in Sith space, without even knowing the extend of the Sith space nor that they actually need to search for the sphere.



This is complete speculation. We know that their ships were superior to Republic ships constructed 1,500 years later. We also know that force enhanced technology can yield results that "normal" invention isn't capable to offer. For example the Aing-Ti-Monks ability to "teleport" their ships through the Galaxy. The Sith, however, do have the means to keep up with armor / weapons thanks to Sith Alchemy.



You were refuting facts?
Let's be honest: You have no idea, how the technology compares to that of the Vong, neither do I. Who cares? This was never part of my original argument which, much to your dismay, isn't based on "conventional warfare". So I don't really get why everything you say is aimed at that topic. Desperation?



Neither will he be attacked, nor will all planets of the Empire be attacked simultaneously. Why? The Vong don't have his location, don't know that he even exists, don't have the locations of the Sith worlds and don't have the forces to attack them all at once.



And you're arguing against the facts once again. I told you before that it doesn't make sense to compare the technology of two different cultures evolving seperated from each other. Centerpoint Station is 100,000 years old and still was the most effective weapon used against the Vong. The Vong are utilizing technology that is a 1,000 years old and still compares to that of the Republic. The Sith had weapons that were totally superior to anything but the Sun Crusher, 5,000 years before the latter was invented. That aside you're once more aiming at conventional warfare here, ignoring the entire purpose of my argument.



No. I'm the one that introduced a quote saying it had "well over a hundred planets"...



Again: Arguing out of ignorance.
The invasion of the YV was coined by genocidal tactics like destroying / terraforming planets and killing all inhabitants. Thusly 1/3 of the Galactic population was killed, which is hardly "a very small proportion of the number of combatants", unless you want to assume that there were more combatants than actual inhabitants of the Galaxy. And stop pulling conclusions out of nowhere. The Battle of Coruscant saw the amassed invasion force of the YV (minus what they had lost before) and many of the warriors did commit suicide, after the death of Shimra. So how does it follow from there that the YV had "billions" of troops?



The YV neither have the information nor the forces to attack all Sith planets. Even if they could, Sadow would conjure illusional fleets and armies to take it up with them, which would still result in the YV losing by attrition sooner or later.

The alternative: The Vong show up in Sith space and the Sith Lords detonate the next star to wipe the entire invasion fleet out with a single attack. They could also attack the Vong with illusional fleets, outnumbering them totally and send some of the most powerful Dark Side users in history of the SW universe in for personal confrontation. This is not even mentioning the monsters and other nice gimmics created via Sith Alchemy, with the latter being force enhanced version of plot devices that you can wear as jewelry, sometimes able to wipe out entire armies on their own in the hands of a halfway decent force user. Hell. What stops them from thought-bombing the Vong?

In terms of conventional warfare, the Vong would most likely win, maybe even curbstomp the Sith. Adding the Siths abilities to manipulate the force, and they have a decent shot to take down the Vong with their "unnatural" abilities.

Hm, illusions and thought-bombs shouldn't work on Vong, separated from the Force and all.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, Blax was right: I didn't have the necessary freetime to continue this during the last week because of "having a life", which ocassionally keeps me busy enough not to get bored, which is the only reason for me to actually come here. That aside: Where did you defeat my argument?



Ok then, although it's hard to tell if you're telling the truth or not. Still, sorry if I offended you.



Basically, the betrayals took away his illusions, and apparently without his illusions the sith got creamed.



Fair enough



Since when would an invasion of their homeworld somehow unite them? You and Team Empire claimed that Earth would not unite when the Empire invaded.



Maybe, but the same could be said for the reverse.



Sensors anyone?

And the same could be said for the reversed; how are the sith going to track down the YV, who would have vastly superior hyperdrive, sensors and jammers?



The sith apparently got creamed when they lost their illusions. Had they really been that superior to the Old Republic forces, they would have won even if they lost their illusions.



You were stating that the sith had superior technology in terms of superweapons. I was refuting that.



Why would the YV invade the sith empire without knowing where the sith are?

And again, the same thing could be said in reverse. The sith would have no idea where the YV worlds are located, and the YV ships would have superior hyperdrive, sensors and jammers.



You're implying that the technological gap between the sith and the Republic was that big, but it obviously wasn't. The Celestials had already existed for quite a while by the time that they created Centerpoint Station, and the Rakata had already had several milenia to advanced by the time that they created the Star Forge. The sith empire was at about the same technological level as the Republic when the sith empire was founded, and both civilizations coexisted. The sith did not have several more milenia to advance.



And then you kept on mentioning "100 planets" and boasting about that.



Good point. However, my point about the sith empire having a limited amount of troops compared to the YV still stands.



Again, the same could be applied in reverse. It would be easier for the YV to find 100 planets than for the sith empire to find however many planets the YV have AND their fleets, which would have advanced hyperdrive, sensor and jamming systems superior to that of the sith empire.



"detonate the next star" - as you said about the YV finding the sith planets, how will the sith locate the YV fleet?

"illusional fleets" - Sadow would have to conjure up a lot of illusional fleets if he is to make up for the numerical and technological gap. Also, would the YV even be affected by the illusions?



Well, your stance is now more defensible since you've changed it. However, your primary defense that the YV would not be able to locate the sith planets works in reverse as well. As soon as the YV locate the sith planets the sith are screwed.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Basically, the betrayals took away his illusions, and apparently without his illusions the sith got creamed.

The Battle of Endor just took away two leaders, a few troops and a few ships of the Empires massive forces which resulted in them losing the Galactic Civil War. Would this be a reason for you to assume that the Galactic Empire couldn't take out the Rebel Alliance in a straigth forward confrontation, bringing all of it's forces to the field?



Again: Did you read the comics? When Sadow fakes an attack on the Sith forces by the Republic citizens (Gav and Jori), all of the Sith want to punish them but only his followers (and he gained some additional ones there) wanted to invade Republic space as revenge action. When the enemy force shows up in their Empire, they won't hesitate.



How so?



You are still comparing apples to oranges here and now you are trying to defend that kind of reasoning? Once again: The Sith that attacked Luke and Ben where mostly apprentices that had precisely nothing in common with Sith Lords, even less with ancient Sith Lords. Then they were attacking eachother while taking it up with the Skywalkers. And it's the fact that the Ancient Sith had centuries to study the force makes them powerful (besides their magical gimmics) not the "ancient" qualifier.



Does it occur to you that the range of sensors is limited to single star-systems, probably even less? That won't help much. And why would the Sith be in need to search for an enemy invading their Empire. Logic anybody?



No. About 50 % of the Sith forces (if even that) were defeated when they lost their illusions due to betrayal. Point: They have at least twice as many troops now and they won't lose their illusions here.



You can't refute facts. Their force enhanced technology is pretty much ahead of everything else the current SW universe has to offer.



Because the thread-starter said so. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't hit the reply button. This question is especially nonsensical in context of a versus-forum. Why would NJO Luke challenge NJO Kyp Durron in a duel? How is Exar Kun going to fight Sidious?



Is this some kind of joke? The Vong are the invasion force here. Their worlds are in another Galaxy and completely empty (because the YV left them or totally destroyed them). The YV have superior hyperdrive? Proof it! Superior sensors? In comparison to a Galaxy spanning energy field that would show giant "black holes" where the Vong are? Besides that: Proof the superiority of their sensors and don't even dare to state that those of the Sith are older. Superior jammers? Again: Proof it. And how does that compare to tangible illusions that can be summoned out of nowhere?

Hell. Proof that they have sensors and jammers at all. I can clearly remember that the Vong hated technology and thusly were forced to do everything via bio-engeneering. So I'd love to see what their bio-engineered scanners and jammers are capable of. I'm certain you have quotes from the source material supporting your points. If not: Drop them.



Is it fun to keep arguing against the facts? Firstly: The Sith Empire and the Republic didn't coexists. They were seperated from each other entirely. Just the Jedi Exiles did visit the Sith Empire. And we have seen that after 2,000 years of seperated technological development, the Sith are more than 1,500+ years ahead of the Republic when it came to military ships. Which is still just refering to "regular" technology.



Because I could only have speculated how high the number was, which doesn't matter because 100 planets are already too much for your "Vong plan" to work.



Really? I've yet to see any proof that the YV outnumber the Sith. Oh wait a second. There aren't actual numbers for either of the factions, which means that you are speculating without any proof for your speculation.

De facto, it makes more sense to assume that a civilization that spans 100+ worlds consists of more people than a civilization that has first almost destroyed itself and spent the last millenium traveling to another Galaxy in spaceships, while reducing their numbers even further via infighting.



Now you're entirely ignoring the setup of the fight in order to hand in anything. This is called reaching and I won't continue this debate if you don't have anything else to offer. The Vong invade the Sith Empire with all they have. That's it. No need for the Sith to search for fleets and even less planets.



Because the Vong invade them. Stop ignoring the setup of the fight.



Are we talking about the technological and the numercial advantage that you have failed to provide any proof for? And since Sadow has been said to have summoned "innumerable" fleets and troops, that should be quite enough.



No. It doesn't work in reverse, because the Sith are being attacked here and not vice versa. My stance didn't change a bit. You've apparently just chosen to ignore it so far, and you still ignore it pretty well, given that you are still attempting to argue conventional warfare, where I keep repeating (essentially) that the Vong have no chance against the Dark Side abilities (+Sith Magic / Alchemy) that the Sith have at their disposal.

In addition to that, you are not only ignoring the setup for this fight here to hand in "arguments", you are also ignoring in universe facts in order to do so. Quite frankly: That doesn't make any sense and if that's all you have to offer, I'm not going to continue this "debate".

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Battle of Endor just took away two leaders, a few troops and a few ships of the Empires massive forces which resulted in them losing the Galactic Civil War. Would this be a reason for you to assume that the Galactic Empire couldn't take out the Rebel Alliance in a straigth forward confrontation, bringing all of it's forces to the field?



Those are two different scenarios. The Empire fell because without Palpatine the different potential rulers fought amongst themselves.



How does this prove that the sith would unite?



The YV have superior Stealth technology.



Luke and Ben, especially Luke, were in a very bad physical and mental condition; Luke had gone for possibly weeks without food or water, something that would kill any mortal human that I know of. Ben was also in a bad, albeit somewhat better, condition.

Luke went for I think 3 weeks without food or water.

And yet Luke and Ben still beat 15 sith.

Are you claiming that the power difference between a full health Luke, Jacen and Jaina sharing a Battle Meld and Luke that had gone for 3 weeks without food or water and Ben that was also not in a good condition is smaller than the power difference between 20 ancient sith and 15 sith apprentices?

If so, then you're wrong. Full health Luke, Jacen and Jaina sharing a Battle Meld > a starving Luke and a somewhat starving Ben by a larger margin than 20 ancient sith > 15 sith apprentices.

Get it?



Just because a fleet is invading doesn't mean that the defender somehow knows the location of the other fleet.



You're basically saying that, without their illusions, the sith got stomped by the Republic.



You made this claim, and stated that nova causing sith weapon as evidence.

I refuted that claim, using the sun crusher as evidence.

After a misunderstanding, we're back to the same argument.



That's not my point. My point is that the YV would have gathered a knowledge of where the sith planets are before invading, and such knowledge can easily enough be gained from a sith soldier.



Hyperdrive - by the YV invasion era, class 1 hyperdrives were common, whereas class 3 hyperdrives were experimental at the start of the Clone Wars. (note that the lower the hyperdrive class, the faster)

Sensors - technology has evolved over time, you know. From what I know nav computers weren't even around or were very knew just the sith empire times.

Superior jammers - again, technology evolves even in SW.


Sensors are indeed mentioned according to the usually reliable Wookieepedia.

I'll ask you however, how you think that the YV almost took over the galaxy without sensors or jammers.



My point is that the Republic and sith Empire evolved evenly throughout time, whereas your Celestial and Rakata analogy was flawed because those races already had a long time to advanced way before the modern SW civilizations had come to be.



No, they aren't. 100 planets is a small number in SW terms, and the YV almost conquered a galaxy consisting of millions of planets.



I'm saying that the sith empire's population had to have fit on only 100 planets. Therefore, it must have been small compared to, say, the New Republic.



You place italics around the 100 worlds figure as if bragging about it, even though the YV posed a significant threat to a civilization of a million worlds.

That's a double standard. How come the YV wouldn't know the locations of the planets in an empire that they're about to invade, yet the sith empire, which likely would not be expecting an attack, would somehow magically know the locations of the YV planets and fleets?



How does this equate to the sith somehow knowing where the YV are?



I have explained how the sith empire's population would have to be able to fit in only 100 planets, which is relatively small compared to civilizations such as the Galactic Alliance or Galactic Empire.



Illusions - I doubt that Sadow can generate illusions on 100 planets lightyears apart at once.

Superweapons - if the YV attack the sith planets, the sith will not be able to use superweapons unless if they want to destroy their own planets.



Your main defense is that the YV won't be able to find the sith planets. However, this can be said in reverse, and no, the defending civilization does not magically know the locations of fleets and planets of the attacking one.

bump (so that Nai can find it if he comes back online)

God you suck.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
God you suck.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
bump (so that Nai can find it if he comes back online)

You are an annoying moron of the worst variety. You are worse than Boog. You are worse than Neb ever was.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
God you suck.

Originally posted by truejedi
You are an annoying moron of the worst variety. You are worse than Boog. You are worse than Neb ever was.

W. T. F.???

That's sincerely my intention; to bump the thread so that Nai can see it (since our debate isn't over, and he doesn't come online that often, but when he does he might want to continue this debate) If you guys are annoyed by it, simply ignore it. Gosh.

BTW, I don't see how bumping a legitimate thread for a legitimate reason is more annoying than making a thread about Panzers vs AT-ATs (lord lucien) or making a thread about something vs a black bear (TJ).

He's still here. Why--HOW has he persisted this long?