(shadowland)Daredevil vs Wolverine(demon)

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King Castle
which demon possessed Hero will win?

ko, kill.. forum rules.

Slaanesh
maybe Wolverine..he looked more awesome with the fire and claw..

King Castle
really should wait to comment on both since they are still being written..

dont know how well they will do.

carver9
Regular Wolverine can take this version of DD. I seen there recent fight but nothing really happened. DD got stabbed, tossed Wolverine and thats it. Wolverine can take him in my opinion.

King Castle
what if we find out that DD has a Penance stare or warps reality?

carver9
Thats a different story but I honestly believe that Wolverine would be enough to take down this DD.

King Castle
i agree with you.

besides this is just over kill shifty

Originally posted by guy222
http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/10201/37eb43102003068.jpg http://thumbnails9.imagebam.com/10201/c68dc4102003081.jpg http://thumbnails30.imagebam.com/10201/c0408d102003094.jpg http://thumbnails14.imagebam.com/10201/97bea2102003105.jpg

carver9
Yeah, that Wolverine is a beast. I want to see what the Vampire Wolverine is all about.

King Castle
i really think the vampire curse is redunted on certain characters unless it gives them a power otherwise guys like wolverine and sabe its just a weakness.

i mean wolverine is empathic already so they at least better play up the animal summoning or some SH$#... some TP/TK vamp style.. at least a mid level brick ala cage...otherwise its just a brain wash version of Logan who is even weaker then his standard self.

http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/X-Men_3_0024-300x465.jpg

like to point out logan alreadu has/had fangs prior to the vamp.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
Regular Wolverine can take this version of DD. I seen there recent fight but nothing really happened. DD got stabbed, tossed Wolverine and thats it. Wolverine can take him in my opinion. What the f**k?

I don't know what you saw, but I saw DD b*tchslap Wolvie into a pillar across the room. Then I noticed that Wolvie was nowhere to be seen for the entire rest of the issue/fight.

King Castle
will DD have a pillar here too? will logan be surprised here as well at the new level of power?

you think DD can hit with sufficient force to ko logan now?

facepalm2

Galan007
Originally posted by King Castle
will DD have a pillar here too? will logan be surprised here as well at the new level of power?

you think DD can hit with sufficient force to ko logan now?

facepalm2 The hell? srsly

Do me a favor and read the post I responded to. The notion that "regular Wolverine" can beat Shadowland-DD is laughable... I never stated my opinion on who would win this match.

Tha C-Master
Lol. Pillars are Logan's kryptonite. And deer.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Galan007
What the f**k?

I don't know what you saw, but I saw DD b*tchslap Wolvie into a pillar across the room. Then I noticed that Wolvie was nowhere to be seen for the entire rest of the issue/fight.

SasuOna
DD is possesed by the Beast and is capable of corrupting all of Earth.
Wolverine is just on fire

This isn't even a contest

carver9
Originally posted by Galan007
The hell? srsly

Do me a favor and read the post I responded to. The notion that "regular Wolverine" can beat Shadowland-DD is laughable... I never stated my opinion on who would win this match.

He really didn't dol much to wolvy and I honestly don't know why wolverine wasn't shown fighting after that toss since he has taken far worse and bounced back up.

Regular wolverine should be enough.

snoopdogg
DD wins.

Kaos sebaceous
I dont agree that regular wolverine is enough.....but the demon wolverine takes this all day

Trackz
THe ONLY reason wolverine was put in shadowland was so Daredevil could own him, I mean he had no reason to appear, he just showed up and got owned, in my opinion it was to show the readers what level DD is at, that being said ShadowLand daredevil still has difficulty fighting the heroes, and had a bit of trouble with spiderman. Demon Wolverine has all of wolverine strengths PLUS the ability to shoot hellfire, control insects, and telekinesis, Demon Wolverine should take this.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Galan007
What the f**k?

I don't know what you saw, but I saw DD b*tchslap Wolvie into a pillar across the room. Then I noticed that Wolvie was nowhere to be seen for the entire rest of the issue/fight.
based on what wolverine takes on average, that could easily be chalked up to pis or a least at least a low showing, neither of which would matte in forum match.

ankur29
Originally posted by Galan007
What the f**k?

I don't know what you saw, but I saw DD b*tchslap Wolvie into a pillar across the room. Then I noticed that Wolvie was nowhere to be seen for the entire rest of the issue/fight.

imho i think he was fine but never reaappeared cause the pillar fell on him, and it's weight> his strength

like in xmen vs atlas , when the robot put the boulder on him

carver9
I think the writer just needed a reason to keep wolvy out of the fight because he could give the coup de grace at any time against dd.

Wolvy was the most dangerous on the battlefield so why include him with the rest of the heros.

Mindset
lol

Juk3n
This amped DD hasn't shown the damage output to put down someone like wolverine especially on a forum. An amped street knocking wolverine out with punches and kicks, yeahumNo. Daredevils head can be seperated from his body , his spine can be severed, the scuffle they had was no where near an accurate reprezentation of anywhere approaching wolverines best.

Regular Wolverine should be enough to put down this version of Daredevil. And on a forum, fighting Omega Red for 24 hours or w/e is so far beyond anything DD can dish out id argue ANY street leveller not amped to a significant degree, ie in the double digit ton range has a super slim chance of taking the Reen.

SasuOna
Originally posted by carver9
I think the writer just needed a reason to keep wolvy out of the fight because he could give the coup de grace at any time against dd.

Wolvy was the most dangerous on the battlefield so why include him with the rest of the heros.

No he was just there to attempt to kill someone like always and got owned. Currently Daredevil is at least stronger than Spider-man and Luke Cage.

Juk3n
Originally posted by SasuOna
Currently Daredevil is at least stronger than Spider-man and Luke Cage. That doesn't mean anything to someone who takes multiple punches from Earths Strongest.

SasuOna
Originally posted by Juk3n
That doesn't mean anything to someone who takes multiple punches from Earths Strongest.

except he didn't take anything. Its like saying Shang chi can take multiple punches from class 100 characters when in reality hes still getting beat.

all it takes to put regular Wolverine down is a pressure point

King Castle
that is not remotely true. logan has never gone down by "a" pressure point.

DD would have to focus entirely to that single function if he wants to bring logan down that way not an impossibility but very unlikely to get sufficient hits before he gets an arm or his head cut off.

SasuOna
Because Wolverine is fast enough to keep up with Daredevil before this? Even while he just got a huge boost in strength and speed while Logan is just on fire........hmmm I wonder who's outclassed now

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
I think the writer just needed a reason to keep wolvy out of the fight because he could give the coup de grace at any time against dd.

Wolvy was the most dangerous on the battlefield so why include him with the rest of the heros. laughing out loud

Mindset
carver has a gift

Bentley
Originally posted by Juk3n
This amped DD hasn't shown the damage output to put down someone like wolverine especially on a forum. An amped street knocking wolverine out with punches and kicks, yeahumNo. Daredevils head can be seperated from his body , his spine can be severed, the scuffle they had was no where near an accurate reprezentation of anywhere approaching wolverines best.

Regular Wolverine should be enough to put down this version of Daredevil. And on a forum, fighting Omega Red for 24 hours or w/e is so far beyond anything DD can dish out id argue ANY street leveller not amped to a significant degree, ie in the double digit ton range has a super slim chance of taking the Reen.


You're mistaking Wolverine's ability to hang with class 100 punches with "Wolverine can only be beaten with class 100 punches".

Juk3n
Originally posted by Bentley
You're mistaking Wolverine's ability to hang with class 100 punches with "Wolverine can only be beaten with class 100 punches".

You think Wolverine is getting beat by punches and kicks by someone who has only demonstrated MINIMAL super human strength? On a Forum fight? Wolverine has taken shot from class 100+ righ? So what do you think th chances are of someone who is class 1 having a higher rate of damage output?

Is anything ive said reaLLY THAT farfetched?

Juk3n
Originally posted by SasuOna
Because Wolverine is fast enough to keep up with Daredevil before this?

Read more Wolverine.

Bentley
It is to some degree. Most of class 100 hits Wolverine has tanked are not aimed with skill or precision, Wolverine is fast and skilled enough to roll them a bit and with his enhanced ability there's enough suspension in disbelief to make him a casual brick killer.

Against martial able opponents his ko record is not nearly as impressive.

Trackz
I think there should be a thread devoted to all the times Wolverine has been ko'd so we can really get a feel for what it takes, I mean daniel way had punisher koing him with a couple of hits, in the avengers captain americas son two-shotted him (which are probably low-end) but tanking shots from World War Hulk is definitely high-end.

Bentley
Originally posted by Trackz
I think there should be a thread devoted to all the times Wolverine has been ko'd so we can really get a feel for what it takes, I mean daniel way had punisher koing him with a couple of hits, in the avengers captain americas son two-shotted him (which are probably low-end) but tanking shots from World War Hulk is definitely high-end.


There is a Wolverine koing thread in the X-men forums, go check it.

StiltmanFTW
Hellverine for now.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by ankur29
imho i think he was fine but never reaappeared cause the pillar fell on him, and it's weight> his strength

like in xmen vs atlas , when the robot put the boulder on him
I think so as well. He pretty much was defeat via plot device.


Originally posted by Juk3n
This amped DD hasn't shown the damage output to put down someone like wolverine especially on a forum. An amped street knocking wolverine out with punches and kicks, yeahumNo. Daredevils head can be seperated from his body , his spine can be severed, the scuffle they had was no where near an accurate reprezentation of anywhere approaching wolverines best.

Regular Wolverine should be enough to put down this version of Daredevil. And on a forum, fighting Omega Red for 24 hours or w/e is so far beyond anything DD can dish out id argue ANY street leveller not amped to a significant degree, ie in the double digit ton range has a super slim chance of taking the Reen.
cosigned I completely agree.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Bentley
It is to some degree. Most of class 100 hits Wolverine has tanked are not aimed with skill or precision, Wolverine is fast and skilled enough to roll them a bit and with his enhanced ability there's enough suspension in disbelief to make him a casual brick killer.

Against martial able opponents his ko record is not nearly as impressive.
Whats this based off of? His Ko record is just fine vs skilled individuals and is out stripped by the amount of times he face bricks. He foughten the hulk 14 times, namor 4 or 5 times ect. His majority of his showings are him tanking absurd amount of blunt force trauma.

King Castle
Originally posted by SasuOna
Because Wolverine is fast enough to keep up with Daredevil before this? Even while he just got a huge boost in strength and speed while Logan is just on fire........hmmm I wonder who's outclassed now no expression

are you serious? Wolverine has always bn faster per his power. he is superhuman across the board superior speed strength, fighting skill due to his training and mutation. plus if you wanna put PIS aside normal DD should get bone broken from wolverine lvl punches since that is what is suppose to happen when it comes to human durability vs his adamanium powered hits.. DD powerless shouldnt and has never bn a serious thread his ability to stay alive in comics is nothing but PIS.

anyways...Demon wolverine has got this and current DD hasnt displayed any power that should legitimately put logan down. Normal logan would win as well.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by King Castle
Normal logan would win as well.

Wouldn't go that far. The Beast is more powerful than Ghost Rider and most likely will be defeated with a plot device, namely the Sapphire Crescent.

King Castle
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wouldn't go that far. The Beast is more powerful than Ghost Rider and most likely will be defeated with a plot device, namely the Sapphire Crescent. a say a decapitation swipe would do it. being more powerful doesnt give you the same resistance to other forms of attack that another character might have.

DD didnt show anything logan hasnt fought regularly and overcome b4

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by King Castle
a say a decapitation swipe would do it. being more powerful doesnt give you the same resistance to other forms of attack that another character might have.

DD didnt show anything logan hasnt fought regularly and overcome b4

Probably yes. But he would have to connect first. World War Daredevil is vastly more skilled than before the possession, as noted by Shang and Rand.

King Castle
but, Rand and shang werent expecting anything that impressive from DD so they were caught with their pants down same for logan who stabbed him and just stared instead of decapitating him like he would any other mook.

DD's fight is not indicative of anyone's standard abilities or full combat potential. it was all pis wanking.

Wolverine2006
I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far. It all seems like a bunch of CIS to me. I don't know how powerful Demon Daredevil a.k.a. DDD will get, but from what I have seen so far it's nothing that normal Wolverine couldn't handle. Same goes for Iron Fist, and Spidey.

Omega Vision
What's with all the butthurt about Shadowland Daredevil?

King Castle
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Probably yes. But he would have to connect first. World War Daredevil is vastly more skilled than before the possession, as noted by Shang and Rand. you are being sarcastic arent you?
confused
you got me. embarrasment

SasuOna
Apparently everything that Beast possessed DD is all down to PIS because of general wank.
I mean to say that base Iron Fist, Shang Chi, or Wolverine could beat him currently is pretty illogical.

For the record Daredevil is faster than wolverine, he has better bullet timing feats throughout his career and better displays of agility. The only time Wolverine ever got a 1 up on DD was when he was wearing his bulky armor costume that slowed him down significantly.

I really don't see how demon wolverine is going to beat the Beast when hes obviously a great deal stronger and faster than Logan. I mean Gorgon gives Wolverine trouble and hes not that stronger than him.

King Castle
you are now comparing Gorgon to DD?facepalm2

i should have just checked your sign up date.uggh

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SasuOna

For the record Daredevil is faster than wolverine, he has better bullet timing feats throughout his career and better displays of agility. The only time Wolverine ever got a 1 up on DD was when he was wearing his bulky armor costume that slowed him down significantly.
No he not, that some bs you made up. There is zero evidences that DD is faster then Wolverine. You keep saying this garbage that he has better feats lets see them. Because it utter bull shit. In fact unlike Wolverine DD has admitted to being physically inferior to capt has admitted to be slower then spiderman ect. Neither of which wolverine has even hinted at being inferior to. Infact Wolverine had spiderman wondering if he was in fact the faster of the two.

also there zero evidence that DD was slower in his black suit, that more BS you came up with.


You honestly have no idea what agility entails, you assume it purely acrobatic which it not, and even then it debatable.


wolverine not a bullet timer, he legit bullet dodger.
Originally posted by SasuOna
really don't see how demon wolverine is going to beat the Beast when hes obviously a great deal stronger and faster than Logan. I mean Gorgon gives Wolverine trouble and hes not that stronger than him.
No it not, there zero evidence he even faster then Wolverine let a lone much greater. That more BS your making up.

Gorgon would destroy DD.

Juk3n
Originally posted by SasuOna

For the record Daredevil is faster than wolverine, he has better bullet timing feats throughout his career and better displays of agility.


You can't show me a SINGLE skill/agility/speed feat of Regular Daredevil that Wolverine hasn't/is unable/ to match..thats right...NOT A SINGLE FEAT.

Prove me wrong.

and

Gorgon would destroy DD.

SasuOna
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
No he not, that some bs you made up. There is zero evidences that DD is faster then Wolverine. You keep saying this garbage that he has better feats lets see them. Because it utter bull shit. In fact unlike Wolverine DD has admitted to being physically inferior to capt has admitted to be slower then spiderman ect. Neither of which wolverine has even hinted at being inferior to. Infact Wolverine had spiderman wondering if he was in fact the faster of the two.
So you want me to prove something but your using flawed ABC logic to make a case about Wolverine which isn't correct anyway. Of course Cap and Spidey are faster than DD and Wolverine. Thats not my point, Daredevil has better bullet timing feats than Wolverine. Current DD is beyond Wolverine as he proved when he overpowered Wolverine and hit him through a stone pillar.
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan

also there zero evidence that DD was slower in his black suit, that more BS you came up with.

Maybe if you actually read Daredevil you would note that they say his armor costume is actually slowing him down because of the armor that he needs for protection. He notes that hes sacrificing speed but he needs that protection the costume gives him.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan

You honestly have no idea what agility entails, you assume it purely acrobatic which it not, and even then it debatable.
Agility is defined as "the ability to change the body's position efficiently, and requires the integration of isolated movement skills using a combination of balance, coordination, speed, reflexes, strength, endurance and stamina."
So yeah regular DD had enhanced human agility. The Beast is amping him beyond that. Demon Wolverine is the same except for being on fire.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan

wolverine not a bullet timer, he legit bullet dodger.

So your saying hes aim dodging and isn't fast enough to block the bullets himself?
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan

No it not, there zero evidence he even faster then Wolverine let a lone much greater. That more BS your making up.

Gorgon would destroy DD.
If Wolverine were faster than DD he wouldn't get consistently defeated by Elektra who is a legit bullet timer just like DD now would he.
Also note I'm talking about Shadowland DD and not regular DD, You inferring that regular DD couldn't beat Gorgon is arguable but saying Shadowland DD isn't capable of doing it is some made up fantasy.

Juk3n
Originally posted by SasuOna
You inferring that regular DD couldn't beat Gorgon is arguable

you're complete lack of knowledge of either character made evident by this one sentence gratz.

The only "arguable" thing about DD vs Gorgon would be, 1) would Gorgon slaughter him within 20 seconds? or 2) within 10 seconds.

Dum Dum Dugan

SasuOna
Originally posted by Juk3n
you're complete lack of knowledge of either character made evident by this one sentence gratz.

The only "arguable" thing about DD vs Gorgon would be, 1) would Gorgon slaughter him within 20 seconds? or 2) within 10 seconds.

Its arguable because it won't be a stomp like you seem to think
A. hes not turning DD to stone
B. Daredevil has way better senses than Wolverine
C. also has telepathy so hes not reading his mind

It would be a fight that DD loses but its not going to be a stomp

In any case Shadowland DD is a great deal stronger and faster than Gorgon.
CIS off he would just rip Gorgon's head off.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SasuOna
Its arguable because it won't be a stomp like you seem to think
A. hes not turning DD to stone
B. Daredevil has way better senses than Wolverine
C. also has telepathy so hes not reading his mind

no it not, only if your a delusional fanboy like yourself, could believe such a notion.

does not need it at all

won't help him at all and wolverine has superior sense of smell and this is fact.

DD has very limmited telepathy which he uses only to communicate with other chaste members. Elektra who has legit telepathy could do nothing to prevent gorgon friend reading her like a book. so as always your full of crap.






Originally posted by SasuOna
would be a fight that DD loses but its not going to be a stomp

In any case Shadowland DD is a great deal stronger and faster than Gorgon.
CIS off he would just rip Gorgon's head off.
no it would be a stomp, he has nothing on gorgon.


No he not, you just keep making up a bunch of crap and trying to present it as fact when it not. He never have the chance to ripp his head off. Gorgon would cut him into pieces well before then.

SasuOna

Dum Dum Dugan

Trackz
marvel nemesis fights were non-canon

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Trackz
marvel nemesis fights were non-canon
Thats not how marvel presented it nor according to most members on the matter.

Trackz
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Thats not how marvel presented it nor according to most members on the matter. a crossover with video-game characters is canon? it's also been stated as a prologue for the video-game, a non-canon event.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Thats not how marvel presented it nor according to most members on the matter.
Didn't you also think the Star Trek/X-Men crossovers were canon?

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Didn't you also think the Star Trek/X-Men crossovers were canon?
I argued it, but more or less jsut busting balls.


This however many people on the board especially elektra supporters, believe is cannon. Marvel did premote it as such. I really see no reason for why it not cannon, it simply like any other mini

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Trackz
a crossover with video-game characters is canon? it's also been stated as a prologue for the video-game, a non-canon event.
It was never stated to my knolwedge as prologue and it was used to premote the game, but it also gave zero indications by marvel that it was ment as anything other then cannon. also the comic came out before the game.

Trackz
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
It was never stated to my knolwedge as prologue and it was used to premote the game, but it also gave zero indications by marvel that it was ment as anything other then cannon. also the comic came out before the game. i checked some of the interviews, on ign especially, it was cited as a type of prologue and also the fact that they used EA characters, who are non-canon, and the event was never referenced outside of the mini at all. In fact theres little to suggest it WAS canon.

King Castle
regardless we know logan is superior then elektra in various lvls..logan showed it when he stopped playin with elektra and no longer wanted to be trained by her.

he out reacted her jumped over her and holster his sword on her back sheath.. elektra was impressed. it all happen between her lunge attack on logan be before she landed.

SasuOna
Nah, the imperfects crossover is a different universe so I can see why people would use it in regards for Elektra feats but overall it holds no canonical merit to the 616 universe. There are other canon instances where Elektra has bested him handily.

Also Echo incapacitated Wolverine by copying Daredevil and Bullseye's moves while she was on her vision quest.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8308/jbnjkmkm.jpg
Its also telling that the use of attacking his nerve centers which beat him are moves she picked up from Daredevil.

King Castle
Originally posted by SasuOna
Nah, the imperfects crossover is a different universe so I can see why people would use it in regards for Elektra feats but overall it holds no canonical merit to the 616 universe. There are other canon instances where Elektra has bested him handily.

Also Echo incapacitated Wolverine by copying Daredevil and Bullseye's moves while she was on her vision quest.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8308/jbnjkmkm.jpg she didnt best him and you seriously need to stop skewing feats.

she used a few nerve blows on logan they all failed. logan finally got mad and popped his claws about to fight back and she stopped fighting and started apologizing.

logan has actually blitz fought spiderman on a level DD is incapable of reaching.. Wolverine has also fought X-23 while simply defending not fighting back and she is acknowledge to have superhuman speed and combat reflexes.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/808704-x235go7_super.png

SasuOna
Originally posted by King Castle
she didnt best him and you seriously need to stop skewing feats.

she used a few nerve blows on logan they all failed. logan finally hot mad and popped his claws about to fight back and she stopped fighting and started apologizing.




A. you clearly see on the scan I posted that he was face down in the snow at one point, implying the blows worked on him.
B. when he popped his claws she had already had him in h2h and it was to tell her he wasn't an animal
C. She beat him while weak and hallucinating during the 4th day of her fast.

No matter how you argue it Wolverine comes out of it not looking superior

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by King Castle
Wolverine has also fought X-23 while simply defending not fighting back and she is acknowledge to have superhuman speed and combat reflexes.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/808704-x235go7_super.png X-23 also beat Wolverine. In that fight.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SasuOna
Nah, the imperfects crossover is a different universe so I can see why people would use it in regards for Elektra feats but overall it holds no canonical merit to the 616 universe. There are other canon instances where Elektra has bested him handily.

Also Echo incapacitated Wolverine by copying Daredevil and Bullseye's moves while she was on her vision quest.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8308/jbnjkmkm.jpg
Its also telling that the use of attacking his nerve centers which beat him are moves she picked up from Daredevil.
lets see them, because I already know your leaving out context.





No she dident, in fact all it said, is it made him angry. stop with all this BS. You made up pretty much everything you have said. I notice how you ignored my responses to you becuase frankly you must know your full of crap.

Dum Dum Dugan

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
X-23 also beat Wolverine. In that fight.
no she dident, he straight up let her. thats far cry from defeating him.

King Castle
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
X-23 also beat Wolverine. In that fight. he was defensive while she was actively trying to kill him. people like to ignore his CIS between fights with the likes of Elektra and x 23. he doesnt want to kill them or hurt them.

Logan has stated to Nightcrawler that he has to hold back his hits or risk killing his friends the painful blows his team mates feel from him are held back hits to keep from breaking bones and killing.

she isnt better fighter as wolverine its his personality to screwed him up when facing her nothing else. Wolverine beat her inside the clun where they 1st met he also grabbed her wrist in mid attack and told her who was overall better.

anyways.. i like this scan.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/31499/890349-wolverine_blue_04.jpg

OneDumbG0
X-23 got a couple of slices in. Then Wolverine got pissed and decided to give her the fight she wanted. Then X-23 straight up beat him. Post the entire fight.

Dum Dum Dugan
To me it pretty clear he holding back while she going all out. He only attacks her a single time.


Originally posted by ExodusCloak
X-23 vs Wolverine

Believe it or not there's actually a stage in this fight where he does start defending himself.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/8467/x23targetx6006fo3.th.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4159/x23targetx6007bw3.th.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3069/x23targetx6008ab3.th.jpghttp://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8710/x23targetx6009vn7.th.jpghttp://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4518/x23targetx6010011ww3.th.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4339/x23targetx6012ap4.th.jpg

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Continued

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5425/x23targetx6013zl9.th.jpghttp://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5539/x23targetx6014gt0.th.jpghttp://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9208/x23targetx6015vt3.th.jpghttp://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2066/x23targetx6016ve4.th.jpghttp://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6060/x23targetx6017zy8.th.jpg

OneDumbG0
To me, it's pretty clear Wolverine lost after getting serious from a couple of cheap shots. Hard.

Dum Dum Dugan
I disagree completely. He attacked only once, then completely stopped. He was trying to reach her, think there was a clear differences between what he was trying to do and what she was trying to do.

SamZED
I actually havent read this particular comic, but yeah.. it's clear Logan isn't going all out, even when he starts fighting back.

OneDumbG0
^ It's clear Logan isn't fighting back until the fourth panel. When the fighting actually begins. Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I disagree completely. He attacked only once, then completely stopped. He was trying to reach her, think there was a clear differences between what he was trying to do and what she was trying to do. He stopped because he was startled by X-23's tactics and because they were that effective.

Just because Wolverine got stopped hard by her strategy doesn't mean Wolverine willingly threw the fight.

Bentley
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Whats this based off of? His Ko record is just fine vs skilled individuals and is out stripped by the amount of times he face bricks. He foughten the hulk 14 times, namor 4 or 5 times ect. His majority of his showings are him tanking absurd amount of blunt force trauma.


My point is, Wolverine is capable of resisting heavy blunt trauma, but that doesn't make him impossible to ko by people with good skill but less strength.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It's clear Logan isn't fighting back until the fourth panel. When the fighting actually begins. He stopped because he was startled by X-23's tactics and because they were that effective.

Just because Wolverine got stopped hard by her strategy doesn't mean Wolverine willingly threw the fight.
No the fact he completely stop fighting back and attacking shows this. No Logan clearly was not fighting back. She was trying to kill him and he had no intentions of killing her which was clear. Even to the point were he freely tells her to kill him, but that she should live. But I am sorry there clear differences between one character having no desire to fight or kill the other, and another character going all out trying to kill them.

If he actaully fought back he would with out a doubt come up on top. she has nothing on him.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Bentley
My point is, Wolverine is capable of resisting heavy blunt trauma, but that doesn't make him impossible to ko by people with good skill but less strength.
It makes it pretty dam hard for them drop him, and it not simply less strength, is thousand of times less strength and force behind there blows. It be extremely difficult for any street level character to defeat wolverine on the forums. His damage soak is simply to high.

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It's clear Logan isn't fighting back until the fourth panel. When the fighting actually begins. He stopped because he was startled by X-23's tactics and because they were that effective.

Just because Wolverine got stopped hard by her strategy doesn't mean Wolverine willingly threw the fight. He didnt throw the fight. But he was far from going all out either. She was going for the kill. He wasn't. He pretty much let her attack him.

Badabing
Originally posted by King Castle
which demon possessed Hero will win?

ko, kill.. forum rules. Originally posted by King Castle
really should wait to comment on both since they are still being written..

dont know how well they will do. Then why did you make the thread? durpalmOriginally posted by carver9
Regular Wolverine can take this version of DD. I seen there recent fight but nothing really happened. DD got stabbed, tossed Wolverine and thats it. Wolverine can take him in my opinion. Yeah, that's not what happened. Logan jumped DD, impaled him and then got put through a pillar never to return (in that comic). Warned for poor interpretation and distorting events to favor one character. facepalm

That said, Wolverine possessed has a a lot of potential given the powerset.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
No the fact he completely stop fighting back and attacking shows this. No Logan clearly was not fighting back. She was trying to kill him and he had no intentions of killing her which was clear. Even to the point were he freely tells her to kill him, but that she should live. But I am sorry there clear differences between one character having no desire to fight or kill the other, and another character going all out trying to kill them.

If he actaully fought back he would with out a doubt come up on top. she has nothing on him. He completely stopped fighting back once he was toppled by X-23. Wolverine gained his desire to fight her when he got pissed off by the fourth page.

Except when X-23 beat him in a fight. Originally posted by SamZED
He didnt throw the fight. But he was far from going all out either. She was going for the kill. He wasn't. He pretty much let her attack him. A character going all out in the most vicious, desperate way possible is not a prerequisite to losing a fight. Wolverine fought her. He lost. And Wolverine never once "let" her attack him. He was trying to evade from the get-go and when he realized he couldn't no-sell her attacks after getting slashed twice, he engaged her. And lost.

This isn't arguable. Read the fight, from the fourth page on. Stop making excuses.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He completely stopped fighting back once he was toppled by X-23. Wolverine gained his desire to fight her when he got pissed off by the fourth page.


He wasent even fighting back. She was going all out and trying to kill him and he was doing no such thing. He wasent even attacking back. He clearly was holding back.





Wolverine has straight up already out fought her before and has complete owned her before showing superior speed. He would with out a doubt beat her if he fought for real.

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except when X-23 beat him in a fight. A character going all out in the most vicious, desperate way possible is not a prerequisite to losing a fight. Wolverine fought her. He lost. And Wolverine never once "let" her attack him. He was trying to evade from the get-go and when he realized he couldn't no-sell her attacks after getting slashed twice, he engaged her. And lost.

This isn't arguable. Read the fight, from the fourth page on. Stop making excuses. Man, even from the said page he continued saying "get off kid" and "what's wrong with you" as in "enough fighting already" and with his claws retraced. Throughout the entire fight he only made one attack while she made 20. Sure we could go with "he lost, she won and the rest doesnt matter" but that'd be ignoring context and in no way would establish character's superiority. That's not an excuse, that's the truth. You should start paying attention to the the context. She was going all out. He was barely fighting back.

King Castle
the thing people should be looking at is if DD, Cap can repeat the same exact defensive maneuvers staying one c@nt hair above X-23 that logan displayed for that brief initial moment with no weapons.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by SamZED
Man, even from the said page he continued saying "get off kid" and "what's wrong with you" as in "enough fighting already" and with his claws retraced. Throughout the entire fight he only made one attack while she made 20. Sure we could go with "he lost, she won and the rest doesnt matter" but that'd be ignoring context and in no way would establish character's superiority. That's not an excuse, that's the truth. You should start paying attention to the the context. She was going all out. He was barely fighting back. Weak-sauce. Just because Wolverine retracted his claws to paw his own wounds and figure out what Laura was doing doesn't mean Wolverine threw the fight.

You can't hold it against Laura that she beat him so quickly that Wolverine only got a couple of swings in. Wolverine only got a couple of swings in because he got toppled so quickly and unexpectedly.

Stop pretending it was otherwise. Imagine yourself in a gunfight, and you're wondering why your opponent is shooting the ground around you and not at you. You realize too late that the floor is about to collapse taking you to your probable death. You lower your gun as the floor collapses. Was your action of putting down your gun at the moment you lost the fight an instance of you holding back and barely fighting back? Are you really going to pretend that you didn't just lose the fight? Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
He wasent even fighting back. She was going all out and trying to kill him and he was doing no such thing. He wasent even attacking back. He clearly was holding back. Yes. He was fighting back. By the time he realized what was happening, it was just too late for him to mount any counter-attack. His inability to immediately assess the critical situation he was in doesn't mean he threw the fight. It was just at that exact moment, he was done. Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Wolverine has straight up already out fought her before and has complete owned her before showing superior speed. He would with out a doubt beat her if he fought for real. Except the one time that X-23 beat him.

Dum Dum Dugan
your skewering what happen, he clearly was holding back. He wasent even attacking back and even retracted his claws, and was asking x-23 what was wrong. While she was going all out to kill him. Clearly not the same thing and no indication of how a fight would transpire. He wasent even fighting back.

OneDumbG0
^ He retracted his claws because he was pawing his own wounds. He was surprised (and cocky over) Laura ceasing her slash attacks in favor of clumping dirt. By the time he realized why he was feeling so drained, it was too late.

This isn't an instance of Wolverine letting Laura beat him. It was an instance of Laura beating Wolverine before he realized what was going on. To hold Wolverine's inability to realize what was going on against Laura and pretend Wolverine wasn't beat is ridiculous: Originally posted by ExodusCloak
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4159/x23targetx6007bw3.th.jpg http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3069/x23targetx6008ab3.th.jpg http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8710/x23targetx6009vn7.th.jpg http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4518/x23targetx6010011ww3.th.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4339/x23targetx6012ap4.th.jpg http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5425/x23targetx6013zl9.th.jpg http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5539/x23targetx6014gt0.th.jpg http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9208/x23targetx6015vt3.th.jpg

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Weak-sauce. Just because Wolverine retracted his claws to paw his own wounds and figure out what Laura was doing doesn't mean Wolverine threw the fight.

You can't hold it against Laura that she beat him so quickly that Wolverine only got a couple of swings in. Wolverine only got a couple of swings in because he got toppled so quickly and unexpectedly.

Stop pretending it was otherwise. Imagine yourself in a gunfight, and you're wondering why your opponent is shooting the ground around you and not at you. You realize too late that the floor is about to collapse taking you to your probable death. You put down your gun as the floor collapses. Was your action of putting down your gun at the moment you lost the fight an instance of you holding back and barely fighting back? Are you really going to pretend that you didn't just lose the fight? Yes. He was fighting back. By the time he realized what was happening, it was just too late for him to mount any counter-attack. His inability to immediately assess the critical situation he was in doesn't mean he threw the fight. It was just at that exact moment, he was done.

Except the one time that X-23 beat him.
"Throwing the fight" and "holding back BIG time" isnt the same thing.

He retracted his claws "to paw his wounds"? He was standing there and not fighting. You're trying to make it sound like he couldnt throw attacks because she was blitzing him thw whole time or something. And that's ridiculous. erm


1) He had more than plenty of opportunities to hurt her back that he didn't take.
2) He retracted his claws because he didnt want to kill her.
3) He tried to talk to her and convince to stop fighting.
4) She even climbed on his back and he just SLAPPED her off when he could've stabbed her instead.

That's called "going all out" in your book? You seem to be so interested in proving that Logan is somehow inferior that you ignore clear facts, man. Context. Ignoring context I could prove that J Jonah Jameson can beat Spider-man in h2h. But it doesnt work that way in a comicbook vs forum. So get over it.

PS: And if I were in a gunfight I wouldnt just stand there half of the fight letting my opponent shoot me in the legs and throat. Nor would I drop my gun or slap my opponent instead of shooting him when I get the opportunity. And I sure wouldnt go "C'mone man! Enough already!" while he's shooting me in the face...

Dum Dum Dugan
to try an pretend that was any indication of how a fight would go on the forum is absurd. He was clearly holding back while she was going all out. It was clear he had zero intentions of killing her and for purposes was not taking the fight remotely serous.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SamZED
"Throwing the fight" and "holding back BIG time" isnt the same thing.

He retracted his claws "to paw his wounds"? He was standing there and not fighting. You're trying to make it sound like he couldnt throw attacks because she was blitzing him or something. That's ridiculous. erm


1) He had more than plenty of opportunities to hurt her back that he didn't take.
2) He retracted his claws because he didnt want to kill her.
3) He tried to talk to her and convince to stop fighting.
4) She even climbed on his back and he just SLAPPED her off when he could've stabbed her instead.

That's called "going all out" in your book? You seem to be so interested in proving that Logan is somehow inferior that you ignore clear facts, man. Context. Ignoring context I could prove that J Jonah Jameson can beat Spider-man in h2h. But it doesnt work that way in a comicbook vs forum. So get over it.
cosigned

King Castle
Originally posted by SamZED
"Throwing the fight" and "holding back BIG time" isnt the same thing.

He retracted his claws "to paw his wounds"? He was standing there and not fighting. You're trying to make it sound like he couldnt throw attacks because she was blitzing him or something. That's ridiculous. erm


1) He had more than plenty of opportunities to hurt her back that he didn't take.
2) He retracted his claws because he didnt want to kill her.
3) He tried to talk to her and convince to stop fighting.
4) She even climbed on his back and he just SLAPPED her off when he could've stabbed her instead.

That's called "going all out" in your book? You seem to be so interested in proving that Logan is somehow inferior that you ignore clear facts, man. Context. Ignoring context I could prove that J Jonah Jameson can beat Spider-man in h2h. But it doesnt work that way in a comicbook vs forum. So get over it. i also concur

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by SamZED
"Throwing the fight" and "holding back BIG time" isnt the same thing.

He retracted his claws "to paw his wounds"? He was standing there and not fighting. You're trying to make it sound like he couldnt throw attacks because she was blitzing him or something. That's ridiculous. erm


1) He had more than plenty of opportunities to hurt her back that he didn't take.
2) He retracted his claws because he didnt want to kill her.
3) He tried to talk to her and convince to stop fighting.
4) She even climbed on his back and he just SLAPPED her off when he could've stabbed her instead.

That's called "going all out" in your book? You seem to be so interested in proving that Logan is somehow inferior that you ignore clear facts, man. Context. Ignoring context I could prove that J Jonah Jameson can beat Spider-man in h2h. But it doesnt work that way in a comicbook vs forum. So get over it. Blue Marvel and Thor throw down and trade a few punches. Thor steps back, and throws Mjolnir at Blue Marvel's head. Blue Marvel dodges it and stands with his hands at his hips pontificating about his speed and how Thor can't win the fight. Mjolnir smashes him in the back of the head on its return trip and he's so stunned that a follow-up blow lays him out.

Blue Marvel wasn't serious about fighting and retracted his fists and wasn't attacking or fighting back? You're going to pretend that it was a non-fight and Blue Marvel never lost? It's not Thor's fault that Blue Marvel didn't figure out what was going on until it was too late. And here, it isn't Laura's fault either with Wolverine.

I'm sorry that Wolverine got taken by surprise. That doesn't excuse the fact that he lost the fight. Taking the time for typical superhero banter during a fight =/= holding back.

Don't be so obtuse.

King Castle
you are claiming X-23 is the better skilled fighter and that reason alone why she won not that the other was holding back out of compassion.

you take cis into account logan is massively holding back compared to how he fights others.

Logan fights different with enemies then how he fights heroes let alone family.

X-23 snt the better skilled fighter nor could she win in a forum fight.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by King Castle
you are claiming X-23 is the better skilled fighter and that reason alone why she won not that the other was holding back out of compassion.Don't put words into my mouth. Just because you find that fake argument -- that nobody has ever posited in this thread, much less me -- easier to debate against doesn't justify you trying to twist this conversation that way. Originally posted by King Castle
you take cis into account logan is massively holding back compared to how he fights others.

Logan fights different with enemies then how he fights heroes let alone family.

X-23 snt the better skilled fighter nor could she win in a forum fight. More of the same straw-man.

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Blue Marvel and Thor throw down and trade a few punches. Thor steps back, and throws Mjolnir at Blue Marvel's head. Blue Marvel dodges it and stands with his hands at his hips pontificating about his speed and how Thor can't win the fight. Mjolnir smashes him in the back of the head on its return trip and he's so stunned that a follow-up blow lays him out.

Blue Marvel wasn't serious about fighting and retracted his fists and wasn't attacking or fighting back? You're going to pretend that it was a non-fight and Blue Marvel never lost? It's not Thor's fault that Blue Marvel didn't figure out what was going on until it was too late. And here, it isn't Laura's fault either with Wolverine.

I'm sorry that Wolverine got taken by surprise. That doesn't excuse the fact that he lost the fight. Taking the time for typical superhero banter during a fight =/= holding back.

Don't be so obtuse. TBH haven't read the fight so cant tell.
But if character A is holding back while character B is going all out and wins the fight because charater A refuses to hurt him, that doesnt make character B superior.

"If I were in a gunfight I wouldnt just stand there half of the fight letting my opponent shoot me in the legs and throat. Nor would I drop my gun or SLAP my opponent instead of shooting him when I get the opportunity. And I sure wouldnt go "C'mone man! Enough already!" while he's shooting me in the face... " But if i DID ALL THAT that sure as hell wouldnt establish my enemy's superiority over me.

X23 threw few dozens attacks. Logan threw one and didnt even attempt to throw any other attacks when he had the chance and pretty much willingly "dropped" his weapons. Logan, was holding back, she wasn't. Would never be the case in a vs forum fight.

OneDumbG0
^ It's a hypothetical situation that illustrates your transparent attempts to paint the fight as anything else other than X-23 beating Wolverine in a fight. Apparently, if Blue Marvel ever engages in typical superhero banter or lowers his fists once during a fight... he is holding back and never loses from then on.

Typical superhero banter =/= Logan holding back. Wolverine retracting his claws by the time he was already beat =/= Logan holding back.

And Laura managing to land more blows than Wolverine = Logan holding back? Nice circular argument. Trying to prove that Wolverine was holding back before he was bled out by pointing out that he was holding back: weak-sauce. And Wolverine not going balls-to-the-wall to his most vicious limits possible = Logan isn't in a fight so technically he can't win or lose? Dumb-sauce.

King Castle
the argument really comes down to who can replicate wolverines evasive maneuver before being cut, one i throw out there is spiderman.

but, i dont see Daredevil or Captain America(no shield) able to do the same.

who could legitametly block and grab logan's attacks in h2h?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/19940/516115-wolverine_05.jpg

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It's a hypothetical. And it completely reveals your transparent attempts to paint the fight as anything else other than X-23 beating Wolverine in a fight.

Typical superhero banter =/= Logan holding back. Wolverine retracting his claws by the time he was already beat =/= Logan holding back. Laura managing to land more blows than Wolverine =/= Logan holding back.

Nice circular arguments. Trying to prove that Wolverine was holding back before he was bled out by pointing out that he was holding back is weak-sauce. What exactly is hypocritical about my post?

Logan's typical banter = "I'm gonna gut you, bub!" or sometimes "RAAAAAGH!!!!" when he's slicing people left and right halfa dozen swipes a second. NOT "whats wrong with you kid?" or "we dont have to do this" or "knock it off". If you honestly believe that it is in character for Wolverine to retract claws and stop fighting once he starts losing i have to question your knowledge about the character.

Weak-sauce is your interpretation of the fight.

We have Logan trying to convince her to stop the fight - you say its his typical banter.
We have Logan retract his claws when he could've been stabbing her- you say he did it because he gave up.
We have Logan only throwing one attack and refusing to throw any more- you say he was going all out and couldnt throw more than one.erm
Weak-sauce?

Him holing back shouldt be even a debate. It's clear to pretty much everyone here.

King Castle
Originally posted by Badabing
Then why did you make the thread? durpalm facepalm

same reason i do most things.. b/c i can. smokin'

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by SamZED
What exactly is hypocritical about my post?

Logan's typical banter = "I'm gonna gut you, bub!" or sometimes "RAAAAAGH!!!!" when he's slicing people left and right halfa dozen swipes a second. NOT "whats wrong with you kid?" or "we dont have to do this" or "knock it off". If you honestly believe that it is in character for Wolverine to retract claws and stop fighting once he starts losing i have to question your knowledge about the character.

Weak-sauce is your interpretation of the fight.

We have Logan trying to convince her to stop the fight - you say its his typical banter.
We have Logan retract his claws when he could've been stabbing her- you say he did it because he gave up.
We have Logan only throwing one attack and refusing to throw any more- you say he was going all out and couldnt throw more than one.erm
Weak-sauce? 1) Wolverine being bewildered that Laura is retracting her claws and is throwing dirt on him =/= Wolverine holding back.
2) Wolverine trying to figure out what Laura is doing =/= Wolverine holding back.
3) Wolverine overconfidently chastizing her fighting methods with typical superhero banter =/= Wolverine holding back.
4) Wolverine being beaten before he realized it =/= Wolverine holding back.
5) Wolverine being beaten before he could throw out more attacks =/= Wolverine holding back.

That's just Wolverine being beaten in a fight before he could throw out more attacks. Originally posted by SamZED
Him holing back shouldt be even a debate. It's clear to pretty much everyone here. The only thing clear here, is somehow... someway... you're trying to pretend that Wolverine didn't get beat by X-23 here: Originally posted by ExodusCloak
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4159/x23targetx6007bw3.th.jpg http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3069/x23targetx6008ab3.th.jpg http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8710/x23targetx6009vn7.th.jpg http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4518/x23targetx6010011ww3.th.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4339/x23targetx6012ap4.th.jpg http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5425/x23targetx6013zl9.th.jpg http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5539/x23targetx6014gt0.th.jpg http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9208/x23targetx6015vt3.th.jpg

King Castle
compare the fight with Luara with what scans of Logan's brain pattern being in a down and dirty and then say he was fighting to the best of his ability let alone at his normal or average showings.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6093/berserkerragedg2.jpg

OneDumbG0
^ Apparently, his olympic gymnast gold medal routine-equivalent prowess coupled with beating four chess computers wasn't enough to figure out in time that Laura had already beat him by the time Wolverine slapped her away.

King Castle
what about when he killed shingen and disarmed the angel of death fighting three to one?
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5485/azraelshogun7vy3.jpg

or when he fought lady deathstrike and sabretooth b4 the hunter in darkness showed up to help, or when he fought Vermin and bloodscream or when he fought lady D and Psylocke?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=486007&pagenumber=20
you seriously being disingenuous to believe logan was fighting to the best of his ability with X-23 or that she is capable of beating him with no outside factors..

logan was not trying to fight back or kill her big difference in his abilities in a high stake battle.

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) Wolverine being bewildered that Laura is retracting her claws and is throwing dirt on him =/= Wolverine holding back.
2) Wolverine trying to figure out what Laura is doing =/= Wolverine holding back.
3) Wolverine overconfidently chastizing her fighting methods with typical superhero banter =/= Wolverine holding back.
4) Wolverine being beaten before he realized it =/= Wolverine holding back.
5) Wolverine being beaten before he could throw out more attacks =/= Wolverine holding back.


That's just Wolverine being beaten in a fight before he could throw out more attacks.

The only thing clear here, is somehow... someway... Wolverine didn't get beat by X-23 here:
1) Logan only doing the defence without even popping out his claws for 4 entire pages = Logan holding back.
2) Logan saying "cut it out", "enough, kid", "we dont have to do this" in attempt to convince her to stop fighting suggest he didnt want to fight at all. And yes = Logan holding back.
3) Logan retracting his claws after throwing ONLY. ONE. SINGLE. ATTACK. IN 9 frikkin pages of the fight = Logan holding back. All the proof you could possibly need. But there's also...
4) Logan not taking the opportunity to gut her = Logan holding back.
5) Logan fighting a family member or friend = holding back by default.

And 6) you suggesting that Logan going all out couldn't throw more than 1 attack in 9 pages of the fight = some kind of bias. Not sure if it's hatred for Logan or love for Laura. Eitherway, you're wrong here, man. You have two other people who know Logan's character tell you that's NOT how he fights going all out. Hence that's NOT how the fight would go in a forum.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by King Castle
what about when he killed shingen and disarmed the angel of death fighting three to one?
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5485/azraelshogun7vy3.jpg

or when he fought lady deathstrike and sabretooth b4 the hunter in darkness showed up to help, or when he fought Vermin and bloodscream or when he fought lady D and Psylocke?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=486007&pagenumber=20
you seriously being disingenuous to believe logan was fighting to the best of his ability with X-23 or that she is capable of beating him with no outside factors..

logan was not trying to fight back or kill her big difference in his abilities in a high stake battle. Nice straw-man again. Wolverine lost the fight. I'm sorry that you can't actually see that.

Wolverine going balls-to-the-wall in his most vicious and perfectly balanced demonstration of skill and ferocity ever on-panel isn't a prerequisite to him being in a fight, much less winning/losing said fight. Thor fighting Gladiator and not going balls-to-the-wall with god-blasts and soul sucks and planetary-scale blows every second means Thor wasn't actually fighting Gladiator so he can technically never lose?

Acting like Wolverine wasn't fighting back when Laura had already beaten him = dumb-sauce. This is a classic instance of being "knocked out before hitting the mat." And no amount of prevarications changes that Wolverine lost. It was one fight. It's not the end of the world.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by SamZED
1) Logan only doing the defence without even popping out his claws for 4 entire pages = Logan holding back.He had already healed by then. Nice straw-man. We both know the fight only started by the fourth page. We've both said as much. Stop pretending like it didn't. Originally posted by SamZED
2) Logan saying "cut it out", "enough, kid", "we dont have to do this" in attempt to convince her to stop fighting suggest he didnt want to fight at all. And yes = Logan holding back.That's Logan being foolish enough to think that Laura isn't fighting effectively. After all, why would she retract her own claws and throw dirt at him? He found out too late. Originally posted by SamZED
3) Logan retracting his claws after throwing ONLY. ONE. SINGLE. ATTACK. IN 9 frikkin pages of the fight = Logan holding back. All the proof you could possibly need. But there's also... He retracted them after he was beaten. By the time he slapped her away, he had bled out too much to keep up with Laura. It's not Laura's fault that she beat him so fast that he only got one good attack in. Laura was just that clever. Originally posted by SamZED
4) Logan not taking the opportunity to gut her = Logan holding back.Logan not gutting her before he lost the fight =/= Logan refused to gut her. What a transparent projection. Originally posted by SamZED
5) Logan fighting a family member or friend = holding back by default. Gimme a break. Originally posted by SamZED
And 6) you suggesting that Logan going all out couldn't throw more than 1 attack in 9 pages of the fight = some kind of bias. Not sure if it's hatred for Logan or love for Laura. Eitherway, you're wrong here, man. You have two other people who know Logan's character tell you that's NOT how he fights going all out. Hence that's NOT how the fight would go in a forum. Going all out =/= prerequisite to being in a fight. I'm sorry your sh1tty straw-mans don't change the fact that Wolverine got into a fight and lost. Superman has to go all-out to be in a fight and lose a fight? You're really pretending that Superman is technically not fighting unless he is T-Vo'ing and super-whistling with planetary-scale heat vision and moon-busting punches while vibrating intangible all in a single nanosecond? Weak-sauce.

SamZED
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He had already healed by then. Nice straw-man. We both know the fight only started by the fourth page. What you realy meant to say is - by the fourth page Logan actually made ONE single attack. That was the only time he threw an attack at all, he didnt try later even though he could've. While X was fighting the whole time starting with page # uno.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

We've both said as much. Stop pretending like it didn't. That's Logan being foolish enough to think that Laura isn't fighting effectively. Why would he think that? More importantly, how saying "cut it out" or "stop" means he's being confident? It only means he doesnt want to fight. And no, it's NOTHING like his usual banter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

After all, why would she retract her own claws and throw dirt at him? He found out too late. Because she was using the dirt so his wounds wont heal and dint need claws at that particular second but popped them out a second later? While Logan retracted them for good and was just standing there. And didnt pop em out later when she did.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

He retracted them after he was beaten. Now you're speculating. He wasnt beaten, he was standing there and was just fine but NOT fighting even though he COULD'VE. Logan fought with few dozen bullets in his chest, he fought while being on fire and fought with blades and arrows sticking out of his back and neck. But here he gets some dirt in his cuts, suddenly retracts his claws and surrernders because he's beaten? Seriosuly, man???

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

By the time he slapped her away, he had bled out too much to keep up with Laura. It's not Laura's fault that she beat him so fast that he only got one good attack in. Laura was just that clever.
Again, argument built on speculation. "bled out" He was standing there and wasnt showing any signs of losing his counciousness or even being that hurt. He was well capable of fighting but didn't. You suggesting that in 9 whole pages while she was jumping around, grabbing dirt etc he wasnt fast enough to throw more than one attack? That is.. not even funny.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Logan not gutting her before he lost the fight =/= Logan refused to gut her. Logan not gutting her when he had the chance = holding back.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

What a transparent projection. Gimme a break. Going all out =/= prerequisite to being in a fight. Really? So there's no difference between going all out and holding back? Let me get this straight, you believe that in an all out fight the RHINO would be beating the crap outta Silver Surfer for 10 whole minutes before Surfer finally beats him? Because that's what happened in their fight where Surfer was holding back big time. You think it would've went the same if he was going all out from the start?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm sorry your sh1tty straw-mans don't change the fact that Wolverine got into a fight and lost. Ugh.. Your entire argument in one sentence - "screw context, Logan lost, the rest doesnt matter, even if he wasnt fighting at all".
Ang going by this logic - JJJ > Spider-man, Rhino = Silver Surfer, and Aunt May > Vulture.

Laura was going all out, Logan was barely fighting. So he lost.

Anyway, I'll reply for your next post tomorrow. It's getting late. But please remember this -
3) Logan retracting his claws after throwing ONLY. ONE. SINGLE. ATTACK. IN 9 frikkin pages of the fight = Logan holding back. All the proof you could possibly need.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by SamZED
What you realy meant to say is - by the fourth page Logan actually made ONE single attack. That was the only time he threw an attack at all, he didnt try later even though he could've. While X was fighting the whole time starting with page # uno.Fight started on the fourth page. You can't seriously be arguing that Wolverine getting slashed three times and healing gave Laura this incalculable advantage going in. Logan only getting one single attack in =/= Logan refused to attack but once. Originally posted by SamZED
Why would he think that? More importantly, how saying "cut it out" or "stop" means he's being confident? It only means he doesnt want to fight. And no, it's NOTHING like his usual banter.Read the comic. He's obviously oblivious and confused as to why Laura is retracting her claws and resorting to caking him with dirt. Him declaring just a few panels earlier, "You don't wanna listen. Fine. Then I'll make you listen." and actually attacking Laura just several panels earlier means he didn't desire a fight but he was fighting. Originally posted by SamZED
Because she was using the durt so his wounds wont heal and dint need claws at that particular second but popped them out a second later? While Logan retracted them and was just standing there. And didnt pop em out later when she did. Logan was done at that point. Don't pretend he wasn't. Originally posted by SamZED
Now you're speculating. He wasnt beaten, he was standing there and was just fine but NOT fighting even though he COULD'VE. Logan fought with few dozen bullets in his chest, he fought while being on fire and fought with blades and arrows sticking out of his back and neck. But here he gets some dirt in his cuts, suddenly retracts his claws and surrernders because he's beaten? Seriosuly, man??? YOU'RE THE ONE ARGUING THAT LOGAN SURRENDERED AFTER ONE ATTACK. Jebus flippin Christ! Great job reflecting the incredulity of your position in your own face. Originally posted by SamZED
Again, argument built on speculation. "bled out" He was standing there and wasnt showing any signs of losing his counciousness or even being that hurt. He was well capable of fighting but didn't. You suggesting in all 9 pages while she was jumping around, grabbing dirt etc he couldnt throw more than one attack if he wanted to is.. not even funny.

Logan not gutting her when he had the chance = holding back. Good job projecting your speculative hopes and dreams onto me. Wolverine starts off holding back. Not fighting. Gets pissed off after being roughed up. He starts fighting... and... never actually fights. Because... he lost the fight. Somehow... Wolverine losing a fight means he never was actually fighting. Stupendous butt-hurt.

Right. Logan clearly had a chance to gut her just because. Nice circular argument. Originally posted by SamZED
lol really? So there's no difference between going all out and holding back? Let me get this straight, you believe that in an all out fight the RHINO would be beating the crap outta Silver Surfer for 10 whole minutes before Surfer finally wins BECAUSE that's WHAT happened in their fight where Surfer was holding back big time? That's the kind of logic you're using.Who said there's no difference between going balls-to-the-wall and holding back? Nobody? Good. Another desperate straw-man that I've pointed out half a dozen times. Get in your learning-disorder-riddled head: not going balls-to-the-wall =/= necessarily holding back such that it disqualifies the entire fight from even being in a fight. Originally posted by SamZED
Ugh.. Your entire argument in one sentence - "screw context, Logan lost, the rest doesnt matter, even if he wasnt fighting at all".
Ang going by this logic - JJJ > Spider-man, Rhino = Silver Surfer, and Aunt May > Vulture.

Laura was going all out, Logan was barely fighting. So he lost. He lost a fight. Get over it.

Logan was barely fighting before he decided to fight and was barely fighting after he lost the fight. Get over your bleeding butt-hurt. Logan did.





Thor hasn't god-blasted in at least 90% of his fights. That must mean he was never actually fighting in 90% of his fights. Therefore, 90% of his fights don't actually count as fights. So... he never lost any of those non-fights... because he wasn't actually fighting.

WTF.

King Castle
by your logic DD beating spidey in comics translates to a legitimate win.

OneDumbG0
^ Here's a suggestion for you as a change of pace: speak English and make sense.

In the meantime, I love this argument: Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thor hasn't god-blasted in at least 90% of his fights. That must mean he was never actually fighting in 90% of his fights. Therefore, 90% of his fights don't actually count as fights. So... he never lost any of those non-fights... because he wasn't actually fighting.

King Castle
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Here's a suggestion for you as a change of pace: speak English and make sense.

In the meantime, I love this argument: there is no need to be rude to me. how about being civil. erm

my statement stands.

OneDumbG0
^ by your logic Wolverine wins against Thanos

Y'see? I can make blanket statements without providing any context or making any references with which to merit actual discussion. I'm not a mind-reader. And I shouldn't have to lay out a red carpet and invite you to explain your bald assertions or engage in guessing-game exercises trying to figure out what the hell it is you're trying to say.

But if that's your expectation, fine. My statement stands too.

Juk3n
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman is technically not fighting unless he is T-Vo'ing and super-whistling with planetary-scale heat vision and moon-busting punches while vibrating intangible all in a single nanosecond? Weak-sauce.

oh he's in a fight, but the question remains is he fighting to the best of his ability? ESPECIALLY when forum battles are concerend. Ie a situation when one combatant WONT be trying o reason with the other..

i always assumed fighting to kill at the best of your ability = going all out. With a straite face, did that fight with x-23 look like a Wolverine going all out? confused

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Juk3n
oh he's in a fight, but the question remains is he fighting to the best of his ability? ESPECIALLY when forum battles are concerend. Ie a situation when one combatant WONT be trying o reason with the other..

i always assumed fighting to kill at the best of your ability = going all out. With a straite face, did that fight with x-23 look like a Wolverine going all out? confused That might be your question. But that's not what this argument is about. It's about whether X-23 beat Wolverine in that fight: Originally posted by King Castle
Wolverine has also fought X-23 while simply defending not fighting back and she is acknowledge to have superhuman speed and combat reflexes.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/808704-x235go7_super.png Originally posted by OneDumbG0
X-23 also beat Wolverine. In that fight. Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
no she dident, he straight up let her. thats far cry from defeating him.

Dum Dum Dugan
She was able to while going all out able to defeat a holding back wolverine, which is completely irrelevent, becuase he not be holding back in forum match.

SasuOna
We know Echo got a win over Wolverine in h2h by copying Daredevil and Bullseye's fighting style.

-Shadowland DD tanked getting stabbed, overpowered Wolverine and hit him through a stone pillar.
-Daredevil has better senses than Wolverine baring his sense of smell which has no actual use in a fight anyway.
-Wolverine was only ever able to keep up with DD while he was slowed down with his armor costume.
-Daredevil could even predict when Logan is going to pop his claws by listening to his body.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
She was able to while going all out able to defeat a holding back wolverine, which is completely irrelevent, becuase he not be holding back in forum match. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phail06.jpg

King Castle
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That might be your question. But that's not what this argument is about. It's about whether X-23 beat Wolverine in that fight: context pls the response was to the person who said that Daredevil is faster then wolverine. my scan was to show if Daredevil could duplicate the blitz defensive maneuver that logan showed with x-23.

@ sasuona

Echo did not beat wolverine, her h2h skills are not even close to logans standard feat scans not close by a mile. best she got were some hit and if it were a point system maybe she could score enough to win. the fight on panel ended before Logan started fighting if Echo not surrendered in the next panel b/c she realized who he was when he popped his claws she would have bn dog food.

you are sh#$ talkin about a guy who can take over a thousand hand ninjas with only one hit... who has fought Ogun, stick and other various masters and won.

anyways... here is a good speed feat for logan immediately after being tortured & wounded close range dodging
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/UncannyX-Men498Large-14.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/UncannyX-Men498Large-15.jpg

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by King Castle
context pls the response was to the person who said that Daredevil is faster then wolverine. my scan was to show if Daredevil could duplicate the blitz defensive maneuver that logan showed with x-23. Yes. And you failed to provide the context that X-23 actually beat Wolverine in that fight you referenced. I provided it. And now somehow... if Wolverine loses a fight, he actually wasn't fighting to begin with and therefore it doesn't count as a loss.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SasuOna
We know Echo got a win over Wolverine in h2h by copying Daredevil and Bullseye's fighting style.

you just made that up completely. All she was able to do was get him angry. So now getting some one angry equates to winning?

Originally posted by SasuOna
Shadowland DD tanked getting stabbed, overpowered Wolverine and hit him through a stone pillar.
Yea and I showed a scan of wolverine going through several pillars then getting repeatedly getting hit by class 100 and not going out. It was a plot device that the stone pillar happen to fall on him.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Daredevil has better senses than Wolverine baring his sense of smell which has no actual use in a fight anyway.
actaully it can be he used it to tell of attacks before they occur quite a few times. I also shown a scan of wolverine already sensing an attack before it occurs.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Wolverine was only ever able to keep up with DD while he was slowed down with his armor costume.
wolverine has never once had trouble keeping up with DD. In fact I even posted a feat of speed for wolverine which I notice you never matched, but simply sent irrelevent red herring which were not the least bit comparable.


Originally posted by SasuOna
Daredevil could even predict when Logan is going to pop his claws by listening to his body.
Thats completely irrelevent.

King Castle
@sasu

just to let you know Logan was blocking her attacks at the beginning again he was purely defense until he started getting riled up.

here is how it ended:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9598/daredevilv20540506.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4928/daredevilv20540708.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1298/daredevilv20540910.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8643/daredevilv205411.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1030/daredevilv205412.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2215/daredevilv205413.jpg

SasuOna
Originally posted by King Castle


@ sasuona

Echo did not beat wolverine, her h2h skills are not even close to logans standard feat scans not close by a mile. best she got were some hit and if it were a point system maybe she could score enough to win. the fight on panel ended before Logan started fighting if Echo not surrendered in the next panel b/c she realized who he was when he popped his claws she would have bn dog food.

you are sh#$ talkin about a guy who can take over a thousand hand ninjas with only one hit... who has fought Ogun, stick and other various masters and won.

anyways... here is a good speed feat for logan immediately after being tortured & wounded close range dodging

You keep making up bogus claims that somehow Echo isn't comparable to Wolverine in H2H when its shown that all she had to do to incapacitate him was copy DD and Bullseye's moves.
The fight in question we even see him hit the ground. Everything after that is wolverine attacking her and not being able to put her down.
Her later realizes shes hallucinating, so he pops his claws to show her hes not an animal.

If Echo could beat Wolverine when she was disorientated and had been fasting for 4 days. Shes obviously above him in H2H.

As for Daredevil having speed feats comparable to Wolverine
Using his claws to cut the barrels of guns is not a speed feat. Jumping before a soldier fires at you is not a speed feat. All hes really doing is blitzing human reaction times.
A real speed feat is when you react to something that has already been fired. Wolverine lacks these feats while Daredevil has an abundance of these feats.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7061/hvhnjmkm.jpg
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2474/bhvhbja.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1598/hbjnkmkq.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/378/hbhnjmkmad.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/963/hbhjkmw.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7502/jbjjmkma.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8549/bbjnkma.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/551/jbjmlmla.jpg
Yeah until I see Wolverine legitimately dodge or deflect something after it was fired at him I'm not believing hes as fast as DD or Spider-man for that matter.

Dum Dum Dugan
hahaahahah this is just laughable, I going to destroy your entire arguement, whats even worse, is your not even reading the comic correctly, but don't worry I make so to go in detail later when I make the full response, but it may be a bit.

SasuOna
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
hahaahahah this is just laughable, I going to destroy your entire arguement, whats even worse, is your not even reading the comic correctly, but don't worry I make so to go in detail later when I make the full response, but it may be a bit.
I can imagine David Mack's art must be hard for you to interpret but going from straw man to straw man after you keep getting called out on being wrong in this thread isn't helping you prove anything.
Anyway
-So I bring up the fact that Echo incapacitated Wolverine while using DD and Bullseye's moves.
which is true seeing as we see him hit the ground after this was stated.
-Wolverine gets up and gets serious trying to put her down.
-She makes more comments about Wolverine's fight style
-makes a comment about seeing his breath and him getting slower
-Wolverine pops his claws cause he can't handle her in H2H

You say I'm not reading the comic correctly but when you won't even acknowledge that while Echo was disorientated and fasting for 3 days Logan still couldn't put her down with h2h this claim is just laughable.

The point about Echo beating Wolverine is sound because in the end he couldn't handle her in H2h and had to pop his claws.

King Castle
cant believe someone can lowball a character to the point they think a olympic human is equal to a superhuman with hyper reflexes and century of skill but i'll bite.

wolverine speed/agility is able to take on hydra, aim, hand ninjas without anyone getting a good look at him and thinking he is three people.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1253/wolvieiscapgp1.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6516/wolvieiscap2us7.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5071/wolvieiscap3ri1.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9290/wolvieisbeastlf2.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2259/wolvieisbeast2qq0.jpg

disappears in front of nightcrawler
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6018/wolverinedissapearsak5.jpg

hand movement fast enough to strip a cyborg down in mid swing.
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2959/wolverine40pe3.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7945/wolverine41gz4.jpg

chases down cyclops and cuts his knife without cyclops seeing him
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/wolverinespeedmcp01.jpg
dodging uzi fire close range.
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7562/wpyrate0918op3.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4812/wolverinev21810hr3me2.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7831/groupbulletdodgeab7.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4418/groupbulletdodge2sj2.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3770/weaponx020018.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1481/wolverinewx030007.jpg

weaves through the gunfire
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5286/bulletweaveas5.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9949/bullets8ou1.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/43/bulletdodgeww6.jpg
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4942/76519loganuke2tj4.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3962/76525loganuke3jt3.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3648/autododgedw2.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8318/autododge2ux7.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/More%20Fights/Wolverine__Doop_001_006.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/More%20Fights/Wolverine__Doop_001_007.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5475/dodginges0.jpg

Deadpool
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4491/wo21dcp0008kz9.jpg
Scalphunter
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1841/sabesfasttakedownzz9.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2212/scalphunterdodgingss0.jpg


daredevil surprised that logan is dodging gunfire close range and running at the shooter
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2002/ddbulletdodgekh3.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/51/ddbulletdodge2kw2.jpg

blocks with claws rocket darts/lazer fire/reflex
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7895/rocketpowereddartblockhm5.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1578/reflexes3vq6.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2007/wolv2mz1.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8943/wolvvd5.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3559/reflexes1bi5.jpg
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6044/catchesdartag2.jpg
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/3575/wolviemd1lucybutlerdcp0nx6.jpg
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/7863/wfc9011.jpg
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2714/wolviemrx030.jpg
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1990/wolviemrx032.jpg

blocks/dodges laser blast
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/axm-017.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/851/lasers.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7770/cyklopsdodge.jpg
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/970/beamdodgeld7.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1088/wolvielasera.jpg

agility
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/WMD_04_Oroboros_DCP_018.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/WMD_04_Oroboros_DCP_020.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3753/livinglightningfj9.jpg

makes spidey doubt himself
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/235/781531114956336ob2.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8513/781531114956293ry0.jpg


blitz running dodging lazer fire
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1990/energydodge2.jpg


i shouldnt have to this but whatever and i didnt post his solo superhuman team fights which would be an excellent display of speed, agility and fighting skills

SasuOna
Originally posted by King Castle
daredevil surprised that logan is dodging gunfire close range and running at the shooter
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/...letdodgekh3.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/...etdodge2kw2.jpg

Out of everything you posted which amounted to nothing but speculative aim dodging feats and faster than the eye can see movement.

This is probably the only instance of a true speed feat from Wolverine and even then I consider it an out-lier/aim dodge feat because we know Bushwacker started shooting while Wolverine was already moving making the fact that Daredevil commenting on Wolverine dodging said bullets all the more questionable, not to mention this is hardly a consistent feat from him.

King Castle
none not even spidey can out speed bullets they all do it in the split second it takes for the guy to pull the trigger here are examples:

spidey explains bullet dodging, spidey has the benefit of his early warning system and reaction to time his response from webbing to moving.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/20066/1316161-1051707_feat27sswe5_super_super.jpg

daredevil explains bullet dodging DD has his radar to help him time
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/884062-daredevil3nh9_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/884063-daredevil4yb8_super.jpg

Wolverine analyzing Shogun a piece of his soul possessing his skills and abilities trying to explain his speed. Wolverine relies on his senses as well as his training.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/1012436-shoguna2mp9_super.jpg


in all cases it comes down to timing unless you think they are all capable of near short of mach speed.

-Pr-
wow. they really like to make cyclops look bad.

King Castle
Originally posted by -Pr-
wow. they really like to make cyclops look bad. its not that bad. logan has it the worse they turned him into a measuring stick that his winning record has dropped massively this past decade, i could swear they treat logan like a red headed stepchild.

-Pr-
Originally posted by King Castle
its not that bad. logan has it the worse they turned him into a measuring stick that his winning record has dropped massively this past decade, i could swear they treat logan like a red headed stepchild.

it is to me lol.

maybe they're trying to correct earlier mistakes?

King Castle
Originally posted by -Pr-
it is to me lol.

maybe they're trying to correct earlier mistakes? yeh, they needed to make up for that adamantium backfist cyclops gave logan. they new it was beyond comic standard consistency and disbelief.

his hand should have shattered and logan should have shrugged it off.

Trackz
Originally posted by King Castle
none not even spidey can out speed bullets they all do it in the split second it takes for the guy to pull the trigger here are examples:

spidey explains bullet dodging, spidey has the benefit of his early warning system and reaction to time his response from webbing to moving.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/20066/1316161-1051707_feat27sswe5_super_super.jpg

daredevil explains bullet dodging DD has his radar to help him time
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/884062-daredevil3nh9_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/884063-daredevil4yb8_super.jpg

Wolverine analyzing Shogun a piece of his soul possessing his skills and abilities trying to explain his speed. Wolverine relies on his senses as well as his training.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/1012436-shoguna2mp9_super.jpg


in all cases it comes down to timing unless you think they are all capable of near short of mach speed.

I think it's been shown a couple of times that spiderman actually doges bullets, most recently against kraven i think

-Pr-
Originally posted by King Castle
yeh, they needed to make up for that adamantium backfist cyclops have logan. they new it was beyond comic standard consistency and disbelief.

his hand should have shattered and logan should have shrugged it off.

you've lost me.

SasuOna
Originally posted by King Castle
none not even spidey can out speed bullets they all do it in the split second it takes for the guy to pull the trigger here are examples:

spidey explains bullet dodging, spidey has the benefit of his early warning system and reaction to time his response from webbing to moving.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/20066/1316161-1051707_feat27sswe5_super_super.jpg

daredevil explains bullet dodgingm DD has his radar to help him time
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/884062-daredevil3nh9_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/884063-daredevil4yb8_super.jpg

Wolverine analyzing Shogun a piece of his soul possessing his skills and abilities trying to explain his speed. Wolverine relies on his senses as well as his training.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29885/1012436-shoguna2mp9_super.jpg


in all cases it comes down to timing unless you think they are all capable of near short of mach speed.
So lets pretend this is true for a second

So now your telling me that Daredevil and Spider-man are not capable of reacting to bullets or bullet timing when all of their feats including using his batons to hit the bullets away would contradict everything you just said. No Wolverine is no a bullet timer, and him fighting someone with those feats does not mean he magically becomes one by association since he still lacks those feats.
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King Castle
Originally posted by Trackz
I think it's been shown a couple of times that spiderman actually doges bullets, most recently against kraven i think in order to dodge a bullet in flight require near lvl mach speed reflex to that extend the bullet would not be the only one making a loud sound. all three of them would be making a cracking sound like whip when they move at those speeds.

but i am aware of what kraven said when tryin to hit the spider. but, spidey's comment out weight what kraven says

King Castle
Originally posted by SasuOna
So lets pretend this is true for a second

So now your telling me that Daredevil and Spider-man are not capable of reacting to bullets or bullet timing when all of their feats including using his batons to hit the bullets away would contradict everything you just said. No Wolverine is no a bullet timer, and him fighting someone with those feats does not mean he magically becomes one by association since he still lacks those feats.
like i said its all about timing their movement not taking away from the feat.. i acknowledge their speed, timing and skills.

but, to say they can move at the speed of the bullet is absurd and blocking and defending against single bullets is good but DD isnt blocking multiple fire with his batons short of guys like gorgon and thor and thunderstrike smokin'


here is a good speed feat. logan allows himself to be shot as he walks away in the moment it took to fire and the bullet to pass his shoulder logan reacted fast enough to cross the distance all in the small time frame.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/808687-xmenv2133p03gm1_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/808688-bulletsidestepkq1_super.jpg

SasuOna
1. I never said Daredevil had super speed, I said hes capable of reacting to things moving a great deal faster than him. Which puts the speed argument in perspective because Wolverine is no where near that fast even with his demon powers.

2. If your reacting to a bullet after its fired from a handgun that means you have supersonic reactions. If you are reacting to a sniper rifle after its fired that puts your reactions above mach 5.

3.Once again that feat you posted is not proving anything, since that's another example of moving faster than the eye can see. All we can go by is peak human reactions and even with that we can only say hes moving faster than 30 m/s. Daredevil has reacted to things moving a lot faster than that.

If you want to say regular Wolverine is faster than Daredevil in movement speed I agree with you. However regular Wolverine is not capable of blitzing Daredevil with his level of speed. Since Daredevil's reactions are beyond anything Wolverine possesses.

Shadowland DD is a great deal stronger than Demon Wolverine he should take this

King Castle
here again is combat speed.. reguler wolverine is more then able to blitz DD in combat speed close quarter fighting.... DD doesnt try to fight guys like wolverine in close fighting he keeps his distance and focus mostly on defense. he is fully aware he cant match the combat speed of guys like spidey or logan and if writers applied Logan's blitz speed in battle with DD like they do when he fights other super human villains and heroes, DD wouldnt be able to out run or out maneuver him. Logan would chase him down like a dog b4 DD new what was happening.
notice how Betsy is having a hard time following this fight and locking on to them.
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notice the level of speed both are displayin with each other and how focus spidey has to be.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/235/781531114956336ob2.jpg

this is by far the best feat for spidey and wolvie showing both of them at their best no brain washing no BS..

notice in enemy of the state that DD was fighting a brainwash wolverine who is being controlled, is resisting the programing and has bn run down for days and yet DD was on defense throwing things in his way and having to use environment and you thing DD wouldnt be mauled in close quarter fighting with logan?
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
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Logan is stated to possess Hyper reflexes he doesnt tire and is a world class MA master his hand movement overall is something DD cant match its superhuman.

Trackz
Originally posted by King Castle
in order to dodge a bullet in flight require near lvl mach speed reflex to that extend the bullet would not be the only one making a loud sound. all three of them would be making a cracking sound like whip when they move at those speeds.

but i am aware of what kraven said when tryin to hit the spider. but, spidey's comment out weight what kraven says he has the spidey sense so he doesn't need to be as fast as one normally would, but the comic did explicitly state he dodged the bulllet

SasuOna
Assuming you know that Spider-man is leagues faster than Wolverine and actually has feats to back it up with that are beyond anything Wolverine can hope to do and that Matt was hardly taking that fight seriously and still got the better of a mind controlled wolverine. Why post this? Its not helping you at all.

I really don't see what point your trying to make. You keep posting feats that are either blatant outliers or end up showing how lacking wolverine really is in genuine reaction and speed feats.

King Castle
my point is that DD is not in the same combat speed as spiderman or wolverine they are superhuman all around.. DD isnt even Cap level combat speed.

the only times he is seen being close to their level is with outside one sided factors.

so regular wolvrerine is overall superior in combat speed/reflex.. and this current DD has shown any real power level that puts them above spidey or wolverine.

maybe finally he is in their level of power but what he did on panel isnt overall impressive it was simply unexpected.

SasuOna
Once again his lack of superhuman speed is compensated for by his superhuman senses which gives him agility on par with Spider-man
.
I just went over the fact that Wolverine speed isn't faster than the things that DD has reacted to so your whole argument about Wolverine blitzing Daredevil is just fantasy.
If Wolverine were even capable of blitzing DD without it being considered a massive outlier it would surprise me.

So far your only argument is that Wolverine has superhuman stats but his feats don't reflect that at all and his losses to people in H2H that Daredevil is capable of beating just makes the point your arguing seem less plausible.

In regards to Shadowland DD the proof was on panel he overpowered Wolverine, you can't claim PIS for a legit show of stength and speed that puts him above Wolverine.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by SasuOna
Once again his lack of superhuman speed is compensated for by his superhuman senses which gives him agility on par with Spider-man
.
Wolverine also has superhuman senses.




Originally posted by SasuOna
far your only argument is that Wolverine has superhuman stats but his feats don't reflect that at all
what are you even talking about. I posted a scan of wolverine moving so fast he blizt soldier who trained to take meta humans out so fast he ended up behind them with out them even know. Whats even crazier is that all there weapons had been cut in haft all with out them noticing.

wolverine consistently keeps pace with spiderman, venom, puma(while poisoned), Lizard (who he pwned), Vermin (who had help and he still pwned) ect.

so you are quite mistaken.

Originally posted by SasuOna
his losses to people in H2H that Daredevil is capable of beating just makes the point your arguing seem less plausible.
could all be pis, or extremely low showings. Does not help your arguement at all.

Even then he did not loses to echo, your skewer events and completely mis reading the comic. It even states her self all she did was make him mad. She never incapacitated him, that so BS you made up


Originally posted by SasuOna
regards to Shadowland DD the proof was on panel he overpowered Wolverine, you can't claim PIS for a legit show of stength and speed that puts him above Wolverine.
it proof he over powered him nothing more. please explain to me how that put his speed over wolverine? nothing he did agaisnt wolverine suggested superior speed at all.


And a plot device took him out......

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