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V V for Vendetta] and Preston Equilibrium] square off against Wesley Wanted] and Count Dooku Revenge of the Sith].

The fight takes place in the mansion from The Matrix Reloaded.

Each character knows about his allies and opponents what an average citizen of that opponent or ally's respective societies would know.

Leaving the mansion on one's own initiative will be considered forfeiture.

None of the character is aware that the fight will take place, and so is equipped only with their combat gear. (They were summoned from amidst a fight in their own universe.) For V, this means he has his knives and any other weapons he was shown to carry. Preston has his guns and ammo, as well as a sword. Dooku has his lightsaber, and as should go without saying, the Force is present in this arena. Wesley is equipped with the full array of guns that he used during the assault on the warehouse, as well as the knife . He has access to five timers and three one pound blocks of C4 along with one (1) jar of SKIPPY peanut butter. The equipment that was not on his person while in the dump truck spawns in the room with him (described below).

The four combatants arrive to four separate rooms in the mansion, each adjoining the main hall where we saw the fight. The doors are locked. Their belonging spawn with or on them as appropriate. Each room has a map of the mansion, along with locations of the others. After seven minutes, the combatants are alerted that the other team has decided to eliminate them.

Dooku and Preston's doors open onto the upper level of the hall seen in Reloaded. Wesley and V enter through doors near the base of the stairs.

They proceed to slaughter each other.



I have done my best to prevent rules lawyering based on what I've seen here in the past. Mostly, don't look for a victory based on shennaniganz. It will bring the wrath of down upon you and your kin. Basically, don't be a dick.

Indeed: nice OP. You have to really create tight OPs in any versus match to avoid shenanigans.

Anyway, I say that that V and Seamus team, win.

Seamus and V should be able to dodge just about any gunfire from Wesley, but Wesley and Dooku will not: as we have discovered in other threads, Wesley can 'null' one shot, or two shots, at best. If he comes under auotmatic gunfire, he's out.

As we have shown, with videos, in other threads, a Jedi Master level force user goes down to about 4-6 semi-automatic blaster bolt, gunfire. Blasterbolts travel 3 times slower than real bullets. So, this translates to any single force user going down to just about any automatic gunfire (real bullets).

This means that Wesley and Dooku die from automatic gunfire, alone.


I am open to persuasion, of course, as no good arguments have been made, yet.

I personally think that Wesley and Dooku would win this seeming as Dooku can force shield bullets correct?

Meanwhile behind Dooku, Wesley a bullet curver can move a bullet to go where he wants to....

Originally posted by mikeydude
I personally think that Wesley and Dooku would win this seeming as Dooku can force shield bullets correct?

Meanwhile behind Dooku, Wesley a bullet curver can move a bullet to go where he wants to....

We've never seen a force user "force shield" bullets in the films. Additionally, blaster bolts are really fast gases: it's a particle 'beam', really. So if a jedi cannot protect against a much less energetic particle beam, they certainly would not be able to protect against a much faster and much more energetic slug.

Considering Padawans and Knights are shown deflecting torrents of laser fire at Geonosis and by Padawan Kenobi rather effortlessly in Ep. I, I'd give the Sith Lord the benefit of the doubt against one gun. Laser blasts may not be as fast as Earth slugs, but considering the quantity and speed at which lowly apprentices can deflect them, I'd say one gun shouldn't be much of a problem for Dooku.

On top of that, his Lightning and telekinesis should do quite well here.

I'm leaning towards Wesley and Dooku on this one.

What you've said DDM, would only apply to a face to face shootout in the open, which is unlikely since it happens in a mansion. Everyone will likely be seeking cover and shooting from it. This is where Wesley's skills will prove supreme. Dooku, will need to rely on Wesley's distractions. IF he can get close, he should be able to dispatch of them easily, with force push/lightning combo to incapacitate quickly with low risk of getting shot, and then finishing it off however he likes. I will admit if he can't get close, he won't be as effective, but he can still play around with telekinesis and lightning from cover (similar to bringing the roof down on Yoda and throwing very large objects).

Seamus won't be as effective in this fight mainly because if he dances around in the open, he will get a dose of lightning/telekinetic punishment from Dooks, or maybe even decapitated by a flying lightsabre. So they pretty much have to attack from cover, and without having a clear sight of his enemies, he won't be able to sidestep an incoming curving bullet from Wesley.

Theres also the whole issue of Seamus not being able to predict Wesley's bullets. He can change around the trajectories so it bends differently every time, he can shoot from cover, etc etc. Not looking forward to this particular debate though, last time was torture.

Then theres also the idea of applying to Gun Kata to other debates not really working. It reminds me of the 'no limit fallacy' being brought up in another debate recently. Basically Gun Kata, for the purposes of the debate, automatically reduces the accuracy of ANY character, no matter how skilled or godlike, to zero. In fact, theoretically, it reduces the accuracy of an infinite amount of shooters shooting at the Gun Kata practitioner to zero. Basically, Gun Kata defies the laws of physics, and wouldn't work in any meaningful debate.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Considering Padawans and Knights are shown deflecting torrents of laser fire at Geonosis and by Padawan Kenobi rather effortlessly in Ep. I, I'd give the Sith Lord the benefit of the doubt against one gun. Laser blasts may not be as fast as Earth slugs, but considering the quantity and speed at which lowly apprentices can deflect them, I'd say one gun shouldn't be much of a problem for Dooku.

On top of that, his Lightning and telekinesis should do quite well here.

Yeah, it was lots of blaster bolt fire, but the most taken on, at once, by an individual was 4-6 different sources. (I can't remember if it was 4 or 6...RJ counted them for us.)

That's high end from a master. I'd say that only Yoda and Mace could potentially take on more. (If we go to the EU, Kenobi is supposed to have uber defense.)

Originally posted by Placidity
I'm leaning towards Wesley and Dooku on this one.

What you've said DDM, would only apply to a face to face shootout in the open, which is unlikely since it happens in a mansion. Everyone will likely be seeking cover and shooting from it. This is where Wesley's skills will prove supreme. Dooku, will need to rely on Wesley's distractions. IF he can get close, he should be able to dispatch of them easily, with force push/lightning combo to incapacitate quickly with low risk of getting shot, and then finishing it off however he likes. I will admit if he can't get close, he won't be as effective, but he can still play around with telekinesis and lightning from cover (similar to bringing the roof down on Yoda and throwing very large objects).

Seamus won't be as effective in this fight mainly because if he dances around in the open, he will get a dose of lightning/telekinetic punishment from Dooks, or maybe even decapitated by a flying lightsabre. So they pretty much have to attack from cover, and without having a clear sight of his enemies, he won't be able to sidestep an incoming curving bullet from Wesley.

Theres also the whole issue of Seamus not being able to predict Wesley's bullets. He can change around the trajectories so it bends differently every time, he can shoot from cover, etc etc. Not looking forward to this particular debate though, last time was torture.

Then theres also the idea of applying to Gun Kata to other debates not really working. It reminds me of the 'no limit fallacy' being brought up in another debate recently. Basically Gun Kata, for the purposes of the debate, automatically reduces the accuracy of ANY character, no matter how skilled or godlike, to zero. In fact, theoretically, it reduces the accuracy of an infinite amount of shooters shooting at the Gun Kata practitioner to zero. Basically, Gun Kata defies the laws of physics, and wouldn't work in any meaningful debate.

I thought this took place in the mansion that occurred in Matrix Reloaded? If it does, that's a wide open area.


Also, we covered the "bullet bending" arguments already: there's very little feasible difference in where the bullet goes and where it comes from, from gun kata's perspective.

On top of that, it's a "one shot" type of deal and will put Gibson at a disadvantage if he tries it.


And, no, Gun Kata can be overtaxed by enough people. However, it DOES defy the laws of physics, just like bullet bending does. Bullet bending is literally impossible. Gun Kata is not and "bullet trajectory" avoidance is not an original idea to post apoloclyptic science fiction. Gun kata on the level seen in Equilibrium, however, is impossible, unless the person is superhuman.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I thought this took place in the mansion that occurred in Matrix Reloaded? If it does, that's a wide open area.


Mansion was pretty big, with lots of rooms etc.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Also, we covered the "bullet bending" arguments already: there's very little feasible difference in where the bullet goes and where it comes from, from gun kata's perspective.


Actually, you'll have to debate it again =p

Seamus cannot predict where the bullet will be he doesn't even see where its coming from.

That plus a lot more, if you feel like debating it.

Originally posted by dadudemon

And, no, Gun Kata can be overtaxed by enough people. However, it DOES defy the laws of physics, just like bullet bending does. Bullet bending is literally impossible. Gun Kata is not and "bullet trajectory" avoidance is not an original idea to post apoloclyptic science fiction. Gun kata on the level seen in Equilibrium, however, is impossible, unless the person is superhuman.

I didn't mean it in the same way you are saying. I'm saying even if the person was superhuman, it would still be impossible. It's quite simple, one only needs to saturate the Gun Kata Practitioner's immediate area with automatic fire to hit him. It doesn't matter if he can predict the trajectories with 100% accuracy because without superspeed, there is no where he can step to to avoid being hit. It's ridiculously simple logic really, but in the movie, he just walks around and they all somehow miss him.

If I gave you the ability to predict where bullets will fly and peak human ability and skill to move with 100% economy of motion, I'd still hit you easily with an mp5. I'd just spam the area immediately across you and you'd get hit, let alone a deadshot like Wesley. To him, you'd just be a statue when he activates his adrenaline rush.

And you say Gun Kata can be overloaded, but it hasn't shown any limits. In the film, there are at least 20 guns unloading automatic fire on him. Based on physics, he should've been hit, doesn't matter if he can predict the trajectories, everywhere he stepped to would've crossed paths with bullets. Yet he is able to walk through hails of it. There is no limit to gun kata since it already has feats defying logic.

My statement still stands, when Gun Kata is involved, even the most skilled hot shot's accuracy decreases to zero, even if in normal circumstances they can hit something as quick and small as a fly. The concept of Gun Kata is illogical in itself. If it was just a semi-auto handgun, sure it'd be plausible, no arguments there. But it just doesn't work when anywhere you step to, you'd get hit, and somehow they avoid all of it.

This is how I'd best describe Gun kata:

http://www.weirdwarp.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Square-Paradox.jpg

Originally posted by Placidity
Mansion was pretty big, with lots of rooms etc.



Actually, you'll have to debate it again =p

Seamus cannot predict where the bullet will be he doesn't even see where its coming from.

That plus a lot more, if you feel like debating it.



I didn't mean it in the same way you are saying. I'm saying even if the person was superhuman, it would still be impossible. It's quite simple, one only needs to saturate the Gun Kata Practitioner's immediate area with automatic fire to hit him. It doesn't matter if he can predict the trajectories with 100% accuracy because without superspeed, there is no where he can step to to avoid being hit. It's ridiculously simple logic really, but in the movie, he just walks around and they all somehow miss him.

If I gave you the ability to predict where bullets will fly and peak human ability and skill to move with 100% economy of motion, I'd still hit you easily with an mp5. I'd just spam the area immediately across you and you'd get hit, let alone a deadshot like Wesley. To him, you'd just be a statue when he activates his adrenaline rush.

And you say Gun Kata can be overloaded, but it hasn't shown any limits. In the film, there are at least 20 guns unloading automatic fire on him. Based on physics, he should've been hit, doesn't matter if he can predict the trajectories, everywhere he stepped to would've crossed paths with bullets. Yet he is able to walk through hails of it. There is no limit to gun kata since it already has feats defying logic.

My statement still stands, when Gun Kata is involved, even the most skilled hot shot's accuracy decreases to zero, even if in normal circumstances they can hit something as quick and small as a fly. The concept of Gun Kata is illogical in itself. If it was just a semi-auto handgun, sure it'd be plausible, no arguments there. But it just doesn't work when anywhere you step to, you'd get hit, and somehow they avoid all of it.

This is how I'd best describe Gun kata:

http://www.weirdwarp.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Square-Paradox.jpg

If you want to recover the arguments of the gun kata vs. wes gibson debate, all we have to do is requote it or post a link to the thread, in here. Would that satisfy your evil plans? evillaugh


On the rest of what you posted, yeah, we are agree for the most part.

The movie even seems to self-parodize that concept. The 20 gunmen open fire with their automatic assault rifles, John THEN jumps into the air, he spins around...then drops. Behind him, RIGHT where he was spinning around in the air, are tons of bullet holes in the wall behind him. The only thing he did was spin in the air: nothing else. Tons and tons of those bullets would have hit him, if you looked at the MASSIVE pattern on the wall behind him-if you even want to call that a pattern because it looks more like they reduced the profile of that section by 1-2 inches rather than there being any sort of pattern-then there was not feasible way John Preston could have avoided that gunfire: it was bs.

Anyway, I thought Gun Kata was overloaded at least once: I could have sworn a "grazing" bullet happened at least once. Again, I haven't seen that shit in quite some time.

There's also the problem of several of the clerics getting shot...meaning...their ability to use Gun Kata was overloaded. It's possible that only John Preston cannot be overloaded...in which case, yeah: the "no limit fallacy" would be hard to apply to him because the entire area he was in was covered with bullets but they still "missed."


Edit - We have to go to "screen feats" only: Was Seamus EVER shown using Gun Kata?

hahahahahaha

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to recover the arguments of the gun kata vs. wes gibson debate, all we have to do is requote it or post a link to the thread, in here. Would that satisfy your evil plans? evillaugh


Ha, I'd rather not go there again. I'm interested in this thread because its actually not about HP/SW/RJ for once, but I'm not THAT committed lol.

Originally posted by dadudemon

On the rest of what you posted, yeah, we are agree for the most part.

after reading you guys' posts i am on the fence at the moment..

i am very knowledgeable where star wars is concerned and i remember V quite well..

not sure if Seamus used gun kata, but will check my dvd to be sure..

right i am non commital towards Wesley/Dooku, but do not hold me to it

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, it was lots of blaster bolt fire, but the most taken on, at once, by an individual was 4-6 different sources. (I can't remember if it was 4 or 6...RJ counted them for us.)

That's high end from a master. I'd say that only Yoda and Mace could potentially take on more. (If we go to the EU, Kenobi is supposed to have uber defense.) He is. EU doesn't even require a lightsaber to reflect blaster bolts. But if Padawans such as Kenobi can redirect all that fire from a droideka, I feel Dooku could do the same from one single gun, even an automatic.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He is. EU doesn't even require a lightsaber to reflect blaster bolts. But if Padawans such as Kenobi can redirect all that fire from a droideka, I feel Dooku could do the same from one single gun, even an automatic.

I know this, but these are metal slugs that are 2-3 times faster than than blaster bolts and we already know the high end ability of force users: 5-6 people firing at them, at once.


More than that, and it overtaxes battle precog. So it would only take 2 men, with pistols, to overtax a high end force user.


Automatic gunfire such as an auto Glock 19? MAYBE...just MAYBE....EU Luke could move fast enough to block the gun fire.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I know this, but these are metal slugs that are 2-3 times faster than than blaster boltsOut of curiosity, where are you getting this from?




Originally posted by dadudemon
Automatic gunfire such as an auto Glock 19? MAYBE...just MAYBE....EU Luke could move fast enough to block the gun fire. I recall RotS Kenobi parrying 23-strikes per second, and Luke circa NJO onwards is far more powerful.

I'm not really sure why Dooku cannot make two gestures and either hold Seamus and V in place for Wesley to blow their brains out, or just outright crush their skulls.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I'm not really sure why Dooku cannot make two gestures and either hold Seamus and V in place for Wesley to blow their brains out, or just outright crush their skulls.

Theres the matter of range, so Dooku can't be too far away when he does it. This increases the risk of him getting shot.

If Seamus and V are smart they would fight from cover, again making it harder for Dooku to do what you said. If Dooku exposes himself to force own them, he again might get shot.

I'm not sure about the force hold, I only recall Force Choke being used, which still allows the enemy to return fire.

Crushing their skulls? Yea, if he gets the chance, which I guess he eventually will. All he has to do is stay behind cover until Seamus/V get bored and come out to start something.

Who the **** was Seamus in Equillibrium? One of the resistance fighters right? Don't fully recall.

I'd say Wesley and Dooku for now, Wesley can pretty much hit anything anywhere he wants. Dooku with the Force and sabre.

^ I'm not sure either. I've just assumed it was the Black guy that got his face cut off lol.

Originally posted by Robtard
Who the **** was Seamus in Equillibrium? One of the resistance fighters right? Don't fully recall.

I'd say Wesley and Dooku for now, Wesley can pretty much hit anything anywhere he wants. Dooku with the Force and sabre.
God effing damn it.

I meant John Preston. I haven't actually seen the whoole movie myself, and I slipped a line in IMDB where for some unfathomable reason Christian Bale is not the first name listed.

Consider "Seamus" to be the fake name of the patsy on whom all of Preston's crimes were blamed. Then replace the character "Seamus" with John Preston.

Lmao

Ah, no problem.

I still say Wesley as his powers effectively trump Preston's ability to calculate bullet trajectories and he can hit V anywhere. Dooku with the Force takes down V and I'd give him great odds against Preston.

Thread edited per request.

Originally posted by Placidity
Theres the matter of range, so Dooku can't be too far away when he does it. This increases the risk of him getting shot.

If Seamus and V are smart they would fight from cover, again making it harder for Dooku to do what you said. If Dooku exposes himself to force own them, he again might get shot.

I'm not sure about the force hold, I only recall Force Choke being used, which still allows the enemy to return fire.

Crushing their skulls? Yea, if he gets the chance, which I guess he eventually will. All he has to do is stay behind cover until Seamus/V get bored and come out to start something. Range. Really? Dooku is one of the most powerful Force users in the series, not some random Padawan, he could do it from the other side of the mansion.

Um, no. You do not need line of sight to use the Force, Dooku would be able to sense them. Hell, Vader in one of the movies (I have trouble recalling which one) used Force Choke on an officer I think in the Death Star, and they were in totally different places in the ship, with Vader only seeing him on a screen. Or, alternatively, he could easily annihilate their cover with the force.

He could literally crush their windpipes, beheading them if he wants to. Alternatively, he could throw his saber at them, which would go through whatever cover they have, impaling one of them, and then he could bring it back.

These are not Jedi who can resist the powers of the Force. They will be helpless before it.

Alternatively, Dooku could just bring the whole damn mansion down, crushing everyone but himself and Wesley.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Range. Really? Dooku is one of the most powerful Force users in the series, not some random Padawan, he could do it from the other side of the mansion.

Um, no. You do not need line of sight to use the Force, Dooku would be able to sense them. Hell, Vader in one of the movies (I have trouble recalling which one) used Force Choke on an officer I think in the Death Star, and they were in totally different places in the ship, with Vader only seeing him on a screen. Or, alternatively, he could easily annihilate their cover with the force.

He could literally crush their windpipes, beheading them if he wants to. Alternatively, he could throw his saber at them, which would go through whatever cover they have, impaling one of them, and then he could bring it back.

These are not Jedi who can resist the powers of the Force. They will be helpless before it.

Alternatively, Dooku could just bring the whole damn mansion down, crushing everyone but himself and Wesley.

* I don't remember seeing Dooku using force powers from that far, but you are welcome to remind me of his feats.

* Darth Vader =/= Count Dooku

And the rest of your points, I agree with, I've made many of them myself. Its just that I've considered the fact that if he exposes himself (which he may need to for some of his potential attacks), he will get shot.

I never liked the line of thought that says "If we only saw him use X ability at X range/magnitude, then obviously he could never go any further."

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I never liked the line of thought that says "If we only saw him use X ability at X range/magnitude, then obviously he could never go any further."

Contrastingly, you must then like the line of thought that says, "If we only see him use X ability at X range/magnitude, then obviously he could go as far as I'd like to say he could go."?

Originally posted by Placidity
Contrastingly, you must then like the line of thought that says, "If we only see him use X ability at X range/magnitude, then obviously he could go as far as I'd like to say he could go."?

I do so enjoy that one.

There isn't a happy middle ground for movie feats, too much of it is subject to opinions and feelings.

Dooku is a couple tiers above these guys.

Originally posted by Placidity
* I don't remember seeing Dooku using force powers from that far, but you are welcome to remind me of his feats.

* Darth Vader =/= Count Dooku

And the rest of your points, I agree with, I've made many of them myself. Its just that I've considered the fact that if he exposes himself (which he may need to for some of his potential attacks), he will get shot. While Vader is somewhat superior to Dooku in the Force, it is not that great a difference, this is a mansion, which does not approach the size of either the Death Star of a Star Destroyer (IIRC the feat in question was performed in one of those places).

But mansion go down and boom. D:

Well, that depends which versions. If we're restricted to movie versions then, yeah, they're close. When factoring EU, I think it is safe to say that Vader is considerably superior to Dooku in Force power.

If I were to take a stance, I'd give it to Preston and V.

Dooku's screen feats do not show the athleticism required to keep up with the other two in bladework, and while I do not believe that he would be unable to handle automatic fire, the combination of enemies would soon overwhelm the Count's precision.

Wesley is impressive in his assault, but his equipment does not seem to be as high a quality as that of his opponents. Pistol vs. automatic, knife vs. sword.

The most interesting matchup for me only involves bladework, and pits Wesley against V and Dooku against Preston, with teamwork as needed.

Perhaps Wesley should trade spots with one of the others. Perhaps have V and Dooku as the swordsmen versus the two gunmen.