V [V for Vendetta] and Preston [Equilibrium] square off against Wesley [Wanted] and Count Dooku [Revenge of the Sith].
The fight takes place in the mansion from The Matrix Reloaded.
Each character knows about his allies and opponents what an average citizen of that opponent or ally's respective societies would know.
Leaving the mansion on one's own initiative will be considered forfeiture.
None of the character is aware that the fight will take place, and so is equipped only with their combat gear. (They were summoned from amidst a fight in their own universe.) For V, this means he has his knives and any other weapons he was shown to carry. Preston has his guns and ammo, as well as a sword. [His sword will be considered impervious and impermeable to the lightsaber beam; this isn't supposed to be ridiculous.] Dooku has his lightsaber, and as should go without saying, the Force is present in this arena. Wesley is equipped with the full array of guns that he used during the assault on the warehouse, as well as the knife [which is immune to the lightsaber just as was Preston's sword]. He has access to five timers and three one pound blocks of C4 along with one (1) jar of SKIPPY peanut butter. The equipment that was not on his person while in the dump truck spawns in the room with him (described below).
The four combatants arrive to four separate rooms in the mansion, each adjoining the main hall where we saw the fight. The doors are locked. Their belonging spawn with or on them as appropriate. Each room has a map of the mansion, along with locations of the others. After seven minutes, the combatants are alerted that the other team has decided to eliminate them.
Dooku and Preston's doors open onto the upper level of the hall seen in Reloaded. Wesley and V enter through doors near the base of the stairs.
They proceed to slaughter each other.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: I have done my best to prevent rules lawyering based on what I've seen here in the past. Mostly, don't look for a victory based on shennaniganz. It will bring the wrath of [ASKING IMPEDIMENT TO EDIT THE OP] down upon you and your kin. Basically, don't be a dick.
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Last edited by Impediment on Jan 5th, 2011 at 02:30 AM
Indeed: nice OP. You have to really create tight OPs in any versus match to avoid shenanigans.
Anyway, I say that that V and Seamus team, win.
Seamus and V should be able to dodge just about any gunfire from Wesley, but Wesley and Dooku will not: as we have discovered in other threads, Wesley can 'null' one shot, or two shots, at best. If he comes under auotmatic gunfire, he's out.
As we have shown, with videos, in other threads, a Jedi Master level force user goes down to about 4-6 semi-automatic blaster bolt, gunfire. Blasterbolts travel 3 times slower than real bullets. So, this translates to any single force user going down to just about any automatic gunfire (real bullets).
This means that Wesley and Dooku die from automatic gunfire, alone.
I am open to persuasion, of course, as no good arguments have been made, yet.
We've never seen a force user "force shield" bullets in the films. Additionally, blaster bolts are really fast gases: it's a particle 'beam', really. So if a jedi cannot protect against a much less energetic particle beam, they certainly would not be able to protect against a much faster and much more energetic slug.
Considering Padawans and Knights are shown deflecting torrents of laser fire at Geonosis and by Padawan Kenobi rather effortlessly in Ep. I, I'd give the Sith Lord the benefit of the doubt against one gun. Laser blasts may not be as fast as Earth slugs, but considering the quantity and speed at which lowly apprentices can deflect them, I'd say one gun shouldn't be much of a problem for Dooku.
On top of that, his Lightning and telekinesis should do quite well here.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
What you've said DDM, would only apply to a face to face shootout in the open, which is unlikely since it happens in a mansion. Everyone will likely be seeking cover and shooting from it. This is where Wesley's skills will prove supreme. Dooku, will need to rely on Wesley's distractions. IF he can get close, he should be able to dispatch of them easily, with force push/lightning combo to incapacitate quickly with low risk of getting shot, and then finishing it off however he likes. I will admit if he can't get close, he won't be as effective, but he can still play around with telekinesis and lightning from cover (similar to bringing the roof down on Yoda and throwing very large objects).
Seamus won't be as effective in this fight mainly because if he dances around in the open, he will get a dose of lightning/telekinetic punishment from Dooks, or maybe even decapitated by a flying lightsabre. So they pretty much have to attack from cover, and without having a clear sight of his enemies, he won't be able to sidestep an incoming curving bullet from Wesley.
Theres also the whole issue of Seamus not being able to predict Wesley's bullets. He can change around the trajectories so it bends differently every time, he can shoot from cover, etc etc. Not looking forward to this particular debate though, last time was torture.
Then theres also the idea of applying to Gun Kata to other debates not really working. It reminds me of the 'no limit fallacy' being brought up in another debate recently. Basically Gun Kata, for the purposes of the debate, automatically reduces the accuracy of ANY character, no matter how skilled or godlike, to zero. In fact, theoretically, it reduces the accuracy of an infinite amount of shooters shooting at the Gun Kata practitioner to zero. Basically, Gun Kata defies the laws of physics, and wouldn't work in any meaningful debate.
Yeah, it was lots of blaster bolt fire, but the most taken on, at once, by an individual was 4-6 different sources. (I can't remember if it was 4 or 6...RJ counted them for us.)
That's high end from a master. I'd say that only Yoda and Mace could potentially take on more. (If we go to the EU, Kenobi is supposed to have uber defense.)
I thought this took place in the mansion that occurred in Matrix Reloaded? If it does, that's a wide open area.
Also, we covered the "bullet bending" arguments already: there's very little feasible difference in where the bullet goes and where it comes from, from gun kata's perspective.
On top of that, it's a "one shot" type of deal and will put Gibson at a disadvantage if he tries it.
And, no, Gun Kata can be overtaxed by enough people. However, it DOES defy the laws of physics, just like bullet bending does. Bullet bending is literally impossible. Gun Kata is not and "bullet trajectory" avoidance is not an original idea to post apoloclyptic science fiction. Gun kata on the level seen in Equilibrium, however, is impossible, unless the person is superhuman.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Jan 4th, 2011 at 08:33 AM
Seamus cannot predict where the bullet will be he doesn't even see where its coming from.
That plus a lot more, if you feel like debating it.
I didn't mean it in the same way you are saying. I'm saying even if the person was superhuman, it would still be impossible. It's quite simple, one only needs to saturate the Gun Kata Practitioner's immediate area with automatic fire to hit him. It doesn't matter if he can predict the trajectories with 100% accuracy because without superspeed, there is no where he can step to to avoid being hit. It's ridiculously simple logic really, but in the movie, he just walks around and they all somehow miss him.
If I gave you the ability to predict where bullets will fly and peak human ability and skill to move with 100% economy of motion, I'd still hit you easily with an mp5. I'd just spam the area immediately across you and you'd get hit, let alone a deadshot like Wesley. To him, you'd just be a statue when he activates his adrenaline rush.
And you say Gun Kata can be overloaded, but it hasn't shown any limits. In the film, there are at least 20 guns unloading automatic fire on him. Based on physics, he should've been hit, doesn't matter if he can predict the trajectories, everywhere he stepped to would've crossed paths with bullets. Yet he is able to walk through hails of it. There is no limit to gun kata since it already has feats defying logic.
My statement still stands, when Gun Kata is involved, even the most skilled hot shot's accuracy decreases to zero, even if in normal circumstances they can hit something as quick and small as a fly. The concept of Gun Kata is illogical in itself. If it was just a semi-auto handgun, sure it'd be plausible, no arguments there. But it just doesn't work when anywhere you step to, you'd get hit, and somehow they avoid all of it.
If you want to recover the arguments of the gun kata vs. wes gibson debate, all we have to do is requote it or post a link to the thread, in here. Would that satisfy your evil plans?
On the rest of what you posted, yeah, we are agree for the most part.
The movie even seems to self-parodize that concept. The 20 gunmen open fire with their automatic assault rifles, John THEN jumps into the air, he spins around...then drops. Behind him, RIGHT where he was spinning around in the air, are tons of bullet holes in the wall behind him. The only thing he did was spin in the air: nothing else. Tons and tons of those bullets would have hit him, if you looked at the MASSIVE pattern on the wall behind him-if you even want to call that a pattern because it looks more like they reduced the profile of that section by 1-2 inches rather than there being any sort of pattern-then there was not feasible way John Preston could have avoided that gunfire: it was bs.
Anyway, I thought Gun Kata was overloaded at least once: I could have sworn a "grazing" bullet happened at least once. Again, I haven't seen that shit in quite some time.
There's also the problem of several of the clerics getting shot...meaning...their ability to use Gun Kata was overloaded. It's possible that only John Preston cannot be overloaded...in which case, yeah: the "no limit fallacy" would be hard to apply to him because the entire area he was in was covered with bullets but they still "missed."
Edit - We have to go to "screen feats" only: Was Seamus EVER shown using Gun Kata?
hahahahahaha
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Last edited by dadudemon on Jan 4th, 2011 at 09:18 AM
He is. EU doesn't even require a lightsaber to reflect blaster bolts. But if Padawans such as Kenobi can redirect all that fire from a droideka, I feel Dooku could do the same from one single gun, even an automatic.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I know this, but these are metal slugs that are 2-3 times faster than than blaster bolts and we already know the high end ability of force users: 5-6 people firing at them, at once.
More than that, and it overtaxes battle precog. So it would only take 2 men, with pistols, to overtax a high end force user.
Automatic gunfire such as an auto Glock 19? MAYBE...just MAYBE....EU Luke could move fast enough to block the gun fire.
Out of curiosity, where are you getting this from?
I recall RotS Kenobi parrying 23-strikes per second, and Luke circa NJO onwards is far more powerful.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I'm not really sure why Dooku cannot make two gestures and either hold Seamus and V in place for Wesley to blow their brains out, or just outright crush their skulls.
Theres the matter of range, so Dooku can't be too far away when he does it. This increases the risk of him getting shot.
If Seamus and V are smart they would fight from cover, again making it harder for Dooku to do what you said. If Dooku exposes himself to force own them, he again might get shot.
I'm not sure about the force hold, I only recall Force Choke being used, which still allows the enemy to return fire.
Crushing their skulls? Yea, if he gets the chance, which I guess he eventually will. All he has to do is stay behind cover until Seamus/V get bored and come out to start something.
I meant John Preston. I haven't actually seen the whoole movie myself, and I slipped a line in IMDB where for some unfathomable reason Christian Bale is not the first name listed.
Consider "Seamus" to be the fake name of the patsy on whom all of Preston's crimes were blamed. Then replace the character "Seamus" with John Preston.
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Jan 4th, 2011 04:40 AM
