Ymir vs Mephisto

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Nihilist
1.Fight in Niffleheim

2.Fight in Mephs realm, Ymir has Twilight sword and CoAW.

Who wins?

Rage.Of.Olympus
1. Ymir.
2. Ymir wins even easier.

zopzop
Dude, Ymir [email protected] him. He don't need no Twilight Sword or Casket.

Ymir is equal power wise, to Surtur. And Surtur has gone toe to toe with Odin. Recently Ymir pummeled Thor who supposedly had the Odinforce (need confirmation on the Odinforce part).

Outside Mephisto's realm, it's a slaughter in Ymir's favor.

Inside Mephisto's realm, it's basically a draw. Mephisto bragged that he was the equal to an Odin or Zeus in his realm. So adding Twilight and the Casket of Ancient Winters makes it a stomp in Ymir's favor again.

Outside Mephisto's hell realm, Ymir 10/10.

Inside Mephisto's hell realm, without Twilight and without the Casket, Ymir 5/10.

Rage.Of.Olympus
The Twilight Sword and the Casket of Ancient Winters adds Ymir too much power for Mephisto to split it.

Did Mephisto ever claim that or are you thinking of Dormammu? The only scene I can think of is where Mephisto claims his power nearly equals Odin's in his realm. Could be wrong though. The dude has a lot of guest appearances.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Twilight Sword and the Casket of Ancient Winters adds Ymir too much power for Mephisto to split it.

That's why I said he don't need it and it would still be a split even in Mephisto's realm big grin With those artifacts Mephisto gets curb stomped.



No you right, I was thinking of Dormammu for that quote.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
That's why I said he don't need it and it would still be a split even in Mephisto's realm big grin With those artifacts Mephisto gets curb stomped.

Oh, okay. Not sure I completely agree but whatever, I can live with it.

Originally posted by zopzop
No you right, I was thinking of Dormammu for that quote.

Cool.

Black bolt z
Mephisto in both.

Rage.Of.Olympus
I forgot, you think Mephisto > Odin level because he stalemated Galactus in his realm or something like that.

zopzop
@Rage

Nah, he's just being BBZ big grin Just smile and nod, that's what I do.

Arahan
Mephisto

A being that can make Spiderman his ***** is powerful smile

MrMind
mephisto also got owned by daredevil shifty

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Arahan
Mephisto

A being that can make Spiderman his ***** is powerful smile

Haha, a self hating fan. Take notes Petey:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7386/sorrymephisto.jpg

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I forgot, you think Mephisto > Odin level because he stalemated Galactus in his realm or something like that. No thats not why I think he is more powerful then Odin.Originally posted by zopzop
@Rage

Nah, he's just being BBZ big grin Just smile and nod, that's what I do. How bout you actually provide proof?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Black bolt z
No thats not why I think he is more powerful then Odin.

Then, why?

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Then, why? What does Odin even have to do with this?

You can't force Odins feats onto Ymir. Use Ymir feats.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Black bolt z
What does Odin even have to do with this?

You can't force Odins feats onto Ymir. Use Ymir feats.

Answer my question: Why do you think Mephisto is more powerful than Odin?

OneDumbG0
^ Because he takes on Galactus and retcons Spiderman.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Because he takes on Galactus and retcons Spiderman.

He stalemated Galactus. That doesn't put him above Odin in my book. Especially since every interaction I've seen with Odin points to Odin being his equal at bare minimum.

So? Hela can apparently do the same reality warping retcon that Mephisto did with Spider-Man. Those contract like agreements seem to have a lot of power -which either Breevort or Quesada commented on for what's worth- with high end Death Gods.

OneDumbG0
^ Among other things, Odin got ragestomped by Doom w/ Galactus' power.

Hela isn't retconning Spiderman. Hela may also be a Death God associating with Mephisto. That means as much as Manitou being a Skyfather associating with Odin.

King Castle
Hela told moonstar that breaking of contracts after having been signed negates any future or past actions altering or reverting reality as it should be since they are bound to act within the contract past and present.

also Odin is at least Mephisto's equal and slight superior and has a slight edge over mephisto due to his divine nature..

Odin had the power to nullify Mephisto's contract over kevin's soul and invade his realm unnoticed

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Among other things, Odin got ragestomped by Doom w/ Galactus' power.

Hela isn't retconning Spiderman. Hela may also be a Death God associating with Mephisto. That means as much as Manitou being a Skyfather associating with Odin.

Who also possessed the Cosmic Cube.

Why would there be anything special about Spider-Man? As seen in New Mutants, if Dani didn't fulfill her agreement to Hela, history would be retconned, she would have never received the power of the Valkyrie, she wouldn't have stopped Ares, and Osborn would have won, killing all the mutants and so on. Like I said, contractual like agreements seem to grant them immense power. It's been suggested in the past. Now its simply in continuity.

That was not my argument, although based on interactions, they would be peers. At the very least, their combined forces are equal more or less if not their individual power.

OneDumbG0
^ Doom didn't use the Cosmic Cube to wish that Odin be ragestomped. Galactus > Odin. They're not peers. Celestials might be peers to Galactus. Celestials, however, are also > Odin. Originally posted by King Castle
Hela told moonstar that breaking of contracts after having been signed negates any future or past actions altering or reverting reality as it should be since they are bound to act within the contract past and present.

also Odin is at least Mephisto's equal and slight superior and has a slight edge over mephisto due to his divine nature..

Odin had the power to nullify Mephisto's contract over kevin's soul and invade his realm unnoticed Mephisto didn't retcon Spiderman's history by having Spiderman break his contract. Also actions > words.

Mephisto kept Odin imprisoned in a burlap bag. erm

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Doom didn't use the Cosmic Cube to wish that Odin be ragestomped. Galactus > Odin. They're not peers. Celestials might be peers to Galactus. Celestials, however, are also > Odin.

Seriously? The entire point of why Doom was so dangerous was because he possessed the combined power/capabilities of all the artifacts. Reed Richards made that abundantly clear.

Don't use Thor #300 as your basis for evidence. The Celestials would have rage stomped Galactus as well. When they were introduced, they were considered to be > Odin and the other cosmics. At least in the Thor office.

Contrary to what some like to believe, Odin and Galactus are peers. Heck on average, I think he might operate even below Odin at this point, what with having so many appearances where his weakened or hungry.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mephisto didn't retcon Spiderman's history by having Spiderman break his contract. Also actions > words.

No, but the point stands, contracts give Death Gods apparently a lot of power. Reversing the nature of a contract or fulfilling the obligations of a contract, what's the real distinction? Power is power.

I have no reason to assume Gillen had Hela lying.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mephisto kept Odin imprisoned in a burlap bag. erm

Common dude. Context.

King Castle
aside from that i wont say how mephisto did it and get into the details b/c honestly he really shouldnt have the power to force ppl to act against their will or waive his hand over reality..

but, whatever.

does anyone recall when Mephisto was screwing with black panther and BP and Mephisto stated that he wasnt hallucinating but were actually time traveling..

which would make mephisto's feat using this and being the most reasonable means of altering reality. a ripple in a lake is really all that is needed.. just saying and Odin can easily accomplish this as well as can other gods and or heralds

Rage.Of.Olympus
Mephisto basically erased all records -including memories- of Spider-Man's face from what I understand and might have erased the moment where he removed his mask live (Not 100% sure).

That's not above Odin's capabilities.

OneDumbG0
^ Retconning Spiderman's history > Odin's capabilities. Different historical actions, it wasn't a matter of erasing memories. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Seriously? The entire point of why Doom was so dangerous was because he possessed the combined power/capabilities of all the artifacts. Reed Richards made that abundantly clear.

Don't use Thor #300 as your basis for evidence. The Celestials would have rage stomped Galactus as well. When they were introduced, they were considered to be > Odin and the other cosmics. At least in the Thor office. And it was pretty clear that Doom wasn't using the Cosmic Cube to wish beatdowns on Marvel Earth. He was using Galactus' power to do that.

Just because Celestials rage-stomped a prepped and amped Odin doesn't mean they would have done the same to Galactus.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Contrary to what some like to believe, Odin and Galactus are peers. Heck on average, I think he might operate even below Odin at this point, what with having so many appearances where his weakened.

No, but the point stands, contracts give Death Gods apparently a lot of power. Reversing the nature of a contract or fulfilling the obligations of a contract, what's the real distinction? Power is power.

I have no reason to assume Gillen had Hela lying.

Seriously dude? Context. No. Just no.

The point stands that Mephisto didn't retcon Peter Parker's history by getting him to sign a contract and having it broken. The real distinction is that actions > words.

I have no reason either.

As opposed to focusing on early statements where Odin might have been speculated as being a peer to Galactus or feats by Death Gods which actually haven't been performed. Right.

King Castle
but it should be above Mephisto's ability since he is not allowed nor can he enter any mind that is unwilling by demonic law and whatnot...

goddamn marvel continuity facepalm

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Seriously? The entire point of why Doom was so dangerous was because he possessed the combined power/capabilities of all the artifacts. Reed Richards made that abundantly clear.

You know what's annoying? The fact that it's made ABUNDANTLY clear in the scans that Doom was packing a lot more than just Galactus' power, yet people still try to play it off like Doom was using ONLY Galan's power to own Odin.

Reed said "IF he only had Galactus' power, we'd have a chance." The scans are in the Odin respect thread I think, or failing that they can just google and get the scan in question.

The fact that Doom had the Cube was the game changer. Back when the story took place, those things were basically mini Infinity Gauntlets in terms of power.

Omega Vision
Lol at more of this Odin=Galactus bullshit.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by zopzop
You know what's annoying? The fact that it's made ABUNDANTLY clear in the scans that Doom was packing a lot more than just Galactus' power, yet people still try to play it off like Doom was using ONLY Galan's power to own Odin.

Reed said "IF he only had Galactus' power, we'd have a chance." The scans are in the Odin respect thread I think, or failing that they can just google and get the scan in question.

The fact that Doom had the Cube was the game changer. Back when the story took place, those things were basically mini Infinity Gauntlets in terms of power. And he still wanted Galactus' power and was only satisfied when he got it. Go figure. Originally posted by King Castle
but it should be above Mephisto's ability since he is not allowed nor can he enter any mind that is unwilling by demonic law and whatnot...

goddamn marvel continuity facepalm Mephisto isn't some minor demon governed by rules from on high. He's Mephisto.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And he still wanted Galactus' power and was only satisfied when he got it. Go figure. Mephisto isn't some minor demon governed by rules from on high. He's Mephisto.

Outside his hell, he's a joke. Thanos turned his back on an enraged Mephisto and all Mephisto did was talk sxxt and teleport away. Inside his hell, he supposedly, claimed to be around Odin level in power.

@Omega Vision



I agree it's BS, based on showings Odin > Galactus on average.

King Castle
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And he still wanted Galactus' power and was only satisfied when he got it. Go figure. Mephisto isn't some minor demon governed by rules from on high. He's Mephisto. it's actually been stated on panel from various sources including him and even showing that he cannot read minds or enter them by force. i'll try to find a scan or reference pretty sure it has also been said mephisto only has power that which we give him as in his attacks can be overcome by faith or believing them to be false....... either way what he did was way beyond his established power. anyone that has read comics from back in the day should know this..

anyways.......

Nah, Galactus is above skyfather by how much is up to debate depending on home field advantage and what depiction of the character we want to use from certain point and time.

OneDumbG0
^ Read Mephisto Vs. please. Originally posted by zopzop
Outside his hell, he's a joke. Thanos turned his back on an enraged Mephisto and all Mephisto did was talk sxxt and teleport away. Inside his hell, he supposedly, claimed to be around Odin level in power. Characters talking crap = a feat now? Do tell. Inside his hell, he was equal to Galactus, turned Mjolnir to slag with a gesture, drew the full attention of the Living Tribunal. Let's not kid ourselves. Originally posted by zopzop

@Omega Vision

I agree it's BS, based on showings Odin > Galactus on average. Omega Vision, we just got IFPed. Infinite face palms.

Prep-Man
toss up.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Read Mephisto Vs. please. Characters talking crap = a feat now? Do tell.


No you misread my post. Thanos just got through dixking Mephisto out of a Cube and Mephisto was enraged. Thanos basically ignored him and his rants, turned his back to him and went about his business. Mephisto didn't do jack sxxt against Thanos even though he wanted too.

Earlier when he thought he had a functioning Cube, he willed the Cube to kill Thanos. But when it turned out the Cube was a dude, Mephisto took ZERO hostile actions vs Thanos, I guess he knew Thanos would kick his teeth in.



OMG no, not Galactus! laughing

He turned Mjolnir to slag, then reformed it and threw it at Thor? Does that make any sense? Wouldn't it make more sense if that was an illusion to screw with Thor's mind? There were scans of Thor smacking Mephisto in the jaw with Mjolnir and knocking him on his ass. I wish I saved those pics.

I don't remember the scan exactly but I could have sworn he was telling him not to mess with someone because it would cause an imbalance. Nothing to do with Mephisto's power level at all.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by zopzop
No you misread my post. Thanos just got through dixking Mephisto out of a Cube and Mephisto was enraged. Thanos basically ignored him and his rants, turned his back to him and went about his business. Mephisto didn't do jack sxxt against Thanos even though he wanted too.

Earlier when he thought he had a functioning Cube, he willed the Cube to kill Thanos. But when it turned out the Cube was a dude, Mephisto took ZERO hostile actions vs Thanos, I guess he knew Thanos would kick his teeth in.You misread the comic.

He tested it. He wanted the Cube. He didn't want the death of Thanos through the Cube. Once he realized he had no Cube, Thanos was inconsequential to his rage at being outsmarted at his own game. Originally posted by zopzop
OMG no, not Galactus!

He turned Mjolnir to slag, then reformed it and threw it at Thor? Does that make any sense? Wouldn't it make more sense if that was an illusion to screw with Thor's mind? There were scans of Thor smacking Mephisto in the jaw with Mjolnir and knocking him on his ass. I wish I saved those pics.

I don't remember the scan exactly but I could have sworn he was telling him not to mess with someone because it would cause an imbalance. Nothing to do with Mephisto's power level at all. Yes, Galactus.

No. That would not make sense. At all. Nice revisionist reading. Like to see you read the Bible and confront the Vatican. Be a show for sure.

You're right. You don't remember.

Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Mephisto was using illusions in that fight but it was never directly stated that his destruction/recreation of Mjolnir was an illusion.

However, it would make much more sense that it was an illusion like IIRC Odin was, based on his past interactions with Thor/Asgard and his goal in that issue. I believe he planned to demoralize Thor. Returning Mjolnir to him would be counterproductive.

Still, as nothing is conclusive, it's still speculation no matter how well it mashes up with the rest and you can't use that as a basis for a real argument.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And it was pretty clear that Doom wasn't using the Cosmic Cube to wish beatdowns on Marvel Earth. He was using Galactus' power to do that.

I already told you what happened. Unless the writer etc. made a comment that says otherwise, I have no reason to believe the Cosmic Cube wasn't added to the totality of Doom's power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just because Celestials rage-stomped a prepped and amped Odin doesn't mean they would have done the same to Galactus.

The fact that Celestials were considered to be above Galactus etc. however suggests that they would have.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. Just no.

The point stands that Mephisto didn't retcon Peter Parker's history by getting him to sign a contract and having it broken. The real distinction is that actions > words.

I have no reason either.

As opposed to focusing on early statements where Odin might have been speculated as being a peer to Galactus or feats by Death Gods which actually haven't been performed. Right.

Yes. But we'll see soon enough in May how the two compare in power.

The point is that contractual agreements seem to lend Death Gods a lot of power. They had an agreement. Mephisto fulfilled that agreement. Contracts don't exist only in paper. Do I have to go digging for an interview?

Might have been speculated? Lulz. I'm telling you the apparent case. You don't have to like it or even agree.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You misread the comic.

He tested it. He wanted the Cube. He didn't want the death of Thanos through the Cube. Once he realized he had no Cube, Thanos was inconsequential to his rage at being outsmarted at his own game.

You really want me to post the scans? As soon as he had the Cube he willed it to kill Thanos, it's right there in the damn book. Then when he found out he had a dud, he didn't dare confront Thanos and bounced. Thanos was ignoring his little rants and was so unimpressed by him, he turned his back to Mephisto and sat down.



I'm going to try and find the scan, but I almost 100% positive it had to do with Mephisto's meddling in affairs and not something related to his power.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Read Mephisto Vs. please. Characters talking crap = a feat now? Do tell. Inside his hell, he was equal to Galactus, turned Mjolnir to slag with a gesture, drew the full attention of the Living Tribunal. Let's not kid ourselves. Omega Vision, we just got IFPed. Infinite face palms.
I feel like I'm dumber having read Zozop and Rage's posts.

zopzop
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I feel like I'm dumber having read Zozop and Rage's posts.

So who forced you to read them? If it's so painful, put us on ignore or just scroll past our posts. Save the drama for people who care.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I feel like I'm dumber having read Zozop and Rage's posts.

baka Really? Care to actually contest anything in my posts instead of just being a whiny little prick?

I think Odin and Galactus are peers for the most part. There's nothing silly about that. Yes, during the age when Thomas was at helm -Odin's lowest level- and Galactus was pushed as the third Universal force, I think he was above Odin by a noticeable amount, but that era was quickly left behind with Odin being written as a Galactic level being under Simonson.

Omega Vision
^ Yes, I'm the whiny little prick here. I'm the one who's grasping at straws to boost my favorite character's supporting cast roll eyes (sarcastic)

I think your entire argument hinges on obsolete statements and past "depictions" rather than accurate understanding of the current status quo.

Basically it boils down to the Celestials shitting all over Odin and Galactus being seen as the Celestial's peer.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Mephisto was using illusions in that fight but it was never directly stated that his destruction/recreation of Mjolnir was an illusion.

However, it would make much more sense that it was an illusion like IIRC Odin was, based on his past interactions with Thor/Asgard and his goal in that issue. I believe he planned to demoralize Thor. Returning Mjolnir to him would be counterproductive.

Still, as nothing is conclusive, it's still speculation no matter how well it mashes up with the rest and you can't use that as a basis for a real argument. Just because Mephisto has used illusions doesn't make that scene an illusion. Mephisto's realm and its laws are subject to Mephisto's will completely. It's always been that way. A demonstration of that specific fact shouldn't be covered up with some flimsy speculation. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I already told you what happened. Unless the writer etc. made a comment that says otherwise, I have no reason to believe the Cosmic Cube wasn't added to the totality of Doom's power.

The fact that Celestials were considered to be above Galactus etc. however suggests that they would have.

Yes. But we'll see soon enough in May how the two compare in power. We both know what happened. We both know Doom didn't use the Cosmic Cube to wish Odin's beatdown. We both know Galactus' power was the ultimate goal of Doom despite the Cube. We both know that when Doom eventually lost the Cube, it was beneath his notice.

And Galactus is considered above Odin. Go figure. And seriously, don't get your hopes up. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The point is that contractual agreements seem to lend Death Gods a lot of power. They had an agreement. Mephisto fulfilled that agreement. Contracts don't exist only in paper. Do I have to go digging for an interview?

Might have been speculated? Lulz. I'm telling you the apparent case. You don't have to like it or even agree. Do you have to go digging for an interview because you apparently don't comprehend that actions > words? When Hela directly retcons Marvel Earth history, let me know. Characters have entered into contracts, been released and/or thwarted them and history hasn't been retconned. Cynthia von Doom, Johnny Blaze, Shalla Bal, etc.

I'm telling you that neither Odin, nor Hela have the power to retcon Marvel Earth. When they do so, let me know.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Omega Vision
^ Yes, I'm the whiny little prick here.

Well, at least you admit your faults.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think your entire argument hinges on obsolete statements and past "depictions" rather than accurate understanding of the current status quo.

Hey, if you can point me to a scene which shows Odin at lower levels then previously scene, then I'll concede. But as far as I know, Odin is no less powerful now than he was in his fight with Seth in the late 90's. Could you argue that his status is lower down the food chain? Sure, but as far as I know, there haven't been any real depictions of Odin going all out in a decade now. So, it'd be pure conjecture.

And you know what's ironic? Most of the people who want Odin to be below Galactus by some noticeable amount are usually the people who want Galactus to be some third Universal level force or truly cosmic entity.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Basically it boils down to the Celestials shitting all over Odin and Galactus being seen as the Celestial's peer.

Hilarity. The same Celestials whos hit over Odin would shit over Galactus.

And it's amusing how people use Odin's basically lowest point since his creation -at that time- as the basis for his standing in power levels. If I were to do the same for Galactus? Well....it wouldn't be pretty for the big guy.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And it's amusing how people use Odin's basically lowest point since his creation -at that time- as the basis for his standing in power levels. If I were to do the same for Galactus? What do you mean... "if"? Such thinking is the fundamental basis for your belief that Odin is a peer of Galactus.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Lulz.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just because Mephisto has used illusions doesn't make that scene an illusion. Mephisto's realm and its laws are subject to Mephisto's will completely. It's always been that way. A demonstration of that specific fact shouldn't be covered up with some flimsy speculation. We both know what happened.

No, it doesn't by it's nature. I'm simply telling you that there is a good possibility and that it would make it a lot more sense. Like I said, it's not conclusive as it involves speculation. Calling it flimsy speculation won't change the fact that it makes sense. I'm not trying to pass it off as what happened.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We both know Doom didn't use the Cosmic Cube to wish Odin's beatdown. We both know Galactus' power was the ultimate goal of Doom despite the Cube. We both know that when Doom eventually lost the Cube, it was beneath his notice.

Lawlz, we do? Whatever you say bud.

Doom was crazy, mad with power, blah blah blah. You know all this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And Galactus is considered above Odin. Go figure. And seriously, don't get your hopes up. Do you have to go digging for an interview because you apparently don't comprehend that actions > words? When Hela directly retcons Marvel Earth history, let me know. Characters have entered into contracts, been released and/or thwarted them and history hasn't been retconned. Cynthia von Doom, Johnny Blaze, Shalla Bal, etc.

On average? Sure, I can live with that but I believe that to only be the case with a fed Galactus etc. and/or the usually seen "base level" Odin.

Of course actions > words. No one ever contested that. I am however pointing out that contractual agreements grant higher end demons like Mephisto and Hela (Who I would have argued to be nigh equals in at least combined forces if not individual might) a lot of power when necessary. Quesada and/or Breevort touched on this in the past -for whatever it's worth- and now it's just established in continuity. I do not understand why you have trouble accepting that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm telling you that neither Odin, nor Hela have the power to retcon Marvel Earth. When they do so, let me know.

In the Avengers/Fantastic Four: Domination Factor series, Loki used Odin's magic inside a ceremonial golden apple to rewrite reality, and at the end of the story it was again used to restore the MU proper.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/386/16890072.th.jpg

In Thor #499, Odin's sword, which he had infused with memories of Asgard, had enough residual magic in it to create an alternate reality complete with its own set of gods.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8068/odinsword.th.jpghttp://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5104/thor49918.th.jpghttp://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3388/thor50021.th.jpg

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol at more of this Odin=Galactus bullshit.

Mindset
Rage, stop embarrassing me, it's hard enough to be your friend already. sad

Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm sorry bro. sad I won't preach the unpopular -yet correct- opinion next time. God forbid I change some minds or destroy the made up status quo people have in their heads.

Mindset
Wait, is this that comedy routine you've been telling me about?

Haha, you had me going there for a bit.

Rage.Of.Olympus
ahah

Edit: You've guys taken too long to reply. I'm going to bed.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lulz.

No, it doesn't by it's nature. I'm simply telling you that there is a good possibility and that it would make it a lot more sense. Like I said, it's not conclusive as it involves speculation. Calling it flimsy speculation won't change the fact that it makes sense. I'm not trying to pass it off as what happened. "Good possibility" says you. "Ridiculously forced speculation" says I. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lawlz, we do? Whatever you say bud.

Doom was crazy, mad with power, blah blah blah. You know all this. Right, apparently the one thing that was oh so important to Odin's beatdown happened to fall out without Doom even noticing. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
On average? Sure, I can live with that but I believe that to only be the case with a fed Galactus etc. and/or the usually seen "base level" Odin.

Of course actions > words. No one ever contested that. I am however pointing out that contractual agreements grant higher end demons like Mephisto and Hela (Who I would have argued to be nigh equals in at least combined forces if not individual might) a lot of power when necessary. Quesada and/or Breevort touched on this in the past -for whatever it's worth- and now it's just established in continuity. I do not understand why you have trouble accepting that. You can continue with your "on average" qualification and make yourself feel better. I don't care enough to dispute it. And it doesn't change that Galactus > Odin.

I do not understand why you wholly rely on a Death God's "contractual power" when it's actually disproven on-panel. Or that you ignore that Mephisto's highest on-panel feats >>>>>>>>> Hela's highest on-panel feats. Or that even granting Hela's non-feat as an argument, you ignore that Mephisto's feat wasn't a consequence of a contractual breaking wiping out past events, but a contractual undertaking wiping out past events. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
In the Avengers/Fantastic Four: Domination Factor series, Loki used Odin's magic inside a ceremonial golden apple to rewrite reality, and at the end of the story it was again used to restore the MU proper.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/386/16890072.th.jpg

In Thor #499, Odin's sword, which he had infused with memories of Asgard, had enough residual magic in it to create an alternate reality complete with its own set of gods.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8068/odinsword.th.jpghttp://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5104/thor49918.th.jpghttp://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3388/thor50021.th.jpg Domination Factor was as much about time-travelling alteration of events and convenient nexus of mystical/physical planes of existence as it was about the magical macguffin golden apple of Idunn. The cause and the resolution of the time rewrite. We both know this.

We also both know that the other Asgard and Asgardians were pale reflections of true Asgard and the true Asgardians. That's still not retconning history.

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm sorry bro. sad I won't preach the unpopular -yet correct- opinion next time. God forbid I change some minds or destroy the made up status quo people have in their heads.

for my part i've offered a BZ. i'll take odin and someone can take galactus. quanchii already ran from the challenge. like any tourney match, we'll go by feats and on-panel evidence to decide a winner.

am i saying odin>galactus? no. what i am saying is that based on feats and past history, demonstrations in power make this a lot closer than most are willing to allow. and that is NOT using low-end galactus feats in the least.

so, meh.

leonidas
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Basically it boils down to the Celestials shitting all over Odin and Galactus being seen as the Celestial's peer.

proof of this?

on a seperate note: status and power are 2 seperate things entirely. in the cosmic hierarchy, galactus's ROLE/STATUS>>>>>>>>>>>>odin's role/status. however, status does not necessarily imply power.....

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
But as far as I know, Odin is no less powerful now than he was in his fight with Seth in the late 90's. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And it's amusing how people use Odin's basically lowest point since his creation -at that time- as the basis for his standing in power levels.

Hmm...

psycho gundam
lulz

Deadline
Meh.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by leonidas
am i saying odin>galactus? no. Originally posted by leonidas
so, meh.

leonidas
confused

Black bolt z
Originally posted by zopzop
I agree it's BS, based on showings Odin > Galactus on average. You still have never proved this.

SuperMan103
ymir.

zopzop
Originally posted by Black bolt z
You still have never proved this.

I'm not about to post scan after scan of crap that's common knowledge.

On average Odin > Galactus.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by zopzop
I'm not about to post scan after scan of crap that's common knowledge.

On average Odin > Galactus. No hes not.

Rage.Of.Olympus

OneDumbG0
^ Horsecrap on about every single level. I'm not spinning sh1t.

First, Domination Factor. I haven't read it in a while, but I did read it. Everything that the apple did of consequence involved the timestream. Fact: the whole adventure started because the Golden Apple froze the timestream when it was split apart. Fact: present-day Earth was only warped after Thor was offed in the far past and the Golden Apple was reunited and its power activated within the nexus of mystical/physical planes of existence. Fact: everything was restored when Knorda used the Golden Apple again to undo all those time travel shenanigans, particularly Loki leading Thor to his death in the past, with more time-travel shenanigans.

I'm not saying that the reality rewrite was simply a Back to the Future rip-off, but my statement stands: "Domination Factor was as much about time-travelling alteration of events and convenient nexus of mystical/physical planes of existence as it was about the magical macguffin golden apple of Idunn."

Concerning the conflation of Mephisto's power with his contractual agreements, you've missed the point entirely or are ignoring it. Death God contractual agreements have been broken and directly thwarted in the past. Retcons didn't happen every time. In fact, it hasn't even happened once on-panel. So, no, I'm not going to conclude Hela and Mephisto are equals because Hela threatened a non-feat. All you're basically trying to do is project all retcon power into the Death God contract itself. You're putting the cart before the horse.

Spiderman's retcon wasn't a retcon feat performed by a broken Death God contract. Spiderman's retcon was a retcon feat performed by Mephisto in order to create a binding Death God contract. Mephisto didn't rely on the retcon power of a broken Death Contract to do what he did. Any suggestion to the contrary is absurd. I'm done arguing this false cause fallacy.

Finally, Odin making sh1tty versions of Asgard and Asgardians isn't retconning Marvel Earth history.

Enough with this nonsense.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Concerning the conflation of Mephisto's power.........

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7691/crusades0639.th.jpg http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4646/crusades0640.th.jpg



laughing @ Mephisto's "power"

OneDumbG0
^ Seriously, step off your faulty reliance on Mephisto's anger over being beaten at his own game with superior gamesmanship. That is not an indication that Thanos is more powerful than Mephisto.

Mephisto's power already stalemated Galactus who anally-raped Thanos. Thanos isn't retconning Marvel Earth unless he has THOTU or the IG. So think for a second about what scope of power Mephisto operates on, even when he limits his engagement to limited schemes.

Or don't.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Seriously, step off your faulty reliance on Mephisto's anger over being beaten at his own game with superior gamesmanship. That is not an indication that Thanos is more powerful than Mephisto.

Mephisto's power already stalemated Galactus who anally-raped Thanos. Thanos isn't retconning Marvel Earth unless he has THOTU or the IG. So think for a second about what scope of power Mephisto operates on, even when he limits his engagement to limited schemes.

Or don't.

That was Mephisto in his own realm, and even then Galactus was about to consume that b!tch and Mephisto blinked.

Outside his realm, he's a pxxsy as those scans show. Or do you think Thanos would turn his back like that on an enraged Ymir?

OneDumbG0
^ Outside his realm he retconned Marvel Earth. And Thanos has walked away from confrontations, doesn't make him a pu$$y either. So seriously, stop embarassing yourself.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by zopzop
Or do you think Thanos would turn his back like that on an enraged Ymir? you just called tyrant a pussy



......and the in-betweener http://i54.tinypic.com/2ymgaq1.gif

zopzop
Originally posted by psycho gundam
you just called tyrant a pussy



......and the in-betweener http://i54.tinypic.com/2ymgaq1.gif

You lost me.

psycho gundam
then turned my back on you cause i'm done

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Outside his realm he retconned Marvel Earth. And Thanos has walked away from confrontations, doesn't make him a pu$$y either. So seriously, stop embarassing yourself.

No trust me, he's a pxxsy. Here is plain old Thor kicking his teeth in, in his own realm :
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8730/thor198131019.th.jpg http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8582/thor198131022.th.jpg

That's not King Thor, Rune King Thor or Odin empowered Thor, that's just Thor. Notice how Mephisto even admits if Thor wanted to stay in his realm and continue the fight, it would be a stalemate forever.

Compare that to how Ymir treated Thor on Earth :

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7197/76595098.th.jpg

To add insult to injury, someone said that this was Odinforce powered Thor, don't know and can't confirm but maybe someone else can. But even if it's just plain Thor, Ymir did better against him than Mephisto even with Mephisto being in his own realm.

OneDumbG0
^ Two options: (i) you're just that dumb to believe that Mephisto isn't that powerful, or (ii) you're trolling.

Galactus was just about matching Mephisto in his realm. Instead of understanding this, you show scans of Thor batting around Mephisto. I suppose your purpose is to somehow diminish the idea that Mephisto is powerful in his realm. If you're trying to sincerely present that (without its context) as evidence at its face value of that proposition, then you believe Thor > Galactus now. Since Thor dealt with Mephisto easier than Galactus did.

(i) After all, you're being completely sincere now and not just being an utter troll. Sorry, but you're uninformed, mistaken and mentally deficient. (ii) Alternatively, to the extent that you want to pretend to be informed, you're a troll.

(i) So thanks for wasting our time for being that r-tard about this. (ii) Or (as you guessed it), thank you for so quickly taking a precipitious dive into blatant trollery lowballing. After all, we didn't waste any further time engaging in sincere discourse that would have otherwise fallen on a deaf pair of ears, or a blind pair of eyes.

zopzop
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Two options: (i) you're just that dumb to believe that Mephisto isn't that powerful, or (ii) you're trolling.

Galactus was just about matching Mephisto in his realm. Instead of understanding this, you show scans of Thor batting around Mephisto. I suppose your purpose is to somehow diminish the idea that Mephisto is powerful in his realm. If you're trying to sincerely present that (without its context) as evidence at its face value of that proposition, then you believe Thor > Galactus now. Since Thor dealt with Mephisto easier than Galactus did.

(i) After all, you're being completely sincere now and not just being an utter troll. Sorry, but you're uninformed, mistaken and mentally deficient. (ii) Alternatively, to the extent that you want to pretend to be informed, you're a troll.

(i) So thanks for wasting our time for being that r-tard about this. (ii) Or (as you guessed it), thank you for so quickly taking a precipitious dive into blatant trollery lowballing. After all, we didn't waste any further time engaging in sincere discourse that would have otherwise fallen on a deaf pair of ears, or a blind pair of eyes.

Wow nice job getting personal over a fuggin' comic. Fact is Thor humiliated Mephisto in his realm. It's right there on panel. Galactus stalemated him and that is also on panel. The thing is, which of these two fights is the aberration and which is the norm.

If I'm not mistaken, Thor has taken it to Mephisto multiple times in his own realm with results similar to the above scans. Mephisto admitted it himself that he couldn't put Thor down and Thor likewise couldn't put him down.

I also need to see which was the more recent encounter. I'll check that later.

OneDumbG0
^ I call it how I see it.

Mephisto can't extinguish Thor's fighting spirit and possess his soul. Posession of his soul requires that Mephisto not outright kill him, otherwise his soul is lost to him.

Mephisto fighting Galactus (who has no soul) is not an aberration. Neither is Mephisto getting smacked around by heroes who are literally as fleas to him in his realm. That's not an aberration either. Because that's the game he plays. It's not an indication of limitations in power.

celeyhyga17
Galactus > Odin =/> Mephisto > Thor ???

Falamu
Mephisto wins this. Easily. I mean, come on, it's fire against ice, so...

Black bolt z
According to Zop Odin>Thor>Thanos>Galactus>Mephisto in mephistos realm.

753
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol at more of this Odin=Galactus bullshit. thumb up this is indeed a huge load of crap. G has been shown time and again to be on par or above the celestials, he's an abstract. odin is a skyfahter. there were none of them at the fault holding the cancerverse at bay during thanos imperative. why? cause they dont have what it takes. people should stop clinging on to the 70s


Mephisto wins

Rage.Of.Olympus

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
G has been shown time and again to be on par or above the celestials, he's an abstract. odin is a skyfahter.

really? so care to show us all even ONE of these times? and while you're at it, wanna prove galactus is an abstract?



well, at least in this you're right.

leonidas
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Two options: (i) you're just that dumb to believe that Mephisto isn't that powerful, or (ii) you're trolling.

Galactus was just about matching Mephisto in his realm. Instead of understanding this, you show scans of Thor batting around Mephisto. I suppose your purpose is to somehow diminish the idea that Mephisto is powerful in his realm. If you're trying to sincerely present that (without its context) as evidence at its face value of that proposition, then you believe Thor > Galactus now. Since Thor dealt with Mephisto easier than Galactus did.

(i) After all, you're being completely sincere now and not just being an utter troll. Sorry, but you're uninformed, mistaken and mentally deficient. (ii) Alternatively, to the extent that you want to pretend to be informed, you're a troll.

(i) So thanks for wasting our time for being that r-tard about this. (ii) Or (as you guessed it), thank you for so quickly taking a precipitious dive into blatant trollery lowballing. After all, we didn't waste any further time engaging in sincere discourse that would have otherwise fallen on a deaf pair of ears, or a blind pair of eyes.

pretty much. mephisto in his realm has also wtfpwnd thor and pretty much every other hero including ss. when he has poor showings its generally because he's playing some game or other. a seriously po'd mephiso is something not often seen but is not something to trifle with.

OneDumbG0
@ Rage.Of.Olympus:

Again. HORSE. CRAP.

Let's take a look at some rather obvious scans you're leaving out and the actual progression of events that leads to the reality change. What do we know? As soon as Knorda's Apple splits apart, time freezes except for those who are protected by Loki. After that, the heroes literally spend 6 out of the 8 issues time-traveling to their pasts to retrieve the pieces. The crucial event however that occurred is that Thor dies in the past, having been ambushed by Giants and then, before being claimed by Hela, entrapped in a tree:
http://img215.imageshack.us/i/warp4.jpg/

This single event changes history and the present already as reflected by Thor vanishing. Which means he's never around anymore in Marvel Earth history, which alters the Marvel Earth's present time. That's what happens here:
http://img200.imageshack.us/i/warp5.jpg/
http://img821.imageshack.us/i/warp6.jpg/

How do we know that the timestream reflects exactly that Thor never played out his life in Marvel Earth history? People start forgetting he ever existed right away as reflected in the first scan. How do we know his death is the lynchpin to all the changes? Reed SAYS SO in the second scan, "Thor may not exist here, Ben. But I think he's the lynchpin! He was sent into the past . . . when he was killed.":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Domination2.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Domination1.jpg

That was the basis of Loki's entire plan which relied on Knorda's Apple: to change history such that he was rid of the super-heroes who have historically vexed him, especially Thor along with the Avengers he accidentally created. Loki's entire plan was birthed from being haunted by history. He explains this in villain monologues to Knorda:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Domination3.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor03DominationFactorFF4.jpg

OneDumbG0
So what do we have? Already, it is a fact that history is changed simply from all the time-travel shenanigans occurring in the past. Changing the past, changes the present. You know this. That, in itself, should tell you this is mainly a time-travel Back to the Future style adventure. That's how the changes to the present reality were made. And what exactly were the changes? Everything looks futuristic and there are no super-heroes and Loki+Knorda rule the world.

Now, you may think I'm merely hypothesizing this connection between time-travel and the reality change... since it happened off-panel in that flash of power when the Apple is recombined. But I'm not theory-crafting. This is actually explained in the comics. The changes to the past were exactly why everything looks futuristic and there are no heroes: (i) Reed looks at the futuristic technology and theorizes, "Some crucial development in this world's past obviously put it on a path to technological superiority! A war, perhaps? Or lack thereof?"; (ii) Reed realizes that "Here, the others and I never journeyed into space, were never bombarded by cosmic rays! There is no Fantastic Four!"; (iii) Cap says, "If I ended up here, it must mean I never received the super-soldier serum -- must never have gone into suspended animation."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor04DominationFactorFF4.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor05DominationFactorFF4.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor06DominationFactorFF4.jpg



Yes, Loki remade the world, "reshaped this mudball to liking." But he did it by affecting specific changes in the past, so that the world's history would play out to his liking and make the world as it always has been through a "time paradox":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/DominationFactor08DominationFactorAvengers4.jpg



The real nail in the coffin though? The specific method used to change everything back. At the climax of the story, the heroes reclaim Knorda's Apple. Well... once they reclaim it, do they simply wish reality to revert? After all, since you think the Odinpower contained in it could simply remake all of reality... why couldn't Knorda just simply reverse the changes in the present? Answer: She had to undo what the Apple actually wrought, i.e., the changes to the past which affected the present.

They all understand what it is now, "The Apple! That's the true key to the past, isn't it!" And Knorda does exactly what you would have to do to undo temporal changes in the past. She travels back to the past right before Thor is killed, where "There, I shall set things right!" by banishing the time-travelling astral form of Loki before he leads Thor into an ambush. And immediately thereafter, reality is restored:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor09.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor10.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor11.jpg



Like I said before, "Horsecrap on about every single level. I'm not spinning sh1t." Scans speak for themselves. And spinning back an hour's worth of time with the combined might of Asgard isn't retconning Spiderman. Get your sh1t outta here.

leonidas
that's always been the way i've interpretted it also. there was an x-men arc with phoenix i think where something similar happened.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Domination3.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_DominationFactor03DominationFactorFF4.jpg

Before we continue, where is this from? I can't find this page in any of the comics.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Like I said before, "Horsecrap on about every single level. I'm not spinning sh1t." Scans speak for themselves. And spinning back an hour's worth of time with the combined might of Asgard isn't retconning Spiderman. Get your sh1t outta here.

Lawlz.

And the combined might of Asgard thing was just shit talking to see if Thor was willing to sacrifice his power as I read it. No, it's not the exact same feat, but it's as impressive as wiping records of Spider-Man's face.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Before we continue, where is this from? I can't find this page in any of the comics. From #6 and 7 IIRC. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lawlz.

And the combined might of Asgard thing was just shit talking to see if Thor was willing to sacrifice his power as I read it. No, it's not the exact same feat, but it's as impressive as wiping records of Spider-Man's face. Why would it be sh1t-talking? He said it required much of all Asgard, who was blameless in the carnage that Thor and Loki caused. For such a price, he demanded Thor's birthright. Thor sincerely giving it up was enough.

And I already told you this, Mephisto didn't just wipe records of Spiderman's face. The marriage between Mary Jane and Spiderman was completely undone from their histories, everybody's histories. Covering up Spiderman's revealing his face during Civil War was the most superficial part of what occurred.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
From #6 and 7 IIRC.

#3.5 and #3.6? I'll re-download them from a different source. Guess the ones I got were missing those.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Why would it be sh1t-talking? He said it required much of all Asgard, who was blameless in the carnage that Thor and Loki caused. For such a price, he demanded Thor's birthright. Thor sincerely giving it up was enough.

Because he wanted to see if Thor was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, his power/birthright etc. In doing so, he proved himself. IIRC, this was explained on the last page of #5.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I already told you this, Mephisto didn't just wipe records of Spiderman's face. The marriage between Mary Jane and Spiderman was completely undone from their histories, everybody's histories. Covering up Spiderman's revealing his face during Civil War was the most superficial part of what occurred.

I know what happened. I just didn't feel the need to get descriptive.

I'm lazy, sue me.

Mephisto wiped the records of his identity and their marriage. Happy? Still, nothing beyond Odin's capabilities.

If you already complained about this, I apologize, but I haven't read your last two posts in their entirety. Too much work.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
#3.5 and #3.6? I'll re-download them from a different source. Guess the ones I got were missing those.

Because he wanted to see if Thor was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, his power/birthright etc. In doing so, he proved himself. IIRC, this was explained on the last page of #5. So Odin was bullsh1tting, he could do it easy. That's one way to interpret it. But wholly needless. This theory of Odin's "white lie" was not intimated, but less explained in the last page. Odin just welcomed him back after Thor's long exile because he was willing to sacrifice his birthright in exchange. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I know what happened. I just didn't feel the need to get descriptive.

I'm lazy, sue me.

Mephisto wiped the records of his identity and their marriage. Happy? Still, nothing beyond Odin's capabilities.

If you already complained about this, I apologize, but I haven't read your last two posts in their entirety. Too much work. Could Odin wipe memories/records of his secret identity from humanity? Sure. He's done as much on-panel already. Sentry did it too. Even Maxwell Lord pumped with blood did it. That's not all that Mephisto did. Mephisto didn't just wipe records or memories of their marriage away. He completely undid their marriage and altered everything thereafter. Odin's not doing that.

Allankles
Isn't Ymir mostly a blunt instrument? I thought Mephisto had enough mojo both powerwise and versatility wise to deal with an elemental type.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So Odin was bullsh1tting, he could do it easy. That's one way to interpret it. But wholly needless. This theory of Odin's "white lie" was not intimated, but less explained in the last page. Odin just welcomed him back after Thor's long exile because he was willing to sacrifice his birthright in exchange.

I didn't say easy, but I do think he was bullshitting. Like I said, Odin wanted to see if Thor was willing to sacrifice his birthright. He did, and so, he was welcomed back into Asgard and was allowed to keep his power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Could Odin wipe memories/records of his secret identity from humanity? Sure. He's done as much on-panel already. Sentry did it too. Even Maxwell Lord pumped with blood did it. That's not all that Mephisto did. Mephisto didn't just wipe records or memories of their marriage away. He completely undid their marriage and altered everything thereafter. Odin's not doing that.

Disagreed.

Going to have to wait for a bit for my reply to the rest. The chronology I'm downloading is taking a while.

zopzop
@Allankles

Mephisto hasn't even put down Thor in any convincing manner, how's he gonna beat a guy that hangs with Surtur and KOed Thor.

I just need confirmation on Thor's status at the time, was it Odinforce Thor or regular Thor? Either way, that's more than Mephisto did.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Mephisto's showing with Mjolnir is more impressive than what Ymir did.

But it's so above anything else in their encounters I think it's an illusion.

Allankles
Originally posted by zopzop
@Allankles

Mephisto hasn't even put down Thor in any convincing manner, how's he gonna beat a guy that hangs with Surtur and KOed Thor.

I just need confirmation on Thor's status at the time, was it Odinforce Thor or regular Thor? Either way, that's more than Mephisto did.

You're talking about Odin powered Thor he's ko'ing or regular Thor? Because if it's the latter, that wouldn't put him above Mephisto, and if it's the former, context is needed (for instance whether or not Mephisto attacked Thor in similar fashion etc etc).

I'm sure there are better areas for comparison. From the little I've seen of Ymir even the latest Thor battle, he seems like a very strong physical force but that's it. Mephisto can do far more exotic things in the realms of matter manipulation and other magic based powers.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mephisto's showing with Mjolnir is more impressive than what Ymir did.

But it's so above anything else in their encounters I think it's an illusion.

The way Thor basically RAPED Mephisto in Thor 310 has me believing that Mjolnir trick was either an illusion or a once in a lifetime feat.

PS was that Odinforce Thor or not Rage, do you know? I'm talking about that recent appearance in that free Avengers issue.

Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Thor had his portion of the Odin Force at the time.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Thor had his portion of the Odin Force at the time.

Portion? Who had the rest? I don't really follow Thor. But if he was at least Odin level, then Ymir's win rape stomps anything Mephisto has done outside his realm.

Hell it stomps anything Mephisto has done in his realm vs Thor. The Mjolnir melting feat is suspect because it's not like Mephisto hasn't used illusions before to screw with someone's mind. Didn't he "summon" Odin's spirit one time in order to trick Thor and that turned out to be an illusion?

Black bolt z
Mephisto still wins.

753
Originally posted by leonidas
really? so care to show us all even ONE of these times? and while you're at it, wanna prove galactus is an abstract?



well, at least in this you're right. Black Celestial arc show his power could consume universes. Annihilation showed his body rigged as a two-universe destroying bomb. He is the equity face of the LT, balancing death/oblivion and eternity/infinity out and thus maitaining the universe alive.
is repeatedly called an abstract along T&A and the celestials throughout thanos imperative, just to cite the most recent event. he is quite clearly on par and probably above them as TI showed him holding the galactus engine at bay by himself near the end. he interacts with eternity and other abrstracts with his own m-body (that can also be ssen as his real form outside the armor).

the in-betweener, who is a magical equivalent of G in the coscmic hierarchy (balancing chaos and order out), can be seen as one of the abstracts in the dimension of abstract concepts along LT and eternity when hank pym visits it, G is his equal in power on average (in fact, their encounter explicitly showed this) and his higher end showings dwarf the IB's. I'm puzzled as to how anyone could doubt G is an abstract.

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
Black Celestial arc show his power could consume universes. Annihilation showed his body rigged as a two-universe destroying bomb. He is the equity face of the LT, balancing death/oblivion and eternity/infinity out and thus maitaining the universe alive.
is repeatedly called an abstract along T&A and the celestials throughout thanos imperative, just to cite the most recent event. he is quite clearly on par and probably above them as TI showed him holding the galactus engine at bay by himself near the end. he interacts with eternity and other abrstracts with his own m-body (that can also be ssen as his real form outside the armor).

the in-betweener, who is a magical equivalent of G in the coscmic hierarchy (balancing chaos and order out), can be seen as one of the abstracts in the dimension of abstract concepts along LT and eternity when hank pym visits it, G is his equal in power on average (in fact, their encounter explicitly showed this) and his higher end showings dwarf the IB's. I'm puzzled as to how anyone could doubt G is an abstract.

black celestial arc showed nothing--his hunger was manipulated BY a celestial whom g was actually afraid of. if anything, the fact that the dreamer could so easily alter g shows clearly that g is well below at least THAT celestial. celestials have created pocket universes--WAY above anything g has done. arishem was unaffected by MULTIPLE skyfathers' power. thor alone has harmed galactus and even thanos blasted a well-fed g across a moon.

on average, celestials>>g on panel.

where is it revealed g is the equity face of lt? one time he LIKENED g to equity. that does NOT mean g represents equity at all, or that he is lt's 'face'.

g is most certainly NOT called an abstract b most. he is a PHYSICAL being capable of adopting an m-body. he is a living being from the previous universe granted vast power. abstracts don't die of starvation. no expression they also represent a concept. g's role is still a mystery--even to him. he's even died. the ability to adopt an m-body doesn't make him an abstract. stranger has m-bodies as well. he is no abstract either. celestials are not abstracts either, btw.

strange ALONE has stalemated the inbetweener and even thanos was seen to apparently match his power output so stalemating IB for a while REALLY wasn't all that great a feat and you're considering him an equal 'on average' doesn't really help your case. the ability to blow up and destroy 2 universes was impressive but since it never happened we don't know if that really would have taken place and it certainly goes against all previous showings of g's level of power, his highest end showings being less than odin's.

again, i'm more than happy bz'ing odin vs galactus. nothing you said was all that impressive and some of it was flat out wrong.

Galan007
Originally posted by 753
Annihilation showed his body rigged as a two-universe destroying bomb. Huh?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by leonidas
black celestial arc showed nothing--his hunger was manipulated BY a celestial whom g was actually afraid of. if anything, the fact that the dreamer could so easily alter g shows clearly that g is well below at least THAT celestial. celestials have created pocket universes--WAY above anything g has done. arishem was unaffected by MULTIPLE skyfathers' power. thor alone has harmed galactus and even thanos blasted a well-fed g across a moon.

on average, celestials>>g on panel.

where is it revealed g is the equity face of lt? one time he LIKENED g to equity. that does NOT mean g represents equity at all, or that he is lt's 'face'.

g is most certainly NOT called an abstract b most. he is a PHYSICAL being capable of adopting an m-body. he is a living being from the previous universe granted vast power. abstracts don't die of starvation. no expression they also represent a concept. g's role is still a mystery--even to him. he's even died. the ability to adopt an m-body doesn't make him an abstract. stranger has m-bodies as well. he is no abstract either. celestials are not abstracts either, btw.

strange ALONE has stalemated the inbetweener and even thanos was seen to apparently match his power output so stalemating IB for a while REALLY wasn't all that great a feat and you're considering him an equal 'on average' doesn't really help your case. the ability to blow up and destroy 2 universes was impressive but since it never happened we don't know if that really would have taken place and it certainly goes against all previous showings of g's level of power, his highest end showings being less than odin's.

again, i'm more than happy bz'ing odin vs galactus. nothing you said was all that impressive and some of it was flat out wrong.

thumb up

753
Originally posted by leonidas
black celestial arc showed nothing--his hunger was manipulated BY a celestial whom g was actually afraid of. if anything, the fact that the dreamer could so easily alter g shows clearly that g is well below at least THAT celestial. celestials have created pocket universes--WAY above anything g has done. arishem was unaffected by MULTIPLE skyfathers' power. thor alone has harmed galactus and even thanos blasted a well-fed g across a moon.his hunger was tempered with, his power wasn't IIRC. he could consume a universe if he so desired, but he would never do this this under normal circumstances as he only eats enough to sate his hunger and is actually quite concerned with the survival of the cosmos as shown in BCA itself. lol at the thor comment


G is necessary to the balance between death and eternity, as per the abraxas arc and several others that referenced it. if you believe he should represent a concept to be considered an abstract, this would be it, much like the IB balances chaos and order out, G balances life and death. the 3 faces of the LT correspond to opposing forces in the universe and their balance. Necessity correponds to eternity, vengeance to death and equity to G. that is what the LT meant, obviously.

well, he's called an abstract in the TI along the proemial gods and the celestials. most in the forums call celestials, true beyonders, etc. abstracts because the term is used as the name of a power tier, like herald.



No shit, eternity and oblivion have been pawned by everyone from trans to midmeta level characters and the LT couldnt put korvac down amirite? Are they any less abstract in definition or power level because of this PIS nonsense? is the IB not an abstract?


lol you talked out of your ass through your entire post and ignored a lot of points I made, but fair enough, let's BZ G vs odin. I actually dont have any scans of G myself, but I'm sure I can find them lying arround or ask people for them. how do we set up a BZ exactly?

753
Originally posted by Galan007
Huh? he was converted by annihilus into a PC bomb that would sweep both the regular universe and the negative zone causing a total extinction event.

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
his hunger was tempered with, his power wasn't IIRC. he could consume a universe if he so desired, but he would never do this this under normal circumstances as he only eats enough to sate his hunger and is actually quite concerned with the survival of the cosmos as shown in BCA itself. lol at the thor comment

his hunger is directly related to his power. you alos have no proof whatsoever that he could absorb a universe under his own, unaltered power. pure speculation, as per most of your post. more importantly, it doesn't change the fact that he was altered BY a celestial you say he was greater than.



g is NOT necessary, as was shown when he, you know, died. no expression likened does mean equal. g does have a role. it remains a mystery however. keeping abraxas in check is a part--though when he died and became a star abraxas didn't seem to want to come out.....



most in the forums are wrong then, although i've never heard or seen anyone refer to either g or a celestial an abstract. so who ARE 'most of these people', exactly?



really? so which trans being has pwn'd eternity and oblivion again exactly? and lt couldn't put down korvac or chose NOT to in a what if universe. g has been beaten and stalemated MULTIPLE times by HERO level characters. a slight difference.



they are EMBODIMENTS of concepts. g is a PHYSICAL being. IB is a creation of order and chaos, NOT a physical being and he does represent their balance.



really? so staing your interpretation of events ISN'T talking out of your ass? laughing out loud

and.... which point did i ignore again? your categorization of g as an abstract is completely wrong, as is your estimation of his being equal to a celestial going by on-panel feats. his role in the cosmic scheme is greater than theirs, but status does not equate to power at all.



SWEET! we just start it up on a date we both agree and grab some judges that are trusted. simple as.

753
Originally posted by leonidas
his hunger is directly related to his power. you alos have no proof whatsoever that he could absorb a universe under his own, unaltered power. pure speculation, as per most of your post. more importantly, it doesn't change the fact that he was altered BY a celestial you say he was greater than.
his power is directly connected to how much he eats, not to how hungry he gets, so your claim makes no sense. with his hunger warped, he began devouring everything arround. when did I say he was above the black celestial? remember the celestials arent all the same
hmm? If i recall the timeline correctly, it is after he dies and his remains become a star that abraxas is released.

iceman koed oblivion on panel and do you seriously want to go into eternity's record of embarassments?


actually, he's not all that physical. people just see what they want when they look at him, but he is a transcendent entity. I'll meet you half way though, he isn't the exact same type of entity as death and eternity (neither is the IB) but he is the balance between them and they themselves consider him as such.

the entire abraxas affair and G's cosmic role were ignored on your previous post.

ok, who do you like?

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
eternity and oblivion have been pawned by midmeta level characters

somehow i'd missed this initially. a midmeta character has pwn'd eternity and oblivion? so, who was this exactly.....?

753
Originally posted by leonidas
somehow i'd missed this initially. a midmeta character has pwn'd eternity and oblivion? so, who was this exactly.....? iceman, who at the time was a midmeta IMO KOed oblivion on panel with a mountain of ice. that's how marvel abstracts roll.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
somehow i'd missed this initially. a midmeta character has pwn'd eternity and oblivion? so, who was this exactly.....?

Just in case he's late answering, I believe Oblivion was buried beneath a 'love avalanche' by Iceman and beaten. I'm not kidding, it had stop moronic name like that, 'love avalanche' or 'life avalanche' something like that.

Eternity, is trickier he could be referring to Nightmare? He comatosed Eternity. This is a guy (Nightmare) that Dr. Strange beat by putting him in a full nelson till he submitted laughing out loud

EDIT :

He beat me to it :P

It was Iceman, I wonder who the meta was in reference to Eternity?

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
his power is directly connected to how much he eats, not to how hungry he gets, so your claim makes no sense.

of course it is. the more he eats the more powerful. his hunger became INSATIABLE because of the tampering. without it, he would be SATED. without his hunger being changed by the celestial, you have no way of saying he could absorb the universe. he couldn't absorb ALL of it as we have seen there are parts he can't absorb already.



so he's only above CERTAIN ones? like who? and how are you going to prove it exactly?



actually, i think you're right about this. thumb up



fair nuff. i know bill saw him as something different so he is a bit difficult to categorize.



i didn't ignore them, i SAID abraxas was part of his role, just that his entire role was and is unknown. i also said his role is vital for some reason--moreso than the celestials--but status doesn't equal power.



as judges? blair, digi, bada, pr, mungi, odg, inimalist, bran (sr jb), existere, galan, gundam.

there are likely others, but i think those guys are all pretty unbiased and knowledgeable so could judge fairly.

we'd need some stips as well. standard versions of both? they meet before the gates of asgard? anything else?

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
iceman, who at the time was a midmeta IMO KOed oblivion on panel with a mountain of ice. that's how marvel abstracts roll.

ahhhh, i remember that now. there was some context missing here though wasn't there? have to check it again.

Mindset
Galactus hunger is never really sated, though.

I mean, he is "sated" when he eats a planet, but then he can easily consume the energy from his ship which also makes him "sated".

The fact that Galactus's position in the Universe is to keep order prevents him from simply consuming all he wants.

Changing his hunger did not change his ability to absorb/consume. Even if you were never able to tell when you were full you could not simply eat without having to eventually stop.

753
Originally posted by zopzop
Just in case he's late answering, I believe Oblivion was buried beneath a 'love avalanche' by Iceman and beaten. I'm not kidding, it had stop moronic name like that, 'love avalanche' or 'life avalanche' something like that.

Eternity, is trickier he could be referring to Nightmare? He comatosed Eternity. This is a guy (Nightmare) that Dr. Strange beat by putting him in a full nelson till he submitted laughing out loud

EDIT :

He beat me to it :P

It was Iceman, I wonder who the meta was in reference to Eternity? thumb up it was a trans in reference to eternity, my original post said "everyone from trans to midmeta level charatcers have pawned eternity and oblivion" and yes, I was talking about nightmare.

@leonidas

I'll reply to your last post tomorrow and we'll begin setting things up. gotta go now.

Galan007
Originally posted by 753
he was converted by annihilus into a PC bomb that would sweep both the regular universe and the negative zone causing a total extinction event. in one swoop, or planet by planet? if it's the former, i find that very unlikely. per godhunter, the events of annihilation forced galactus to draw on the energy reserves of his very being just to survive -- in turn making him hungrier/weaker than he'd ever been (to the point that missing a meal nearly killed him)... and the outputs of power galactus displayed in annihilation (under annihilus' control, or otherwise) were decisively < universal.

so if sub-universal displays of power weakened him to such an extent, i don't see how it'd even be a possibility for him to snuff out 2 different universes at once.

Mindset
Originally posted by Galan007
in one swoop, or planet by planet? if it's the former, i find that very unlikely. per godhunter, the events of annihilation forced galactus to draw on the energy reserves of his very being just to survive -- in turn making him hungrier/weaker than he'd ever been (to the point that missing a meal nearly killed him)... and the outputs of power galactus displayed in annihilation (under annihilus' control, or otherwise) were decisively < universal.

so if sub-universal displays of power weakened him to such an extent, i don't see how it'd even be a possibility for him to snuff out 2 different universes at once. I don't really remember Annihilation, but what did Annihilus destroy by using Galan, because a weakened Galan was able to destroy a galaxy with one blast?

Galan007
^ annihilus just used him to destroy planets, iirc.

and the herald my rage blast "swept the galaxy clean of life" -- so take that how you will.

Mindset
I take it as him destroying a galaxy.

753
Originally posted by Galan007
in one swoop, or planet by planet? if it's the former, i find that very unlikely. per godhunter, the events of annihilation forced galactus to draw on the energy reserves of his very being just to survive -- in turn making him hungrier/weaker than he'd ever been (to the point that missing a meal nearly killed him)... and the outputs of power galactus displayed in annihilation (under annihilus' control, or otherwise) were decisively < universal.

so if sub-universal displays of power weakened him to such an extent, i don't see how it'd even be a possibility for him to snuff out 2 different universes at once. IIRC G was being kept malnourished and sedated by thanos/annihilus tech, but he was being used to devour planets, however, they kept him from accessing that energy and the PC he metabolized from it. it was stored in canisters in the ship I believe. the plan was to accumulate a big enough meal and then rig his body to detonate, which would cause the extinction event that would leave annihilus as the sole survivor in the cosmos. I'll look for scans later

753
Originally posted by leonidas
of course it is. the more he eats the more powerful. his hunger became INSATIABLE because of the tampering. without it, he would be SATED. without his hunger being changed by the celestial, you have no way of saying he could absorb the universe. he couldn't absorb ALL of it as we have seen there are parts he can't absorb already.
I don't see why not. the fact that he onlys eats enough to survive is a product of his mentality, not of an upper cap on how much he can eat in one go.

not really hard to do, most celestials dont have feats near G's. Id say toaa, arishem, exitar, dreaming one are stronger than him on average.

my mistake then


pr and inimalist sound good, I was think about mr master too. how many judges participate?

I was thinking regular space. standard versions and equipment. if the point is comparing their full power, perhaps CIS should be off. in any case, no ultimate nullifier allowed.

Galan007
Originally posted by 753
IIRC G was being kept malnourished and sedated by thanos/annihilus tech, but he was being used to devour planets, however, they kept him from accessing that energy and the PC he metabolized from it. it was stored in canisters in the ship I believe. the plan was to accumulate a big enough meal and then rig his body to detonate, which would cause the extinction event that would leave annihilus as the sole survivor in the cosmos. I'll look for scans later ...which isn't nearly the same as using his personal power to destroy both universes.

for instance, the US millitary started out with a single nuclear weapon -- which was enough to decimate a city, but that's about it. over the years, however, they've stockpiled enough nuclear weapons to destroy most everyone/thing on the planet. you see, they may have manufactured all the weapons, but that doesn't change the fact that the original weapon could only destroy a single city.

that said, if galactus was capable of storing -and not using- all the bio-energy he absorbs, then I have no doubt he could preform such a grand feat... but as it stands, he cannot. the energy he absorbs metabolizes FAR too quickly.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mindset
Galactus hunger is never really sated, though.

I mean, he is "sated" when he eats a planet, but then he can easily consume the energy from his ship which also makes him "sated".

The fact that Galactus's position in the Universe is to keep order prevents him from simply consuming all he wants.

Changing his hunger did not change his ability to absorb/consume. Even if you were never able to tell when you were full you could not simply eat without having to eventually stop.

changing his hunger DID alter his ability to consume though. it grew geometrically and everytime he consumed something he HAD to consume MORE. could he do this without having been manipulated by a celestial? i have no idea, but nothing i've seen would indicate he could do so. lost in all this is the fact that he also needed a celestial-built machine in order to absorb the energies he was absorbing in that arc. the machine created that black hole. it's not like he consciously performed this feat, or even did it on his own. it also took how many YEARS for him to perform it? that time bubble really complicated things. erm

beyond all that, this whole arc is non-canon as it happened in the future.

all that aside, the issue i have with it is simple--g has always been shown to need energy from a living source. in the celestial arc, he absorbed EVERYTHING--time, space, matter, living or non-living didn't seem to matter--and seemed to gain from it. he was a garbage dump for the black hole tech. the galactus we see would never do that--more to the point, based on what we've seen of him, he couldn't do that, at least not and GAIN power.

there are far too many problems with this arc (cool as it was) for me to say that what happened in it could be replicated by the standard version of galactus we have seen for so long.

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
I don't see why not. the fact that he onlys eats enough to survive is a product of his mentality, not of an upper cap on how much he can eat in one go.

i've actually never contended otherwise. you COULD be right. my point all along has been that we don't KNOW the upper limit, and that the celestial arc cannot be used as PROOF he could absorb the universe because of all the circumstances surrounding it.



speculation i'm afraid. we have no way of knowing because the others really have no feats.



thumb up



mm really isn't around very often. i was remiss in not mentioning pr. personally, i'd rather have people who don't always take part in cosmic discussions. maybe save on SOME preconceived notions? digi, pr, bada would be great imo. if they'd be willing. we could find 2 more pretty easily i think if you wanted 2 others.



problem with regular space for odin is that many feel he is weaker outside of asgard. for g it doesn't matter WHERE he is. cis off? hmm, i'd like other opinions on that issue. anyone else have thoughts? should it be cis off? tourneys always use characters IN character.....

btw--not sure you've seen this, but it is a point i have been consistent on throughout my time in the forum: i didn't throw out this bz in order to demonstrate that odin is more powerful than g. i've LONG said g>odin. i want to bz to show that the gap in their displayed power levels is far closer than most want to admit. basically it's a battle of respect for odin.

course, that doesn't mean i plan on losing..... shifty

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
that said, if galactus was capable of storing -and not using- all the bio-energy he absorbs, then I have no doubt he could preform such a grand feat... but as it stands, he cannot. the energy he absorbs metabolizes FAR too quickly.

i said the same thing in another thread. stop stealing my material. no expression

Utrigita
Originally posted by Galan007
...which isn't nearly the same as using his personal power to destroy both universes.

for instance, the US millitary started out with a single nuclear weapon -- which was enough to decimate a city, but that's about it. over the years, however, they've stockpiled enough nuclear weapons to destroy most everyone/thing on the planet. you see, they may have manufactured all the weapons, but that doesn't change the fact that the original weapon could only destroy a single city.

that said, if galactus was capable of storing -and not using- all the bio-energy he absorbs, then I have no doubt he could preform such a grand feat... but as it stands, he cannot. the energy he absorbs metabolizes FAR too quickly.

The energy of a single planet contains enough energy for Galactus (prior to the Annihilation Event) to keep him sated for a month, I won't exactly call that burning away energy far to quickly...

And how did a Ymir vs Mephisto Thread get derailed into a potential bz between Odin and Galactus and a general discussion about Galactus?

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
i said the same thing in another thread. stop stealing my material. no expression and i said it in a thread before that. stop stalking me! uhuh

Originally posted by Utrigita
The energy of a single planet contains enough energy for Galactus (prior to the Annihilation Event) to keep him sated for a month, I won't exactly call that burning away energy far to quickly... only IF he kept his power output to a bare minimum in between feedings. but that's moot anyway, as i was referring to post-annihilation galactus.

leonidas
Originally posted by Utrigita
And how did a Ymir vs Mephisto Thread get derailed into a potential bz between Odin and Galactus and a general discussion about Galactus?

huh. shrug

Utrigita
Originally posted by Galan007
and i said it in a thread before that. stop stalking me! uhuh

only IF he kept his power output to a bare minimum in between feedings. but that's moot anyway, as i was referring to post-annihilation galactus.

But it really plays little consequance either way since your still basing your analyse on a set of circumstances that haven't been shown as being continuous. The only reason we saw Galactus take two heralds was, was as it's the case in the silver surfer mini atm, to replenish the energy he lost being captured in Annihilation. Atm we can assume that Galactus, having only displayed one herald, is back at requiring nothing beyond the ordinary (under normal circumstances) in order to replenish his energy when it dwindles.

Utrigita
Originally posted by leonidas
huh. shrug

More a general question Leonidas, not aimed at you in any way smile

Galan007
Originally posted by Utrigita
But it really plays little consequance either way since your still basing your analyse on a set of circumstances that haven't been shown as being continuous. i think you're somewhat missing what i'm saying. i was only commenting on the sub-universal tasks preformed with galactus' energies during annihilation weakening him so drastically. if the aforementioned power expenditure (<<universal) can weaken him THAT much, there's really no feasible way he could destroy one -let alone two- universes under his own/standard level of power, in one swoop.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Atm we can assume that Galactus, having only displayed one herald, is back at requiring nothing beyond the ordinary (under normal circumstances) in order to replenish his energy when it dwindles. just recently surfer had to throw galactus into a star because a planet would not have sated him.

leonidas
Originally posted by Utrigita
More a general question Leonidas, not aimed at you in any way smile

laughing out loud

i know. but realized i actually don't KNOW how we got so far off topic. oh well, it's been a fun discussion.

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
thumb up it was a trans in reference to eternity, my original post said "everyone from trans to midmeta level charatcers have pawned eternity and oblivion" and yes, I was talking about nightmare.


regarding these points--that was oblivion's first ever appearance, i believe, was it not? imo, that is no where near indicative of what oblivion later became. i liken that to some mortal beating despair. it's not that bobby 'beat' the concept of oblivion, just that he HIMSELF did not give in to it. it was a personal, metaphorical victory. least that's my opinion of that encounter.

as for nightmare--that too was very old. when nightmare first arrived on the scene he was considered pretty uber. but he didn't really beat eternity either. he tried to take OVER part of him via sleeping agents through the universe. there was no actual 'battle' per se. a better example would have been dormammu trying to actually directly battle eternity and putting him in a coma for a time..... now THAT was lame.

753
Originally posted by Galan007
...which isn't nearly the same as using his personal power to destroy both universes.

for instance, the US millitary started out with a single nuclear weapon -- which was enough to decimate a city, but that's about it. over the years, however, they've stockpiled enough nuclear weapons to destroy most everyone/thing on the planet. you see, they may have manufactured all the weapons, but that doesn't change the fact that the original weapon could only destroy a single city.

that said, if galactus was capable of storing -and not using- all the bio-energy he absorbs, then I have no doubt he could preform such a grand feat... but as it stands, he cannot. the energy he absorbs metabolizes FAR too quickly.
I never claimed he could up and do it, I was talking aobout upper limit potential.

I dont think that comparison is very accurate, but I agree that G would need to store up to accompolish something like this. I believe he could achieve an equivalent result by loading taa II up and then detonating the energy stored in it.

753
Originally posted by Galan007
i think you're somewhat missing what i'm saying. i was only commenting on the sub-universal tasks preformed with galactus' energies during annihilation weakening him so drastically. if the aforementioned power expenditure (<<universal) can weaken him THAT much, there's really no feasible way he could destroy one -let alone two- universes under his own/standard level of power, in one swoop.

just recently surfer had to throw galactus into a star because a planet would not have sated him. I believe he was weakened because they kept him starved while the power he consumed was kept from him and weaponized, not because he spent it destroying those worlds (they were destroyed through the feeding). the blast that destroyed the wave was released when he was extremely weak from starvation while sedated.

753
Originally posted by leonidas
regarding these points--that was oblivion's first ever appearance, i believe, was it not? imo, that is no where near indicative of what oblivion later became. i liken that to some mortal beating despair. it's not that bobby 'beat' the concept of oblivion, just that he HIMSELF did not give in to it. it was a personal, metaphorical victory. least that's my opinion of that encounter.

as for nightmare--that too was very old. when nightmare first arrived on the scene he was considered pretty uber. but he didn't really beat eternity either. he tried to take OVER part of him via sleeping agents through the universe. there was no actual 'battle' per se. a better example would have been dormammu trying to actually directly battle eternity and putting him in a coma for a time..... now THAT was lame. I don't disagree, I'm merely pointing out that very high end characters powerwise, specially the forces of nature types, tend to have have very poor records on panel because writers can't properly handle them. oblivion being koed doesnt even make any sense.

leonidas
Originally posted by 753
I don't disagree, I'm merely pointing out that very high end characters powerwise, specially the forces of nature types, tend to have have very poor records on panel because writers can't properly handle them. oblivion being koed doesnt even make any sense.

it makes sense to me if it is viewed as a metaphor for bobby actually conquering his 'personal' oblivion. which is the way imo it was meant to be depicted.

btw for 2 guys who are gonna have a bz, we seem to agree a lot. laughing out loud

Utrigita
Originally posted by Galan007
i think you're somewhat missing what i'm saying. i was only commenting on the sub-universal tasks preformed with galactus' energies during annihilation weakening him so drastically. if the aforementioned power expenditure (<<universal) can weaken him THAT much, there's really no feasible way he could destroy one -let alone two- universes under his own/standard level of power, in one swoop.

Your initial focus was on Post Annihilation Galactus that, by requiring more energy currently then previously, would not be capable of performing a universal wide extinction event, because of the energy consumption used in Annihilation when Galactus did something (I'm rather vague here because the only thing I recall Galactus doing of significance was 1. fighting Tenebrous and Aegis 2. Swept a Galaxy clean after being weakened for a substantial amount of time). However Galactus wasn't following the annihilation Event drastically weakened as a result of power expenditure, he was weakened as a result of him not obtaining substance for a prolonged amount of time, a prerequisite that is no longer valid concerning post annihilation Galactus as that Galactus haven't been doing anything else then replenishing his lost energy as a result of Annihilation, in order to return to a pre annihilation hunger level. If your point is that Galactus have never shown the ability to wipe out the universe, then I agree, but I don't agree with your analyse that Galactus can't get to a level where he potentially could (given the information presented to us in Godhunter) because you places his energy consumption level at post annihilation after a event that left his own internal energy levels drastically weakened.

Originally posted by Galan007
just recently surfer had to throw galactus into a star because a planet would not have sated him.

After Galactus had used all his energy (when he has already hungry) to open a wormhole so the Chaos King could be removed from the 616 reality, unless ofcause you would call that normal circumstances, I don't see the relevans in the presented comparison as a mean to gauge recent post annihilation Galactus.

Galan007
Originally posted by 753
I believe he was weakened because they kept him starved while the power he consumed was kept from him and weaponized, not because he spent it destroying those worlds (they were destroyed through the feeding). the blast that destroyed the wave was released when he was extremely weak from starvation while sedated.
Originally posted by Utrigita
Your initial focus was on Post Annihilation Galactus that, by requiring more energy currently then previously, would not be capable of performing a universal wide extinction event, because of the energy consumption used in Annihilation when Galactus did something (I'm rather vague here because the only thing I recall Galactus doing of significance was 1. fighting Tenebrous and Aegis 2. Swept a Galaxy clean after being weakened for a substantial amount of time). However Galactus wasn't following the annihilation Event drastically weakened as a result of power expenditure, he was weakened as a result of him not obtaining substance for a prolonged amount of time, a prerequisite that is no longer valid concerning post annihilation Galactus as that Galactus haven't been doing anything else then replenishing his lost energy as a result of Annihilation, in order to return to a pre annihilation hunger level. If your point is that Galactus have never shown the ability to wipe out the universe, then I agree, but I don't agree with your analyse that Galactus can't get to a level where he potentially could (given the information presented to us in Godhunter) because you places his energy consumption level at post annihilation after a event that left his own internal energy levels drastically weakened. that's the thing, energy expenditure is energy expenditure. if galactus were to try and destroy multiple universes in one fell swoop, he would not have the privilege of feeding/replacing lost energies as he was doing so. he would have to rely exclusively on his personal energy stores -- and annihilation showed us that even after most of his energy stores are used up, and he is forced to draw on the reserves of his very being to survive, his cumulative power output is still FAR less than universal... let alone multi-universal.

i don't think i can be much clearer, but i feel like there is some sort of communication error here..?

Utrigita
Originally posted by Galan007
that's the thing, energy expenditure is energy expenditure. if galactus were to try and destroy multiple universes in one fell swoop, he would not have the privilege of feeding/replacing lost energies as he was doing so. he would have to rely exclusively on his personal energy stores -- and annihilation showed us that even after most of his energy stores are used up, and he is forced to draw on the reserves of his very being to survive, his cumulative power output is still FAR less than universal... let alone multi-universal.

i don't think i can be much clearer, but i feel like there is some sort of communication error here..?

There has, I'm not agreeing entirely with the above either, but yes there have been a miscommunication, atleast as I see it.

What would be usefull, would be a what if that dealt with how exactly Annihilus planned on archiving his goal.

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