Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

so it's come up a million times in a million threads. it's my contention that the 2 companies have chosen to depict speed differently. dc seems to put a much greater importance on speed in general. it is more widely used, it is used a great deal more and in fact, via the speed force, i would say that the speed limit in dc exceeds the limit in marvel.

now, because of this, there is quite a disparity in terms of speed feats and speed related characters in the 2 companies. i guess my question is this--because marvel doesn't show speed feats from characters the way dc does (in general terms, among the big characters) does that NECESSARILY mean marvel characters are slower, and unable to react to dc levels of speed? is there a point where inferrential evidence can suffice for marvel characters due to the dearth of feats? i'm not even convinced i'm phrasing this all correctly. guess what i'd like to do is start a discussion on speed in general, and more specifically how the companies depict and emphasize them, and the consequences--in the forum--for those differences.

if that makes sense. so, can marvel compete with the dc speedsters??

Theres a huge Flash (wally west) rant floating about the interweb somewhere that sums up the answer to this query pretty nicely. The basic flavour of it is 'Ignoring PIS and CIS, the high-end feats of Wally the West are so ludicrous that if we took them as solid the wally power set would never lose a fight to anyone ever, for ever.'

^

pretty much. Wally doesn't lose in forum fights... unless Zoom is involved.

Originally posted by marwash22
^

pretty much. Wally doesn't lose in forum fights... unless Zoom is involved. Or he's fighting energy composed beings.

I would say overall strength AND speed operate on a much more forgiving sliding scale in Marvel than it does in DC (which annoys me btw).

I don't believe in giving benefits of the doubt without there being means of drawing extrapolations or clear cut statements. I believe in consistency.

And DC's portrayal of the wonders of speed is just far more reliable and impressive.

If X person can rebuild a city with his bare hands in the order of seconds, and Y person can somewhat reliably bullet time, there is little reason to give the latter the benefit of the doubt of being able to hang with the former.

Strength is one thing, you can negotiate against strength with many means. You can't negotiate with speed unless you are fast enough in reflexes and/or can produce sufficiently large AOE attacks.

DC has more impressive and higher quantity of speed feats than Marvel.

Fans will extrapolate that from what they will.

I do believe the upper-echelon guys from DC (Superman, Flash) are faster than virtually all of what Marvel has to offer though.

Nova deserves more respect than he gets.

He's one of the few heralds in Marvel who are explicitly demonstrated to have luminal speed levels in things other than just straight line travel--fairly consistently too.

I think speed also needs to be divided into two categories: travel speed and combat speed

Marvel is no slouch in the travel speed department and may even trump DC in instances (Silver Surfer)

But combat speed is where DC emphasizes far more than Marvel.

Really, this is not a knock on Marvel, because I love Marvel, but DC characters are more powerful in almost every category, not just in speed, than their Marvel counterparts.

Strength, durability, speed, magic and energy manipulation are all depicted on higher levels in DC. Its just a fact. Marvel tends to go for "realism" a little bit more than DC. And that's probably why Marvel sells better than DC in general. (hell DC learned this lesson a while ago, when they depowered everyone for a while). But to answer the question, the really fast DC characters ARE much faster than their Marvel counterparts.

i always thought Marvel had better feats of strength and durability.

@PoS

In strength, not really, maybe a little bit on average.

Durability, overall yeah maybe.

Speed definitely. By leaps and bounds.

Magic, not really. A wash.

Energy Manipulation, not really. A wash.

Originally posted by marwash22
i always thought Marvel had better feats of strength and durability.

Superman has lifted infinite weight, his punches have ruptured time and space and reality, and that's just Superman. There's DC characters who've been depicted as towing around solar systems.

Originally posted by CosmicComet




Magic, not really. A wash.



PC Dr. Fate. That's really all I have to say. (but there's others as well)

I don't even think "travel" speed should come into it. "Travel speed" should just be called "space travel capability" because there's plenty of characters that can generate the energy needed to propel through space from point A to B but are not in anyway speedy or speedsters.

Speedsters will do things like create mini hurricanes or tornadoes in atmosphere with their speed. There's plenty of guys with "travel speed" that can't do that.

Just feel like there are alot more speedsters in DC. Also alot more heralds that use their speed to their advantage. Marvel doesn't have that many fast guys. I feel like they focus on healing factor stuff and physic abilities.

I do feel like magic use is pretty even in both companies.

Developing a fictional dimension (the speed force) from which those connected to it can a.) harness nigh-infinite amounts of speed, and b.) defy any/all 'rules' normally associated with moving at the speeds they do, is one of the best ideas DC ever had. The speed force gives them a quick and easy answer as to how/why their speedsters can casually shatter the laws of physics on any given day.

Marvel tends to abide by the rules a lot more where speed is concerned, imo. That's likely one of the main reasons why their speedsters are, in general, thought of as inferior to DC's.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't even think "travel" speed should come into it. "Travel speed" should just be called "space travel capability" because there's plenty of characters that can generate the energy needed to propel through space from point A to B but are not in anyway speedy or speedsters. Yeah Spcetravel is just a plot thing, even stupid earth spaceships can travel almost instantly from point A to point B no matter where point B is in the universe.

Writers have switched company so many times throughout the decades that it makes it rather ridiculous to believe that when they are at Marvel "writers portray speed differently, just because". No, fact of the matter is that Marvel characters simply aren't that fast, with a few exceptions - like Runner, Makkari, Quicksilver, Northstar - who are closer to the top DC levels of superspeed. It's just that the characters that they want to have it the most - Thor, Thanos, Surfer - don't, and it hurts.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Superman has lifted infinite weight, his punches have ruptured time and space and reality, and that's just Superman. There's DC characters who've been depicted as towing around solar systems. yeah... well... we all know the book and Spectre feats are bullshit. Also, PC Superman is bullshit. hmph

Take current characters from both universes and Marvel just seems to be physically stronger (lifting feats)... I'm not claiming this to be fact tho.

Wrong.

Surfer has super speed without his board, but he's not a speedster. His board is more maneuverable than Lobo's bike, that's it.

Originally posted by marwash22
yeah... well... we all know the book and Spectre feats are bullshit. Also, PC Superman is bullshit. hmph

Take current characters from both universes and Marvel just seems to be physically stronger (lifting feats)... I'm not claiming this to be fact tho.

I've always considered Thor to be the "superman" of Marvel. Right now, the way he's been written lately, I'd say he'd be taken down by a planet-buster (although that wasn't always the case). Superman took a blast equal to 50 supernovas (1 supernova could destroy a solar system).

In terms of strength, there's still PC kryptonians out there in DC, but sticking with Superman, he's held a black hole, lifted infinite weight, punches that have shattered time and space, etc. While the Hulk AT HIS MADDEST, shook the eastern seaboard of one continent. IMO, its not even close between the two companies.

Marvel heros imo is a notch above in the strength and durablity dept. Ill give DC a small nod in speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Marvel heros imo is a notch above in the strength and durablity dept. Ill give DC a small nod in speed.

And we all know you're not biased.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I've always considered Thor to be the "superman" of Marvel. Right now, the way he's been written lately, I'd say he'd be taken down by a planet-buster (although that wasn't always the case). Superman took a blast equal to 50 supernovas (1 supernova could destroy a solar system).

In terms of strength, there's still PC kryptonians out there in DC, but sticking with Superman, he's held a black hole, lifted infinite weight, punches that have shattered time and space, etc. While the Hulk AT HIS MADDEST, shook the eastern seaboard of one continent. IMO, its not even close between the two companies.

Superman didn't take 50 supernovas... he was hit by the shockwaves of the blast. Get your facts straight.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And we all know you're not biased.

Not biased buddy.

You can't name a single person in DC minus Prime that has destroyed a planet PHYSICALLY unless you go back to PC days.

Right off the top of my head, in Marvel... Bill, Champion, Gladiator, etc...

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And we all know you're not biased.

look at the hypocrite over here ahah...u try and cover up by saying u love marvel...laughable...dont think ive seen u side towards marvel ever

Originally posted by carver9
Superman didn't take 50 supernovas... he was hit by the shockwaves of the blast. Get your facts straight.

Actually, he was even weakened, and he was hit by it.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Actually, he was even weakened, and he was hit by it.

Actually he was sent flying from the "shockwaves" from the blast. We must be talking about 2 different feats.

Originally posted by carver9
Not biased buddy.

You can't name a single person in DC minus Prime that has destroyed a planet PHYSICALLY minus Prime unless you go back to PC days.

Right off the top of my head, in Marvel... Bill, Champion, Gladiator, etc...

I've already shown you examples of Superman doing it, but its in one ear and out the other with you.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I've already shown you examples of Superman doing it, but its in one ear and out the other with you.

You didn't show me anything. You showed me Zod and Supes fighting and about 10 people came in and told you that you were wrong. All of the feats you put up, you don't even know the context of them. Stop going to the respect thread and actually read the comics.

Show ALL of us someone from DC destroying a planet.

Originally posted by carver9
You didn't show me anything. You showed me Zod and Supes fighting and about 10 people came in and told you that you were wrong. All of the feats you put up, you don't even know the context of them. Stop going to the respect thread and actually read the comics.

Show ALL of us someone from DC destroying a planet.

Originally posted by carver9
You didn't show me anything. You showed me Zod and Supes fighting and about 10 people came in and told you that you were wrong. All of the feats you put up, you don't even know the context of them. Stop going to the respect thread and actually read the comics.

Show ALL of us someone from DC destroying a planet. owned.

Originally posted by carver9
Stop going to the respect thread and actually read the comics.



You're right, maybe then I'll realize every single person from Marvel >>>>>> every single person from DC like you. And that the Hulk iz da strongest 1 der iz.

Originally posted by carver9
You didn't show me anything. You showed me Zod and Supes fighting and about 10 people came in and told you that you were wrong. All of the feats you put up, you don't even know the context of them. Stop going to the respect thread and actually read the comics.

Show ALL of us someone from DC destroying a planet.

Why is destroying a planet that important? Most DC heroes are not so callous as to destroy a planet, there's people who actually take care of balance and order of the systems and galaxies.

They have other strength related feats, like using brute strength to move the mill wheels of Mageddon, shifting Earth out of orbit etc.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
You're right, maybe then I'll realize every single person from Marvel >>>>>> every single person from DC like you. And that the Hulk iz da strongest 1 der iz.

When did I say everyone from DC is weaker than everyone from Marvel characters? I gave my reason on why the Marvel side is stronger and more durable but that has nothing to do with who would win or not.

Marvel tends to be more specific in limitations and strength scale. DC goes for hyperbole which is why IMO their high ends in specific areas where they are said to be "the best" in their field tends to outclass Marvel in physical stats. Energy projection I'd lean towards marvel however. For example DC will have a brick like superman for example physically overcome/influence an abstract concept with raw strength or some physical means. Marvel will tend to have some mystic/psionic reason that is much more convincing even with suspension of disbelief in play.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who wants Thanos to have superspeed ? Honestly, keep your butthurt to one thread you seem to lash out in all directions lately. Would you agree that Thanos is a statue to Superman, and the latter would be able to spend relative weeks before Thanos even registers he's in a fight?

Originally posted by Allankles
Why is destroying a planet that important? Most DC heroes are not so callous as to destroy a planet, there's people who actually take care of balance and order of the systems and galaxies.

They have other strength related feats, like using brute strength to move the mill wheels of Mageddon, shifting Earth out of orbit etc.

Huh?

I'm not even going to respond to this because it is so much wrong.

Dc Definitely is faster...i mean they have an entire "force" dedicated to it lol

Originally posted by Allankles
Why is destroying a planet that important? Most DC heroes are not so callous as to destroy a planet, there's people who actually take care of balance and order of the systems and galaxies.

They have other strength related feats, like using brute strength to move the mill wheels of Mageddon, shifting Earth out of orbit etc.

Don't bother. Its like trying to convince Pat Robertson to join Al Qaeda. Even though Superman HAS destroyed a planet, and has feats well BEYOND that. And he clings to one feat of Gladiator destroying a planet of unknown size with several punches to convince himself that Gladiator "pwns Superman."

But because I don't believe that, I don't read comics. Something he's told me about 100 times now. It makes a lot of sense for someone who doesn't read comics to spend their time here also. Of course reading comics only helps if you own comics besides WWH....

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Dc Definitely is faster...i mean they have an entire "force" dedicated to it lol yeah, i don't even think it's in question at this point. the convo has shifted to the other stats.

Originally posted by carver9
When did I say everyone from DC is weaker than everyone from Marvel characters? I gave my reason on why the Marvel side is stronger and more durable but that has nothing to do with who would win or not. http://i56.tinypic.com/35ndncz.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Huh?

I'm not even going to respond to this because it is so much wrong.

You keep insisting on planet busting as if that's something standard for heroes. The fact is no DC hero is going to bust a planet except if its by accident.

They generally tend to protect planets, as Superman did against Starro and other threats, by towing Earth.

He's also pulled the mill wheels of Mageddon, which iirc was the size of a solar system.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, as Thanos' reflexes have been shown to be up to the task with characters with blazing speed when he so chooses to negate said speed. So Thanos negates high-end superspeed, without having superspeed, by using superspeed? Genius, quan.

@ CBR. That's the worst comic battles forum on the net, and every other site agrees.Originally posted by Mindset
Nah. Yah.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Don't bother. Its like trying to convince Pat Robertson to join Al Qaeda. Even though Superman HAS destroyed a planet, and has feats well BEYOND that. And he clings to one feat of Gladiator destroying a planet of unknown size with several punches to convince himself that Gladiator "pwns Superman."

But because I don't believe that, I don't read comics. Something he's told me about 100 times now. It makes a lot of sense for someone who doesn't read comics to spend their time here also. Of course reading comics only helps if you own comics besides WWH....

Show me these planet destroying feats please. I might missed reading a book, so I don't want to not give a guy credit... show me these planet destroying feats.

And by the way, you "don't" read comics and I have caught and proven this at least 8 or 9 times.

Originally posted by Galan007
Developing a fictional dimension (the speed force) from which those connected to it can a.) harness nigh-infinite amounts of speed, and b.) defy any/all 'rules' normally associated with moving at the speeds they do, is one of the best ideas DC ever had. The speed force gives them a quick and easy answer as to how/why their speedsters can casually shatter the laws of physics on any given day.

Marvel tends to abide by the rules a lot more where speed is concerned, imo. That's likely one of the main reasons why their speedsters are, in general, thought of as inferior to DC's.



In general, DC heralds are just faster in most cases in terms of reflexes than Marvel ones.

That's not to say Marvel heralds aren't fast, some are pretty decent when it comes to down to it, DC's higher tier characters just tend to be faster and in larger numbers.

Also, guys, leave strength and durability out of this. there's a couple of people in this thread I was about to reply to (and possibly warn), but i'll just leave it at telling you all not to go off topic.

Originally posted by Allankles
You keep insisting on planet busting as if that's something standard for heroes. The fact is no DC hero is going to bust a planet except if its by accident.

They generally tend to protect planets, as Superman did against Starro and other threats, by towing Earth.

He's also pulled the mill wheels of Mageddon, which iirc was the size of a solar system.

Why do you keep bringing up Superman and why are you bringing up the wheel?

He was an engine to it, nothing more, nothing less. Its a unquantified feat... we don't know how much he was pulling.

okay, so the discussion began because pr and i were discussing superman. it seems whenever he comes up against a marvel guy, the first thing brought up is his speed. because of the dearth of marvel speed-related feats, it is difficult to defend against the very over-used speed blitz. if, for example, no one attacks thor at the speeds superman is capable of, does that necessarily prove thor can't defend against said speed? and no--do NOT turn this into thor-superman, that was just one example.

fact of the matter is--MOST marvel characters will HAVE no feats or evidence to support being able to contend with dc's differences in speed. does it necessarily follow then that the dc side will win because of this lack of evidence? generally it seems to come down to a comparison and systematic disection of marvel's ability to deal with speed. i'm the first to admit that in general those feats do not exist so we are forced to infer, use common sense or simply base an argument on perceived understanding of a character. FEATS THAT ARE ASKED FOR DO NOT EXIST. usually. and CERTAINLY not in the amounts dc guys ask for.

so, since marvel handles speed different it therefore follows that basing debates strictly on on-panel proof is inherently flawed in some instances--or at the least inherently unbalanced. how do you propose the marvel side deal with this disparity?

Originally posted by leonidas
okay, so the discussion began because pr and i were discussing superman. it seems whenever he comes up against a marvel guy, the first thing brought up is his speed. because of the dearth of marvel speed-related feats, it is difficult to defend against the very over-used speed blitz. if, for example, no one attacks thor at the speeds superman is capable of, does that necessarily prove thor can't defend against said speed? and no--do NOT turn this into thor-superman, that was just one example.

fact of the matter is--MOST marvel characters will HAVE no feats or evidence to support being able to contend with dc's differences in speed. does it necessarily follow then that the dc side will win because of this lack of evidence? generally it seems to come down to a comparison and systematic disection of marvel's ability to deal with speed. i'm the first to admit that in general those feats do not exist so we are forced to infer, use common sense or simply base an argument on perceived understanding of a character. FEATS THAT ARE ASKED FOR DO NOT EXIST. usually. and CERTAINLY not in the amounts dc guys ask for.

so, since marvel handles speed different it therefore follows that basing debates strictly on on-panel proof is inherently flawed in some instances--or at the least inherently unbalanced. how do you propose the marvel side deal with this disparity?

Do you not simply take it that if a character hasn't shown a reasonable amount of fast, reflexive actions, that they simply can't?

If not, why not?

Originally posted by carver9
Why do you keep bringing up Superman and why are you bringing up the wheel?

He was an engine to it, nothing more, nothing less. Its a unquantified feat... we don't know how much he was pulling.

He was powering the engines btw. And the engines were powering the Mageddon weapon which was the size of a solar system. It was a shocking feat to his peers.

I used him because he was used as an example in this thread earlier. I'm not even arguing one way or the other with regards to strength and durability, I just disagreed with your generalizations and your insistence on planet busting, which would be considered a callous act by many DC heroes.

Originally posted by -Pr-


In general, DC heralds are just faster in most cases in terms of reflexes than Marvel ones.

but THAT is the point--i'm not sure it's fair to say that when marvel itself just doesn't use speed the way dc does. i can't see thor going to dc and suddenly getting smacked around by every speedster. or ss. or quasar. or thanos. etc..... i could be wrong, but if i am, it seems to say that speed would trump all as many have said, and make the point of debating the characters pointless in some regards.

Originally posted by leonidas
how do you propose the marvel side deal with this disparity?

all you have to do is prove that the slower character has the reflexes to tag the faster character... or, show that the slower character has an ability that counters/cancels out the faster character's speed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Do you not simply take it that if a character hasn't shown a reasonable amount of fast, reflexive actions, that they simply can't?

If not, why not? Because the character can't lose, dammit!

If he doesn't have feats, we use " common sense or simply base an argument on perceived understanding of a character. " because we are right, and it's the DC side who's evil for asking things we can't provide!

The superspeed is there, Raoul, you just have to feel it!

Originally posted by -Pr-
Do you not simply take it that if a character hasn't shown a reasonable amount of fast, reflexive actions, that they simply can't?

If not, why not?

that is certainly the logical end. what i'm saying is, if marvel, as a whole, doesn't portray characters at such speeds, and therefore equal feats do not exist, do we simply default to the assumption that said marvel characters are NECESSARILY slower?

Originally posted by marwash22
all you have to do is prove that the slower character has the reflexes to tag the faster character... or, show that the slower character has an ability that counters/cancels out the faster character's speed. Exactly.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was powering the engines btw. And the engines were powering the Mageddon weapon which was the size of a solar system. It was a shocking feat to his peers.

I used him because he was used as an example in this thread earlier. I'm not even arguing one way or the other with regards to strength and durability, I just disagreed with your generalizations and your insistence on planet busting, which would be considered a callous act by many DC heroes.


We will have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by leonidas
but THAT is the point--i'm not sure it's fair to say that when marvel itself just doesn't use speed the way dc does. i can't see thor going to dc and suddenly getting smacked around by every speedster. or ss. or quasar. or thanos. etc..... i could be wrong, but if i am, it seems to say that speed would trump all as many have said, and make the point of debating the characters pointless in some regards.

So you're talking about PIS and CIS then?

"We need to make the story good, so we'll just forget about some aspects of the characters?"

Originally posted by leonidas
that is certainly the logical end. what i'm saying is, if marvel, as a whole, doesn't portray characters at such speeds, and therefore equal feats do not exist, do we simply default to the assumption that said marvel characters are NECESSARILY slower? yes.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you're talking about PIS and CIS then?

"We need to make the story good, so we'll just forget about some aspects of the characters?" Without this DC wouldn't work, not a bit.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, because his reflexes are up to it he doesn't have to have super speed itself to raise his hand. You think having the reflexes to counter FTL character isn't a matter of the character posessing superspeed?

Originally posted by leonidas
so it's come up a million times in a million threads. it's my contention that the 2 companies have chosen to depict speed differently. dc seems to put a much greater importance on speed in general. it is more widely used, it is used a great deal more and in fact, via the speed force, i would say that the speed limit in dc exceeds the limit in marvel.

now, because of this, there is quite a disparity in terms of speed feats and speed related characters in the 2 companies. i guess my question is this--because marvel doesn't show speed feats from characters the way dc does (in general terms, among the big characters) does that NECESSARILY mean marvel characters are slower, and unable to react to dc levels of speed? is there a point where inferrential evidence can suffice for marvel characters due to the dearth of feats? i'm not even convinced i'm phrasing this all correctly. guess what i'd like to do is start a discussion on speed in general, and more specifically how the companies depict and emphasize them, and the consequences--in the forum--for those differences.

if that makes sense. so, can marvel compete with the dc speedsters??
This is very interesting. If it is different does that also mean the level of control over it is different as well? That may explain why the flashes have been tagged by everyone in there mother. That because there speed operates on completely DC made "speed force". That there reaction time is completly reliant on the amount of speed force they are utilizing at any given time . Which could explain the great desperatee between showings.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Without this DC wouldn't work, not a bit.

facepalm

Originally posted by marwash22
to a degree. That pretty much what bullet dodging is. Batman most certainly isn't faster than a bullet, but his reflexes allow him to react in time to dodge it. You don't need superspeed, just adequate reflexes. Are you suggesting that speed and reflexes are two different things? Also, bullet dodging involves actual physical/muscle movement. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this example?

Originally posted by leonidas
that is certainly the logical end. what i'm saying is, if marvel, as a whole, doesn't portray characters at such speeds, and therefore equal feats do not exist, do we simply default to the assumption that said marvel characters are NECESSARILY slower? If the Marvel character(s) in question have never given us a reason (ie. feats) to assume they are on par with the DC speedsters, then there is no reason to assume they are (sans PIS/CIS, of course.)

For instance, I have never seen Thor perceive events, and react to them, on an attosecond by attosecond basis -- thus I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the Flash family is -far- faster in that regard. However, that is not to say Thor would be incapable of beating said speedster through other means. The speedsters are uber, but they aren't unbeatable.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Without this DC wouldn't work, not a bit.

But it only applies to characters like the Flashes and Superman. With Superman, at least it's more interesting because he's also built to brawl. So he'll brawl 80% of the time and when he faces an opponent that's above brawling then he turns on the speed. It's like an extra gear, a just-in-case countermeasure. So it's more like CIS with him.

With the Flashes it's PIS, because speed is all they've got.

Originally posted by quanchi112
To me superspeed is like running up a mountain in like less than heartbeat. Thanos can't do that. But if someone with superspeed is coming at him he has the reflexes to counter. So reflexes have nothing to do with physical speed?

Originally posted by -Pr-
facepalm Yeah sure thing, Batman fights along Flash in the JLA and beats beings that took down the rest of the JLA. I'm talking of the white martian storyline. Seriously if a Flash character would fight like he would here in the theoretical forum fights, events would be totally ****ed up. True Story.

And for other examples before the Batman wanking starts, Green Arrow, Black Canary and lots of others were on the same team they're all COMPLETELY useless if Flash (without CIS/PIS) would be on the same team.

To believe that a major event with a lot of characters from different tiers works without heavy PIS/CIS is dumb to say it nicely.

Now go and facepalm yourself.

And yes DC Characters vastly > Marvel characters in speed.
That's why I think the effect on DC is much heavier

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you're talking about PIS and CIS then?

"We need to make the story good, so we'll just forget about some aspects of the characters?"

nah. i had a huge debate with odg over superman/loki where i took supes. the main reason was because of his speed. not sure you get where i'm coming from. it's like comparing apples and oranges i guess, and trying to force the apple into an orange. there is a disparity--not because of the characters, but because of the way the companies portray them and always have.

perhaps you and a couple others are right. maybe we just concluse marvel cannot compete with dc speed and that's the end. it just leads to.... unproductive debates at times.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Yeah sure thing, Batman fights along Flash in the JLA and beats beings that took down the rest of the JLA. I'm talking of the white martian storyline. Seriously if a Flash character would fight like he would here in the theoretical forum fights, events would be totally ****ed up. True Story.

And for other examples before the Batman wanking starts, Green Arrow, Black Canary and lots of others were on the same team they're all COMPLETELY useless if Flash (without CIS/PIS) would be on the same team.

To believe that a major event with a lot of characters from different tiers works without heavy PIS/CIS is dumb to say it nicely.

Now go and facepalm yourself.

And yes DC Characters vastly > Marvel characters in speed.

Nice of you to show your bias so openly.

Originally posted by leonidas
nah. i had a huge debate with odg over superman/loki where i took supes. the main reason was because of his speed. not sure you get where i'm coming from. it's like comparing apples and oranges i guess, and trying to force the apple into an orange. there is a disparity--not because of the characters, but because of the way the companies portray them and always have.

perhaps you and a couple others are right. maybe we just concluse marvel cannot compete with dc speed and that's the end. it just leads to.... unproductive debates at times.

what do you suggest, then?

Originally posted by marwash22
to a degree, yes!

Obviously, if you're able to hit someone with FTL capabilities, you yourself have a degree of superspeed. But using my bullet dodging example... superspeed isn't required. Basically, you don't need to have equal speed to hit someone, that's where reflexes come into play.

Cass Cain's reflexes are better than Wally's if you take away his speed. To what degree? What does having "reflexes to deal with FTL characters" imply to you? Being able to think, react and implement an action to counter said character, no? Then say, how is this any different than saying that character has superspeed?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Nice of you to show your bias so openly. Originally posted by Parmaniac
And yes DC Characters vastly > Marvel characters in speed.
That's why I think the effect on DC is much heavier
Sure

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, but not entirely. We've seen Thanos react before to someone who vastly outclasses him in speed yet Thanos can't replicate that said character's speed. ? So if say Superman is trying to blitz him at FTL speeds, but Thanos percieves, reacts and physically acts to counter Superman, it doesn't show that Thanos has superspeed, but just amazing reflexes (that are totally independent of speed!)?

How do you define superspeed if not the ability to percieve, react and move at superhuman speeds? "To me superspeed is like running up a mountain in like less than heartbeat."?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Sure

shrug

you're the one who said it was DC's problem, when it's been a factor in comics for years in most companies.

Originally posted by Galan007
However, that is not to say Thor would be incapable of beating said speedster through other means. The speedsters are uber, but they aren't unbeatable.

that's the thing--in threads it doesn't get past that. thor is ko'd in the first nano-second. as is any marvel guy. supes can do the same. to any marvel guys. even glads, mak, hell even runner's feats are nothing to flash. and those are the VERY best speedsters. therefore, it follows that speedsters will win. based on feats, they win EVERY time. if that's the case, so be it. hell, i love superman AND flash. it just seems awfully simplistic and seems to go against the nature of the characters, at times.

Originally posted by marwash22
to a degree, yes!

Obviously, if you're able to hit someone with FTL capabilities, you yourself have a degree of superspeed. But using my bullet dodging example... superspeed isn't required. Basically, you don't need to have equal speed to hit someone, that's where reflexes come into play.

Cass Cain's reflexes are better than Wally's if you take away his speed. You agree that Cass doesn't have superspeed, don't you?

Having FTL capabilities doesn't mean you're using super speed in combat. For example, if Thanos whoops Surfer h2h it doesn't necessarily demonstrate (by that example alone) that Thanos has super speed, unless Surfer was shown using some speed himself in said encounter.

I get what you're saying about reflexes but a faster guy will have better reflexes than the slower guy regardless. Take for example two street levelers like Ozymidias and Bruce Wayne. Not counting skill, the two guys are on the same level physically but Ozy has much more acute reflexes, he's faster than Bruce.

You can't be slower and then have better reflexes, what you're talking about is skill based, and has something to do with timing.

For instance skill might mean Thanos has better defensive instincts than Surfer, but if Surfer is truly the quicker guy his reflexes are better. The difference is that guys like Supes and Flash have the instincts to use their superior reflexes effectively.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
This is very interesting. If it is different does that also mean the level of control over it is different as well? That may explain why the flashes have been tagged by everyone in there mother. That because there speed operates on completely DC made "speed force". That there reaction time is completly reliant on the amount of speed force they are utilizing at any given time . Which could explain the great desperatee between showings.
so umm is this just completely off?

Originally posted by -Pr-
shrug

you're the one who said it was DC's problem, when it's been a factor in comics for years in most companies. My point is like most people here say in Marvel it SEEMS they try to make it more realistic and don't use speed so much, so by speed feats DC >>>>>> Marvel (andprobably all other publishers) and therefore to compensate this probem you get heavier PIS/CIS.

Yes I like Marvel more but DC has better feats imo (not only speed whole DC earth seems on an average be higher than Marvel, so many Lanterns, Kryptonians etc.) that's why I think DC without PIS/CIS would be more ****ed because of bigger gaps (between slow and fast characters) than Marvel would be.

That's why we're not CBR. Characters don't knock eachother out in nanoseconds. And CIS still applies.

If Marvel fans would finally accept that the likes of Flash/Superman do indeed have the speed to take care of fights against the likes of Thor/Surfer and Thanos before they can react, the debates would be a lot more interesting.

Originally posted by -Pr-


what do you suggest, then?

frankly, i'm not sure. how does one compare an apple and an orange? kinda why i brought it up, see if anyone had any ideas or opinions. i could simply be way off, and maybe there is NO solution. just thought we kicked off a decent discussion that was worth bringing to the attention of others.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's the thing--in threads it doesn't get past that. thor is ko'd in the first nano-second. as is any marvel guy. supes can do the same. to any marvel guys. even glads, mak, hell even runner's feats are nothing to flash. and those are the VERY best speedsters. therefore, it follows that speedsters will win. based on feats, they win EVERY time. if that's the case, so be it. hell, i love superman AND flash. it just seems awfully simplistic and seems to go against the nature of the characters, at times. You have to take the blitzee's damage soak into consideration. For instance, I don't see someone with Superman-level durability being nigh-instantly KO'd by a Flash-blitz. If a character is capable of weathering the initial onslaught, and countering with something of their own, then said character -always- has a shot of beating the speedsters.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos reacting isn't judo chopping his adam's apple or nerve punching him it's him raising his hands to stop said blitz. So physically moving his body, after percieving and reacting to a FTL opponent. Would you say that's not superspeed? Does Thanos need to run some "heartbeat laps" around the world for you to think he has superspeed?

Originally posted by leonidas
frankly, i'm not sure. how does one compare an apple and an orange? kinda why i brought it up, see if anyone had any ideas or opinions. i could simply be way off, and maybe there is NO solution. just thought we kicked off a decent discussion that was worth bringing to the attention of others.

How about this:

Speedsters like Superman, Flash, and Wonder Woman DO have superior combat speed to the likes of Thanos, Surfer, and Thor and it WOULD be a big factor in a fight, but not necessarily an insurmountable advantage? shrug

Originally posted by marwash22
then how do you explain anyone ever hitting Wally? PIS?

that's really the only answer anyone has and it really doesn't sit well with me, and never has. but, what else is there?

To be clear, I'm not saying the slower character has "better reflexes", I'm saying the slower character's reflexes is what allows him/her to contend with the faster character. make sense?Originally posted by leonidas
that's really the only answer anyone has and it really doesn't sit well with me, and never has. but, what else is there? reflexes.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
How about this:

Speedsters like Superman, Flash, and Wonder Woman DO have superior combat speed to the likes of Thanos, Surfer, and Thor and it WOULD be a big factor in a fight, but not necessarily an insurmountable advantage? shrug Why wouldn't it be? Because they're not close in speed.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I agree with Thor and Thanos, but Surfer? He has a lot of speed feats. I say his speed is near if not on the level of superman. I think most of these feats are "on board" feats and not "face to face H2H" feats, that's why he doesn't gives Surfer the super speed.

I once asked for a fighting super speed feat and someone posted a scan of Surfer on his board blasting stuff. So till today I personally haven't seen a single H2H Surfer super speed feat, maybe it's just me.

why does surfer keep being brought up as example of lacking speed feats. He has many speed feats and is a bad example. In fact he one of the few marvel characters who actually has speed showings in the ball park of DC upper level guys.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I think most of these feats are "on board" feats and not "face to face H2H" feats, that's why he doesn't gives Surfer the super speed.

I once asked for a fighting super speed feat and someone posted a scan of Surfer on his board blasting stuff. So till today I personally haven't seen a single H2H Surfer super speed feat, maybe it's just me.
oh ok that makes more sense. However is not the board an extension of himself?




Oh that is true, I never really seen him use it h2h. But he more a range fighter anyways.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
oh ok that makes more sense. However is not the board an extension of himself?




Oh that is true, I never really seen him use it h2h. But he more a range fighter anyways. He used speed on his board to take on nova. With the board I feel he's one of the fastest characters in comics.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Jesus Christ Philo is this really that hard... Let's take the 100 yard dash... are you saying that everyone reacts to the gun at the exact same time with the exact same reaction speed? Or do they react differently? Just because someone reacts the fastest and gets off the line fastest doesn't mean he will win the race, In fact, it's usually the opposite. The person winning the race has the higher end speed (top speed) but not the fastest reaction time. The quick reaction time allows certain people to make the final and compete but they lack they higher end speed to win. It's really that simple. Now in a comic book format.. those reflexes that allowed the sprinter to compete now allows them to tag an opponent and possibly gain an advatage doing so. I'm not sure how you're saying they are exactly the same thing when clearly, even in real life, they are not.

Originally posted by marwash22
To be clear, I'm not saying the slower character has "better reflexes", I'm saying the slower character's reflexes is what allows him/her to contend with the faster character. make sense? Reflexes have to come with being able to percieve you're being attacked in the first place; reflexes have to come with being able to process that attack; and then physically moving your body to counter it; when we're talking about insane speeds like lightspeed, or faster than that (many people still don't seem to understand just how ridiculous being able to percieve things at lightspeed really is), you can't base it all on reflexes, and say that the character isn't close to the opponent in speed.

Originally posted by marwash22
then how do you explain anyone ever hitting Wally? PIS?

Not necessarily depends on whether Wally expected it or saw it coming. He can be surprised and blind sided. If he's ready and facing his opponent h2h, his reflexes are way too sharp to get hit, even if he isn't zig zagging all over the place.

His perceptions are also on another level, giving him an added advantage, only Supes (outside the Flash family) has better perception in terms if motion tracking among the Earth heroes.

It is interesting becuase certain character clearly seem to be able to travel much faster then they can react or fight. There seems to be clear difference between combat speed and movement speed with character such as for example Thor.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
It is interesting becuase certain character clearly seem to be able to travel much faster then they can react or fight. There seems to be clear difference between combat speed and movement speed with character such as for example Thor. Every character's travel speed is faster than fight speed imo.

Originally posted by Allankles
Not necessarily depends on whether Wally expected it or saw it coming. He can be surprised and blind sided. If he's ready and facing his opponent h2h, his reflexes are way too sharp to get hit, even if he isn't zig zagging all over the place.



Or could it be completely dependent upon how much of the speed force they are currently accessing. If there level of speed in DC they can reach is much higher, could not also there control be more complete?

Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and Thanos can all react at the speeds that Superman, Flash, ect can react. The problem comes in that they can't ACT at those same speeds. They will always be on the defensive against any DC speedster.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Every character's travel speed is faster than fight speed imo.
This is not true at all.



Nor to the level I am talking about.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
All three of those characters do possess durability to weather a blitz for some amount of time (debateable how long) as well as other powers that can level the playing field and unless we all drink the Combo-to-KO koolaid we must accept that if they can withstand a blitz long enough to use said powers they have the chance to win.

I'd agree wholeheartedly on the speed kills 10/10 argument but for the nature of the beast that is comics. We either have to call any instance of a slower character tagging a faster character PIS or accept that speed is not an end all be all advantage. I wouldn't say they posses the capability to weather a blitz for some amount of time. If Superman would blitz any of them (save perhaps Thanos), I'd give them 8 punches at best before they're going down. Would you say they're fast enough to counter before the 8 punches? If you do, then you go back to "they're close enough in speed" which is just not true.

Having microsecond reaction time alone implies you'll be able to spend relative weeks in a second. Wrap your head around a fight where one of the guys is able to do that. Now imagine that Superman has sported 1000 times that perception time. Now imagine again, that Barry is to a nanosecond, as the nanosecond is to a second.

If people would actually think about the implications that superspeed on this level has, they'd understand that there's just simply no way the likes of Superman/Flash would lose if they didn't want to.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
This is not true at all.



Nor to the level I am talking about. Name an example then.


Surfer and superman can travel much faster than they can fight at.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's the thing--in threads it doesn't get past that. thor is ko'd in the first nano-second. as is any marvel guy. supes can do the same. to any marvel guys. even glads, mak, hell even runner's feats are nothing to flash. and those are the VERY best speedsters. therefore, it follows that speedsters will win. based on feats, they win EVERY time. if that's the case, so be it. hell, i love superman AND flash. it just seems awfully simplistic and seems to go against the nature of the characters, at times.

and that's fine. no fight should be settled purely on speed. the only problem, as i see it, is when people deny that a character had said speed, and thereby handicaps them to allow "their" character to win.

or by the same token, try to make the character they're up for seem like they're faster than they are.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was powering the engines btw. And the engines were powering the Mageddon weapon which was the size of a solar system. It was a shocking feat to his peers.

I used him because he was used as an example in this thread earlier. I'm not even arguing one way or the other with regards to strength and durability, I just disagreed with your generalizations and your insistence on planet busting, which would be considered a callous act by many DC heroes.

Bigger. Mageddon was overwhelming the horizon at a distance of light years.

Omega: I refer you to any thread Zoom is in. Speed does kill. If you can hit hard enough to hurt the opponent with your blows, and you're fast enough that they can't hit you.....they're kinda screwed.

And as shown in Marvel, speed wrecks telepaths too. Exodus got whupped by Quicksilver of all people. So if you can move faster than they can react, then how is speed not a crushing advantage?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
All three of those characters do possess durability to weather a blitz for some amount of time (debateable how long) as well as other powers that can level the playing field and unless we all drink the Combo-to-KO koolaid we must accept that if they can withstand a blitz long enough to use said powers they have the chance to win.

I'd agree wholeheartedly on the speed kills 10/10 argument but for the nature of the beast that is comics. We either have to call any instance of a slower character tagging a faster character PIS or accept that speed is not an end all be all advantage.

I never said this about you but this was a good a** post.

Originally posted by carver9
I never said this about you but this was a good a** post.


Edit: Don't think for a second I'm agreeing with you Carver. I'm just not of the same extreme view as Phil in this situation.

You're the opposite extreme and don't you forget it. uhuh

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Or could it be completely dependent upon how much of the speed force they are currently accessing. If there level of speed in DC they can reach is much higher, could not also there control be more complete?

There's definitely an under current of PIS with Flashes especially with regards to the problems they face physically from some of their rogues. However, as a counter to that stance, they are not infallible and they have been surprised or outmaneuvered with clever tactics on occasion.

You have to keep in mind that they don't benefit from the extra sensory powers that Supes enjoys, beyond super perception. So they can be surprised or blind sided by stealth etc.

For instance sound dampening an area to affect their hearing and using TK at the same time would be effective against them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Name an example then.


wolverine, spiderman ect. There are loads of examples as DD, capt ect.


Almost any elite street has better combat speed showings then traveling speed.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Check your post it must be wrong then

Originally posted by Omega Vision
8 punches? Really? That's a bit extreme. Unless you think Thor isn't at least comparable in durability to Superman I don't see Superman downing him with so few blows when he himself could more than stand up to that many blows and keep coming.

I've tried to imagine what it'd be like to be that fast. And the conclusion I always come to is that what should logically be the case and what is portrayed in comics are two different things. The one time this 'speed kills 10/10' argument is completely validated that I can think of is the example of Zoom. The opponent wouldn't be able to brace himself for the attack, and they'd come in quick succesion. You don't think that Thor standing there and Superman trying his best to knock him out, wouldn't be able to do it in 8 punches?

Anyway, that's highly irrelevant. My point is that Superman could go home, read a book, feed Krypto, bang Lois and then come back to the fight, and Thor still wouldn't have percieved it to be started (as neither would have Lois!), if we actually take the perception time he's shown in comics. I'm not exagerating, if you actually take a closer look at what the level of speed he's capable of implies.

Even with the "reflexes" hilariousness, in the time it takes Thanos to lift a hand somebody like, say, Barry, would grow old and die in the relative time to him.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
wolverine, spiderman ect. There are loads of examples as DD, capt ect.


Almost any elite street has better combat speed showings then traveling speed. Ah, ok I can see what you are saying here but I still maintain those guys can probably run faster than they can fight it's just common sense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Every character's travel speed is faster than fight speed imo.

And this is one of the main reasons I think Flash is one of the only characters that can actually fight at light speed.

Originally posted by carver9
You didn't show me anything. You showed me Zod and Supes fighting and about 10 people came in and told you that you were wrong. All of the feats you put up, you don't even know the context of them. Stop going to the respect thread and actually read the comics.

Show ALL of us someone from DC destroying a planet. Ooh.

Originally posted by Allankles
There's definitely an under current of PIS with Flashes especially with regards to the problems they face physically from some of their rogues. However, as a counter to that stance, they are not infallible and they have been surprised or outmaneuvered with clever tactics on occasion.

You have to keep in mind that they don't benefit from the extra sensory powers that Supes enjoys, beyond super perception. So they can be surprised or blind sided by stealth etc.

For instance sound dampening an area to affect their hearing and using TK at the same time would be effective against them.
true, but I wondering if there reaction time is linked dirrectly to there speed. If so it could explain a lot of there lower showings. If the "speed force" is a living like entity or power source that the flashes utilize. Then it might depend how much speed force then utilize at any given moment determines there reaction time and not simply there speed.

Originally posted by dmills
Ooh. Originally posted by -Pr-
Also, guys, leave strength and durability out of this. there's a couple of people in this thread I was about to reply to (and possibly warn), but i'll just leave it at telling you all not to go off topic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ah, ok I can see what you are saying here but I still maintain those guys can probably run faster than they can fight it's just common sense.
problem is comics dont fallow such things, And I disagree because I feel they have the ability to move a much faster speeds in bursts, but can't maintain nearly the same pace while running to destination.




Reason I first brought it up is becuase Thor movement speed is leagues beyond his combat speed. Superman is not nearly in the same boat. He still posses extremely high levels of combat speed but there are characters like thor who seems to have far greater kap between his movement speed and combat speed.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Marvel tends to be more specific in limitations and strength scale. DC goes for hyperbole which is why IMO their high ends in specific areas where they are said to be "the best" in their field tends to outclass Marvel in physical stats. Energy projection I'd lean towards marvel however. For example DC will have a brick like superman for example physically overcome/influence an abstract concept with raw strength or some physical means. Marvel will tend to have some mystic/psionic reason that is much more convincing even with suspension of disbelief in play. And that -in a nutshell- is what differentiates the two companies.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
problem is comics dont fallow such things, And I disagree because I feel they have the ability to move a much faster speeds in bursts, but can't maintain nearly the same pace while runn to destination. You also can't fight at your fastest pace for long durations of time either.

Look at any mma fighter in round 1 if he goes all out he won't have anywhere near the same tempo for round 2.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Right. But then what do we do with all the fights where he doesn't absolutely rapestomp his slower opponent while whistling Carmen and preparing Crepes Suzette for Lois? Tehnically, they are PIS, but at the same time it's how comic stories work - and the writers themselves have directly admitted that logically those with Flash-level abilities should end fights in two panels. But that's the way it is.

Speed kills. People have to accept it so that we can move on.

nah, you simply need to realize that i don't need to be as fast as you, to punch you in the mouth.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You also can't fight at your fastest pace for long durations of time either.

Look at any mma fighter in round 1 if he goes all out he won't have anywhere near the same tempo for round 2.

Depends on the guys cardio, and also his weight class (to some extent). Super human stamina is part and parcel of these guys, some of them have fought consistently for days without ceasing.

Originally posted by Allankles
Depends on the guys cardio, and also his weight class (to some extent). Super human stamina is part and parcel of these guys, some of them have fought consistently for days without ceasing. I was using this irl example to his statement on sprinting/long distance running. My point is it only makes sense that these guys can travel faster than fight at.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What's your view on consistent PIS?

Because that's what it is. There are more cases of Superman fighting a much slower opponent (and not necessarily holding back either) and NOT absolutely stomping them than the reverse.

Precisely. Lots of people are using the PIS argument to give speedsters an advantage that no one else has on the forum: the ability to ignore ALL of their low-end feats.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What's your view on consistent PIS?

Because that's what it is. There are more cases of Superman fighting a much slower opponent (and not necessarily holding back either) and NOT absolutely stomping them than the reverse. Consistent PIS is still PIS, though. And like I said, story necessities dictate character capabilities. It's not limited to Superman, and it will always be this way.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What's your view on consistent PIS?

Because that's what it is. There are more cases of Superman fighting a much slower opponent (and not necessarily holding back either) and NOT absolutely stomping them than the reverse.

Wow...

facepalm

Originally posted by Simbon
Precisely. Lots of people are using the PIS argument to give speedsters an advantage that no one else has on the forum: the ability to ignore ALL of their low-end feats. I agree I think pis should be used sparingly if it all. I myself don't ever cite pis.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I was using this irl example to his statement on sprinting/long distance running. My point is it only makes sense that these guys can travel faster than fight at.

This...

100% true.

Originally posted by Simbon
Precisely. Lots of people are using the PIS argument to give speedsters an advantage that no one else has on the forum: the ability to ignore ALL of their low-end feats.

I said this in a previous thread. PIS is a word that should be sh**** on.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree I think pis should be used sparingly if it all. I myself don't ever cite pis.

Spidey and the cops are just that powerful, huh?