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Much is spoken about suicide, many believe it is an act of cowardice. Others see it as brave to face death. I believe life is a choice we decide to make each and everyday. I think most adults age 35 and up have at sometime contemplated ending it for themselves. I've never understood why it's against the law. After all going too prison really would show you how great life can be after failing to kill yourself because the noose gave way or you miscalculated the lethal dose.

Does Society have the right to interfere? Is suicide ever justifiable?

Discuss.

Here


I believe that suicide is for people who can't handle the real world. It is the cowards way out. I've thought about it, 99% of the population has. But I know not to act on it.

I don't consider it cowardice... suicide, when in reference to dealing with problems is more or less a mental health issue as opposed to any form of cowardly act...

I think by dismissing these cases as acts of cowardice will only make the person contemplating it think that much lower of themselves.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
Here


I believe that suicide is for people who can't handle the real world. It is the cowards way out. I've thought about it, 99% of the population has. But I know not to act on it.

Saw that thread and given the initial post it seemed to have no focus.

So you've thought about it? How old are you if I may ask?

Originally posted by Liberator
I don't consider it cowardice... suicide, when in reference to dealing with problems is more or less a mental health issue as opposed to any form of cowardly act...

I think by dismissing these cases as acts of cowardice will only make the person contemplating it think that much lower of themselves.

Very balanced in my opinion, do you think though beyond a mental health issue it might be a way of saving others pain.

Everyone goes through pain, suffering, self-esteem issues, depression, money problems, and yet, we all haven't killed ourselves.

I believe that the weak will die, the strong will survive. It's cruel sounding yes, but it's true.

I think suicide is painless. It brings on many changes.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think suicide is painless. It brings on many changes.

A lot of truth in the next line methinks.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Very balanced in my opinion, do you think though beyond a mental health issue it might be a way of saving others pain.

I understand this point, I am not so sure however on whether I agree or not. Allowing the patient to take the easy way out gives doctors an excuse to not follow through on the treatment. I feel as if this is a testament to western medical practices in that they only look for treatments - not cures.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
A lot of truth in the next line methinks.

There is, but I chose to focus on these.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
Everyone goes through pain, suffering, self-esteem issues, depression, money problems, and yet, we all haven't killed ourselves.

I believe that the weak will die, the strong will survive. It's cruel sounding yes, but it's true.

It's degrees of suffering, say a vet with PTSD who has fought in multiple battles returns and the picture in his head crush him or a man has bagged and tagged lots of dead children or someone has a terminal disease that is causing incredible suffering to them.

Originally posted by Liberator
I understand this point, I am not so sure however on whether I agree or not. Allowing the patient to take the easy way out gives doctors an excuse to not follow through on the treatment. I feel as if this is a testament to western medical practices in that they only look for treatments - not cures.

What about if the individual who commits it is in great pain or has simply seen more than their brain can take. People have different levels of tolerance and most people see little death and destruction.



Originally posted by Bardock42
There is, but I chose to focus on these.

I can well see why

Again, I see the point you are making here. I certaintly wouldn't criminalise suicide as many nations have... that seems counter-productive.

I think that 100% effort should be made to get these people help before making any decisions based on life and death.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
Here


I believe that suicide is for people who can't handle the real world. It is the cowards way out. I've thought about it, 99% of the population has. But I know not to act on it.

As often Doug Stanhope is completely correct about suicide:

If it was the coward's way out, everyone would be doing it. Most people are not that brave. Sure it's sad when a kid kills himself, he didn't really give life a chance. But life is like a movie, if the first two-thirds of it sucked, it's probably not gonna get really good right at the end, and no one should blame them for walking out early.

Originally posted by Bardock42
As often Doug Stanhope is completely correct about suicide:

If it was the coward's way out, everyone would be doing it. Most people are not that brave. Sure it's sad when a kid kills himself, he didn't really give life a chance. But life is like a movie, if the first two-thirds of it sucked, it's probably not gonna get really good right at the end, and no one should blame them for walking out early.

You are brilliant sometimes, I love that quote and your sarcasm does amuse me.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
You are brilliant sometimes, I love that quote and your sarcasm does amuse me.

Why, thank you, stranger...

Originally posted by Liberator
Again, I see the point you are making here. I certaintly wouldn't criminalise suicide as many nations have... that seems counter-productive.

I think that 100% effort should be made to get these people help before making any decisions based on life and death.

Agreed, I know a man and you'll love this- :-( who was arrested and refused medication by the british police during an interview. He was then released without charge and he was on shit loads of anti depressants and had tried to top himself twice. Can we say missed duty of care?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why, thank you, stranger...

No problem.. :-)

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Agreed, I know a man and you'll love this- :-( who was arrested and refused medication by the british police during an interview. He was then released without charge and he was on shit loads of anti depressants and had tried to top himself twice. Can we say missed duty of care?

Why was he in custody? For attempted suicide?

I think suicide can be a very selfish act, if you have loved ones.

It can be justifiable, even assisted, if someone has a terminal illness and they are suffering.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Much is spoken about suicide, many believe it is an act of cowardice. Others see it as brave to face death. I believe life is a choice we decide to make each and everyday. I think most adults age 35 and up have at sometime contemplated ending it for themselves. I've never understood why it's against the law. After all going too prison really would show you how great life can be after failing to kill yourself because the noose gave way or you miscalculated the lethal dose.

Does Society have the right to interfere? Is suicide ever justifiable?

Discuss.

It is awful thing to do to one self.And yes I do think that Society should interfere.Even through it is normanly too late by that time.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
I think suicide can be a very selfish act, if you have loved ones.

It can be justifiable, even assisted, if someone has a terminal illness and they are suffering.

I think it can definitely be selfish, but selfish behavior shouldn't mean that it can't be allowed.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Much is spoken about suicide, many believe it is an act of cowardice. Others see it as brave to face death. I believe life is a choice we decide to make each and everyday. I think most adults age 35 and up have at sometime contemplated ending it for themselves. I've never understood why it's against the law. After all going too prison really would show you how great life can be after failing to kill yourself because the noose gave way or you miscalculated the lethal dose.

Does Society have the right to interfere? Is suicide ever justifiable?

Discuss.

wait... so the negative impact on family members of drug use is a good reason to keep them illegal, but the negative impact on family members from suicide is moot?

I don't think it should be illegal, and I don't think it will cause you to go to hell.

I just think that you should really think about if life is really THAT terrible.

But in the end, it should be your choice.

Originally posted by inimalist
wait... so the negative impact on family members of drug use is a good reason to keep them illegal, but the negative impact on family members from suicide is moot?

Don't bring other debates into this one please. :-)

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Don't bring other debates into this one please. :-)

you admit this is a glaring hypocrisy? or do you have some mental cartwheels?

Originally posted by inimalist
you admit this is a glaring hypocrisy? or do you have some mental cartwheels?

Not at all, I believe multiple issues make me very anti Marijuana. I also believe under certain circumstances suicide can be a relief for family and friends. It is a distinctly different issue.

i dont see how, elaborate

Originally posted by inimalist
i dont see how, elaborate

If you cannot see believing in certain circumstances suicide is justified and being anti someone smoking marijuana are different debates, I can't really say anything. However I will say neither is about Christmas.

so you are unable to differentiate these things?

Originally posted by inimalist
so you are unable to differentiate these things?

Thats why i'm not debating about Marijuana in a Suicide thread or Christmas in either. I don't carry points over because I see each issue as separate. Trying to score points on one issue through another is a political technique which is flawed as debates are never that simple and neither are people.

In the end, what does it really matter if Suicide is illegal or not? The only impact this has on it is the rare instances in which the suicide fails. Most of the time, if someone wants to commit suicide they are going to do it. It's wrong, selfish, and in most cases cowardly, but people have tons of creative ways of getting the job done with no way for the police to interfere before it's too late.

Now, if you want to make the claim that it's someone's choice, and that if they DO make the choice, doctors have to aid them in their decision, then THAT I disagree with completely.

Originally posted by TacDavey
In the end, what does it really matter if Suicide is illegal or not? The only impact this has on it is the rare instances in which the suicide fails. Most of the time, if someone wants to commit suicide they are going to do it. It's wrong, selfish, and in most cases cowardly, but people have tons of creative ways of getting the job done with no way for the police to interfere before it's too late.

Now, if you want to make the claim that it's someone's choice, and that if they DO make the choice, doctors have to aid them in their decision, then THAT I disagree with completely.

Interesting, no Euthanasia even for the terminally ill?

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Interesting, no Euthanasia even for the terminally ill?

No. It degrades the value of life. If it's alright to kill because a person isn't happy, what is to stop us from killing because the kids boy friend dumped her? Where do we draw the line on what "suffering" is enough to merit assisted suicide? Who get's to decide where to draw that line, and why are they qualified to make that decision? It causes too many problems.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No. It degrades the value of life. If it's alright to kill because a person isn't happy, what is to stop us from killing because the kids boy friend dumped her? Where do we draw the line on what "suffering" is enough to merit assisted suicide? Who get's to decide where to draw that line, and why are they qualified to make that decision? It causes too many problems.

No offence but are you strongly Christian?

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
No offence but are you strongly Christian?

I don't see what that has to do with anything...

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't see what that has to do with anything...

It's not meant negatively, it's just I can see that your beliefs may run through your opinions. I don't have a problem with that.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
It's not meant negatively, it's just I can see that your beliefs may run through your opinions. I don't have a problem with that.

No worries, I didn't think you meant it negatively. I just don't see the relevance. I don't think, in this particular subject, that my points are any more or less valid based off my religious views.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No worries, I didn't think you meant it negatively. I just don't see the relevance. I don't think, in this particular subject, that my points are any more or less valid based off my religious views.

Fair enough, the thing people forget in many debates is opinions vary based on our different perspectives. Our views are coloured strongly by our beliefs. I am an atheist and as such I come at things very differently to you. It does not mean I do not believe you are entitled to your opinion.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
Fair enough, the thing people forget in many debates is opinions vary based on our different perspectives. Our views are coloured strongly by our beliefs. I am an atheist and as such I come at things very differently to you. It does not mean I do not believe you are entitled to your opinion.

Right. But in regards to this topic, I don't think my view point is specific only to Christians or religious people. An atheist can very well argue the same way I did.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Right. But in regards to this topic, I don't think my view point is specific only to Christians or religious people. An atheist can very well argue the same way I did.

I think so, but it's more likely to come from a Christian.

I'm an advocate of Dr. Jack Kevorkian. If a person wants to end their life, then, by all means, they should be allowed to.

However, withouth trying to sound like a hypocrite, I will say that an utterly random suicide without a moments notice is a very shocking and hurtful situation for the families/friends of the departed. I've been involved in several suicides of family/friend that have devastated me.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
ThI don't carry points over because I see each issue as separate.

so you admit you are making a hypocritical point? or could you elaborate without a dodge?

Originally posted by Impediment
I'm an advocate of Dr. Jack Kevorkian. If a person wants to end their life, then, by all means, they should be allowed to.

However, withouth trying to sound like a hypocrite, I will say that an utterly random suicide without a moments notice is a very shocking and hurtful situation for the families/friends of the departed. I've been involved in several suicides of family/friend that have devastated me.

Agreed completely, a man I know- a teacher lost both his sons to suicide within 5 years. Both had been through divorces and lost children.

Originally posted by inimalist
so you admit you are making a hypocritical point? or could you elaborate without a dodge?

I've elaborated enough, think about what i've said.

Just to throw this in the hat, I would strongly suggest that the individual in question, before going to Dr. Kevorkian, get counseling and medical attention before jumping to such a radical conclusion as suicide.

I mean, it's only logical, right?

If, then, they still wanted to die, then, again, I say that it's their right.

Originally posted by Daemon Seed
I've elaborated enough, think about what i've said.

dodge

Originally posted by Impediment
Just to throw this in the hat, I would strongly suggest that the individual in question, before going to Dr. Kevorkian, get counseling and medical attention before jumping to such a radical conclusion as suicide.

I mean, it's only logical, right?

If, then, they still wanted to die, then, again, I say that it's their right.

I would say though, often people in that state are in no position to make a rational decision. People often just snap and do it.

We have doctor assisted suicide in my state; I think the system is fantastic. My biggest complaint, actually, is that it makes such aid too hard to get.

But what are the criteria for assisted suicide? You can't just allow people to kill themselves because their girlfriend dumped them.

you think suicide should be illegal?

Originally posted by TacDavey
But what are the criteria for assisted suicide? You can't just allow people to kill themselves because their girlfriend dumped them.
It's for people w/ terminal illness.

Originally posted by inimalist
you think suicide should be illegal?

i remember back in the day they had a box for suicide on refferals

Originally posted by Utsukushii
Everyone goes through pain, suffering, self-esteem issues, depression, money problems, and yet, we all haven't killed ourselves.

I believe that the weak will die, the strong will survive. It's cruel sounding yes, but it's true. some peoples problems are more severe than others. Not everyone is the same

Originally posted by inimalist
you think suicide should be illegal?

Pretty much.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It's for people w/ terminal illness.

Well, if there is really, absolutely nothing that can be done for them, and it's unbearable... Though I worry that would act as a stepping stone for less and less severe cases getting approved for suicide.

Illegal or not, what can the Law do to you exactly once you have killed yourself ?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Pretty much.

so, a person is depressed enough to kill themselves, the state should prosecute them as a criminal?

Originally posted by chomperx9
Illegal or not, what can the Law do to you exactly once you have killed yourself ?

its more about what happens to people who are unsuccessful or to the families. It used to be the case that families of people who commited suicide would face huge reprecussions from the state

Originally posted by TacDavey
Well, if there is really, absolutely nothing that can be done for them, and it's unbearable... Though I worry that would act as a stepping stone for less and less severe cases getting approved for suicide.
I would approve of that... in fact I think it is far to strict the way it is right now. Surely living in agony should be proper grounds even if it will take more than 6 months (our limit) to kill you. I really think it's idiotic to assume we can judge how one person's pain compares to another.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, a person is depressed enough to kill themselves, the state should prosecute them as a criminal?

Well, if they commit suicide, there isn't anything you can do to them.

I think the "illegal" side of it pertains more to the assisting of the suicide. Those who helped them do it.

I also don't think doctors should legally be allowed to help.

Bottom line, I don't think the government or hospitals or what have you should offer suicide as an alternative to anything.

And as far as those who are depressed enough to consider suicide who get caught trying... I don't think they should be treated like criminals and sent to jail. I think they should be sent somewhere they can get help.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I would approve of that... in fact I think it is far to strict the way it is right now. Surely living in agony should be proper grounds even if it will take more than 6 months (our limit) to kill you. I really think it's idiotic to assume we can judge how one person's pain compares to another.

I don't see anything wrong will speeding along the process if someone is going to die anyway. I worry that this will lead to people being able to kill themselves for less severe reasons. Where do we draw the line? Like you said, we can't judge one person's pain over another.

so you are against assisted suicide, not suicide proper?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't see anything wrong will speeding along the process if someone is going to die anyway. I worry that this will lead to people being able to kill themselves for less severe reasons. Where do we draw the line? Like you said, we can't judge one person's pain over another.
That's why I opt on the side of personal freedom.

Originally posted by inimalist
so you are against assisted suicide, not suicide proper?

Well, I'm against suicide in general, but the fact is there isn't much you can really do about it in terms of people killing themselves by themselves.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's why I opt on the side of personal freedom.

You think anyone should be able to kill themselves? Come in, fill out some paper work and we'll work out a day we can bring you in and kill you?

Most of the people who consider suicide aren't in the right state of mind. I'm seeing the population take a drastic drop if we just allow anyone to off themselves. Not to mention the blow it will have to families when Jenny comes home from not getting into the band and tells mom she's going to the suicide clinic because she's 18 and it's her right.

Originally posted by TacDavey
But what are the criteria for assisted suicide? You can't just allow people to kill themselves because their girlfriend dumped them.

I think that shouldn't be your call to make.

Like with so many other things, I'm pro-choice on suicide.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think that shouldn't be your call to make.

Like with so many other things, I'm pro-choice on suicide.

It shouldn't be theirs.

Most people who want to commit suicide are too immature, or not in their right minds. To make it easy for them would be signing a death warrant for a lot of people who should be getting help.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It shouldn't be theirs.

Most people who want to commit suicide are too immature, or not in their right minds. To make it easy for them would be signing a death warrant for a lot of people who should be getting help.


This topic has actually had me do quite a bit of research and I've come to this conclusion.

I agree with Bardock. It should be their choice. It's their life.

I still find it to me cowardly and I believe that there are other ways around it. But what is making it illegal going to do? If they succeed in killing themselves, the cops can't do anything, and if they don't, what are they going to do? Send them to prison where they'll try again? Seems pointless.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
This topic has actually had me do quite a bit of research and I've come to this conclusion.

I agree with Bardock. It should be their choice. It's their life.

I still find it to me cowardly and I believe that there are other ways around it. But what is making it illegal going to do? If they succeed in killing themselves, the cops can't do anything, and if they don't, what are they going to do? Send them to prison where they'll try again? Seems pointless.

That was my point. I fully understand that there is little that will happen in it is illegal. They can still commit suicide without much problem.

But I see it as worse to make it legal. Because once that happens, you'll have clinics opening up for suicides like you do for abortions. Once someone turns 18, probably, it will be their choice if the want suicide or not. And the fact that it is very easy to get one will drive a lot of people, particularly young kids, into making stupid decisions and ending up killing themselves. Families will be devastated.

It's better to just make it illegal and be done with it. If they really want to commit suicide, they still can. Not much we can do to stop them. But we shouldn't be helping them along.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That was my point. I fully understand that there is little that will happen in it is illegal. They can still commit suicide without much problem.

But I see it as worse to make it legal. Because once that happens, you'll have clinics opening up for suicides like you do for abortions. Once someone turns 18, probably, it will be their choice if the want suicide or not. And the fact that it is very easy to get one will drive a lot of people, particularly young kids, into making stupid decisions and ending up killing themselves. Families will be devastated.

It's better to just make it illegal and be done with it. If they really want to commit suicide, they still can. Not much we can do to stop them. But we shouldn't be helping them along.

Definition of Suicide : The action of killing oneself intentionally

If clinics opened up to assist with suicide. It would no longer be suicide. If anything it would probably be something like manslaughter

Originally posted by TacDavey
Once someone turns 18, probably, it will be their choice if the want suicide or not. And the fact that it is very easy to get one will drive a lot of people, particularly young kids, into making stupid decisions and ending up killing themselves.

lol

do you have a single shred of evidence to back this up?

Originally posted by Utsukushii
Definition of Suicide : The action of killing oneself intentionally

If clinics opened up to assist with suicide. It would no longer be suicide. If anything it would probably be something like manslaughter

It would be assisted suicide.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

do you have a single shred of evidence to back this up?

Not really. Just something I worry about happening.

Look at the way it is now. You have tons of teenagers who consider suicide regularly, and many of them are prone to impulsive, stupid decisions. We shouldn't make suicide easy for people.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Not really. Just something I worry about happening.

Look at the way it is now. You have tons of teenagers who consider suicide regularly, and many of them are prone to impulsive, stupid decisions. We shouldn't make suicide easy for people.

I'd pick up a couple of psychiatric journals about suicide and depression if I were you

long story short: you needn't worry

Originally posted by inimalist
I'd pick up a couple of psychiatric journals about suicide and depression if I were you

long story short: you needn't worry

Except we see tons of people committing suicide despite the fact it's illegal. It isn't a difficult jump to see what would happen if the government supported it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Except we see tons of people committing suicide despite the fact it's illegal. It isn't a difficult jump to see what would happen if the government supported it.

the legality of suicide has no impact on its rate...

Originally posted by TacDavey
We shouldn't make suicide easy for people.

I can walk outside and get hit by a semi.

I can grab a gun and blow my brains out.

I can stab myself with a kitchen knife.

I can fall out my bedroom window.

I can place a plastic bag on my head.


How much easier can it get?

Originally posted by TacDavey
It shouldn't be theirs.

Most people who want to commit suicide are too immature, or not in their right minds. To make it easy for them would be signing a death warrant for a lot of people who should be getting help.

It should be theirs. It's their life. You shouldn't get to make the call whether an adult is too immature or not in their right mind. And we definitely shouldn't criminalize people helping people who want to die.

Originally posted by inimalist
the legality of suicide has no impact on its rate...

A bit like drugs I suppose, in fact drugs seem to have an inverse relationship with legality.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
I think suicide can be a very selfish act, if you have loved ones. I also consider it an act of cowardice when, eg, a politician or CEO gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, then kills himself to avoid jail time or even the embarassment of a trial.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
It can be justifiable, even assisted, if someone has a terminal illness and they are suffering. Sometimes, when someone is ready to go, the peace that comes over them is almost tangible.

Originally posted by Bardock42
A bit like drugs I suppose, in fact drugs seem to have an inverse relationship with legality.

ha, I just made a post in another thread sort of related to this and the extremes a state would need to go to curtail drug use

I guess I can't say for sure that suicide rates aren't affected by the law, but look even at Muslim nations, where there is such a huge stigma against it, the rates are still fairly prevelant.

that being said, male suicide is a silent epidemic, and the "men use more fatal methods" excuse does NOT account for it. The only nation where female suicide matches that of males is in China, and places like scandanavia have equal rates of self harm between males and females (the old addage is that females harm, men kill, but if harm rates are the same in scandanavia and males are still far more likely to kill themselves, it highlights the issue)

Originally posted by Utsukushii
I can walk outside and get hit by a semi.

I can grab a gun and blow my brains out.

I can stab myself with a kitchen knife.

I can fall out my bedroom window.

I can place a plastic bag on my head.


How much easier can it get?

A LOT easier. How about some pills or an injection that makes you go to sleep? The ways you provided were quite painful, and difficult to actually go through with.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It should be theirs. It's their life. You shouldn't get to make the call whether an adult is too immature or not in their right mind. And we definitely shouldn't criminalize people helping people who want to die.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I absolutely think we should be working to prevent suicide. Not going along with it. If someone wants to kill themselves, they need help. Not an easy way to do it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
A LOT easier. How about some pills or an injection that makes you go to sleep? The ways you provided were quite painful, and difficult to actually go through with.

from the psychological data, there has never been someone for whom killing themselves was an easy choice, or something they did on a whim

Originally posted by inimalist
from the psychological data, there has never been someone for whom killing themselves was an easy choice, or something they did on a whim

So let's make it easy, right?

Originally posted by TacDavey


Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I absolutely think we should be working to prevent suicide. Not going along with it. If someone wants to kill themselves, they need help. Not an easy way to do it.

We should help people, sure, we shouldn't criminalize them, in some cases death may be the best option for a person.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So let's make it easy, right?

the psychological decision to kill oneself is never easy, whether one has support or not

there is no data to the contrary

Originally posted by Bardock42
We should help people, sure, we shouldn't criminalize them, in some cases death may be the best option for a person.

In few cases, I would argue. Such as terminally ill people. That doesn't mean suicides should be allowed for any and everyone seeking them.

Originally posted by inimalist
the psychological decision to kill oneself is never easy, whether one has support or not

there is no data to the contrary

Suicide SHOULD be a hard option. And we shouldn't try making it any easier. You really don't think the government telling you it's okay wouldn't play any role in someone's decision to commit suicide or not? Not even a little?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Suicide SHOULD be a hard option. And we shouldn't try making it any easier. You really don't think the government telling you it's okay wouldn't play any role in someone's decision to commit suicide or not? Not even a little?

no, I don't, and I hardly think there is any evidence to prove it

all that government involvement does is make the process harder on the family.

Originally posted by inimalist
no, I don't, and I hardly think there is any evidence to prove it

all that government involvement does is make the process harder on the family.

I have to disagree. If an action is not accepted by social norms, that usually aids a little bit in deterring people from doing it.

However, if you have the government backing you and telling you it is perfectly acceptable, you are far more likely to think just that.

no, you aren't, but meh

Originally posted by inimalist
no, you aren't, but meh

Yes you are. It influences most people. At least a little.

no, it really doesn't...

the legality of things rarely affects their rate... especially something like suicide which is essentially a personal decision.

The best you could point at is the middle east, where there is HUGE stigma against it, but even then, rates are still generally on par with other nations, and often the numbers are suppressed

unless you have a single shred of evidence to support what you are saying, I'm going to side with mental health professionals, who, you know, have dedicated their life to this type of thing

Originally posted by TacDavey
You think anyone should be able to kill themselves? Come in, fill out some paper work and we'll work out a day we can bring you in and kill you?

Most of the people who consider suicide aren't in the right state of mind. I'm seeing the population take a drastic drop if we just allow anyone to off themselves. Not to mention the blow it will have to families when Jenny comes home from not getting into the band and tells mom she's going to the suicide clinic because she's 18 and it's her right.
The population would take a "drastic drop"?

What, do you think people are deciding not to kill themselves because they could have legal repercussions? Hello, you can't punish a dead person.

Originally posted by TacDavey
So let's make it easy, right?
Um, that would make it HARDER.

With illegal suicide, any depressed shmuck can do it.

With legal suicide, there is an actual process for determining if someone "deserves" it.

Originally posted by inimalist
no, it really doesn't...

the legality of things rarely affects their rate... especially something like suicide which is essentially a personal decision.

The best you could point at is the middle east, where there is HUGE stigma against it, but even then, rates are still generally on par with other nations, and often the numbers are suppressed

unless you have a single shred of evidence to support what you are saying, I'm going to side with mental health professionals, who, you know, have dedicated their life to this type of thing

People follow what others around them are telling them. Look at fads, fashion etc etc etc. It may not make a HUGE difference, but to say it does absolutely nothing is simply false.

If people grow up in a society that shuns suicide. They are going to think more along those lines, because that's what they've been taught.

Does this guarantee that people are going to follow along with what the society is saying? No. Does it influence the way they think about things? Absolutely.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The population would take a "drastic drop"?

What, do you think people are deciding not to kill themselves because they could have legal repercussions? Hello, you can't punish a dead person.

No, I think people would be more open to the idea of suicide if it was accepted and supported, and made easy by the government.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, that would make it HARDER.

With illegal suicide, any depressed shmuck can do it.

With legal suicide, there is an actual process for determining if someone "deserves" it.

With legal suicide any depressed shmuck and STILL do it, but now we have MORE ways for more people to do it.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, I think people would be more open to the idea of suicide if it was accepted and supported, and made easy by the government.
And you base this one what?

Originally posted by TacDavey
With legal suicide any depressed shmuck and STILL do it, but now we have MORE ways for more people to do it.
Are you claiming that non-depressed people will start killing themselves?

His posts are so stupid I literally am too taken aback to even think of a proper response. I'm going to try.

I could jump out my window right now. How the **** does me being legally allowed to do so going to make it easier for me to do it? The only reason anyone follows the rules is because they're afraid of what happens when they don't. That is, literally, the only reason anyone on the planet follows rules. When you're dead there are no repercussions, so how in the hell do you figure that people are "afraid" of committing suicide because of legal repercussions? I know what you're going to say, "b-but if it's legal the government will be supporting it!" o, that's retarded, because even if it's legal, you still have... oh I don't know... all of your loved ones and friends telling you not to do it? Only a moron would say "well everyone I know is saying I shouldn't kill myself buuuut the government says its cool so trololo here I goooooo".

No.

If the government supported suicide, no one would want to do it anymore. Listening to government advice is not a popular thing. So this guy has a point: hatred of the man and a distaste of his conformist support of suicide will lead to a decreased number of purposefully self-inflicted fatalities. QED

Originally posted by King Kandy
And you base this one what?

On the fact that people base their belief on what they are taught by the world around them.

Does growing up in a society that shuns something, teaches you that it is wrong, those you see around you hold to it being wrong, the government does not support it, mean you will feel the same way?

No.

Does it INFLUENCE how you feel about it? Yes!

To say that is has absolutely zero effect on a person is simply incorrect. It doesn't decide for them, but it does play an active role in how they look at something.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Are you claiming that non-depressed people will start killing themselves?

No. When did I say that?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
His posts are so stupid I literally am too taken aback to even think of a proper response. I'm going to try.

I could jump out my window right now. How the **** does me being legally allowed to do so going to make it easier for me to do it? The only reason anyone follows the rules is because they're afraid of what happens when they don't. That is, literally, the only reason anyone on the planet follows rules. When you're dead there are no repercussions, so how in the hell do you figure that people are "afraid" of committing suicide because of legal repercussions? I know what you're going to say, "b-but if it's legal the government will be supporting it!" o, that's retarded, because even if it's legal, you still have... oh I don't know... all of your loved ones and friends telling you not to do it? Only a moron would say "well everyone I know is saying I shouldn't kill myself buuuut the government says its cool so trololo here I goooooo".

No.

Sigh...

You know. You really aught to make sure you have a grasp on someone's points before you go around insulting them. A little maturity goes a long way.

I don't think the fact that suicide is illegal stops people from killing themselves out of fear for legal repercussions. I think I've made that clear in at least three different posts.

I think that the fact that suicide is shown in our society as being wrong influences the decisions of those who consider it. Maybe not to a great degree, but it's there.

I think that if suicide were made legal, and people were taught that this is an acceptable option, we would be seeing a lot more suicides than we would otherwise.

Suicide being legal does not = This is an acceptable solution to your problems do it. That is an illogical belief. There are many things that you can get away with doing, legally, that widely considered to be stupid.

Furthermore, the government has far less of an influence on an individual then the people around them. No sane individual is going to ever think that suicide is a good idea because its legal, if the people he is close to are all unanimously arguing otherwise.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Suicide being legal does not = This is an acceptable solution to your problems do it. That is an illogical belief.

It becomes an accepted alternative. The government, and society around you, is telling you that suicide is alright if that is your choice.

The law does not define society, the law defines the rules of a government. The people around you are society.

Well the environment and how you were raised does play a role. In this case it wouldn't be the law as much though as personal influence and tradition.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The law does not define society, the law defines the rules of a government. The people around you are society.

I would say laws help shape society.

Originally posted by TacDavey
A LOT easier. How about some pills or an injection that makes you go to sleep? The ways you provided were quite painful, and difficult to actually go through with.



Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I absolutely think we should be working to prevent suicide. Not going along with it. If someone wants to kill themselves, they need help. Not an easy way to do it.


You can overdose on pills now....

Death is no easy answer, for those who wish to know. Just ask those people that have been before you to see what fate the future holds- Cause it ain't pretty!

The late and great Phil Lynott.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
You can overdose on pills now....

This requires you to have the correct pills and the correct dosage.

you can overdose on diphenhydramine, which is an active in most allergy pills. 8 dollars to kill yourself and no one can stop you.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
you can overdose on diphenhydramine, which is an active in most allergy pills. 8 dollars to kill yourself and no one can stop you.

You would have to take a lot to overdose, and if you get the dosage wrong you're not going to have much fun.

Picking up pills or shots specifically designed to provide you an easy death is still... well, easier.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You would have to take a lot to overdose, and if you get the dosage wrong you're not going to have much fun.

Picking up pills or shots specifically designed to provide you an easy death is still... well, easier.


What I'm saying is, regardless of whether it's legal or not. You can still kill yourself if you really want to.

Originally posted by Utsukushii
What I'm saying is, regardless of whether it's legal or not. You can still kill yourself if you really want to.

I absolutely agree with that.

Most people say they are to get attention or what not and don't do it at all, I do argee with it being a very selfish thing to do however.

I am not entirely sure a depression of that level is really something that one brings unto themselves.

Originally posted by Liberator
I am not entirely sure a depression of that level is really something that one brings unto themselves.

Absolutely and even if it was, as humans we should empathise and support.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Most people say they are to get attention or what not and don't do it at all, I do argee with it being a very selfish thing to do however.

attention seeking behaviour of this type is a telltale sign that someone has some type of psychological issue. It could be either depression or mania, but both are incredibly dangerous for an individual

rather than chastising someone for "trying to get attention", maybe one should ask, "what is this person in need of that is driving them to make such poor decisions in terms of getting the attention of others"

If a young girl thinks she needs to cut herself to get attention, do you not think this is the definition of a psychological problem?

however, this "attention seeking" behaviour is at odds with suicide and self harm research. Non-fatal self-harm (some eating disorders included) is normally associated with a perception of control over one's life, and are almost always done in such a way that the individual can hide it from others. People will cut arms, legs or other body parts they can hide with clothing, or bulimics will do everything they can to attempt to look normal to the world. In these cases, the last thing they want it other people involved in their condition, because that reduces the control they feel it gives them.

In suicidal cases, one of the most confusing signs someone is going to kill themselves is a sudden positive change in mood. A person will be happy, wish you well on your way to work, promise to meet for lunch, etc. They do this because they know people would try to stop them from killing themselves, so they overcompensate, and do everything possible to put forth the image that they are at no risk at all.

so, either "attention seeking" is symptomatic of other much deeper psychological issues, or it is a myth.

otherwise, the way you are using it, it is an attempt in some way to "blame the victim".

Originally posted by inimalist
attention seeking behaviour of this type is a telltale sign that someone has some type of psychological issue. It could be either depression or mania, but both are incredibly dangerous for an individual

rather than chastising someone for "trying to get attention", maybe one should ask, "what is this person in need of that is driving them to make such poor decisions in terms of getting the attention of others"

If a young girl thinks she needs to cut herself to get attention, do you not think this is the definition of a psychological problem?

however, this "attention seeking" behaviour is at odds with suicide and self harm research. Non-fatal self-harm (some eating disorders included) is normally associated with a perception of control over one's life, and are almost always done in such a way that the individual can hide it from others. People will cut arms, legs or other body parts they can hide with clothing, or bulimics will do everything they can to attempt to look normal to the world. In these cases, the last thing they want it other people involved in their condition, because that reduces the control they feel it gives them.

In suicidal cases, one of the most confusing signs someone is going to kill themselves is a sudden positive change in mood. A person will be happy, wish you well on your way to work, promise to meet for lunch, etc. They do this because they know people would try to stop them from killing themselves, so they overcompensate, and do everything possible to put forth the image that they are at no risk at all.

so, either "attention seeking" is symptomatic of other much deeper psychological issues, or it is a myth.

otherwise, the way you are using it, it is an attempt in some way to "blame the victim".

we may disagree on much, but that's a good post mate.

it is my day job, lol

Talking about killing yourself can be a sign of attention-seeking.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Talking about killing yourself can be a sign of attention-seeking.

sure, but thinking one needs to resort to such measures to get attention is indicative of some underlying issues.

Definitely. Still have no compassion for them, but I can't deny they have a problem.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well the environment and how you were raised does play a role. In this case it wouldn't be the law as much though as personal influence and tradition. Personal influence and tradition may play a role in standard decision making; If everybody around you buys a particular brand of food or drives in a particular manner, that will inevitably shape your own behavior and your perceptions of the world in regards to food choice and driving style.

We can't equate suicide to regular, every day decision making however. The whole process of deciding to end your own life is an incredibly personal one that seems to defy normative behavior as dictated by society.

Originally posted by Existere
Personal influence and tradition may play a role in standard decision making; If everybody around you buys a particular brand of food or drives in a particular manner, that will inevitably shape your own behavior and your perceptions of the world in regards to food choice and driving style.

We can't equate suicide to regular, every day decision making however. The whole process of deciding to end your own life is an incredibly personal one that seems to defy normative behavior as dictated by society.

Exactly, damn it's like a night of excellent posts in the GDF wtf!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Definitely. Still have no compassion for them, but I can't deny they have a problem.

well, that is a profound statement about yourself that you have no compassion for someone with a severe mental health issue...

Don't take it to mean that I target solely them for dispassion. My umbrella covers a lot.

http://southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com/shared/sps/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/import/season_08/sp_0805_07_v6.jpg

Screw that, smoking's for conformists.

No suicide is not cowardly nor is it really brave, for those who call it cowardly they have never been "there" and are trying to deduce what it would feel alike to, theres levels of being upset about something and then theres depression far above it. I would imagine that being suicidal however can push people into more action than anything, having the wish to kill yourself day in day out may push you into eventually doing something about it although not everyone can get a gun or simply calculate coldly what they need to die and then do it because human beings are also creatures of instinct not to mension can covet hope even if it does not exist.

Also as to it being selfish, that depends on how you look at it and depends on person to person. Selfish is not having consideration for others but for example if you are in an extreme amount of pain sometimes death is the only option you can percieve but you can indeed consider others concering it and the pain they may feel. You cant simply assume however that your suffering will be overshadow by theirs at your death, some people cna cope far more than others not because their stronger but because of their outlook on life. "ignorence is bliss" works well here, in that if you took inhabitants of extremely poor countries/tribes who die of famine and disease they live with it. They continue on and they can live happy lives and aspire to education but if you grab a young teen from London or New york and put them in the same situation of even someone younger than them they would break down since they cannot face something at the drop of a coin.

Outlook on life itself is what imo governs how suicide should be percieved. You cannot judge someone as a coward simply because you lack understanding on their motives, background etc. Brave soldiers who have fought in war could indeed decide on suicide to end pain either physical or emotional but theyve seen far more pain than you could likely ever take.

Originally posted by inimalist
well, that is a profound statement about yourself that you have no compassion for someone with a severe mental health issue...

The boy is clever!

Originally posted by inimalist
attention seeking behaviour of this type is a telltale sign that someone has some type of psychological issue. It could be either depression or mania, but both are incredibly dangerous for an individual

rather than chastising someone for "trying to get attention", maybe one should ask, "what is this person in need of that is driving them to make such poor decisions in terms of getting the attention of others"

If a young girl thinks she needs to cut herself to get attention, do you not think this is the definition of a psychological problem?

however, this "attention seeking" behaviour is at odds with suicide and self harm research. Non-fatal self-harm (some eating disorders included) is normally associated with a perception of control over one's life, and are almost always done in such a way that the individual can hide it from others. People will cut arms, legs or other body parts they can hide with clothing, or bulimics will do everything they can to attempt to look normal to the world. In these cases, the last thing they want it other people involved in their condition, because that reduces the control they feel it gives them.

In suicidal cases, one of the most confusing signs someone is going to kill themselves is a sudden positive change in mood. A person will be happy, wish you well on your way to work, promise to meet for lunch, etc. They do this because they know people would try to stop them from killing themselves, so they overcompensate, and do everything possible to put forth the image that they are at no risk at all.

so, either "attention seeking" is symptomatic of other much deeper psychological issues, or it is a myth.

otherwise, the way you are using it, it is an attempt in some way to "blame the victim".

I am not blaming the victim at all.And I argee with what you are saying.I also want to add that person might not be in the right state of mind when they are planning it.
Also what they must think to themselves is that there is always tomorrow or next week that there promblem may be better.Either way it is never the right way to handle your promblems.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I am not blaming the victim at all.And I argee with what you are saying.I also want to add that person might not be in the right state of mind when they are planning it.
Also what they must think to themselves is that there is always tomorrow or next week that there promblem may be better.Either way it is never the right way to handle your promblems.

How are your promblems Jackie? Bless you

i will say online losers attempt it.just dam.

Originally posted by bookcastle
i will say online losers attempt it.just dam.

Learn to spell bookcastle.

I truly hate this custom of killing ourselves as my brother also suffering from the same. i wish there would not any thing like this.

Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
I think suicide can be a very selfish act, if you have loved ones.

It can be justifiable, even assisted, if someone has a terminal illness and they are suffering.

I kinda have a different view on this now.

Example 1 "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

Response: Not necessarily, there are all kinds of situations one cannot get out of, terminal illness, long term incarceration for something they didn't do (or did do), extreme debt (economic slavery) that has no end in sight, literally all kinds of things.

Example 2 "Suicide is selfish"

Response: Yes it is, but who is being selfish, the person killing themselves causing grief to their loved ones, or their loved ones who want them to live and suffer. Clinical help doesn't always work and nut houses are horrible places.

Just a thought

I'll add it's easy to judge someone but you simply don't know someone's state of mind when they kill themselves

Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
I kinda have a different view on this now.

Example 1 "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

Response: Not necessarily, there are all kinds of situations one cannot get out of, terminal illness, long term incarceration for something they didn't do (or did do), extreme debt (economic slavery) that has no end in sight, literally all kinds of things.

Example 2 "Suicide is selfish"

Response: Yes it is, but who is being selfish, the person killing themselves causing grief to their loved ones, or their loved ones who want them to live and suffer. Clinical help doesn't always work and nut houses are horrible places.

Just a thought Sometimes it's just a choice, look at Hemmingway, Bourdain, Williams or a billion others, as people can't live their lives to please others, neither can they choose life to please others. You always have the choice to leave anything and that includes living.

I heard that it's painless, brings on many changes, and I could take or leave it if I please.

It's a horrible movie.

I talked about this subject often with a friend who was obsessed with what he'd do, if he ended up a cripple in a wheelchair, on life support, unable to check out even if he wanted to.


I was sympathetic, in the sense that I well understood his concerns. No one wanted to live as nursing home or home care people do.



On the other hand, this same friend eventually started peeing into snapple bottles and leaving them around the house.



So, my conclusion is that yes, there are cases where people being kept alive is cruelty incarnate.


In most cases though, some people simply need help. A young, healthy teen choosing to end his/her life, for example, is not something I can simply say "Well, it was his/her choice."

I'm in favor of assisted suicide for people who are in too much pain to function and meds won't help.

Originally posted by cdtm
On the other hand, this same friend eventually started peeing into snapple bottles and leaving them around the house.

was he a fan of jordan peterson and frog memes?

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
was he a fan of jordan peterson and frog memes?


Think seedier. Think less respectable.


Think Quagmire, with less scruples.

backfire?