Dante (DMC) vs. Carnifex (40k)

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NemeBro
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n525/thomas-turbando/Dante_4.png

vs.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/Llez_01/Carnifex.jpg

The Carnifex is armed with two scything talons and a Venom Cannon, as seen in the picture.

Dante is DMC4.

Just randomly decided to try this thread out, basically, speed and skill vs. strength and endurance. Also to give BloodRain a 40k thread he can try his hand in debating in.

I have little doubt that Shin can provide more Carnifex feats than I can, so will allow him to do so.

ScreamPaste
You dick, you know I lost my codices, lol.

That said, Carnifexen are known to be incredibly durable, I'm honestly not sure Dante can hurt it. They can also regenerate rapidly, depending on the fex, not sure if you're allowing a regenfex.

Carnifex are known for things like smashing clear through fortifications, ripping apart the adamantium hulls of tanks, toppling wraithbone spires, and shrugging off small arms fire. The 5th ed codex specifically mentions a carnifex surviving on a planet that had been subject to exterminatus and was rapidly healing in a hybernative state. They dropped a cyclonic torpedo on it.

I'd love for this Carnifex to have been Old One Eye. But alas and such.

According to Lexicanum, the any vehicle less than a super heavy tank has no chance whatsoever of surviving a Carnifex's charge. And even those fare poorly. That bodes well for it's strength.

As for smarts? Dante may finally be up against an opponent with less wit than himself. Without the guidance of the hive mind a Carnifex basically turns into a PMSing godzilla and just goes around breaking shit until it's hungry, then it breaks shit so it can eat it. haermm

As for durability? Well, according to Lexicanum, Scout Sergeant Tellion of the Ultramarines could -not- pierce Old One Eye's hide, OOE is a Carnifex. It doesn't state how Tellion attempted it on Lexicanum, but it does say OOE tore apart Tellion's squad, meaning he was probably pretty close. He was probably being shot at and stabbed/slashed at all at once. The only thing that saved Tellion himself is pulling a very lucky shot into the one wound on Old One Eye that had never healed, his lost eye.

IE... Not sure Dante can hurt a Carnifex, since Tellion had to shoot one where it was already wounded.

I vote the Carnifex smashes things until Dante gets tired, and then smashes him, too. The fact it has a venom cannon bodes well, too. Dante's cocky, swatting bullets out of the air and such. Trying that with the projectile from one of these will get him smeared across three provinces. >=D

TheGoldenSpy
damn those things are scary

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
damn those things are scary And awesome. Tyranid fluff is cool as shit. (Unless Cruddace writes it)

ares834
Hey ScreamPaste, could a typical Carnifex match a typical Daemon Prince?

NemeBro
There is nothing wrong with Cruddace's fluff.

-Pr-
Fluff Carnifex is going to do a lot of damage. I just wonder if it can take on a devil form Dante.

NemeBro
Originally posted by ares834
Hey ScreamPaste, could a typical Carnifex match a typical Daemon Prince? The answer is no.

A Carnifex might physically be able to best a Daemon Prince, maybe, but a Daemon Prince is much more than a physical combatant.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by NemeBro
There is nothing wrong with Cruddace's fluff. Ymgarl Genestealers. Originally posted by ares834
Hey ScreamPaste, could a typical Carnifex match a typical Daemon Prince? Probably not. A carnifex sending a daemon prince back to the warp isn't out of the question, though, imho. I don't have my codices available to really compare them featwise, but I know that overall a Daemon prince is more powerful.

ares834
Awesome, thanks both of you.

cool_ghost
Dante has speed and skill, but he is fairly strong too, I think you forget that.

He stopped saviour in DMC 4, which is one of his best strength feats, and even being hollow saviour is still massive and easily was tons.

As to this carnifex hitting dante, I doubt thats going to happen. Dante is too fast and before the laser cannon can be pointed at him we would be in a different spot.

Would this dinosaur be able to take direct shots from pandora? Its missles and lasers, and what if dante tried impaling him? Dante has immense strength.... I dont know how strong this Scout Sergeant Tellion is, but you stated, scream, that he could not pierce his hide. Unless this Scout Sergeant Tellion is strong enough to stop a moving object of at least 100,000 pounds (and im sure thats being generous of the saviours weight) then he is not as strong as dante.

It all comes down to how "durable" this carnifex is, I couldn't tell because I have no idea of who these people are that test his durability. Can someone tell me if he can tank multiple lasers and missles from pandora?

Edit: and thats not even dante in devil trigger

NemeBro
The Carnifex's best strength feat is the ability to topple over massive Wraithbone spires by pushing, basically knocking over a solid skyscaper constructed out of a material more durable than ceramite, which is itself much more durable than, well, really just about any metal IRL, better than any we can efficiently use.

Dante is strong, but the Carnifex is much, much stronger.

And remember, the Carnifex can attempt to get into melee while also firing its Venom Cannon.

Telion probably wasn't using a blade, only an idiot or a Greater Daemon tries to melee a Carnifex. He was probably using his modified heavy bolter.

I think Dante can probably cut the Carnifex, personally, but not enough to really do much damage per hit.

The Scenario
Originally posted by cool_ghost
Would this dinosaur be able to take direct shots from pandora? Its missles and lasers, and what if dante tried impaling him? Dante has immense strength.... I dont know how strong this Scout Sergeant Tellion is, but you stated, scream, that he could not pierce his hide. Unless this Scout Sergeant Tellion is strong enough to stop a moving object of at least 100,000 pounds (and im sure thats being generous of the saviours weight) then he is not as strong as dante.

It all comes down to how "durable" this carnifex is, I couldn't tell because I have no idea of who these people are that test his durability. Can someone tell me if he can tank multiple lasers and missles from pandora?


Well, let me say it like this: The two most well known weapons of the Imperium are Lasguns and Bolters. The Lasgun is a laser weapon that is capable of blasting through multiple layers of concrete. It's also pretty famous for being one of the weakest weapons in 40K, and would basically bounce off of a Carnifex. The Bolter is a semiautomatic/automatic armor piercing rocket launcher. It's designed to pierce the target and then explode. Carnifex's, again, tend to laugh at these.

So, in short, Carnifex's are all but immune to lasers and missiles, or at least those that are man-portable.

TheGoldenSpy
Dante sure has trouble hurting things around here.

Nephthys
You wouldn't think it considering the overpowered shit he does.

The Scenario
I don't think Pandora would do the job, is all. I'm reasonably certain that Dante could damage the Carnifex in melee, though. And if what BloodRain says about Dante is true, his mach 15 speed would dance circles around the thing.

CosmicComet
I think he said Mach 30.

ScreamPaste
Old One Eye got close enough to rip his squad apart, me thinks it's hard to outrun a charging carnifex. /Shrug.

He'd need one hell of a good feat to be able to actually impale a carnifex. The entire crux of this thread seems to be "can Dante actually hurt it?"

The Carnifex comes from a universe of stronger enemies with monomolecular melee weapons and hilariously overpowered ranged weapons and functions as a heavy assault tank. Dante using some of his higher end DT stuff might be able to wound the fex, but actually putting it down seems out of the question to me, to be honest. Getting into melee range only puts Dante at risk of being caught by a flailing limb of the pissed off carnifex and being neatly bisected.

It's really a match of endurance. He either gets tired before he puts it down and gets crushed, or he wittles it down little by little death of a thousand cuts style.

CosmicComet
I feel like supporting Dante for a change of pace.

I might have to read up more on this nifty Carnifex creature.

NemeBro
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Old One Eye got close enough to rip his squad apart, me thinks it's hard to outrun a charging carnifex. /Shrug.

Telion wears easily maneuverable Scout Armour, and is faster than a Carnifex.

Also, uh, you can use a Heavy Bolter from point blank.

cool_ghost
Originally posted by NemeBro
The Carnifex's best strength feat is the ability to topple over massive Wraithbone spires by pushing, basically knocking over a solid skyscaper constructed out of a material more durable than ceramite, which is itself much more durable than, well, really just about any metal IRL, better than any we can efficiently use.

Dante is strong, but the Carnifex is much, much stronger.

And remember, the Carnifex can attempt to get into melee while also firing its Venom Cannon.

Telion probably wasn't using a blade, only an idiot or a Greater Daemon tries to melee a Carnifex. He was probably using his modified heavy bolter.

I think Dante can probably cut the Carnifex, personally, but not enough to really do much damage per hit.

Yea im sure dante, while not doing critical damage, would be able to atleast cut him, with the strength feats he has.

And knowing this, I doubt dante would be hit by carnifex.... he can easily move fast enough to get close up, cut it, move out of the way, and repeat. That would be no problem for Dante. Also, any damage he does take can be regen in devil trigger. And since you made the thread, what weapons/abilities can dante use? Just the ones from DMC4?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Old One Eye got close enough to rip his squad apart, me thinks it's hard to outrun a charging carnifex. /Shrug.

He'd need one hell of a good feat to be able to actually impale a carnifex. The entire crux of this thread seems to be "can Dante actually hurt it?"

The Carnifex comes from a universe of stronger enemies with monomolecular melee weapons and hilariously overpowered ranged weapons and functions as a heavy assault tank. Dante using some of his higher end DT stuff might be able to wound the fex, but actually putting it down seems out of the question to me, to be honest. Getting into melee range only puts Dante at risk of being caught by a flailing limb of the pissed off carnifex and being neatly bisected.

It's really a match of endurance. He either gets tired before he puts it down and gets crushed, or he wittles it down little by little death of a thousand cuts style.

1. I strongly doubt the carnifex would ever touch him. Dantes strength is debatable, but his speed is not. He is too swift, to quick, too fast, even if he got close in I really, really doubt carnfiex can hit him with a "flailing limb". And dante could just aim for vital spots, I really doubt it would take a thousand cuts to the neck to down the carnifex. maybe on the arm or chest, but not the neck. What about just aiming for the eyes and waiting for it to turn blind? or maybe Cut repeatedly the achilles tendon... Until it cant walk.


2. Your right, its going to come down to endurance. But I still cant see carnifex hitting dante, unless dante is so gassed out that he cant move.

ScreamPaste
Here's the thing though; Dante even wounding the neck is debatable, and he's not the only one who heals rapidly. He's also possessed of finite vigor, eventually he's just not going to be fit enough to avoid being crushed.

Let's not forget either that the Carnifex has a venom cannon. Shots from a venom cannon shoot crystalised poison with enough force to cave in the sides of warhammer tanks. To put this in perspective, a laser weapon that can punch through two meters or concrete can only leave tidy black marks on ceramite, let alone the adamantium plates of some of the heavier vehicles. The carnifex itself is also extremely durable, that same adamantium being laced into its' tusks and carapace, it can survive on a planet that is having it's surface burnt away. (Albeit with injury) It laughs at small arms fire and melee attacks from weapons with an edge so sharp it's only a molecule wide. The weapons used to take down carnifexen typically have disruption fields or other power sources.

The thing is, yes, Dante will be hard to tag, but he's got to spend a long time taking big risks to down the carnifex. All it takes is for him to get caught between it's arms once. One of those thousand times he goes in to try and tap it on the neck, if those arms close behind him before he lands back on the ground to run away, he's utterly knackered.

I really wish I still had my codices to bring more feats. erm We know atleast that Carnifex require an extremely substantial amount of punishment to put down. I'm simply not sure Dante can put it out before he gets caught. That's a matter of time.

And his regen is honestly moot here, if the Carnifex does tag him once, no amount of regen will save him from what comes next. The slightest touch of it's claws could easily tear a limb from him. That'd hold him still long enough for a second hit. The second will be messier.

Also, depending on the carnifex, simply standing near it could kill him. Many spew toxic miasma from the spore chimneys on their backs, or are covered in spines that can explode outward on command (an easy way to tag Dante as it's omnidirectional) or both. I doubt Nemebro is letting the carnifex have these, though. They'd be nice.

Worse still, Dante is cocky. All it takes is him trying to lock swords or deflect a projectile once and he's spread across three provinces and it's no one's fault but his own.

Burning thought
Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, let me say it like this: The two most well known weapons of the Imperium are Lasguns and Bolters. The Lasgun is a laser weapon that is capable of blasting through multiple layers of concrete. It's also pretty famous for being one of the weakest weapons in 40K, and would basically bounce off of a Carnifex. The Bolter is a semiautomatic/automatic armor piercing rocket launcher. It's designed to pierce the target and then explode. Carnifex's, again, tend to laugh at these.

So, in short, Carnifex's are all but immune to lasers and missiles, or at least those that are man-portable.

Wrong, read warriors of ultramar. A carnifex gets its head blown off by a Guardsmen with a missle launcher. Further, earlier I belive its eyes were melted by a las rifle.

onto the thread though, I dont think Dante has the power capable of actually destroying the Carnifex due to the fact it is very durable and powerful. If it gets a single hit on Dante he dies, of course its slow nature may mean this is difficult to do. Dantes only got speed on his side here, you may be able to reach to one of Dantes large weapons from pandora doing damage but their hard to gauge and mostly featless.

BloodRain
:I Such a cute lil fella...


Right, cousin site and wiki are near useless for this thing and the 40K lore (LORRRREE!!!!!over) is way to large to find things.. S'ho...

-Is this Scout guy strong or something and is there any way we can know what he used?

-How strong is this bolter thing?

-Do we actually have a durability feat for these things or would it just be bolter level?

-How big is the spire? Already sure that its stronger then Dante but wanna see if the difference is more GuyVsBoxer or GuyVsAsteroid..

-How different is the toughness of its flesh to its armour plates, and which of the two are the things above hitting? Somewhat guessing that its flesh isnt far from whatever that Marine fired as it may have been a wound but it was still its flesh.


If the things strength is still at a level where Dante's Royalguard can still work it'll greatly help with that endurance situation as it can be used to heal himself. And if getting through the Carnifex hide is an issue then a mix of DT, Gauntlets and Yamato may help close the gap and get some more damage off.
Was said that some cuts off, with his speed any strength upgrades theres gonna be some good damage appearing. Add to the fact that itll take more than luck and probability for Carni to tag Dante due to both its speed, brains and wild behavior.



All of this skepticism is thrown out the window if....


....^this is true confused

Burning thought
Yes, but I dont have the page number on hand right now. Captain uriel ventris has his life saved by the Guardsmen.

RE: Blaxican
The Lasgun has the penetrating power and wounding power of a modern day handgun bullet, technically less since it tends to cauterize wounds and prevent people from bleeding out.

Don't let anyone or any descriptions tell you otherwise. Literally, all proof points to the contrary of it having some amazing stopping power.

NemeBro
Originally posted by BloodRain -Is this Scout guy strong or something and is there any way we can know what he used?

I decided to dig up the actual weapon used to put out Old One Eye's eye.

It was a Plasma Gun, a weapon that fires superheated plasma hotter than the sun, that can burn through Power Armour as though it were paper. OOE survived.



It can punch through steel easily, and basically is a fully automatic RPG that fires a hypersonic missile that is set to explode after penetration (Or on impact if it can't penetrate).



One has survived Exterminatus. Which translates to in this case having all the oxygen on a planet ignited, glassing the planet and cooking it for about a month. Granted, it was badly injured.



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:1craftlugganath.jpg

Those are wraithbone spires. Admittedly it is hard for me to get a sense of scale, because I'm not sure what kind of ship that is.



The eye is the only weak point on a Carnifex. Other than that, the entire thing is heavily armoured, it is designed to me a living battering ram by the Tyranid Hive Mind.



I think I should probably shed some light onto this.

Krak Missiles are able to destroy massive Dark Eldar spires.

Aka these:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RfD80Ww88ew/TUwcrLVtUiI/AAAAAAAABGk/t1xwHkAg-zc/s1600/350px-Commorragh.jpg

NemeBro
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The Lasgun has the penetrating power and wounding power of a modern day handgun bullet, technically less since it tends to cauterize wounds and prevent people from bleeding out.

Don't let anyone or any descriptions tell you otherwise. Literally, all proof points to the contrary of it having some amazing stopping power. Where did you get this from?

RE: Blaxican
That there are multiple instances of people surviving after being shot in the throat, in the stomach, the chest, and everywhere else that doesn't cause instant death like the head. The fact that people have used things like fallen trees, sandbags, and hills as effective cover.

If you want sources, read Gaunt's Ghosts 1-14, and Ciaphas Cain 1-6. Literally, every single written media that has ever involved lasgun fire fights, depicts the lasgun's effectiveness as pretty similar to that of modern day guns.

Burning thought
Almost everything nemebro posts to scale something as impressive often comes after "massive" or "huge", when smaller surface areas increase pressure, not large ones therefore not everything huge is neceserily durable. Especially now were talking about alien materials that are harder to gauge so I hope they have some gaugable feats.

That said, ive read enough to know from my knowledge of DMC (DMC1-4 PS games) that hes going to have trouble doing damage and taking it, its only his speed that may aid him here. Also Krak missles are apprently used for destroying tanks, like Lemen russ battletanks although they seem to die to several forces in the Ultramines omnibus.

Oh and the page for Carnifex vs missle launcher wielding IG is page 420, the guardsman goes by the name of pavel.

Also what states that plasma weapons are hotter than the sun? also this may be misleading, since a lightning bolt is hotter than the surface of the sun, but its fraction of a second of life means it does little. Not that this is important since none here have them.

Also Blaxican is right, the basic lasgun, pistol etc are of near effectiveness on normal men as bullets. Dont forget, Guardsmen are not heavily armoured.

NemeBro
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
That there are multiple instances of people surviving after being shot in the throat, in the stomach, the chest, and everywhere else that doesn't cause instant death like the head. The fact that people have used things like fallen trees, sandbags, and hills as effective cover.

If you want sources, read Gaunt's Ghosts 1-14, and Ciaphas Cain 1-6. Literally, every single written media that has ever involved lasgun fire fights, depicts the lasgun's effectiveness as pretty similar to that of modern day guns. Lasguns can penetrate power armour if it hits a weak spot, like the back or side of the knee, and it is consistently stated in studio fluff to be capable of blowing off limbs, or penetrating two meters of concrete, and in all books I have read it's easily capable of decapitating a human with a single shot, or blowing limbs off. Eisenhorn shows this a few times. Actually, Eisenhorn has half his forearm blown off by a laspistol in a short story, even while armoured (Not sure if it was Flak Armour or Carapace, probably Carapace).

Cover isn't just for blocking enemy fire, it's also for obscuring vision.

Also, context would be nice. Not going to drop everything I'm doing to read 20 books. Because I'm busy reading three. estahuh

Burning thought
Eisenhorn you say? I have the book of that name, with the 3 stories, Xeno,s herecticus etc. What page does he get shot?

Also, this sort of devalues power armour a little if it can be pierced by lasguns which can only knock heads off.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
Almost everything nemebro posts to scale something as impressive often comes after "massive" or "huge", when smaller surface areas increase pressure, not large ones therefore not everything huge is neceserily durable. Especially now were talking about alien materials that are harder to gauge so I hope they have some gaugable feats.

Wraithbone is much more durable than even ceramite. Wraithguards and Wraithlords are made of it, Wraithguards can soak up a great deal of "small arms fire" and be just peachy, whereas a Wraithlord is completely immune to it.



The Leman Russ is an average tank. Though it's still very durable, obviously. Krak Missiles can kill Space Marines. Who can weather orbital bombardment from Barrage Bombs.



I actually downloaded the Ultramarines Omnibus not long ago, will read eventually.



Sorry, misremember, it's compared to simply a "tiny sun." And actually, a plasma bolt isn't just some ball of superheated awesome, it actually converts its target into superheated plasma, breaking you down and melting you.



Flak armour is actually pretty decent by modern standards.

But when your enemies wield fully automatic RPGs, plasma guns, hypersonic monomolecular shuriken, and sub-atomic vacuum cleaners as their basic weaponry, it only looks bad.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
Eisenhorn you say? I have the book of that name, with the 3 stories, Xeno,s herecticus etc. What page does he get shot?

Also, this sort of devalues power armour a little if it can be pierced by lasguns which can only knock heads off. It's actually from a short story between Xenos and Malleus, which is in the Omnibus.

And I have it online, can't give you a page number anyway lol.

Considering Power Armour can withstand orbital bombardments and Warpfire bombs that destroy the largest Librarium outside of Sol... Not really.

ArtificialGlory
There are different types of lasguns. The ordinary ones, Hotshot lasguns, Hellfire(or however the hell they're called) lasguns, laspistols, etc. Some of them are obviously more powerful than others.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro
It's actually from a short story between Xenos and Malleus, which is in the Omnibus.

And I have it online, can't give you a page number anyway lol.

Considering Power Armour can withstand orbital bombardments and Warpfire bombs that destroy the largest Librarium outside of Sol... Not really.


Again, orbital bombardment is over a large area. Also unless you tell me a magma bomb fired from a Space marine cruiser hit directly on the armour and he got up, then yes. Theres a big difference between being directly hit by a bomb from a cruiser and being at ground zero and simply being in the bombardment where you may simply be in the blast radius.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
Again, orbital bombardment is over a large area. Also unless you tell me a magma bomb fired from a Space marine cruiser hit directly on the armour and he got up, then yes. Theres a big difference between being directly hit by a bomb from a cruiser and being at ground zero and simply being in the bombardment where you may simply be in the blast radius. Barrage Bombs can take down the shields of a starship in space, and do damage to the ship itself.

And Ahriman's Warpfire Bomb hit the Marines directly. The Guardsmen with the Marines were completely incinerated instantly. Power Armour held.

Stop talking about shit like "surface area" as though it makes a real difference.

BloodRain
Minisun or whatever, Im thinking Ifrit can cover this heat.


..Any more physical durability feats? Being set on fire doesn't tell me much. So far all I know is that they can


Why is this verse so hard to get feats on? >: Ballpark figure will be kewl.


Can you be sure that its only the eyes and not the rest of the flesh? That I can see nothing says where they took these strikes.


But if BT's right about that missile launcher, and unless that missile has some massive power on it some of Pandora's shots could match.

Burning thought
So? A lot of things can knock out shields, and starships get ruined in the "warriors of ultramar" vs the Tyranids shields or no.

So this is heat, not pressure necesserily when you say incinerated and thats not saying much, Guardsman hardly wear more than modern soldiers of today.

it does make a difference, if a bomb spreads its blast power over an area of a few miles, the force is disapated as it goes out. Hence why bombs have a much higher kill rate in the center than as you go further out. Even you can understand how a magma bomb from the Vae Victus hitting the planet created a vast crator on a bunker, using several shots it dug deep but again, still a crator. Just like most weapons, a crator is formed because the deeper "higher pressure" forces in the center push the ground/materials down hence giving a dish shape because the lower forces on the outer rims do not do the same.

Now if these marines were simply in the middle of an explosion, their not ncesserily taking all the force its capable of since other surfaces around also share in that force.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Minisun or whatever, Im thinking Ifrit can cover this heat.



Why is this verse so hard to get feats on? >: Ballpark figure will be kewl.



lol on ifrit covering "mini sun" temperatures.


Because its a table top game, therefore most of its feats come from books which are not always easy to gauge feats from or more importantly, display feats from.

ScreamPaste
Total immunity to 40k level 'small' arms fire. This means ruotinely shrugging off hypersonic armour piercing explosives on rapidfire and their heavier variants.

Tellion with his modified heavy bolter could not even hurt Old One Eye until he shot it in an already open wound.

Also: Is a little more significant than being set on fire. :P

Imagine something strong enough to casually push over small sky scrapers. Now those skyscrapers are solid, and made entirely out of a material stronger than even ceramite, which you should be familiar with now.

IIRC, the ceramite plates on space marine armour are 5mm thick. These plates allow marines ot withstand orbital bombardments and shrug off hypersonic armour piercing explosives, as well as withstand superhumans wielding monomolecular edged chainsaw swords, ect.

Imagine a sky scraper made of something better than that. Also, the picture Nemebro posted is from a craftworld, basically a floating megacity of space elves. Ballpark level is "wut", lol. Hard to legitimately quantify, but easy to look at and go "Yeeep..."

Carnifexen are covered in an exo-skeleton like an insect. The flesh is all protected by it, this is why Sergeatn Tellion had to shoot into an open wound to even hurt one.

NemeBro
Originally posted by BloodRain
Minisun or whatever, Im thinking Ifrit can cover this heat.

Lol. What makes you think that?



You need a better feat than "survived planet glassing for a month"? erm You're not usually this obtuse.



Well the ship would be, assuming it's only used for planetary action and not a starship, about 60 or so meters wide. Though it varies depending on the ship.



The eye. no expression

Old One Eye was only shot in the eye with a Plasma Pistol, and did not die.

Before it was incapacitated with a hit in the eye, it was weathering all other assaults, though it does not specify what was used (Though it did say only their strongest weapons could wound it).



Did you miss the starship that was smaller than all the spires on that section of Commorragh?

In 40k, a starship ranges between 3-12 kilometers on average (Though in some cases they can be bigger, mostly when speaking of Necron tech).

In fact, a Space Marine Strike Cruiser is definitely much smaller than the spires of the Dark Eldar the Krak Missiles sent tumbling, a Strike Cruiser ranges between 4-8 miles long IIRC.

TheGoldenSpy
Is a carnifex a common expendable creature or a unique boss type enemy?

NemeBro
The Tyranids breed Carnifexes by the millions.

There are much bigger and badder Tyranids than a Carnifex.

TheGoldenSpy
So Dante would have trouble handling a common grunt enemy in 40k.

That's how you know when a series is ridiculously overpowered.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
So Dante would have trouble handling a common grunt enemy in 40k.

That's how you know when a series is ridiculously overpowered. I'm not sure "common grunt" is the right term.

Most things in 40k are nowhere near as powerful as a Carnifex, especially in melee. A Carnifex can tear Space Marines to pieces with casual ease.

The most common Tyranid organisms are Hormagaunts and Termagants, much smaller creatures who attack en masse and are only a bit more powerful than a human overall, though much stronger up close.

Though yes, there are beings that make a Carnifex look irrelevant. Titans, Super Heavies, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, etc.

cool_ghost
So the only weak (and i say weak lightly here) spot of the carnifex is its eye?

nemebro, how many shots would you say it would take dante to hurt its eye bad enough so it cant see? Or would it take none at all..


edit: And would any of pandoras forms hurt this things eye? Like its p66 omen?

BloodRain
@Scream: Tanking the bolter isnt that great if its only blasting though a few meters of metal or whatever Neme said. What I know so far is that that plasma gun has the force to damage the things. If Dante can replicate that he has a fair shot of damaging the thing. Id put money on Ifrit and his blade for that.

Still think his RG can 'possible' stand up to this things strength now that Im getting a scale of the spire. Could tank cityblock+ busting beams in the novel.

@Neme: Well without a direct statement we can only assume that the plasma gun is approaching the suns temp, thats roughly what Ifrit is too.

'Kay I not even familiar with the term Planet glassing..

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Given the rough temp that was able to shoot through OOE's eye to its brain Im positive that some Ifrit hits with rack up some nice damage, and OOE was much better at recovery then the others so it'll be painful for this guy. Still no idea where about its durability is, so how would DT, Gauntlets with Yamato fair on damaging it?

The Scenario
Planet glassing is a general sci-fi term that refers to bombing a planet until its surface turns to glass. It's like turning sand to glass on a much larger scale.

TheGoldenSpy
Yamato was stopped by a rocket launcher.

I think this creature is better suited for someone like kratos or akuma. Guys that can hit hard.

BloodRain
Nah its all about the user, Vergil didnt wanna kill her. Its been shown to stab things at least a thousand times easier then other blades.

NemeBro
Originally posted by BloodRain
@Scream: Tanking the bolter isnt that great if its only blasting though a few meters of metal or whatever Neme said. What I know so far is that that plasma gun has the force to damage the things. If Dante can replicate that he has a fair shot of damaging the thing. Id put money on Ifrit and his blade for that.

Bolters are hypersonic fully automatic armour-piercing RPGs mah boi. They make contempory defenses look like a joke.




That strength is backed up by monomolecular edged talons.



What makes you think it is sun temperature?

And Plasma weaponry is described as detonating with the "power of a small sun." The blast is also described as a "supernova." For reference, it can vaporise a Marine in full Power Armour, which can survive orbital bombardment that can level cities from Barrage Bombs, and a Warpfire Bomb left by a very powerful sorcerer that destoryed the massive Librarium of Jollana, which is essentially the size of a large city. This explosion also tore open a rift in time and space, creating a Warp Rift that allowed Daemons to pour through. Just so you know.



A bomb is dropped that incinerates the atmosphere and the planet, turning it into a marble. It glasses the surface of the planet.

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A Carnifex has some small ass eyes.

And I don't know. I don't even know what Ifrit is, lol. I don't know a whole lot about Dante. Because Dante is lame and you should be ashamed for liking him.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by NemeBro
Lasguns can penetrate power armour if it hits a weak spot, like the back or side of the knee, and it is consistently stated in studio fluff to be capable of blowing off limbs, or penetrating two meters of concrete,Provide the source for this mythical statement of it penetrating meters of concrete. I've seen it many times on forums but haven't been able to pin down where it actually comes from.


I remember that story and the subsequent blowing off of his hand. I need to reread the context before I comment further, however. uhuh

Not sure what this has to do with las guns being unable to pierce trees and dirt mounds?

**** you nigga, I am the walrus. uhuh

You have instances like Domor getting shot in the face and surviving, getting implants later. Feygor got shot in throat and survived, getting a throat implant. A few years later he was shot in the chest and lived for an hour before succumbing to his injury. Obviously, if the lasround had exploded his chest or something, he would have died on the spot. Rhen Mertt got shot in the face by a las round, and survived with an augmetic jaw. Those are ones off the top of my head that obviously would have been 100% fatal if lasgun rounds were more powerful than a modern day handgun ammo. Beyond that, it's almost a trope in Gaunt's Ghost novels for the characters to get hit in the shoulders, legs, without any serious injury as a result.

Burning thought
Originally posted by NemeBro


And I don't know. I don't even know what Ifrit is, lol. I don't know a whole lot about Dante. Because Dante is lame and you should be ashamed for liking him.


Ifrit are a pair of gauntlets, firey in nature. Their best feat is slicing the demon portals, which are large slabs of stone which would be my best description of them. Nothing on the level of the suns anything. But I dont think plasma is what your saying it is, "power of a small sun" is a vague term since how small? if its tiny then it makes sense, therefore creating little energy.

Your doing what BR whines at me for doing, using something that sounds impressive when its not, only mine is impressive on a pressure scale still when yours is vague at best and not mathmatically calcable if thats a word.

That said, plasma weapons are powerful and I still stand by my own claim that Dantes power is not enough, Kratos would be a better matchup.

Enfathiel
Is Dante allowed his time manipulations?

Demonic Phoenix
DMC 4, so no.

Also, I am now ashamed at not knowing much about Warhammer.

RE: Blaxican
99% of the things you'll hear are hearsay or exaggerations. So always ask for someone to provide sources for the stuff they say. Primary sources will be Codexes, the novels and games.

NemeBro
Don't worry Blax, I'll get you that lasgun source. estahuh

RE: Blaxican
Do I look worried, motherphucker? uhuh

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
99% of the things you'll hear are hearsay or exaggerations. So always ask for someone to provide sources for the stuff they say. Primary sources will be Codexes, the novels and games.

Exactly why I'm ashamed. Don't know whether or not I should believe half the shit Nemebro & Scream have typed up. uhuh

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Exactly why I'm ashamed. Don't know whether or not I should believe half the shit Nemebro & Scream have typed up. uhuh Actually, our feats come pretty much directly from the codices, so we're two of the ones you should. There -are- a lot of people talking out of their asses, though, who won't cite shit. Look to Factpile to find them.

Matthias Fenris
ok, ima throw my hat in here. i read early on that you guys dont seem to think a carnifex can stop a daemon prince. well. dante was able to kill demons the size of skyscrapers. beings so powerful they could create their own realities to combat in. thats like beating horus within the eye of the warp itself. so to say he couldnt harm a carnifex is sort of innane.

now dont get me wrong, i love 40k. in fact, the tyranids are outright my favorite army. but im a fan of both series. and the things dante has done in all the games. (dmc4 being set in a timeline after he kicked the ever living crap out of mundus, who was the lord of hell at the time. thats like beating up the strongest champion of chaos) if dante was to fight it without going devil trigger, i would say he couldnt stop a rampaging carnifex with scything talons and venom cannon.

and for everyone adding in the fex's regenarative abilities. it was stated at the beginning all it has is the venom cannon and scything talons. no regenerate. no bonded exoskeliton, no extra anything. pretty much one of the cheapest and weakest fexes you can draft. so.. if a fex has a hard time with a daemon prince... which dante could easily best. then the fight has to go to dante.

i do agree that his guns wouldnt do much damage, if any at all. but devil triggered demonic energy-enhanced sword strikes? yeah, he'd take that fex apart.
and i submit this.. while not as awesome by todays standards of gaming.. was pretty baoss back in the day...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qLx4BRgp3U&feature=related
mundus would, at the very least... be able to crush a daemon prince in combat. therefore, it has to go to dante...

now dante vs alucard, on the other hand.....

ScreamPaste
Was going to sleep, your post bothered me too much. >=(
Except that this is nothing at all like fighting Horus in the Eye of Terror. None of that statement makes any sense, nothing supports it. It's a 'just because'. Until those giant demons have feats putting them on the level of any primarch, let alone Horus, they're not equivalents.

Here you do it again. WHY, pray tell, is this like beating the strongest champion of Chaos? Hint: It isn't. No feat suggest it is. You're just saying this. To be blunt, being the lord of hell doesn't mean anything without proper showings of power.

Dante can best a daemon prince? You better make that thread before making the claim. Be sure to specify a Chaos god, too. daemon princes have some /very/ broken powers.

Why? A carnifex has withstood month long planetary bombardments by weapons far more destructive than Dante's strikes.
Feats or gtfo, lol.

Daemon princes are some of the most powerful daemons, second only to greater daemons. Most of the traitor primarchs became princes. Even before their transformations the primarchs made Dante pale in comparison. erm Physically capable of busting mountains, pushing over (40k scale!) sky scrapers, surviving (40k scale!) ships just kind of landing on them, ect.

All I'm trying to say is; Without feats you cannot simply equate DMC characters to daemon princes and especially not warmaster Horus.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste

Why? A carnifex has withstood month long planetary bombardments by weapons far more destructive than Dante's strikes.
Feats or gtfo, lol.

Daemon princes are some of the most powerful daemons, second only to greater daemons. Most of the traitor primarchs became princes. Even before their transformations the primarchs made Dante pale in comparison. erm Physically capable of busting mountains, pushing over (40k scale!) sky scrapers, surviving (40k scale!) ships just kind of landing on them, ect.

All I'm trying to say is; Without feats you cannot simply equate DMC characters to daemon princes and especially not warmaster Horus.

But not a missle to the head it seems.

All you keep saying is "second only" or "even more powerful than!" as if that means something also I would like quotes, page numbers or even better scans of these things because as Blax said, a lot of it can be nonsense or out of context. Dante has nothing on primarchs and such because I have doubts he can go hand to hand with a space marine Captain or the like but "busting mountains"? Ive read the Ultramarines ominbus and they worship Gulliman but nobody mentioned anything like busting mountains or such.

Matthias Fenris
sigh. its a comparison. dante was the son of the most badass demonic guy in the mythos. period. its like if you took cherubael from 40k at full strength, and said "go have twins, they're gunna be badass" .

and mundus had power enough to rip open holes in time and space, create entire realities and living beings at a whim. throwing down and destroying planetary bodies was nothing for him. nothing at all. he even corrupted and turns dantes own brother. sound similar to turning and corrupting primarchs? thats pretty powerful chaos shit right there. he even had warp-storms and elemental carnage that killed his own subordinates.

once you establish a base of powers thrown at each one, you can accurately assess whats going on. punching down mountains, and destroying entire cities sounds pretty much like that giant stone "god" in dmc4. which dante had zero issues with.

and while a carnifex is immensely badass, lets face it.. its no trygon, or bio-titan. (which, dantes been swallowed by a bio-titan sized leviathon before and killed it from the inside out, too) you guys are really selling dante too short. with his daemonic powers, hes like a powerful demon of the warp facing a carnifex. and im pretty much seeing it go this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOXq01UJBBM
vital, weak points targeted and taken out. fast, and easy. not to mention, again.. that its a basic fex. pretty much only relying on its own muscle and claws.

whereas dante can chanel his demonic powers and fire shots that rip holes in dimentions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqCFWQN7Go&feature=related

not to mention his entire fight the savior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v--J_4IBfMw
now isnt that about the size and destructive power of a war titan? which hes kinda taking apart like nothing. and thats not even tapping into his devil trigger abilities. a normal person would stand no chance of facing a fex. but you have to treat dante as you would a 40k equivalent, and you have to treat the fex as a devil may cry equivalent.

dante with his dimention shattering, dragon-throwing, (yeah, he did that in the first game, created a dragon out of demonic energy and fired it at the final boss. broke through magical barriers and did MASSIVE damage) self regenerating, demonicly psuedo-god killing powers would easily be able to stop a fex. and prolly throw out cheesey one liners and flirting with the closest adeptas sororitas while doing it.

EDIT: actually.. a more difficult fight would be dante vs a swarmlord. THAT shit would be hard to call.. though id have to say i would be in favor of the swarmlord..

and also.. the fex's arent all that indestructable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bWEz4ME-M
im pretty sure those space marine captains totally dig their power swords into its face and eye sockets to bring it down. so it DOES have weak points to be easily exploited.

Burning thought
Mundus has never destroyed a planetary body, he was a slow and fairly weak opponent, yes he made Trish but thats about the only useful thing he did that seems above the norm.

The giant stone "god" could hardly destroy mountains, it had a slowly charged beam that could burn through civilian buildings and Dante was not alone with Saviour, infact he could not barely harm it, Nero was the one who dealt with Sanctus.

Only Beowulf is extremely weak compared to a Carnifex and does not have half the resistance or power.

Your comparing Saviour to a War Titan? pff, Saviour looks like a giant humanoid of marbel, not a vast war machine with high yield weapon systems and on top of that, Dante has to attack power points on its body, so hardly "taking apart".

Exploited by a space marine captain with a power sword, not necesserily Dante with Rebellion which is not only far weaker than a PS but hes also less sturdy than a marine as well, explain to me why he cant pull his own sharp sword from his chest with ease?

Matthias Fenris
planetary bodies meaning meteors and satalites. not entire planets. and that giant stone "god" has the sheer mass and size to destroy mountains. and the slow sharge up beam that destroys buildings, isnt limited to just taking out cavilian buildings. and you know just as well as i do that dante has only ever taken two fights seriously, and was letting nero take the heroes credit. (because neros a crazy useless kid)

as for beowulf, you're forgetting hes a demon. in 40k terms, a demon that, with his energy attacks and punches, would equate to another monstrous creature easily with abilities to ignore armour saves. (at the very least)

and the power points on the savior are valid, but at the same time, war titans have been taken down with swarms of nids no more in size than hormagaunts. so their not invulnerable to scything talons and blades. so whos to say dante cant shadow of the collosus his way up a war titans body and take it apart in a similar manner? they may not have alot of weak points like the savior did, but once that energy core is breached, everything around it dies, as well as the titan. so its not outside the bounds of saying he couldnt handle it. hell, cherubael took out a chaos war titan EASILY, and in seconds. and he was defeated and bound by one psychic human, who didnt even have alpha level psyker powers.

and you're still not taking into account dantes demonic power. his sword, along with his fathers and brothers have powers within them to open and seal dimentional rifts. (which, in 40k terms says they can open and close doorways and portals into the warp) as well as project demonic power outward via energy-based attacks. how is that NOT like a powersword? and as for him not being able to pull his own sword out of himself easily, hmm. maybe it would have to do with the size of the blade? oh, and this looks pretty affortless..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_1kETIVweo
and also ALOT like a powersword.

plus, dante is durable as all hell. hes been stabbed, impaled, blasted and shredded more times than most other creatures. hell, if a space marine took as much hell as he does in any given game, (without his power armour) they would've put him in a dreadnaught.

to reasonably measure the fight, you have to look at it objectively. what can a fex kill? what can kill a fex? what has dante killed. what can kill dante? what weapons and things are in the dmc universe that are similar to the 40k universe and vice versa?

in the 40k universe, dante would be madly hunted by the inquisition as a very deadly threat from the warp. the amount of things he can do is very broken. he has swords which let him shoot thunder out of his hands and create tornados with his body, fire and wind. he can channel demonic powers through them and launch the energy through the air or ground at his enemy. he can create burning meteors of demonic power and hurl it at his enemies, and summon plumes of inferno around him. he has more than one demonic gun that chanels demonic power through it and can bounce and peirce multiple enemies at a time. he has the demonic power to slow down time to a crawl, and an armband that can stop time entirely. he can create a doppleganger of himself to attack his foe for twice the damage. he can move so fast, his body seems to blur and even teleport. and he can push off of demonic platforms in the air the manuever around. not to mention HE CAN FREAKIN FLY. hes kind of OP and more than a bit broken. and you guys arent taking that into account.

hell, im looking at my tyranid codex right now, looking over the fex stats. and the only real thing going for it isnt its "indestructability", but rather its 9 strength value. with a venom cannon means a str 10 hit. which puts it at "IMA ONE SHOT THIS *****!" area. its armour is a 2/3rds protection chance, but theres no real way its going to be able to stop getting hit. being so big and slow (its initiative is at 1, after all), it wouldnt really be able to hit dante. so you're looking at another mundus -type fight. only without all the powers and summons flying around to deal with.

Burning thought
Hes large but destroying a mountain wouldnt be easy for him, it would take him time.

But you cant really compare them ,him being a deamon does not give him the same powers as the 40k Deamons, nor does it equate their powers with him and vice versa.

Cherubael iirc did not try to kill Eisenhorn until near the end of the story though, Cherubael often toyed with him and Eisenhorn created sigils and used some of the Chaos secrets from Pontius glaw to bind Cherubael, it was not really an act purely psychic vs psychic, Cherbael is far more powerful than Dante in that regard, while Dante has to find specific weak points, if you can prove the Titans reactor is easy to destroy/get to then fair enough, otherwise your talking about Dante trying to damage the Titans armour.

The wapr is not the same as "dimentional rift" though. A power sword has a matter disruption field around it, Dantes swords are pretty much like any other sword only incredibly durable and allow him access to certain abilities. Not sure it was fairly slow, also it being electric does not make it comparable to power weapons.

I agree "without power armour" but rarely do Space marines go out without PA do they, Dante can take impalement nad such, but his flesh has never bounced something off it like armour can.

Few weapons are similiar though, take the Carnifex, apprently (Nemebro said it so I dont know if its true) Carnifex can push over skyscrapers of eldar wraithbone, thats far more power and strength than Dante can take and further the Carnifex takes on enemies on its own level like tanks and things in Warhammer 40k.

Ragni and Rudra right? these "tornados" wouldnt do much to a Carnifex though would it. of course were taking all this into account, but him flying, fireing demon guns and such are not going to help him since the Carnifex has faced more powerful guns and more powerful strikes. Nobody is argueing with Dantes speed which I agree is incredible, hence why I say if the Carnifex can hit him it would be lucky.

These numbers of gameplay from a manuel, rule 14 of the forum informs people new to the forum that we are against using gameplay mechanics like numerical values. We usually discuss things from the story like what they have taken in firepower etc in the books or games.

Dante lacks power, not speed. Carnifex has power but lacks speed, imo, time is in the Carnifexes favour if Dante has trouble harming him so "eventually" the carnifex is going to get a hit.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
DMC 4, so no.

I see. But DMC4 Dante technically is a latter version to his incarnates which did posses time-stops. So logicaly, shouldn't Dante still have Bangle of time or Chronoheart?

Burning thought
Logically yes but the thread may specify DMC 4 purely for the fact the thread creator wanted it to be only DMC4 powers and abilities. Otherwise we usually just say "Dante" on a general basis. Paste may alow all previous abilities of course.

Matthias Fenris
ill take your point about eisenhorn not being able to stand mind to mind with cherubael. but that wasnt my point. my point was that a creature that can bring down a war titan effortlessly was still beaten and bound by a mere human. and humans taking off the heads of a fex with missiles isnt outside the bounds of lore. they're NOT invincible creatures. all it takes is one good injection of metal into an eye, and through the brain to bring it down.

and ill agree that an antimatter field would be alot stronger than lightning or possibly hellfire. but when you have a sword that crackles with those things.. or can even do this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYQoNJnWELw&feature=relmfu
..then the effect it has will be the same as a power weapon. namely, killing what it stabs.

and im very iffy on one fex bringing down an entire skyscraper of wraithbone. that sounds more like trygon/mawloc/bio-titan territory. maybe multiple fexes tearing down the base of the structure, or give one fex anough time, and it'll eventually get it done, maybe.

plus.. chainswords to the face also kill fexes..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND_kvO142Aw
its about 4:00 in. generally, faces seem to be everythings weakness. and with dantes speed, im pretty sure he can get alot of sharp metal into an eye socket before the fex can hit him. or, ya know.. he can sit back, dodging venom cannon shots while he pulls out the kalina anne, or pandora and puts missiles into said face. O_o.. i still dont see it as anything too difficult for dante, based on all the other things hes killed in games and lore.

Burning thought
Not really a "mere" human but a powerful psychic with access to the Dark arts to bind said Deamon. Dante could not do the same thing, he does not know the Chaos spells or tricks to bind a deamon and his power is not enough to do what Cherubael did.

Depends on what your stabbing really, lightning and hellifre canont makup for anti-matter, which can make even the strongest adversaries in WH40k vulnerable to its attacks, I dont see how Dantes sword turning into various different weapon types can help him.

Well I dont know, nemebro has yet to provide the quote for this feat.

But a chainsword is a monomolecular blade and a Space marine is arguably stronger in power armour than Dante is, and heavier too. Also, appprently old one eye has had its eye burned out by Plasma and survived.

Not sure Kalina anne or Pandora missles are equel to the Krak missles fired by a missle launcher. Nemebro has claimed those missles are incredibly powerful. Pandora missles are of a low yield, not destroying ice and stone around their blasts, I think all of the Pandora missles combined to finish off the Deamon toads and the Deamon gate but thats it, Krak missles are apprently made for ripping open tanks, 40k tanks at that.

Matthias Fenris
its still a thing where you're comparing dante without him using his devil trigger. a dante at marvell vs capcom standards.. (which is a crazy watered down dante) and everything about dante in dmc4 was him toying around. taking nothing seriously, and not even bothering with his demonic powers. which is because he didnt need to. nero was doing all the heavy lifting while dante was sitting back and smirking, seeing what nero could do.

it seems to be the general view from you guys that all of dantes demonic powers couldnt hold a candle to demonic powers from 40k. even though its all still demonic energy. and dantes powers, in DT form come from the demon worlds very best warrior. 40k technology is greater, naturally. and his sword on its own using dantes normal strength wont do anything unless he hits an eye.

but when you add dantes demon realm powers into the mix.. (which he held himself back ALOT from in dmc4) his speed is faster, strength is greater, hes constantly regenerating, and theres alot of energy going through that blade. and the sparta blade, changing shape. (i was also trying to show you the demonic energy rushing through it) imagine he stabs the sword tip into a fex, and then it changes into spear form, impaling it like crazy. and then to scythe, shredding its organs from within.

carnifexes are still just biological creatures. they dont have supernatural abilities besides being controlled by the hive mind. so they all have the same weakness as anything else alive. namely, all the squishy vital bits like eyes, brain, and organs. so! even regular grenades going off in a fex's eye socket are going to tear the living hell out of it. and possibly kill it. even if each missile only cracks its face chitin open... it still makes the fex about as strong as a boss battle battle in game. meaning many, many, many more rockets into its face, while dodging it can still bring it down.

dantes used to facing really powerful and big things. the fex is used to being the really powerful and big thing. so. heres my last statement on my opinion.

dante without devil trigger stands no chance in hell of doing more than pissing it off. his sword and natural strength would mean nothing to it. his speed would keep him alive long enough to annoy the ever living CRAP out of it, though. which would be amusing, though fruitless.

but dante pulling his demonic powers into the mix? dead fex. boss battle style.

TheGoldenSpy
Originally posted by Enfathiel
I see. But DMC4 Dante technically is a latter version to his incarnates which did posses time-stops. So logicaly, shouldn't Dante still have Bangle of time or Chronoheart?

Naw dude. There was a part in the game where Dante has to get through lasers and dante doesn't use any of these abilities which means he lost them.

Matthias Fenris
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Naw dude. There was a part in the game where Dante has to get through lasers and dante doesn't use any of these abilities which means he lost them.

eh.. doesnt mean he lost it.. just that he didnt use it.. he likes to shows off alot. alot alot. weapons he doesnt take with him everywhere, like orbs and gems he doesnt carry with him after jobs. but powers... those stay within his blood.

TheGoldenSpy
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
eh.. doesnt mean he lost it.. just that he didnt use it.. he likes to shows off alot. alot alot. weapons he doesnt take with him everywhere, like orbs and gems he doesnt carry with him after jobs. but powers... those stay within his blood.

Quicksilver wasn't even a physical weapon, it was a power. There is no reason why he couldn't use it other than him not being able to use it anymore.

Matthias Fenris
uhh... you just agreed with what i said. thanks?

TheGoldenSpy
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
uhh... you just agreed with what i said. thanks?

No, I disagreed. Dante doesn't have his time powers in DMC4. FACT. Deal with it.

And I think Time bangle wasn't even a cannon weapon in the story.

The Scenario
I think I missed something here. Where did antimatter come from? Power weapons have a matter disruption field, which is not the same thing.

Matthias Fenris
what do you consiter story? anything in the games is open. as is the anime. as it doesnt contradict anything. meaning all items and weapons in game are there. fact is, dante in game wouldnt use quicksilver, unless it replaced a style of fighting. in dmc 4, hes using 4 out of 6 styles of fighting. he still has it, because he had it previously. he just doesnt use it.

TheGoldenSpy
The only stuff I know from DMC is from the games. I don't know if he ever used it in the anime ... and I don't really care.

All I know about the Time bangle was some secret extra item found in a bonus room that Dante never uses in cutscene. What I consider a canon power or ability is something absolutely needed to progress the game or something the player receives from an important NPC or cut scene.

And about quicksilver in DMC4... Dante needs to find a special key to a machine that slows time enough to cross a room of laser barriers.

Why in the world would he need to do that if he still had quicksilver?


If OP had just said Dante, of course he would be considered with quicksilver but in DMC4 he doesn't, so he shouldn't have it here.

Matthias Fenris
im pretty sure dante has to run the same hoops as nero had to for game balancing. not because he didnt have it. would be kind of cheap if he could just insta bypass that, wouldnt it? he could still do it, in the lore.. it would just be cheap for the games sake. its a thing of deciding how you want to have dante presented. by the lores sake of him at the time of devil may cry 4? or just the game stats of him by devil may cry 4? i believe i was already told using in game stats was out, and lore was in. so someone please make up their mind about it to i can present an acceptable case.. please?

and scen. good freakin point. power weapons, as discribed in the codex's ive read dont really specify the exact action of how it works. in fact, its quite the opposite. they specify that no-one outside of the adeptus mechanicus really understand how they work. and most power weapons are relics from the dark age of the technology. im pretty sure they cant create new power weapons anymore, as the standard construction templates for it were lost.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
its still a thing where you're comparing dante without him using his devil trigger. a dante at marvell vs capcom standards.. (which is a crazy watered down dante) and everything about dante in dmc4 was him toying around. taking nothing seriously, and not even bothering with his demonic powers. which is because he didnt need to. nero was doing all the heavy lifting while dante was sitting back and smirking, seeing what nero could do.

it seems to be the general view from you guys that all of dantes demonic powers couldnt hold a candle to demonic powers from 40k. even though its all still demonic energy. and dantes powers, in DT form come from the demon worlds very best warrior. 40k technology is greater, naturally. and his sword on its own using dantes normal strength wont do anything unless he hits an eye.

but when you add dantes demon realm powers into the mix.. (which he held himself back ALOT from in dmc4) his speed is faster, strength is greater, hes constantly regenerating, and theres alot of energy going through that blade. and the sparta blade, changing shape. (i was also trying to show you the demonic energy rushing through it) imagine he stabs the sword tip into a fex, and then it changes into spear form, impaling it like crazy. and then to scythe, shredding its organs from within.

carnifexes are still just biological creatures. they dont have supernatural abilities besides being controlled by the hive mind. so they all have the same weakness as anything else alive. namely, all the squishy vital bits like eyes, brain, and organs. so! even regular grenades going off in a fex's eye socket are going to tear the living hell out of it. and possibly kill it. even if each missile only cracks its face chitin open... it still makes the fex about as strong as a boss battle battle in game. meaning many, many, many more rockets into its face, while dodging it can still bring it down.

dantes used to facing really powerful and big things. the fex is used to being the really powerful and big thing. so. heres my last statement on my opinion.

dante without devil trigger stands no chance in hell of doing more than pissing it off. his sword and natural strength would mean nothing to it. his speed would keep him alive long enough to annoy the ever living CRAP out of it, though. which would be amusing, though fruitless.

but dante pulling his demonic powers into the mix? dead fex. boss battle style.

That does not make up for the lack of feats, also Nero impales Dante who then admits he may have underestimated him so I dont think Nero is that much below Dante to the point of being nothing but an amusement. Sure Dante toys around, but that does not mean anything unless you can show me him not toying around and doing things you belive he can do.

Their not the same demonic energy though, Dantes demonic powers allow him to fly and such yes, but Demons and the powers of Chaos can create planetwide terror, many demons like the Heart of blood from "dead sky, black sun" could leap into a vast legion of iron warriors with titans and super tanks and decimate them, cherubael as you mentioned can knock out a War titna with ease, a Titan built to take on armies or cities. Dante could never hope to defeat legions of space marines or chaos marines, or their super weapons.

If a Carnifex can take tank punishment I dont see how Dantes going to be able to pierce anywhere but its eyes, if it turns into a halberd, spear or axe w/e then its going to be using more surface area. Spardas blade is a pretty big weapon, which is a downside for surface areas.

I think his demon powers only help him so far, hes never used Demon power to penetrate something like a 40k tank, which is the Tyranids Carnifex in a whole, which is arguably far superior. In Warrios of ultramar it was a beast, even uriel ventris, captain of the space marines who had faced the nightbringer (albiest in a weaker state) was beliving it to be his last if it were not for the guardsmen with a rocket launcher.

I agree with you however that Dante, unless Screampaste forbids it should still have his time powers and any power he gained in previous games, not tools obviously since he does not carry every weapon from all the games with him at once but powers? he cant lose them logically unless the canon states it. So hes still got doppleganger and Quicker silver.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I think I missed something here. Where did antimatter come from? Power weapons have a matter disruption field, which is not the same thing.

He refered to it as antimatter field so I thought I would use his term.

ScreamPaste
Meaningless without feats.

So he made portals.
Never seen, and you mean Trish.
This made me chuckle, honestly. Since below you admit:


Except this is nothing like corrupting a Primarch for a lot of reasons, and corrupting someone doesn't automatically make you as powerful as a high end daemon.

Except that Saviour never demonstrates the power to do these things, ever. So no, it sounds nothing like Saviour at all.

Except that anything more badass than a Carnifex would be overkill, and Dante is nothing like a warp daemon. Stop baselessly comparing him to them.

Oh, cool, an enemy with no durability feats is being baselessly treated as a Carnifex's equal. It's claws are all a Carnifex needs. Taking down the 'Fex could take Dante months, if he gets tagged even once during that time it's over.

Erm, size, sure. Power? Lolno.

Dante never shatters a dimension, throwing dragons is lulz, regen isn't enough to save him, god-killing is null because that's a title that doesn't mean anything, Dante could not 'easily' stop a Fex until you come up with a destructive feat on par with it's feats in 40k.

Mother****er, the swarmlord would dismantle Dante so fast it's hilarious. He couldn't even hurt it, even your typical Hive Tyrant is really, really powerful, dude. On Iyanden even the Wraithlord and Wraithguard couldn't put one down, and they were only saved by an ancient relic weapon.

This is from RTS gameplay. no expression Lol'd, for one, even so, a Space Marine Captain taking down a fex does not allow Dante to do the same.

TheGoldenSpy
Not months. It's just not happening. If it couldn't regenerate maybe, but high durability plus regeneration is overkill.

Matthias Fenris
i was pretty sure i posted vids intailing dantes DT forms against mundus, pretty much being the only fight hes (argueably) taken seriously, and used his powers to their fullest extent. his sword slashes send energy that cut into the air far past his own reach. he can conjure and launch a giant dragon of demonic flame and magma which breaks through magical barriers and deals crazy high damage. its in game actions you as a player can do during the flying boss battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNqpzKsiurY
jump to 5:00 in.. its about there.

and he has broken down demon-enhanced tanks and choppers in dmc 2. they werent even sub-bosses to him. they just took some time to crack their shells. so argueably, he COULD penetrate tanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ke7wXnmio
about 5:15 in on that one.. the player is kind of crappy, so dont take that as a representation of dante himself.

i do realise 40k tanks are alot stronger, but again it falls into his DT state helping him bash and slice through powerful things. im still seeing coming down to a carnifex equating to a main boss on hard mode to him.. still defeatable, but able to kill him, just like anything else. toe to toe, blow for blow. dante will lose. he cant match the strenth of force, or the shrugging off of damage the fex can.

but thats not how dante fights, thats how the fex fights. dante makes sure he doesnt get hit, and will whittle it down, and DT into its weak points at the fight goes on. and even if dante gets hit. who he is and his CONSTANT impalements, and being eaten.. (it happens alot to him, and aperrently its no big deal) would only hurt him, not outright kill. and the shockwave from him going into Dt form COULD break a fex's hold on him.

and you guys keep thinking i mentioned cherubael as a representation of dantes power. i brought him up as a representation of something that killed a war titan got beat by a human. so something like a carnifex could be taken out by dante. its actually MUCH less of a power gap between dante and the fex.

its still down to.. dantes beat demons and monsters similar in strength and size to a fex. regularly. and those demons in 40k spreading planet-wide terror.. thats not each one, by itself doing that. thats them as a whole, backed by their army of cultists, daemon spawns, and sacrifices, alters. ect. his powers are COMPARABLE to them ONE on ONE.

Matthias Fenris
eh.. im speaking as someone whos played all 4 of the devil may cry games.. and has read into the lore of 40k, read alot of the books, and looked into the codex's of tyranids, IG and space marines. (specifically, black templars)

so.. everything, as i see it.. seems fair and balanced as a fan of both mythos. you can break it down how you think it is. but you cant just say "theres no way he can do anything at all to it. period" because thats just wrong. but whatever. all of your feats still have to do with humans. dante is a half demon. to equate it to 40k standards. that makes him a force of chaos. to equate a fex to devil may cry standands. hes a boss battle. if you dont compare it objectively within the terms of either mythos, then you cant compare any video-game fight.

and what thread are we in? videogame versus, right? what videogames were carnifexes in? oh right. an RTS. that let its face get sawed into by a chainsword... which killed it. which means it can be killed by sharpened metal. ergo.. swords are in. which means it is entirely possible for dante to kill it.

plus to say an imperial gaurdsmen with a rocket launcher can kill it, but a half demon whos ended other monstrous creatures cant is kind of unrealistic and biased.

Burning thought
I will reply to your post above Fenris, possibly tomorrow since I am getting tired and need some sleep, but beforehand I will agree with the sword thing being legit because iirc we usually allow quick time events in games, and tje sync kills are just as scripted as them, if not more so.

But the thing I dont agree with would be Dantes sword and strength being equel to a Space marine with a monomolecular chainsword. Thats not quite comparable.

I am still on the fence on whether or not Dante could destroy its head with his weapons, missles or swords because the missle launcher is a 40k one, meaning its designed for Warhammer armour and targets which are a great deal beyond the semi modern DMC verse.

Matthias Fenris
eh, im going to argue that its not a normal sword. being its a demon blade with its own powers. (all of dantes devil triggers change depending on his weapon, and they're all unique in games) being a blade backed by demonic energy, i dont see it not being at least as effective as a chainsword. honed edge or not. hes alot stronger than a normal human, as is evident if you played the games.

its supernatural fantasy vs super human science. and the closest thing i can measure it to is the supernatural fantasy IN 40k itself. which is chaos. so, making the connection of dantes powers within how the powers of chaos works gives you VERY good basis as to how to pit him against ANYTHING else in the 40k universe.

but im looking forward to your reply. moreso than screams, as its just coming across as loud trolling...

ScreamPaste
Damnit dude, looking cool isn't a feat. Hurts Mundus? Neat, then we need to know how durable he is. Can he survive a month of planetary bombardment? No? Then it doesn't matter.


Not unless those tanks have durability feats like 40k tanks do. Do they? No.
Then why did you even bother making the comparison?

Except Dante has never, ever been struck by something as physically strong as a Carnifex. A single strike from it would mutilate him badly, easily remove a limb, he doesn't regen fast enough to avoid a follow up, and he's never had his head removed or been torn clean in half before. A Carnifex could pulverise him.

Feats for the shockwave, or no, it can't.

A physically frail human using powerful psyker abilities on a daemon does not equate to the comparatively physically frail Dante using physical abilities on a Carnifex.

No, he has not. Carnifexen can snap wraithbone spires, wrestle with Wraithlords, crush tanks, even a super-heavy tank has little chance of surviving the charge of a Carnifex.

Feats or gtfo. Dante's powers are not comparable to those of a Great Unclean One or a Bloodthirster.

Surviving orb ital bombardment has nothing to do with humans. Fighting space marines is to fighting humans as fighting cape buffalo is to fighting stuffed animals with plush horns.



Without a strength feat it's not wrong, calling me wrong without evidence is wrong. smile

Games versus.

Originally posted by Peach
So GK and I just quickly discussed this...

For now, we'll go ahead and allow TTG-originated characters for the vs. forum here, simply because there's really nothing for tabletop on KMC.

We're also going to, if Raz returns anytime soon, see about maybe reorganizing the VG forum itself into a general gaming forum with a tabletop subforum. No promises on that one, but if we get a chance to make it happen, we'll do so.

This is an incredibly ignorant statement for a few reasons. One, RTS combat is in no way shape or form an accurate representation of combat, and every unit has synch kills. In the actual -story- portion of DoW2, the game you're trying to use a snippet of gameplay from, a solo Carnifex holds off the Force commander and three other officers with their squads, it's a boss battle.

Oh. and your sword comparison is hilarious. Rebellion isn't a chainsword, which is far from a 'sharpened piece of metal'. It's got a monomolecular edge and it's teeth spin so fast they become invisible, a chainsword is capable of making insanely clean cuts.

Oh, and it's not effective against a Carnifex. Not in the hands of normal marines, anyway.

So, in summary:
1. We are not ignoring lore in favour of a gameplay snippet.
2. Your gameplay snippet is contradicted by the story of the game it comes from.
3. Chainswords =/= pieces of sharp metal.
4. This in no way allows Dante to just walk up to a Carnifex and hit it.

Does being fired by a member of the IG suddenly lessen the power of a krak missile? You know, a heavy, anti-armour weapon?

Until those creatures are on the level of a Carnifex in durability, physical might, and lack of terrible dialogue, you need more feats, period.

The bias is trying to claim being half demon automatically makes Dante better than a krak missile because of who it's fired by. Lol.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
eh, im going to argue that its not a normal sword. being its a demon blade with its own powers. (all of dantes devil triggers change depending on his weapon, and they're all unique in games) being a blade backed by demonic energy, i dont see it not being at least as effective as a chainsword. honed edge or not. hes alot stronger than a normal human, as is evident if you played the games.

its supernatural fantasy vs super human science. and the closest thing i can measure it to is the supernatural fantasy IN 40k itself. which is chaos. so, making the connection of dantes powers within how the powers of chaos works gives you VERY good basis as to how to pit him against ANYTHING else in the 40k universe.

but im looking forward to your reply. moreso than screams, as its just coming across as loud trolling...

I have played all 4 games and I can tell you, he rarely shows strength higher than what Space marines deal with on a regular basis but thats not the point, the point is that this is a monomolecular blade, the surface area would allow it to saw through things of incredible durability anyway while the attribute of "demonic energy" is not comparable or gaugable in this extent, we only know that some swords he uses have a lightning effect, some allow him to move quicker or perform special attacks but not increase his pressure force by the same degree as a molecular blade.

Not really because their not the same, you cant use one demon from one verse and compare it to another, they play by different power sets in rules. Some demons for example are very weak in some verses, others are incredibly powerful.

hehe, indeed youve noticed his manner to? I am very much open minded to Dante winning this fight, but having knowledge of Dante and WH40k myself I cant say Dantes power compares to things like the higher level Wh40k demons or Warhammer metals, for example he cant really slice through Saviour, even the glass weak points in a cutscene required him to use not only Vergils sword which is arguably sharper or more powerful than his own, but also bullets. The pressure of a bullet impact is little and Dante needs to charge them to do special things, for example uncharged they dont break billiard balls in DMC 3, just knock them around the room into things but when he charges them like Jackpot on Mundus he completly destroys him and launches him into the Demon dimention or w/e.

I think Dantes best bet, would be aiming for the eyes, using time powers and using missle weapons as Carnifexes do get heads blown apart by missles. I am not yet convinced by nemebro argument of "well their krak missles!" since it did not seem to give off much more energy than our class of missle. Until more evidence on those missles is clear, I would say Dante will eventully kill the Carnifex by shooting its head with all manner of weapons or slicing it with deft attacks since hes well beyond its speed.

Edit- Not sure, but this is a question to anyone whos read warrios of ultramar, did it specify what missle it was? since these missles may not necesserily be Krak.

TheGoldenSpy
Does Dante have his time powers scream?

Stopping time for a month and shooting endless amounts of bullets on it's eyes is the only way Dnate might get 3/10

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Does Dante have his time powers scream?

Stopping time for a month and shooting endless amounts of bullets on it's eyes is the only way Dnate might get 3/10 It's not my thread.

Even so, Dante's never stopped time for a month. I can't even recall him ever pulling a full stop, tbh. But meh.

Burning thought
He doesnt have to stop time to shoot endless bullets on its eyes. And hes not just got bullets, hes got Pandora and its vast assortment of weapons. He could do this for years if he has to.

This Carnifex does not even have the hive mind, its not a synapse so its going ot be pretty dumb, mostly animal and may not even be able to use its weapon with any real effectiveness.

ScreamPaste
Without the hive mind's supervision Carnifexen just rampage mindlessly, Dante's not really going to be able to take advantage of that, lol.

Matthias Fenris
eh. full stop from time bangle for as long as his DT gauge held out. if you used super dante with infinite DT, it resulted in infinite time stop. the quick silver slowed time down to a crawl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abh7-K-4ASs
ends up looking like this.. incredicheap.

and scream, im providing all sorts of vids and things to use as comparison for dantes feats. you, on the other hand, provide nothing other than your voice. maybe take some of your own words to heart and pull some backing info of your own before going off on a rant about me? oh, and you're still treating it as if dantes just some shmoe human, with a normal sword. sharpness isnt its only attribute.

but sence you're so converned with feats.. i found this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=983Lt442uW0
3:00 in, dantes moveset starts. pay close attention to all the moves where his sword, or weapon starts glowing red, and fuming with flames, lightning or black smoke. doesnt that look just EXACTLY like the effects of power weapons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdtszCIKNvE
exactly like this? looks like it to me.. so that at the very least puts dantes sword able to stand up in the warhammer universe. which tells me its fully able to deal damage to the fex.

and im not trying to downplay chainswords. im just pointing out. you dont even need a power weapon to gut a fex. just enough skill and a useful handful of abilities. for the space marines, it was jump jets to get into its face, and a master crafted weapon to carve said face out. for dante, its his years of killing demons and his demonic sword, backed by his own demon blood.

ScreamPaste
Videos of irrelevancies. You showed us a synch kill, and beowulf getting killed by Vergil as if they proved anything in relation to a Carnifex. no expression

Godamnit, this is exactly what I mean. See, you see fire and go "POWER WEAPON!" Looks like doesn't mean it is.

If every weapon with a visual effect suddenly becomes a power weapon 90% of fiction suddenly possesses 40k level tech. (Hint: wrong)

Furthermore, just looking like something doesn't make it as powerful as what it looks like. Think of a sculpted tank, or a laser pointer.

Just having a visual effect doesn't tell anyone anything.

Actually, reading through my posts you'll I actually mention feats when I'm not busy trying to explain to you that the things you're saying don't make sense. The fluff's all there in the codices.

Being a half demon doesn't make you as powerful as a chaos daemon. Having a visual effect does not make you a power weapon. Mundus being lord of hell does not make him equal to an empowered Horus. Dante smashing tanks that have no feats. does not allow him to smash tanks that do, and are proven by those feats to be far more durable than modern tanks.

What I'm looking for is a sensible argument. I'm not acting like Dante's a human, I'm acting like it takes a very good destructive feat to put down a Carnifex, which is true.

Editing to respond to your edit:



Read. The. Fluff. A synch kill does not override the freakin' codex.

Matthias Fenris
i really dont understand what you keep meaning by no feats. everything ive mentioned happens in game. nearly all of which you, as a player have direct control of. have you played any of the devil may cry games at all, dude?

and im not talking about just the "look" of it. during gameplay, for both devil may cry 4, and space marine.. dantes empowered hits deal damage to things in an equivalent manner to the ultramarine captain dealing damage to the orcs with his force axe. you can see the game play. they both match up to each-other. which for the sake of the "game verus" thread, paints a pretty clear picture.

if, by feats you mean written stories. then devil may cry only has one manga or so that deals with his 'everyday" life and casual demon hunting and odd jobs. so there is none. so all you have to go by.. is the gameplay. and thus, to pit gameplay against 40k. YOU NEED GAMEPLAY FROM 40K. which is what ive been trying to do with the very few games that feature tyranids. its literally down to dawn of war, and killteam for a comparible basis.

the tyranids have what.. at least a decade.. if not more of lore within the 40k mythos? dozens upon dozens of books and 5 editions of codexes. (which often retcon themselves, and can change entire physical attributes of their units in lore, and tabletop)

so excuse me for trying to judge this thing fairly, by pitting gameplay with gameplay and judging a winner thats fair to both mythos.

ScreamPaste
Dante has plenty of usable feats from the games, you just seem to prefer speculative "is as good as" statements. Dante holds up Saviour's arm for example of a good strength showing, he has piles of good speed and reaction feats since he's primarily a speedster.

The thing is, does he have the kind of strength necessary to mortally wound a Carnifex? The videos you've shown haven't been relevant either way.

NemeBro
What is going on here in my thread?

And for the record, not allowing Quicksilver. Partially because I don't feel Dante "needs" it.

Personally, I think Dante has a fair chance to win. I think it is quite possible that he can mortally wound the Carnifex eventually.

Matthias Fenris
thats actually a much better point than you've been spouting until now. thanks for the clarification. i actually do appreciate it.

my whole point. is that for anything like this.. two severely different mythos. you need to find something as a base to equate it to. dante pushing up saviors hand off of him, the thing being of such sheer size and weight, that makes him obviously inhumanly strong.

a carnifex is what... 20-30 feet tall? all of its strength comes from being genetically powerful. its structured to be the strongest thing in nature for its size, within the limits of DNA. it toppling wraithbone towers, i COULD see happening. but those pictures of towering sky scrapers. the basic laws of physics says that the carnifex's size couldnt let it do that. it pushing at the base, would crumble the base where it pushed, and it would fall into the structure. give an ant the strength of 10 men, and it still cant knock you down, its size prevents that. so im iffy on that stat.

i do agree it is the most powerful physical thing of his size, naturally. (im using naturally meaning something not of the warp, or supernatural) but dante is supernaturally strong. so its one of those things where.. could he block a scything talon from a fex with his sword? its debatable. based on dantes feats in-game, it seems reasonable to assume he COULD parry it.

and if the fex had crushing claws, i could see it doing alot more damage to him. but as its just scything talons, we're looking at another massive impalement for him. after which, he just gets back up and goes right back to fighting it. if the fex stomps him. well, hes been crushed by beowulf, which left him a dante/giant fist crater. which, he promptly got back up like nothing happened. the only real threat im seeing of dante being insta-killed by.. is the venom cannon, (which he can dodge) and being eaten.. the eating thing prolly being the biggest threat. although.. im not sure if dante can survive being split in half... id lawl if he could, because that would be broken.. so yeah.. the fex has a good chance of insta-killing him.

but.. as far as strength goes for dante.. he is more of a fast, slashy guy.
the quickest and easiest thing i saw was the pandora massive laser cannon thingy thats in the vid i showed. it fired a laser that was about as wide as a mans shoulder width, if you saw it. so.. lets assume thats a giant las-cannon. whats the mm size of a heavy lascannon? and compare it to the damage the highest size shot would do to a fex, then math and science it up to figure out the level of damage that size shot would make to the fex.

and dantes strongest attacks realy only use his weapons to channel his demonic power through. like eisenhorn using his monolith staff to channel his psyker power through. (its just an example, not an equal comparison) if you shove a few feet of sharpened metal into a carnifex's eye, and channeled the power of a demon through into its brain... or hell, even lightning, straight to the brain.. would you say that could kill a fex? sounds reasonable to me...

i realise theres not really a basis for dantes level of power compared to standard 40k levels. but thats mostly due to the fact that you cant equate it with 100% precision. you have to find another common ground to put a connection to. so.. that "as good as" is pretty much the best way to figure out the posibilities..

im just trying to say that, given the abilities of both competitors in both mythos, dante COULD kill it, based on the sizes and powers of demons he's killed in the games. whereas a fex COULD kill dante, based on the forces and hordes of armies it's mowed down in games. but to say dante cant do it period, no matter what.. well. that just doesnt make any sense.

TheGoldenSpy
How fast are Carnifex reaction wise?

RE: Blaxican
Slow as ****.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
How fast are Carnifex reaction wise? It's kind of vague. Fast enough to tag space marines, though. Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Slow as ****. Negatory.

RE: Blaxican
It doesn't take much to tag your average space marine.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It doesn't take much to tag your average space marine. It takes a lot of weed to assume a creature designed for combat has terrible reflexes built into it when nothing suggests such. stick out tongue

Space marines can deflect bolter rounds, and a Carnifex can hit them. Take that for what it's worth. Carnifex can't run very fast though, although they get decent speed with a charge, apparently, but it takes time to get there.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
my whole point. is that for anything like this.. two severely different mythos. you need to find something as a base to equate it to. dante pushing up saviors hand off of him, the thing being of such sheer size and weight, that makes him obviously inhumanly strong.

You really don't. For example, Mephisto from Marvel comics and Mundus from DMC are both essentially Satan. However, Mephisto operates on a much higher scale than Mundus does, and has the feats to prove him being much more powerful, so while both characters share the same basic "status" in their respective universes, the difference in power must still be acknowledged.

The Savior has only shown to be as strong as its size would suggest, no more, really.



A Carnifex is actually closer to 15 feet tall IIRC.

See, 40k and physics have a very bad relationship, I'm not sure if physics owes 40k money, or if 40k dumped physics to have a fling with chemistry, but they are not on good terms.

The fluff dictates that the Carnifexes were physically toppled the towering Wraithbone spires of the Eldar. Over the top and incredibly impressive, yes, but that's the kind of verse 40k is. It's also common for sufficiently powerful individuals in 40k. Leman Russ toppled a skyscraper by pushing it over, the Primarchs can physically level mountains. 40k is a very powerful verse, though, the Carnifex is not as powerful as a Primarch admittedly.



That logic doesn't work though. Let's compare, for instance, a Bloodletter, a Daemon, and as such supernaturally powerful, to a Carnifex. The Carnifex is much stronger, despite being entirely biological. Also, during the battle of Sondheim V, Carnifexes are mentioned grappling with Bloodthirsters, the Greater Daemons of Khorne. Now, admittedly, most fluff dictates the Bloodthirster is still, in fact, more powerful in combat, able to hamstring a Carnifex with a single blow, but the difference is not incredible, and a Bloodthirster is much stronger than Dante.

I doubt Dante could straight up parry a scything talon.



Scthing talons cut, not stab. Dante would be pretty thoroughly cut in half, and the Carnifex, were it to force itself on him, would flatten him with his strength. If Dante wishes to win this fight, he should utilise his speed and superior intelligence (Though that last claim for Dante of mine is admittedly arguable). The Venom Cannon would indeed spell big trouble for Dante, but you must remember it can fire while slashing at Dante.



Lascannons aren't meant to fire a "large" laser, it's mean to be thinner, more concentrated, and therefore, more powerful. You can't just equivelate everything between two separate verses.



The problem being the Carnifex has small eyes, thinner than Rebellion certainly, though blinding it is still a viable tactic. But yes, the space surrounding its eyes is armoured.



I disagree. I find comparing their feats and showings against others to be a better way to reach a consensus.



I certainly believe Dante could kill it.

Matthias Fenris
as far as feats go.. im going to say dante spent 4 games running through cities, islands, castles, and jungles slaying hordes of demons for hours (in some cases days, due to the day/night cycle of some games) at a time. laying waste to armies of demonic minions and generals.
http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Bosses
everything in there hes killed himself. on top of the hordes of lesser demons hes slain. he literally decorates his shop with the hides and skulls of demons hes killed. and when i look at that list of creatures, and remember their abilities, strengths, sizes and damage it took to kill them.. i can see a fex fitting in on that nicely..

but i'll get back to you guys more after i finish the campaign for warhammer 40k: killteam. so far, im LOVING the vangaurd veteran. jumpjets dont jump, though.. but his charge is epic for clearing orks.
and im pretty sure theres a fex as a boss in there..

Burning thought
Staying at a distance and launching missles and bullets into its face, eyes etc would be the way to go. Pandora has more than enough weapons to keep Dante satisfied and with the Carnifex not being able to do much about it (unless Dante uses pandoras large multi missle system) then Dantes win is an eventuality.

ScreamPaste
Not really, since unless those attacks are more powerful than his melee attacks, which I doubt since the best feats I've seen from Dante have revolved around his physical capability, he's only going to annoy it.

Dante becoming exhausted is also an eventuality. If he needs to rest or exhausts himself beyond being able to fight, he loses. That should only take a day or so. Then he gets torn apart.

Meh. I'm unsure about whether a Carnifex is totally invulnerable to him to be honest, since there's been no straight up comparisons of his strength to it's durability. But the Carnifex's durability does seem greater to me.

Burning thought
Its eyes are not that endurant, all I hear is of them being damaged and its head can be blown off by a missle. Dante blows out its eyes, and if missles are not powerful enough he then goes in for an easy kill, a fully aware Fex is going to have trouble hitting Dante, let alone a blind one.

Why would Dante get exuasted just fireing missles and bullets? hes not likely to ever get tired doing that unless your talking of sleep deprivation. The Carnifex' eyes cant take that much punishment.

Have you even played DMC?

Darkstorm Zero
Arnt all tyranids equipped with regenerative capabilities? or am I thinking of Zerg when I say that?

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It takes a lot of weed to assume a creature designed for combat has terrible reflexes built into it when nothing suggests such. stick out tongueAn Abrams tank is designed for combat... that doesn't mean it can hit jet fighters.



Well, for one thing, deflecting a bolter round would be a feat of reflexes, not movement, ergo it wouldn't come into play regarding a Carnifex being able to tag a SM. A space marine's movement speed and agility is important, not its reflexes.

For another, can you provide the source for Space Marines deflecting botler rounds? You said Marines plural, so I'm assuming multiple space marines displayed this ability?

cool_ghost
Originally posted by Burning thought
Staying at a distance and launching missles and bullets into its face, eyes etc would be the way to go. Pandora has more than enough weapons to keep Dante satisfied and with the Carnifex not being able to do much about it (unless Dante uses pandoras large multi missle system) then Dantes win is an eventuality.

^^This.

Speed is not arguable here.... the fex hitting dante is near impossible until dante completely runs out of stamina.

During that time all dante has to do is pick it apart, mainly aiming for its eye, until its is blind. When its blind, Dante could just watch it waste all of its energy going crazy.

Burning thought
Yes, I mean the problem is that not only are Scream and Nemebro assuming Dantes going to run out of energy trying to harm it, its eyes and face are not necesserily that durable, its shell and body perhaps but eyes? nah, Dante has more than enough munitions but their also forgetting that the Carnifex may also run out of energy, likely sooner than Dante especially if its going animalistic wild without the hive mind to direct it.

NemeBro
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican Well, for one thing, deflecting a bolter round would be a feat of reflexes, not movement, ergo it wouldn't come into play regarding a Carnifex being able to tag a SM. A space marine's movement speed and agility is important, not its reflexes.

This is absolutely true. A Space Marine has superior reflexes to any human being, but they are also very large, weighing in at about half a ton in their 180 kilo power armour, and are not depicted as being capable of great feats of agility.



It's in First Heretic, one of the Horus Heresy novels. Though it must be said that the Space Marine who deflected those bolter rounds, IIRC a certain Argel Tel, was a very skilled and competent swordsman, even for a Marine. But others have done this. Inquisitors have on a few separate occasions, for instance.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes, I mean the problem is that not only are Scream and Nemebro assuming Dantes going to run out of energy trying to harm it I frankly am not convinced the Carnifex will win. It's too slow.

Try to read the thread before you say things.

Burning thought
Whats that to do with "not convinced the Carnifex will win", I just said people are only bringing up how much energy Dante may have, the Carnifex being biological has a set amount of energy as well.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Burning thought
Whats that to do with "not convinced the Carnifex will win", I just said people are only bringing up how much energy Dante may have, the Carnifex being biological has a set amount of energy as well. I never brought up Dante's stamina. Let alone it running out.

Just saying, stop claiming I'm saying things I didn't. estahuh

ScreamPaste
An abrams isn't a living thing with a nervous system. For a Carnifex to have shitty reaction time it would need to have shitty reaction time built in intentionally. That just doesn't make any sense, and there's nothing that points to it either.

Space marines are still more agile than normal humans.

I'm not claiming a Carnifex can tag Dante based on that, but nothing implies their reaction time is 'slow as shit'.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
^^This.

Speed is not arguable here.... the fex hitting dante is near impossible until dante completely runs out of stamina.

During that time all dante has to do is pick it apart, mainly aiming for its eye, until its is blind. When its blind, Dante could just watch it waste all of its energy going crazy. It'll just heal once he's tired.

No one's brought up the destructive power of said ranged attacks yet, and without a good feat, the Carnifex getting tired first doesn't mean anything since Dante's attacks will just bounce off it's shell for the most part while it reccuperates.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
An abrams isn't a living thing with a nervous system. For a Carnifex to have shitty reaction time it would need to have shitty reaction time built in intentionally. That just doesn't make any sense, and there's nothing that points to it either.

Space marines are still more agile than normal humans.

I'm not claiming a Carnifex can tag Dante based on that, but nothing implies their reaction time is 'slow as shit'.

It'll just heal once he's tired.

No one's brought up the destructive power of said ranged attacks yet, and without a good feat, the Carnifex getting tired first doesn't mean anything since Dante's attacks will just bounce off it's shell for the most part while it reccuperates.

Wrong, shitty reaction time built in? what are you even talking about lol...the hive mind and its genetics have a limit on what they can do. "theres nothing that points to it" is a terrible argument, playing on a negative, theres nothing that points to it being able to react quickly, let alone to Dante.

Or while it reccuperates it gets its eyes/head torn off by Dantes melee.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Burning thought
Wrong, shitty reaction time built in? what are you even talking about lol...the hive mind and its genetics have a limit on what they can do. "theres nothing that points to it" is a terrible argument, playing on a negative, theres nothing that points to it being able to react quickly, let alone to Dante.

Or while it reccuperates it gets its eyes/head torn off by Dantes melee.

1. Reread my post.

2. Feats.

NemeBro
The Carnifex is not noted to be particularly fast.

But I wouldn't claim it's exactly "slow."

Relative to 40k though? Yeah I guess.

Slower than Dante? Absolutely.

Matthias Fenris
as far as feats for a fex's speed goes. its one of the slowest and most lumbering creatures of the 'nid army. i hate to bring game stats into this, but initiative 1 cements that. (meaning all of its attacks happen after anyone else with a higher initiative already hit it. from 1 to 10, 1 is the absolute slowest.) fact is, the fex is not agile. it charges in and uses its hardened shell to deflect the most punishing fire until it can get in close, and because its so big, troops like space marines (who arent exactly noted for being able to jump over, or backflip a scything talon twice as tall as they are) dont really have the speed to evade its wide swings and swipes with claw, tusk, and tail.

and.. ive noticed something..
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/4/48/Carnifex_in_game.png
see the purple bits? those are HEAVILY armored bits. the white bits? much less so. and that bit-o-red behind its head, connecting it to its torso.. prolly the least bit armored. its body cant be unvulnerable. it still has to be flexible enough to allow it to move. so im sure it has weak spots to exploit besides the eyes.

having said that, the way ive seen fexes move, in game. its hunches low. very low for its size. presenting its head down, covering its eyes from fire, and most of that big plating on its back forward. not much of its stomach is presented. so when it assaults, its really only presenting its strongest, toughest parts to the enemy. but from the side, below, and behind it, there would be more vulnerable spots to bring it down.
although.. i just found this thing..
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs47/i/2009/181/d/f/Carnifex_by_slaine69.jpg
which would prolly be a better image to spot its non-plated parts. like in its limbs, and obviously fleshy neck bits.

and what bio-morph of fex is this again? does it have regerate? bonded exoskeliton? hardened carapace? bio-plasma? tusked? tailblade? adrenal glands?

and shin.. dantes feats are in game. theres not alot lore outside of in game for him, besides one manga, and a short anime series. as a feat for his strength, he swung his sword as a fireball that was twice his own height, that was flying at him.. and sent it right back into the face of the monster that fired it. he pushed against the crushing hand of savier, whos size alone makes it a good indicator that hes powerful. and hes been chomped by echidna (a plant/dragon demon/woman about the equivalent size of a trygon) and put his arms, legs and shoulders into shoving her mouth open while he was inside her, and escaped.

now.. judging by those in game actions. im pretty sure he has enough strength to hack into a fex's more unprotected flesh. the scything talons blades, and the hardened carapace parts, probably not. though i doubt theres much that specifically can.

also.. side note.. unrelated to the thread.. carnifex's used to look like this.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2008/8/1_Carnifex-01152824.jpg
aint that just funny?

Matthias Fenris
oh.. and i had to share this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-We_qBoDPOY
dantes feats for agility. i'd LOVE to see a fex touch this.

Burning thought
lol I remember that, infact I recall taking the metal Bio titan when I used to collect nids over that Carnifex when I had the choice.

And I used to spam that first level for souls, it was so easy to get an "S" because it was short and sweet, you can get like 5k souls iirc every time.

Matthias Fenris
right? i was just using that as a referance.. dantes teleporting, bluring his image with his speed, kicking off the ground, kicking off the air, constantly shifting in and out of DT. when faced with multiple opponents, some capable of their own teleportation, and some with a fast charge attack with their scythes. and they're all surrounding him at many points during the battle. dantes also been able to shoot down other bullets in the air with his own guns before they hit him. (in more than one game, in cutscenes and in game, as well) oh, and did you notice his shift into DT causes a shockwave that stuns and knocks back enemies?

the more i think about it, the more i think dante could take on some space marine captains... they'd never touch him.

NemeBro
Hm, I have decided I will allow the Carnifex regeneration,

Matthias Fenris
so then it ends up being like a boss battle on dante must die mode.. if you dont kill things in under a minute, all enemies go into their own devil trigger enhanced mode. (think of a hyper mode) and they hit harder, ignore all but the strongest attacks, and regen their own health. which, that last vid was in dante must die mode. so im still in favor of dante, although it'll take much longer to bring the fex down.

ScreamPaste
Gameplay mechanic.

With their 9-10 strength and the available biomorphs making them I4 would be hilarious. =|

Congratulations, you've spotted the parts of the Carnifex that everyone knew Dante had no chance in hell or the warp of so much as scratching. The 'less' armoured parts of the fex? Still armoured. Still withstood planet glassing. Still impenetrable to Sergeant Tellion and his modified heavy bolter.

Cool, cool. Now were any of these as strong or durable as a Carnifex? Dante's not strong enough to hold open the mouth of a fex, or to parry it's claw. Just attempting either of those would result in him dying due to the wiiiide gap in physical might.

In second edition, yep. In third they looked like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bO7WP-h7r4Q/SjuN4N6s-kI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/Xyv1DZNRQyU/s400/Tyranid_Carnifex_2.gif

Matthias Fenris
sigh. shin, that was one documented fex. that survived by coming out from beneath the earth, and was still nearly dead. hell, theres even reports of rippers surviving exterminatus from the 'nid codex. because they can burrow into the earth and go into a hybernative state. dont act like it just stood there and took the full force like nothing, because it didnt. the thing was underground, which also helps it take the damage.

and does it say specifically where he was shooting with his bolter? or just that this big monstrous thing was charging him, and he pulled out his gun and fired like a madman because, well goddamn.. its a walking bio-tank about to kill your ass deader than disco?

(and for arguements sake, i could compare a bolter to this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYMtgsSl5k
the only difference being its a 12 ga, compared to a .75 calibur round. both are armor peircing explosives. lets see your rage face.)

you seem pretty adamant that the fex is indestructable to anything not top tier in the 40k universe. and that there are no equivalents in any other 'verse. and you still havent answered if you've played the devil may cry games.

cool_ghost
Originally posted by NemeBro
Hm, I have decided I will allow the Carnifex regeneration,
how fast?

ScreamPaste
Negatory, it was injured and rapidly healing. Oh, and it wasn't in a hole, either, it had simply hunkered down. Basically, it laid down.

Injured = alive. Planet glassing > Dante.

No you couldn't. That's nothing like a bolter. That is a shotgun. Legit, what? That wouldn't get past IG flak armour.


Lol, it's cute how you try to downplay this. Tellion had an entire squad with him, he's the only one who survived, IIRC. They all would have shot at OOE, none of them could hurt it, the only thing that stopped it was a lucky shot into the already open wound in it's head. Originally posted by cool_ghost
how fast?

From the codex:

"Some Tyranids have shown the ability to heal from horrendous wounds and injuries that should have proven fatal. Flesh and organs grow anew whilst bone and chitin knit together at an alarming rate, leaving little more than a scar as evidence of any damage."

XanatosForever
That doesn't really give duration...

NemeBro
The "Regeneration" ability is explicitly meant to be used in combat, so it's fairly fast.

Matthias Fenris
ughn. the AA12 is a shotgun, thats also capable of firing 12 ga grenades at full auto, machine gun capability. those grenades come in armor peircing varieties. so, as i said. the only difference would be the size of the round fired. 12ga vs .75 calibur.

and ive read the new codex you're pulling the exterminatus feat from. it doesnt say it was lying down. it said it was rising like a mountain pushing out of the earth. I.E. underground. and ive shown the vid of what exterminatus does. it shears away entire layers of planets crust, along with the atmosphere, oceans and anything else on the surface. that fex wasnt a typical fex. it had to have regeneration to recover from that kind of assault. and it had to be aided in surviving by being beneath the worst of the assault, underground. and it was nearly dead. it didnt even notice the survey team it was within sight of as it was coming out of its daze. they had time to bail and call down another orbital strike on it.

that codex also states that things as weak as ripper swarms have survived exterminatus using the same feat as that fex. and a gaurdsman can stomp the life out of one of them with a boot. which really goes a long way towards explaining how to survive exterminatus.

and as far as old one eye goes.. didnt that hole in its face come from a plasma gun?
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/b/b6/Old_One_Eye.jpg
hes kind of lookin pretty zombie-like..
and a plasma weapon is simply firing volitile globs of superheated gasses like a projectile. of which, i could argue dantes hellfire could easily match. in the first game, theres a frost demon that can survive the heat of hell itself with its ice-body. and dantes gauntlets smashed them up fairly easily.

and was this tellion a space marine? or part of the gaurd? because im fairly certain that gaurdsmen dont get the same calibur of bolt weaponry the astartes do.

and you've still yet to answer if you've played any of the devil may cry games...

Matthias Fenris
and ill back up the fireball/molten magma attack with this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD7TPG35F_4
keep in mind hell is a crazy volcanic, magma and flame filled/living organism level in this game. and those fires he uses outstrip it by far. so its at least on par with plasma weaponry.

Matthias Fenris
nevermind. found out about tellion on my own. space marine commander of the ultramarines. meaning pretty top tier badass in weaponry. (i dont follow much on ultramarines, as they're not my favorite chapter) but he did manage to drop it with a eye socket headshot. and the info i saw was the shots couldnt get past its armored flanks. which i still see it as the stronger armored bits.

although OOE's regeneration ability is unique. he recovers from death. reports are of it being killed dozens of times, its body just regens it and it gets back up afterwards. other fex's cant do that. once they die, they die.

and based on the tabletop, a fex with regen works VERY well in a battle of attrition. not so well in a hard and fast brawl. they're not going to have a deadpool-level of healing. more like a slower wolverine. heals damage over time, while its moving between ingagements over a large scale battlefield. not closing holes in its flesh as they're made.

XanatosForever
Exactly how many methods of attack do Carnifex have? I've heard of talons, which I assume means at least two, and it must have a bit. Apparently this one has a gun as well. Is there anything else that Dante might have to watch out for?

NemeBro
Being hit by any of it really.

Matthias Fenris
pretty much..the venom cannon punches into tank armor really nicely. and the fex's scything talons are also something honed down to a monomolecular edge. though everything ive seen of a fex using its talons shows they like stabbing things with it. and slashing with its crushing claws.. (which this fex doesnt have) his it can totally slash with it..

ScreamPaste
Oh, and also the wide difference in power. A bolt round is more effective than a lasgun round, lasguns have a multi megajoule output as per imperial armour.

IE, the bolter round is so much more powerful than a modern day grenade it's hilarious to compare them. As a side note, they're also self propelled rockets, but meh.



http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/exterminatus.jpg

Oh, that's cool how a dormant Carnifex can dig it's way up out of the earth's crust. Oh, wait, no, it simply hibernated that way, and debris piled up on it from the barrage of 'mass yield cyclonic saturation'.

Oh, and it wasn't even a regen fex, it was simply hibernating to heal more quickly, a regen fex would already have been healed. IE:
WRONG! stick out tongue

It did, and I'm not sure what this proves? A plasma gun, as per imperial armour, has the power of small star or something, and actually converts matter it strikes into plasma.

Please, PLEASE back this up with a feat. A really, really good one. A plasma shot can pierce space marine armour with ease. Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
and ill back up the fireball/molten magma attack with this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD7TPG35F_4
keep in mind hell is a crazy volcanic, magma and flame filled/living organism level in this game. and those fires he uses outstrip it by far. so its at least on par with plasma weaponry. K, I watched it... Please, please explain to me how this video makes Ifrit on par with plasma weaponry? no expression Some fire and a fireball attack =/= the power of a small star.

The entire point of the entry is that until Tellion got a lucky shot into an already open wound he couldn't even hurt OOE.

Carnifexen are badass amounts of durable.

Now, can we please compare Dante's strength to the Carnifex's durability? Can he honestly stack up to exterminatus, can the strength of his blows really compare to the monomolecular edge of a chainsword?

Also, this is a regenfex, apparently, as Nemebro allowed the Carnifex regen, meaning Dante honestly can't kill it, imho. Even blinding it won't matter now, he'll get tired eventually, and it will rip him apart effortlessly. Dante <<<< Wraithbone spires.

Also, I'd like to apologise for my tone. I know a lot of my posts come off as harsh and aggressive. It's a bad habit, I actively try to tone it down, but my debater's tone is naturally bitter and angry. sad

Matthias Fenris
as i said. 12ga vs .75 calibur. huge difference in size. meaning difference in power. im not saying its exactly equal to. im saying it can be done by todays modern standards. you ever see the difference between a 9mm round and a .44 magnum round when it hits something? that aa-12 i could call a 9mm round compared to a bolter .50 cal round. (by todays standards) so weaponry like a bolter could be made. hell, just look up the metal storm automated weaponry thats coming out. firing full on self propelled grenades by the thousands in a few seconds.

and that codex line doesnt prove the fex was or wasnt a regen biomorph. and the wording used doesnt say it was on the planets surface. natural rock formation rising out of the swirling dust storms. hmmn. still looks to me like it was coming out from the ground. meaning underground. read up on hive fleet jormungandr. and how they assaulted planets. rippers, ravagers, and trygons could easily survive exterminatus in the same way.

and dante doesnt need to match the power of exterminatus. thats was one fex. of a planet full of 'nids. and they bombed it to hell with a much smaller yield orbital strike which totally annihilated it.

and the power of a star? no. more like the heat of the surface of one. which id have to add that lightning can do too. and theres been reports of people being struck by lightning 7 times. look up 'roy sullivan". that being said, dantes swords have had lightning crackling through them. oh look. lightning strikes with the heat of the surface of the sun, too. funny that, isnt it?

oh, plasma..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)
super. heated. gasses.
dante was fighting creatures called frosts. in the volcanic heat of hell. to which they didnt give a wherehouse full of crap about being in. their ice held. against the ifrit flames, they shattered like chumps. which suggests crazy high temps, at least much, much more than surpassing volcanic heat.

and thats OOE. whos regens rates make it the deadpool of carnifexes. OOe is not the standard regenerating fex. normal fexes cant come back from death. OOE can. all that regen means to dante is that as the battle goes on, the fex will slowly regain its hp bar over time.. O_o. which he's dealth with before. try actually playing a devil may cry game, and try it on dante must die mode.

and ive already heard and expressed my opinions about the wraithbone towers. strength is one thing. but the physics of a 15 foot tall creature toppling a tower that (judging by the images) would be drawfing modern sky scrapers, tells me the fluff isnt specific in size of the towers.

and peircing space marine armour with ease?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFkFo5SBx-g
orks with crude and jagged choppas are getting through that armor no problem. i dont see why dantes sword couldnt. and didnt you say they could also survive exterminatus just be hunkering down and letting it wash over them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSOp3mMcYdU&feature=related
like that? most of the exterminatus effect is heat, concussion, and vaporisation of the atmosphere. its not really focused on dealing concentrated damage to any one thing.

and as for your arguements on dantes strengths. you're trying to compare supernaral powers vs technological and biological. dante is supernatural. demonic. how well does a demonically crafted sword, forged thousands of years in the past measure up in 40k? because thats what dantes sword is.

and its not really easy to gauge tone over text. we've talked before, dude. ive seen you for holloween. O_o.. kratos dressed at mario, right?

and dude.. have you played ANY dmc game? because ive played 1-4, and tabletop 40k, dawn of war 2, space marine, and killteam. im going to say i dont think ive read as many 40k books as you, nor have i read into as many doxes as you probably have. (nids 4th edition, black templar, tau, IG, orks, and some necron) as far as the books ive read. gaunts ghosts. the first two omnibus's, the 13th legion omni, ravenor omni (1st one), eisenhorn omni. thats the sum of my XP in 40k and dmc.

so, im pretty confident that im pulling above avarage insight from both mythos. and im getting the feeling you havent played any dmc game, and have no idea of dantes feats. (nearly all of them you control in game, and would have to play to really compare)

Burning thought
Where does it say plasma weapons strike with the heat of a star? any part of a star? all it seems to say is with the energy of a "small star". Also ceramite is as its name implies, a ceramic, we use ceramics in our armour from time to time.

Matthias Fenris
plasma cutters used today can burn at over 300 degrees kelvin. the surface of the sun burns at 5,778 kelvin. at 0 kelvan is consitered absolute zero. nothing can go below it. all molecular and atomic movement stops at 0 kelvin.

Burning thought
But what says a plasma gun burns at 5778 kelvan?

Matthias Fenris
nothing does. nothing in the 40k fluff (that ive seen) gives plasma weaponry any specific temperature. im just going by the temp of plasma as is created today.. and plasma happening in nature. (meaning space, stars, ect.)

oh.. here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaSRIbPWkM
part 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related
part 2.
ceramic body armor. stops grenades. stops rifle rounds. by breaking. it absorbs the impact and breaks, letting the force spread out over an area. works really well. 40k stuff would obviously work alot better. but they also used ceramic steel in the halo mythos. and plasma tore through that like butter.

Burning thought
Plasma is quite a general term I guess, it can cover a large variety of things so the plasma bolts are ambigious, we can only go by their direct feats which is so far being able to melt into Marines and burn eyes off Carnifex'.

You brought up a decent point about Orks and their choppas harming marines, I doubt each "choppa" has any special properties either and average Orks are not all that strong tbh, their strikes do not knock back marine bodyweight, at least not in the sources I have seen, mostly games since ive not read novels on Orks.

I could probably name many things that can harm Marines if I had recently read the omnibus because they get damanged quite often, they dont often come out of any of their stories unharmed. We only know small arms fire like las guns are only so effective.

Matthias Fenris
very good point you have there. and im pretty sure, if i remember my lore that small squads of space marines can bring down fex's pretty easily, if its not backed up by other 'nids. using old one eye is kind of an overpowered referance. hes a "hero" unit. and a legendary one at that. theres only supposed to be one of him throughout all of the nids biofleets.

Burning thought
Well hes a special case, like the Red terror.

Matthias Fenris
and the doom of malan'tai, (that might be misspelled) and the parasite of mortrex... yeah.. so its kind of useless comparing OOE's feats here.

The Scenario
Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
plasma cutters used today can burn at over 300 degrees kelvin. the surface of the sun burns at 5,778 kelvin. at 0 kelvan is consitered absolute zero. nothing can go below it. all molecular and atomic movement stops at 0 kelvin.

Incidentally, those Frost guys are apparently below absolute zero. So, there's that. Demons, man.



Well, Orks are a special case. They way I understand, each Ork has a small psychic ability, and more Orks increase the size and strength of that ability. This lets them warp (pun) reality in small and very specific ways, and this manifests pretty weirdly.

You may have heard about how Ork vehicles go faster if they're painted red? That's part of the Ork mindset, they believe that red vehicles go faster, so when a bunch of Orks are nearby, that vehicle actually will go faster. In a similar way, a lot of Ork weapons work because the Orks believe they will. IIRC, sometimes Ork guns will be found and they'll be nothing more than a box with some bullets inside. But an Ork can apparently pick this up and then proceed to shoot someone with it.

I think Orks can cut ceramite just because they don't know it's supposed to be tough. And Choppas are supposed to chop things, so they do.

(I have no source; I read this on Tvtropes.)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve

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