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Had Itachi and Kisame decided to fight Jiriya right then and there how would they have done???

The two would have won. I think Itachi alone is actually strong enough to beat Jiraiya. Kisame too? Please.

This is of course based solely on feats and what all the characters have proven to be able to do. Dunno, or care, if they got boosted during the time skip.

I think Jiraiya would have won. Kisame would have been one-shotted.

Itachi would have started to win and may have gotten Ama off before being killed.


Making Itachi right about it being a stalemate where everyone dies.

I'm pretty sure they'd beat Jiraiya- though it's worth noting Itachi had already used his mangekyo twice before they even really began so he's probably going to have to limit usage more than usual, making it a harder fight than a two-on-one should be, and there's no way it'd be over before reinforcements show up.

So they still might lose for winning.

Yeah, Guy would show up sooner or later. I just think the two would be too much for Jiraiya on his own. Granted, Itachi being tired presents a problem but he really only needs one Tsukuyomi for a distraction.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yeah, Guy would show up sooner or later. I just think the two would be too much for Jiraiya on his own. Granted, Itachi being tired presents a problem but he really only needs one Tsukuyomi for a distraction. Could Jiriya break a Tsukuyomi? I think if Itachi got him with it thatd be that.

Jiraiya has no talent for genjutsu. Kakashi, who is listed as being better at genjutsu than Jiraiya, couldn't break it so I doubt he could.

Jiraiya's also not likely to try and look him at the eye like Kakashi did.

And if he goes Sage, he can rely on his sensor abilities while fighting eyes-shut.

Eh, Itachi could probably make an opening. And if he couldn't make one, he'll just burn him.

I hate the area they're fighting it.

But would sensor abilities cover Kisame's attacks too? He also has to worry about the frogs not being put under genjutsu right?

Speaking of Kakashi, why did he do that again?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Speaking of Kakashi, why did he do that again?

He thought his eye was enough to make himself immune to Itachi's sharingan.

It turns out that Itachi had an MS.

It'd tell him the location of the foes and their attacks. The frogs can close their eyes too ^^

Kakashi thought his sharingan would protect him (much like Sasuke's did later, but Sasuke'd been practicing genjutsu breaking more).

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka

Speaking of Kakashi, why did he do that again? Idk but he didnt even try to look at his chest or something. He was staring him right in the eyes. Then he tells his comrades to close theirs....

Guy's idea>>>Kakashi's idea

wait a sec, people are still sticking with the plot here so nothing would change as itachi didn't want to cause a war in konoha

you'd have to remove sasuke, remove the goal nobody can kill: naruto, and take the fight our of konoha just for itachi to fight and let kisame go nuts.

According to both Itachi and Kisame Jiraiya would of beaten their monkey asses.

The fact that he is physically strong enough to make Kisame a non-factor supports this, as well as possessing a mode that arguably would make his movement faster than Itachi's.

I'm fairly certain that that statement came from his Sanin rep more than anything. And it doesn't help that the meaning of the statement has changed since the revelation of Itachi's hidden alliance.

Though what indicates that he is stronger than Kisame out of Sage Mode? Out of curiosity?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Though what indicates that he is stronger than Kisame out of Sage Mode? Out of curiosity?

I thought the whole lifting of giant rock toads was that indication. Then the giant Rhino toss which borders on being the best strength feat in the who manga...


Is Jiraiya weaker than Naruto in Sage Mode? I always thought they were about the same with Jiraiya having a more diverse set of Jutsus to use in Sage Mode due to his experience.


Also, it looks like Jiraiya can enter sage mode faster...due to Ma and Pa.

Am I right?

Originally posted by dadudemon
He thought his eye was enough to make himself immune to Itachi's sharingan.

It turns out that Itachi had an MS.
What did he think he was going to accomplish? Did he really think his genjutsu were greater? I can see ways how it could (and did) go wrong, but I can't see what could have gone right. Even if he was immune, why leave himself open to the possibility? Just look somewhere else.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What did he think he was going to accomplish? Did he really think his genjutsu were greater? I can see ways how it could (and did) go wrong, but I can't see what could have gone right. Even if he was immune, why leave himself open to the possibility? Just look somewhere else.

I answered already: He thought his eye was enough to make himself immune to Itachi's sharingan.


It wasn't that he thought his genjutsu was greater...he just thought his Sharingan made him immune.

And he looked because he thought his eye was immune (true...for the most part...but not against someone who had mastered the eye much further than a 3-tomoe user) and the eye offers an awesome precog ability. Seems fairly reasonible if you consider that Kakashi was not aware of the MS at the time. Or at least not aware that Itachi had an MS.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought the whole lifting of giant rock toads was that indication. Then the giant Rhino toss which borders on being the best strength feat in the who manga...


Is Jiraiya weaker than Naruto in Sage Mode? I always thought they were about the same with Jiraiya having a more diverse set of Jutsus to use in Sage Mode due to his experience.


Also, it looks like Jiraiya can enter sage mode faster...due to Ma and Pa.

Am I right?

Out of Sage Mode feats please, not Sage Mode feats.

And to answer your question, I don't think so. Jiraiya made it clear that he was going to hit Pain with full force from the start. And then he implies that he needs time to call them. Since he is not as good at Sage Mode as Naruto, I figured he needed help from the Toads to actually enter it.

As to why Kakashi bothered with keeping his sharingan eye open, it would be worse if all of them closed their eyes.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I'm fairly certain that that statement came from his Sanin rep more than anything. And it doesn't help that the meaning of the statement has changed since the revelation of Itachi's hidden alliance.

Though what indicates that he is stronger than Kisame out of Sage Mode? Out of curiosity?

Only Itachi and Kisame knew another Sannin. Orochimaru. Who got punked by Itachi.

Lulz.

I was including Sage Mode. Why wouldn't I?

Okay, I was right: Jiraiya is absurdly strong, just like Naruto, when in Sage Mode.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-380-14/naruto/chapter-375.html


I would agree that Naruto is faster at this point in the manga. But it used to take him a while. Jiraiya could also do it while moving about on a giant toad...

So I would say in some regards, Jiraiya is still better at going into Sage Mode.


To answer your question, AA, Jiraiya uses Ma and Pa to stay in sage mode. Naruto uses an (off the battle field) shadow clone to gather the sage chakra. So in that regard, Naruto is worse and better at the same time. Remember, Naruto could not fuse with Ma or Pa because of the Kyuubi Chakra: it would not allow them to fuse.


So Naruto had to figure out another way: use an off the battle field shadow clone to gather.


So, yes, Jiraiya is slower at entering sage mode...but he's better at actually entering it because he can gather while staying on the head of a giant hopping toad. He can also create a barrier while on the toad hopping about...while trying to enter sage mode.


Ridiculous.


Jiraiya is better than I gave him credit for, really.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only Itachi and Kisame knew another Sannin. Orochimaru. Who punked Jiraiya.

I was including Sage Mode. Why wouldn't I?

Replaced the statement with an equally true one.

You mentioned the Mode after the statement, making me think you meant his base feats had better strength feats than Kisame.

But since his Sage Mode takes time apparently, I think Itachi and Kisame can get him before he enters it.

Edit: And I wouldn't say he is better at entering Sage Mode than Naruto. Naruto can do it in a few seconds.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Replaced the statement with an equally true one.

In the past that was true. Not anymore. Is there any doubt that Jiraiya could not beat Orochimaru now?

Notably, unlike Oro, who was more or less beaten by Four Tails Kyuubi Naruto, Jiraiya actually subdued it.



I'm tired, shut up.

Kisame is probably stronger than base Jiraiya.



I guess it's a good thing Jiraiya has several large scale jutsu to put distance between them, like big ass quicksand swamp shit, and toad jutsus of awesome.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Edit: And I wouldn't say he is better at entering Sage Mode than Naruto. Naruto can do it in a few seconds.

I would.

And I say that it takes a bit longer than a few seconds. Quite a bit of dialogue and action takes place when Naruto says he's going to do it and when he actually emerges from Sage Mode. I would say Naruto is a few seconds faster...but he is still not "fast".

Guessing (I could use the anime) but it takes Jiraiya a minute.

It takes Naruto 20 seconds.

Originally posted by NemeBro
In the past that was true. Not anymore. Is there any doubt that Jiraiya could not beat Orochimaru now?

Notably, unlike Oro, who was more or less beaten by Four Tails Kyuubi Naruto, Jiraiya actually subdued it.

Si. For moi anyway.

Jiraiya also had the key to Naruto's seal with him, something Orochimaru lacks. He likely stopped him using that or a seal he had prepared ahead of time.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I guess it's a good thing Jiraiya has several large scale jutsu to put distance between them, like big ass quicksand swamp shit, and toad jutsus of awesome.

And I guess it's a good thing Kisame's large scale jutsu make his look less awesome.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I guess it's a good thing Kisame's large scale jutsu make his look less awesome.

I dunno. I think Jiraiya could do some oil stuff and blind Kisame from seeing him in the water. I don't know why I think that would work...I just have this feeling.






There's also the massive concussive forces he can create with his sage-mode punches. Water wouldn't slow down one of the physical strongest characters: he can easily kick giant beasts through what looks like 50 feet of rock, concrete, and metal. That's DBZ sh*t, yo.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Si. For moi anyway.

Jiraiya also had the key to Naruto's seal with him, something Orochimaru lacks. He likely stopped him using that or a seal he had prepared ahead of time.

I tend not to give your opinions much credit though.

Orochimaru was able to stop a weaker Kyuubi Naruto with the same seal nonsense earlier, did he not? O: And speculation. estahuh

With Sage Mode Jiraiya is stronger, faster, and more durable (Arguably, on this last one, admittedly) than Orochimaru, with better Genjutsu as well. Oro's only advantage is versatility.

But that's irrelevant to this thread, so stfu.

They do?

And nah.

The toad throat rendered Kisame utterly impotent. Itachi had to bail him out of that one.

jiraya had that shadow hiding thing remember?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
jiraya had that shadow hiding thing remember?


He could also insta-react and counter Konan's paper shuriken like it ain't no thang.


His reactions are top-notch: among the best in the manga.


Unless, of course, you believe like I do, that Konan's paper shuriken are not very fast compared to other fast projectile attacks.

Jiraiya's speed rating in the databooks is 4.5.

So he really is rather fast

Slower than Itachi, faster than Kisame in base.



We don't have anything that indicates them being any slower.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Had Itachi and Kisame decided to fight Jiriya right then and there how would they have done???

They would have lost if they fought him there since Itachi was tired, and they were trapped in that Toad's oesophagus.

Otherwise, Itachi would beat him.

Yeah, I think the oth of them would be too much for even Jiraiya to handle. I'd actually argue that Itachi would take Jiraiya out alone.

Kisame would loose most likely but with Itachi they would pull through. I do wonder if Kisame could've drowned the toad thing with his lake dome jutsu.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I answered already: He thought his eye was enough to make himself immune to Itachi's sharingan.


It wasn't that he thought his genjutsu was greater...he just thought his Sharingan made him immune.

And he looked because he thought his eye was immune (true...for the most part...but not against someone who had mastered the eye much further than a 3-tomoe user) and the eye offers an awesome precog ability. Seems fairly reasonible if you consider that Kakashi was not aware of the MS at the time. Or at least not aware that Itachi had an MS.
You don't need to look someone in the eye to use precog. Even if he was 100% immune, there was nothing to gain from making eye contact; the best case scenario is nothing happens (and he would have been just as well off looking elsewhere). The worst case scenario is what we saw happen.

Note that when Sasuke broke Itachi's tsukuyomi, Itachi fell to his knees and seemed worse effected than Sasuke was.

So there can be beneficial backlash to breaking your opponent's genjutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
Note that when Sasuke broke Itachi's tsukuyomi, Itachi fell to his knees and seemed worse effected than Sasuke was.

So there can be beneficial backlash to breaking your opponent's genjutsu.
For this assumption, Kakashi would need to think Itachi knew less about the Sharingan than he did. That Kakashi knew "Sharingan can't entrance other sharingan", and somehow, he thought Itachi was ignorant of this fact.

Its also completely wrong that only the MS could overcome the regular sharingan. Itachi used mundane genjutsu to entrance Sasuke many a time. Kakashi is clueless.

He probably thought because of this fact, Itachi wouldn't try, so there was no reason to avoid eye contact and not keep an eye on where Itachi was looking.

And/or he hoped Itachi'd make a "mistake," which he didn't.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You don't need to look someone in the eye to use precog.

But you look people in the eyes when you talk to them. Since Kakashi thought he was immune, it makes far less sense for him to NOT look than it does for him to not look at them.


Originally posted by King Kandy
Even if he was 100% immune, there was nothing to gain from making eye contact; the best case scenario is nothing happens (and he would have been just as well off looking elsewhere). The worst case scenario is what we saw happen.

There was no reason, at that point, for anyone, including the reader, to assume he wasn't immune especially because Kakashi stated it. It was a surprise to everyone.

You're using hindsight to make your conclusions (pun intended). Before that exchange, did you even know that they should not look until Kakashi brought it up? The answer is: no. You did not know, nor did anyone, that looking into the Sharingan would make you more susceptible to a genjutsu. It was Kakashi that revealed that tidbit to us and it was also the same person that revealed having the Sharingan makes one immune.


We then found out a few short moments later that the MS gentjusu techniques are much stronger than the regular genjutsu techs and can overpower even a sharingan having eye.

So here's what you're suggesting: Kakashi awkwardly doesn't look at two people approaching when talking to them for no reason at all. When not observing their person could result in him missing a hand sign or something similar. He has everything to lose by NOT looking at them and everything to gain...based on the knowledge that we all had at the point of confrontation.



In hindsight, we can see that looking at him is bad...but not at that point in time. Nor could Kakashi see that. Your argument is invalid.


"Just look at their feat like Guy did" right? That will be your response in most ways. Why? Now Guy can't see hand signs.

Kakashi would not have been able to copy hand signs if he didn't look up high enough to see them...making his precog fail.

Let's not forget how Guy knew how to fight sharingan: By practicing with Kakashi. So Kakashi is someone who tries for eye contact according to Guy. Here it was simply a case of sharingan vs sharingan, who is better with it. And the answer was Itachi.

Originally posted by Q99
Jiraiya's speed rating in the databooks is 4.5.

So he really is rather fast

Slower than Itachi, faster than Kisame in base.

I think his hand signs are what adds to his high rating. I think in a foot race, Jiraiya is faster in Sage Mode...and easily.



Originally posted by Q99
We don't have anything that indicates them being any slower.

Except that a 4.5 reacted, at point blank, to them and countered them at the same time.


Where are Konan's stats?


I want those.






Also, if we get another databook that gives us their stats, will you adjust your rankings based on the databook stats?


Meaning, if someone is stronger in A rank and should be in the S rank, will you bump them up?



I ask because there may be some ranked a tad too high or a tad too low.


What do you think?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think his hand signs are what adds to his high rating. I think in a foot race, Jiraiya is faster in Sage Mode...and easily.




We have seperate stats for handsigns. Not that I like using stats anyway since they are outdated and make no sense at times.

Let's not forget that Itachi easily evaded Bee's sword style and tangled briefly with Naruto in KCM.
That said, yeah, in a foot-race between Itachi and SM Jiraiya, Jiraiya's likely faster. He's faster than anyone barring KCM/SM Naruto, A, & Gai using Gates.

If he pulls Sage Mode Jiraya sh_tpwns them.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
We have seperate stats for handsigns. Not that I like using stats anyway since they are outdated and make no sense at times.

We do?

Because I could have sworn Itachi had such a high speed rating due to his hand signs? He's reactions are fast...but his physical speed from point a to point b are not that remarkable for S Class.

Reactions, how fast you can do jutsus, and physical movement appear to be what goes into the rating.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Let's not forget that Itachi easily evaded Bee's sword style and tangled briefly with Naruto in KCM.

But...he has the Sharingan. That's not a speed feat but a Sharingan precog feat.

It takes the seven swords style to counter the Sharingan...or amping up like A to make yourself second only to Minato. B and Itachi almost got to that point, but never did.

Also, Naruto was having a casual conversation with Itachi while just dodging Itachi's attacks: hardly the attacking that you presumed.

Sure, Itachi is fast, but he's not so fast that B cannot casually tell Naruto the he knows Itachi is behind him. I would put B and Naruto and a completely different level than Itachi when it comes to physical movement: he ain't no thang in to both of them as far as speed goes.

That also speaks of how fast B really is. I have more respect for B after reading that chapte.r

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That said, yeah, in a foot-race between Itachi and SM Jiraiya, Jiraiya's likely faster. He's faster than anyone barring KCM/SM Naruto, A, & Gai using Gates.


Yeah, that's right, B*tch. 313

Jiraiya should be a bit faster than both Kisame and Itachi in his age mode. He's far stronger, of course. And absorbing his sage chakra would be suicide for both Samheda or Kisame. I still see Kisame being one shotted and the fight being mainly between Itachi and Jiraiya.