Wolverine vs Blade/Cassie

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carver9
Everyone has standard gear.

Sin I AM
cassie?

juggernaut74
A few years ago SHIELD hired Blade to bring Wolverine into custody but during the fight Blade changed his mind right when he was gonna put Logan down.

Mr.Mxyzptlk
Are we talking Cassandra Cain?

Or Wonder Girl

or what?

Because I've seen the feats compared with each other and I give a nod to Wolverine over Blade.

Now, Blade is a tough customer and pretty skilled; he just doesn't have the martial arts exposure to make me think he's Wolverine's near equal in fighting skill. Add on that they're comparable to speed and that Wolverine may have strength by a small margin and durability by a mile and I don't see Blade winning without massive prep and/or dumb luck.

Mr.Mxyzptlk
Originally posted by juggernaut74
A few years ago SHIELD hired Blade to bring Wolverine into custody but during the fight Blade changed his mind right when he was gonna put Logan down.

There was context to that though.

Logan didn't even want to fight Blade for one and he had just finished a several hour long fight with Omega Red.

And even then Blade's ace in the hole was trying to vampirize him and we already know Wolverine's healing factor eats that.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
There was context to that though.

Logan didn't even want to fight Blade for one and he had just finished a several hour long fight with Omega Red.

And even then Blade's ace in the hole was trying to vampirize him and we already know Wolverine's healing factor eats that. Oh, I remember Logan threateneing that he was going to kill Blade. I also recall Blade wanted to bring him in alive as well.

carver9
Cassandra Cain

Mr.Mxyzptlk
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/logan-bone-claw-wolverine-vs-cassie-bat-girl-20136.jpg

The relevant scan.

SamZED
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Oh, I remember Logan threateneing that he was going to kill Blade. I also recall Blade wanted to bring him in alive as well. Blade didnt really have the upperhand in that fight. They were both on the ground, Blade didnt use the needle while Logan didnt use his claws.

Trackz
Originally posted by SamZED
Blade didnt really have the upperhand in that fight. They were both on the ground, Blade didnt use the needle while Logan didnt use his claws. According to the writer he did...he didn't write the scene very well though...I'm interested if his answer would change if a Wolverine fan e-mailed him.

Anyway the team should take it.

Scoobless
Originally posted by Mr.Mxyzptlk
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/logan-bone-claw-wolverine-vs-cassie-bat-girl-20136.jpg

The relevant scan.

Chaykin? that guy doesn't seem to know what faces actually look like ... or how teeth are often not gritted, especially during conversation.

srankmissingnin
I don't mind his faces actually. Chaykin's art has the same problem as Romita Jr, it is very flat, but instead of embracing that they both colour their work to emphasize the none existent form of their figures, which makes the work come off even flatter then it would normally. I think if it was coloured like the work of Marcos Martin or Paolo Rivera on Daredevil, Chaykin's art would like 100 times better (same with Romita Jr). He needs to embrace the classic sensibilities of his art instead of pretending its something that it isn't.

SamZED
Originally posted by Trackz
According to the writer he did...he didn't write the scene very well though...I'm interested if his answer would change if a Wolverine fan e-mailed him.

Anyway the team should take it. What do you mean according to the writer? He said something in an interview? Im asking because it seemed like the scene was intended to be a stalemate.

Trackz
Originally posted by SamZED
What do you mean according to the writer? He said something in an interview? Im asking because it seemed like the scene was intended to be a stalemate. I emailed him after getting tired of all the debate, he said it was a stalemate with blade having the slight upperhand (he had a means of possibly killing Wolverine which people usually don't). the scene could've been written better in my opinion though. His exact quote was:
"The fight was designed to end in a draw -- albeit with Blade having the upper hand, mainly because Wolverine's healing factor makes him virtually unbeatable in this kind of fight."
Then he talked about a Blade/Wolverine one-shot he penned in 2007.

Silent Guardian
Blade can hang with Wolverine but eventually Wolverine would take him down, most likely anyway.


But Cassandra might take Wolverine down on her own she is that good

DarkSaint85
Why would going 15 rounds with Omega Red leave him tired? When he has the HF, and I've seen him shrug off worse...

Nietzschean
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would going 15 rounds with Omega Red leave him tired? When he has the HF, and I've seen him shrug off worse... b/c his healing factor needs to recover and his healing factor slows down.

it has bn emphasized several times throughout wolverine's comic career. erm

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would going 15 rounds with Omega Red leave him tired? When he has the HF, and I've seen him shrug off worse...

Omega Red powers dwindles Wolverines healing factor. Just being around Red drains him. It had nothing to do with the fight...it was leaned more on the powerset.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why would going 15 rounds with Omega Red leave him tired? When he has the HF, and I've seen him shrug off worse... It drains his hf. But during the fight he was stabbed and shot multiple times with no worries. Wolverine's hf is top notch.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
But Cassandra might take Wolverine down on her own she is that good

lmao

SamZED
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
lmao I wouldnt put it so harshly but pretty much, yeah. QFT.

Silent Guardian
Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliber


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8449/dd73nf.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/55758/1055540- wolverine_shi___dark_night_of_judgement___page_18_
super.jpg


Lets not forget Elektra humiliating Wolvie paralyzing him and outmaneuvering him

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1572338-evw1_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1572321-downsize__3__super.jpg

And we all know Cassandra is above Elektra

JakeTheBank
The shit storm that's brewing is going to be intense.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The shit storm that's brewing is going to be intense. http://tuisto.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/popcorn.jpg

Nietzschean
I dont even know where to begin.


I really only see Blade and Cass prolonging the inevitable which is Logan winning.

I am not even going to bother with the scans posted above.

SamZED
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliber

And we all know Cassandra is above Elektra Id actually place Elektra above Cassandra. Not by far but still. And there was context to that fight. It was a cheapshot and Logan was both weakened and mindcontrolled. Most of the time Logan is either evenly matched or trashes top tier MAs. Not like Cass doesnt have bad showings. As for Daredevil scan... that's Ennis. No point in explaining anything further.

Silent Guardian
Originally posted by SamZED
Id actually place Elektra above Cassandra. Not by far but still. And there was context to that fight. It was a cheapshot and Logan was both weakened and mindcontrolled. Most of the time Logan is either evenly matched or trashes top tier MAs. As for Daredevil scan... that's Ennis. No point in explaining anything further.

you'd place Elektra above Cassandra really?!? I find Cassandra to be more consistent than Elektra and more dominant against the caliber of opponents she faces quit honestly. Especially considering there weapons and fighting styles.


As for speed and maneuverability I'd put Cass much higher than logan. Its ultimately Logan's ferocity and damage soak/healing factor which carries the day.

Yes Logan has some impressive speed feats and dodging feats but for everyone he has I could pull up five instances where he is getting tagged, or shot or blasted you name it.


I find Cassandra's high end feats to be much more consistent. I just can't see Wolverine getting to her easily

SamZED
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
you'd place Elektra above Cassandra really?!? I find Cassandra to be more consistent than Elektra and more dominant against the caliber of opponents she faces quit honestly. Especially considering there weapons and fighting styles.


As for speed and maneuverability I'd put Cass much higher than logan. Its ultimately Logan's ferocity and damage soak/healing factor which carries the day.

Yes Logan has some impressive speed feats and dodging feats but for everyone he has I could pull up five instances where he is getting tagged, or shot or blasted you name it.


I find Cassandra's high end feats to be much more consistent. I just can't see Wolverine getting to her easily That's IMO ofcourse. TBH I dont care enough to debate. Either way it IS debatable.

Logan gives that impression because he tends to fight like a beast. Why bother jumping around and waste time when you can launch yourself at bullets and kill everyone in a heartbeat? But CIS aside, when Logan puts his mind to it, he's crazy fast. To the point he slices people to many pieces so fast they dont realise what happened to them. So it all comes down to CIS. He's easilly as fast as Cass.

Silent Guardian
Originally posted by SamZED
That's IMO ofcourse. TBH I dont care enough to debate. Either way it IS debatable.

Logan gives that impression because he tends to fight like a beast. Why bother jumping around and waste time when you can launch yourself at bullets and kill everyone in a heartbeat? But CIS aside, when Logan puts his mind to it, he's crazy fast. To the point he slices people to many pieces so fast they dont realise what happened to them. So it all comes down to CIS. He's easilly as fast as Cass.

Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.


http://i10.tinypic.com/87bv52q.jpg

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/8647/vswolv1.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1874/pantherks1.png


This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.


http://i10.tinypic.com/87bv52q.jpg

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/8647/vswolv1.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1874/pantherks1.png


This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different. I've never seen those before. BP tooled Logan twice there.

Silent Guardian
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I've never seen those before. BP tooled Logan twice there.

BP has always seemingly had the edge on Logan in terms of speed and agility. Doesn't necessarily mean he'd beat him in a fight. Logan's certainly stronger and more durable, with the healing factor.


But I was just trying to show how top martial artist who are fast and agile have done against Wolvie. Now I think BP is faster and more agile than Cass (when he has his enhanced abilities), but I don't see it being a big disparity.

SamZED
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.

This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different. Take a look at his fight with Shang Chi. Or his fight with Cap. Or recent h2h with Iron Fist who is a better fighter than most DC street levelers. Or many other fights in Logan's respect thread. I am sorry but what you do here is called lowballing. I could post scans of Cass having trouble with Tim Drake who is not even a B list martial artist. Every character has poor showings and Logan appeared in many more books than Cass, hence more low showings. But at the end of the day, he's fought and beaten the best of them. And his speed/reflexes feats are among the best in marvel.

Prep-Man
If Slade had a hard time tagging Cass, then I would assume Logan or Cap would as well.

SamZED
Cap and Logan are more skilled than Slade tbh. Cass skills is what kept her ahead of DS.

Prep-Man
Not by leaps and bounds, though. At least, IMO.

SamZED
Agreed.

Silent Guardian
The recent Iron First fight was PIS. I don't know which Shang Chi fight your talking about. And are you referring to the fight in wolverine's solo title where he humiliates everyone?

I'm not lowballing Logan I'm just taking an average of his appearances. I try not to ascribe to stat drift

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/169452588146660156

SamZED
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
The recent Iron First fight was PIS. I don't know which Shang Chi fight your talking about. And are you referring to the fight in wolverine's solo title where he humiliates everyone?

I'm not lowballing Logan I'm just taking an average of his appearances. I try not to ascribe to stat drift

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/169452588146660156 Why PIS? There was no plot that required Logan to win. And it's perfectly within Logan's eastablished skill level. Im talking about a fight where Logan takes Shang down in 2 pannels using his skills.

That's not really an average. Bringing up poor performances would work for any other character (excluding Squirrel Girl I guess). Take Slade for example. First he stomps Batman twice, then he barely survives an encounter with Speedy. We shouldn't judge characters by low showings. Logan is an established Marvel MA top tier. Its been so for decades.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Slade had a hard time tagging Cass, then I would assume Logan or Cap would as well.

Yet her average Batman Shiva Nightwing Connor did not have as much trouble as Slade did in his first encounter. And in there second match Cass was having trouble getting to Slade. As their third bout they both went hit for hit on one another.

The average is more important then a one time isolation.

Prep-Man
Batgirl beat Shiva, right? Cass only went a few rounds with Dick, but looked a little better. And they only fought twice. Deathstroke having a hard time or frustrated that she was dancing around him. I'll look at the 2 feats. Not saying Cass would actually beat Slade in the long run. Especially DCnU Slade.

SamZED
He's that good eh? Think I should start reading the new DC books.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Batgirl beat Shiva, right? Cass only went a few rounds with Dick, but looked a little better. And they only fought twice. Deathstroke having a hard time or frustrated that she was dancing around him. I'll look at the 2 feats. Not saying Cass would actually beat Slade in the long run. Especially DCnU Slade.

Yes she defeated Shiva but Cass got tagged left and right which is my point. INfact the names I mentioned tagged her and did not struggle as much as Slades first showing with her.

Prep-Man
Like Sam said, Shiva, Batman, etc... are all more skilled than slade.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Like Sam said, Shiva, Batman, etc... are all more skilled than slade.

That I can actually agree with.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliber


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8449/dd73nf.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/55758/1055540- wolverine_shi___dark_night_of_judgement___page_18_
super.jpg


Lets not forget Elektra humiliating Wolvie paralyzing him and outmaneuvering him

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1572338-evw1_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1572321-downsize__3__super.jpg

And we all know Cassandra is above Elektra

Context my friend, context.

Prior to DD punching Wolverine in the throat, Wolverine was fighting both DD and Spidy at the same time... and he was winning. He took out Spider-man in in just a few panels. It wasn't one on one fight, and there is no indication that DD's throat punch managed to incapacitate Wolverine for more than the few seconds shown on panel... and considering in the next issue he gets his abdomen completely incinerated and is still conscious and talking, the most likely turn of events is that he was up and %100 in three panels.

Daredevil ambushes Wolverine, Wolverine puts him in a full nelson in three panels:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2468/marvelcomicspresents151hm4.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/546/marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpg

Elektra ambushed a mind controlled Wolverine - who was missing part of his soul and minutes earlier was being kept alive by S.H.I.E.L.D tech - while he was engaged in a fight.

FYI Elektra is FAR above Batgirl. She is much stronger. Much faster. More skilled. Telepathic. Plus she has a variety of quasi mystical chi abilities under belt. Elektra would tool Shiva or Cass. Hard.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
you'd place Elektra above Cassandra really?!? I find Cassandra to be more consistent than Elektra and more dominant against the caliber of opponents she faces quit honestly. Especially considering there weapons and fighting styles.


As for speed and maneuverability I'd put Cass much higher than logan. Its ultimately Logan's ferocity and damage soak/healing factor which carries the day.

Yes Logan has some impressive speed feats and dodging feats but for everyone he has I could pull up five instances where he is getting tagged, or shot or blasted you name it.


I find Cassandra's high end feats to be much more consistent. I just can't see Wolverine getting to her easily

I would recommend you peruse the Elektra respect threat or something, because you couldn't be more off base.

Wolverine doesn't get tagged because he isn't fast enough to avoid damage, he gets tagged routinely because he typically doesn't care about avoiding it. It makes as much sense to hold that against his speed as it would to dock Superman for all the times he stands there and lets bullets bounce of his chest. Sure he could avoid them... but why bother, they can't do any real damage to him.

Cass has been tagged by Shiva, Batman, Nightwing, GA, Onyx and numerous street level MAs. The notion that she is too fast (or even as fast as Wolverine) is frankly absurd.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.


http://i10.tinypic.com/87bv52q.jpg

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/8647/vswolv1.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1874/pantherks1.png


This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.

Black Panther grabbed Wolverine and judo tossed him. Awesome? Wolverine's done that exact. same. thing. to the freaking Mandarin. Anyone here want to go on record and say that they feel that is Wolverine displaying more skill than the Mandarin?

I love how the scans have been edited here to make Black Panther come off better than he did in the actual fight and the panels where Wolverine catches T'Challa and pins him to the ground is conveniently missing. Subtle!

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Slade had a hard time tagging Cass, then I would assume Logan or Cap would as well.

We've been told expressly that Slade holds back and toys with Cass, and that her move reading doesn't work on him. If he actually fought her to win, he would, and it wouldn't be pretty.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Not by leaps and bounds, though. At least, IMO.

Nightwing is leaps and bounds more skilled than Slade. Cap and Wolverine are in a completely different galaxy. cool

JayDaDon
I was just waiting for srank to find this thread tehe

Q99
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We've been told expressly that Slade holds back and toys with Cass, and that her move reading doesn't work on him. If he actually fought her to win, he would, and it wouldn't be pretty.


Hah, no, that's not what was said smile

In the first fight, he didn't know who she was, and she did great.

In the second fight, the *only* time he was said to be holding back, she superficially 'won,' holding his sword an inch from his face. Also, she was able to read him during that fight- she just commented that it's hard due to how he moves like a 'choir', but she knew that he was really just luring her to Ravager.



In their last fight, he outright said the only way to fight her was to get inside her head.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Q99
Hah, no, that's not what was said smile

In the first fight, he didn't know who she was, and she did great.

In the second fight, the *only* time he was said to be holding back, she superficially 'won,' holding his sword an inch from his face. Also, she was able to read him during that fight- she just commented that it's hard due to how he moves like a 'choir', but she knew that he was really just luring her to Ravager.



In their last fight, he outright said the only way to fight her was to get inside her head.

It's exactly what was said.

The first "fight" was just another example of Slade toying with her. She did well because he wasn't trying. The moment he got remotely serious he took out a grenade and took back the disc.

She didn't "win," he wasn't even trying to fight her, he was trying to lure her to Ravager... which he did... so having accomplished what he set out to do... he won. Case couldn't read him. She said he was "Too fast. Too loud. Too much to fallow. The meaning gets lost." She figured out he was toying with her, but that has nothing to do with body reading, that can been was done with normal human perception.

He said the same thing about Ravager... and he has kicked her ass half a dozen times. His statement wasn't true about Ravager, wasn't true about Cass either.

Silent Guardian
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I would recommend you peruse the Elektra respect threat or something, because you couldn't be more off base.

Wolverine doesn't get tagged because he isn't fast enough to avoid damage, he gets tagged routinely because he typically doesn't care about avoiding it. It makes as much sense to hold that against his speed as it would to dock Superman for all the times he stands there and lets bullets bounce of his chest. Sure he could avoid them... but why bother, they can't do any real damage to him.

Cass has been tagged by Shiva, Batman, Nightwing, GA, Onyx and numerous street level MAs. The notion that she is too fast (or even as fast as Wolverine) is frankly absurd.

All the characters you mentioned, except for Green Arrow are faster than Wolverine. He isn't quicksilver. There are attacks Wolverine has tried to dodge and been unable to. Some good nerve strikes will really mess up logan

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Black Panther grabbed Wolverine and judo tossed him. Awesome? Wolverine's done that exact. same. thing. to the freaking Mandarin. Anyone here want to go on record and say that they feel that is Wolverine displaying more skill than the Mandarin?

I love how the scans have been edited here to make Black Panther come off better than he did in the actual fight and the panels where Wolverine catches T'Challa and pins him to the ground is conveniently missing. Subtle!

LOL way to misinterpret events. Wolverine doesn't catch panther. Panther catches Wolverines wrists/ forearms. Than Wolverine twists his body putting panther on his back.

The whole fight Panther wasn't even goign seriosuly he tells Logan its just a game even though Wolverine is trying to kill him repeatedly.

srankmissingnin
Quite literally not a one of those characters are as fast as Wolverine let alone faster. Wolverine has significantly better speed feats any of them, he has legitimately superhuman combat speed. Even ignoring things like that he has dodged sneak attacks from Living Lightening, point blank artillery fire from a tank, moved so fast that he can block the barrel of a gun after the trigger is pulled but before the bullet can leave the chamber and the myriad of other speed feats he has that outclass street level humans, Wolverine has legitimate speed blitzes under his belt. He has been timed on panel as taking .038 seconds to chamber and throw a punch. Wolverine is noticeably faster than every single one of those characters, there is a reason why Spider-man had to question whether or not Wolverine was faster than him.

When has Wolverine ever tried to dodge something and fail?

I didn't look up the scans, I was just going from memory and I thought Wolverine caught Panther and reversed him. Not that it matters, it's more impressive that he was able to reverse and pin Panther without a dominate hand hold.

SamZED
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Context my friend, context.

Prior to DD punching Wolverine in the throat, Wolverine was fighting both DD and Spidy at the same time... and he was winning. He took out Spider-man in in just a few panels. It wasn't one on one fight, and there is no indication that DD's throat punch managed to incapacitate Wolverine for more than the few seconds shown on panel... and considering in the next issue he gets his abdomen completely incinerated and is still conscious and talking, the most likely turn of events is that he was up and %100 in three panels.

Daredevil ambushes Wolverine, Wolverine puts him in a full nelson in three panels:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2468/marvelcomicspresents151hm4.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/546/marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpg

Elektra ambushed a mind controlled Wolverine - who was missing part of his soul and minutes earlier was being kept alive by S.H.I.E.L.D tech - while he was engaged in a fight.

FYI Elektra is FAR above Batgirl. She is much stronger. Much faster. More skilled. Telepathic. Plus she has a variety of quasi mystical chi abilities under belt. Elektra would tool Shiva or Cass. Hard. TBH that wasnt really the context of that scene. Wolverine wasnt fighting both Spider-man and Daredevil at the same time. Spider-man wasnt fighting him, he just grabbed him in an attempt to stop him from killing Frank and Logan kicked Peter in the balls. Just wanted to clear this up, because its not the same as fighting and taking someone down. As for that hit having any kind of effect on Wolverine.. Ennis wrote it.

srankmissingnin
They were fighting, Spider-man was just put down before he could muster any sort of offense. Pete tried to web Logan, then he tried to restrain him... then he got flip kicked in the nuts. wink

juggernaut74
Back to the thread. Blade and Cassie may be good but it takes alot to put down Wolverine and these two don't have the power or weapons to do so.

jinzin
no expression


Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The shit storm that's brewing is going to be intense. Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://tuisto.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/popcorn.jpg




And..... I'm here....

srankmissingnin
I'm leaving to see my family for the holidays now. I'm tagging jinzin in!

SamZED
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They were fighting, Spider-man was just put down before he could muster any sort of offense. Pete tried to web Logan, then he tried to restrain him... then he got flip kicked in the nuts. wink Then I guess Spider-man totally owned Wolverine in that fight they had when Spider-man was helping that mutant kid. Took him 2 pannels. rolling on floor laughing

Parmaniac
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm leaving to see my family for the holidays now. I'm tagging jinzin in! Nice holidays

jinzin
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliber


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8449/dd73nf.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/55758/1055540- wolverine_shi___dark_night_of_judgement___page_18_
super.jpg


Lets not forget Elektra humiliating Wolvie paralyzing him and outmaneuvering him

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1572338-evw1_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60216/1572321-downsize__3__super.jpg

And we all know Cassandra is above Elektra



Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.


http://i10.tinypic.com/87bv52q.jpg

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/8647/vswolv1.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1874/pantherks1.png


This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.



Oh for ****'s sake.... K.... Hudlin, and Ennis.... Even if that was all that I had to say in response to these posts it would be enough to discredit half of your "proof" right off the bat. Why's that? Simple.

Ennis is a hack writer when it comes to Marvel who has openly admitted multiple times that he tends to "take the piss" with superheroes because finds them "silly" so right there that should tell you how well he's going to portray them. That arc? Yeah according to that arc Spiderman and Daredevil's extra sensory don't account for shit, neither do Wolverine's enhanced senses. Spiderman's spidersense can be tricked by something that's essentially a toy and isn't a threat. Daredevil's limbs are not strong enough to support an extra 200 pounds. And, while Wolverine can walk away from being punched across state lines by Hulk, hitting a still body of water from miles away, being fine and crawling away after being blown up by a rocket launcher reducing him to a skeleton from chest to knees, and (earlier) being completely uneffected by a shotgun blast point blank to his face that reduced it to an Adamantium skull with eyes........ He still goes down to a throat chop..... IN THE SAME ARC.... because that makes sense right?

NO. IT. DOESN'T. no expression

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Ennis couldn't even consistently portray Wolverine how HE thought Wolverine should be portrayed. Nevermind the fact that while Daredevil was taxed to beat Punisher in h2h Ennis had Punisher readily admit that Wolverine would beat the breaks off him in h2h specifically because he could take anything Punisher dished out and keep coming.... But a throat chop..... yeah.... no

THEN of course you have the context Srank discussed with Wolverine actively fighting both Spidey and DD at the same time essentially, AND of course DD's track record against Wolverine getting full nelsoned in 3 panels after trying to sneak attack Logan, or being put in a defensive battle against a Wolverine missing half of his soul and actively fighting mind control, as well as being straight up killed in an alternate universe, or cut across the midsection in one of their first encounters.... That example is as far from Wolverine's typical representation as you could get.

ELEKTRA: ELEKTRA?!?!?! I have no idea why you're even attempting to compare Cass to Elektra. Elektra has straight up merced high class superhumans. She's got mystical abilities that put her so far outside simple hand to hand skill it isn't even funny. She thinks techniques that strain Shang Chi are "simple". She's made light work of Daredevil, a character whom you've just also said is of Cass' calibur. If you think Elektra is on Cass' level then you need to look at her damned respect thread, they are worlds apart and Elektra is better in every way. Then of course there's again, the CONTEXT of basically blindsiding a preoccupied Wolverine from behind, who was being mindcontrolled missing half of his soul, and just healed from being hamburger meat just a while before. And once more you are clearly not familiar with her track record against Wolverine, because while she might be able to hold him for a bit, she can't beat out his healing factor and has indeed lost to him while being amped before.

Then there's Black Panther:....
And Hudlin.......

Hudlin is a semi-racist (or at the least VERY bias) black "activist" who wrote house part movies, and was the former president for the BET. He's also the writer responsible for a number of other ridiculous bull that somehow slipped past the Marvel editorial staff such as

Black Panther> Captain America
Dr. Doom = Racist
Black Panther> Sabretooth (HoM)
Wakanda tech>Latveria tech

But let's ignore that because Panther surprised Wolverine with his speed in CoC once.... Even though he was losing the fight and Wolverine had him dead to rights... no expression

See... I would be content to say that it might be a matchup issue if it wasn't for the fact that Wolverine has been "too fast" for legitimate superhumans. He's been "too fast" for Psylocke trying to mind read him, too fast for a Brood alien using Professor X's powers, too fast for vampires, he's been literally too fast for US the audience to see what he's doing when he's running around at invisible levels cutting hands and arms off assailants...... and aside from all this kind of stuff..... He's so damned fast that he's made Spiderman question his speed, memic him BECAUSE of his speed, and comment about his speed multiple times not to mention that Wolverine was "too fast" for Spiderman to stop him from killing multitudes of attackers.

You seem to think Wolverine has an issue fighting high tier MA's on a regular basis?
He doesn't.
He's Pwned Shang Chi in 3 panels, Daredevil in 3 panels, Iron Fist in 2 pages, Bucky in one move, beat up Silver Samurai while holding back, Shatterstar in 3 panels THREE times and has CRAZY stupid feats like fighting a clone of himself and the angel of death at the same time, disarming Ogun in 2 panels, and putting Junzo in a defensive battle when Junzo was no selling Iron Fist and Luke Cage. I COULD go on but I really shouldn't have to.

Wolverine is not on Cass' level of skill.. He's head and shoulders above it.
Wolverine is not on Cass' level of speed... he's in another category alltogher...


Now go read some Marvel Comics... no expression

OneDumbG0
^ Cassie's faster than Wolverine. Any suggestion to the contrary is laughable. Any suggestion that Wolverine operates on a whole other level of speed over Cassie is ludicrous.

Team wins.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cassie's faster than Wolverine. Any suggestion to the contrary is laughable. Any suggestion that Wolverine operates on a whole other level of speed over Cassie is ludicrous.

Team wins. Interesting. How do you see them putting Logan down though? Aside from pressure points I can't think of another way.

OneDumbG0
^ By knocking him out and/or bleeding him out and/or pinning him down.

juggernaut74
^ Or Blade could shoot his eye socket. angel

Nietzschean
Originally posted by juggernaut74
^ Or Blade could shoot his eye socket. angel Wolverine Blocks it with his claws and ricochets it back to Cass.

OneDumbG0
^ Wolverine's no Cap. And in all seriousness, I can't remember an instance where Wolverine actually did do that with a bullet. Originally posted by juggernaut74
^ Or Blade could shoot his eye socket. angel That would be difficult in a fight. Wolverine's brain has only been penetrated either by sniper ambush while Wolverine's distracted, or when Wolverine's completely pinned down, or via telepathic control, or by someone who could tank his claws with a healing factor for a double k.o.

A blend of the first and last method is the only one with any real chance of happening in this fight.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Wolverine's no Cap. And in all seriousness, I can't remember an instance where Wolverine actually did do that with a bullet. IIRC he did it with lasers. Yet the feat left a bitter taste in my mouth.

OneDumbG0
^ What did he deflect them into? I recall him deflecting lasers accidentally into Hisako. Which would suggest the contrary.

Oh, wait. You mean Cyclops' optic blast into Cap's shield in Origins. Yeah, PIS that he could swing at Cyclops' light speed blast. But setting that aside, I could see Wolverine deflecting them away.

Parmaniac
I'm talking of a feat with a guy who was shooting lasers out of his fingers or something. Maybe Jinzin is around and can post the scan I've seen it a few weeks ago.

Trackz
Never understood why so many people tried to discredit hudlin, much of what of we wrote in in character for T'Challa and Wakanda...I mean T'Challa's first appearance had him taking on the whole Fantastic Four by himself. Priests run had him beating Ironman among other feats. I hate when people say Hudlin is racist because he writes T'Challa the same way other writers portray Captain America, Wolverine, Deadpool, and other top level characters.

Also team wins.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Parmaniac
I'm talking of a feat with a guy who was shooting lasers out of his fingers or something. Maybe Jinzin is around and can post the scan I've seen it a few weeks ago. I think that's where he accidentally deflected them into Hisako.

Also, deflecting lasers with the reflective surface of his claws would be different from deflecting bullets with his claws. Even if he turned them sideways (he'd have to since they'd otherwise slice the bullets), it's far less surface area to work with then a shield. I'm not even sure if DD or Elektra (or Cap for that matter) can deflect bullets into a target without a shield for the same reason.

Nietzschean
My bullet comment was more of a joke as in I thought we were just throwing out random stuff we would want the character to do.. I was poking fun. but, to be serious I only ever seen Wolverine deflect knives, ninja stars, and I guess in vol. 1 he raised his hand to stop a bullet, but the bullet flew through his chin and tagged him in the jaw.

Originally posted by Trackz
Never understood why so many people tried to discredit hudlin, much of what of we wrote in in character for T'Challa and Wakanda...I mean T'Challa's first appearance had him taking on the whole Fantastic Four by himself. Priests run had him beating Ironman among other feats. I hate when people say Hudlin is racist because he writes T'Challa the same way other writers portray Captain America, Wolverine, Deadpool, and other top level characters.

Also team wins.

I dont think he is outright racist but he is bias as all hell.
I cant speak for others but i disliked his take on Black Panther b/c it was something new without any background to it. Even Tony tends to have flash backs and storylines referencing his new tech or armor.

Black Panther just comes out batman style utility belt. that is what pissed me off most of all.. plus the Mephisto thing.

Trackz
Originally posted by Nietzschean
My bullet comment was more of a joke as in I thought we were just throwing out random stuff we would want the character to do.. I was poking fun. but, to be serious I only ever seen Wolverine deflect knives, ninja stars, and I guess in vol. 1 he raised his hand to stop a bullet, but the bullet flew through his chin and tagged him in the jaw.



I dont think he is outright racist but he is bias as all hell.
I cant speak for others but i disliked his take on Black Panther b/c it was something new without any background to it. Even Tony tends to have flash backs and storylines referencing his new tech or armor.

Black Panther just comes out batman style utility belt. that is what pissed me off most of all.. plus the Mephisto thing.

Well the mephisto thing wasn't written by Hudlin:
u16sKK-1oLQ

there's mcduffies take on it. writers have their characters win all the time...i don't think readership is racist but I think they're biased the same way you think these writers are.

That's a completely different topic though.

Team puts down Logan. Hacks him until he's down. Blade could possibly KO wolverine the same way Deadpool managed to (Blade has been gutted/stabbed through before and healed just fine)

Nietzschean
Originally posted by Trackz


Team puts down Logan. Hacks him until he's down. Blade could possibly KO wolverine the same way Deadpool managed to (Blade has been gutted/stabbed through before and healed just fine)

Wolverine let deadpool win as in he hired him to come after him and even than Deadpool had massive one sided prep and was failing even with Logan wanting to lose.

I dont think Blade can stay conscious through the damage Wolverine can cause him even if you give Blade the conscious act of healing which hurts and also drains him as well. I dont think he heals at the same pace as Logan.

I say Logan takes them both out.

Trackz
Originally posted by Nietzschean
Wolverine let deadpool win as in he hired him to come after him and even than Deadpool had massive one sided prep and was failing even with Logan wanting to lose.

I dont think Blade can stay conscious through the damage Wolverine can cause him even if you give Blade the conscious act of healing which hurts and also drains him as well. I dont think he heals at the same pace as Logan.

I say Logan takes them both out.
He let deadpool win, but he was still KO'd from the bullet to the head, that's what i meant. Blade can pull that off, especially if he's got a teammate. Blade's taken all sorts of damage and remained conscious. Blasted miles by Lilith, nuclear facility explosion, being gutted by Hrolf, and stabbed by Dracula. It takes him longer to heal and it slows him but it doesn't necessarily slow him. We saw him take several gun shots to his legs and still out pace his opponents. Punisher shot him in the back and he was fine a couple of seconds later. If Blade falls asleep and lets Logan dice him up then that would definitely put Blade down but with Cassie on his side, they dance around taxing his healing factor until someone finally takes him out.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Trackz
He let deadpool win, but he was still KO'd from the bullet to the head, that's what i meant. Blade can pull that off, especially if he's got a teammate. Blade's taken all sorts of damage and remained conscious. Blasted miles by Lilith, nuclear facility explosion, being gutted by Hrolf, and stabbed by Dracula. It takes him longer to heal and it slows him but it doesn't necessarily slow him. We saw him take several gun shots to his legs and still out pace his opponents. Punisher shot him in the back and he was fine a couple of seconds later. If Blade falls asleep and lets Logan dice him up then that would definitely put Blade down but with Cassie on his side, they dance around taxing his healing factor until someone finally takes him out. Spitfire slashed his face up pretty badly and he healed that up during the fight iirc. And in the respect thread he was standing amidst some massive flames with bare skin exposed. Gotta be some healing at play there.

Trackz
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Spitfire slashed his face up pretty badly and he healed that up during the fight iirc. And in the respect thread he was standing amidst some massive flames with bare skin exposed. Gotta be some healing at play there. The flames are surrounding him because he just survived a nuclear facility exploding and he's walking out of the rubble.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Nietzschean
Wolverine let deadpool win as in he hired him to come after him and even than Deadpool had massive one sided prep and was failing even with Logan wanting to lose.

I dont think Blade can stay conscious through the damage Wolverine can cause him even if you give Blade the conscious act of healing which hurts and also drains him as well. I dont think he heals at the same pace as Logan.

I say Logan takes them both out. Wolverine hired Deadpool to attack him. But that was to draw Daken out. Wolverine's, "Are you kidding me with all this sh1t?!" reactions were genuine though. Which is why he warned Deadpool afterwards from ever coming after him like that again. The victory was tainted for sure, but it's not like Wolverine simply shrugged his shoulders and let Deadpool hit him with everything.

Cassie could stay conscious if Blade was the one distracting/keeping Logan in place.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I imagine you don't think the team doesn't have any chance at all.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cassie's faster than Wolverine. Any suggestion to the contrary is laughable. Any suggestion that Wolverine operates on a whole other level of speed over Cassie is ludicrous.

Team wins. I'd love to see some evidence of this.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by jinzin
I'd love to see some evidence of this. I believe you've already seen Cassie's multiple bullet dodging feats that indisputably happen after the bullet's been fired. This includes times where the bullet is only a few feet away and clearly on a path that would hit Cassie.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
Never understood why so many people tried to discredit hudlin, much of what of we wrote in in character for T'Challa and Wakanda...I mean T'Challa's first appearance had him taking on the whole Fantastic Four by himself. Priests run had him beating Ironman among other feats. I hate when people say Hudlin is racist because he writes T'Challa the same way other writers portray Captain America, Wolverine, Deadpool, and other top level characters.

Also team wins.

Well that's not surprising.

Other writers don't tend to portray characters as X>>>>>AAALLLLL. Well maybe Cap sometimes but that's rare, typically related to patriotism, and usualy in spite of being at disadvantages to extreme degrees.

The way Hudlin wrote his characters came off as caricatures instead.
Storms more concerned with shopping than political/hero affairs? Really...?
Apocalypse uses terms like "Old School"?.... yeah.... that's what Apocalypse would say.

It's not just Hudlin's history, or the way he writes events in contrast with consistency and logic, it's that he's a hack on top of that who has no respect for the characters he IS writing for outside his own BET interpretations... It's insulting.

And those feats you're talking about have context backing them up. Unless of course you're really prepared to defend a position when BP can beat up Iron Man and the Fantastic Four... Yeah that makes sense.

You're right, Black Panther could SHOULD be able to one shot Cap with a gut check, Dr. Doom's totally a racist, and I'm sure Wakanda is more technologically advanced than the whole of latveria...

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I believe you've already seen Cassie's multiple bullet dodging feats that indisputably happen after the bullet's been fired. This includes times where the bullet is only a few feet away and clearly on a path that would hit Cassie. srank already covered this. Not really impressed.

OneDumbG0
^ With laughable and ludicrous reasoning. I wasn't really impressed either.

jinzin
Originally posted by Parmaniac
IIRC he did it with lasers. Yet the feat left a bitter taste in my mouth. He did.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ With laughable and ludicrous reasoning. I wasn't really impressed either. Well to be fair... any reasoning that concludes with Wolverine functioning above the level of a quadriplegic corpse tends to be ludicrous in your opinion... so there's that...

OneDumbG0
^ In my opinion, Wolverine would defeat a quadriplegic corpse by operating above its level... so clearly you're incorrect about my own reasoning. Originally posted by jinzin
He did. You referring to where he accidentally nails Hisako's leg or something else?

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
Team puts down Logan. Hacks him until he's down. Blade could possibly KO wolverine the same way Deadpool managed to (Blade has been gutted/stabbed through before and healed just fine)
When was blade gutted or continued to fight after being run through?

And no... Deadpool had.... dundundundun CONTEXT behind that scenario! Nice try though.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You referring to where he accidentally nails Hisako's leg o something else? No that's the one. It's the incident he was referring to/asking about.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
He let deadpool win, but he was still KO'd from the bullet to the head, that's what i meant. Blade can pull that off, especially if he's got a teammate. Blade's taken all sorts of damage and remained conscious. Blasted miles by Lilith, nuclear facility explosion, being gutted by Hrolf, and stabbed by Dracula. It takes him longer to heal and it slows him but it doesn't necessarily slow him. We saw him take several gun shots to his legs and still out pace his opponents. Punisher shot him in the back and he was fine a couple of seconds later. If Blade falls asleep and lets Logan dice him up then that would definitely put Blade down but with Cassie on his side, they dance around taxing his healing factor until someone finally takes him out.

Sometimes, most of the time he tanks bullets to the head like he does planes and Hulk punches.

This is ridiculous, neither of these characters are going to be "dancing around" Wolverine. Blades already failed to land first blood on a Wolverine who aledgedly got back home from Omega Red... We've seen him fail miserably against Wolverine's speed. DEFINITELY not dancing around anyhing in this fight. While Cass has more of a likelyhood to try this, if bullet dodging's the best feat of speed she's got, then she's sorely out of luck against an opponent like Wolverine who is faster, stronger, and likely more agile.

And Blade's "healing" feats are less impressive than Cap's or Punisher's. Caps fought after taking a shotgun blast to the chest, Punisher went rounds with Daken after breaking his femur. I guess they have super healing too right? Well again.... Cap does but even then it's not the type of healing that's going to keep him in a fight against what Wolverine dishes out.
If you think Blades in ANY condition to take the punishment capible of "killing dozens of men" that Wolverine regularly dishes in fights with someone like Sabretooth, then you are sorely deluded.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by jinzin
Sometimes, most of the time he tanks bullets to the head like he does planes and Hulk punches. Not when it penetrates his brain! stick out tongue Otherwise, yes.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not when it penetrates his brain! stick out tongue Otherwise, yes. *facepalm* lol

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Well that's not surprising.

Other writers don't tend to portray characters as X>>>>>AAALLLLL. Well maybe Cap sometimes but that's rare, typically related to patriotism, and usualy in spite of being at disadvantages to extreme degrees.

The way Hudlin wrote his characters came off as caricatures instead.
Storms more concerned with shopping than political/hero affairs? Really...?
Apocalypse uses terms like "Old School"?.... yeah.... that's what Apocalypse would say.

It's not just Hudlin's history, or the way he writes events in contrast with consistency and logic, it's that he's a hack on top of that who has no respect for the characters he IS writing for outside his own BET interpretations... It's insulting.

And those feats you're talking about have context backing them up. Unless of course you're really prepared to defend a position when BP can beat up Iron Man and the Fantastic Four... Yeah that makes sense.

You're right, Black Panther could SHOULD be able to one shot Cap with a gut check, Dr. Doom's totally a racist, and I'm sure Wakanda is more technologically advanced than the whole of latveria...
T'Challa wasn't portrayed as better than anyone really, but Hudlin did make a point to show that he is equal to characters of Steve's stature. I mean T'Challa beat a load of people but was also almost choked out by Doom.

the shopping instance was only during her wedding, no? after which she and t'challa went around the globe meeting with political leaders. she verbally whipped reed for his position in civil war.

I never denied their context, I'm just saying T'Challa has always been a legitimate threat to anyone, whether it be through his intelligence, technological prowess, or sheer physicality.

You're welcome to your own opinion though. It's fine if you don't like the writer, what occurred in that run is legitimate though.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
When was blade gutted or continued to fight after being run through?

And no... Deadpool had.... dundundundun CONTEXT behind that scenario! Nice try though.
Sword fight with Hrolf he was slashed through the stomach.

In his own series, Dracula stabbed him in the back with his sword. Blade pulled it out and was fine.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Sometimes, most of the time he tanks bullets to the head like he does planes and Hulk punches.

This is ridiculous, neither of these characters are going to be "dancing around" Wolverine. Blades already failed to land first blood on a Wolverine who aledgedly got back home from Omega Red... We've seen him fail miserably against Wolverine's speed. DEFINITELY not dancing around anyhing in this fight. While Cass has more of a likelyhood to try this, if bullet dodging's the best feat of speed she's got, then she's sorely out of luck against an opponent like Wolverine who is faster, stronger, and likely more agile.

And Blade's "healing" feats are less impressive than Cap's or Punisher's. Caps fought after taking a shotgun blast to the chest, Punisher went rounds with Daken after breaking his femur. I guess they have super healing too right? Well again.... Cap does but even then it's not the type of healing that's going to keep him in a fight against what Wolverine dishes out.
If you think Blades in ANY condition to take the punishment capible of "killing dozens of men" that Wolverine regularly dishes in fights with someone like Sabretooth, then you are sorely deluded.

depends on where they hit him.

he did land first blood. wolverine managed to claw and Blade's coat, then Blade landed the first strike that drew blood. I'm not getting into everyones interpretation of that Guggenheim fight again though.

Blade has stated super healing, it's been demonstrated. Not sure how many feats you want, he has less than 300 comics. I'm not addressing this "Blade isn't a real vampire" argument. It's asinine. Did I, or did I not state that if Blade let Wolverine go wild on him that the fight would be over fast?

Daredevil1
Logan is definitely faster then Cass. Nightwing himself edged Cass in a race and Logan is faster then both of them.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Trackz


Blade has stated super healing, it's been demonstrated. Not sure how many feats you want, he has less than 300 comics. I actually agree with this. Compared to guys like Logan and Deadpool Blade has 1/10th of the appearances. As far as I can tell there isn't any feats to contradict him not having a healing factor. That Hrolf scene you are talking about was a descent display of healing imo. His gut was slashed pretty badly iirc as he was downed and holding his gut. I also think there was artistic lines on his hand indicating he was shaking from the slash. Also in the Spitfire fight he was gashed pretty deep but by the time the fight was over his wounds were gone. Granted not Logan level healing but it's there.

KMC USER
dont give up jinzin fight back!!! you can do it jinzin fight back

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
T'Challa wasn't portrayed as better than anyone really, but Hudlin did make a point to show that he is equal to characters of Steve's stature. I mean T'Challa beat a load of people but was also almost choked out by Doom.

the shopping instance was only during her wedding, no? after which she and t'challa went around the globe meeting with political leaders. she verbally whipped reed for his position in civil war.

I never denied their context, I'm just saying T'Challa has always been a legitimate threat to anyone, whether it be through his intelligence, technological prowess, or sheer physicality.

You're welcome to your own opinion though. It's fine if you don't like the writer, what occurred in that run is legitimate though.

Knocking out CAPTAIN THE F*** AMERICA with a single gut punch.... IS BETTER. He FLAT OUT STATED Wakanda was better than Latveria. This isn't up to interpretation. His writing is so wildly bias it undercuts his credibility with his use of the character. It's that simple. And no, the several uncharictaristics incidents I described (And the were plenty more) are NOT legitimate when they are legitimately discredited or in contrast to the consistency of the rest of Marvel Canon.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
Sword fight with Hrolf he was slashed through the stomach.

In his own series, Dracula stabbed him in the back with his sword. Blade pulled it out and was fine. Scans?

jinzin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Logan is definitely faster then Cass. Nightwing himself edged Cass in a race and Logan is faster then both of them. Pretty much thumbsup

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
depends on where they hit him.

Wolverine operating at his best or remotely at his typical shruggs off brick level punishment. No, it does not matter where they hit him.

You're talking about a character that recovers from lethal damage in seconds, a pressure point is not lethal, a pressure point is typically most/onl effective when the pressure is actually being applied. Not sure where you think they're going to be able to produce more damage than a single punch from Hulk, but that simply isn't the case.

Originally posted by Trackz
he did land first blood. wolverine managed to claw and Blade's coat, then Blade landed the first strike that drew blood. I'm not getting into everyones interpretation of that Guggenheim fight again though.
Figure of speech dude. Blade isn't dancing around shit.

Originally posted by Trackz
Blade has stated super healing, it's been demonstrated. Not sure how many feats you want, he has less than 300 comics. I'm not addressing this "Blade isn't a real vampire" argument. It's asinine. Did I, or did I not state that if Blade let Wolverine go wild on him that the fight would be over fast?
Beast has super healing, Spiderman has super healing, Steve Rogers has super healing, and not a single one of those characters has a healing ability that runs to a degree that would matter one shit in a fight with Wolverine. NONE of them can afford to take his type of punishment. Neither can Blade.
Bottem line is that Blade ISN'T a real vampire, and we haven't seen a clear depiction of his healing factor at work in ANY impressive degree. People think him "healing" scratches on his face from Spitfire is something to be proud about if that's even what was meant to be demonstrated. It isn't.
It's not about how many feats I want, it's about what kind of feats there are and what's clearly being demonstrated. We've seen Namor be run through with a sword take the thing out and kill an enemy, we've seen him get run through by Wolverine several times, get up and be completely healed minutes later. As far as I'm aware Blade has NOTHING on that level even and EVEN THEN.... THAT level of healing STILL isn't enough to legitimately compete with Wolverine's offensive capabilites.
And yes you did say that Blade would go down to Wolverine if Wolverine ran wild on him, but that statement makes it sound as if Wolverine needs to when that's the farthest thing from the case. Wolverine gutchecks Blade the way he's done to Namor, Blades basically out of the fight. He only needs one good hit and Blade's not good enough to avoid it. Not many are.

Deadline
Originally posted by jinzin

Beast has super healing, Spiderman has super healing, Steve Rogers has super healing, and not a single one of those characters has a healing ability that runs to a degree that would matter one shit in a fight with Wolverine. NONE of them can afford to take his type of punishment. Neither can Blade.

With the exception of Beast none of those guys have an official HF. I suspect Beats HF may help but im not too sure.

Originally posted by jinzin


Bottem line is that Blade ISN'T a real vampire, and we haven't seen a clear depiction of his healing factor at work in ANY impressive degree. People think him "healing" scratches on his face from Spitfire is something to be proud about if that's even what was meant to be demonstrated. It isn't.
It's not about how many feats I want, it's about what kind of feats there are and what's clearly being demonstrated. We've seen Namor be run through with a sword take the thing out and kill an enemy, we've seen him get run through by Wolverine several times, get up and be completely healed minutes later. As far as I'm aware Blade has NOTHING on that level even and EVEN THEN.... THAT level of healing STILL isn't enough to legitimately compete with Wolverine's offensive capabilites.
And yes you did say that Blade would go down to Wolverine if Wolverine ran wild on him, but that statement makes it sound as if Wolverine needs to when that's the farthest thing from the case. Wolverine gutchecks Blade the way he's done to Namor, Blades basically out of the fight. He only needs one good hit and Blade's not good enough to avoid it. Not many are.

O god forget it.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Knocking out CAPTAIN THE F*** AMERICA with a single gut punch.... IS BETTER. He FLAT OUT STATED Wakanda was better than Latveria. This isn't up to interpretation. His writing is so wildly bias it undercuts his credibility with his use of the character. It's that simple. And no, the several uncharictaristics incidents I described (And the were plenty more) are NOT legitimate when they are legitimately discredited or in contrast to the consistency of the rest of Marvel Canon. Are you thinking of Steve's fight with T'Chaka? T'Challas father? I think you are...we were only treated to a montage of that fight, not the whole thing.

The fight hudlin worte had T'Challa coming out on top only because Steve was still healing from his wounds and that was stated right after.

T'Challa is a king the same way Namor is, all of them are going to speak highly of their kingdom. If you haven't noticed, pride and hubris are critical parts of T'Challas character. Not only that, but none of Hudlins run has the panther as powerful as he was during Priests run. I'm thinking you haven't followed much of the Black Panther. He's always been a top tier character and Wakanda has always been a threat.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Scans?

They're in the respect thread under healing feats.
They're from Blade #12 (2007) and Blade #5 (1999)

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine operating at his best or remotely at his typical shruggs off brick level punishment. No, it does not matter where they hit him.

You're talking about a character that recovers from lethal damage in seconds, a pressure point is not lethal, a pressure point is typically most/onl effective when the pressure is actually being applied. Not sure where you think they're going to be able to produce more damage than a single punch from Hulk, but that simply isn't the case.


Figure of speech dude. Blade isn't dancing around shit.


Beast has super healing, Spiderman has super healing, Steve Rogers has super healing, and not a single one of those characters has a healing ability that runs to a degree that would matter one shit in a fight with Wolverine. NONE of them can afford to take his type of punishment. Neither can Blade.
Bottem line is that Blade ISN'T a real vampire, and we haven't seen a clear depiction of his healing factor at work in ANY impressive degree. People think him "healing" scratches on his face from Spitfire is something to be proud about if that's even what was meant to be demonstrated. It isn't.
It's not about how many feats I want, it's about what kind of feats there are and what's clearly being demonstrated. We've seen Namor be run through with a sword take the thing out and kill an enemy, we've seen him get run through by Wolverine several times, get up and be completely healed minutes later. As far as I'm aware Blade has NOTHING on that level even and EVEN THEN.... THAT level of healing STILL isn't enough to legitimately compete with Wolverine's offensive capabilites.
And yes you did say that Blade would go down to Wolverine if Wolverine ran wild on him, but that statement makes it sound as if Wolverine needs to when that's the farthest thing from the case. Wolverine gutchecks Blade the way he's done to Namor, Blades basically out of the fight. He only needs one good hit and Blade's not good enough to avoid it. Not many are.

I was talking about gunshots, not pressure points.

Yea, it means who deals the first wound...which was Blade. I get what you're trying to say though.

Cornell clearly wrote in his script that by the time Blade and Spitfire finish their fight that the wounds should be healed. So that's exactly what he intended. Blade taken gunshots and been blasted miles. Tanked explosions and all of that. Blade was literally run through by Dracula, and he took the sword out and attacked him. HE was stabbed in the back by the Taker of Heads, he took the knife out and cut the monters eye out. There are plenty of feats, check the respect thread. I'm not addressing this argument when I've seen the scans and I've had editors and writers tell me that Blade heals like a vampire. I honestly don't care if you believe that the Punisher has better healing feats. That has nothing to do with the fact that Blade has taken excessive damage and healed in seconds. If Wolverine gets a couple of claws/stabs in, it's not going to put Blade down. An excessive amount sire, but we've never seen Blade pass out from bloodloss. You can keep thinking this if you want that doesn't change the fact that he's shown his healing and it has been confirmed by every writer in the last damn decade.

jinzin
Originally posted by Deadline
With the exception of Beast none of those guys have an official HF. I suspect Beats HF may help but im not too sure.



O god forget it.

Originally posted by Deadline
With the exception of Beast none of those guys have an official HF. I suspect Beats HF may help but im not too sure.
What do you mean "official"? This isn't some case where I'm arbitrarily bringing up nonsense to pad out an argument. They have shown displays of healing factor feats and the abilities have been described.... AND, more than once. Hell more than a handful of times. It doesn't get more official than that. So... way to try and much up an argument? erm

And no, Beasts HF doesn't do shit. 3 times he's been cut up by Wolverine's claws and 3 times he's gone down. Just isn't fast enough to keep him competing in the moment against much more than superficial damage.. kinda like Blade.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
Are you thinking of Steve's fight with T'Chaka? T'Challas father? I think you are...we were only treated to a montage of that fight, not the whole thing.

The fight hudlin worte had T'Challa coming out on top only because Steve was still healing from his wounds and that was stated right after.

T'Challa is a king the same way Namor is, all of them are going to speak highly of their kingdom. If you haven't noticed, pride and hubris are critical parts of T'Challas character. Not only that, but none of Hudlins run has the panther as powerful as he was during Priests run. I'm thinking you haven't followed much of the Black Panther. He's always been a top tier character and Wakanda has always been a threat. Yes that's the fight I'm talking about. Not the civil war one. Never said he wasn't a threat or that wakanda isn't a thread. But no black panther should be knocking rogers out with a gut check, and Wakanda isn't> Latveria. Iirc it wasn't even BP that stated that.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Yes that's the fight I'm talking about. Not the civil war one. Never said he wasn't a threat or that wakanda isn't a thread. But no black panther should be knocking rogers out with a gut check, and Wakanda isn't> Latveria. Iirc it wasn't even BP that stated that.
1. That was a wold war 2 Captain America, Steve wasn't nearly at the level of skill he currently is...not only that Hudlin wasn't even the one who penned the original fight, that was a flashback to a fight that had been written by Christopher Priest.
2. Wakanda has managed to fend off attacks from Doom twice, however Wakandans are proud people, I'm not sure having one of their people say that is evidence that the writer is biased...it's perfectly in character.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
I was talking about gunshots, not pressure points.

Yea, it means who deals the first wound...which was Blade. I get what you're trying to say though. Then why skew the point? Wolverine tagged Blade first. It's that simple, if he was trying to draw blood he would draw blood. And no..... just no.... Wolverine routinely runs through multiples of assailants with automatic gunfire pouring down on him. Bullets sure as shit aren't about to do the trick. And if you think they are... AND that they are for a majority, then again, you've deluded yourself.

Originally posted by Trackz
Cornell clearly wrote in his script that by the time Blade and Spitfire finish their fight that the wounds should be healed. So that's exactly what he intended. I kinda remember that coming up before... got a link to that? In any case healing from scratches is fine, but it's not impressive. And certainly not helpful against Wolverine.


Originally posted by Trackz
Blade taken gunshots and been blasted miles. Tanked explosions and all of that. again... this is all stuff that characters from the Punisher, to DD, to Captain America to Spiderman have taken. Not all of them have healing factors and the ones that do, don't heal on a level that matters vs. Wolverine. Has far as being blasted "miles" away that's pure conjecture. It never said he got blasted miles away and it certainly doesn't appear to be miles away if you know one damned thing about scale. no expression

Originally posted by Trackz
Blade was literally run through by Dracula, and he took the sword out and attacked him. HE was stabbed in the back by the Taker of Heads, he took the knife out and cut the monters eye out. There are plenty of feats, check the respect thread. I'm not addressing this argument when I've seen the scans and I've had editors and writers tell me that Blade heals like a vampire. I honestly don't care if you believe that the Punisher has better healing feats. That has nothing to do with the fact that Blade has taken excessive damage and healed in seconds. If Wolverine gets a couple of claws/stabs in, it's not going to put Blade down. An excessive amount sire, but we've never seen Blade pass out from bloodloss. You can keep thinking this if you want that doesn't change the fact that he's shown his healing and it has been confirmed by every writer in the last damn decade.

What are you on about? You're acting like I'm arguing that Blade can't heal at all... I'm NOT. I've already noted his healing rate.... I'm just telling you it isn't fast enough to matter against Wolverine. The times Blade has been run through he drops to a knee and needs time to get back to his feet. Same thing happened when he was "gutted" for a moment. And thats against one weapon. What? Do you think he'll do better somehow being cut or stabbed by 3? He won't. It's this simple; Blade can't take having his face stabbed, he can't take having his neck cut, he can't take getting claw punched in the heart, he can't take having his arteries shredded, any one of a NUMBER in the myriad of attacks Wolverine could/would potentially land basically end up with Blade out of the fight. Even more superficial attacks would have Blade down for a few moments he simply can not afford here. His healing factor isn't more impressive than Namor's. It's not more impressive than Beasts. IMO it's not even more impressive than Caps. He will not be able to compete with Wolverine even if it was just a blow for blow matchup. One jab to the head and he's finished.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
1. That was a wold war 2 Captain America, Steve wasn't nearly at the level of skill he currently is...not only that Hudlin wasn't even the one who penned the original fight, that was a flashback to a fight that had been written by Christopher Priest.
2. Wakanda has managed to fend off attacks from Doom twice, however Wakandans are proud people, I'm not sure having one of their people say that is evidence that the writer is biased...it's perfectly in character. I'm not even talking about skill! I'm talking about his phsyiology which is superhuman, and his armor which stops bullets and Fenris bites. And of course there's his consistency... He's the guy who's been used as a wrecking ball to bring down an apartment building... One gutshot does not put him down.... no expression

He IS biased I can't believe you're still willing to argue about this.... well I can actually... it isn't surprising given your history as well.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Then why skew the point? Wolverine tagged Blade first. It's that simple, if he was trying to draw blood he would draw blood. And no..... just no.... Wolverine routinely runs through multiples of assailants with automatic gunfire pouring down on him. Bullets sure as shit aren't about to do the trick. And if you think they are... AND that they are for a majority, then again, you've deluded yourself.

I kinda remember that coming up before... got a link to that? In any case healing from scratches is fine, but it's not impressive. And certainly not helpful against Wolverine.


again... this is all stuff that characters from the Punisher, to DD, to Captain America to Spiderman have taken. Not all of them have healing factors and the ones that do, don't heal on a level that matters vs. Wolverine. Has far as being blasted "miles" away that's pure conjecture. It never said he got blasted miles away and it certainly doesn't appear to be miles away if you know one damned thing about scale. no expression



What are you on about? You're acting like I'm arguing that Blade can't heal at all... I'm NOT. I've already noted his healing rate.... I'm just telling you it isn't fast enough to matter against Wolverine. The times Blade has been run through he drops to a knee and needs time to get back to his feet. Same thing happened when he was "gutted" for a moment. And thats against one weapon. What? Do you think he'll do better somehow being cut or stabbed by 3? He won't. It's this simple; Blade can't take having his face stabbed, he can't take having his neck cut, he can't take getting claw punched in the heart, he can't take having his arteries shredded, any one of a NUMBER in the myriad of attacks Wolverine could/would potentially land basically end up with Blade out of the fight. Even more superficial attacks would have Blade down for a few moments he simply can not afford here. His healing factor isn't more impressive than Namor's. It's not more impressive than Beasts. IMO it's not even more impressive than Caps. He will not be able to compete with Wolverine even if it was just a blow for blow matchup. One jab to the head and he's finished.

He attempted to wound Blade and missed, then Blade skewered him. If you want to say he tagged Blade first fine.

He's been put down by bullets plenty of times. Deadpool and Mystique have managed to shoot him dead. IT's all about getting a good shot. I don't believe anyone can put him down just by shooting him and praying for the best.

It should be somewhere in the respect thread. Apparently you're going to disregard it anyway so I'm not going to look for it.

Punisher at least has needed time to heal, heck in Punisher last fight with Vulture he needed months to heal from the damage. Captain America needed weeks to heal from the damage Ironman did to him. These guys have some good feats, but there's really no point in bringing them up. It doesn't change the fact Blade has no sold bullets and stabbings. One claw swipe from Wolverine isn't going to put him down.

Blade has had his throat ripped open by vampires and he heals from that. Even when he was written as purely a dhampir with minor healing abilities he was able to take being stabbed and having his throat bitten by vampires. He was stabbed in the back and he took the knife out and used it to defend himself. All before he had legitimate vampire abilities. He doesn't heal as fast as deadpool or wolverine, he also doesn't allow himself to take the amount of damage that they leave themselves open to. When Hrolf slashed his gut open, he had healed the wound before Hrolf could decapitate him and healed quickly enough to strike him before Hrolf could get another move. Blade takes seconds to heal and when Dracula stabbed him he fell and pulled the sword out. It wasn't as if he was completely out of the battle. Blade has the feats to take being stabbed/slashed. If Wolverine gets ina couple of good hits then yes the fight would be over, but Blade is good enough to adequately defend himself and deal Wolverine more damage seeing as he has ranged weapons and Cassie on his side as well.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not even talking about skill! I'm talking about his phsyiology which is superhuman, and his armor which stops bullets and Fenris bites. And of course there's his consistency... He's the guy who's been used as a wrecking ball to bring down an apartment building... One gutshot does not put him down.... no expression

He IS biased I can't believe you're still willing to argue about this.... well I can actually... it isn't surprising given your history as well.

1. As I already stated the fight that you have a problem with wasn't even written by Hudlin, it was written by Christopher Priest and it was only alluded to by Hudlin.

Every point you've tried to argue has been either a bit off or wrong so I don't see how. He writes T'Challa as a top tier character, nothing more and nothing less. You want to talk about bias? How about writers who let Captain America punch out the hulk (has happened more than once) or let Wolverine take on Gladiator or Thor...

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by jinzin
Bottem line is that Blade ISN'T a real vampire, and we haven't seen a clear depiction of his healing factor at work in ANY impressive degree. What exactly do you mean by this underlined part? Because the feats listed so far prove that Blade has an accelerated healing factor that makes him virtually immortal and capable of surviving otherwise surely fatal damage. And Blade is better than the average vampire. Maybe not better than Dracula, but easily better than the average vampire in almost all physical aspects.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
He attempted to wound Blade and missed, then Blade skewered him. If you want to say he tagged Blade first fine.

What the f**k?
Wolverine did not miss.... and he SURE AS HELL didn't "miss" twice, much less with an opponent who was jumping in the air coming straight at him. no expression And you call my arguments asinine?

Look... I realize the Guggenheim fight didn't bode well for Blade but claiming that things ended in a stalemate, or supporting that Blade "let Wolverine go" is already enough of a reach, you don't need to continue to grasp at straws to save face here. It's just making you look ridiculous... More-so than usual.

Wolverine was not out to kill Blade, this much is CLEARLY obvious, he had several opportunities to land flush shots on Blade and did not take advantage of a single one of them. This isn't a matter up for debate and frankly, claiming that Wolverine was legitimately trying to skewer Blade in that fight with those first two shots and "MISSED" is not only ridden with fanboyism but also downright insulting to Wolverine's character and severely lowballing him. If that's your contention, then I need to remind you about Blade going down to one bullet to his kevlar clad chest just pages before that happened... If you want to lowball that is... tsk tsk.

Originally posted by Trackz
He's been put down by bullets plenty of times. Deadpool and Mystique have managed to shoot him dead. IT's all about getting a good shot. I don't believe anyone can put him down just by shooting him and praying for the best.

We have to go down this road? AGAIN?! Of course we do! Because Blade needs to stand a snowballs chance in hell of taking Wolverine down without a plot device. big grin

Yyyyyyeah no. Wolverine's gone down to bullets... a couple handfuls of times actually... sure. But he's stood up to bullets FAAAAAAARRRRRR more often... And these two examples that you CONTINUE to cite are again RIDDEN with circumstances that allowed them to happen!

The Mystique fight you're referring to for instance... During the get Mystique storyline it's explicitly stated that Wolverine went chasing after Mystique for 3 days straight with no food, sleep or water the majority of that chase taking place in the desert which we already KNOW has an effect on his healing factor. He was caught up in an explosion that leveled a Mosque, he was shot by multiple men with heavy arms automatic fire to a KO, he was inside an explosive car literally packed with C4 and reduced to a skeleton, and then when he finally got within range of Mystique before that fight even started she was shooting the hell out of him with clips of automatic gunfire AND explosive iirc. Lest you think that Mystique who has been dropped by a single claw slash from Sabretooth is really good enough to drag a fight with Wolverine on that long... (no... we're not even entertaining that nonsense). THE CONTEXT MATTERS. And even then! Mystique has unique physical abilities that allow her to take/whether and distribute damage in a much more efficient manner than characters with Blade level of healing and better. Just because Mystique was able to close a fight with a weathered Wolverine like that doesn't dictate Blade could do the same with a Wolverine starting at 100%. Such an argument is beyond ludicrous and again insulting to anyone who actually read the story.

The Deadpool fight... Really??? This is pretty much the same in that Deadpool hit Wolverine with everything he could get ahold of and barely came out of that... in a fight Wolverine himself literally INTENDED to lose. And again, Deadpool has a MUCH MUCH better healing factor than Blade does. His ability to withstand punishment and find openings because of it allows for all sorts of integers that Blade simply couldn't count on having in a fight with Wolverine.

Bottem line? Wolverine's been put down by bullets sure... But that's NOT EVEN CLOSE to what typically happens in a Wolverine fight. For every time he's been put down by bullets, there's several times he's taken worse and been fine. A bullet to the brain might to the trick but I remind you there's also counter evidence of Wolverine getting up immediately after such punishment, not going down at all, actually having bone in the back of his eye, etc etc. And the majority of the time that he's gone down to a bullet to the eye include HEAPS of context you're virtually ignoring WILL NOT and CAN NOT apply to Blade in a fight with Wolverine.

Counting on this kind of strategy for a win against Wolverine is a SERIOUS reach and ignores 99.9% of the rest of his career.... if that's the case, Blade can't take the force of a bullet to his kevlar clad chest.

Originally posted by Trackz
It should be somewhere in the respect thread. Apparently you're going to disregard it anyway so I'm not going to look for it.
Why would I ask for proof of the script when I've already stated that it looked to be what happened on panel? confused

You think Blade's a threat, I admit that he is.
You said he has a healing factor, I agree that he does.
At what point in this debate am I being unreasonable here?



Originally posted by Trackz
Punisher at least has needed time to heal, heck in Punisher last fight with Vulture he needed months to heal from the damage. Captain America needed weeks to heal from the damage Ironman did to him. These guys have some good feats, but there's really no point in bringing them up. It doesn't change the fact Blade has no sold bullets and stabbings. One claw swipe from Wolverine isn't going to put him down. Punisher healing from damage is not something I'm arguing about. When I'm bringing up Punisher in this thread, it's to demonstrate that a character's ability to stand up to and fight in spite of damage is not necessarily evidence of a superior healing factor. It's said that a broken femur is the most painful injury a person can endure. Punisher not only had a broken femur but fought a superhuman regardless of it. He took a serious fight to Daken with sheer grit and balls. It's not some impressive display of healing factor. That doesn't mean Punisher is going to no sell being gutted by Wolverine or take a punched from a claws-out Wolvie without missing a beat, to insist otherwise is almost insane.
Captain America... The guy was virtually pounded on by Iron Man, multiple fractures and contusions. He healed injuries that would take a normal person months (half a year up to a full year) just to recover to a stable state and healed to a full bill of health in about several weeks. Hell, the dude was already fighting and sparring a week or two after the beating took place. This guy has recovered from being shot in the head. His enhanced healing ability is impressive and we've seen him tank stabbings and being shot and continue to fight with ease, it doesn't mean he can take the damage Wolverine dishes out.... Even without his claws Wolverine was able to plant a blow on him that induced a near instant blood clot. Cap can't sustain his damage output. Neither can Blade...
HONESTLY.... HONESTLY..... you REALLY believe that Blade simply gonna fight through this type of damage?

1. http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/6209/beastoneshotgr6.jpg
2. http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5161/woliecable2ck6.jpg (non 616)
3. http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5937/cabledeadpool440023fk0.jpg
4.http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3332/gamoraic2eo5.jpg
5. http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3479/ld4hv3.jpg
6. http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5170/easilybeatsdeathstrike3tz0.jpg
7. http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/543/beatsadmantiumsabes5pr4.jpg
8. http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9798/shiva2ro6.jpg
9. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5008/shiva12gv3.jpg
10. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1141/sniktfight29ol2.jpg
11. http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4338/terrorinc4mu7.jpg
12. http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4995/venomb4qm6.png
13. http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5808/wolverine42004fh4.jpg
14. http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1156/43578353hz1.jpg
15. http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/9306/hulk340pg16viciouscirclod4.jpg
16. http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8013/shredderfight4ek2.jpg
17. http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8819/wolverinexk4.png
18. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7615/mimic3dk5.jpg
19. http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7402/newinamor5dn2.jpg
20. http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2346/ff7418aa4.jpg
Keep in mind that this is just a handful of examples that better illustrate the type of the damage wolverine can produce when his claws aren't being nerfed for the sake of the story or for the sake of keeping characters alive. One slash can rend through entire frames, or chop off limbs with ease. Even if all Wolverine was doing was wildly flailing his arms about Blade would have to be fighting a mindful and defensive battle to keep from being seriously harmed. And most of/all of these examples include characters who have healing factors/repair mechanisms on par of superior to Blades. A number of them have skill levels around Blades league as well.

Again, when Wolverine's claws aren't being nerfed, the damage he can do with a single flush attack could/would be too much for Blade to sustain and keep himself competitive with Wolverine in an in-fight scenario.
Kinda like this: http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/565/whatifnamorwt4.jpg

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
Blade has had his throat ripped open by vampires and he heals from that. Even when he was written as purely a dhampir with minor healing abilities he was able to take being stabbed and having his throat bitten by vampires. He was stabbed in the back and he took the knife out and used it to defend himself. All before he had legitimate vampire abilities. He doesn't heal as fast as deadpool or wolverine, he also doesn't allow himself to take the amount of damage that they leave themselves open to. When Hrolf slashed his gut open, he had healed the wound before Hrolf could decapitate him and healed quickly enough to strike him before Hrolf could get another move. Blade takes seconds to heal and when Dracula stabbed him he fell and pulled the sword out. It wasn't as if he was completely out of the battle. Blade has the feats to take being stabbed/slashed. Again... what are you going on about? Making a bunch of statements about some things that Blade has done doesn't amount for much in this thread unless those examples relate specifically to what we're talking about. I'm not arguing whether or not Blade can heal, I'm arguing about to what degree that healing works..or doesn't. And bringing up a couple of examples where one stab drops Blade to the ground for a semi-extended period of time (and keep in mind in a fight seconds last for what seems like minutes, and that's to humans without any superhuman reflexes/attributes) especially one where he gets dropped by a small knife to the back of his shoulder for half a page is not a good example of Blade having a healing factor good enough to sustain the blows Wolverine's dishing out in a fight. The best evidence you have thus far is Blades fight with Hrolf, but the simple fact of that matter is that the damage we see being done is a panel so small and lacking in detail that it doesn't really demonstrate the amount of damage done, nor does it show the rate of healing as the subsequent panels never go to show blade's torso again iirc. And once more, it draws into this pitfall where guys like Punisher and Daredevil have taken this kind of damage and gone on in spite of it. It isn't evidence of a healing factor (keeping in mind I'm not saying that Blade doesn't have one) ... it sure as hell isn't evidence of the rate of a healing factor.

We've seen characters like Batman and Elektra draw on energy to close up bullet holes in two or three panels, in a laps of a few moments. The closest thing we've seen for Blade's rate of healing typically stems from superficial damage like Spitfires scratches or unclear artwork which is shrug-worthy at best. erm

If Blade can have a hole shot through his stomach, or have his throat slit, or lose a limb and continue to fight unhindered in that moment, then please produce that evidence. I've never seen it.

Originally posted by Trackz
If Wolverine gets ina couple of good hits then yes the fight would be over, but Blade is good enough to adequately defend himself and deal Wolverine more damage seeing as he has ranged weapons and Cassie on his side as well.

This fight essentially boils down to one basic thing, what Wolverine can take. His damage soak and rate of healing are so ridiculous that Wolverine's essentially a broken character when it comes to most melee fights, and no, 1 sword, a handgun, some knives and a few stakes are not going to tip the scales in Blade's favor against this kind of monumental advantage. Because of Wolverine's bones sctructure coupled with his innate power, Blade can only do very superficial damage to Wolverine for the most part, and for the most part, if Blade wants to do more than that he needs to draw himself in close, which your skewed examples have already demonstrated is practically a suicide mission. And, unfortunately, 1 semi-generic street level MA isn't going to add a heaping advantage against Wolverine here either.
Even if Wolverine was robbed of his speed, strength, and skill... even if all Cass and Blade were fighting here was an Adamantiumized Madcap for all intents and purposes, they would STILL be fighting a predominantly defensive battle simply based on the fact that Wolverine can take SOOOOO much more than they can, and he can dish out SOOOOO much more than they can. That's a sizable advantage that Wolverine has over most street levels and it still shocks me it isn't brought up more it's so obvious. But..... Wolverine DOES have his strength, speed and skillset and because those are also all slight advantages in his favor, Blade has to fight a near flawless battle to even have a chance of being successful here.

Getting a "couple good hits in" is Wolverine's WORST case scenario when he's operating nowhere NEAR his best, or even remotely near his typical. That's the most Blade could hope for... and frankly, it didn't work for Mystique in your example, and she had damn near every advantage possible before the fight even got underway. Your argument here for Blade is basically that you feel he won't allow himself to take damage..... if he's within Wolverine's range, and he will be.... the dude isn't going to have a choice. no expression

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
1. As I already stated the fight that you have a problem with wasn't even written by Hudlin, it was written by Christopher Priest and it was only alluded to by Hudlin.

Every point you've tried to argue has been either a bit off or wrong so I don't see how. He writes T'Challa as a top tier character, nothing more and nothing less. You want to talk about bias? How about writers who let Captain America punch out the hulk (has happened more than once) or let Wolverine take on Gladiator or Thor...

Umm no. The only thing I might be mistaken about it the Cap fight... I'll have to go back and check, I seem to remember Priest leaving it open ended on how the fight concluded whereas Hudlin decided it ended with the gut punch.

I don't condone Cap KOing Gladiator.
Wolverine's a brick slayer that's what he does. If bricks try to fight him in melee it's generally not a good idea. That's consistent with his entire career.... I also don't condone Wolverine fighting Glads or Thor using the full extent of their abilities.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What exactly do you mean by this underlined part? Because the feats listed so far prove that Blade has an accelerated healing factor that makes him virtually immortal and capable of surviving otherwise surely fatal damage. And Blade is better than the average vampire. Maybe not better than Dracula, but easily better than the average vampire in almost all physical aspects.

Blade isn't a real vampire, furthermore, he has an absence of evidence to show a myriad of different abilities that vampires have been shown to posses. And physically speaking, Blades typically weaker than a large number of vamps. Like I stated before, I'm not arguing that he has a healing factor. Pretty sure it's been flat out stated he has one. In any case Blade's origins are hardly the matter at hand. I shouldn't have taken the bait on that one as it's hardly a relevant point.

juggernaut74
Not all vamps share the same abilities though. Blade has the "traditional" powers like speed, strength, staminda, healing, senses etc. He's shown these traits.

OneDumbG0
^ Agreed. thumb up Originally posted by jinzin
Blade isn't a real vampire, furthermore, he has an absence of evidence to show a myriad of different abilities that vampires have been shown to posses. And physically speaking, Blades typically weaker than a large number of vamps. Like I stated before, I'm not arguing that he has a healing factor. Pretty sure it's been flat out stated he has one. In any case Blade's origins are hardly the matter at hand. I shouldn't have taken the bait on that one as it's hardly a relevant point. I still don't understand "not a real vampire." What is he, if not a vampire that's immune to typical vampire banes? And from everything I've seen and everything that's been mentioned, Blade is at least as strong, agile, durable and immortal as any other vampire. All of their strengths (physical anyway) and none of their weaknesses.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Agreed. thumb up I still don't understand "not a real vampire." What is he, if not a vampire that's immune to typical vampire banes? And from everything I've seen and everything that's been mentioned, Blade is at least as strong, agile, durable and immortal as any other vampire. All of their strengths (physical anyway) and none of their weaknesses.

He's a dhampir. Sure Blade has a short list of generic vamp abilities but there's also a list of things he can't do. He can't compel people. He can't control animals. He can' fly. He can't shape shift. He can't become mist. He can't control weather. He requires oxygen. His strength class is of a middle to lower level compared to more notable vamps being what 1-2 tons. And his healing factor, for what it might be, isn't capable of replacing lost limbs. Also I'm fairly certain Blade isn't immortal. He just ages at a much slower rate than normal, like Raven. erm

Like I said, it's hardly relevant anyways as I don't deny that he has generic vamp speed, strength, senses, agility, and some degree of healing. As long as people aren't trying to project feats from other vampires onto Blade then it won't cause an issue in the debate.

jinzin
Originally posted by jinzin
Umm no. The only thing I might be mistaken about it the Cap fight... I'll have to go back and check, I seem to remember Priest leaving it open ended on how the fight concluded whereas Hudlin decided it ended with the gut punch.

I don't condone Cap KOing Gladiator.
Wolverine's a brick slayer that's what he does. If bricks try to fight him in melee it's generally not a good idea. That's consistent with his entire career.... I also don't condone Wolverine fighting Glads or Thor using the full extent of their abilities. woops. I meant I don't condone Cap KOing *HULK* lol

abhilegend
Logan wins.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by jinzin
. Also I'm fairly certain Blade isn't immortal. He just ages at a much slower rate than normal, like Raven. erm

. Well jinzin Blade has stated a few times in comics that he is immortal. I think he may have even told Black Panther that he was immortal for sure.

jinzin
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Well jinzin Blade has stated a few times in comics that he is immortal. I think he may have even told Black Panther that he was immortal for sure. which is why he's aged right? no expression

juggernaut74
Originally posted by jinzin
which is why he's aged right? no expression Are immortals born as adults?

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin


The Mystique fight you're referring to for instance... During the get Mystique storyline it's explicitly stated that Wolverine went chasing after Mystique for 3 days straight with no food, sleep or water the majority of that chase taking place in the desert which we already KNOW has an effect on his healing factor. He was caught up in an explosion that leveled a Mosque, he was shot by multiple men with heavy arms automatic fire to a KO, he was inside an explosive car literally packed with C4 and reduced to a skeleton, and then when he finally got within range of Mystique before that fight even started she was shooting the hell out of him with clips of automatic gunfire AND explosive iirc. Lest you think that Mystique who has been dropped by a single claw slash from Sabretooth is really good enough to drag a fight with Wolverine on that long... (no... we're not even entertaining that nonsense). THE CONTEXT MATTERS. And even then! Mystique has unique physical abilities that allow her to take/whether and distribute damage in a much more efficient manner than characters with Blade level of healing and better. Just because Mystique was able to close a fight with a weathered Wolverine like that doesn't dictate Blade could do the same with a Wolverine starting at 100%. Such an argument is beyond ludicrous and again insulting to anyone who actually read the story.

The Deadpool fight... Really??? This is pretty much the same in that Deadpool hit Wolverine with everything he could get ahold of and barely came out of that... in a fight Wolverine himself literally INTENDED to lose. And again, Deadpool has a MUCH MUCH better healing factor than Blade does. His ability to withstand punishment and find openings because of it allows for all sorts of integers that Blade simply couldn't count on having in a fight with Wolverine.

Bottem line? Wolverine's been put down by bullets sure... But that's NOT EVEN CLOSE to what typically happens in a Wolverine fight. For every time he's been put down by bullets, there's several times he's taken worse and been fine. A bullet to the brain might to the trick but I remind you there's also counter evidence of Wolverine getting up immediately after such punishment, not going down at all, actually having bone in the back of his eye, etc etc. And the majority of the time that he's gone down to a bullet to the eye include HEAPS of context you're virtually ignoring WILL NOT and CAN NOT apply to Blade in a fight with Wolverine.

Counting on this kind of strategy for a win against Wolverine is a SERIOUS reach and ignores 99.9% of the rest of his career.... if that's the case, Blade can't take the force of a bullet to his kevlar clad chest.


Why would I ask for proof of the script when I've already stated that it looked to be what happened on panel? confused

You think Blade's a threat, I admit that he is.
You said he has a healing factor, I agree that he does.
At what point in this debate am I being unreasonable here?



Punisher healing from damage is not something I'm arguing about. When I'm bringing up Punisher in this thread, it's to demonstrate that a character's ability to stand up to and fight in spite of damage is not necessarily evidence of a superior healing factor. It's said that a broken femur is the most painful injury a person can endure. Punisher not only had a broken femur but fought a superhuman regardless of it. He took a serious fight to Daken with sheer grit and balls. It's not some impressive display of healing factor. That doesn't mean Punisher is going to no sell being gutted by Wolverine or take a punched from a claws-out Wolvie without missing a beat, to insist otherwise is almost insane.
Captain America... The guy was virtually pounded on by Iron Man, multiple fractures and contusions. He healed injuries that would take a normal person months (half a year up to a full year) just to recover to a stable state and healed to a full bill of health in about several weeks. Hell, the dude was already fighting and sparring a week or two after the beating took place. This guy has recovered from being shot in the head. His enhanced healing ability is impressive and we've seen him tank stabbings and being shot and continue to fight with ease, it doesn't mean he can take the damage Wolverine dishes out.... Even without his claws Wolverine was able to plant a blow on him that induced a near instant blood clot. Cap can't sustain his damage output. Neither can Blade...
HONESTLY.... HONESTLY..... you REALLY believe that Blade simply gonna fight through this type of damage?

1. http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/6209/beastoneshotgr6.jpg
2. http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5161/woliecable2ck6.jpg (non 616)
3. http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5937/cabledeadpool440023fk0.jpg
4.http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3332/gamoraic2eo5.jpg
5. http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3479/ld4hv3.jpg
6. http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5170/easilybeatsdeathstrike3tz0.jpg
7. http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/543/beatsadmantiumsabes5pr4.jpg
8. http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9798/shiva2ro6.jpg
9. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5008/shiva12gv3.jpg
10. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1141/sniktfight29ol2.jpg
11. http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4338/terrorinc4mu7.jpg
12. http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4995/venomb4qm6.png
13. http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5808/wolverine42004fh4.jpg
14. http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1156/43578353hz1.jpg
15. http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/9306/hulk340pg16viciouscirclod4.jpg
16. http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8013/shredderfight4ek2.jpg
17. http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8819/wolverinexk4.png
18. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7615/mimic3dk5.jpg
19. http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7402/newinamor5dn2.jpg
20. http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2346/ff7418aa4.jpg
Keep in mind that this is just a handful of examples that better illustrate the type of the damage wolverine can produce when his claws aren't being nerfed for the sake of the story or for the sake of keeping characters alive. One slash can rend through entire frames, or chop off limbs with ease. Even if all Wolverine was doing was wildly flailing his arms about Blade would have to be fighting a mindful and defensive battle to keep from being seriously harmed. And most of/all of these examples include characters who have healing factors/repair mechanisms on par of superior to Blades. A number of them have skill levels around Blades league as well.

Again, when Wolverine's claws aren't being nerfed, the damage he can do with a single flush attack could/would be too much for Blade to sustain and keep himself competitive with Wolverine in an in-fight scenario.
Kinda like this: http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/565/whatifnamorwt4.jpg


1. Guggenheim has admitted that the fight ended in a stalemate, you need to get over that. Moreover he went so far as to say Blade had the upperhand. When you look at the fight straight as it was depicted without skewing events in favor of Wolverine you can see that. When you realize when Wolverine missed, he didn't miss on purpose, or when Blade hit him it's not because Wolverine wanted to get hit. Those ideas are just nonsense and not only the writer but interviewers at marvel.com also summarized the fight as a draw. It's not me who needs to get over the fight seeing as I'm not even the one who brought it up, I'd rather it not be brought up at all since author and official statements have consistently been ignored in order to make Wolverine look better.
2. Are we going to pretend that Wolverine hasn't been put down by shots to the head before? Need I remind you that this isn't just Blade vs. Wolverine but Blade and Cassie, both of whom will be taxing Wolverine healing factor both of whom are more than skilled enough to take on Wolverine. The real reason Wolverine takes the majority against Blade is because of the adamantium skeleton, however if Cassie and Blade are both working at putting wolverine down, he'll eventually pass out form bloodloss, think about all the times Sabretooth has gutted Wolverine, in the Evolution arc alone Wolverine was put out due to blood loss frequently. Think of all he times in Wolverine Origins he was shot unconscious. With these two dealing out the damage, eventually Wolverine is going to fall to blood loss.
3. The scans you've posted are against characters with healing factors (who tend to leave themselves open as you've said before). Not only that but Blade wouldn't go down to all the scans you've chosen. Slashes and Stabs that don't directly decapitate him won't put him down, several of those strikes will.

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
Again... what are you going on about? Making a bunch of statements about some things that Blade has done doesn't amount for much in this thread unless those examples relate specifically to what we're talking about. I'm not arguing whether or not Blade can heal, I'm arguing about to what degree that healing works..or doesn't. And bringing up a couple of examples where one stab drops Blade to the ground for a semi-extended period of time (and keep in mind in a fight seconds last for what seems like minutes, and that's to humans without any superhuman reflexes/attributes) especially one where he gets dropped by a small knife to the back of his shoulder for half a page is not a good example of Blade having a healing factor good enough to sustain the blows Wolverine's dishing out in a fight. The best evidence you have thus far is Blades fight with Hrolf, but the simple fact of that matter is that the damage we see being done is a panel so small and lacking in detail that it doesn't really demonstrate the amount of damage done, nor does it show the rate of healing as the subsequent panels never go to show blade's torso again iirc. And once more, it draws into this pitfall where guys like Punisher and Daredevil have taken this kind of damage and gone on in spite of it. It isn't evidence of a healing factor (keeping in mind I'm not saying that Blade doesn't have one) ... it sure as hell isn't evidence of the rate of a healing factor.

We've seen characters like Batman and Elektra draw on energy to close up bullet holes in two or three panels, in a laps of a few moments. The closest thing we've seen for Blade's rate of healing typically stems from superficial damage like Spitfires scratches or unclear artwork which is shrug-worthy at best. erm

If Blade can have a hole shot through his stomach, or have his throat slit, or lose a limb and continue to fight unhindered in that moment, then please produce that evidence. I've never seen it.



This fight essentially boils down to one basic thing, what Wolverine can take. His damage soak and rate of healing are so ridiculous that Wolverine's essentially a broken character when it comes to most melee fights, and no, 1 sword, a handgun, some knives and a few stakes are not going to tip the scales in Blade's favor against this kind of monumental advantage. Because of Wolverine's bones sctructure coupled with his innate power, Blade can only do very superficial damage to Wolverine for the most part, and for the most part, if Blade wants to do more than that he needs to draw himself in close, which your skewed examples have already demonstrated is practically a suicide mission. And, unfortunately, 1 semi-generic street level MA isn't going to add a heaping advantage against Wolverine here either.
Even if Wolverine was robbed of his speed, strength, and skill... even if all Cass and Blade were fighting here was an Adamantiumized Madcap for all intents and purposes, they would STILL be fighting a predominantly defensive battle simply based on the fact that Wolverine can take SOOOOO much more than they can, and he can dish out SOOOOO much more than they can. That's a sizable advantage that Wolverine has over most street levels and it still shocks me it isn't brought up more it's so obvious. But..... Wolverine DOES have his strength, speed and skillset and because those are also all slight advantages in his favor, Blade has to fight a near flawless battle to even have a chance of being successful here.

Getting a "couple good hits in" is Wolverine's WORST case scenario when he's operating nowhere NEAR his best, or even remotely near his typical. That's the most Blade could hope for... and frankly, it didn't work for Mystique in your example, and she had damn near every advantage possible before the fight even got underway. Your argument here for Blade is basically that you feel he won't allow himself to take damage..... if he's within Wolverine's range, and he will be.... the dude isn't going to have a choice. no expression


The backstabbing was before he was upgraded, and he still took damage like that. Blade has had his throat torn out by vampires, Dracula ripped his throat out thinking he could turn Blade but was wrong and Blade got right up (same when on of Varnaes vampires tried to drain him). Blade was shot in the back, point blank, by the Punisher, Blade shouted in pain but never went down. When Hrolf slashed Blade, he wasn't down. Hell he counter attacked before Hrolf could swing his swords down again. Blade tore off his own hand and fought through a facility of henchmen. Simple slashes don't put him down and stabbings don't put him down. You're also underestimating Cassie's addition to the fight. I've agreed one-on-one that Blade loses, but he has the equipment to dish serious damage with his guns. He was shot unconscious by rebel soldiers, Sabretooth ripped his heart out and put him down, Gorgon stabbed him through the back (I know about the poison), and there are plenty of other example. If the two characters use their distance effectively to widdle down his healing factor, all it takes is one good shot from either of them to put him down.

Team Wins 7/10

Trackz
Originally posted by jinzin
which is why he's aged right? no expression Janus aged too...as did Lilith and Xarus.

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
1. Guggenheim has admitted that the fight ended in a stalemate, you need to get over that. No... You do. A writer's intentions do not matter as much as the end result of what they wrote. Writers intended Wolverine to be as strong as Spiderman. He isn't. Guggenheim intended to write a "stalemate" he didn't. We've already gone over this a bajillion times.

Originally posted by Trackz
Moreover he went so far as to say Blade had the upperhand. Blade didn't, so he's wrong.

Originally posted by Trackz
When you look at the fight straight as it was depicted without skewing events in favor of Wolverine you can see that.

No one has to skew anything except Blade fans trying to delude themselves into thinking this fight was stalemate when it wasn't.

Originally posted by Trackz
When you realize when Wolverine missed, he didn't miss on purpose, no expression
You are a lunatic... That's all there is to it. I don't see any other way to explain this ridiculous behavior. Don't worry though because you may not be alone. I guess I'm deluding myself as well, if I could think for one second that a logical argument about this fight could be had with a fanboy as completely off the deep end as yourself.... Wonderful....

Blade was in the air, lunging TOWARDS Logan, poised to attack him. He was subject to forward momentum. His feet were off the ground and he can't fly so we know he wasn't changing momentum in midair. He wasn't using some power of extreme agility to dodge or maneuver out of the way so what do you think happened?

That in spite of all of those FACTS..... Wolverine simply.... MISSED... he missed not once, but twice. You think he missed the first attack which was apparently close enough to shred Blade's chest garb (as Blade was continuing to move TOWARDS him) THEN missed a second attack immediately after. That Blade's forward momentum didn't continue between the first and second attack assuming Wolverine missed, AND that Wolverine didn't compensate the distance between the first and second attack and missed AGAIN.

Wolverine.... who can put the point of his claws through a flipped coin, shred skintight armor off of a cyborg before he's even realize what's happened, cut rocket powered darts out of the air, knocked nightcrawler out of the air immediately after he's bamfed back but before he has his bearings, shred a prime sentinal moving too fast for Cyclops to even SEE, and land blows on a spiderman actively attempting to avoid him?....... He missed.... he missed a target bigger than himself.... coming STRAIGHT AT HIM?!?!? REALLY....? .....REALLY.....
Yeah, you sir ARE insane, you have NO place telling ANYONE about skewing events to the favor of a character here...

Okay and what's your explanation for Wolverine scratching Blade in the face, or punching him in the face without his claws, or refusing the attack him when he had his hand around Blade's neck, or refusing to attack him while Blade had to fumble around for a needle? No wait... Let's just have an explaination for the clawless face punch... Would loooooovvvvvveeee to hear that.

Originally posted by Trackz
or when Blade hit him it's not because Wolverine wanted to get hit. Has anyone even made that claim? confused Just don't think Wolverine was attempting to readily avoid damage given that he didn't seem to be effected much by it. Didn't look like he cared, not that he wanted to be hit.

Originally posted by Trackz
Those ideas are just nonsense and not only the writer but interviewers at marvel.com also summarized the fight as a draw. It's not me who needs to get over the fight seeing as I'm not even the one who brought it up, I'd rather it not be brought up at all since author and official statements have consistently been ignored in order to make Wolverine look better. It's been brought up because it matters. I can go ahead and effectively make a legitimate and sound argument that Wolverine has a sufficient speed advantage over Blade but I don't really need to because I don't think speed is going to be a landslide factor between the two in combat but..... You're the one coming into this thread with fantasies like "Blade's gonna be dancing around Wolverine" when we've already seen a DIRECT COMPARISON between the two characters that dictates otherwise, a DIRECT COMPARISON that proves that Blade won't be dancing around shit.

You're "official statements" have been ignored because one, there's nothing "official" about them. Two, off the record statements made by writers about the intention of their work do not take precedence over what ended up on paper in what is essentially a collaborative process in which an editorial staff and a PR group decide the public outcome. And three, unless there's some legitimate retcon of the events that happened, then all we have that matters IS THOSE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED. no expression


Originally posted by Trackz
2. Are we going to pretend that Wolverine hasn't been put down by shots to the head before? Dont' have to. Unlike you, I and most people reading through this thread won't quantify Wolverine's abilities only by his failures. Again the times people have failed to put Wolverine down with bullets to the head FAAAAAARRRR exceed the times that it's worked. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Trackz
Need I remind you that this isn't just Blade vs. Wolverine but Blade and Cassie, both of whom will be taxing Wolverine healing factor both of whom are more than skilled enough to take on Wolverine.
No but apparently I need to remind you.... or you need to remind yourself. Remind yourself that Wolverine's healing factor keeps him in competitive fights where he's been hit multiple times by Hulk. Hulk being a character who can liquify all the organs in Wolverine's body with one punch. One punch from Hulk can do more damage to Wolverine's entire frame than the combined efforts of Blade and Cass could do in 3 five minute rounds. The chances are higher that they would exhaust themselves trying to slow Wolverine down then they are that the team would effectively take him out.

OR... you need to be reminded of the fact that Wolverine himself is unbelievably skilled. More-so than Cass, more-so than Blade and actually HAS feats that dwarf taking on the likes of this team.

1-He held off 1/4th of the Shiar Imperial Guard by himself on one of his first adventures in space.
2-Momentarily fought off Sabretooth and Deathstrike at the same time.
3-Taken on and beat up entire teams of X-force, Generation X, X-men, New Warriors and Alpha Flight
4- Fought Scorpion, Boomerang and Shocker all at the same time and was winning.
5- Beat up Bloodscream and Vermin at the same time.
6- Effectively took Omega Red and Deathstrike to task at the same time without a damned healing factor.
7- Destroyed the undead Shinagami without taking 1 major wound.
8- Beat up Deathstrike and Psylocke at the same time.
9. Beat up AOA Sabretooth and Wildchild at the same time.
10. Took down an entire city of self repairing robots with super speed, strength, and plasma weapons in Snikt.
11. Put the whole of the Soviet Supersoldiers on the defensive.
12. Attacked the entire Ngarai nation and put them on the defensive.
13. He "easily" walked through an Adamantium clad clone/doppleganger and the Angel of Death at the same time without taking a single hit.
and...
This isn't even every group fight he's had! You think 2 peakish humanish characters are going to do what entire superhero teams, armies, alien clans, demon hordes, and frankly duos who are superior to this team in every way have failed to do? Yeah, of course you do. You need to go talk to the guys in the white lab coats and ask for another scrip. You've obviously lost yours.

Originally posted by Trackz
The real reason Wolverine takes the majority against Blade is because of the adamantium skeleton, Uh no... you're just regurgitating what you were told by Guggenhiem huh? I can pretty much guarantee I know more about Wolverine than him... and I know more about Blade for that matter.
The real reason Wolverine wins is because of his Adamantium skeleton COUPLED with his healing factor. Of course... his superior speed, strength, and skill are not to be completely overlooked either.

Originally posted by Trackz
however if Cassie and Blade are both working at putting wolverine down, They'll fail.

Originally posted by Trackz
he'll eventually pass out form bloodloss, He won't.... unless... If he wasn't fighting back perhaps. After days.... confused

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
think about all the times Sabretooth has gutted Wolverine, in the Evolution arc alone Wolverine was put out due to blood loss frequently. You're like a parrot, repeating the same things over and over again.... Even though it's been explained to you half a dozen times by other members I guess I'll give this another shot even though I know it has no chance of getting through to you.... Sabretooth is a 20 ton character who hits like a 60 ton character. He uses a combination of brute strength, skill, and claws to put Wolverine away and typically over extremely prolonged battles...

In Evolution specifically... Wolverine was only knocked out twice from strict bloodloss. Once was after having his throat cut, havng his head used like a battering ram and being choked by a 20 ton lifter and having his spine ripped out the back of his neck which apparently contorted enough to make cracking sounds followed by having his heart apparently stabbed/ripped from his chest followed by whatever else happened off panel AFTER ALL THAT! This is punishment Blade isn't going to be able to replicate with Cass' help and it DEFINITELY isn't something he can replicate while Wolverine's fighting back.

The other was after Wolverine just awoke from a poison that was apparently strong enough to keep him sedated for cross continental travel and then having his throat slit open, eyes poked into/out, and being repeatidly bashed by Sabretooth and his superstrength. It's pretty arguable that Wolverine wasn't tip top going into that fight given that he just woke up from the poison that put him out to begin with, but even after going down he was only out long enought for Sabretooth to run down two women who Wolverine had gathered were essentially powerless.. so maybe a couple of minutes?

You know what else Evolution showcased? How about this. eek!

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/thWolverine_51_013.jpg

Wolverine fighting after the aformentioned fight and crashlanding the blackbird, continuing to fight inside an inferno as essentially half a walking skeleton. Of course you wouldn't want to bring that up would you? Hell no, afterall an argument for Blade needs a leg to stand on. no expression

This isn't even the only feat Wolverine has like this either...

Originally posted by Trackz
Think of all he times in Wolverine Origins he was shot unconscious. With these two dealing out the damage, eventually Wolverine is going to fall to blood loss. Under Daniel Way, who tends to take his liberties with the character... But maybe you would like to be more specific because Way like the grass on BOTH sides of the fence and has also had Deadpool failing to drop Wolverine with automatic gunfire, explosives, and more explosives.... oh and trucks and pianos...

Again, Wolverine isn't the sum of his failures and characters operate at their standard best. Give me legitimate examples where Wolverine's gone down to what you're suggesting.. I'll either gladly provide you the context you're probably ignoring (like I've done so far) or I'll give you several where he's succeeded under worse.


Originally posted by Trackz
3. The scans you've posted are against characters with healing factors (who tend to leave themselves open as you've said before). Not only that but Blade wouldn't go down to all the scans you've chosen. Slashes and Stabs that don't directly decapitate him won't put him down, several of those strikes will. Haven't you drawn a big argument for Blade and his healing factor in this very thread?! Should we assume that Blade is going to leave himself open too?

God you can not possibly be this dense... You CAN'T be! It's impossible... lol! laughing out loud

First off you're missing the point... but we'll get to that in a minute.

The issue about the scans I posted vs what you're pulling out of your ass here... is that with the exception of a handful of them almost every single one of those is a fight ending panel. Characters who take punishment in fights on purpose or simply avoid dodging punishment usually do so to win the fight, or..because they know they can take it. I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that Deadpool, or Deathstrike, or Thing, or hell even droids liks Shiva or the Snikt bots were actually LETTING Wolverine hit them... no expression
Your argument absolutely could not get any more stupid than it's become right now... honeslty. Your arms must get all sorts of sore with all the re-re-REEEEACHING your constantly forced to do for your character.

The point of the scans though is simple; a single flush attack from Wolverine deals LETHAL damage, and frankly excessive damage even to characters with healing factors superior to Blades. Blade can not take one of those attacks and be okay, and no, not a single one of those characters let Wolverine get those shots in... you sir are a moron...

jinzin
Originally posted by Trackz
The backstabbing was before he was upgraded, and he still took damage like that. Blade has had his throat torn out by vampires, Dracula ripped his throat out thinking he could turn Blade but was wrong and Blade got right up (same when on of Varnaes vampires tried to drain him). Blade was shot in the back, point blank, by the Punisher, Blade shouted in pain but never went down. When Hrolf slashed Blade, he wasn't down. Hell he counter attacked before Hrolf could swing his swords down again. Blade tore off his own hand and fought through a facility of henchmen. Simple slashes don't put him down and stabbings don't put him down. You're also underestimating Cassie's addition to the fight. I've agreed one-on-one that Blade loses, but he has the equipment to dish serious damage with his guns. He was shot unconscious by rebel soldiers, Sabretooth ripped his heart out and put him down, Gorgon stabbed him through the back (I know about the poison), and there are plenty of other example. If the two characters use their distance effectively to widdle down his healing factor, all it takes is one good shot from either of them to put him down.

Team Wins 7/10 Yeah... No they don't.


Jesus.... Just when I think you're arguments couldn't get anymore absurd you come out swingin for the fences in an attempt to top yourself huh. lol!
Okay here we go...

When in the blue hell was Blade upgraded? Because according to your boy Guggenheim... The man who you supposedly love to reference whether it's canon or not, Blade hasn't been changed in any regard since his incarnation. Unless there's some recent upgrade I'm currently unaware of.

And... Can you for 10 seconds try to keep up with yourself. Either Blade being shanked in the back of his shoulder is evidence of Blade and his healing or it isn't.. You seemed to think it's a feat worth mentioning.. Blade ends up on the ground for two 1/2 pages so it doesn't look good by ANY means.

(Funny though, the fact that you're using scans before Gugg's retconned history but also trying to make those scans more impressive by citing the retcon, pretty much solidifies that a number of Blade's "healing factor" feats aren't even attriutable to a healing factor as much as they're standard comic superhero practice... pffft.)

NOW you're attempting to use vampire bites as being synonymous with having the throat actually ripped out? You don't even understand the difference between a cut and a puncture and what it does to human tissue... This is beyond ludicrous and is bordering on trolling away here.

When Hrolf cut Blade he also spent a panel mucking about while Blade was grabbing his gut. Again, we don't know what the extent of the damage was there because it isn't shown and it isn't described.

We've seen Blade dropped to a knee from being impaled, we've seen him stunned by arms fire, and according to your lowball logic we've seen him get dropped by a single bullet to the chest while wearing kevlar. If you have evidence that actually MATTERS here, feel free to present it. But I've already done my fair share and then some in providing a mountain of evidence where Wolverine has put people down with a single attack who have better healing factors than Blade has EVER shown to have on panel.

If you think Blade can stand up to Wolverine levels of punishment please feel free to PROVE IT. Thus far the best proof you've referenced is a single ambiguous slash only effecting him for a single panel. Does that mean three slashes at the same time would have him effected for three panels? How deep was that slash? Was it significant damage? Did it actually manage to tear guts from Blade's torso? Was it possibly just superficial? I dunno, but it's not my job to supply that kind of proof. You think Blade can take a claws-out jab to his head, heart, lungs, arteries, throat, kidneys or solar plexis?.... PROVE IT. Because I've already proven that a single slash from Wolverine can decimate a Shiva droid in half even with it's self repair systems, enhanced durability, force field, and Wolverine's fighting abilities downloaded onto it's mainframe.

Blade can't take that kind of punishment, prove that he can.

And no I'm not underestimating Cassie, it's just that her addition hardly matters to the fight. She's in an even worse state than Blade with a smaller frame, NO healing, and no Adamantium weaponry to try and defend herself. She has to fight even more flawlessly than Blade. She won't. This team is not going to be more successful than the Lady Deathstrike/Psylocke tag team was, and if you think otherwise, you're out of your damned mind.

Bringing up a bunch of bad examples that are notoriously riddled with context or outnumbered by opposing evidence in a variable landslide does nothing to build up your argument.
You know about the poison? How about the swords, stars, etc he was already hit with? the dozens/hundreds of ninja he already fought? How about the fact that he wasn't even KO'd by that sword stab through the back, and that the rest of whatever happened after that happened off panel just like your plea to when Sabretooth threatened to rip his heart out?

Yeah, your arguments as usual are full of shit. Nice to see some things never change I guess.

Badabing
Guys, be civil or use the ignore. Trolling and bashing is not alowed.

jinzin
Sorry admittedly I'm getting frustrated at the trollish nature of his argumentation and lack of care for context.

juggernaut74
I'm confused, who's trolling in this thread?

Badabing
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I'm confused, who's trolling in this thread? This poster. biscuits

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by jinzin
He's a dhampir. Sure Blade has a short list of generic vamp abilities but there's also a list of things he can't do. He can't compel people. He can't control animals. He can' fly. He can't shape shift. He can't become mist. He can't control weather. He requires oxygen. His strength class is of a middle to lower level compared to more notable vamps being what 1-2 tons. And his healing factor, for what it might be, isn't capable of replacing lost limbs. Also I'm fairly certain Blade isn't immortal. He just ages at a much slower rate than normal, like Raven. erm I don't know who Raven is. Also, I happen to know what a dhampir is. And dhampirs have almost always been portrayed as physically superior to vampires. I don't understand why you would invoke that concept. I was also under the impression that we were focusing on physicality. Maybe I wasn't clear. So let me be clear: mist, shapeshifting, weather control... I don't care. Frankly, nobody cares about that as far as I know (unless someone argued Blade turns to mist and asphyxiates Logan... ?).

Pretty sure Blade's immortal. Wolverine is as well. Even though Wolverine ages slower than normal as well. Aging slower doesn't mean anything to me. I have no idea what physical distinctions you're trying to make other than strength which other's can speak more to. Originally posted by jinzin
Like I said, it's hardly relevant anyways as I don't deny that he has generic vamp speed, strength, senses, agility, and some degree of healing. As long as people aren't trying to project feats from other vampires onto Blade then it won't cause an issue in the debate. Who's been arguing that Blade strikes Logan down with lightning or shapeshifts into a mouse?

juggernaut74
Found this in the respect thread snoop made:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Blade/Bladeimmortal-1.jpg

Trackz
Team still wins.

Blitz him until he eventually falls. Wolverine can pull off a couple of wins, but most likely not.

Provided evidence of Blade taking serious damage (losing limbs, taking stabs, being slashed, bitten in the throat etc.) they were discounted but that doesn't invalidate them. Cassie's contributions are largely being ignored seeing as she has speed feats to put her right up there with logan (some surpass). I'm not getting into walls of text against posters that are otherwise steadfast in their opinion and won't concede anything even after proof is given.

As for Blade being weaker than most vampires? That's false. He's been stated and shown that he is stronger than the average vampire...the only vampires to overpower him have been Dracula, Negus, and Varnae or other vampire that have existed for millennia. Hell, the new Baron Blood (who had identical stats to his father, who was overpowering Cap while weakened) was afraid of engaging Blade in combat. That's another argument all together though.

Batgirl and Blade can deal enough damage while switching between upclose and ranged combat. It wouldn't be easy, fighting Wolverine never is.

Anyway, I'm tempted to wait until that Blade/Wolverine one-shot comes out so maybe there's finally concrete evidence of how they stack up to each other, even though their last fight was pretty much stated by marvel to be a stalemate.

Nietzschean
i have to agree with Jinzin and his post. it is just ludicrous the examples being thrown against logan to boaster blade and cass.


Logan has fought duo opponents various times in his comic series on par if not superior to these two.

one example was the cage fight Logan had with both Lady deathstrike and sabretooth over new york.

srankmissingnin
I go away for a few days to visit family in the internet dead zone of rural southern Ontario and trackz crawls out from under his bridge for the festive trolling. It's a Christmas miracle!

Blade has no definitive healing factor feats what-so-ever, and no strength or speed or skill feats on par with Wolverine. Regardless of what Guggenhiem intended to write, what he ended up actually writing was Wolverine effortlessly schooling Blade without any effort. Blade encountered a weary Wolverine who had no interest in fighting him. Blade attacked a disinterested Wolverine, Wolveriene slashed his chest and allowed himself to be stabbed. He walked down Blade's sword, raked Blade's check with his claws to see if Blade had healing factor (which he doesn't), in order to dictate how he would proceed going forward. Wolverine disarmed Blade of his sword and punched him across the room. Blade drew his gun and fired one Wolverine, it had no effect and Wolverine closed the distance and pinned him to the ground. Knowing Blade lacks a healing factor Wolverine restrains from stabbing him while he is pinned. Blade pulls out a syringe (that we now know would have had no effect) and threatens to turn Wolverine to a vampire. Wolverine tells him to go for it, but Blade backs down remembering he owns Wolverine his life. Killing Blade would have been as simple as Wolverine tightening his grip and braking Eric's neck. It wasn't a stalemate, it wasn't a remotely even fight, Wolverine effortlessly dismantled Blade without putting the slightest amount of effort into it. If Guggenheim thought he was writing a stalemate that favoured Blade than he is a worse writer than we previously thought.

Blade is no match for Wolverine. Ten Blades are no match for Wolverine. If Wolverine put in any effort into fighting Blade the fought would last all of three panels, and that is a conservative estimate. Look at Wolverine's fights with Shatterstar... and then remember that Shatterstar is better than Blade and you will have some idea of how outmatched Blade is in this "fight".

Batgirl doesn't even begin to balance the scale.

Prep-Man
Did u miss me!?

srankmissingnin
I did! The country blows, I'm not surfing on dial up. sad

Prep-Man
I want to go to Canada to visit. In terms of best cities to live in the world, Canada had like 3 on the top 30. Us had 1. Bleh.

srankmissingnin
Canada is pretty awesome... our internet sucks even at it's finest, but that is true for the States also. /shrug

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Blade is no match for Wolverine. Ten Blades are no match for Wolverine. If Wolverine put in any effort into fighting Blade the fought would last all of three panels, and that is a conservative estimate. facepalm Let us know when you're being liberal and/or exaggerating. Originally posted by Nietzschean
i have to agree with Jinzin and his post. it is just ludicrous the examples being thrown against logan to boaster blade and cass.


Logan has fought duo opponents various times in his comic series on par if not superior to these two.

one example was the cage fight Logan had with both Lady deathstrike and sabretooth over new york. Wolverine's also lost to less various times.

Nietzschean
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
facepalm Let us know when you're being liberal and/or exaggerating. Wolverine's also lost to less various times. I agree. I know what you are implying. Logan has lost to less but the high average overshadows those few moments. there are names for such poor showings.

I would never try to use sparse low showings of a character whose bulk history outshine those moments with average showings putting aside high showings.

It be like trying to use a gas station, bullet or spiderman when saying Thor, Firelord or Superman have loss to less.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Nietzschean
I agree. I know what you are implying. Logan has lost to less but the high average overshadows those few moments. there are names for such poor showings. Yeah, I don't think they do. You mentioned Lady Deathstrike. Wolverine's been embarrassed by Lady Deathstrike on-panel too. Originally posted by Nietzschean
I would never try to use sparse low showings of a character whose bulk history outshine those moments with average showings putting aside high showings.

It be like trying to use a gas station, bullet or spiderman when saying Thor, Firelord or Superman have loss to less. That's PIS. That's not how I would characterize fights where Captain America or Punisher or Daredevil gives Wolverine trouble in a 1v1 fight.

Nietzschean
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah, I don't think they do. You mentioned Lady Deathstrike. Wolverine's been embarrassed by Lady Deathstrike on-panel too. That's PIS. That's not how I would characterize fights where Captain America or Punisher or Daredevil gives Wolverine trouble in a 1v1 fight. and vice versa.

Punisher or Daredevil given Wolverine any form of trouble other than prolonging the inevitable is pis at its finest. Captain America has a shield which allows him to contend with Logan and his claws who also happens to be more than peak and in the superhuman category.

Writer Armor has kept both Punisher and Daredevil from a body bag when facing Wolverine in a one on one . erm

Wolverine's history has him eating guys like those two for breakfast in groups with all around higher stats in the superhuman category.

If u cant see that there is no reason for me even talking to u about it.

OneDumbG0
^ K, bye.

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