Which is the better show: Naruto/shippuuden vs Avatar: TLA/LoK

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psycho gundam
Basically this is a thread devoted to figuring out which -- at this point legendary series is the better of the two.

Just the naruto animated series because it has to be balanced as much as possible.

(Characters, story, action, etc are things that should be criteria for this.)

I love them both but....which one is the best?

Demonic Phoenix
Avatar: TLAB.

Q99
The anime for Naruto has worse pacing than the manga even before you get into filler.

Show wise, there's no contest, Avatar wins.

TheAuraAngel
I think it's closer than the two above me probably do, since I do like Naruto action more, but yeah Avatar wins. A dumb ending does not compare to the mountain of filler episodes.

Bentley
Avatar by a fair margin.

TheAuraAngel
Come to think of it, why is LoK mentioned? It's got like two episodes lol.

Q99
Avatar the Last Airbender is one of the more tightly designed shows. In the entire three seasons, which episodes are worth losing?

Great Divide and... that's about it.

TheAuraAngel
I could get rid of that one episode where Katara was helping the village in the Fire Nation or something. I don't remember what happened there, if anything.

That said, I have quite a few complaints with it lol. It just is objectively better than Naruto lulz.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I think it's closer than the two above me probably do, since I do like Naruto action more, but yeah Avatar wins. A dumb ending does not compare to the mountain of filler episodes.

Yeah, I don't think it is very close at all. For me, Avatar has got the better plot and pacing, a higher number of interesting and developed characters, and better humor. Naruto fights are more fun to watch though, and while I do find Avatar's history and mythology extremely cool, I think Naruto's background mythos has the edge right now.

Note that I am comparing it to the manga, not the Anime, which I find to be worse than the Manga in most areas except fight choreography.

And of course, female fighters are actually incredibly badass in Avatar. 313

TheAuraAngel
I'll agree with everything you said except characters. Mostly cause several characters in Avatar were hit and miss with me. But that's merely a personal preference. And it's not like I like every Naruto character lol. In that regard, I personally consider them relatively close.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Q99
Avatar the Last Airbender is one of the more tightly designed shows. In the entire three seasons, which episodes are worth losing?

Great Divide and... that's about it.

In Season 1, there's "The Warriors of Kyoshi", "Jet", "The Great Divide", and The Fortuneteller". 'Jet' gave us Jet and the Freedom fighters, but Jet was not important to the plot.
For that last one, while it does hint at the Aang-Katara pairing, nothing else important happens iirc.

Season 2, there's really only "Avatar Day" that I can think of, though it was still an episode I really liked.

Season 3, there's "The Headband", "The Painted Lady", and "Nightmares and Daydreams" which was mind-numbingly stupid.

Given that Avatar only really started following a serialized format somewhere in Season 2, a fair number of episodes from Season 1 weren't very important to the characters or to the overarching plot.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I'll agree with everything you said except characters. Mostly cause several characters in Avatar were hit and miss with me. But that's merely a personal preference. And it's not like I like every Naruto character lol. In that regard, I personally consider them relatively close. Yeah, I suppose it is fairly close.
I think I like more Avatar characters than I do Naruto ones, and I think the Aang-Zuko dynamic was far better than the Naruto-Sasuke one has been, even though Naruto and Sasuke are better as characters.

The problem with Naruto is that characters who are not Naruto or Sasuke tend to get tossed aside for a long time after they've gotten some development and a flashback or two.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, I suppose it is fairly close.
I think I like more Avatar characters than I do Naruto ones, and I think the Aang-Zuko dynamic was far better than the Naruto-Sasuke one has been, even though Naruto and Sasuke are better as characters.

The problem with Naruto is that characters who are not Naruto or Sasuke tend to get tossed aside for a long time after they've gotten some development and a flashback or two.

Eh, I haven't kept count. But of those four, if I listed my favorites it would go Zuko>Naruto/Sasuke>Aang. I would like Aang a lot more were it not for the end of the series. Though I saw the relationships as being roughly equal. I think it's hard to compare though cause Sasuke and Naruto are rivals while Aang and Zuko...well, it's complicated.

Eh, I think that is more true in part 2 than 1. Which makes sense because part 2 is about Naruto trying to bring Sasuke back. But eh.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Eh, I haven't kept count. But of those four, if I listed my favorites it would go Zuko>Naruto/Sasuke>Aang. I would like Aang a lot more were it not for the end of the series. Though I saw the relationships as being roughly equal. I think it's hard to compare though cause Sasuke and Naruto are rivals while Aang and Zuko...well, it's complicated.

Eh, I think that is more true in part 2 than 1. Which makes sense because part 2 is about Naruto trying to bring Sasuke back. But eh.

My favourites are Zuko > Sasuke = Aang > Naruto, but I do think Naruto and Sasuke are better characters.
Yeah, but in Part 2, the NS relationship has been extremely one-sided. It was great in Part 1, which is one reason why I think the VotE fight was an excellent ending to Part 1, but it has fizzled out until recent events.

Part 2 has been going for on longer than Part 1 has. 313

Also, you aren't using 'eh' correctly. It has to appear at the end of your sentences, like it is at the end of your post. stick out tongue

wakkawakkawakka
Avatar wins for having badass/competent/first-class female fighters that actually contribute regularly to the plot. On top of the superior pacing and art quality, Naruto animation in Part 2 sucks, in Avatar.

That and Sokka>>>Anime Narutoverse cool

psycho gundam
Imo, naruto is better at creating emotional moments, there a ton in part one but the death of jiraya and naruto moping around after......man tears

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Imo, naruto is better at creating emotional moments, there a ton in part one but the death of jiraya and naruto moping around after......man tears

I can see that, though I would argue it's something Avatar can do as well, particularly with Zuko. "Zuko Alone" is a very emotional episode.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Imo, naruto is better at creating emotional moments, there a ton in part one but the death of jiraya and naruto moping around after......man tears

Clearly you did not watch the Tale of Iroh.

TheAuraAngel
IOVdTg7vDA4

Nephthys
Avatar.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In Season 1, there's "The Warriors of Kyoshi", "Jet", "The Great Divide", and The Fortuneteller". 'Jet' gave us Jet and the Freedom fighters, but Jet was not important to the plot.
For that last one, while it does hint at the Aang-Katara pairing, nothing else important happens iirc.

Both Jet and the Kyoshi Warriors become very important to the plot later on and keep showing up in later episodes, so those actually are important episodes. In particular the Kyoshi Warriors since they're who find Appa and they're who allow Azula to take over Ba Sing Se and since Suki arguably becomes a main character and full-fledged part of the Gaang in season 3.

Nephthys
Double poast.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Eh, I haven't kept count. But of those four, if I listed my favorites it would go Zuko>Naruto/Sasuke>Aang. I would like Aang a lot more were it not for the end of the series. Though I saw the relationships as being roughly equal. I think it's hard to compare though cause Sasuke and Naruto are rivals while Aang and Zuko...well, it's complicated.

Eh, I think that is more true in part 2 than 1. Which makes sense because part 2 is about Naruto trying to bring Sasuke back. But eh.

While I agree that the end was a major cop-out and a complete dethroning moment of suck for Aang, at least Aang didn't hyperventilate because his boyfriend doesn't love him anymore . That moment of Naruto being a gigantic throbbing pussy completely overshadows the end of Avatar imo.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
IOVdTg7vDA4

Best Song evar!

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/249/f/b/dat_iroh_by_rennard-d4924ld.jpgOriginally posted by Nephthys

Both Jet and the Kyoshi Warriors become very important to the plot later on and keep showing up in later episodes, so those actually are important episodes. In particular the Kyoshi Warriors since they're who find Appa and they're who allow Azula to take over Ba Sing Se and since Suki arguably becomes a main character and full-fledged part of the Gaang in season 3.

Damn, yeah, I'll give you Kyoshi's Warriors importance in that it introduces Suki.
Jet though, not so important. Jet's only semi-important in Book 2 in that helps points them towards Lake Laogai. Plus he was an annoying d*** and a waste of character until he got brainwashed, so I'm biased. uhuh

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
Double poast.



While I agree that the end was a major cop-out and a complete dethroning moment of suck for Aang, at least Aang didn't hyperventilate because his boyfriend doesn't love him anymore . That moment of Naruto being a gigantic throbbing pussy completely overshadows the end of Avatar imo.

Nah man, the end to Avatar was worse. It wasn't even the Energybending that pissed me the **** off. It was Aang getting poked in the back and apparently that's the code for God Mode.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Best Song evar!

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/249/f/b/dat_iroh_by_rennard-d4924ld.jpg

Damn, yeah, I'll give you Kyoshi's Warriors importance in that it introduces Suki.
Jet though, not so important. Jet's only semi-important in Book 2 in that helps points them towards Lake Laogai. Plus he was an annoying d*** and a waste of character until he got brainwashed, so I'm biased. uhuh

Suki sucks though.

Nephthys
I agree that he's not too important, but since he appears again in quite a few episodes in season 2 linked to multiple plot points and moves the plot along its important to at least know who he is imo. Certainly he's more important than ****ing Haru and Haru's dad.

Edit: WTF Suki is awesome! You have awful taste in characters Aura!



That was where his scar was from Azula's lightning that blocked his chakras off. It does make sense. At least the bullshit is surrounded by the awesomeness of the Aang vs Ozai fight. Naruto was just pathetic in that entire arc.

TheAuraAngel
She's boring. I hated how she just randomly became part of the Gaang.

Edit: Yeah I know. Rocks were the cure all along!

Nephthys
There was an entire 2-part episode focused on rescuing her. It was hardly random. Did you think they would just stuff her in the closet afterwards?

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
There was an entire 2-part episode focused on rescuing her. It was hardly random. Did you think they would just stuff her in the closet afterwards?

You mean...like Sokka's dad?

Nephthys
Sokka's dad is old, he can't be in the Gaang. >:[

TheAuraAngel
The leader of the Gaang is 112 years old. 313

Nephthys
Aang isn't the leader though. Sokka usually leads the group.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
Aang isn't the leader though. Sokka usually leads the group.

Aang's got a statue and banged Sokka's sister. Dude can take his boomerang and shove it. uhuh

Nephthys
Sokka needs no boomarang anymore.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2582000/Alex13126-2582886_500_400.jpg

RE: Blaxican
"Gaang" is such a butt****ingly gay word.

Tacitus
Then what about 'group' or 'team'?

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah man, the end to Avatar was worse. It wasn't even the Energybending that pissed me the **** off. It was Aang getting poked in the back and apparently that's the code for God Mode.
Agreed. Not to mention Roku stating that Comet amped Fire Lord would be a match for a fully realized Avatar, only for Comet Amped Ozai to get his shit pushed in worse than Book 1 Zuko did.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Suki sucks though.
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/jim-slaps-dwight-o.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree that he's not too important, but since he appears again in quite a few episodes in season 2 linked to multiple plot points and moves the plot along its important to at least know who he is imo. Certainly he's more important than ****ing Haru and Haru's dad.


Eh, it was just the Lake Laogai thing that made him important. Everything else was largely unimportant, and they could have easily introduced Jet in S2. Dude was basically a slightly more charismatic Roid-Raging Sasuke interested in girls.

Haru was a much better character though, but yeah, Haru was largely unimportant. Though that ep at least had Katara being insanely badass and charismatic, and it led into the Waterbending scroll ep where Zuko used Katara's necklace. uhuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Aang isn't the leader though. Sokka usually leads the group.

I liked how the gang couldn't do shit when Sokka left to train with Piandao.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Agreed. Not to mention Roku stating that Comet amped Fire Lord would be a match for a fully realized Avatar, only for Comet Amped Ozai to get his shit pushed in worse than Book 1 Zuko did.


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/jim-slaps-dwight-o.gif

Granted...Aang did look pretty cool. :T

Wow, was my Suki comment that big a slap in the face to you guys? vin

wakkawakkawakka
So....we ever find out what happened to Azula. Oh yeah Azula is also another reason why Avatar's better.

Can we go back to calling Aangs group Team Avatar?

TheAuraAngel
Madara> Azula imho.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Granted...Aang did look pretty cool. :T

Wow, was my Suki comment that big a slap in the face to you guys? vin

Simultaneous Bending of all 4 elements? Yeah, he did. Still, fight was laem. Zuko/Katara vs. Azula was much better.

Indeed. It's why I'm e-slapping you back. uhuh

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Madara> Azula imho.

Madara would troll Avatar State Aang. awesome

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Madara> Azula imho.

Gottdammit Madara!!! But yeah I forgot about him in my comparison.

But Madara doesn't have a sexy voice in a kid's show now does he?

Nephthys
Azula > Madara easily. The guys only been in one fight so far. erm

Come back when he conquers an entire continent through sheer force of personality at the age of 14.

TheAuraAngel
Too bad his one fight>her. 313

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Nephthys
Azula > Madara easily. The guys only been in one fight so far. erm

Come back when he conquers an entire continent through sheer force of personality at the age of 14.

Madara's a far better badass troll than she is.

Madara's name would force that Kingdom to shit itself in fear and give themselves up. awesome

Nephthys
Please, Madaras just an arrogant kungfu guy. He hasn't even killed anyone but faceless mooks yet. Azula killed the main character. He's completely flaccid by comparison to her.

Also:

Long Feng: You've beaten me at my own game.
Azula: Don't flatter yourself. You were never even a player.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Too bad his one fight>her. 313

Azula vs Zuko/Katara makes that fight look like a piece of piss. Even moreso if we add in her mental breakdown beforehand.

TheAuraAngel
Too bad he didn't stay dead. Madara enslaves a walking nuke like a bawss.

Long Feng was lame so yeah, not that hard.

Edit: So you mean that fight where she fought two really strong characters and lost? Madara is busy absolutely pwning 5 really strong characters.

Nephthys
And gets his ass kicked despite said walking nuke and it wrestled from his control.

Nah, you clearly just have crap taste.

Quality trumps Quantity. Her fight was superior.

TheAuraAngel
Well, how often has Azula lost? smile

Fanboi.

Not really. But I prefer Naruto action anyway.

wakkawakkawakka
Well according to theories...Madara raised himself from the dead: Like a boss cool

But Azula did take over a country just by being awesome. That and she has Grey Delisle's voice.

Edit: You're talking about the manga right Aura?

TheAuraAngel
Her only competition was Long Feng. Not that hard.

I'm talking about your manga.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well, how often has Azula lost? smile

Fanboi.

Not really. But I prefer Naruto action anyway.

One on one? Never. One on one with the help of a walking nuke? Nope, don't think shes ever done that either.

Narufag.

To each his own. Though I seriously laugh at the idea that some douchebag who's appeared in a handful of chapters compares to Azula.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
One on one? Never. One on one with the help of a walking nuke? Nope, don't think shes ever done that either.

Narufag.

To each his own. Though I seriously laugh at the idea that some douchebag who's appeared in a handful of chapters compares to Azula.

Didn't Aang beat her on top of the drill? And Katara had her pretty solidly dead to rights below Ba Sing Se.

You know it.

Quality>Quantity. 313

wakkawakkawakka
But it was a large captial city or whatever she took over. And you haven't argued against her strangely erotic VA

Whaaaaat?

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But it was a large captial city or whatever she took over. And you haven't argued against her strangely erotic VA

Whaaaaat?

Madara took down a Division in an army. And Madara has better boobs.

?

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Didn't Aang beat her on top of the drill? And Katara had her pretty solidly dead to rights below Ba Sing Se.

You know it.

Quality>Quantity. 313

No, she beat him but she took too long killing him, he woke up and knocked her back and they never finshed the rest of the fight. Azula hadn't even used lightning yet against Katara, she could still have won.

stick out tongue

Too bad he has neither.

TheAuraAngel
Nah. Just rewatched it. All that happened but they did finish the fight. Aang destroyed the drill and knocked her the **** back. stick out tongue

Nephthys
Thats not finishing the fight, as evidenced by them, y'know, not fighting at that point.

TheAuraAngel
Azula attacked him, missed, and got knocked out. "Defeated" if you will. 313

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Clearly you did not watch the Tale of Iroh. rock lee finding out he "should give up being a ninja" >

oh yeah, obito biscuits

NemeBro
Azula is better by virtue of the fact that she is half of the godlike ship that is TyZula.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs24/f/2009/248/0/2/Tyzula_Week_2009_by_JewelOfSong.jpg

Eat me ****ers.

Madara is more powerful, both objectively, and in the context of their series. No shit. But Azula is a more rounded character, has greater strength of personality, and is more intelligent and cunning. Azula's effectiveness at being both a detestable yet sympathetic/tragic villain is something only rivaled by Danzo in terms of Naruto villains (I'm talking about longer running, major villains, not relatively minor ones).

Also, Avatar is better.

RE: Blaxican
Naruto as a series is way better than Avatar.

I'm enjoying Legend of Korra immensely though.

TheAuraAngel
Sometimes I think I'm the only one that doesn't give a shit about Azula's "Boo hoo mommy doesn't love me" crap.

NemeBro
It's more the "daddy only acts like he cares about me when I act like a sociopath but I know he doesn't and my mommy thinks I'm a monster (In my mind)" crap.

Nephthys
Also that the only 3 people she kind of cared about stabbed her in the back in rapid succession.

Including her lesbian lover.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by NemeBro
It's more the "daddy only acts like he cares about me when I act like a sociopath but I know he doesn't and my mommy thinks I'm a monster (In my mind)" crap.

Because of the two of them, Ozai certainly preferred Zuko. Obviously. And since the mommy issues seem to be a rationalization on her part to justify her psycho, it's hardly sympathetic. It's just what one would expect.

Nephthys
It seemed to me that Ozai didn't give a toss about either of them.

TheAuraAngel
Well no, obviously not. But between banishing his son and branding him a traitor with a scar that will stay with him for his entire life, it's really hard for me to feel bad for the kid he made Fire Lord. I mean, boo hoo he'll be something else above Fire Lord. Azula has been his number 2 this whole time so I don't see why this is different.

wakkawakkawakka
It's her voice, it's all about her voice...that and the fact that she was awesome enough to take her own city without really doing much on her end.

Yeah Azula's awesome!

Nephthys
Being made Fire Lord was like a slap in the face after he declared himself Pheonix King. She's obviously starting to crack up and being made to stay at home seems like a calculated show of his lack of trust for her, as shown by her getting hurt and angry with him for it. She even says 'you can't treat me like Zuko', and we all know how he treated Zuko. Then he makes her Fire Lord and she thinks hes actually rewarding her only for him to reveal that he just made the position completely meaningless. So yes, she's sitting in the palace twidling her thumbs, stewing in her thoughts and made to feel utterly useless, inadequate and dejected. You could even speculate that with her 'you can't treat me like Zuko', her fathers abandoment of her and her sudden spike in paranoia that she's starting to worry that he really will just throw her aside soon. As Nemebro said I think she probably realised at that point that he didn't give a **** about her if she wasn't usefull.

So she's betrayed by Zuko, Ty Lee and Mai and feels betrayed by her father and it starts to go back in her mind to her belief that nobody can love her because she's a monster and that everyone will turn on her because of it. IMO its a really interesting and sympathetic insight into whats almost self-loathing and makes for a very believable breakdown when she can't cope.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because of the two of them, Ozai certainly preferred Zuko. Obviously. And since the mommy issues seem to be a rationalization on her part to justify her psycho, it's hardly sympathetic. It's just what one would expect. Zuko preferred Azula in the same way someone prefers a sword forged from steel over one forged from iron.

That doesn't change the fact that she wanted and needed to feel loved by her parents when she was a little girl, but from her point of view got no love from either (Granted, Ursa did love her, but due to lolOzai Azula never got to be shown it).

Also yeah, self-loathing and regret over what she let dear old dad turn her into.

TheAuraAngel
None of that makes me sympathize with Azula.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Sometimes I think I'm the only one that doesn't give a shit about Azula's "Boo hoo mommy doesn't love me" crap.

Nah, I don't give a shit about it either.
But you're probably the only one that does not give sympathize with her when she snaps.


On an unrelated note, Toph >>> Azula.

Nephthys
Toph >>> all the characters.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8v49q97E41qc73keo1_400.png

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7bz53Rqnw1qc73keo1_400.png

Only Iroh rivals her.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, I don't give a shit about it either.
But you're probably the only one that does not give sympathize with her when she snaps.


On an unrelated note, Toph >>> Azula.

Good.
She made her bed, she can lie in it. If she got better, yay for her. If not, oh well.

Toph is awesome.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Nephthys
Toph >>> all the characters.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8v49q97E41qc73keo1_400.png

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7bz53Rqnw1qc73keo1_400.png

Only Iroh rivals her. I agree with Toph = Iroh >>> the rest.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ I agree with Toph = Iroh >>> the rest.

Agreed, but I still sympathize with her. Meh.

Yeah, she is.

http://plus4chan.org/b/a/src/132510484234.jpg

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Good.
She made her bed, she can lie in it. If she got better, yay for her. If not, oh well.

Toph is awesome.

So cold! XD

You give Sasuke more sympathy than Azula, whats up wid dat!?

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
So cold! XD

You give Sasuke more sympathy than Azula, whats up wid dat!?

Sasuke is basically the universes chew toy at this point. I can't really help but feel sorry for him.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Fanboi.

Q99
You lot have seen Avatar: Book 4, right?

It answers a lot of questions about Azula and so on.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
My taste is bad and I am a closet Uchihasexual.

I fixed that for you.

NemeBro
AuraAngel says
Because he has gotten passed the point of not giving a ****.
Assuming he destroyed Konoha, he wouldn't stop.
He'd find something else.
And then maybe someone will finally put this poor kid out of his misery.
NemeBro says
... So what you are saying is, you believe he would continue killing everyone because three guys killed his clan, and that makes him more sympathetic than Azula?
... You're a very scary person

TheAuraAngel
Compared to Azula who suggests burning down an entire continent of people, killing far more than Sasuke's little tirade would.

Keep in mind, Sasuke does his evil things out of revenge. Flimsy but it's a reason. Azula does bad things because daddy "made" her a psycho.

NemeBro
Sasuke is less sympathetic because he is a whiny ***** whose character development is hackneyed and stupid, and Azula's genocide is more reasonable. More horrible sure, but it makes sense why she suggested it.

TheAuraAngel
Because she is insane. Burning the ground of an entire continent isn't even helpful. Only someone who was insane would do that. Sure, it kinda makes sense since she is insane but that doesn't make her sympathetic.

What does? Well, she was "raised" to be a psycho though that was probably more just Ozai nudging her in that direction and gleefully going that way. She thought her mother hated her but deep down knew that wasn't true. She lost her two minions but she treated them like shit anyway so I'm more happy for them than sad for her. And her dad made her a person who had authority second only to his(really, she was already this) and somehow this more than anything else set her down the crazy road.

Sasuke's track record makes this seem absolutely pathetic.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because she is insane. Burning the ground of an entire continent isn't even helpful. Only someone who was insane would do that. Sure, it kinda makes sense since she is insane but that doesn't make her sympathetic.

Zuko: The Earth Kingdom's people are strong and brave. They will never give up.
Azula: Oh, we should just kill them then.

That makes perfect sense, albeit it also makes her a sociopath.



Speculation implicitly contradicted by the series. Azula clearly, near the end of the series, begins to show guilt over the monster she was molded into, and regret over how (In her mind) it made her mother despise her.



It is a comparison between subconscious thoughts and that of an unstable fourteen year old girl. Subconsciously she knew Ursa loved her, but Azula couldn't accept that, probably because she couldn't bring herself to accept that someone could legitimately love someone like her.



You are unable to comprehend that a character can get what they deserve yet still be sympathetic and tragic (The closest Naruto equivelant is probably Danzo... But then you're the guy who thinks he is a complete monster).

Also Azula's treatment of her friends, Ty Lee in particular, is the kindest she has ever been in the series. Also TyZula is hot.

And her dad made her a person who had authority second only to his(really, she was already this) and somehow this more than anything else set her down the crazy road.

The implication is that he is giving her a position he is about to render meaningless five seconds later because he is discarding her as a tool that has no purpose. It was another form of betrayal, and affirmation of her (correct) belief that her father never truly cared about her.



Sasuke's life has been more traumatic, but his butthurt and whiny handling of his situation as well as inferior writing make him the less sympathetic character.

Also Azula is way hotter.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
She lost her two minions but she treated them like shit anyway so I'm more happy for them than sad for her.

Azula actually admitted to not being perfect to Ty Lee and asked her for advice.

She might as well have sucked her dick. no expression

Less crass version: Azula clearly did care about her friends and although she treated them somewhat poorly and was kind of a huge dick this is entirely to do with her 'Trust is for fools! Fear is the only reliable way.' schtick thats tied into her paranoia and self-image.


Also you are being massively unfair here. Azula is a fricking villian, of course she is evil. That doesn't exclude her from being sympathetic or understandable any more than it does any of the countless sympathtic villians in fiction.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by NemeBro
Zuko: The Earth Kingdom's people are strong and brave. They will never give up.
Azula: Oh, we should just kill them then.

That makes perfect sense, albeit it also makes her a sociopath.

Burning an entire continent to the ground does not make sense. It really serves no purpose. Sure it gets rid of the enemies but it gets rid of the land too. Least for a while.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Speculation implicitly contradicted by the series. Azula clearly, near the end of the series, begins to show guilt over the monster she was molded into, and regret over how (In her mind) it made her mother despise her.

And despite her guilt did jack shit about any of it. She didn't try to change into a nicer person. She just kept acting cold as usual.


Originally posted by NemeBro
It is a comparison between subconscious thoughts and that of an unstable fourteen year old girl. Subconsciously she knew Ursa loved her, but Azula couldn't accept that, probably because she couldn't bring herself to accept that someone could legitimately love someone like her.

Or it's just a rationalization on her part and she wants something to blame, i.e mom.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You are unable to comprehend that a character can get what they deserve yet still be sympathetic and tragic (The closest Naruto equivelant is probably Danzo... But then you're the guy who thinks he is a complete monster).

No I'm not


Originally posted by NemeBro
The implication is that he is giving her a position he is about to render meaningless five seconds later because he is discarding her as a tool that has no purpose. It was another form of betrayal, and affirmation of her (correct) belief that her father never truly cared about her.

He is giving her a position of power second only to him. It was literally what she was since the beginning. She'll be serving under him just like she was. She just has a new title.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sasuke's life has been more traumatic, but his butthurt and whiny handling of his situation as well as inferior writing make him the less sympathetic character.

Also Azula is way hotter.

So let me get this straight....

Azula feeling slight guilt over her own actions(not doing jack shit to make herself better just feeling guilty) makes her more sympathetic than the guy who has literally been tortured by what can only be considered divine intervention, to the point where he has gone from cute lovable kid to a raging psycho that has just stopped caring about anything.

The tragedy of Sasuke's character is his fall from grace and how circumstances have literally put him on a path of pure destruction. Worst of all, he has just come to the point of accepting it. He knows it's not going to make him happy, he just does it because what's the point? Every single time he has thought he found a kind of happiness, SOMETHING always gets in the way. He strikes me as a character who has just flat out given up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also you are being massively unfair here. Azula is a fricking villian, of course she is evil. That doesn't exclude her from being sympathetic or understandable any more than it does any of the countless sympathtic villians in fiction.

I really don't think I am. I like sympathetic villains. Azula just really isn't one for me. She had parent issues but other than that was the most pampered person in the world and could literally get away with murder. Hell, if the Fire Nation had won she would have gone down in history as the princess who took down Ba Sing-Se single handily. She is a psycho, was one since she was little, and seemed to enjoy it until she realized that being a psycho really can make people turn on you, which was the case. Like I said, she has made her bed and can lie in it for all I care.

I like characters who are victims of circumstances. Light Yagami would have become a brilliant and righteous detective had he never laid eyes on the Death Note, though admittedly he probably had psychological issues before hand. He kept them in check though. Lelouch was born into a family of cut throats but didn't really seem to start going for blood until his mother was killed, his sister was screwed up, and his dad abandoned him. Even then, he showed himself to be a far better person that Azula ever could be. And yes, even Sasuke showed he was a better person than Azula, before the timeskip at least, and arguably afterwards since he had a code against wasteful killing. I mean now, yeah they're about even, though Sasuke may be worse considering he has literally gone so crazy that nothing seems to even affect him anymore.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I really don't think I am. I like sympathetic villains. Azula just really isn't one for me.

And here I think it just comes down to a matter of taste. You clearly just weren't affected by the writing and sympathetic scenes that were shown in the Sozen's Comet episodes like we were. Which is fine, you're allowed to have different tastes. But I still do think that you're being unfair to her.


Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I like characters who are victims of circumstances. Light Yagami would have become a brilliant and righteous detective had he never laid eyes on the Death Note, though admittedly he probably had psychological issues before hand. He kept them in check though.

And Azula could have been a noble princess if her mother had stuck around to influence her better or if her father wasn't such a sociopath. And your objection to Azula being pampered could just as much apply to Light as her.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Lelouch was born into a family of cut throats but didn't really seem to start going for blood until his mother was killed, his sister was screwed up, and his dad abandoned him. Even then, he showed himself to be a far better person that Azula ever could be.

Lelouch is an anti-hero protagonist rather than the villian, so of course he is more moral than her.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And yes, even Sasuke showed he was a better person than Azula, before the timeskip at least, and arguably afterwards since he had a code against wasteful killing. I mean now, yeah they're about even, though Sasuke may be worse considering he has literally gone so crazy that nothing seems to even affect him anymore.

When has Azula killed anyone wastefully at all? She tried to kill Aang because duh he's the Avatar, but other than that she's only ever seriously tried to kill Mai (maybe) when she betrayed her. She even says she'll get Zuko medical attention after she zaps him in the last fight (perhaps flippantly). You could argue about the Sozen's Comet plan but Zuko had just said that the Earth Kingdom would never give up.

Actually in these recent chapters with Itachi, Sasuke isn't acting like a crazed lunatic anymore. I really hate that, how he can just flip the **** out and go batshit after the Bee fight for no reason and then just become sane now, again for no reason.

Bentley
That's because Sasuke is written unconsistently and as a really sh_tty character.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
And here I think it just comes down to a matter of taste. You clearly just weren't affected by the writing and sympathetic scenes that were shown in the Sozen's Comet episodes like we were. Which is fine, you're allowed to have different tastes. But I still do think that you're being unfair to her.

Nah man. I laugh when she breathes fire at the end. It amuses me.


Originally posted by Nephthys
And Azula could have been a noble princess if her mother had stuck around to influence her better or if her father wasn't such a sociopath. And your objection to Azula being pampered could just as much apply to Light as her.

Really I doubt that. This is the girl who bullied her friends and gleefully told her brother that their dad was going to kill them. There is only so much I'm willing to believe can be blamed on Ozai. And Light was pampered, though what makes him sympathetic is not really related to his home life like the case with Azula, so it's not as big a deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lelouch is an anti-hero protagonist rather than the villian, so of course he is more moral than her.

He is still someone that I would say did bad things that got what he deserved. He would agree.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When has Azula killed anyone wastefully at all? She tried to kill Aang because duh he's the Avatar, but other than that she's only ever seriously tried to kill Mai (maybe) when she betrayed her. She even says she'll get Zuko medical attention after she zaps him in the last fight (perhaps flippantly). You could argue about the Sozen's Comet plan but Zuko had just said that the Earth Kingdom would never give up.

Actually in these recent chapters with Itachi, Sasuke isn't acting like a crazed lunatic anymore. I really hate that, how he can just flip the **** out and go batshit after the Bee fight for no reason and then just become sane now, again for no reason.

"Maybe you should worry less about the tides, who've already made up their mind about killing you, and worry more about me, who's still mulling it over." Do I think she would kill the guy? If he made her mad enough. She is like Sasuke I guess: Both try to kill good guys but just suck at it I guess. Though the excuse that the Earth Kingdom would never give up doesn't call for a razing of the entire continent.

Well I guess it depends on how you look at it. Sasuke could have become so mentally unstable that he will often change his mood. I think what happened with the Bee fight was that Sasuke realized he was growing closer to Taka before reasoning that there really isn't any point in trying to be happy with team members after the fight. This goes along thematically with the whole "My eyes don't see light anymore" thing. He got to a point where he stopped caring. But then he now has to deal with Itachi being alive so he has some questions, which is actually kinda sad really. His treatment of Kabuto makes sense regardless of Sasuke's mental stability.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah man. I laugh when she breathes fire at the end. It amuses me.

Sarcasm?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Really I doubt that. This is the girl who bullied her friends and gleefully told her brother that their dad was going to kill them. There is only so much I'm willing to believe can be blamed on Ozai. And Light was pampered, though what makes him sympathetic is not really related to his home life like the case with Azula, so it's not as big a deal.

Which makes her a bully and a jerk, not a monster. Plus she was 9 at the time, kids can be assholes at that age because they just don't understand the consequences of their attitude. You aren't just born evil, theres a good chance she could shape up as she grows up. I'm sure you know someone who was an ******* at that age who grew into a good person. I know I was and I feel that I am. But I guess we'll never know with Azula.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He is still someone that I would say did bad things that got what he deserved. He would agree.

I wouldn't. Lelouch deserved better than that.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
"Maybe you should worry less about the tides, who've already made up their mind about killing you, and worry more about me, who's still mulling it over." Do I think she would kill the guy? If he made her mad enough.

Firstly the guy was obviously a moron who needed to learn to just stfu and follow orders seeing as they both did successfully dock and he ****ed up her plan by opening his mouth. Secondly we don't know what she would have done, but Azula hasn't ever killed a single person in the show, even enemies like the Kyoshi Warriors and Long Feng, or traitors like Iroh and Mai/Ty Lee, all of which she took down non-lethally and didn't execute them when they were at her mercy. The Fire Nation in general doesn't execute people wastefully judging by the captured Earthbenders, Waterbenders and Black Sun army.

She was obviously just intimidating him anyway, tying back (again) to her 'Fear is the only way' thing.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
She is like Sasuke I guess: Both try to kill good guys but just suck at it I guess. Though the excuse that the Earth Kingdom would never give up doesn't call for a razing of the entire continent.

Its extreme (because shes a villian) but its understandable why she would suggest it. They have been fighting the Earth Kingdom for 100 years afterall and were experiencing widespread rebellions in the areas they controlled. As Zuko pointed out the Earth Kingdom wouldn't ever stop resisting them. At that point its believable that they would just say '**** it'.

Basically Azula made an (arguably) practical suggestion for the betterment of her country on how to deal with a war and rebellion, whereas by your own admission Sasuke is just a mad dog who's going to keep killing because he's insane.

I know which I see as more reasonable.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well I guess it depends on how you look at it. Sasuke could have become so mentally unstable that he will often change his mood. I think what happened with the Bee fight was that Sasuke realized he was growing closer to Taka before reasoning that there really isn't any point in trying to be happy with team members after the fight. This goes along thematically with the whole "My eyes don't see light anymore" thing. He got to a point where he stopped caring. But then he now has to deal with Itachi being alive so he has some questions, which is actually kinda sad really. His treatment of Kabuto makes sense regardless of Sasuke's mental stability.

I think you're reaching here. None of this is suggested in the manga to my knowledge. Sasuke goes from saving Karin to trying to kill her with little reason for his suddenly leap off the slippery slope as far as I can recall.


Though I feel the need to step back and say that I don't think Azula is supposed to be a massively sympathetic character like perhaps the impression I'm giving off suggests I do. I think that we're supposed to be able to feel pity for her and understand why she became like she is, but in the end she isn't Zuko and she isn't going to Heel-Face Turn without serious help. I think she is a sympathetic villain with strong characterisation on par with the rest of the Avatar cast, except that her mental breakdown was extremely well done, especially for a kids show.

TheAuraAngel
Ah well....see...I'm getting bored of this topic.

I'll concede that Azula is slightly pitiable to me but really no more so than Ozai lol.

Let's just agree that Avatar are good show and doesn't afraid of anything.

Nephthys
Ok.

VICTORY IS MINE.

TheAuraAngel
To quote a girl from a show that's better than the HST and Avatar combined...

"Never...mock....the cookie."

Nephthys
Jackie Chan? That show was ass. http://partner-ad.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/Timstuff_photos/trollface_emoticon.gif

TheAuraAngel
Better than Code Geass. 313

Nephthys
http://daviddemar.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/rage1-291x300.png

Demonic Phoenix
Gundam Seed/Gundam Seed Destiny > Code Geass vin

NemeBro
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Burning an entire continent to the ground does not make sense. It really serves no purpose. Sure it gets rid of the enemies but it gets rid of the land too. Least for a while.

It serves the purpose of destroying their enemies in one fell swoop. And I doubt every resource of the Earth Kingdom would have been destroyed.



She didn't do anything about it in a span of two days because Avatar's characterization is much stronger than Naruto's, where you get jackasses like Sasuke changing personality depending on the time of day.



She blamed her mother for seeming to hate her as a monster (She didn't, obviously). She never was shown to blame her for her own sociopathy, and never rationalised that on-screen.



You find Light more sympathetic than Azula? erm



Only, after the betrayal of the closest things she had to loved ones, she wanted/needed someone to care about her, and in her mind (And she was right about this) Ozai's actions showed he didn't care at all about her as a person.



Yes.



No the tragedy of Sasuke's character is that his development is so inconsistent and unbelievable that it ruins any chance for sympathy. I am seriously starting to think the dude might have ****ing Dissociative Identity Disorder. Which would go a long way in actually making him sympathetic.



Bahahaha irony.

Word of Mike and Brian is that Azula is not naturally evil or a sociopath, and in time could change to be a better person.

Which means that it was indeed Ozai who caused her sociopathy.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by NemeBro
Bahahaha irony.

Word of Mike and Brian is that Azula is not naturally evil or a sociopath, and in time could change to be a better person.

Which means that it was indeed Ozai who caused her sociopathy.

Yep. Ozai was the cause of every single problem in Azula. Without him she'd shit rainbows. I'll stick to the series that can actually show me the villain being good and a victim(I really question how much of a victim she is) of circumstance rather than telling me about it. I'm not going to feel sympathetic for Azula just because apparently she had the potential to be better. If she does, great for her. If she doesn't, all the better for the rest of the world.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yep. Ozai was the cause of every single problem in Azula. Without him she'd shit rainbows. I'll stick to the series that can actually show me the villain being good and a victim(I really question how much of a victim she is) of circumstance rather than telling me about it. I'm not going to feel sympathetic for Azula just because apparently she had the potential to be better. If she does, great for her. If she doesn't, all the better for the rest of the world. A series can be subtle enough to get its point across without having to make it explicit. Avatar did this with Azula, implying that Ozai was the cause of her super sociopathic silliness.

Whereas Light... Is just a total shitbag who becomes a megolamaniac when given the power to make it come true.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by NemeBro
A series can be subtle enough to get its point across without having to make it explicit. Avatar did this with Azula, implying that Ozai was the cause of her super sociopathic silliness.

Whereas Light... Is just a total shitbag who becomes a megolamaniac when given the power to make it come true.

Or it just doesn't provide enough and we have to be told that "Yes she would have been a good person if not for dear old dad." Keep in mind, being explicit enough that people can actually see the effect of the circumstances on the characters is kind of a good thing. I'd certainly rather have it that Azula's "I'm a bit of a *****, maybe I should change...moment's gone!"

And keep in mind the argument of "If X had been loved by their parents, they might not have turned out so bad" was something that was almost said word by word about this fine piece of work in one of the books but I've never heard of him being considered sympathetic or tragic. Cause he's really not. I don't feel sorry for him, he's evil. I don't feel sorry for Azula, she's a psycho.

Nephthys
I was unironically rooting for Light throughout most of Death Note btw.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was unironically rooting for Light throughout most of Death Note btw.

Huh...

You don't seem the type to root for Light.mmm

NemeBro
That is because you're a pedophile Nephthys.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or it just doesn't provide enough and we have to be told that "Yes she would have been a good person if not for dear old dad." Keep in mind, being explicit enough that people can actually see the effect of the circumstances on the characters is kind of a good thing. I'd certainly rather have it that Azula's "I'm a bit of a *****, maybe I should change...moment's gone!"

And keep in mind the argument of "If X had been loved by their parents, they might not have turned out so bad" was something that was almost said word by word about this fine piece of work in one of the books but I've never heard of him being considered sympathetic or tragic. Cause he's really not. I don't feel sorry for him, he's evil. I don't feel sorry for Azula, she's a psycho. Nah.

Nephthys
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Huh...

You don't seem the type to root for Light.mmm

Light may have been crazy but I believed in how he was improving the world. He successfully eliminated crime and war. Think about how many lives he saved.

TheAuraAngel
Eh...I liked how Near put it at the end when he verbally chewed out Light lol.

Nephthys
I don't really care if Light is a crazy murderer if more good than bad comes from his actions.

TheAuraAngel
Well sure...but it eventually got to the point where Light was killing people who were lazy. Well, Mikami was. Light said that it was too soon to start doing that.

Nephthys
Light could have just have been humoring his beliefs. If it got to that stage then yeah I wouldn't be able to support him, but it didn't in the story.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Nephthys
Light could have just have been humoring his beliefs. If it got to that stage then yeah I wouldn't be able to support him, but it didn't in the story.

Of course you wouldn't cause he'd kill you, you lazy ****. uhuh

Nephthys
I'm not lazy I'm just effortly-challenged!

socool8520
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, I don't think it is very close at all. For me, Avatar has got the better plot and pacing, a higher number of interesting and developed characters, and better humor. Naruto fights are more fun to watch though, and while I do find Avatar's history and mythology extremely cool, I think Naruto's background mythos has the edge right now.

Note that I am comparing it to the manga, not the Anime, which I find to be worse than the Manga in most areas except fight choreography.

And of course, female fighters are actually incredibly badass in Avatar. 313

That's wierd i kinda like both equally. true, Naruto has way too many fillers, but the Arc more than make up for them imo.

Also, What females were really epic besides Toph (favorite female by the way), Kitara, and Azula? Well, also that blood bending chick.

Naruto series had some decent females. Temari, Guren, Tsunade when she wants to be.

TheAuraAngel
Ty Lee and throwing knives. Suki isn't really awesome.

But hey, 5 good females is enough for a lot of people. Comparatively, Naruto has far fewer awesome girls...Though I can see some good arguments.

socool8520
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ty Lee and throwing knives. Suki isn't really awesome.

But hey, 5 good females is enough for a lot of people. Comparatively, Naruto has far fewer awesome girls...Though I can see some good arguments.

I never count her though since any of the the bender females I mentioned should handle her unless she somehow gets close.

Lunacyde
I think Avatar is the better show, but it's not truly anime so some may use that as a disqualification.

Avatar has stronger characterization, plot, and plays with a lot of deep and profound meaning. A lot of the subtext in Avatar goes right over the heads of children because it's so complex and sophisticated. Avatar's characters are a lot more dynamic in my opinion.

Lunacyde
Originally posted by Q99
Avatar the Last Airbender is one of the more tightly designed shows. In the entire three seasons, which episodes are worth losing?

Great Divide and... that's about it.

Yeah, there are a few epiodes where it doesn't advance the plot, however these episodes almost alway deepened our understanding of a character and their motivations/history and provided dynamic development.

Lunacyde
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Imo, naruto is better at creating emotional moments, there a ton in part one but the death of jiraya and naruto moping around after......man tears

The Tale of Iroh gets my eyes wet every time.


Aang was a fully realized Avatar. Avatar State gives him the entire knowledge of all his past lives. So really he was 1000 fully realized Avatars rolled into one.

Demonic Phoenix
Aang wasn't a fully realized Avatar until the end of the fight.
But that's moot, as I don't think Roku really stated that Ozai would be able to match a fully realized Avatar.

dadudemon
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Imo, naruto is better at creating emotional moments, there a ton in part one but the death of jiraya and naruto moping around after......man tears

Oh man, yeah. I remember that. When I watched that episode, my grandfather just died and Jiraiya was a strong grandfather type character for Naruto. Got to meh. pained

Lunacyde
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Aang wasn't a fully realized Avatar until the end of the fight.
But that's moot, as I don't think Roku really stated that Ozai would be able to match a fully realized Avatar.
He also was getting beaten until the end of the fight.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Lunacyde
He also was getting beaten until the end of the fight.

Because he was too...nice?....to send the lightning attack right back into Ozai's skull.

Lunacyde
True enough. Lightening redirection was a wildcard.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Lunacyde
He also was getting beaten until the end of the fight.

Aang held his own, until Lightning came into the fight, at which point he had a mental handicap.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh man, yeah. I remember that. When I watched that episode, my grandfather just died and Jiraiya was a strong grandfather type character for Naruto. Got to meh. pained http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/camron.gif

The Big O
I'm a little late, but what was wrong with the end of Avatar? I'm honestly curious.

TheAuraAngel
The energybending and, for me anyway, the activation of the Avatar State via random rock.

The Big O
I suppose the energybending WAS a cop-out (even though Aang didn't want to kill and the writers had to make him win) but you gotta admit that that random rock totally saved Aang's life.

If that random rock wasn't in that random spot and Ozai hadn't randomly knocked Aang against it to the point that his back injury randomly hit it in the exact spot that was blocking his chakra, Aang would have died and the three years would have been an utter waste.

Bullmonkéy
Naruto. Avatar bores the hell outta me

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