Anti-Monitor vs Death of the Endless

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Urban Ninja
Who wins .

Cogito
The Endless are much more the embodiment of their abstract concepts than Marvel's, IMO. IIRC, the only way Death of the Endless would cease to exist is if all life ceased.

So it would stand to reason that if the Anti-Monitor destroyed everything, that Death would cease to exist. Except he'd still be alive, and I don't know if he would have to die for Death to end.

So yeah, doesn't work like Marvel where Death runs and/or gets kicked to the curb every time there's a big baddie around the corner.

Galan007
^ I completely agree. I've always liked the fact that DC deals with the Endless as concepts first, and characters second.

For instance, we saw in this scene that Death and Destiny are the last 'things' that survive at the end of all things:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12228668_d1.jpg

Once everything else is destroyed, the concept Destiny embodies no longer has any meaning--so Death takes him. Once Destiny is gone, there is no longer a need for the concept Death embodies, as everything else throughout creation is dead... So her final task is to: "put it all in order, and lock the place behind her as she leaves."

Loved that scene. droolio

---

Anyway, in a one-on-one battle, there is really no way AM can kill/beat the concept of Death... Sounds like an oxymoron, actually.

Death wins.

NemeBro
How does Death on the other hand defeat AM?

Galan007
Hard to say. The Endless weren't centered around battled/feats. They're more infallible then that.

All I know is that AM cannot harm her.

NemeBro
Some beings are beyond her power and influence though, no?

I know Lucifer was, how about the Spectre?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by NemeBro
Some beings are beyond her power and influence though, no?

I know Lucifer was, how about the Spectre?

IIRC , didn't Lucy admit that he could die ?

Galan007
Originally posted by NemeBro
Some beings are beyond her power and influence though, no?

I know Lucifer was, how about the Spectre? I assume this is the scene you're referring to:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12229422_d0.jpg
Lucifer: "You have no claim on me."

However,earlier on these comments were made:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12229424_d1.jpg
Lucifer: "From birth to death. How small our circuits are. How unerringly we find the paths that will unmake us... Even we who call ourselves immortal."

Death: "I know, I know. Not quite time, YET."

I think that Lucifer may have meant that Death had no claim on him at THAT point in time. After all, we know Angels can be killed under the right circumstances... And Death certainly implied that she would eventually take Lucifer. /shrug

---

Anyway, AM has been killed before--so he is definitely not beyond Death's influence.

Cogito
^ Yet Michael, when he died in the void, returned to life immediately thereafter.

So, Death, with regards to Michael (& Lucifer, presumably) remains ambiguous.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
^ Yet Michael, when he died in the void, returned to life immediately thereafter.

So, Death, with regards to Michael (& Lucifer, presumably) remains ambiguous. That scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him? Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug

That was his problem, from my interpretation. He wasn't killed...he was kept by Sandalphon in a nearly dead state but never allowed to die. Perhaps he could have killed himself, but that would have released his energies and destroyed creation.

That's how I read it, at least.

Galan007
^ So Michael can only reform after he 'dies'? Crikey, that doesn't make sense to me. Guess it is a logical answer though--depending on your interpretation.

Either way, I still don't think Lucifer is beyond Death in the literal sense. If anything had the potential to die, be destroyed, etc. then Death has some stake in them--and imo, Lucifer's own statement coupled with Death's remark, implies that he can/will die at some point.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
^ So Michael can only reform after he 'dies'? Crikey, that doesn't make sense to me. Guess it is a logical answer though--depending on your interpretation. I feel like my interpretation was supported by some statement on panel. I'll look into it when I have time.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, I still don't think Lucifer is beyond Death in the literal sense. If anything had the potential to die, be destroyed, etc. then Death has some stake in them--and imo, Lucifer's own statement coupled with Death's remark, implies that he can/will die at some point. We'll never know now.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
I feel like my interpretation was supported by some statement on panel. I'll look into it when I have time. Cool. I don't remember seeing that type of comment, but it has also been a long time since I read the Lucifer series thoroughly--so it may very well exist.

Let me know if you find it.

Originally posted by Cogito
We'll never know now. Lucky for you. uhuh

Prep-Man
Death.

zopzop
COIE AM (at full power) stomps Her and Her entire family.

Non COIE AM is weaksauce so she wins.

Dream Stuff
Originally posted by Galan007
That scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him? Seems to me that if Michael can fully reform so easily under his own power, he would have done so eons prior to Lucifer slicing him... Instead of, you know, spending all that time near-death in a dungeon. /shrug

I don't have the scan on me, but I seem to remember Lucifer waving his hand when mike is reformed. I took that to mean that the newly omnipotent Lucifer recreated him.

Glorificus
Originally posted by zopzop
COIE AM (at full power) stomps Her and Her entire family.

Non COIE AM is weaksauce so she wins.

I have to agree with this.

Something like COIE AM should be beyond Abstracts. Just like Lucifer and Michael should be beyond Abstracts.

Regular AM would lose though. Probably by sheer "aging", in the sense that when their universe ends, he's one of the beings that'll be gone before Destiny and Death finally go.

AlmightyKfish
Death wins, it's been stated a number of times that unlike most of the Endless, Death really doesn't have any rules governing her, other than what she imposes, and can just outright kill beings (for instance, Dream, a multiversal abstract), and the Furies who were destroying the entire Dreaming and had been stated to have taken revenge on entire universes were clearly fearful of her when she got angry.



Seeing what happens at Ygdrasil later in the series, I assumed it was Lucifer who reformed Michael, seeing as later even when Elaine shunts the power into a third creation, Michael doesn't resurrect himself (although that could be put down to the fact he used Elaine as a vessal....



I'd disagree here, as powerful as COIE AM was, he was still under the influence of the Endless, as seen namely in the fact that he died. As powerful as he was there's nothing particularly abstract about him...

I'd say the big difference between AM and Michael and Lucifer is that M/L are essentially embodiments of the Presence made flesh (power/will), so are beyond essentially anything in terms of raw power (although both are still subject to Death and Destiny at least)

kevdude
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Death wins, it's been stated a number of times that unlike most of the Endless, Death really doesn't have any rules governing her, other than what she imposes, and can just outright kill beings (for instance, Dream, a multiversal abstract), and the Furies who were destroying the entire Dreaming and had been stated to have taken revenge on entire universes were clearly fearful of her when she got angry.



Seeing what happens at Ygdrasil later in the series, I assumed it was Lucifer who reformed Michael, seeing as later even when Elaine shunts the power into a third creation, Michael doesn't resurrect himself (although that could be put down to the fact he used Elaine as a vessal....



I'd disagree here, as powerful as COIE AM was, he was still under the influence of the Endless, as seen namely in the fact that he died. As powerful as he was there's nothing particularly abstract about him...

I'd say the big difference between AM and Michael and Lucifer is that M/L are essentially embodiments of the Presence made flesh (power/will), so are beyond essentially anything in terms of raw power (although both are still subject to Death and Destiny at least)

thumb up

Death of the Endless. Madame Xanadu tried binding Death, only to be told that it wouldn't work because magic doesn't really work on her, I don't think much does. Madame defining Death saying shes "The one who trumps and defines all of existence".

Btw I've always thought it was Michael just reforming himself and Lucifer moving his hands and arms in that way was something to do with his multiverse but from looking at it from Lucifer reforming Michael that makes more sense to me.

leonidas
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Death wins, it's been stated a number of times that unlike most of the Endless, Death really doesn't have any rules governing her, other than what she imposes, and can just outright kill beings (for instance, Dream, a multiversal abstract), and the Furies who were destroying the entire Dreaming and had been stated to have taken revenge on entire universes were clearly fearful of her when she got angry.



Seeing what happens at Ygdrasil later in the series, I assumed it was Lucifer who reformed Michael, seeing as later even when Elaine shunts the power into a third creation, Michael doesn't resurrect himself (although that could be put down to the fact he used Elaine as a vessal....



I'd disagree here, as powerful as COIE AM was, he was still under the influence of the Endless, as seen namely in the fact that he died. As powerful as he was there's nothing particularly abstract about him...

I'd say the big difference between AM and Michael and Lucifer is that M/L are essentially embodiments of the Presence made flesh (power/will), so are beyond essentially anything in terms of raw power (although both are still subject to Death and Destiny at least)

thumb up

there is really nothing am could do to harm her. he was a self-made uber power, but still, he was able to die.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
I assume this is the scene you're referring to:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12229422_d0.jpg
Lucifer: "You have no claim on me."

However,earlier on these comments were made:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12229424_d1.jpg
Lucifer: "From birth to death. How small our circuits are. How unerringly we find the paths that will unmake us... Even we who call ourselves immortal."

Death: "I know, I know. Not quite time, YET."

I think that Lucifer may have meant that Death had no claim on him at THAT point in time. After all, we know Angels can be killed under the right circumstances... And Death certainly implied that she would eventually take Lucifer. /shrug

---

Anyway, AM has been killed before--so he is definitely not beyond Death's influence.

Ok, so couple things as I perused some of Lucifer again.

Originally posted by Cogito
I feel like my interpretation was supported by some statement on panel. I'll look into it when I have time.
I didn't actually find anything to directly support this.

The only thing that was said (that I found), was Michael warning Sandalphon about what would happen if he were to die in his captivity:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Michael_Torture.jpg
"Sandalphon, spare me the moral. You know what I am, and what I contain. By torturing me, you put the whole of creation at terrible risk."



As for Lucifer and his ability to die, here's a more complete picture of what you posted some scans of. Some of it supports the idea that perhaps Lucifer could die, and some of it casts more doubt.

Recap: The Basanos (Plot-device incarnate) nearly kill Lucifer by burning him up. His wings (the source of his power) are almost entirely burned. The remaining two unburned fall out.

Evidence for death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/LuciferDeath1.jpg
Elaine: "Will he die? I don't think I could bear it if he died"
Meleos: "He is made of will, as your father Michael is made of power. He might survive in spite of everything. I have been doing what little I could to mend him. Because if he dies, something terrible is going to happen."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Closetodeath.jpg
Lucifer is on the brink of death. Any action could send him one way or the other.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_BusStop.jpg
Among other things, Lucifer: "I intend to surive this" (i.e. it's possible I could not?)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/God_Luciferdeath.jpg
God: "Did I not tell you that your brother Lucifer was given over to destruction? That if only Heaven held its hand, he would surely die, and all his works come to naught?"
(Michael started a chain of events that caused Elaine to save Lucifer)


Evidence against death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Flame.jpg
Elaine: "You're not going to answer my question, are you" (will he die?)
Meleos: "Where the flame goes, wood turns to charcoal, water to steam, flesh into ash. But he is not flesh, and you are not flesh."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer-FirstCreation.jpg
Meleos: "When God made the world, the first thing he created was the host of heaven, beginning with your father, Michael -- and Lucifer." "For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries"
For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Creation.jpg
Death: "You and Michael were his first big ideas. You came out pretty much undiluted"

Would those two statements not mean that it was Lucifer and Michael that created abstracts such as the Endless? It's a grey area for sure.

Through all of this though, Lucifer was powerless. Perhaps that is the only reason he could die
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Feathers.jpg
Lucifer: "Meleos -- in my wings, there should have been two feathers untouched by the flame. Did you find them?"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Death.jpg
Lucifer: "They absorbed most of my power and essence when I burned"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_powerless.jpg
Meleos: "Then you're powerless without the feathers? Lucifer, you've destroyed me. You've destroyed us all."

Galan007
thumb up Glad you found this stuff...

Originally posted by Cogito
As for Lucifer and his ability to die, here's a more complete picture of what you posted some scans of. Some of it supports the idea that perhaps Lucifer could die, and some of it casts more doubt.

Recap: The Basanos (Plot-device incarnate) nearly kill Lucifer by burning him up. His wings (the source of his power) are almost entirely burned. The remaining two unburned fall out.

Evidence for death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/LuciferDeath1.jpg
Elaine: "Will he die? I don't think I could bear it if he died"
Meleos: "He is made of will, as your father Michael is made of power. He might survive in spite of everything. I have been doing what little I could to mend him. Because if he dies, something terrible is going to happen."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Closetodeath.jpg
Lucifer is on the brink of death. Any action could send him one way or the other.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_BusStop.jpg
Among other things, Lucifer: "I intend to surive this" (i.e. it's possible I could not?)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/God_Luciferdeath.jpg
God: "Did I not tell you that your brother Lucifer was given over to destruction? That if only Heaven held its hand, he would surely die, and all his works come to naught?"
(Michael started a chain of events that caused Elaine to save Lucifer) Pretty ambiguous, but yeah, I think some of this is supportive of Lucifer being able to die... Under optimal circumstances.

Originally posted by Cogito
Evidence against death being possible
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Flame.jpg
Elaine: "You're not going to answer my question, are you" (will he die?)
Meleos: "Where the flame goes, wood turns to charcoal, water to steam, flesh into ash. But he is not flesh, and you are not flesh."

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer-FirstCreation.jpg
Meleos: "When God made the world, the first thing he created was the host of heaven, beginning with your father, Michael -- and Lucifer." "For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries"
For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Creation.jpg
Death: "You and Michael were his first big ideas. You came out pretty much undiluted"

Would those two statements not mean that it was Lucifer and Michael that created abstracts such as the Endless? It's a grey area for sure.

Through all of this though, Lucifer was powerless. Perhaps that is the only reason he could die
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Feathers.jpg
Lucifer: "Meleos -- in my wings, there should have been two feathers untouched by the flame. Did you find them?"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_Death.jpg
Lucifer: "They absorbed most of my power and essence when I burned"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/Lucifer_powerless.jpg
Meleos: "Then you're powerless without the feathers? Lucifer, you've destroyed me. You've destroyed us all." Hm, all of these scenes are also pretty ambiguous, but I still don't really see how any of it suggests that Lucifer is death-proof..?

Sidenote: Lucifer and Death's 'chat' is one of the best scenes of dialogue I've ever read. droolio

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, all of these scenes are also pretty ambiguous, but I still don't really see how any of it suggests that Lucifer is death-proof..?

It doesn't really. Just reinforcing his station.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
That scene still confuses me. Did Michael reform, or did Lucifer recreate him?

If Lucifer recreated him with a gesture, that opens a whole new dimension to Lucifer's power. It becomes easily his greatest feat, and probably the second or third best in comics.

/shrug

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