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No Mangekyo for either. Who wins?

Itachi is faster and has better genjutsu while the one advantage you can give Kakashi is better ninjutsu.

Which hardly matters to a Sharingan user...

So I give it to Itachi.

^ IDK. Itachi's best genjutsus rely on the mengekyo so I don't think he has the upper hand there. No Tsukiyomi, Izanagi, or Izanami. Itachi is faster, but Kakashi has experience with speedsters and his speed difference is not overwhelming. His greatest rival is Gai after all. Without the MS, Itachi loses alot of his advantage over Kakashi. He is basically just a quicker than average fire/water user. Kakashi has mastery over at least 3 elements and is a master of ninjutsu. This fight is really close, but I would give Kakashi the slight edge due to the lack of hax abilities for Itachi.

Elements: Kakashi has Water, Lightning, Earth
Itachi has Water, Fire

Water trumps fire and earth trumps water (while Lightning is neutral to both of Itachi's), so Kakashi got a small edge there.

Itachi's a little better at both Taijutsu and Speed.

Originally posted by socool8520
^ IDK. Itachi's best genjutsus rely on the mengekyo so I don't think he has the upper hand there. No Tsukiyomi, Izanagi, or Izanami. Itachi is faster, but Kakashi has experience with speedsters and his speed difference is not overwhelming. His greatest rival is Gai after all. Without the MS, Itachi loses alot of his advantage over Kakashi. He is basically just a quicker than average fire/water user. Kakashi has mastery over at least 3 elements and is a master of ninjutsu. This fight is really close, but I would give Kakashi the slight edge due to the lack of hax abilities for Itachi.

Nope. Itachi has used several genjutsu without the MS, such as when his clone fought Naruto and co, when he fought Sasuke, and when he fought Bee. His speed advantage can be seen when he managed to dodge all of Bee's attacks, which even Sasuke, who is comparable to Kakashi in speed and Sharingan ability, failed to deal with. And you forget, being a master of ninjutsu to a guy who can copy all you do is hardly an advantage.

Originally posted by Q99
Elements: Kakashi has Water, Lightning, Earth
Itachi has Water, Fire

Water trumps fire and earth trumps water (while Lightning is neutral to both of Itachi's), so Kakashi got a small edge there.

Itachi's a little better at both Taijutsu and Speed.

Quality trumps quantity. Kakashi has always had these advantages and Itachi still had the clear advantage when they fought before. Also, dun forget that any ninjutsu Kakashi tries can be copied by Itachi's overall superior Sharingan.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Quality trumps quantity. Kakashi has always had these advantages and Itachi still had the clear advantage when they fought before. Also, dun forget that any ninjutsu Kakashi tries can be copied by Itachi's overall superior Sharingan.

Sharingan users still never use any elemental jutsu outside their elemental releases.

Meaning they can copy each other's water jutsu, but Itachi doesn't have lightning or earth, and Kakashi doesn't have fire.

Yes and Itachi's elemental jutsus would be overpowered by their weakness. Earth beats water and Kakashi can overpower Itachi's fire with water jutsus. He is more versatile than an MS-less Itachi

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nope. Itachi has used several genjutsu without the MS, such as when his clone fought Naruto and co, when he fought Sasuke, and when he fought Bee. His speed advantage can be seen when he managed to dodge all of Bee's attacks, which even Sasuke, who is comparable to Kakashi in speed and Sharingan ability, failed to deal with. And you forget, being a master of ninjutsu to a guy who can copy all you do is hardly an advantage.

He can't copy jutsu out of his element, and he tires quick due to his illness.



Quality trumps quantity. Kakashi has always had these advantages and Itachi still had the clear advantage when they fought before. Also, dun forget that any ninjutsu Kakashi tries can be copied by Itachi's overall superior Sharingan.

Yeah, and Itachi had MS techs, so it didn't matter. He only had a clear advantage because he used Tsukiyomi, which he wouldn't have in this instance. Again, he isn't going to copy everything. Lightning and earth will still be effective.

Originally posted by Q99
Sharingan users still never use any elemental jutsu outside their elemental releases.

Meaning they can copy each other's water jutsu, but Itachi doesn't have lightning or earth, and Kakashi doesn't have fire.

Hmm didn't consider that...or rather, didn't know that was a strict rule. Especially now that it's been revealed that the Sharingan evolves into a pair of eyes that do let you use all elements.

Originally posted by socool8520
Yes and Itachi's elemental jutsus would be overpowered by their weakness. Earth beats water and Kakashi can overpower Itachi's fire with water jutsus. He is more versatile than an MS-less Itachi

Elemental advantages do not equal victory. Especially in the case of someone like Itachi. Even if the Sharingan wouldn't allow for him to copy Kakashi's attacks, he'll still see through each and everyone of them.

Itachi may be less versatile(based on showings) but he is faster and smarter. Kakashi's fighting style is easy to see through while Itachi's genjutsu is much stronger than the ones Kakashi dealt with.

Case in point: Itachi defeated Orochimaru without his MS. Kakashi pratically crapped his pants at the prospect of even fighting Orochimaru.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-264-19/naruto/chapter-259.html

The 30% Itachi clone seemed to have the upper hand against Kakashi, who needed Naruto's attack to finish him off.

Jesus...that genjutsu Itachi put Naruto in was brutally cruel....for the good guy. :T

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Elemental advantages do not equal victory. Especially in the case of someone like Itachi. Even if the Sharingan wouldn't allow for him to copy Kakashi's attacks, he'll still see through each and everyone of them.

Itachi may be less versatile(based on showings) but he is faster and smarter. Kakashi's fighting style is easy to see through while Itachi's genjutsu is much stronger than the ones Kakashi dealt with.

Case in point: Itachi defeated Orochimaru without his MS. Kakashi pratically crapped his pants at the prospect of even fighting Orochimaru.

Kakashi can see through his attacks too so what's your point? This would be an even advantage with kakashi having the upper hand in versatile jutsus.

Not sure that he is smarter, and the speed difference isn't that great. How is Kakashi's tactics easy to see through? he uses quite a few distractions and substitutions to gain the upper hand. Itachi simply spams MS techs all over the place. Not much of a strategy, more like overpowering.

Honestly i think this is a bad showing for Oro. He rushed in for some reason, and then got his hand cut off. This from the guy that can regrow limbs at will. To finish him off, he did need MS techs during the Sasuke/Itachi fight.

Originally posted by BloodRain
http://www.mangareader.net/93-264-19/naruto/chapter-259.html

The 30% Itachi clone seemed to have the upper hand against Kakashi, who needed Naruto's attack to finish him off.

I just read those chapters relating to this fight. Honestly this was a great example of Kakashi's tactics. He fooled the great Sharingan user into to putting a genjutsu on a clone while he hid in the earth. Then he was able to hold Itachi so he couldn't escape from Naruto's attack. he just as easily could have given him a chidori to the chest.

Except that the fight had Itachi >= Kakashi, with only 30% chakra.

Originally posted by socool8520
Kakashi can see through his attacks too so what's your point? This would be an even advantage with kakashi having the upper hand in versatile jutsus.

Not sure that he is smarter, and the speed difference isn't that great. How is Kakashi's tactics easy to see through? he uses quite a few distractions and substitutions to gain the upper hand. Itachi simply spams MS techs all over the place. Not much of a strategy, more like overpowering.

Honestly i think this is a bad showing for Oro. He rushed in for some reason, and then got his hand cut off. This from the guy that can regrow limbs at will. To finish him off, he did need MS techs during the Sasuke/Itachi fight.

Kakashi's sharingan is not as good as Itachi's. Kakashi is not as good as Itachi. The versatility Kakashi has over Itachi won't change that.

Itachi is smarter. And simple: Because Kakashi's techniques are relatively simple. Remember, all the clones and such didn't afford him a huge advantage when he and Itachi fought briefly before the timeskip. Afterwards, Kakashi did use clones to take on a weaker Itachi and even then he needed help.

It was a bad showing for Orochimaru....but that doesn't change the fact that really that genjutsu should be enough to deal with Kakashi. And Itachi needing MS techs to stop Orochimaru during the Sasuke fight...Umm...you do realize he was dying at the time right? He needed to move fast in order to take care of everything.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Itachi is smarter.

Nah.

Itachi still wins though.

Kakashi doesn't have fire? i recall him using Grand fireball technique.

Originally posted by marwash22
Kakashi doesn't have fire? i recall him using Grand fireball technique.

In the show.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nah.

Itachi still wins though.

You like Moria though so I dun respect your opinion.

uhuh

Its not as if I liked Hinata. Moria is awesome

Originally posted by Bentley
Its not as if I liked Hinata. Moria is awesome

Compared to Hinata, yes Moria is awesome.

Still, Luffy with 100 Shadows beat Oars and Moria with like 1000 or something couldn't beat normal Luffy. Moria are weaksauce.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Compared to Hinata, yes Moria is awesome.

Still, Luffy with 100 Shadows beat Oars and Moria with like 1000 or something couldn't beat normal Luffy. Moria are weaksauce.

Dude, don't make me go that much off topic here, Moria is awesome, deal with it, he did one-shot Oars Jr. as if he was nothing.

When Moria comes back you'll see the light again.

I do what I want! O:

But there really isn't much to say on the topic. I'm just bored.

Yeah, Itachi wins.

Originally posted by Damborgson
No Mangekyo for either. Who wins?

We're both rational Itachitards. You know who wins.

There's always LolIzanami, or sending a crow into Kakashi's mouth for an easy victory. kruemelmonsteryn0

Originally posted by socool8520
^ IDK. Itachi's best genjutsus rely on the mengekyo so I don't think he has the upper hand there. No Tsukiyomi, Izanagi, or Izanami. Itachi is faster, but Kakashi has experience with speedsters and his speed difference is not overwhelming. His greatest rival is Gai after all. Without the MS, Itachi loses alot of his advantage over Kakashi. He is basically just a quicker than average fire/water user. Kakashi has mastery over at least 3 elements and is a master of ninjutsu. This fight is really close, but I would give Kakashi the slight edge due to the lack of hax abilities for Itachi.

He hardly needs his best genjutsus for Kakashi. Kakashi's only option for avoiding one of Itachi's genjutsus is to spend the entire fight looking at Itachi's feet (which he cannot do), or use a Shadow clone.
Also, no, Itachi has Izanami. Izanami does not need an MS. Neither does Izanagi. But it's moot, as I doubt he'd use either of the jutsu against Kakashi,
Kakashi's more versatile in the ninjutsu department. Hardly matters though, as Itachi is superior when it comes to analzying his opponent and predicting their next move, close combat, speed, intelligence.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that Kakashi knew he could not beat a sick Itachi with only 30% of his chakra reserves, meaning he did not have MS for that fight.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
rational Itachitards.

Dun exist.

"What the **** is wrong with you?"

http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/1c98db09d14c50d1e9d05431c6a18bb6/http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/95132You/9595895.gif

"Don't give me that look. I taught you once before how far beneath me you are."

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj141/NarutoNindo987/Naruto/Akatsuki/Madara%20or%20Tobi/Madara.gif

"If you wanna see what's under my mask...You're gonna have to work for it."

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e87/im_mikamavvers_new_account/Naruto/Banana_1-Tobi.gif

"Those who can't acknowledge their real selves are bound to fail."

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3316/blinditachixk5.gif

Ran out of Uchiha.

Should be ashamed. uhuh

We ran out after I quoted Madara. ahah

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
We're both rational Itachitards. You know who wins.

There's always LolIzanami, or sending a crow into Kakashi's mouth for an easy victory. kruemelmonsteryn0





Well it doesn't hurt to see others knowledge his victory

I think his sharingan can stop non-mangekyo genjutsu.

Originally posted by marwash22
Kakashi doesn't have fire? i recall him using Grand fireball technique.

That was anime only, just once, and before nature release was covered in the manga.

Originally posted by Q99
I think his sharingan can stop non-mangekyo genjutsu.

Possibly. Still doesn't strike me as being as skilled as Kurenai, even if he has a Sharingan.