KMC High-Meta Championship

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JakeTheBank

JakeTheBank
Leo's opening post:

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JakeTheBank
Digi's opening post:

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leonidas
luke skywalker??? lol clap

nice. should be fun.

leonidas

Digi

Digi

leonidas
post the second

all righty, so i'll focus on digi's second post since the first one was primarily him highlighting luke's powers. and you're right digi, i DO love the outsiders. one of my fave team books. smile

this first post will focus on the TP issue (seems to be a theme with my guys! lol) since i think it requires some explanation.

firstly, well done and good post. didn't take you long to figure out that was rex and not shift in that scan. i wasn't really trying to be slick there--i absolutely knew you'd figure it out. i even gave the name of the woman so you were only a rudimentary search away from the 'discovery'. but, if it were that easy, why use it at all you say? well, i'm going to explain why i thought it might be appropriate, but judges, bear in mind i said THIS in my first post as well:

trap aside, shapeshifters in general are difficult to mind f*** by their very nature. and with my mind and consciousness so spread out, i really don't see a tp assault being effective ANYWAY.....

now, given the nature of luke's "tp", i think more than ever the attack would be ineffective REGARDLESS of the verdict on my 'bombs'. i don't want this explanation to sound like something i NEED. the trap idea was just convenient (and you'll see why it seemed logical to me as well), it isn't something that i MUST have in this match.

so far as the scan: as digi pointed, out rex and shift don't share ALL their memories, but they DO share a lot of them (shift even remembered rex's dog's name from when rex was a kid). he primarily remembers mostly big picture stuff though, feelings, and the like, and forgets some of the details. so what does that have to do with validating use of that scan? well, not to put too fine a point on it--shift IS rex. literally. he's a part of rex that "broke" off on accident and grew from him.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/origin1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/origin2c.jpg/

he was such a perfect replica that even heroes who knew rex very well like nightwing and batman, (even jade had battled at his side in the past a couple times) could not tell it WASN'T rex. be clear: he's not a clone--he's closer than that. he is PART of rex. his thought patterns, his sense of needing to do good, his sense of humor, all of it was for all intents and purposes, rex. but, where rex had to work years to develop his powers, shift was "born" with the innate ability to use his. how could that be? because he ALREADY possessed rex's experience. in fact as i showed in the first post, he actually becomes MORE powerful than rex when he learns he is his own individual.

so, after all that, what do we have? we have a piece of rex, innately capable of using his powers to a very high degree, who possesses many of rex's direct memories and many more broadly-oriented ones, whose thought patterns were so close to rex's that not even close associates like nightwing and batman could tell them apart AND who actually has BETTER control of elements than rex does. at the outset of this match, he was anticipating what he might be able to do if he faced a telepath in this blind battle. remember, he thinks like rex...... and....TA-DA! the bio-bombs seemed like a very logical illustration of what shift could be capable of creating to protect himself. and they still do. smile apologies if anyone took offense or thought i was being sly with the scan. oh, and there is no reason whatsoever to suggest he couldn't create them (or something like them) in whatever parts of his brain he wanted to.

but....please note--as digi also pointed out--the bombs may not be possible if they are actual 'physical' constructions (no real detail is given about them). recall i am in a gaseous state, utterly indistinguishable from the surrounding atmosphere. which is why, again, in my opening, i ALSO said: trap aside.....

but, if my bombs can't manifest because i (and my brain) are amorphous, how can luke affect me telepathically? it's a double-edged sword. shift is composed of unstable molecules, his physical form is literally constantly 'shifting' around. it is this property of his and rex's that allow them to assume any form. is there any proof from luke that he could affect someone like me? i am a disembodied consciousness without a physical (OR ESPECIALLY IMPORTANTLY!!) an ORGANIC mind to latch onto. this is why i said above i didn't think the trap would be necessary.

here is a fairly interesting tidbit, one that i just learned and that should put to rest the idea that ANY of his little mind tricks would work on me.

first, from wookiepedia (WOOKIEpedia, i lol'd...) under the heading FORCE ILLUSION:

Though powerful, it was not without its drawbacks. Chief among them was that it had absolutely no effect on any mind that wasn't organic, such as droids and other AI, and had a greatly reduced (or almost nonexistent) effect on Force users or Force-resistant species such as Hutts and Yuuzhan Vong.

doesn't work on minds that are not organic. well, guess what form i've shifted into at the outset of the match--yep, non-organic, gaseous martian atmosphere. not that it matters. metamorpho/shift is no longer organic in any sense of the word anyway--shift doesn't even have a circulatory system!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/nocirculatorysysytem.jpg/

so, ZERO chance the illusions would work at all on me. smile

now, his mind trick/tp powers. this from the ESSENTIAL GUIDE TO THE FORCE:

Some species, including Hutts and Toydarians, are naturally resistant or immune to Jedi mind trick as a result of their brain structure. Other creatures could learn to resist Jedi mind tricks with training.

brain structure can affect the ability of a jedi to use a mind trick. i can guarantee he has never come across a brain structure like mine. first, it's in constant motion (unstable molecular structure), second it's gaseous, third it's non-organic, and lastly it is non-localized/disembodied.

so....yeah. i don't see any way for the illusions OR his mind tricks to work.

important point: i'd love to see some proof that luke even has a CHANCE to affect me telepathically in my gaseous form. moreoever, i would like to see an example of him using his force persuasion IN DIRECT COMBAT. it's a slow moving attack, usally needing hand waving and a special voice even. NOT something you just pull out in the middle of a battle......

ok, quick recap:

--i used the rex scan because in a literal sense, shift IS rex, complete with many of his memories and thought patterns. he can innately use his powers as well as rex can, and more, he can do things even rex himself was never able to do. given the blind match and the fact that shift was attempting to come up with additional ways to protect vs tp, and given that he thinks like rex, it seemed logical to suggest he might come up with the bombs (or some close variation) himself.

--the bombs were only an additional form of protection. shift's unstable nature and his amorphous/non-organic form should be sufficient protection on their own. no physical mind=no place for luke's "tp" to latch on to and we know for certain the illusions won't work. i'll go into more detail regarding some of the misinformation digi presented regarding shift, the effectiveness of the bomb, as well as some of the inherent problems digi's offensive strategy suffers from in my next post.

ps--you're right digi, this IS fun! big grin

leonidas
post numero trois

so, mind tricks out of the way, let's take a closer look at some of the rest of what digi has said and attempted to do. first, his scans. he's right, shift IS damn hard to kill. but of course a dispersal from which he can't quickly reform in this match will count as a ko as would any other logical method of taking him out for a prolonged period of time. thumb up

that however, is not as easy as it sounds. let's look at each scan starting with this one:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5540/shift1u.jpg

it's true what digi said. but that was from VERY early on in the series. he didn't even know he wasn't REX at that point. and here is HOW that happened:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/boomg.jpg/

an unexpected and f'n HUGE mushroom cloud explosion. not sure i see luke packing that kind of power..... and even if he was, like i said, that was early shift. he got better:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/asbestos.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/576/durable1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/durable2.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/durable3.jpg/

those last scans are VERY impressive. that was a surprise attack from an amped BLACKFIRE. that attack ko'd both starfire and jade. only shift was left standing, though barely. again, i don't see luke packing that type of power.

next: http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2872/shift6.jpg and http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8884/shift9.jpg

both of these hardly need explaining. (a) he was solid. (b) both were unexpected attacks from FRIENDS and he wasn't trying to defend himself. neither of those are in play here so both those scans are utterly irrelevant. here's just a quick look at what he COULD have done to katana's blade had he been facing her:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/katanaif.jpg/

shift literally had dozens of ways to either flat out halt katana, ko her or simply avoid her attack.

then there's this one: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1387/shift4l.jpg

which is interesting. it's another back attack/surprise attack like those above and what's more, that was SHIMMER, an uber transmuter who even transmuted all of JADE's constructs.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/shimmer.jpg/

however, as you can see from the next scan, things go a little differently when shift confronts her directly:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/rematch.jpg/

he flat out BLOCKS her power and tackles her. later their battle is interrupted but it is clear she cannot transmute him--that's actually an amazing showing from shift.

the last one: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6861/shift5.jpg

is preceded by THESE ones: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/shrapnel1k.jpg/ and http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/shrapnel2.jpg/

as you can see--again--shift was solid, his mass was localized, which allowed shrapnel to collect and seal it all in one place. again, not relevant to this battle. and of course THAT battle wasn't over. air-tight means nothing to shift, who doesn't NEED to breathe. recall, he has no circulatory system even! and of course he has existed without problems in outer space. (shown above in the blackfire scan) he had ways to get out of that spot shrapnel put him in, but thanks to indy, he didn't need to show them.

leonidas

Digi
Digi Post #3

I'll follow suit and do posts 3-5 now. #'s 3 and 4 will be responding to leo. Post #5 will be some new stuff on Luke, and overarching points on the fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
firstly, well done and good post. didn't take you long to figure out that was rex and not shift in that scan. i wasn't really trying to be slick there--i absolutely knew you'd figure it out. i even gave the name of the woman so you were only a rudimentary search away from the 'discovery'. but, if it were that easy, why use it at all you say? well, i'm going to explain why i thought it might be appropriate, but judges, bear in mind i said THIS in my first post as well:

trap aside, shapeshifters in general are difficult to mind f*** by their very nature. and with my mind and consciousness so spread out, i really don't see a tp assault being effective ANYWAY.....

To be clear, my attack is a fluid one. If you're in gas form, my first approach is with TK. If I can't affect you with TP, I have other methods of victory.

However, let's remember two things:
1. For all of leo's talk about shapeshifters, telepathy DID affect him. I showed it to you. I've proven that tp can work on him. Leo has only added some speculation on his state, and how it might affect my TO attacks. Best case for leo, he's immune to TP some of the time. But that's still a pretty good case for me, because it limits what leo can do with Shift before becoming vulnerable.
2. The gas-state also prevents him from using the TP bomb trick. Leo can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by leonidas
so far as the scan: as digi pointed, out rex and shift don't share ALL their memories, but they DO share a lot of them (shift even remembered rex's dog's name from when rex was a kid). he primarily remembers mostly big picture stuff though, feelings, and the like, and forgets some of the details. so what does that have to do with validating use of that scan? well, not to put too fine a point on it--shift IS rex. literally. he's a part of rex that "broke" off on accident and grew from him.

I'm not going to BS judges, and you haven't either (so far shifty ). Here's what we DON'T know:
- We don't know for sure whether or not Shift has the ability to perform the tp bomb feat. Leo honestly has as much chance of guessing correctly as I do.

Here's what we DO know:
- The independent character that is Shift, before he was absorbed and effectively killed permanently, existed before the TP bomb feat. Shift no longer existed as an independent by that point...it was only Metamorpho. He also didn't exist independently of Metamorpho any time after the feat.

Frankly, it's a little odd, like drafting Superman Blue and claiming the feats of Superman. This is a murky point - one that leo and I won't settle between us, but that the judges will have to decide upon. I don't think it's likely that Shift can claim this feat, especially once I showed the lack of memory transfer with an aspect of Metamorpho after the TP feat. But I've presented my evidence. It makes this tactic extremely suspect. Judges, have fun.

Originally posted by leonidas
here is a fairly interesting tidbit, one that i just learned and that should put to rest the idea that ANY of his little mind tricks would work on me.

first, from wookiepedia (WOOKIEpedia, i lol'd...) under the heading FORCE ILLUSION:

Though powerful, it was not without its drawbacks. Chief among them was that it had absolutely no effect on any mind that wasn't organic, such as droids and other AI, and had a greatly reduced (or almost nonexistent) effect on Force users or Force-resistant species such as Hutts and Yuuzhan Vong.

doesn't work on minds that are not organic. well, guess what form i've shifted into at the outset of the match--yep, non-organic, gaseous martian atmosphere. not that it matters. metamorpho/shift is no longer organic in any sense of the word anyway--shift doesn't even have a circulatory system!

Sorry dude, apparently the rules don't apply to Luke:
"Luke?"
SD-XX emerged from his security station and ran his electronic gave around the perimeter of the cabin, then reported, "There's no one here, Colonel."
"What about Luke Skywalker?" Caedus asked.
"I was just talking to him."
SD-XX fixed his blue photoreceptors on Caedus' face. "You were talking," he said. "But there was no one here. I assumed your circuits were misfiring again."

Caedus considered this, wondering whether his anxiety over being discovered might be making him imagine things. Then he remembered Gavin Darklighter had not only spoken to Luke, but also reacted to his instructions.

"No, he was here." Caedus opened himself to the battlemeld again and felt his uncle among the other Jedi, his presence filled with sadness and disapproval...and admonition. "I don't know how, but he was here."

That was Luke fooling a droid's sensors with an illusion. RIGHT AFTER making an entire fleet appear to Darth Caedus, panicking him into action. So, droids, Force users, check. Luke's illusions are top ****ing notch.

Here's him creating an illusion inside an orbiting spaceship, while Luke himself is on the planet's surface. Notice that it fools his sister, by this time a competent Jedi:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3928/48786734.jpg

I mean, Shift (and Metamorpho before him) are originally humans, and we know telepathy can affect him. I see this is a non-issue. Luke can manage entire fleets of illusions to confuse Dark Lords. A simple distraction will not be an issue.

Originally posted by leonidas
important point: i'd love to see some proof that luke even has a CHANCE to affect me telepathically in my gaseous form. moreoever, i would like to see an example of him using his force persuasion IN DIRECT COMBAT. it's a slow moving attack, usally needing hand waving and a special voice even. NOT something you just pull out in the middle of a battle......

He has shut down minds in the middle of an aerial battle. He hated doing it - not normally in his character - but it's well within his power. I will search for the reference.

Here's another good one:
The Luke-sized lieutenant frowned as he entered the stall, Luke right behind him. "What are you talking about, I don't see any uh---? What...?"

This last was uttered as Luke used the Force to take control of the man's thoughts. ...Luke ordered the man to strip, then have a seat and a nice long nap.

Digi
Digi Post #4

Originally posted by leonidas
post numero trois

I'll truncate this. The gist was that leo was extolling Shift's abilities to reform. And he has some good feats, no doubt. Several points:

1. The feats I showed were not simply "early" feats. They were from all over his canon. He does not simply instantaneously reform the vast, vast majority of the time.
2. The source of the attack shouldn't matter. Shift saw his friend's gun pointed at him - for one example. The fact that he couldn't reform had nothing to do with being surprised.
3. The fight against the transmuter makes no difference. Once he was shattered in solid form, he was out for an entire issue. If I do that to him, which we know I can (lightsaber, TK, or both), he's dead. Period.
4. No one's completely innocent of this, but there was some selective scans-showing going on. "Here's Shift being dispersed. Now here he is when he gets back, and he's PISSED." Paraphrased, of course, but that was leo's idea. But that's missing the point. The point is, lots of things disperse Shift. Explosions, gunshots, swords, winds, husky sneezes, etc. And showing him when he reforms pages later or issues later means nothing, because if I disperse him to begin with, I can keep the pressure up indefinitely.

Want to see the whole fight with the speedster? I don't really need to show it, but I can if needed. The speedster deals with Shift, then deals with half a dozen others before actually being tagged and temporarily stopped by Cpt. Boomerang Jr. My point is, I can do exactly what the speedster did to ruin Shift but I don't have the teammates to deal with while Shift gets his second wind.

Originally posted by leonidas
as i said, at the outset shift has assumed a massive, gaseous form, completely indistinguishable from the enveloping atmosphere. i said he might cover a city block's worth of space, but that is a conservative estimate... now, let's examine digi's proposed 'tornado' attack and look at the problems with it.

(1) digi says luke's best feat is tk'ing a house, or rather, a 'hermitage'. i'll be spread out over a MUCH larger distance than that.

The reference also says he hurled said maelstrom, several tons worth by that time (minimum) beyond sight. So if you take the feat in its entirety, we're talking about more than a few meters of space, to put it mildly.

Also, what does being the size of a city block get you? I'm a human in this fight. All it gets you is a lot of unused property, so to speak. If you want to harm me, you'll have to come to me. And nothing you do is getting through my shielding or withstanding my attacks.

Originally posted by leonidas
(2) that attack also presupposes that his tornado attack is something he would go for immediately. given his jedi nature, THAT seems enormously unlikely in the extreme:

usually in these things we say cis is off. but for luke i think it would be a little different. even here he has to fight like a jedi would fight. i mean he's the very definition of the jedi. that means that he wouldn't know what a tornado might do to me or if that kind of force would be necessary to incapacitate me. seems EXTREMELY unlikely that he would make that his first option.

Bull. I'm not sure if this is a play on the judges or a legit opinion, but we control our characters. This is not a CIS-on fight. Tourneys have never been that way.

CIS Luke goes to ground for a series of days, trying to reach out in the Force for benevolent lifeforms, and he'd attempt to talk with Shift before attacking. And we know that's not happening. So cut this out.

Btw, Luke isn't Cap, Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, etc. He kills. He doesn't enjoy it, but he kills when he needs to.

Originally posted by leonidas
(3) the attack, as described, seemed very......slow, deliberate. i mean he had to search for weak points, break things down, get them spinning then hurl them away. and it seems as though it was a very difficult feat for him, requiring a great deal of focus. this isn't god-cable, who thinks something and it happens. nor is it flash, who tornadoed shift before shift even knew what was happening. luke needs to focus and things seem to build more slowly in the star wars world. think of all the movies--even yoda lifting the fighter from the bog took time and focus. as soon as shift had the idea that even PART of his mass was being impacted by his opponent, he would change tactics to deal with it. (see below for multi-assault tactic).

You're inviting disaster here. You really think I don't have other TK feats prepared?

Farther down the pass, Luke gestured as if making an upward palm strike against the empty air. Meters away, the farthest rancor stumbled backward and fell, landing full on its rider.

Remembers rancors? Luke fought one in "Return of the Jedi" beneath Jabba's palace. That was him flooring one with a palm strike in the air in front of him.

So, ya know, I'm not going to say the maelstrom will be instantaneous, but I'm pretty sure a few quick palm strikes (enhanced by Force reactions, mind you) are enough to push some gas in a dozen different directions, or crumble you if you decide to make yourself solid. The build-up time to some impressive feats is not long for Luke.

Keep pushing though, I have more if needed.

Digi

leonidas
post V

TP ISSUES

i'll not go too much into this issue this time. i presented my reasoning for believing that shift is capable of a feat similar to what rex performed. shift IS rex, literally. here is one more scan to prove how close they were. arsenal is asking 'rex' how much he remembers:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/memory1k.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/memory2y.jpg/

i added the second scan to show that even the scientists at STAR labs (after all their studies) didn't know he wasn't rex. like i said, his thoughts, his actions, his ability to use his powers....all these things were based on rex.

digi said that for all my talk, the scan showed rex could be affected by a telepath. wellll, not exactly--the scan showed that when rex was knowingly going to FACE a tp, he could develop ways to PROTECT himself. oddly, it was the other personalities within rex that were his weakness. that is not relevant here. like rex, shift will have anticipated he'd be facing a tp, he would have thought about ways to protect himself and he has no other personalities. maybe he wouldn't do the exact same thing. that phobia scan was meant to illustrate that shift IS capable of protecting against tp. maybe he simply relocates parts of his brain. maybe he CAN make the bombs.

IF the bomb went off, luke would certainly be stunned. phobia was knocked on her arse, nose bleeding, shocked for a few seconds. luke has human durability and digi has shown nothing to indicate otherwise. blasters and sabers would kill him. kicks and punches hurt him. and finding a bomb WOULD stun him. that would be PLENTY of time for me to finish him off. and luke's little danger sense wouldn't help him in any way at all. the danger he senses would be ALL AROUND HIM. for more on this fact, see next couple posts. suffice to say, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY he would pinpoint my psyche as a 'danger' to be avoided so quickly. he would try his scan, the bomb would work or it wouldn't. if it doesn't, it's not because he had a warning (think spidey in a whole room of danger) but rather because in my disembodied state he can't use his mind trick at all. and recall--there is no proof i could be mind tricked in this form (never happened to shift in any book, and it never happened to REX--and he's been around for a LONG time....). on top of THAT fact, luke himself has no proof he could affect anyone in such a state.

no proof AGAINST me. no proof FOR luke. i think the chances of his mind trick working is extremely small. and if the mind trick won't work, neither will his illusions. how do i know? welllll....digi told me:



his illusions are based on intrusion. but, since he can't enter my mind, no illusions. smile

leonidas
6th post



lol

1. he actually DOES reform, nearly every time. and the only times he didn't he was surprised or more power was brought to bear than luke possesses. when prepared, he reformed almost instantly FROM BEING AT GROUND ZERO OF A NUCLEAR EXPLOSION! THAT is what he can do when he is NOT surprised

2/3. the source shouldn't matter? huh? shift's injury had EVERYTHING to do with his being surprised. he was backing away from arsenal, not even TRYING to defend when he was shot. katana sliced him (and her sword is likely>lightsaber) from behind and in both he was solid and they were friends. shimmer FORCED his transformation. when he faced her he was immune to her powers. and above all--NONE of those have any relevance here. at all. no expression

4. eh? restating a bunch of irrelevant low-end, contextually-based feats=/=making feats in any way relevant. and my 'idea' was that luke isn't jay. jay DID incapacitate shift, legitimately but briefly. shift underestimated jay and paid for it. it is NOT a feat luke could duplicate though. as i said, luke's powers take time. jay grabbed and spun him at legit comicbook style superspeeds, and it happened so fast shift couldn't alter his form. if luke tried his own little tornado attack (something that has a ton of problems) i WOULD have time to react to it and alter my attack approach. THAT was my idea.



not really. once i throw a rock it is no longer in my control. that is all luke did--gathered his energy and hurled them. least that is how i read that. if you have proof otherwise feel free to share.



heh. i just calls em like i sees em. if i kill someone, or superman kills someone in a tourney battle it's different than if luke does so. different how?

from one of the novels: "Fear, anger, aggression: the dark side they are. Yoda had taught him that his methods were as critical as his motives. If he used dark power, even in self-defense, the cost of his soul might be disastrous. He relaxed into the Force. Clinging to control for the sake of his soul and his sanity, he amplified the pitiful will."


like i said, i think things are different for luke. going cis-less could actually CHANGE luke, make him different. now i'm not saying luke won't try and kill me--jedi's DO kill. i just think the MANNER of his attack may still need to be considered. obviously digi disagrees and i'm happy to let you judges come to your own conclusions.

leonidas
lucky 7

that issue aside, i STILL have a MAJOR issue with luke trying his tk tornado attack, namely HE DOESN'T KNOW I'M A GAS. i've already said i have no doubt he can sense my general presence. but that presence would be everywhere around him. would he think 'omg, my opponent can instantly change into a gas and become completely indistinguishable from the environment!' i have my doubts. ESPECIALLY because no one in the stars wars EU HAS that ability. but i can do better--i can SHOW you this type of leap in logic is NOT one luke would make:





i trust you can see the parallels? luke sees an empty space (the corridor). his danger sense/"precog" tingles but he sees nothing specific. what does he do? HE ACTIVELY LOOKS FOR TRAPS, and walks on. does he think, 'holy crap, there is a guy in there that can turn into a gas, i just know it!'? surprisingly, no, that is NOT his first thought. my abilities would be UTTERLY foreign to him in every way. he would have no way to have prepared for them.

but that paragraph is even more enlightening: even ACTIVELY seeking out traps luke was caught unawares. his danger sense is NOT nearly as good or specific as digi wants you to think. even FOCUSING on it, luke couldn't find the trap. he had NO CHANCE FOR DEFENSE. HE HAD NO SHIELDS, EVEN THOUGH HE GUESSED IT WAS A TRAP. why? because he was focusing on his danger sense, and jedi NEED focus to perform feats (more on this later). the pain he felt kept him from focusing and forming a shield even AFTER the trap was sprung. he couldn't even stop himself from falling!! it took him several seconds and quite a beating to get himself together to defend himself.


match translation: luke gets to the planet, sees nothing, senses danger but can't pinpoint it. if (as he did "on panel"wink luke decides to try and focus this danger sense HE CAN'T THROW UP A SHIELD. if he throws a shield up, he has to focus on the shield and his danger sense either disappears or is greatly reduced. for all digi's talk about multi-tasking, luke is actually a very poor multi-tasker. it's not his fault--it's the nature of the force and jedis in general. again, more on this in a little bit. but, i think you can see from that quote above, it is unlikely in the EXTREME that luke would even GO for a tornado style attack, mainly because it would never occur to him that i have assumed the form of a massive cloud of atmospheric gas.

i have an advantage here--shift could easily have anticipated all of luke's abilities--luke could NEVER have anticipated mine. THAT is a very large edge in my favor.


so, what if he experimentally tries his tk 'push'? well, think of an empty room. now picture it filled to your knees with smoke. now put a large book in your hands and drop it on the ground. what happens? SOME of the smoke disperses a ways, but the large majority remains intact before simply filling in the void made by the book. i'm the smoke, luke is the book. given the size i have assumed, luke would need a MASSIVE (bigger by far than anything he showed us so far) push to disperse my form in any way at all that could be a problem for me. please recall--I WITHSTOOD FORCED DISPERSION BY A NUKE!! not sure if anyone knows this, but the fireball associated with a nuke can be upwards of 5KM in width! that is a lot, LOT bigger than the city block size i have assumed. there is nothing that i have seen from luke that would indicate his tk has either the necessary force OR range to seriously affect me as a whole. forgetting again the fact that it is unlikely he would simply gather himself and focus on trying to perform THAT level of an attack when he wouldn't have any idea that i've assumed a gaseous state in the first place. and even if he did, it WOULD take some extreme focus to perform that level of tk, and while he was focusing he would be shieldless and i could finish this up quickly and neatly via orifice intrusion. big grin


so, to recap:

--he showed a bunch of completely irrelevant feats and tried to make you think they WERE relevant. i trust everyone will see them for what they were--failed attempts at low-balling

--i DO think there is something to be said for luke's character in this match. unlike most characters, LUKE's character is an INHERENT weakness (like k-nite for kal) and his power is seemingly a direct corollary of it. sure he still kills, but as yoda said, method seems to matter. do with it as you will

--his aforementioned 'tornado' attempt would never occur to him, would take too long for him to perform and would form too slowly anyway

--luke's danger sense is not what digi would like it to be. even while focused solely on it he couldn't perceive a trap right in front of him. there is no proof luke is anywhere NEAR the multi-tasker that digi is implying he is

--luke's tk lacks the power and range to disperse me in my current size and form--if a nuke can't do it, neither can luke

--he has no proof his mind tricks would affect me in this form, and if he DID try tp, he wouldn't be able to maintain his shields and i could end this extremely quickly.

i'll finish up in the next post.

leonidas
8

okay, so luke is a tough guy to get info on and show in a meaningful way. but i found a few things that i think are pretty relevant to this match up. most of them center around his need to focus or concentrate to perform feats beyond the commonplace. it's a definite weakness, and one that (contrary to what digi would have you believe) PREVENTS multi-tasking--at least complex multi-tasking. here are a few examples:
















ok, so, let's look at these scenes a little bit.


1. in the first scene, jacen knew that as soon as luke's concentration faded, so would his power.


2. the second one says EXACTLY what i said previously--namely that luke can NOT use his lightsaber AND keep a shield up at the same time. his focus is on his lightsaber, so no shield is available. likewise, he couldn't use tp+shield, or lightsaber+tp. in short, his multi-tasking sucks. luke knew in the second piece that if he missed parrying a shot, he would die. simple as.


3. in the third one, we see again he needs to ACTIVELY focus the force to perform a task


4. in the 4th, he can sense a stranger because he is ALREADY immersed in the force.


5. we can see punches and kicks hurt him--badly. no healing, no shields, no mind tricks, in short, no multi-tasking combinations of powers, nothing at all to resemble the type of offense digi would have you believe luke is capable of. just straight h2h and a lot of pain.

this isn't luke's fault, it doesn't mean he's not powerful. in star wars terms he is a beast. but in the comic world? luke brings nothing new to the table. luke's powers work slowly compared with the instant and at times massive effects of regular comic book characters, and for more complex feats luke needs to take time to actively focus his abilities (his tornado feat is another example).

more proof? here is luke taken by surprise (no auto-danger sense.....)


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/forcefail.jpg/

and here is a jedi master (a clone actually, but with all the original's power):


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/forcefail2.jpg/

even a MASTER can only focus on one thing. again, no auto, shields. you don't have to look past the movies to see this point. jedi constantly block shots from hitting each other's backs. they focus on their sabers but leave themselves open to other attacks (and of course his saber is effectively useless in this match). for even MORE literary proof of some of luke's vulnerabilities, i'd urge the judges to check out the luke respect forum. go to the very bottom of the first page and see the hell jacen puts luke through in a 1on1 battle. note the distinct lack of shielding/mind tricking, and note the limited and unimpressive uses of tk by both masters.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=532457 (read last post: Fight with Darth Caedus/Jacen Solo)


and for good measure, here is one more:





a couple things here--first, we see again how vital it is he is not distracted when he is performing a complex feat. second, he is EXHAUSTED from maintaining a couple illusions despite channeling EXTRA power for the feat. thirdly, again, it is made clear how intrinsic his CHARACTER is to his powers and abilities. more food for thought.

SO MANY OFFENSIVE OPTIONS.....

in the event someone questions my offense (how that could happen i have no idea....) but, a few posts back, i went through how i thought the match would happen. that really hasn't changed. i have been completely consistent and forced digi to come up with ways to answer my initial attack. but he hasn't come up with answers. to reiterate my thoughts:

we appear on mars. i assume gaseous form. luke senses i'm around but i'm everywhere and his precog can't pinpoint me. he could try and focus on his tp in an effort to better locate my mind, but he would very likely fail (no proof he could succeed) and he would leave himself shieldless. in that time, i could easily cover the distance between us (he might feel me as a soft breeze) and without shields i enter his body as he breathes and finish him. if he elects to keep his shields up and forego tp (there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROOF HE CAN DO BOTH simultaneously) then he stills doesn't have proof that the shields are AIR-TIGHT. (there is irony here--digi says i've not stated how i get past his shields--it's been the opposite this whole match!! digi has never ONCE indicated how he doesn't die, even IF he is shielded, or how his shields protect him from my gaseous nature). basically, he stands there knowing danger is everywhere, but uncertain what to do about it, waiting to see what happens and.....falls dead before he understands what is going on. his saber is useless. his shield is useless. his tp is useless. he could try and scatter SOME of my mass, but he wouldn't know where to push IF pushing randomly around him even OCCURRED to him! if he DOES push, i reform almost instantly, still invisible to him, and could simply use some of my mass to become the GROUND under him and attack him from below (IF HE'S PUSHING HE HAS NO SHIELDS).

if, (for some reason i can't fathom), he does push some of me, or his shield does work (he can't do anything but maintain his shield) then i shift form, become a flood of acid that would literally eat the ground beneath us and leave him falling (he would need to focus on protecting against the acid and in turn wouldn't be able to save himself when he was slammed into the ground), become reactive chemicals and blow him into a million pieces (shield strength has not been shown to be nearly strong enough to keep him safe from such an attack), or solidify a monstrous hand and slam and crush him, pinning his arms so he can't even use his saber.


the fluidity of my offense, my ability to change tactics so quickly and use such massively damaging attacks would be far too much for luke to deal with. he has no control of anything in this match and he is CONSTANTLY going to be on the defensive. he is caught in my gaseous form, or caught in my liquid acid flood, or he is a piece of kindling in a massive explosion or he is an insect as i solidify parts of myself and literally smash him to nothing. all of these things would happen one after the other, and all would prevent him from focusing to achieve anything of significance.

and of course all of that is necessary ONLY if he can convince anyone he doesn't die as soon as he takes a couple of deep, force-focusing breaths right at the outset of the match.

shift is unlike anything luke has ever seen. he could never anticipate my powers and has no defense for my versatility and power.

Digi
Digi Post #6

Originally posted by leonidas
i'll not go too much into this issue this time. i presented my reasoning for believing that shift is capable of a feat similar to what rex performed. shift IS rex, literally. here is one more scan to prove how close they were. arsenal is asking 'rex' how much he remembers:

Aaaand if you believe after all the back and forth that leo can actually perform this stunt, which remains dubious at best, I still have pre-cog to prevent me from wading into a trap.

Literally every time Luke makes a Force-enhanced movement, it's with the Force. Every blaster bolt deflected...pre-cog. I think leo drudged up an instance where he didn't predict something. Which is utterly meaningless. Using any amount of Luke's power will result in me avoiding this.

Originally posted by leonidas
digi said that for all my talk, the scan showed rex could be affected by a telepath. wellll, not exactly--the scan showed that when rex was knowingly going to FACE a tp, he could develop ways to PROTECT himself.

There's a logical Catch-22 here. Why would he need to protect himself from a telepath if he couldn't be affected?

Judges, do the math. TP is a viable tactic to use against Shift.

Originally posted by leonidas
his illusions are based on intrusion. but, since he can't enter my mind, no illusions. smile

I enjoy firsts for myself in tourneys. So here's a good one.

I was wrong. I posted a reference where telepathic intrusion was used to display an illusion. I wrongly extrapolated that that meant he always needed telepathic intrusion. Let's look at some common sense examples:

- The fleet illusion that freaked out Jacen Solo - Jacen was practically Luke's equal at that time. No way in hell Luke mind-tricks him from literally hundreds of miles away.
- Leo actually provided a feat that proves my point:
Trying not to be distracted by his son-or by the steadily growing shudder of the barrage of dartship.......The shuddering stopped. Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart.

Ok, so leo uses this to show us that Luke was exhausted (more on that later). It's also worth noting that I provided this feat in my very first post. Behold!
Originally posted by Digi
- During the early days of the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of the Jade Shadow to fool the attacking dartships. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shriveled like Palpatine's.
- A year later Luke applied the same trick on the DR919a, by then Luke already mastered the technique and would no longer burn out.

So we learn two things. One, there's no way in hell Luke was in the minds of every being he created these illusions to fool. There were hundreds, and Luke's concentration was elsewhere.

Two, check out the 2nd of the feats I posted there. That's right, all of leo's bluster about Luke burning out...negated. Outdated information is outdated, and a selective perspective can create any view seem rational, even when it isn't.

So I was wrong about tp being necessary for illusions. And it's to my advantage that I was, because my earlier assertion actually would've handicapped me, if true.

So. Illusion Storm. Remember when I said I'm going "full-on Mysterio on his ass." That's still on. Shift will have no idea what's going on.

Originally posted by leonidas
4. eh? restating a bunch of irrelevant low-end, contextually-based feats=/=making feats in any way relevant. and my 'idea' was that luke isn't jay. jay DID incapacitate shift, legitimately but briefly. shift underestimated jay and paid for it. it is NOT a feat luke could duplicate though. as i said, luke's powers take time. jay grabbed and spun him at legit comicbook style superspeeds, and it happened so fast shift couldn't alter his form. if luke tried his own little tornado attack (something that has a ton of problems) i WOULD have time to react to it and alter my attack approach. THAT was my idea.

I showed literally every showing of Shift not reforming or being blown to bits. There isn't anything else to show. I don't have a secret ace up my sleeve. BUT...

- I'd remind you that I showed something like 8 different scans. It was not an isolated incident.
- I'm not sure where leo gets the idea that a character who gets tossed about and dispersed by all kinds of things is going to actively combat a TK maelstrom. Where is all of his showings does he display the ability to resist such force? Answer: he doesn't.

Originally posted by leonidas
not really. once i throw a rock it is no longer in my control. that is all luke did--gathered his energy and hurled them. least that is how i read that. if you have proof otherwise feel free to share.

I thought this was rather obvious, but maybe not:

I'm not just throwing Shift in a single direction. I'm breaking him up into pieces (gas or solid) and separating him by MILES. He's never displayed any kind of ability to reform from that.

Originally posted by leonidas
from one of the novels: "Fear, anger, aggression: the dark side they are. Yoda had taught him that his methods were as critical as his motives. If he used dark power, even in self-defense, the cost of his soul might be disastrous. He relaxed into the Force. Clinging to control for the sake of his soul and his sanity, he amplified the pitiful will."

like i said, i think things are different for luke. going cis-less could actually CHANGE luke, make him different. now i'm not saying luke won't try and kill me--jedi's DO kill. i just think the MANNER of his attack may still need to be considered. obviously digi disagrees and i'm happy to let you judges come to your own conclusions.

So what are you trying to argue? That what I have Luke do wouldn't happen? That he'd say "no Digi, I'm a Jedi, we should hit him with half-powered attacks first and try to reason with him."

This is stupid. It's been a good match, everything else has been legit hard-fought debate, but this is just dumb. No tourney has ever worked like this. It's not something the judges need to decide on. CIS is off, period. We make the plans using our characters' powers. They believe it or not based on feats, logic, and debate, but not based on the character's personality.

Digi

Digi
Digi Post #8

Here's what I see as the fundamental disconnect in leo's plan. He's, what, lurking and waiting. I've shown senses that put anything and anyone to shame - Luke could sense footprints and environmental life miles away - yet leo wants you to think I won't find a poisonous gas cloud on a deserted planet.

I have pre-cog. Unless Shift has a power to turn that off (I'm quite sure he doesn't), I get some kind of warning for everything in this fight. An ambush, a tp bomb, anything. Ignoring it is like ignoring the two times ever that a writer failed to make Pete's spider-sense work. That wouldn't even be considered in a tourney match, nor should it here.

Shift doesn't hold himself together super well. We know this. Even when he reforms quickly, he first gets dispersed. So, like, I probably don't even need the Force Tornado. Those casual palm-strike tk blasts I posted would suffice.

Then there's the tornado feat. Go read it again please if you only read it once. How in the world does that not just end his sh*t? He takes individual pieces and rips them to shreds, all while crushing a home, a starfighter, and whirling them together. Leo talked a lot about build-up time, but not only does it not really take that long, there's no indicator of time in the feat and it actually appears as though the house was crushed in one sudden swoop of Force power. And it represents a much larger output of energy than is needed to wreck Shift. I split him in 2, 3, 4 parts, stir well in an unholy maelstrom, then throw them miles away from one another. Auto-win via indefinite dispersal.

I think we can say fairly certainly that telepathy could be used as an attack. Or that a lightsaber, the end-all energy melee weapon in fiction-dom, would **** him up if he chose to confront it.

My reactions are superhuman, I'm doing three things before he does one, and probably three things at once.

I don't think he's displayed enough power to get through my shielding. I don't think he's displayed evidence that he could stop any sort of energy, melee, or TK attack. Hell, even if the tornado takes time to work up (it doesn't), how is he stopping it? What does he do that could possibly stop me as I swirl him into a mess?

Like this:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3388/67362167.jpg
...which I've learned through comparison is more than just a dozen tons or so (similarly sized rocks are hundreds of tons). That's me grabbing part of his gas cloud and throwing it across the landscape into incoherence. Casually.

He's powerless, up against a stronger force (pun intended).

...

I genuinely believe Luke can just wander in like a badass and raw Force-power his way to victory. Shift is outmatched. But I don't take chances. That's why I'm utilizing my speed, senses, pre-cog, and all methods of attack. It's why I've shown how to defend against Shift, and why my attacks are more powerful and varied. And that's why I win.

Believe!
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5527/lukeskywalkeru.jpg

Galan007
Okay, this was an odd battle to judge, mainly because quotes from novelizations were used (next time it would be nice if quotes from novels were sourced.) Anyway, my vote will be short, sweet, and to the point.

I thought leo did an excellent job contending with Digi's insanely obscure pick. After all was said and done, I do not believe Luke has the chops to harm Shift's physical being for any lasting amount of time--conversely, I believe that Shift is more than capable of killing Luke quite swiftly. However, there is one important element Luke brings to the table that Shift doesn't seem to have much of a defense against: psi-related powers (namely telepathy and pre-cog.) With Luke's pre-cog, he will know every move Shift is going to make, before he makes it. If Shift is in his gaseous form, Luke's 'life detection' will come into play. These abilities would enable Luke to avoid an attack via TK shielding, and/or his lightning speed. With Luke's telepathy, he has a very good chance at invading Shift's mind, and shutting it down all together. Even if Luke didn't know about the bio-feedback bomb implanted in Shift's mind before said TP attack, his pre-cog would give him the split-second he needed to defend himself from the bombs effects before being stunned by it.

Because of those variables, my vote goes to Digi.

Both contestants did an excellent job. Well done. thumb up

Charlotte DeBel
Thank you for the entertaining match, gentlemen. I'd say I had no clear idea of the winner until late in the match... so here's what I have to say.

1. I didn't buy leo's bio-feedback bomb tactic, cause that was specific tactic for a specific kind of a telepath who essentially touched the specific parts of the brain. In gaseous form this tactic was next to irrelevant to me - it involves brain being shifted, not mind. "Feat from another character" argument basically sealed the deal.
2. However there's another thing to consider. In SW EU Jedi CAN affect the minds of inorganic creatures but it surely involves lots of concentration and is slower than with normal beings (they don't give such creatures as Shards psi-resistance bonuses in their RPGs for nothing).
3. Force Tornado. From the description it does not seem like actual tornado (aka stream of wind) but like a ton of debris hurled around (debris being macroscopic objects). However, gas molecules are micro objects, there were no substantial feats of molecular TK shown so hurling around chunks of metal is irrelevant to me.
4. Gas cooling/filtering. Now, that is a substantial feat. BUT not without its drawbacks. If the air Luke inhales is indistinguishable from any normal air...
-------------------------
In short - Digi showed that Luke has ways to deal with Shift. However I do not believe that Luke's precog is specific enough to prevent him from inhaling seemingly normal air turning into acid when already in lungs, so even with feedback bombs being the BS of the year in my book...

I have to go with Leo. But this was very close match, thank you again for entertainment.

Cogito
Bleh, I already almost finished my explanation and I lost it. So here's a briefer version.

Both leo and Digi I felt did an excellent job using and countering obscure characters. So kudos to both. I felt the judging could have gone either way, but my decision was based on the following factors:

1) TP
I did not feel TP was a valid weapon for Luke. I felt leo successfully argued that force enabled TP did not work on sufficiently non-human brain structures (e.g. Hutts), and leo made it pretty clear that he was not going to be in a corporeal form during this matchup.

2) TK
Digi convinced me that TK could be effective against Shift. I also believe Luke's shields could keep Shift out, but the example used involved Luke taking a deep breath prior, which could pose a problem.

3) Illusions
If illusions worked on droids, I see no reason why they wouldn't work on Shift

4) Life sensing
I believe Luke could generally sense Shifts presence, but I'm unconvinced that he would be able to pin down all of Shift's molecules around him in a particularly helpful way.

5) Precog
Luke would be able to sense imminent danger, but would not necessarily be able to determine the exact form. leo successfully showed numerous ways for Shift to harm Luke

6) "TP Bomb"
I was not convinced this tactic would work on Luke.

There were some other points I won't bother mentioning. I feel both of you presented strong arguments proving that either could hurt the other enough to win, and that both could put up successful defenses. What I felt this match came down to was knowledge. Per the established rules...
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
3. Characters will not have knowledge of who they are fighting pre-fight. In battle, they will only be able to know things if the two characters already knew each other.

Without any prior knowledge, I felt Shift had a huge advantage, and would surely be the winner (I don't feel Luke would expect air to be able to hurt him before it would be too late). However from the opening strategy posts both leo and Digi kind of ignored this rule and argued based entirely on having prior knowledge. Now, there was an established prep time rule to learn about the opponent,
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
13*. ( Prep) You will receive a 5 minute briefing about your opponent. You cannot gather gear that would not be considered standard gear.

*Both Leo and Digi have opted not to use the prep time.
but both denied it. Now, I have no idea what to do about the rules, because I feel this one is particularly important to the outcome.

So what I've ultimately decided is to pretend this rule doesn't exist in my judgement, because that's consistent with how I feel the contestants argued. For that reason, my vote goes to Digi, as I believe (with knowledge) he could adequately defend himself long enough to use his TK/Lightsaber to disperse Shift for the forum win.

That said, I feel this is a 6/10 match swinging either way and was certainly not convincing either way.

leonidas
i don't think i have ever questioned a judge's decision directly, but i'm not sure i understand cogito's vote. this part in particular confused me:



how did i argue using prior knowledge? confused

for that matter, how did digi? in fact, i actually submitted my opening BEFORE i even knew he had luke. (and digi did the same i think). i simply tried to come up with a generic opening that i thought would cover as many types of opponents as i could. again, digi did the same. i do agree with you--the lack of prior knowledge was an advantage for me, i said as much repeatedly in the match. i also don't understand why you felt it necessary to pretend a rule didn't exist. we willingly waived prep, AND thereby waived off any opportunity to gain prior knowledge of each other. i turned to gas as i thought that would be my best defense. digi threw up shields and used senses for the same reasons. no prior knowledge needed or demonstrated for that......

your vote will stay the same regardless, (what's layed is played!) i just really didn't understand what you were trying to say here is all.....

JakeTheBank
I'll be getting in my vote soon; Chicago Comic Con is crazy shit.

I will say that neither Leo nor Digi used prior knowledge in either of their OPs, both of which were PMed to me before they knew who was playing who.

JakeTheBank
This bout was weird and a headache to sift through, but in a good way. Upon getting both picks from Digi and Leo, I knew that this was going to be a strange match-up. Visually, if this were to happen in the pages of a comic book or in some form of film, this would be a battle to behold. Definitely a very imaginative bout to say the least.

I felt that the various Force powers - which are leagues above the stuff we see from Lucas' films - that Luke brings to the table give him great odds. Telepathy, offensive telekinises, enhanced physical attributes...the guy has a lot to work with against most humanoid foes. Problem with that is that Shift isn't all that human. Leo made great points concerning his TP defense and about how should he constantly change his structure, he could handle wading through most of Skywalker's attacks.

Ultimately, I feel that Luke is significantly more powerful than Shift, but due to how their powersets clash with one another, that fact in of itself doesn't mean much in the long run, which is why these tournaments are so interesting. I can see Luke prevailing against Shift but I can't see him doing it reliably especially in a "random encounter" so to speak. For that reason, I have to vote for Leo. Great match as I expected it would be, gents. Definitely walking away with a huge new level of respect and awe for the greatest Jedi Master ever, though. thumb up

Blair Wind
I'll have a vote in by the end of the day. Sorry to the two contestants who saw me post and thought I had a vote in - just got back from a trip to Miami for a friends wedding and I haven't slept in the past 23 hours.

edit: and dammit. Now my vote is all special as a tie-breaker. I'll make sure to read it for a 3rd time just to be sure I pick the right winner. You can send any digital bribes via PM to help ensure that I do.

Blair Wind
You're both cheap. Digi, your netflix login info ? Leo, $10 on Amazon? My vote is obviously more important than that so I won't take any of your lame bribes into account.

Also, screw you both for making this such a hard match. I know a lot of people say they go back and forth a bunch, but I've been sitting here re-writing the last three paragraphs for the past 2 hours. Some versions have Digi winning, some have Leo winning.
-----------------------------------------------

I don't believe telepathy will be a factor here. I don't believe that Luke will be able to find Shift specifically (but that he will sense the life force), nor do I believe that Shift's TP bombs will work in the form he has chosen. Neither do I believe illusions will be effective as Shift will be in a gaseous in-organic state. Luke might be powerful and he might be able to fool just about anyone else - but when a mind has no real state to it, I just can't see how he'd be able to focus the illusion on anything. And as Leo stated, he can see molecular structures. If illusions work, he can still see what is real from what is not.

Most of Luke's physical attacks won't really be consequential because Shift is already in a gaseous state. I don't believe the lightsaber will be of any great use.

So what does this match then rest on? Pre-Cog, Force Awareness, and TK Force pushes.

For most of the match, I had Leo winning. In a random encounter, I think that while Luke is more powerful but he wouldn't be expecting an airborne opponent. Luke has all these abilities, is much more powerful, and incredibly versatile, but it's a tactical situation - the one opponent that, while less powerful, could defeat Luke.

However, Digi posted more pre-cog evidence and the TK Force Tornado was brought up. It was only useful if he could actually utilize it though - and if he could properly distinguish what his pre-cog was telling him. Then I realized that he started Luke with shields up and that it might give him the moment he needs to use his other abilities. And that was probably the toughest part for me.

Do I believe that Shift can pass through the shield as air? Or do I believe that the shield blocks everything and leaves a pocket of air inside? No one gave me a sufficient answer, so I went looking into what exactly force barriers can do. Surprisingly, I didn't find my answer under Force Barrier (although they did have a showing of people pushing gas away with a barrier). I found it under Breath Control - which is what Digi was showing us that Luke could do earlier (in addition, Jedi can survive in that state for hours to days).

"This ability used independently, however, would not prevent anything entering or leaving the respiratory system of the user. In some cases, the user would require some kind of Force barrier in, or around the nose/throat region to keep poisonous gases or water out. The necessity of such a barrier would depend on the air/water pressure in the direct vicinity, and the user's ability to naturally seal their airways. This was a very effective ability in situations where the air was very thin, underwater, or in any environment with toxic fumes."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Breath_Control

I didn't care about the application itself, I cared about the ability of a force shield to block out air - and it can. Therefore I assume that Shift cannot get through the initial shield - and that was the deciding factor for me. If Shift had been able to, it would have been game over. The surprise attack was with him. With the shield up and Shift not being able to get in, I think Luke's awareness would be sufficient to tell him to Force Push the life form he is sensing around him. And while Shift is good at control of his form, going from gas to being pushed away, I don't see him reforming himself fast enough to be in the fight. In my mind, him being dispersed as a gas would be harder for him to reform from than him being dispersed as a solid - most of his matter would have been in one space and he'd be pulling back on it. With the gas, it's already spread out - it would be easy to spread out more.

So, I'm voting Digi.

Leo, as a contestant I often hear people say it was a "tough" match to judge, but I hope you know I really mean the sentiment. I think you are a great debater and I'm sorry to have voted against you twice now. I don't mind saying I never like facing you because I think you are insanely smart and much more clever than I am. Hope to see you beat the snot out of your next opponent.

Digi
Well, congrats to me. Leo, you're a sunovabitch. I wandered in with an obscure powerhouse and you negated a good portion of what I can do just by being weird. Kudos. I knew I had more power, but really expected to lose when you had reduced my debating to "well sh*t...I'll push him the **** around I guess!"

It's always weird knowing your opponent really well. Leo and I were PM'ing during the match and talking way more candidly about our chances than we ever would in the match itself.

Now nobody challenge me for like 2 months. I need rest.

uhuh

...

Also, a thanks to the judges. Despite the oddness of the match, I hope it was enjoyable.

Uriel005
surprised Digi didn't pull up book feat in Vong War where Luke pulled a black hole to destroy the ship (The Vong used black holes to drive their ships).... but that seems to be a bit out of the meta range by a fair amount.... Also there was the time during the Vong War where he reached Nirvana and achieved universal creamy oneness with the force. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Oneness

also defeated Aboleth and her bodies with some assistance http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Abeloth

leonidas
ah well, nice job digi. i'll just have to start picking people i'm sure i can win with in the future, instead of people i just really want to use. still a cool match. nice job digi and thanks to the judges. thumb up

Cogito
Originally posted by leonidas
how did i argue using prior knowledge? confused
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I will say that neither Leo nor Digi used prior knowledge in either of their OPs, both of which were PMed to me before they knew who was playing who.
Forgive me, I probably should have clarified better.

I was referring primarily to the very beginning of leo's first post, not the opening. In it, he already assumed knowledge of Luke's life sensing and TP and crafted a strategy based on how Luke (w/ his powers) would react.

Mostly I felt that Digi proved he could sense danger well enough to prepare a defense against leo's initial attack, after which I felt Digi further proved Luke could sufficiently harm Shift to get the win.

Very good BZ though thumb up

Scoobless
Good match, agree with the judges decision.

Question: do future title defences require the use of the same champion character or just the same debator? If it's character does the challenger enter that match as an unknown with prior knowledge?





Stupid KMC. ... trying to suck me back in.

Digi
Originally posted by Scoobless
Good match, agree with the judges decision.

Question: do future title defences require the use of the same champion character or just the same debator? If it's character does the challenger enter that match as an unknown with prior knowledge?

Stupid KMC. ... trying to suck me back in.

Hahaha.

So far, it's been the same debater and character. But whoever faces the champion has to reveal their pick beforehand (as opposed to this match, where we both went in blind until the match was posted).

So there's a slight advantage to the challenger, because they get to draft already knowing who they're facing. But the champion still gets time to plan.

Scoobless
Yeah, big advantage, makes a successful defence more impressive though.

Blair Wind
Also, unless waived by the champion, we give them at least a month after they win to challenge them for the title they hold.

But seeing as Digi just gave up his most time consuming job power as a global mod, I think he has some free time, right? stick out tongue

Digi
Originally posted by Scoobless
Yeah, big advantage, makes a successful defence more impressive though.

There's no great way around it, unless you allow new draft picks for both, but then it sort of sullies the idea of a true "defense." It puts a premium on drafting those that can conceivably defend well against anyone. Smurph with God-Cable at mid herald is a good example. With any luck, Luke will be similar.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Also, unless waived by the champion, we give them at least a month after they win to challenge them for the title they hold.

But seeing as Digi just gave up his most time consuming job power as a global mod, I think he has some free time, right? stick out tongue

Yes, yes, I know you want a crack at Luke with Tony. Ya'll can wait.

leonidas
Originally posted by Scoobless
Good match, agree with the judges decision.

pfft. you would.

just come back already. i'll challenge you for low or mid meta. neither has seen action and, frankly, we really should go against each other one of the days...... sneer

Scoobless
Tempting.

But not yet, my computer is toast and typing posts by android phone takes way too long for a tourny match. Maybe after I shell out for some new tech though.

Endless Mike
If we allowed Skyfather tier matches I have a guy I could challenge someone with...

JakeTheBank
Great match and congrats are in order for both Digi and Leo. thumb up

Concerning Skyfather tier, I'm going to go ahead and say we're probably not going to go that far up in the tier list, at least not until we get the other belts claimed.

Endless Mike
Hmm... well could prep matches be allowed?

Cogito
Originally posted by Endless Mike
If we allowed Skyfather tier matches I have a guy I could challenge someone with...

Can't imagine who roll eyes (sarcastic)

Galan007
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Great match and congrats are in order for both Digi and Leo. thumb up

Concerning Skyfather tier, I'm going to go ahead and say we're probably not going to go that far up in the tier list, at least not until we get the other belts claimed. Agreed.

When you get above the herald tier, character feats start to get more metaphysical/abstract. I'd want no part in judging something like that, tbh.

Digi
There are reasons we never even considered going Skyfather+ in the old tiers thread, and also similar reasons why Trans. was the highest-level tourney ever.

I don't think we could get enough of a consensus to do something like that. Trans, maybe. If this format stays alive and we fill most of the belts, I'd say it's even likely. Beyond that, though...doubtful.

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