Sasuke (current) vs. Goku (at any stage)

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dvampire
I think Sasuke would win because of his eyes.

AuraAngel
I think Goku would win because he would.

KingD19
Goku from Kaio-Ken level and up beats Sasuke to death before he realizes he's dead.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
I think Sasuke would win because of his eyes. Wow, you must really hate DBZ huh?

Not that Goku would lose, he would easily crush Sasuke or any Naruto character, only that you are so incredibly biased against DBZ that you actually seem to believe that ****ing Sasuke would beat Goku.

Wtf.

Q99
Originally posted by KingD19
Goku from Kaio-Ken level and up beats Sasuke to death before he realizes he's dead.

I think Goku doesn't need to be that late in the game to do that.



----

Now, early DB kid Goku might be doable.

BloodRain
Pre-skip Sasuke > Pre-Roshi Goku
He can blitz, chidori should be fatal.

Current Sasuke > Pre-Tao Goku
Before Tao's Ma14 speed. Susanoo should make them physically equal, Sasuke winning for the extras he brings to the table.

Sasuke managing to pull off Kirin > Piccolo Daimo saga Goku
The furthest he could possibly go if he fights smart, makes good use of his eyes and ultimately uses Kirin. Not sure where abouts the Sharingan will become ineffective though..

dvampire
The point I'm trying to make is Sasuke wins because Goku can't escape gengestu. It doesn't matter how strong Goku is, in front of Sasuke, his eyes is his weakness. What's the frist thing you do when you fight? You look at your opponent and that's the only way you can begin a fight assuming this fight is made to be fair.

KingD19
Goku moves so fast, Sasuke would be done before he could initiate a genjutsu.

But how do you know for sure? Maybe Genjutsu don't work on Saiyans? And does Sasuke use his genjutsu to start off most battles? Or does he try to win with taijutsu and special moves because he's a cocky little sh*t who thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and is still emo about his family getting killed.

Goku's entire race got destroyed and you don't hear him b*tchin and moanin about it.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
The point I'm trying to make is Sasuke wins because Goku can't escape gengestu. It doesn't matter how strong Goku is, in front of Sasuke, his eyes is his weakness. What's the frist thing you do when you fight? You look at your opponent and that's the only way you can begin a fight assuming this fight is made to be fair.

Genjutsu does not stop a fighter from doing anything. Danzo for example could still activate his sealing jutsu while under a genjutsu. Naruto could still do a Rasengan while under one as well. Goku's AoE is simply too big for it to matter. Never mind that he is much faster than Sasuke and on the norm, Sasuke doesn't use genjutsu like Itachi. If you wanted the fight to go that way, it would have been best to use Itachi instead(Goku would beat him too but in character Itachi is more likely to do what you suggest).

Originally posted by KingD19
Goku moves so fast, Sasuke would be done before he could initiate a genjutsu.

But how do you know for sure? Maybe Genjutsu don't work on Saiyans? And does Sasuke use his genjutsu to start off most battles? Or does he try to win with taijutsu and special moves because he's a cocky little sh*t who thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and is still emo about his family getting killed.

Goku's entire race got destroyed and you don't hear him b*tchin and moanin about it.

Sasuke loses but random rant is random. Goku doesn't care about the whole Sayain thing because well he didn't even know he was one for so long of his life. Vegeta knew about it(and did indeed complain about it but that's neither here nor there).

KingD19
Lol I know. I just really don't like Sasuke. Haven't liked him since the 1st episode. Now TK from Angel Beat...that's a guy I can get behind.

dvampire
It doesn't matter if Goku is stronger, faster, or even cooler; He lost have one important ability to help him to win, his eye sight. If he looks at Sasuke he's done, he'll be under complete hypnosis subject to Sasuske's control. Sasuske is made to win this fight, because no physical exertion is need to beat his opponent. Sasuke will probably test to see if Goku has a counter to his attack, if he doesn't, the fight is clearly over.

AuraAngel
You are aware that Goku is in essence the equivalent to a chakra sensor right? Genjutsu might have an effect but it wouldn't last long enough to matter. Goku can fight blind.

However, even supposing Sasuke manages to get off a genjutsu and it leaves Goku trapped and unable to do anything, then Goku will simply be broken out of it when Sasuke attacks him. Pain breaks genjutsu and there is not a technique in Sasuke's arsenal capable of killing Goku before he can counter attack with a much stronger technique(i.e, his fist).

KingD19
Originally posted by AuraAngel
You are aware that Goku is in essence the equivalent to a chakra sensor right? Genjutsu might have an effect but it wouldn't last long enough to matter. Goku can fight blind.

However, even supposing Sasuke manages to get off a genjutsu and it leaves Goku trapped and unable to do anything, then Goku will simply be broken out of it when Sasuke attacks him. Pain breaks genjutsu and there is not a technique in Sasuke's arsenal capable of killing Goku before he can counter attack with a much stronger technique(i.e, his fist).

Does Sasuke have any attacks that can actually cause Goku pain? roll eyes (sarcastic)

AuraAngel
Yes.

dvampire
It doesn't matter if he sense chakra or not, his ability is to hypnotize you, which Goku have no way of breaking free of, unless we actually take gengutsu away from Sasuke (basically cheating in my eyes).

KingD19
But you're trying to portray Sasuke in a light he's not under. He doesn't fight that way. 9/10 the Eye Attack he's used most are Ameterasu and Susanoo. He rarely if ever uses Genjutsu or even Tsukiomi. A large percentage of his fights have been won and lost with no genjutsu involved in any way.

AuraAngel
Sasuke has used his eyes to get people to tell him things and...well that's about it. Going so far as to say he'll have complete control over Goku is silly. At the very best, he'll manage to paralyze him. And remember, genjutsu can be stopped with pain.

Q99
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Sasuke has used his eyes to get people to tell him things and...well that's about it.

Don't forget illusions for the purpose of getting the drop on people- making Deidara think he's dead and such.

AuraAngel
I meant as far as actual manipulative hypnotism went. Sasuke can make him see things, get him to say things, and as far as I know momentarily paralyze a person. Tsukuyomi allows for him to hurt them too I suppose.

Bullmonkťy
Goku would win even if sasuke casts genjutsu on him.

dvampire
Originally posted by KingD19
But you're trying to portray Sasuke in a light he's not under. He doesn't fight that way. 9/10 the Eye Attack he's used most are Ameterasu and Susanoo. He rarely if ever uses Genjutsu or even Tsukiomi. A large percentage of his fights have been won and lost with no genjutsu involved in any way.

Genjutsu is one of the most baisc attacks from Sasuke. Look at Sasuke's personality, he thinks he's superior to everyone, so one of his most basic attacks he'll use is genjutsu, because to him it's now a simple attack for any experinced ninja to face against, if you can't beat a genjutsu, then you're not worthy of being a match for Sasuke. He will never use Ameterasu or Susanoo in a match knowing he has a weaker attack to use against them. If you read or watch Naruto, then you should know that Sasuke always use genjutsu before any of his stronger attacks. You're actaully taking away one of his most over used abilities in exchange for his stronger attacks in oder for Goku to win.

NemeBro
Goku can move and fight faster than Sasuke can think.

Shut up.

dvampire
They are not in the process of fighting until they look at each other. Which means Sasuke has the superior advantage. He'll win the fight knowing that Goku has inferior abilities under hypnosis.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
Genjutsu is one of the most baisc attacks from Sasuke. Look at Sasuke's personality, he thinks he's superior to everyone, so one of his most basic attacks he'll use is genjutsu, because to him it's now a simple attack for any experinced ninja to face against, if you can't beat a genjutsu, then you're not worthy of being a match for Sasuke. He will never use Ameterasu or Susanoo in a match knowing he has a weaker attack to use against them. If you read or watch Naruto, then you should know that Sasuke always use genjutsu before any of his stronger attacks. You're actaully taking away one of his most over used abilities in exchange for his stronger attacks in oder for Goku to win.

Yeah no. Point to an instance of Sasuke doing this.

KingD19
Don't they have basic knowledge of each others powers and capabilities? Unless they don't, Goku has this as soon as the match starts.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
They are not in the process of fighting until they look at each other. Which means Sasuke has the superior advantage. He'll win the fight knowing that Goku has inferior abilities under hypnosis. Goku's very thought-processes operate at a level that Sasuke's can't begin to match.

Goku, before Sasuke can even process the thought to use a Genjutsu or even so much as look at Goku, or I don't know, activate his Sharingan because it isn't activated by default, can clear the distance and remove Sasuke's head from his shoulders.

dvampire
You can't begin a battle without looking at your opponent first. It's impossible to think without looking at your opponent first. He'll be caught in the genjutsu first, then he'll begin trying to move faster than Sasuke, because he won't move unless he feels threaten. That's just one option that could easily lead to another option as well, a shadow clone. Either way, I don't see Sasuke beginning the fight without setting Goku up for a genjustu.

AuraAngel
What you don't see is contradicting to how Sasuke has been fighting the entire time.

Sasuke vs Team 7: Straight up stomps them with tai and ninjutsu.
Sasuke vs Orochimaru: Beats him in taijutsu, only using genjutsu as a last minute tactic.
Sasuke vs Deidara: Sasuke fights him mostly with taijutsu and ninjutsu before using genjutsu to try and create an opening.
Sasuke vs Itachi: Itachi was in control of the entire fight. It's very likely he initiated the genjutsu battle.
Sasuke vs Bee: Uses genjutsu last.
Sasuke vs Kage: Doesn't try genjutsu on any of them, save for one random lackey.
Sasuke vs Danzo: Uses Susano'o and Amaterasu before Tsukuyomi.
Sasuke vs Kabuto: Well he really couldn't use Genjutsu here so whatever.

Sasuke has never shown that he considers beating genjutsu to be a sign of worth. Quite the opposite, if the opponent defeats his taijutsu and ninjutsu, he'll try and use genjutsu to create an opening. It is literally a support ability more than anything else.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
You can't begin a battle without looking at your opponent first. It's impossible to think without looking at your opponent first. He'll be caught in the genjutsu first, then he'll begin trying to move faster than Sasuke, because he won't move unless he feels threaten. That's just one option that could easily lead to another option as well, a shadow clone. Either way, I don't see Sasuke beginning the fight without setting Goku up for a genjustu. Lol, get a load of this guy.

You assume that Sasuke's Sharingan is on by default. This is not the case.

You assume that Sasuke can use Genjutsu without having to think to do it. This is not the case.

You assume that Sasuke can activate Sharingan, look at Goku, and then use a Genjutsu on Goku, before Goku can punch him. This is not the case.

Get the **** out of here. Goku stomps this fight by punching Sasuke, and you're deluded if you believe otherwise.

The moment the fight begins, before Sasuke can process the thought to use a Genjutsu, Goku has taken his head off of his shoulders.

Edit: Shit, even discounting all of that, Vegeta, whose will is all but definitely less than Goku's, was able to resist Babidi's mind control, taking the power it brought without being Babidi's slave. Sasuke has nothing.

Bentley
Sasuke can beat the every Saint Seiya character because they have to stare at each other to be fighting.

dvampire
Sausuke always begin the battle with Sharingan active, he'll most likely use his eye's before Goku begin to attack because this is how they both examine each other fighting ability. This is just my assumtion if you were to keep things equal, separate from the both of them having any knowlege about each other's abilites. Sasuke would most likely win because you have to see your opponent, which is what Goku will have to do in order to engage in combat with him. And Sasuke is use to fighting enemies with long range attack's, so he'll most likely use a genjutsu, if Goku understands the counter to his eye technique, then he'll move on to to another attack. Take a look at Sasuke's fight's, since he learned genjutsu, his opponenet was already prepared to counter his eye technique's, that's why it wasn't a problem for them. Goku doesn't have that benefit of knowing about Sasuke's genjutsu so he'll most likely get caught.

Remeber Itachi's fight with Deidara, he was completely dominated by one of Itachi's most basic moves because he had know knowledge of what he was facing. What do you think Goku is going to do when he see's Sasuke's eye's change, nothing, because it means he's probably already under hypnosis. Remeber the fight with B. and Madara, he couldn't believe he got caught in one of the most basic eye technique's and it happened instantly, this just prove that character's with knowledge of the eye technique are still inferior to an someone like Sasuke. Sasuke wins this from a distance, it's just impossible for a Sharingan user to begin combat without using a genjutsu IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M2bP9lHNaA

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
Sasuke wins this from a distance, it's just impossible for a Sharingan user to begin combat without using a genjutsu IMO.

Well your opinion means nothing compared to the manga that says otherwise. Sasuke, Kakashi, Tobi, and Madara all fight without starting with a genjutsu. Itachi is the only Uchiha that uses it like that and even then, he can start a fight without using genjustu.

Look, I get it. For debators it's hard to think in terms of character rather than the easiest possible route to victory. I don't believe Goku would literally punch Sasuke's head off. Goku isn't that vicious. He'll knock him out, on accident probably, but not kill him. He can tell that Sasuke is no match for him.

dvampire
You just ignored that Sasuke could hypnotize him again, since Goku again have to look at his oppnent to hit him. And Sasuke alway's begin a fight with Sharingan activated.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
You just ignored that Sasuke could hypnotize him again, since Goku again have to look at his oppnent to hit him. And Sasuke alway's begin a fight with Sharingan activated.

Dude, Sasuke doesn't fight that way. He just doesn't. If you wanted the fight to hypothetically go that way, you should have made it Itachi instead. Hell, he's stronger anyway. As it stands, Sasuke will probably start the fight by opening Susano'o or trying to attack Goku with his sword.

dvampire
Sasuke can actually take a hit and if serious, he'll use the genjutsu first. It goes against logical reasoning to think that Goku stands a fair chance of beating Sasuke without being hypnotize.

Sasuke vs. Raikage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkNPnz4EPYg&feature=related

AuraAngel
Sasuke didn't hypnotize the Raikage and Goku is far above A in both speed and strength. And he has never used genjutsu first thing in a battle(outside the battle Itachi started). If you can prove me wrong, then do it and I'll consider the possibility of Sasuke catching Goku in a genjutsu off the bat(Goku would win either way though so not like it matters).

dvampire
Raigkage knows how to counter genjutsu, Goku doesn't, so he'll be under hypnosis as soon as the fight begins. Speed or stregnth is not an issue because Sasuke won't be fighting with Goku since the match will be over once he's under hypnosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqhrDhhbkC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=u-xQYikKIU4&NR=1

There's no way for Goku to win. Remeber Sasuke vs Itachi, they used Genjutsu many times.

Bentley
Dude, you just proved Sasuke doesn't start his battles with Genjutsu so he loses.

dvampire
Sauske vs. Itachi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-JPV9wru8

How do you know if you are under hypnosis against a person you have know knowledge about one's own abilities.

Zack Fair
Goku destroys Sasuke.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
Raigkage knows how to counter genjutsu, Goku doesn't, so he'll be under hypnosis as soon as the fight begins. Speed or stregnth is not an issue because Sasuke won't be fighting with Goku since the match will be over once he's under hypnosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqhrDhhbkC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=u-xQYikKIU4&NR=1

There's no way for Goku to win. Remeber Sasuke vs Itachi, they used Genjutsu many times.

He didn't use genjutsu and I asked for a non-Itachi example. Keep in mind, Itachi was in control of the entire fight. I'd guarantee he used Genjutsu fight. And looking back, it was probably the moment "Itachi" appeared behind Sasuke.

dvampire
Which means you're limiting Sasuke in favor of Goku to win the fight. That's clear evidence right in front of you that Sasuke used genjutsu, which means you're only interested in cheating for Goku to win. Itachi was in control, but Sasuke was in control of his own abilities, which is superior to Goku (his eyes).

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
Which means you're limiting Sasuke in favor of Goku to win the fight. That's clear evidence right in front of you that Sasuke used genjutsu, which means you're only interested in cheating for Goku to win. Itachi was in control, but Sasuke was in control of his own abilities, which is superior to Goku (his eyes).

no expression

Wow I really wonder what a DBZ fan ever did to you. And tell me: Sasuke was in control of his own abilities but what options do you have when the opponent is using genjutsu? Why, you fight with genjutsu. It's amazing to me how you've taken one instance of Sasuke starting a fight with genjutsu to somehow fabricate this notion that he considers genjutsu something basic and whoever can't beat it isn't worth his time.

And again, if you wanted the fight to go the way Itachi would make it go, then you should have made it Itachi instead.

As it stands, Goku will punch him through a mountain because he did it that one time and it was so ****ing cool and his abilities are superior to Sasuke's(his everything).

dvampire
If you can give a logical reason for Goku to win against genjutsu then I'll support Goku in beating Sasuke. But you can't, so I'll stay with Sasuke.

AuraAngel
Goku is faster than Sasuke so he'll punch his head off before he can react. There's your stupid reason. And Goku won't look at Sasuke's eyes because one time he didn't and **** it if I'm not going to ignore any other moment.

BloodRain
"Shit, even discounting all of that, Vegeta, whose will is all but definitely less than Goku's, was able to resist Babidi's mind control, taking the power it brought without being Babidi's slave. Sasuke has nothing."

:T



That, and the best he can do is temporarily hold him in an illusion, because he's certainly not knocking him out with it. So what, Goku stays in an illusion until A) Sasuke attacks him and it breaks the jutsu, B) It runs out or C) Goku eventually breaks it. TBH, he has all the time in the world to get out of it~

Nephthys
Originally posted by dvampire
If you can give a logical reason for Goku to win against genjutsu then I'll support Goku in beating Sasuke. But you can't, so I'll stay with Sasuke.

Eventually Sasuke will run out of chakra and be unable to continue the genjutsu.

Goku will never run out of being too durable for Sasuke to hurt.

dvampire
Once Goku is in the genjutsu, Sasuke is free to do what ever he wants. You have proof that Sasuke can't hurt Goku? Because first Goku has to know he's caught in a genjustu before any attempt at fighting. Sasuke hurting Goku isn't an issue, he has several moves that could kill him.

BloodRain
Kirin, Sasuke's strongest attack that he can only use in the right circumstances, is Town level in destruction. Goku before DBZ has Island level durability. Goku at the start of DBZ can literally shrug of Kirin. Sasuke has /no/ attacks that can hurt Goku.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
Sausuke always begin the battle with Sharingan active, he'll most likely use his eye's before Goku begin to attack because this is how they both examine each other fighting ability. This is just my assumtion if you were to keep things equal, separate from the both of them having any knowlege about each other's abilites. Sasuke would most likely win because you have to see your opponent, which is what Goku will have to do in order to engage in combat with him. And Sasuke is use to fighting enemies with long range attack's, so he'll most likely use a genjutsu, if Goku understands the counter to his eye technique, then he'll move on to to another attack. Take a look at Sasuke's fight's, since he learned genjutsu, his opponenet was already prepared to counter his eye technique's, that's why it wasn't a problem for them. Goku doesn't have that benefit of knowing about Sasuke's genjutsu so he'll most likely get caught.

Remeber Itachi's fight with Deidara, he was completely dominated by one of Itachi's most basic moves because he had know knowledge of what he was facing. What do you think Goku is going to do when he see's Sasuke's eye's change, nothing, because it means he's probably already under hypnosis. Remeber the fight with B. and Madara, he couldn't believe he got caught in one of the most basic eye technique's and it happened instantly, this just prove that character's with knowledge of the eye technique are still inferior to an someone like Sasuke. Sasuke wins this from a distance, it's just impossible for a Sharingan user to begin combat without using a genjutsu IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M2bP9lHNaA I like how you conveniently ignored me bringing up DBZ douches being immune to mind control, from a character who can easily sway the minds of multiple powerful warriors at once.

And please do tell us what attack Sasuke has that can kill Goku.

AuraAngel
Genjutsu. Sasuke will solo Dragon Ball with genjutsu.

Bentley
This is silly, the one person who argues about Sasuke winning is actually doing a "Speed vs Genjutsu" thread, ignoring willingly that Sasuke uses Genjutsu maybe 1/10 from the get to go.

He should say "Yeah, I fully accept Sasuke dies the rest of the time" just to even it out.

dvampire
Originally posted by NemeBro
I like how you conveniently ignored me bringing up DBZ douches being immune to mind control, from a character who can easily sway the minds of multiple powerful warriors at once.

And please do tell us what attack Sasuke has that can kill Goku.

Genjutsu is not the same as Babade's power's, it is meant to fool the eye trapping you under the creator's control. Babade's power level was weaker than Vegeta's and has no realation to a genjutsu since chakra is different from ki. And there's several variations of chakra that is different from ki, which is only in the form of life energy. Genjutsu is the attack that will finish Goku.

dvampire
Originally posted by BloodRain
Kirin, Sasuke's strongest attack that he can only use in the right circumstances, is Town level in destruction. Goku before DBZ has Island level durability. Goku at the start of DBZ can literally shrug of Kirin. Sasuke has /no/ attacks that can hurt Goku.

Town level attacks are not necessary to win the fight, since Goku himself is beaten by physical attacks and ki blasts that are not meant to destroy a town, but to kill him (excluding chakra separate from ki). Ever notice how one character's strength in neglected because of his powerlevel being inferior to the other. How strong do you think the Naruto character's is?

Freeza vs. Nail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWxP59dvFg4

BloodRain
Yes, beaten after a whole fights worth of several dozen physical attacks around Town level and a couple blasts far, far above that. AKA still tanking a single Kirin no sweat. You know who had Town level blasts in DB? The first Piccolo. You know that any DBZ character can effortlessly stomp the first Piccolo and his town level attacks?


And thats only if Sasuke can manage to set it up. Without that all he has is Building level attacks in the form of Chidori and his fire techs, or large building with Amaterasu and Susanoo. Kid Goku traded blows the first Piccolo when they both had large building physical strength and town level blasts.

A single punch from Kid Goku = Susanoo.
A single blast from Kid Goku = Kirin.


Yeah, Sasuke has nothing.

dvampire
How come Goku struggle with ten tons? Isn't that a limit to physical power? That's not town level stregnth, since Goku has never shown physical strength on that level. I can prove that Naruto character's are physically stronger. Can you show Goku being physically more powerful than a Naruto character? And Goku still gets caught in a genjutsu and you're not proving anything by comparing energy blasts to physical power or chakra to ki (because they are not the same).

Classic NES
^ Goku survived 100 times earth's gravity. That means his weight was multiplied by a factor of 100.

dvampire
Then in the after life he struggled with 10 tons, until he went ssj. I can find many feats in Naruto that puts them above DBZ in strength, because 10 tons isn't enough in there universe. Sasuke is limited to only his defense abilities that strengthens his offensive abilities, since he himself isn't the strongest.

Bentley
Maybe it was 10 tons in a magnified gravity or something. I suppose Planet Busting <<<< failing to carry 10 tons.

BloodRain
Originally posted by dvampire
How come Goku struggle with ten tons? Isn't that a limit to physical power? That's not town level stregnth, since Goku has never shown physical strength on that level. I can prove that Naruto character's are physically stronger. Can you show Goku being physically more powerful than a Naruto character? And Goku still gets caught in a genjutsu and you're not proving anything by comparing energy blasts to physical power or chakra to ki (because they are not the same).

A) Low-end outline feat that is generally ignored.

B) Lifting strength =/= striking strength.

C) This is the striking strength of Gotenks. This physical strength >> Kirin.


Babidi > Sasuke for one, unless you can prove that beating them takes different levels of skill.

"That, and the best he can do is temporarily hold him in an illusion, because he's certainly not knocking him out with it. So what, Goku stays in an illusion until A) Sasuke attacks him and it breaks the jutsu, B) It runs out or C) Goku eventually breaks it. TBH, he has all the time in the world to get out of it~"

Classic NES
Originally posted by dvampire
Then in the after life he struggled with 10 tons, until he went ssj. I can find many feats in Naruto that puts them above DBZ in strength, because 10 tons isn't enough in there universe. Sasuke is limited to only his defense abilities that strengthens his offensive abilities, since he himself isn't the strongest.

Since when do low ends trump high ends?

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
Genjutsu is not the same as Babade's power's You're right, in most cases it's less powerful.

And Goku can level mountains with his punches. DBZ is an example of a serieswhere striking power is much greater than lifting strength (Though even then, that 40 tons shit is a serious outlier).

dvampire
Genjutsu is different from Babade's magic, which showed it's limit against someone who's powerlevel (not chakra because they are to different types of energy from two different universes) was higher. Genjutsu is not limited to one's powerlevel, this isn't DBZ, it's it's only beaten by someone having knowledge of the technique, if they don't, you're caught. Goku has no knowledge of the technique so he's in a position where his only option is to be caught, because he has to look at Sasuke in order to defeat him. Do you have any proof of Goku being stronger than Naruto character's? If you do, then provide scans to back up claim. The 40 tons is still a feat that happen, it's rejecting what's already been created in the manga, if you don't except that, then you're not except Goku strength entirely because that's the one situation where his strength is displayed. This just means you're adding stuff help Goku win in your favor. And Naruto have increadible strength feats that can easily be backed up by just a few scans.

dvampire
Originally posted by Classic NES
Since when do low ends trump high ends?

Can you show a high end strength feat?

Classic NES
Originally posted by dvampire
Can you show a high end strength feat?

I just did, Gravity ring a bell?

BloodRain
I just posted a strength feat scan..

AuraAngel
Guys, this guy would probably argue Sasuke could beat Superman since Supes would look in his eyes because stfu he would and whatever mind control or some shit he's overcome is obviously not the same as genjutsu. Why even bother? erm

BloodRain
TBH we should be going by feats and compared who it has/hasnt worked on. In this case Naruto-level characters against DBZ ones, which isnt much of a contest.


Inactivity creates desperation :I

dvampire
Do you have a grudge against Superman? Lets keep this on Sasuke vs. Goku.

dvampire
Originally posted by BloodRain
TBH we should be going by feats and compared who it has/hasnt worked on. In this case Naruto-level characters against DBZ ones, which isnt much of a contest.


Inactivity creates desperation :I

If we did it that way DBZ character's would always win since you favor them more. That's why comparing feats is necessary, which doesn't just mean blowing stuff up. Naruto have a variety of attacks in order to win, it's a universe made more versatile than DBZ (without the powerlevels).

AuraAngel
Originally posted by dvampire
Do you have a grudge against Superman? Lets keep this on Sasuke vs. Goku.

Yes, I hate him with every fiber of my being. Which is why I constantly make threads with him in them that I hope he loses in.

Nephthys
Its true, you do do that.

BloodRain
By feats Babidi's mind jack > Sasuke's genjutsu.

By feats Babidi < Vegeta (etc) manly will.

By feats Vegeta (etc) > Sasuke

Feats my boy.




Thats all well and good, now how about showing us exactly what they can bring to the table that will do more than tickle anyone at the beginning of DBZ. Physical or other.


EDIT: Aura, such a Superman hating douchbag ahah

AuraAngel
I can't help it. I hate douchebags that make it seem like wearing glasses should be acceptable in today's society.

Nephthys
I wear glasses. sad

AuraAngel
Man up and learn to live without them. uhuh

Nephthys
But if I take them off my mutant optic blasts will destroy everything. sad

AuraAngel
Pluck out your eyes. no expression

Nephthys
..... okay. http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/negativeman-55f.png

NemeBro
Dabura had a higher power level than Babidi.

Babadi controlled him.

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/458/12

Couldn't control Vegeta.

Babidi's whole schtick is that he is too weak to fight himself, so he mentally controls stronger characters to fight for him.

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/460/8

Crumbling mountains and plateaus from far away with their clash.

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/462/11
http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/462/12

Buu demolishing a cliffside by kicking Dabura into it.

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/308/14

Being driven through a plateau without a scratch on him, while also holding back Freeza's blast, combination strength and durability feat.

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/309/13
http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/309/14
http://www.manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/310

Knocking Freeza through two islands with a kick.

dvampire
Sasuke still traps Goku in a Genjustu, unless you beleive chakra is realated to ki, which is why Babade had no control over Vegeta (his powerlevel was weaker). Genjutsu is not related to ki, and has no realation to attacking the mind put the eye's, his eye's is the weakness, which he have no control over once he's caguht in the genjutsu unless he counter's it or Sasuke releases him from it.

You're showing durability feats but no strength feats. I can put Naruto character's taking hits and surviving them, and they're much more powerful than Goku's attacks.

Choji vs. Jirobo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDdxh0SIjPU&feature=related

This feat beats anything Goku has ever accomplished. Naruto chracter's have actaully destroyed hills (which is the only thing DBZ character's ever succeeded in doing), not moutains and survived unless it's involving chakra blasts.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
You're showing durability feats but no strength feats. You're retarded.

Falcon Man
Originally posted by dvampire
I think Sasuke would win because of his eyes.

Oh god. That actually hurt my brain. A migraine just appeared out of nowhere.

I'm impressed in a morbid sort of way. I didn't think that was possible.

Anyway, Goku stomps. He's faster, stronger, and more powerful than Sasuke could ever dream of being.

dvampire
You actually insult me for your own mistakes. Those aren't strength feats, but durability feats, character's taking punishment from another character's attack doesn't exactly prove that they are stronger, only that their offense is being used to gain an advantage in order to harm another, without any indication of showing how just how strong they really are.

dvampire
Originally posted by Falcon Man
Oh god. That actually hurt my brain. A migraine just appeared out of nowhere.

I'm impressed in a morbid sort of way. I didn't think that was possible.

Anyway, Goku stomps. He's faster, stronger, and more powerful than Sasuke could ever dream of being.

It hurt you because you have no way of countering it, so your only response is to limit it by actually making it useless, basically ignoring that Sasuke actaully has the ability to use in the fight in order to win.

AuraAngel
No one's saying Sasuke lacks the ability(even though he does lack the level head to use it like your suggesting). They're saying that Goku gives not a damn and will kill him regardless. By blitzing his head off since character apparently isn't a factor in this fight.

dvampire
Then you've actaully been beaten by your own desire to win because you have no hope of Goku winning in a fair fight. You just ignored all Sasuke's abilities (genjutsu) in order to help Goku win. So Sasuke wins.

Nephthys
Lol. This thread is golden.

AuraAngel
How? Goku IS faster than Sasuke and since you're not arguing with an in-character Sasuke, I'll argue with a bloodlusting, no holds bar Goku. And he will kill Sasuke and Sasuke will lose the fight because DBZ is far and away more powerful.

NemeBro
Originally posted by dvampire
You actually insult me for your own mistakes. Those aren't strength feats, but durability feats, character's taking punishment from another character's attack doesn't exactly prove that they are stronger, only that their offense is being used to gain an advantage in order to harm another, without any indication of showing how just how strong they really are. No, you are an imbecile.

Leveling plateaus with the shockwaves of your blows, kicking someone through two islands, demolishing a cliffside by kicking someone into it, those are strength feats.

Go the **** away.

BloodRain
no expression

So in your books that sound nin uppercutting a 500 ton Choji is more impressive than Gotenks punching Buu so hard he vaporizes a huge creator that registers on a town level? Not to mention all those ki blasts they tank.

Are you intentionally missing the plot or is it just some Naruto fan-lust coming through?

Based
Goku at his first tournament stomps any version of Sasuke.

dvampire
Goku wins!

Darkstorm Zero
My god....

For the first time, I actually disagree with Dvamp here... Except for the post above this one.

First of all, you have repeatedly said that Ki does not correspond to Chakra right? Well then, how would Genjutsu work on Goku at all? I mean, Genjutsu works by manipulating the Chakra in the target's brain in order to create falsified signals, hence the illusions are created. If Goku has not one ounce of Chakra to manipulate, then the technique is effectively worthless.

However, if Equivelancy is evoked, as in both Chakra and Ki work as it says on the tin, and interacts in a compatible way, then there is nothing stopping Goku from breaking the Genjutsu with a power up, essentially forcing the energy in the direction he wants it to go, and since Goku's energy manipulation is far more advanced, experienced and on a far greater scale, he could easily shatter just about any genjutsu short of perhaps Tsuyukomi and Koto Amatsukami, one of which sasuke is terrible with, and the other he does not possess.

The other thing is that if Equivelancy is in play, then Goku's sensor ability should work just fine. And if this is the case, he can easily detect the invading Chakra of a Genjutsu.

I actually had a debate similar to this at length in SpaceBattles...

Damborgson
Kid Goku maybe? Goku is so much faster than sasuke though and has an enormous amount of raw power. Even as a kid.

The sharingan can let him predict the movements, but his body isny fast enough to react.

Q99
It is worth noting that powering up has never been presented as a method for escaping genjutsu. The method to escape has always been to cease the energy flow with superior control.

After all, increasing the amount a ton doesn't get rid of the small amount messing with your senses.



Originally posted by Damborgson
Kid Goku maybe? Goku is so much faster than sasuke though and has an enormous amount of raw power. Even as a kid.

The sharingan can let him predict the movements, but his body isny fast enough to react.

Early-DB Goku wasn't that fast.

I mean, he was very superhuman, but so's Sasuke.

NemeBro
Kid Goku was faster than mach 14 the moment he trashed Tao.

Q99
Originally posted by NemeBro
Kid Goku was faster than mach 14 the moment he trashed Tao.

And I'll note that fast Naruto characters are double-digit mach, and Kid Goku had already improved noticeably from his start at that point.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Q99
And I'll note that fast Naruto characters are double-digit mach, and Kid Goku had already improved noticeably from his start at that point. What makes you think fast Naruto characters are double-digit mach?

Q99
Originally posted by NemeBro
What makes you think fast Naruto characters are double-digit mach?

Here's a thread that puts base-Gai at at least mach 5.8.

Base Naruto at mach 4.1

There's also apparently a calc that puts Deva path Pain at mach 5.3, but I can't find the thread for that one.


Stuff like Gated Gai, A's rush, and Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra Mod top speed all blow those out of the water.

As for Sasuke himself, he's not on that tier, but he's still pretty high up there when he body flickers.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Q99
Here's a thread that puts base-Gai at at least mach 5.8.

Base Naruto at mach 4.1

There's also apparently a calc that puts Deva path Pain at mach 5.3, but I can't find the thread for that one.


Stuff like Gated Gai, A's rush, and Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra Mod top speed all blow those out of the water.

As for Sasuke himself, he's not on that tier, but he's still pretty high up there when he body flickers.

And here's a thread that has the most accurate depiction of Gai's base speed calculated, so far:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13311964&userid%3A66591#post13311964



So this calculation is plain wrong:

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=715365


They made several errors in logic.

NemeBro
Since dadudemon's calc makes Gai less impressive, I fully support it. thumb up

Originally posted by Q99
Here's a thread that puts base-Gai at at least mach 5.8.

Base Naruto at mach 4.1

There's also apparently a calc that puts Deva path Pain at mach 5.3, but I can't find the thread for that one.


Stuff like Gated Gai, A's rush, and Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra Mod top speed all blow those out of the water.

As for Sasuke himself, he's not on that tier, but he's still pretty high up there when he body flickers. Yeah... That's a leap of logic that I'm honestly not willing to do.

It is all well and good to say "Character A is x, but character B blitzed A, so B is at least y", but that form of reasoning is based on too many assumptions. We can say that characters faster than A are over that level of speed, but how much should not be specified, unless quantified themselves in a way.

Also, Sasuke IMHO isn't even as fast as base Gai, so bleh. stick out tongue

dadudemon
Originally posted by NemeBro
Since dadudemon's calc makes Gai less impressive, I fully support it. thumb up


B*tch, my calc is right because it is based on acceleration of gravity at sea level and Lee's actual "canon" pre-time skip height.


If anything, my calc is off by being overgenerous because Lee's clothes and the sand would provide resistance to Lee's foot falling down...so the 44 m/s or 88 m/s could be too generous.


Also, we don't know how long Lee was at a 'resting' state by the time Gai got over there so it could be much much lower than 44 m/s.


Still, my calc puts guy at 4-8 times faster than the world's fastest man: Usain Bolt. So Gai is definitely super human. Just not that stupid mach 5 shit the other dude posted.


Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, Sasuke IMHO isn't even as fast as base Gai, so bleh. stick out tongue

You're not wrong: pre-time skip Gai has a speed of 5 and post-time skip Sasuke is a 4.5.

"God" says that Gai is faster than Sasuke so any calcs that result in Sasuke being faster than Gai (around the time the third data book came out) absolutely and certainly must be thrown out as that goes against the creator's intentions.

Q99
I'll note that's still just a lower-limit (i.e. it says Gai moved that fast, not that he can only move that fast).

Then there's also the Naruto calc....


You know, it surprises me that people underrate Naruto's speed that much. Their battles cover a ton of ground, people cover long distances in an instant often, etc..

And, of course, 6 Gated Gai is fast enough to throw thousands of punches in seconds, and 7 hit hard enough that the shockwave of his punch makes a kilometers-across splash.



Well, doesn't that apply to early DB, One Piece, etc.? People seem to be pretty free with throwing high speed on a lot of series, but not the one that, say, has a fight start in a town, has two characters run for a pretty short time, then they make a multi-kilometer hole (Pain's moon) and the town isn't even in sight any more- all without even using their bodyflicker move, which is only used in close range.


I mean, I can see your point, but it seems to me that it gets applied unevenly. Naruto has a lot of speed stuff in it, and often compares quite well to many shounen manga people seem to reflexively give the nod to even if they in turn don't show that exceptional speed feats (YYH in another thread recently, early DB, etc.).

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Q99
It is worth noting that powering up has never been presented as a method for escaping genjutsu. The method to escape has always been to cease the energy flow with superior control.

After all, increasing the amount a ton doesn't get rid of the small amount messing with your senses.

Superior control is another thing Goku posesses, along with a limited form of telepathy. Plus, he can raise and lower his power level quite a bit at will.

Originally posted by Q99
Early-DB Goku wasn't that fast.

I mean, he was very superhuman, but so's Sasuke.

Hmm, Kishi once stated that modern firearms would be the end of the ninjas, hence why we don't see things like guns and missiles. Now, gunfire has never been able to actually seriously hurt Goku even in the first episode when Bulma shot him in the face.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Q99
I'll note that's still just a lower-limit (i.e. it says Gai moved that fast, not that he can only move that fast).

I'll note that it was fast enough to save his "precious student's" life and an argument from "it was lower limit" is quite fallacious. Saving one of his student's lives is hardly a "lower end" speed feat.



Originally posted by Q99
Then there's also the Naruto calc....

Which I should definitely systematically destroy. That calc has MANY more problems than the Gai calc. Seriously, I can't believe such stupidity is allowed to run rampant on OBD and those calcs left standing as "legit". It's as if no one there has a clear understanding of how real science or physics work and they just mash together concepts into freakish Frankenstein calculations.


Here are all the problems with that calculation:


1. Sasuke's arm is not swinging, it was stabbing: a stabbing motion is slower than an arm swinging motion. This is simple rotation physics: a swing has the arm almost fully extended. A stabbing motion has the arm bent at the elbow. The stab wasn't quite top down like the sword slices measured on Mythbusters so the benefit of gravity is not there to help the arm move faster. So even if the same exact forces are applied to moving that kunai as applied to a top-down swing, the arm cannot move as fast, at the very end, because it is bent (see forces applied to a lever arm, over time, in your physics 201 textbook) and semi-thrusting and semi-swinging in a rotation motion. Loss of length of lever arm? Loss of maximum speed. So an equal application of the Mythbusters swing fails here.

2. The mythbusters calculation measured 6ms to slice through 7 inches. They said on the show that they found 'the best'. I would take this to mean that they are among the best modern Samurai swordsman they could find in CA. Here's where the calculation goes horribly wrong: they measured the peak speed at which the SWORD moved through the bamboo bundles NOT their arm speed. They were measuring the blade speed. Because of how a lever arm moves in a rotation, the speed at the hands will be significantly slower than the speed at the tip of the sword. This is also a lever arm thing (like above) but it is rotational lever arms. This is known as angular velocity. The speed at their hands would be significantly lower than the speed at the tip of the sword...like...much slower. So in order to calculate the velocity at his fingers, you'd need to know the length of his lever arm and his velocity in radians. That cannot be determined from what we know. The use of this Mythbusters feat is not translatable, in a physics sense, to this speed feat from Sasuke because of points 1 and 2.

3. The speed of the sword, as mentioned in point 1, would be faster than Sasuke's stabbing motion because of the lever arm distance mentioned in point #2 and gravity assisting with the slicing speed.

4. The actual speed of the slicing motion was calculated wrong, as well.

7 inches in 6 ms.

7 inches = 2.54cm*7 inches = 17.7800 cm

17.78 cm/100 (to find meter) = 0.1778 m

0.1778 m / 0.006 s (this is 6 ms) = 29.63

29.63 m/s is the ACTUAL velocity of the swinging samurai sword.


So his math is wrong...and it is wrong against his favor. WTF?


5. Sasuke is taller than being portrayed by the measures. The blue segment being used to measure Sasuke's height is just wrong. Sasuke, in the first image, is standing with his feet apart. That can reduce his overall height. Besides the non sequitur use of his arms in the stabbing calculation, there is also the error in height that was used for the calculation. There's also the problem of him not standing straight up: his had is slightly hunkered. Then he is leaning slightly on his right leg. Using myself as a measure, I stood straight up (I'm 5'10"wink and then stood with my feet shoulder width apart, with a lean to the right, with my head slightly lowered like Sasuke's. There was a 4.5 inch difference in height. Since Sasuke is shorter than I am, let's use 4 inches. That's 10.16 cm.

So the arm length measure now becomes different. Also, measuring with a rule on your screen is quite dumb/lame. The best measure, because it will be the same on everyone's computer, is using pixels. Just zoom in enough and count them. I am not going through the calculation, again, but 10.16 cm needs to be removed from Sasuke's height in the calculated speed feat.

6. Naruto was coming to a stop in the very next panel but was sliding mad crazy on the water (it's like he's skiing...just look at it). That means his final resting point was farther than the one where we see Sasuke. That will significantly lower the measure. Doing a visual, I estimate Naruto's distance to be about 3 meters away from Sasuke, at the most.



So what did we learn from this? 6 major areas of flaws that show the calculation not only has bad math but atrocious concept execution. As the variables stand, the feat is incalculable. We just don't know how fast Sasuke's stabbing motion was and we have no idea how long and how far Naruto was sliding on the water before we see that panel (look at the water streams...looks like .5 meters to 1 meter).

So the feat must be thrown out, in my opinion.

The best "base" Naruto speed feat we have is an actual second count down where Naruto closes the gap with Pain (Nagato) during Naruto's 5 second, on panel, count down. Why was that not used? I'll tell you why: it would vastly reduce Naruto's base speed.



This makes me wonder how many of the calculations in the wiki are either plain wrong or significantly off. I know with Edward's profile, they have his strength horribly under estimated. Edward says they are thousands of time stronger than humans (or a thousand). The average human male (in shape, not this modern sedentary version that we are, now..I can almost get 300 lbs, myself) can clean and jerk over 150lbs. Using a low end estimate of only 1000 times stronger, that means Edward can clean and jerk 150,000 pounds. That's 75 tons.

Why was that canon statement made by Edward, who is one of the most educated people in their universe (Edward said that the only person who has read more books than him is Carlisle and twilight vampires have eidetic memory (from book 4)). So why would Edward be a biased source or an inaccurate source? Based on the strength feat I calculated for his "tree pushover" feat, his strength jumped well into the hundreds of tonnes (not tons) of force, thus proving Edward's statement about "thousands" of time stronger to be accurate. That's just an example of one of the areas that OBD is definitely wrong with their calculated measures.


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, Kishi once stated that modern firearms would be the end of the ninjas, hence why we don't see things like guns and missiles. Now, gunfire has never been able to actually seriously hurt Goku even in the first episode when Bulma shot him in the face.

Touché.

This makes me think that the ninjas are intended to be portrayed much closer to in speed to the measure I came up with for Gai: 44ms-88ms.

Q99
Remember, we aren't talking about Freiza/Cell saga Goku here who can do plenty of stuff. We're mostly talking kid.



Nope, he stated guns would be the end of kunai, big difference. I.e. ninja would use them as sidearms.

Also, high level ninja have taken hits from stuff a lot stronger than guns.

dadudemon
I posted. no expression

Q99
Also, while Goku does control larger amounts of power, subtle chi use is not really a thing in DB/DBZ.

Damborgson
http://naruto-fans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/26805590.jpg
Guy=God. Anyone who disagrees is obviously retarded.

cdtm
Originally posted by KingD19
Goku from Kaio-Ken level and up beats Sasuke to death before he realizes he's dead.

Even before that! big grin

DBZ characters were, bare minimum, mountain busters well before the Saiyan Saga.. Roshi busted the moon, but even if we discount that as PIS (Given that's by far the most powerful feat of that era..), characters like Piccolo were able to bust continents...

cdtm
Originally posted by Q99
Also, while Goku does control larger amounts of power, subtle chi use is not really a thing in DB/DBZ.

Well, it's certainly not prominent compared to the island busting brute force tactics, but there are examples of subtle chi..

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081130061855/dragonball/images/f/fd/Chiaoztu.jpg

He was actually a pretty formidable telekinetic, causing Krillin to double over in pain in their first fight. Too bad Toriyama seemed to lose interest in him..

Kami, he recreated the moon, Kaioshin created a cube of ultra dense matter out of thin air, and babadi displayed global level tp (Which Vegeta was able to resist, btw.)
'
But yeah, the subtle stuff is rarely, if ever, a major component of DB combat..

But when you could nuke a city with the flick of a finger, who "needs" subtle chi? stick out tongue

dadudemon
Originally posted by cdtm
But when you could nuke a city with the flick of a finger, who "needs" subtle chi? stick out tongue

That pretty much covers it...they don't need things like Genjutsu when even weak-characters are far more powerful than Biju.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Do you have the link?

Yes, I do:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13311964&userid%3A66591#post13311964


Don't mind the typos but it shows am much more accurate depiction of his average speed during that "feat".



Originally posted by dadudemon
If anything, my calc is off by being overgenerous because Lee's clothes and the sand would provide resistance to Lee's foot falling down...so the 44 m/s or 88 m/s could be too generous.


Also, we don't know how long Lee was at a 'resting' state by the time Gai got over there so it could be much much lower than 44 m/s.


Still, my calc puts guy at 4-8 times faster than the world's fastest man: Usain Bolt. So Gai is definitely super human. Just not that stupid mach 5 shit the other dude posted.


And here is the destruction of the Naruto Calc (I list out all the problems and assumptions with that calc):


Originally posted by dadudemon
That calc has MANY more problems than the Gai calc. Seriously, I can't believe such stupidity is allowed to run rampant on OBD and those calcs left standing as "legit". It's as if no one there has a clear understanding of how real science or physics work and they just mash together concepts into freakish Frankenstein calculations.


Here are all the problems with that calculation:


1. Sasuke's arm is not swinging, it was stabbing: a stabbing motion is slower than an arm swinging motion. This is simple rotation physics: a swing has the arm almost fully extended. A stabbing motion has the arm bent at the elbow. The stab wasn't quite top down like the sword slices measured on Mythbusters so the benefit of gravity is not there to help the arm move faster. So even if the same exact forces are applied to moving that kunai as applied to a top-down swing, the arm cannot move as fast, at the very end, because it is bent (see forces applied to a lever arm, over time, in your physics 201 textbook) and semi-thrusting and semi-swinging in a rotation motion. Loss of length of lever arm? Loss of maximum speed. So an equal application of the Mythbusters swing fails here.

2. The mythbusters calculation measured 6ms to slice through 7 inches. They said on the show that they found 'the best'. I would take this to mean that they are among the best modern Samurai swordsman they could find in CA. Here's where the calculation goes horribly wrong: they measured the peak speed at which the SWORD moved through the bamboo bundles NOT their arm speed. They were measuring the blade speed. Because of how a lever arm moves in a rotation, the speed at the hands will be significantly slower than the speed at the tip of the sword. This is also a lever arm thing (like above) but it is rotational lever arms. This is known as angular velocity. The speed at their hands would be significantly lower than the speed at the tip of the sword...like...much slower. So in order to calculate the velocity at his fingers, you'd need to know the length of his lever arm and his velocity in radians. That cannot be determined from what we know. The use of this Mythbusters feat is not translatable, in a physics sense, to this speed feat from Sasuke because of points 1 and 2.

3. The speed of the sword, as mentioned in point 1, would be faster than Sasuke's stabbing motion because of the lever arm distance mentioned in point #2 and gravity assisting with the slicing speed.

4. The actual speed of the slicing motion was calculated wrong, as well.

7 inches in 6 ms.

7 inches = 2.54cm*7 inches = 17.7800 cm

17.78 cm/100 (to find meter) = 0.1778 m

0.1778 m / 0.006 s (this is 6 ms) = 29.63

29.63 m/s is the ACTUAL velocity of the swinging samurai sword.


So his math is wrong...and it is wrong against his favor. WTF?


5. Sasuke is taller than being portrayed by the measures. The blue segment being used to measure Sasuke's height is just wrong. Sasuke, in the first image, is standing with his feet apart. That can reduce his overall height. Besides the non sequitur use of his arms in the stabbing calculation, there is also the error in height that was used for the calculation. There's also the problem of him not standing straight up: his had is slightly hunkered. Then he is leaning slightly on his right leg. Using myself as a measure, I stood straight up (I'm 5'10"wink and then stood with my feet shoulder width apart, with a lean to the right, with my head slightly lowered like Sasuke's. There was a 4.5 inch difference in height. Since Sasuke is shorter than I am, let's use 4 inches. That's 10.16 cm.

So the arm length measure now becomes different. Also, measuring with a rule on your screen is quite dumb/lame. The best measure, because it will be the same on everyone's computer, is using pixels. Just zoom in enough and count them. I am not going through the calculation, again, but 10.16 cm needs to be removed from Sasuke's height in the calculated speed feat.

6. Naruto was coming to a stop in the very next panel but was sliding mad crazy on the water (it's like he's skiing...just look at it). That means his final resting point was farther than the one where we see Sasuke. That will significantly lower the measure. Doing a visual, I estimate Naruto's distance to be about 3 meters away from Sasuke, at the most.



So what did we learn from this? 6 major areas of flaws that show the calculation not only has bad math but atrocious concept execution. As the variables stand, the feat is incalculable. We just don't know how fast Sasuke's stabbing motion was and we have no idea how long and how far Naruto was sliding on the water before we see that panel (look at the water streams...looks like .5 meters to 1 meter).

So the feat must be thrown out, in my opinion.

The best "base" Naruto speed feat we have is an actual second count down where Naruto closes the gap with Pain (Nagato) during Naruto's 5 second, on panel, count down. Why was that not used? I'll tell you why: it would vastly reduce Naruto's base speed.



This makes me wonder how many of the calculations in the wiki are either plain wrong or significantly off. I know with Edward's profile, they have his strength horribly under estimated. Edward says they are thousands of time stronger than humans (or a thousand). The average human male (in shape, not this modern sedentary version that we are, now..I can almost get 300 lbs, myself) can clean and jerk over 150lbs. Using a low end estimate of only 1000 times stronger, that means Edward can clean and jerk 150,000 pounds. That's 75 tons.

Why was that canon statement made by Edward, who is one of the most educated people in their universe (Edward said that the only person who has read more books than him is Carlisle and twilight vampires have eidetic memory (from book 4)). So why would Edward be a biased source or an inaccurate source? Based on the strength feat I calculated for his "tree pushover" feat, his strength jumped well into the hundreds of tonnes (not tons) of force, thus proving Edward's statement about "thousands" of time stronger to be accurate. That's just an example of one of the areas that OBD is definitely wrong with their calculated measures.


To get context, you'll have to visit the OBD links, in that thread, I just linked to. Click "post" at the top of the quoted post to get linked to the thread.

Q99
Originally posted by dadudemon
That pretty much covers it...they don't need things like Genjutsu when even weak-characters are far more powerful than Biju.


Point is, subtle control, not raw power, is how one beats genjutsu.

AsbestosFlaygon
I think Current Sasuke is significantly stronger than pre-Roshi Goku.

dadudemon
WTF? How the crap did I end up with a double post up in here?


That's it, time to go to bed. I've been up for 36 hours..(maybe 37?). Time to spoon with the wife.

rocklanddrums1
In the latest movie goku literally became a God so he wins. There's no arguing that

AuraAngel
Sasuke's genjutsu>God.

vansonbee
Little late to the thread and I can see some people are fighting hard for their characters (like always). IMO Sasuke will lose to Teen Goku and up. I don't think DB Goku can get it done in time. Kid Goku always seem to take hits before fighting back. Sasuke has an opportunity against this version.


King Piccolo > Sasuke though, cuz Piccolo can muster up more energy attacks and isn't soft as Kid Goku.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Sasuke's genjutsu>God.

thumb up


Sasuke stomps this Monkey-King wannabe.

Luffygear4
WOW, sasuke isnt even on one piece level, let alone planet busting level, saiyan saga goku shit stomp...

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Luffygear4
WOW, sasuke isnt even on one piece level, let alone planet busting level, saiyan saga goku shit stomp...

Sasuke busts dimensions. Planet busting is beneath him. Goku would lose his anus trying to fight Sasuke.

bbrem123
not sure if serious^

Yokairi
For Genjutsu, Goku doesn't fight with his eyes at high speeds. Piccolo told Gohan as a child to try to sense Goku fighting, since Gohan couldn 't the blows actually being traded, as they were too fast for his eyes. In the case that Genjutsu gets a hold of Goku, Goku was able to block Trunks's sword that sliced Frieza easily with his finger. Any sharpened attack on Goku is ineffective. Furthermore, Goku is able to withstand multiple quadrillion megatons, proven when he was with Dr. Gero. Goku was also proven to withstand his own Kamehameha, so right there any attack Sasuke can dish out is ineffective. Furthermore, Chakra isn't the same as Ki, so Goku is already immune to Genjutsu, since Genjutsu is used through the use of manipulating the target's chakra. Goku can go several times over the speed of sound (as a kid, Goku could go at LEAST Mach 3 since he could create 4 after images and more). Goku's strength shows that at SSJ4 he could withstand 6 sextillion tons. Goku's Durability was already said. Furthermore, Goku can sense any form of energy, and therefore constantly know where Sasuke is.

Luffygear4
^^ basically except ssj4 wasnt cannon to the actual db, dbz show and wasnt created by toriyama

bbrem123
http://www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-z-episode-265/

go to 5 min and tell me if sasuke can keep up with goku ahaha

Yokairi
The SSJ4 concept was created by Toriyama. Even if DBGT wasn't canon, SSJ4 most definitely is. Regardless, even if Goku went SSJ - actually, Goku could beat Sasuke in base form. Regardless, Genjutsu won't effect Goku, and if it does, Sasuke can't do anything to Goku afterwards. If Goku felt the need to, he could kill Sasuke with a single Destructo Disk. Of course, that would be out of character, but either way, Goku's faster, stronger, more durable, smarter in terms of battle, clever, and just has more skill and experience. At most, Sasuke is city buster; Goku? Multiple Universe buster. One of the only stronger beings than Goku that still exist is a GOD in the 11th Universe. Otherwise, there all dead. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but either way, the entire realm of Naruto most likely couldn't even beat Krillin. I can do the math if necessary. (Krillin could go Mach 3 at least during original DB.)

Yokairi
I can't edit the previous post; I meant to type "they're", for all the Grammar Nazis out there.

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Yokairi
For Genjutsu, Goku doesn't fight with his eyes at high speeds. Piccolo told Gohan as a child to try to sense Goku fighting, since Gohan couldn 't the blows actually being traded, as they were too fast for his eyes. In the case that Genjutsu gets a hold of Goku, Goku was able to block Trunks's sword that sliced Frieza easily with his finger. Any sharpened attack on Goku is ineffective. Furthermore, Goku is able to withstand multiple quadrillion megatons, proven when he was with Dr. Gero. Goku was also proven to withstand his own Kamehameha, so right there any attack Sasuke can dish out is ineffective. Furthermore, Chakra isn't the same as Ki, so Goku is already immune to Genjutsu, since Genjutsu is used through the use of manipulating the target's chakra. Goku can go several times over the speed of sound (as a kid, Goku could go at LEAST Mach 3 since he could create 4 after images and more). Goku's strength shows that at SSJ4 he could withstand 6 sextillion tons. Goku's Durability was already said. Furthermore, Goku can sense any form of energy, and therefore constantly know where Sasuke is.

Cool story bro. thumb up

Kirin one-shots Goku.

GG Goku.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I think Goku would win because he would. Lol hell ya

ShadeSlayer15
how can we even put anyone from naruto against A dbz character expesh goku... and for the record goku is a god ssj god dbz battle of gods ssj 4 aint real and that's that. naruto fan boyzzz lol

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
how can we even put anyone from naruto against A dbz character expesh goku... and for the record goku is a god ssj god dbz battle of gods ssj 4 aint real and that's that. naruto fan boyzzz lol Cool story bro. thumb up

Kirin one-shots Goku.

GG Goku.

ShadeSlayer15
Ya right bro, get real

ShadeSlayer15
would NEVER happen If the God Of distruction Cant one shot kill goku then what chance is a Over power ninja going to have. that hast to be the dumbs thing ive seen on this site

ShadeSlayer15
I watch kirin sasuke or whatever, He cant even match gokus Strenght let alone skill and power, Your man couldn't even survive 20x gravity bet. ewwww he can use a lightning thing hahah. his power couldn't even make a thunder cloud like almost anyone with power in dbz. he had to heat the atmis with fire #Pussy. Lightning really goku is constently surrounded by it come on

Demonic Phoenix
Whatever you say bro. thumb up

Kirin still one-shots Goku.

GG Goku.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Whatever you say bro. thumb up

Kirin still one-shots Goku.

GG Goku. Good one, You got jokes buddy! I one shot your mom

Demonic Phoenix
I know bro. She told me about the guy who could barely keep his miniscule penis up for 2 seconds. thumb up

Kirin still one-shots Goku.

GG Goku.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I know bro. She told me about the guy who could barely keep his miniscule penis up for 2 seconds. thumb up

Kirin still one-shots Goku.

GG Goku. At least she was honest and didn't lie to you! stop trolling me! tell your mom to call me

Demonic Phoenix
no expression.....I can honestly say that that was not the type of response I was expecting.


Kirin would still one-shot Goku.

GG Goku.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
no expression.....I can honestly say that that was not the type of response I was expecting.


Kirin would still one-shot Goku.

GG Goku. confused embarrasment hahaha it happens

I am Vegeta
Yamcha Solos

SSJGGogeta
@ dvampire: You're a dumb ass fanboy. Sasuke broke out of Itachi's tsukiyomi because he was more powerful. Since raw power can break even the best Genjutsu, Goku easily kills Sasuke before he notices that Goku moved. Goku was as strong as Roshi from the time he was a child, and Roshi easily blew up the moon with one Kamehameha. Goku would shit on the entire Naruto-verse as a child with no problem. King Piccolo blew up entire continents by waving a hand. Also, if Sasuke puts Goku under Tsukiyomi, which always has the red moon in it, Goku would go great ape and step on Sasuke like an ant. Why would you even start a thread if all you were gonna do is defend your favorite character like a stupid fanboy? All that does is prove that you're an idiot.

I am Vegeta
Raditz could probably solo the Naruto verse

BloodRain
Originally posted by BloodRain
Pre-skip Sasuke > Pre-Roshi Goku
He can blitz, chidori should be fatal.

Current Sasuke > Pre-Tao Goku
Before Tao's Ma14 speed. Susanoo should make them physically equal, Sasuke winning for the extras he brings to the table.

Sasuke managing to pull off Kirin > Piccolo Daimo saga Goku
The furthest he could possibly go if he fights smart, makes good use of his eyes and ultimately uses Kirin. Not sure where abouts the Sharingan will become ineffective though..
Although current developments has his Amaterasu and Perfect Susanoo being up there with Kirin. Won't get any further but at least he'd have a better time against that Goku.

TheTyrant
Sasuke will stomp any Goku pre-23rd Budokai tbh. Goku can't break Susano'o or Tsukuyomi.

Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Raditz could probably solo the Naruto verse

No he couldn't. Sage of Six Paths would tear Raditz to pieces. Nappa is the weakest DBZ character who can solo Narutoverse.

I am Vegeta
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Sasuke will stomp any Goku pre-23rd Budokai tbh. Goku can't break Susano'o or Tsukuyomi.



No he couldn't. Sage of Six Paths would tear Raditz to pieces. Nappa is the weakest DBZ character who can solo Narutoverse. No raditz solos just for the fact he has awesome hair and is faster and blows up mountains with a causal blast.

XanatosForever
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I think Goku would win because he would.

I don't know why, but this made me laugh so hard. haermm

I am Vegeta
I would blow my huge load all over sasuke's insides oh wait that sounds wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09a8RBPKKnE

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