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Anakin somehow finds himself face to face with his dark counterpart before the suit. In the Chancellor's office, but no Sids present. No nexus-based power increases. Who wins in the ultimate all-out showdown between Anakin and his unmarred dark half?

Since pre-suit vader is an emotional wreck and Anakin can relax during fights, I would say that pre-suit vader accidently leaps out of the window (assuming the hole is still in the window)

Sorry, should have specified. Office is whole and undamaged.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Since pre-suit vader is an emotional wreck and Anakin can relax during fights, I would say that pre-suit vader accidently leaps out of the window (assuming the hole is still in the window)

That emotional wreck curbstomped Cin Drallig with one hand tied behind his back.

Pre-Suit Vader takes this imo. His speed and arguably his power exceed/ match his later form.

I think this ultimately comes (again) to the question: what do we mean by stating "RotS Anakin", because the only time we see Jedi Anakin fight in RotS is when he is in teh Zon3...
If RotS ANakin = Zone Anakin, then RotS Anakin wins this duel handily.


Nice thread BTW!

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I think this ultimately comes (again) to the question: what do we mean by stating "RotS Anakin", because the only time we see Jedi Anakin fight in RotS is when he is in teh Zon3...
If RotS ANakin = Zone Anakin, then RotS Anakin wins this duel handily.


Nice thread BTW!

RotS Anakin does mean Zone Anakin. If, however Zone No-Suit Vader even exists, that is who he is fight.

If Anakin doesn't get angered, then Vader wins him with minor difficulty. Before Dooku handled Kenobi, Anakin wasn't much problem for him.

If Anakin gets in the zone, Vader still wins after a difficult fight as his higher rage gives him greater power and strength.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That emotional wreck curbstomped Cin Drallig with one hand tied behind his back.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Pre-Suit Vader takes this imo. His speed and arguably his power exceed/ match his later form.

His lack of control and focus though, is a fatal liability, and although his Zone version could take out Kenobi, his Pre-suit Persona, could not.

RotS Anakin wins this.

- Hell, I'm not even sure Pre-suit Vader could defeat Count Dooku.


Originally posted by axel_jovan
I think this ultimately comes (again) to the question: what do we mean by stating "RotS Anakin", because the only time we see Jedi Anakin fight in RotS is when he is in teh Zon3...
If RotS ANakin = Zone Anakin, then RotS Anakin wins this duel handily.


Nice thread BTW!

Agreed.


Originally posted by jmoul
RotS Anakin does mean Zone Anakin. If, however Zone No-Suit Vader even exists, that is who he is fight.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as Zone Pre-suit Vader - if there was, Obi-wan would have doing the backstroke in hot lava and singing soprano.

RotS Anakin stomps here.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That emotional wreck curbstomped Cin Drallig with one hand tied behind his back.

Pre-Suit Vader takes this imo. His speed and arguably his power exceed/ match his later form.

His later form? This is between RotS Anakin and pre-suit Vader, not Pre-suit Vader and suited Vader.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
His later form? This is between RotS Anakin and pre-suit Vader, not Pre-suit Vader and suited Vader.

Anakin (w/ his clarity/focus) wins BTW... and apologies for the double-post.

Any evidence that Anakin had less control and focus during fight with Kenobi?

Anakin got enraged and was recklessly attaking Dooku, his entire focus was on him. Same way he recklessly attacked Kenobi, his entire focus was on him to the point that he didn't care about anything else.

You judged Yoda vs Dooku by what you see in film and I agreed with you on that. So lets judge it by what we see in film and this time. Lets compare fights of Anakin with Dooku and Kenobi.

He kicked Dooku ones. He, also, kicked Kenobi and strength of it was enough for Kenobi to generate a backflip. Moreover, he kicked Kenobi second time and Kenobi was completly knocked off feet and dropped lightsaber.

Anakin couldn't overwhelm Dooku in pure sabers but defeated him with a grappling technique. Anakin tried grappling Kenobi as well but unlike Dooku Kenobi is good in unarmed combat and managed to escape it.

Overally, Anakin tried on Kenobi everything he tried on Dooku but Kenobi proved to be harder to defeat.

Also, Dooku stalemated Anakin in saber lock. Kenobi in CW demonstrated that his strength is firmly above Dooku. Yet, Anakin was overpowering Kenobi and nearly pushed his one lightsaber into his face.

Finally, Anakin vs Kenobi fight had much higher speed and technical level comparing to Anakin vs Dooku and Windu vs Sidious and pretty much all other movie fights. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Anakin's performance was decreased. On the other hand it looks like he performed better than ever and lost only because of his recklessness.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
His later form? This is between RotS Anakin and pre-suit Vader, not Pre-suit Vader and suited Vader.

Oh wow, my bad, reading comprehension ftw.
Yeah ROTS Jedi Anakin dominates this then, especially in teh zone.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi in CW demonstrated that his strength is firmly above Dooku.

Are you talking about force enhanced strength? If you are then don't forget Dooku's Uber kick which sent ROTS Anakin flying across the room landing on his rear.

I don't remember Obi-Wan landing a kick on Anakin (or anyone) which was that powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
Any evidence that Anakin had less control and focus during fight with Kenobi?




Gee, I dunno... crying and force choking the shit out of his wife maybe?

I'd say that indicates some mental instability, of which focus and clarity are not usually associated with.

Ehm... Actually legs are more than strong enough to knock off feat even without Force enchancing. And Anakin's posture was completely unbalanced to withstand even a weak kick.

My opinion was based on feats with Opress. Dooku on first encounter with Opress got nocked off feet and dropped lightsaber. Kenobi before getting disarmed blocked three attacks without doing a single step backward. And later even combined strength of Opress and Maul wasn't enough to overpower Kenobi in saber lock.
As for Kenobi's kicks I believe that it requires hell lot of strength to break leg of someone like Opress. And in RotS Kenobi kicked Anakin right into face knocking him down, I don't think anyone else apart from Anakin would still be combat effective after such concussion.

But yes, it seems that Dooku can muster a lot of strength as well as he demonstrated on Anakin. Perhaps because Kenobi trained with Anakin, he had much more experience than Dooku in countering very strong attacks.

Originally posted by Arhael


My opinion was based on feats with Opress. Dooku on first encounter with Opress got nocked off feet and dropped lightsaber. Kenobi before getting disarmed blocked three attacks without doing a single step backward. And later even combined strength of Opress and Maul wasn't enough to overpower Kenobi in saber lock.

I'm not sure that's quite fair. Dooku's first fight with Opress was in their sparring match where he totally embarrassed him. Yes that was before his training from Dooku, but he still had all that physical strength and likely some force enhanced strength.

Whilst the time he got knocked down he was spending a lot of energy dodging both him and Ventress.

Also don't forget how he deflected all of Skywalker's Power Strikes in "Crisis on Naboo."


Originally posted by Arhael
As for Kenobi's kicks I believe that it requires hell lot of strength to break leg of someone like Opress.



True his kicks against Opress were impressive. But I was more impressed with the way he used them. Kicking the knee is a martial artist's way of weakening your opponent.

So it's hard to quantify how impressive it is to hurt Opress's knee. Clearly it takes strength because Adi Gallia couldn't do it. But it's not like Obi-Wan did it with one kick either.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh wow, my bad, reading comprehension ftw.
Yeah ROTS Jedi Anakin dominates this then, especially in teh zone.
Yes, the emotional wreck vs Anakin in pure clarity of mind. I can't see Pre-suit vader take Anakin with pure clarity of mind, since he single-handedly beat dooku with pure clarity of mind.

I'm not sure that's quite fair. Dooku's first fight with Opress was in their sparring match where he totally embarrassed him.
If you re-watch that sparring, you will see that Dooku deflects his attacks sideways relying on his grace instead of strength.


Not at all.
When they both attacked, Dooku exchanged a few parries with Ventress, dodged Opress twice and kicked her twice. It all happened in 16 seconds. Then, while she was recovering from second kick, he fully focused on Opress. He dodged 6-7 attacks and and on first block was knocked off feet. If you think that Dooku got tired in 16 seconds prior to that, then you seriously underestimate his Force reserves.
And he continued fighting Ventress after and spamming lightning on Opress, it doesn't look that he was tired at all. Moreover, after Opress choked them both Dooku and Ventress continued fighting, Dooku was driving her back then utterly Force stomped her by Force pinning her to a wall, pulling lightsabers out of her hands like Yoda and electrocuting her. So Opress legitimately overwhelmed him with strength.


Yet, Anakin was nowhere as strong as Opress, he acquired similar strength only after getting suit. That was the idea that noone was as strong as Opress, not Anakin, not Kenobi, not Sidious.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Gee, I dunno... crying and force choking the shit out of his wife maybe?

I'd say that indicates some mental instability, of which focus and clarity are not usually associated with.

That was such a badly-written movie. Leave it up to George Lucas to create a totally unrealistic character.

Originally posted by Arhael

If you re-watch that sparring, you will see that Dooku deflects his attacks sideways relying on his grace instead of strength.

Point is Dooku was most probably taken by surprise when he got knocked down by Opress's strength. End of the day Ventress has parried a full on blow from Opress and Dooku has shown he's easily at least as strong as her. Obi-Wan was also disarmed by Opress in a few blows in the episode "Revenge" but then in "Revival" he parried many many blows of Opress, sometimes one handed.

So clearly you have to be ready to take on Opress's full blows.

Edit- And let's not forget that Dooku has parried the combined power of Obi-Wan and Anakin one handed!


Originally posted by Arhael
When they both attacked, Dooku exchanged a few parries with Ventress, dodged Opress twice and kicked her twice. It all happened in 16 seconds. Then, while she was recovering from second kick, he fully focused on Opress. He dodged 6-7 attacks and and on first block was knocked off feet. If you think that Dooku got tired in 16 seconds prior to that, then you seriously underestimate his Force reserves.


Well according to the script Dooku was getting tired in ROTS when he was fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin. And he hardly fights them both for 20 seconds.

So clearly fighting off 2 powerful opponents like that can be draining.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he continued fighting Ventress after and spamming lightning on Opress, it doesn't look that he was tired at all. Moreover, after Opress choked them both Dooku and Ventress continued fighting, Dooku was driving her back then utterly Force stomped her by Force pinning her to a wall, pulling lightsabers out of her hands like Yoda and electrocuting her. So Opress legitimately overwhelmed him with strength.

But as we know from the ROTS novel, Dooku does get tired but can then revitalize himself with the Force.

So we can assume he probably revitalized himself a few times during the Opress/Ventress fight as well.


Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, Anakin was nowhere as strong as Opress, he acquired similar strength only after getting suit. That was the idea that noone was as strong as Opress, not Anakin, not Kenobi, not Sidious.

Your just talking about Physical Strength. I'm talking about Physical plus Force Enhanced Strength. I'm not sure Opress or Vader were stronger than an Enraged Anakin. And don't forget about Anakin's Cyborg arm that can crush droids like paper.

So clearly you have to be ready to take on Opress's full blows.
Completely agree. Everyone was taken by surprise of his strength. All I pointed out is that Kenobi demonstrated himself much better against strong opponents. I think it was pointless of me to bring strength argument. Kenobi's ability to defend better against much stronger opponents is demonstration of his skill, not bigger strength.


Script doesn't prove anything as it contradicts films. Better lets agree that Dooku was taken by surprice like everyone else. No one fought such a strong opponent before.


Lol. You reminded me of half-life, where you pick up medpacks to revitalize yourself a few times.


Opress' Force enhanced strength is above everyone. Anakin was driven back by his strength as well.
Anakin's ability to crush droids is irrelevant, during saber swings muscles at shoulder level are used, which are from flesh, his attacks are steonger only because of extra weight from metal.

No one could equal Opress' strength. Just in case I will remind you that you don't need to be as strong to block attacks of stronger opponents. Consider example of Kenobi stalemating Opress and Maul. His hands were straight, so most pressure was coming onto his wrists. They had enough strength to overower his muscles but not enough to break his wrists.

Originally posted by Arhael

Lol. You reminded me of half-life, where you pick up medpacks to revitalize yourself a few times.

It's the advert for Lucozade as well


Originally posted by Arhael
Opress' Force enhanced strength is above everyone. Anakin was driven back by his strength as well.


But remember that was a rage enhanced Opress and Anakin was likely holding back on his rage since he was fighting alongside Obi-Wan. Anakin is supposed to have the most raw power in the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael


Script doesn't prove anything as it contradicts films. Better lets agree that Dooku was taken by surprice like everyone else. No one fought such a strong opponent before.




The script/novel do not contradict the film when taking editing/cutaways into account.

Remember it has to be a direct contradiction in order to be rendered non-canon, and only the part that directly contradicts the film is affected by this.

Yes. But all Opress' disarming feats were non raged. And who said Opress' strength is not Force enhanced? He does it like everyone else.
Anakin is stronger than Kenobi and Dooku but mostly because of his atlethic body and his metal arm. But that still doesn't compare to Opress. Dooku with good posture could stalemate in saber lock even angered Anakin in RotS.
Dooku knew that Opress is strong and still got knocked off feat. Kenobi dealed with him twice before and still on blocking first attack he screamed out, stagered back and got disarmed as well.

Superior raw power doesn't give superior strength and Force attacks. Dooku and especially Kenobi proved it. Greater power gives superior reserves. Even Marek couldn't overpower anyone in normal circumstances and was outskilling instead.
Look at Dorsk 82. Because he could access Force reserves of other Jedi he was drawing on the Force heavier and heavier without getting exhausted to the point that he pushed 14 Star Destroyers out of Yavin system.

Kenobi and Anakin stalemated each other because their Force mastery was equal, however, if not Force explosion, Kenobi's reserves would finish up much faster. Similarly Luke was getting exhausted after every contest with Abeloth, yet, she could never overpower him. In final contest Luke tanked her lightning and outwrestled her but without Krayt who pierced a hole in her stomach through which her power leached out Luke would just get exhausted and lose.

Originally posted by Arhael

Dooku knew that Opress is strong and still got knocked off feat. Kenobi dealed with him twice before and still on blocking first attack he screamed out, stagered back and got disarmed as well.

Hey I thought we agreed they wern't properly ready/braced for his strength!

Originally posted by Arhael
Superior raw power doesn't give superior strength

That's the reason Anakin was much stronger than Obi-Wan and Dooku wasn't it?? At least when enraged anyway. Even calm I'd say he's a bit stronger than those 2 which is mainly due to his raw power, but probably also aided by his physique and cyborg arm.


Opress' strength is obviously Physical and Force Enhanced. Perhaps in terms of just "strength" he might be equal to or superior to Anakin.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The script/novel do not contradict the film when taking editing/cutaways into account.

Remember it has to be a direct contradiction in order to be rendered non-canon, and only the part that directly contradicts the film is affected by this.

Yes the ROTS scripted version of the Dooku vs Anakin/Obi-Wan fight is pretty much exactly the same as the on screen version. So if the script says Dooku was getting tired, then that's that.

Yes. They weren't ready because they never learned to fight someone as strong as him.
It's like, when you constantly wrestle with guys of your strength, you develop certain tactic. But against much stronger opponent you would need to use very different tactic. And it is very possible to stalemate or outwrestle even much stronger guy.

Obvious change in tactic to counter Opress is to grip lightsaber much tighter than normally, deflect attacks sideways instead of blocking and rely more on dodging.

Also, with swords, if you can put your opponent on defensive, you will receive less strong attacks to deal with. That's what Kenobi did, when he used Jarkai, he put both Opress and Maul on defensive.


But he wasn't. Dooku with good posture could still stalemate him in saber lock. While Anakin struggled and was making straining sounds, Dooku was calm and talked with even voice.

And Anakin was overpowering Kenobi's hand very slowly, that's exact strength difference you would expect between two athletic people of different weight category.

Actually I now think that Anakin is not even stronger than Dooku. His attacks are strong because his style requires him to put full strength into attacks and extra weight in his arm gives his attacks more kinetic energy. And because of his superior power he can apply full strength without getting tired, while Dooku gets exhausted pretty quickly, that's what happened to Dooku each time.

Originally posted by Arhael



But he wasn't. Dooku with good posture could still stalemate him in saber lock. While Anakin struggled and was making straining sounds, Dooku was calm and talked with even voice.

And Anakin was overpowering Kenobi's hand very slowly, that's exact strength difference you would expect between two athletic people of different weight category.

Actually I now think that Anakin is not even stronger than Dooku. His attacks are strong because his style requires him to put full strength into attacks and extra weight in his arm gives his attacks more kinetic energy. And because of his superior power he can apply full strength without getting tired, while Dooku gets exhausted pretty quickly, that's what happened to Dooku each time.

Your forgetting one thing. Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. This is confirmed by the novel and the script. Just because Dooku and Obi-Wan have matched him in a Saber lock doesn't mean they are consistently as strong as him.

End of the day Obi-Wan has matched Maul and Opress in a Saber lock. Doesn't mean he's as strong as both of them combined!

True. It was increasing in responce to him getting angrier and angrier. Rage allowes Force users to draw heavier on the Force but that works for everyone the same way. And again Dooku and Kenobi knew about Opress' strength, yet, they couldn't defend adequatly against him. But Anakin never surpriced Dooku or Anakin with his strength, everyone could adequatly defend against him.


Also, true. It all can be argued either way.

Let me explain the reason behind my opinion.

For example, Luke stalemated plenty of far more powerful characters as well as got stalemated by plenty of characters with inferior power. There are plenty of characters with comparable or far more impressive than Luke's feats. My opinion is that he wins because of his skill and Force Mastery, not because he's got unfair Force potential advantage.
Same with Anakin. His was twice more powerful than Sidious but it never made him unfairly twice more capable in combat. Same for Marek, he legitimately outskilled every single opponent, not overpowered.

Now let me give you bulletproof evidence that Anakin doesn't compare to Opress in strength. Remember how both Anakin and Kenobi tried to restrain Opress by jumping on him from behind? Yes, he casually shrugged them off and he wasn't even boosted by rage. Now remember how Anakin tried to kill Kenobi's merderer who in fact was Kenobi himself? If yes, then you must remember how Kenobi restrained him from behind and choked him till unconsciousness despite Anakin clearly struggling to escape, being clearly enraged and as you said having proestetic hand that could crush droids.

Originally posted by Arhael


Now let me give you bulletproof evidence that Anakin doesn't compare to Opress in strength. Remember how both Anakin and Kenobi tried to restrain Opress by jumping on him from behind? Yes, he casually shrugged them off and he wasn't even boosted by rage.

True, but I would argue that Anakin's Jedi training restrains him more than Opress would restrain himself after being turned into a beast of rage by the nightsisters and then trained by Dooku to unleash that rage in combat.

Plus he was probably angered when he ended up killing the Toydarian King which he wasn't supposed to.


Originally posted by Arhael
Now remember how Anakin tried to kill Kenobi's merderer who in fact was Kenobi himself? If yes, then you must remember how Kenobi restrained him from behind and choked him till unconsciousness despite Anakin clearly struggling to escape, being clearly enraged and as you said having proestetic hand that could crush droids.

Of course Anakin was disadvantaged in thinking this was just some ordinary bounty hunter, whilst Obi-Wan knew who he was fighting and how to take him out.


Anyway I agree Opress will be stronger. His Physical strength alone is monstrous, let alone adding force enahnced strength to that.

But I honestly don't think a fully enraged Anakin would be far behind in strength. You've given valid examples of people dealing with Anakin, but let's not forget Obi-Wan parrying the combined power Maul and Opress.

Plus he was probably angered when he ended up killing the Toydarian King which he wasn't supposed to.
Thanks for reminding. Opress
choked the King, while Kenobi and Anakin tried to restrain him, that's how futile their attempt was.


I so want to agree with you because it would overhype Kenobi combat prowess even more than it is already. But nah, I prefer to see Anakin as someone who dominates others because of exceptional skill, not because of unfair advantage like Opress.


It's all about physics.
For exanple, in gym proffessional power lifters of Kenobi's weight category on a bench can push over 170kg. However, the same guys won't be able to push downward more than 40-50kg, unless they sit down on that thing , simply because they have nothing to push against apart from their body weight.

Same situation here. Kenobi could push against a wall to utilize his whole strength effectively, while Opress and Maul couldn't. Although, Force users can use the Force to root themselves in one place, still I don't think that Opress was skilled enough to do that and still unlike them Kenobi could focus whole power into his muscles.

When I talk about Yoda's limitations, I point out at the same problem. He is not only much weaker physically but because of lack of weight and attacking in air he can't effectively utilize his Force enhanced strength either. For the same reason I laugh, when people claim that Yoda overpowered Sidious in saber lock.

Originally posted by Arhael
Thanks for reminding. Opress
choked the King, while Kenobi and Anakin tried to restrain him, that's how futile their attempt was.

Lol point I was making was he was clearly wasn't restraining himself or his rage like Anakin was.


Originally posted by Arhael
But nah, I prefer to see Anakin as someone who dominates others because of exceptional skill, not because of unfair advantage like Opress.



But that's the whole point of the Chosen One isn't it? That he has an unfair advantage due to his exceptional raw power which is beyond even Yoda or Sidious??

This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation

And even Mace Windu later states "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive.."

That's the reason he was forcing Obi-Wan back the whole fight, because of how strong he was due to his raw power. His skill set was said to be Equal to Kenobi's.

Yes, agree. I guess I am trying draw too many parallels with Luke. Luke normally never relied on his superior power and was outskilling his opponents without need to tire them up. Post DE because of that his Force reserves became ridiculously small for very long period. And in FotJ a Sith Master and Vestara couldn't outskill even Force exhausted Luke, which shows that it wasn't superior potential that made Luke so good.

Still in RotS and especially CW it didn't look like Dooku got tired to the point that his performance decreased. Imho Anakin outskilled him plain and square.

By the way in fight with Kenobi it looked like Anakin got exhausted after all because towards the end Kenobi could defend against him without being driven back. Kenobi completely mitigated Anakin's unfair advantage.

Just thought about mechanics of fight and actually Kenobi had reasonable chance to outlast Anakin. Anakin used full strength just to swing lightsaber, you can get tired even by swinging at empty air but Kenobi spent energy only for blocking. Another important factor is that Soresu practitioners keep lightsaber close around their body, it is done to intercept attacks closer to hilt to spend less strength on blocking. So while Anakin was twice more powerful, Kenobi spent twice less energy.