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So what I'm trying to do is figure out just how damn powerful the Z fighters became later on in the series (Cell and Buu sagas primarily) by using canon info...


Okay, during the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament, Jackie Chun(Roshi) possessed a PL of 180:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14411568_1.jpg

And he was capable of vaporizing the moon with a maximum power Kamehameha:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411596/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p097.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411599/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p099.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411603/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p100.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411606/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p101.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411609/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p102.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411612/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch052_p104.png.html

---

During the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta possessed a PL of 18,000:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14411572_2.jpg

And was capable of destroying the earth with his full power Galick Gun:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411580/chap233i03.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411583/chap233i04.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411586/chap233i06.jpg.html

---

During the Frieza Saga, base form Frieza possessed a PL of 530,000:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14412426_3.jpg

And stated that in his base form he easily destroyed the entire Saiyan race, along with the Saiyan home world:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411589/DB296-02.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411592/DB296-03.jpg.html

---

Fast-forward to the Cell Saga, and Perfect Cell possessed a PL of 4 billion(pre-Jesus resurrection):
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14411577_4.jpg

And stated that he wielded enough power to destroy the entire solar system(post-Jesus resurrection):
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412192/350704.gif.html

---

Super Buu possessed a PL of 32 billion:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14412190_5.jpg

And was able to blow holes through dimensional walls with the power of his breath alone:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412195/410713.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412196/410801.gif.html

---

Anyway, if a PL of 18,000 is capable of destroying an entire world, does that mean Perfect Cell(PL=4 billion) wielded enough power to destroy the earth more than 200,000 times over? Does that mean Super Buu(PL=32 billion) wielded enough power to destroy the earth almost 2 million times over?

If that is in fact how DBZ power scaling works, then where would that put characters like SSJ2 Gohan? SSJ3 Gotenks? Mystic Gohan? Buu(/w/ Gohan), Vegito, etc.?

---

Ah hell, here's a quick theory on Vegito's power, but it results in a number that seems far too vast to be real...

As of the Cell Saga, SSJ Goku possessed a PL of 3 billion:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14412453_6.jpg

Per the Daizenshuu, fusions work more like multiplication rather than addition--- this means Vegito's cumulative power would have been like multiplying Goku's PL by Vegeta's PL. The Daizenshuu also states that a SSJ2 is 2x more powerful than a SSJ1:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412454/SaiyanFusion_PLs.jpg.html
(In the Buu saga, both Goku and Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2.)

Regardless, lets just assume that each of their PL's was 3 billion during the Buu saga(which is an extremely conservative estimate.) 3,000,000,000*3,000,000,000=9.e+18, which means SSJ Vegito would have wielded enough power to destroy the earth 500,000,000,000,000 times over! And if Vegito transformed into a SSJ2(which can be argued) then the above figures would be DOUBLED!

But like I said: a PL of that magnitude seems WAY too vast to be real... Even though it is based on canon info, it is extremely hard to believe a being THAT powerful existed in the DBZ-verse.





Anyway, I'd just like to get a general consensus here. Does my power scaling method fit, or is it way off? What do you guys think?

Broly wins

Originally posted by juggerman
Broly wins



Oh man...I laughed pretty hard.


Originally posted by Galan007
So what I'm trying to do is figure out just how damn powerful the Z fighters became later on in the series (Cell and Buu sagas primarily) by using canon info...


Okay, during the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament, Jackie Chun(Roshi) possessed a PL of 180:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14411568_1.jpg

And he was capable of vaporizing the moon with a maximum power Kamehameha:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411596/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p097.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411599/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p099.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411603/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p100.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411606/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p101.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411609/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch051_p102.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411612/Dragon_Ball_v04_ch052_p104.png.html

---

During the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta possessed a PL of 18,000:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14411572_2.jpg

And was capable of destroying the earth with his full power Galick Gun:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411580/chap233i03.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411583/chap233i04.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411586/chap233i06.jpg.html

---

During the Frieza Saga, base form Frieza possessed a PL of 530,000:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14412426_3.jpg

And stated that in his base form he easily destroyed the entire Saiyan race, along with the Saiyan home world:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411589/DB296-02.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14411592/DB296-03.jpg.html

---

Fast-forward to the Cell Saga, and Perfect Cell possessed a PL of 4 billion(pre-Jesus resurrection):
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14411577_4.jpg

And stated that he wielded enough power to destroy the entire solar system(post-Jesus resurrection):
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412192/350704.gif.html

---

Super Buu possessed a PL of 32 billion:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14412190_5.jpg

And was able to blow holes through dimensional walls with the power of his breath alone:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412195/410713.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412196/410801.gif.html

---

Anyway, if a PL of 18,000 is capable of destroying an entire world, does that mean Perfect Cell(PL=4 billion) wielded enough power to destroy the earth more than 200,000 times over? Does that mean Super Buu(PL=32 billion) wielded enough power to destroy the earth almost 2 million times over?

If that is in fact how DBZ power scaling works, then where would that put characters like SSJ2 Gohan? SSJ3 Gotenks? Mystic Gohan? Buu(/w/ Gohan), Vegito, etc.?

---

Ah hell, here's a quick theory on Vegito's power, but it results in a number that seems far too vast to be real...

As of the Cell Saga, SSJ Goku possessed a PL of 3 billion:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/14412453_6.jpg

Per the Daizenshuu, fusions work more like multiplication rather than addition--- this means Vegito's cumulative power would have been like multiplying Goku's PL by Vegeta's PL. The Daizenshuu also states that a SSJ2 is 2x more powerful than a SSJ1:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412454/SaiyanFusion_PLs.jpg.html
(In the Buu saga, both Goku and Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2.)

Regardless, lets just assume that each of their PL's was 3 billion during the Buu saga(which is an extremely conservative estimate.) 3,000,000,000*3,000,000,000=9.e+18, which means SSJ Vegito would have wielded enough power to destroy the earth 500,000,000,000,000 times over! And if Vegito transformed into a SSJ2(which can be argued) then the above figures would be DOUBLED!

But like I said: a PL of that magnitude seems WAY too vast to be real... Even though it is based on canon info, it is extremely hard to believe a being THAT powerful existed in the DBZ-verse.





Anyway, I'd just like to get a general consensus here. Does my power scaling method fit, or is it way off? What do you guys think?


Dude, where are you getting those scans that show Power Level's in the billions?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Dude, where are you getting those scans that show Power Level's in the billions? I've always referenced this guide:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14413009/All_Character_PLs.jpg.html

I think the reason Toriyama stopped using power levels, with the exception of Babidi's version of it, is because the numbers were getting ridiculous.

As for that list, If ssj3 Gokou is 24 million, and ssj3 is 4x that of ssj2 like it's suppose to be which is 2x that of ssj. wouldn't that make Gokou the same level he was in Cell Saga at base and ssj in the Buu Saga? Or am I completely wrong?

Originally posted by Galan007
I've always referenced this guide:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14413009/All_Character_PLs.jpg.html

Is that legit?

I have never seen that.


Also, ChiChi....rocks! I knew she was strong.


But there are several characters missing. Where is Super Gohan (Mystic)? Where is SSJ2 Gohan? Where is SSJ3 Goku? What about resurrected Cell? What about trained up Piccolo that came out of the HBTC (Goku said he was a lot stronger...but still not enough to take on Perfect Cell)?


Also, if this is legit, then that settles the argument of who is stronger: Frieza or King Cold. Clearly, Frieza is stronger. His mecha form was supposed to be significantly stronger, as well.


Originally posted by Kento
As for that list, If ssj3 Gokou is 24 million, and ssj3 is 4x that of ssj2 like it's suppose to be which is 2x that of ssj. wouldn't that make Gokou the same level he was in Cell Saga at base and ssj in the Buu Saga? Or am I completely wrong?

If you're still assuming that SSJ is a x50 bump...(I also assume you meant billion).



Let us try:


24,000,000,000/4/2/50=60,000,000


So, no. His original SSJ form, when first attained, is still roughly 3x as powerful as his base form by the time he is able to reach the SSJ3 state.


However, the FPSSJ state is much much stronger than his first SSJ state...so I think that throws everything out of whack.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Is that legit?

I have never seen that. Its from one of the Daizenshu I believe.


Originally posted by dadudemon

If you're still assuming that SSJ is a x50 bump...(I also assume you meant billion).



Let us try:


24,000,000,000/4/2/50=60,000,000


So, no. His original SSJ form, when first attained, is still roughly 3x as powerful as his base form by the time he is able to reach the SSJ3 state.


However, the FPSSJ state is much much stronger than his first SSJ state...so I think that throws everything out of whack. Yes I meant billion haha. And I mean if the Gokou that link shows in ssj at 3 billion is during the Cell Games, wouldn't that mean that in those 7 years Gokou didn't get any stronger.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Is that legit?

I have never seen that. Unfortunately, I don't know where it was published. However, I have never seen a reason to question its legitimacy(especially since all of the PLs up to the Frieza saga coincide with every other PL guide I've ever seen.)

And in the Buu Saga, Babidi stated that Yakon's power registered at 800 kilis, and SSJ Goku(before powering up as a SSJ) registered at 3,000 kilis:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14415416/380603.gif.html
And as I said, after that initial kili reading, Goku powered up more.

So even though it was never stated exactly what a "kili" is, it is very coincidental that, per the guide I posted, Yakon's PL is 800,000,000, and SSJ Goku's is 3 billion. Based on that, 1 kili=a PL of 1 million. That fits too well to be untrue, imo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But there are several characters missing. Where is Super Gohan (Mystic)? Where is SSJ2 Gohan? Where is SSJ3 Goku? What about resurrected Cell? What about trained up Piccolo that came out of the HBTC (Goku said he was a lot stronger...but still not enough to take on Perfect Cell)? I wish they were listed, but beggars can't be choosers.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, if this is legit, then that settles the argument of who is stronger: Frieza or King Cold. Clearly, Frieza is stronger. His mecha form was supposed to be significantly stronger, as well. It really depends whether or not you think King Cold was capable of transforming into any further forms. If he was capable of transforming, then he likely would have become vastly more powerful than Frieza, considering the PL of his first transformed state was nearly 90x more powerful than Frieza's first transformed state.

...But as we saw them, Frieza>>Cold.

Originally posted by Galan007
And in the Buu Saga, Babidi stated that Yakon's power registered at 800 kilis, and SSJ Goku(before powering up as a SSJ) registered at 3,000 kilis:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14415412/380602.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14415416/380603.gif.html
And as I said, after that initial kili reading, Goku powered up more.
. Yea, cause that's when we first see him go ssj2.

I'll elaborate on this later.

Originally posted by Astner
Anyway my point is that it's not difficult to do, you simply have to explain what you mean by power. My question is simple:
We know that a PL of 18,000 is sufficient to destroy a planet(which makes sense given that Roshi, with a PL of 180, destroyed the moon.)

So if a PL of 18,000 is enough to destroy the earth, then what scale of damage would a PL of 4 billion(for example) be able to cause? From my point of view, Cell's boast that he could destroy the entire solar system was likely quite accurate.

Originally posted by Galan007
My question is simple:
We know that a PL of 18,000 is sufficient to destroy a planet(which makes sense given that Roshi, with a PL of 180, destroyed the moon.)

So if a PL of 18,000 is enough to destroy the earth, then what scale of damage would a PL of 4 billion(for example) be able to cause? From my point of view, Cell's boast that he could destroy the entire solar system was likely quite accurate.

If 180 can vaporize the moon in a second, then you don't need that much more to destroy the planet. Unless "destroy" has to be "vaporized in a second."

I explained this in the other thread. You'd be able to produce (4⋿9/1.8⋿4)^2.2 + res. Where res is the residual, which in this case is value greater than 0.

So Cell would be able to pump out at least 5.84⋿11 times more energy than Vegeta.

For comparison, going by gravitational binding energy it takes 1.02⋿9 times more energy to destroy the sun than it does to destroy the earth. So he should be able to do with ease. Especially since earth is proportionally reenforced by stronger chemical bindings than the sun.

Originally posted by Robtard
If 180 can vaporize the moon in a second, then you don't need that much more to destroy the planet. Unless "destroy" has to be "vaporized in a second." This is what I think of when the phrase 'planet busting' comes to mind:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14417472/1.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14417473/2.jpg.html
Essentially the planet is reduced to rubble.

Originally posted by Astner
I explained this in the other thread. You'd be able to produce (4⋿9/1.8⋿4)^2.2 + res. Where res is the residual, which in this case is value greater than 0.

So Cell would be able to pump out at least 5.84⋿11 times more energy than Vegeta.

For comparison, going by gravitational binding energy it takes 1.02⋿9 times more energy to destroy the sun than it does to destroy the earth. So he should be able to do with ease. Especially since earth is proportionally reenforced by stronger chemical bindings than the sun. I think I read this post before.

Originally posted by Galan007
Per the Daizenshuu, fusions work more like multiplication rather than addition--- this means Vegito's cumulative power would have been like multiplying Goku's PL by Vegeta's PL. The Daizenshuu also states that a SSJ2 is 2x more powerful than a SSJ1:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14412454/SaiyanFusion_PLs.jpg.html
(In the Buu saga, both Goku and Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2.)

Regardless, lets just assume that each of their PL's was 3 billion during the Buu saga(which is an extremely conservative estimate.) 3,000,000,000*3,000,000,000=9.e+18, which means SSJ Vegito would have wielded enough power to destroy the earth 500,000,000,000,000 times over! And if Vegito transformed into a SSJ2(which can be argued) then the above figures would be DOUBLED! holy shit! that is unreal amounts of power. hard to even grasp.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
holy shit! that is unreal amounts of power. hard to even grasp. It really is.

If 2 beings who each possess a PL of 1,000,000 engage in a proper Potara fusion then, per the Daizenshuu, the end result would theoretically possess a PL of 1 TRILLION(1,000,000*1,000,000=1,000,000,000,000.) So if the individual beings were to already possess PLs in the billions(which Goku and Vegeta did), then I can totally understand the hesitation in accepting what the Daizenshuu states, as the PL of that fusion would be lulz-worthy high.

Also keep in mind that Potara fusion isn't a surefire path to vast power. The individuals who fuse have to be a good fit, otherwise the end result may actually be weaker than the individual components. /shrug

So galan in comic tier terms what level would you put the likes of Vegito?

If Vegeto's power level truly was Vegeta's PL x Goku's PL, then he'd be nearly unquantifiable in comic book terms.

Power levels were dropped in the manga for a reason.

Originally posted by Kento
Yes I meant billion haha. And I mean if the Gokou that link shows in ssj at 3 billion is during the Cell Games, wouldn't that mean that in those 7 years Gokou didn't get any stronger.


I think I see what you mean.


3 Billion * 2 * 4 = 24,000,000,000


Yes. That is exactly what that means: no power increase. I guess that's why that scan can't be right/is non-canon. I suspected it was non-canon when I saw it. The Dragonball wiki, where the biggest and nerdiest fans keep up to date, don't list that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think I see what you mean.


3 Billion * 2 * 4 = 24,000,000,000


Yes. That is exactly what that means: no power increase. I guess that's why that scan can't be right/is non-canon. I suspected it was non-canon when I saw it. The Dragonball wiki, where the biggest and nerdiest fans keep up to date, don't list that. Considering how well the kili reading Babidi gave us(Yakon=800, Goku=3,000) matches up with the PLs listed in that guide(Yakon=800 million, Goku= 3 billion---ie. 1 kili=1 million), I am quite confident now that the PL given for SSJ Goku is from the Buu Saga, not the Cell Saga. In the Cell Saga it was alluded to (in both the anime and the manga) that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku-- yet the guide still credits Goku as being more powerful. Why else would it credit Goku as more powerful unless that is SSJ Goku from the Buu Saga? After all, we know that Goku became more powerful during this time, while Gohan became less powerful. Additionally, the bottom row of the guide which lists SSJ kid Gohan, SSJ Vegeta and Cell also lists Super Buu, SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks(a mixture of characters from both sagas.)

And btw, I found that guide on the DB wiki.

http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=fake

xD That sight says it's fake. BUT on the other hand if it is, the person who did it does do the multipliers well and had to put some effort into it. But also if the kili thing is right, then Freeza couldn't destroy a planet. Cause you'd need 300 Million.

Originally posted by Kento
http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=fake

xD That sight says it's fake. BUT on the other hand if it is, the person who did it does do the multipliers well and had to put some effort into it. Hm, essentially the basis for that site calling the guide fake is that it was geared more towards adults(from a literary standpoint) than kids, and it had some minor wording differences? Seems like they're nitpicking a bit, imo. We know all of the PLs up to the Frieza saga are correct because they can be confirmed by other sources--- whereas we have no way to compare the other PLs referenced, because no other guide that I've seen references PLs beyond the Frieza saga. However, even if you just use logical estimations based on what we know and what we saw, the PLs in that guide would be extremely accurate.

What throws me off is that the guide was definitely published in some sort of physical book/magazine/manga, as it looks like someone took a picture of the page itself, or crudely scanned it. Regardless, even if that guide is fake, I still see no reason to doubt the validity of the values it displays. /shrug

Originally posted by Kento
But also if the kili thing is right, then Freeza couldn't destroy a planet. Cause you'd need 300 Million. The "300 kilis is required to destroy a planet" comment that Dabura made in the anime isn't in the manga. Therefore it is a non-canon comment.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, essentially the basis for that site calling the guide fake is that it was geared more towards adults(from a literary standpoint) than kids, and it had some minor wording differences? Seems like they're nitpicking a bit, imo. We know all of the PLs up to the Frieza saga are correct because they can be confirmed by other sources--- whereas we have no way to compare the other PLs referenced, because no other guide that I've seen references PLs beyond the Frieza saga. However, even if you just use logical estimations based on what we know and what we saw, the PLs in that guide would be extremely accurate.

What throws me off is that the guide was definitely published in some sort of physical book/magazine/manga, as it looks like someone took a picture of the page itself, or crudely scanned it. Regardless, even if that guide is fake, I still see no reason to doubt the validity of the values it displays. /shrug

The "300 kilis is required to destroy a planet" comment that Dabura made in the anime isn't in the manga. Therefore it is a non-canon comment. They also have the power level guide from the Daizenshuu 7 on that sight though. Which only really covers up to Freeza saga, but has the multipliers for the ssj forms.

Also even if Daburas line is non-canon Daizenshuu 7 says 300 kili can destroy 2 planets.

Originally posted by Kento
They also have the power level guide from the Daizenshuu 7 on that sight though. Which only really covers up to Freeza saga Yeah, I've seen those guides. They don't really help here, as the guide I posted mirrors them perfectly.

Originally posted by Kento
but has the multipliers for the ssj forms. Yup, as well as the multiplier for Potara fusions--- I posted that stuff in the OP.

According to the Daizenshuu, a Potara fusion is like multiplying PLs together, rather then simply adding them. According to that info, if the 2 beings fusing each had a PL of 1 million(a completely insignificant PL in the Buu era), the complete fusion would have a PL of 1,000,000,000,000(1 million*1 million=1 trillion.)

Now imagine if the 2 beings each started with a base PL of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS, and/or BILLIONS(as Buu era Vegeta and Goku did.) Imagine the PL THAT fusion(Vegito) would have. Insane.

Originally posted by Kento
Also even if Daburas line is non-canon Daizenshuu 7 says 300 kili can destroy 2 planets. It does? I've never seen that.

Power level means absolutely nothing considering there is no base for it.

^ More or less. After the Frieza saga power levels became a thing of the past because the Z fighters simply became too strong. All we can do if we want to gauge PLs post-Frieza saga is either use the guide posted earlier(which seems to be very accurate, imo), or come up with self-made approximations based on the last PLs stated in the Daizenshuu, and work up from there(which is what the guide appears to do anyway.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Now imagine if the 2 beings each started with a base PL of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS, and/or BILLIONS(as Buu era Vegeta and Goku did.) Imagine the PL THAT fusion(Vegito) would have. Insane.

It does? I've never seen that. Which is weird that GohanxGoku would've been weaker than Vegetto was.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Kili
http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-worldview.php#part5

That's about all the proof I can really find for the Kili thing.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Power levels were dropped in the manga for a reason.

I disagree with this, powerlevels were dropped randomly, reason had nothing to do with it 131

Originally posted by Kento
Which is weird that GohanxGoku would've been weaker than Vegetto was.

How would Goku fusing with a guy about a million times stronger that Vegeta produce a weaker fighter?

I am quite certain that the scan that you posted, Galan, is not official/fake.

Originally posted by juggerman


How would Goku fusing with a guy about a million times stronger that Vegeta produce a weaker fighter? The old Kaioshin stated that Vegetto being made up of rivals is what made the fusion so much more powerful. Gokou and Gohan wouldn't have became as powerful.

The Old Kaioshin was retarded.

Maybe the Fusion of rivals made them more powerful that what they should have been but there is no way Goku and Vegeta would have made a more powerful fighter than Goku and (No unfused being can ever surpass my ridiculous power) Gohan.

Imagine...ChiChi and Bulma...

They'd have no choice but to just become polygamists.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Imagine...ChiChi and Bulma...

They'd have no choice but to just become polygamists. what would Chichi have done if her son and husband had fused forever?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I am quite certain that the scan that you posted, Galan, is not official/fake. It's possible, but I've yet to find a source that discredits it with anything other than opinion(which isn't sufficient proof.)

Like I said, it appears to have been published in a book/manga of some sort... Just don't know what book/manga. I totally agree with all of the values listed, though. They're perfectly logical.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's possible, but I've yet to find a source that discredits it with anything other than opinion(which isn't sufficient proof.)

The only source you need is me: I say it is fake.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said, it appears to have been published in a book/manga of some sort... Just don't know what book/manga. I totally agree with all of the values listed, though. They're perfectly logical.

It is not logical: it is illogical. Kento found the fatal flaw: Goku did not improve his base-level at all over 7 years while in otherworld.


It is a pretty good fake...but they failed on their numbers towards the end. Matching it up with kili's is the second fatal flaw: that is not how "kilis" work as they are a different measuring system. Goku is supposedly at 3000 kilis yet 300 are required to blow up a planet: where does that power come from for Roshi and Vegeta who both could destroy planet sized stuff at power levels far less than 3,000,000,000?

Originally posted by Kento
what would Chichi have done if her son and husband had fused forever?

Well...Gohan probably kept his mother "company" in some doujins, no doubt. Rule 34 says it exists.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is not logical: it is illogical. Kento found the fatal flaw: Goku did not improve his base-level at all over 7 years while in otherworld. Only if you assume that was SSJ Goku's PL during the Cell saga. How do you know it wasn't meant to be his PL during the Buu saga?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Goku is supposedly at 3000 kilis yet 300 are required to blow up a planet True. The kili comparison I mentioned being incorrect doesn't disprove the PL's in that guide, though. Just saying.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Goku is supposedly at 3000 kilis yet 300 are required to blow up a planet
What part of it's not a linear measurement do you people not understand?

110 dB contains twice as much energy as 100 dB. Another non-linear relation is of the speed of an object and its kinetic energy. There aren't uncommon scales.

Originally posted by Astner
What part of it's not a linear measurement do you people not understand?

False: Gohan in his out-of-shape SSJ2 state filled up the meter past half. Vegeta, in a SSJ2 state that was much stronger than Gohan's SSJ2 state, still stood no chance.

Frieza was 120m and Goku 150m: they were fairly evenly matched.

Cell could supposedly destroy the whole solar system with a full-powered Kamehameha. That's definitely way more than 300 kilis. \

The scale does not seem geometric.

To make it clearer, Vegeta seemed to be much closer to having as much power as Buu. And when the meter was filled, it was rather linear while being filled up...it wasn't geometric.

Originally posted by Galan007
Only if you assume that was SSJ Goku's PL during the Cell saga. How do you know it wasn't meant to be his PL during the Buu saga?

And yet, there's no way that Goku could be evenly matched with Cell unless it was relatively close to Cells...that's how.


Originally posted by Galan007
True. The kili comparison I mentioned being incorrect doesn't disprove the PL's in that guide, though. Just saying.

Actually, I think it, by itself, proves it is just a fan made fake.


Also, it is not on the dragonball wiki...I mean, it could be, but that community also rules it as a fake.



But that is that takes a backseat to the obvious language issues that make it clearly a fake.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The scale does not seem geometric.
In relation to what? Energy output?

Let me put this in terms you can wrap your head around. The average human has a power level of 5. Roshi had a power level of 139.

Originally posted by Astner
In relation to what? Energy output?

Let me put this in terms you can wrap your head around. The average human has a power level of 5. Roshi had a power level of 139.

And Roshi certainly seemed much more powerful than the average human.

Also, Roshi peaked at around...what....180?


But let me put it into terms you might be able to wrap your head around:

x*1.3 or even x^1.02 doesn't really work as a growth.


Maybe if you said, "it is a complex system with limits and jumps as the power progresses" then, yes, I would have not choice but to agree because that model would best fit the jumps observed on the meter for kilis.

For instance, 0-500 kilis is a step function for all power levels less than 1,000,000. 501-1000 is for all power levels from 1,000,001-1,000,000,000. 1001-2000 is for power levels 1,000,000,001-2,000,000,00. 2001-3000 is for power levels 2,000,000,001-4,000,000,000.


That is just one additional interpretation that fits better than a geometric growth and a linear growth model. There could be a complex system between each step function that arrives at a number between those margins, of course: a different geometric growth model for each step.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And Roshi certainly seemed much more powerful than the average human.

Also, Roshi peaked at around...what....180?


But let me put it into terms you might be able to wrap your head around:

x*1.3 or even x^1.02 doesn't really work as a growth.
Actually they do. They're monotonically increasing bijective functions.

Originally posted by dadudemon
For instance, 0-500 kilis is a step function for all power levels less than 1,000,000.
Do you even know what a step function is? The unit step function is θ(x) = 1 for all x≥0, and θ(x) = 0 for all x<0, making the general expression for a step function aθ(x+b). What you're implying is that there aren't any Kiri values between 0 and 500.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That is just one additional interpretation that fits better than a geometric growth and a linear growth model.
You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There could be a complex system between each step function that arrives at a number between those margins, of course: a different geometric growth model for each step.
That's not a step function, what you're talking about is by defining functions on intervals. Something that's not required, and overall useless because you wouldn't be be able to compute the derivate (change) in given any point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And yet, there's no way that Goku could be evenly matched with Cell unless it was relatively close to Cells...that's how.Huh? As Cell demonstrated vs. SSJ2 Gohan, he had been holding back a vast amount of his power. Against everyone. The entire time. Fact is, Goku's power was nothing to Cell's during the Cell Games. They were not "evenly matched" by any means--- heck, Goku was literally awed by Cell's power when he fully powered up.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But that is that takes a backseat to the obvious language issues that make it clearly a fake. I wasn't aware that random people noticing slight differences in wording was enough to classify something as "fake"-- especially when the guide was very clearly published in some form of text(which makes it more valid than an average joe's online posts)...

Either way, it doesn't really matter to me if the guide is fake, I just haven't seen anything but personal opinion stating such--- and sorry, but that isn't enough to accurately invalidate published text. Imo.

Originally posted by Astner
Actually they do. They're monotonically increasing bijective functions.

Honestly, I thought monotonically increasing was different than bijective. Teach me: how can those be in the same function? Yes, I am serious...I am not being sarcastic.


Originally posted by Astner
Do you even know what a step function is? The unit step function is θ(x) = 1 for all x≥0, and θ(x) = 0 for all x<0, making the general expression for a step function aθ(x+b). What you're implying is that there aren't any Kiri values between 0 and 500.

Yeah, it works. In fact, the step function I used was very very simple: textbook example.


Originally posted by Astner
You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Actually, I do. It is fairly simple, to me.


Originally posted by Astner
That's not a step function, what you're talking about is by defining functions on intervals. Something that's not required, and overall useless because you wouldn't be be able to compute the derivate (change) in given any point.

Nah, it is a step function. I think you've been doing such high-level math that you forgot about the lower-level stuff.


Here's what a simple step function looks like:

http://www.icoachmath.com/images/sitemap/GIF-2.gif


Mine is pretty easy to graph, as well. Graph it yourself.

Originally posted by Galan007
Huh? As Cell demonstrated vs. SSJ2 Gohan, he had been holding back a vast amount of his power. Against everyone. The entire time. Fact is, Goku's power was nothing to Cell's during the Cell Games. They were not "evenly matched" by any means--- heck, Goku was literally awed by Cell's power when he fully powered up.

He was not in awe. It was more like admiration and he knew Cell could go there the whole time.

And, actually, had Goku known about Cell's trick, he would have won against cell due to his superior martial arts skills and strategy (the recovery thing).

Next, Cell could not have been vastly superior to Goku because Goku was evenly matched with Cell to the onlookers but Goku and Korin knew Cell was stronger.

Lastly, Gohan was getting tooled and Goku was doing decently, before Gohan was SSJ2. This tells us that Gohan's ASSJ state was weaker than Goku's. We know that (SSJ2) it is a x2 powerup so Cell falls in somewhere between 1.x times more powerful than Goku but less than 2x powerful than Goku.

Goku was about even with Frieza and he was 150,000,000 and Frieza was 120,000,000: so goku had to have been closer to Cell's power than 80% when they fought...much closer as Piccolo, IIRC, remarks that they were even. So with Cell's full power-up, which was stated as "slightly stronger", he still would not have been that much more powerful than Goku.

Originally posted by Galan007
I wasn't aware that random people noticing slight differences in wording was enough to classify something as "fake"-- especially when the guide was very clearly published in some form of text(which makes it more valid than an average joe's online posts)...

Then it is a good thing that that person was not "people" and that person was not just some random person.

Additionally, he did the same exact thing as a linguistic forensic specialist would do: hardly just random technique.

The simple fact that it lacks the branding mark, anywhere, immediately makes it suspect: all other charts like that have a branding mark.

The linguistic problems themselves destroy any hope that this was legit: no native speaker would make that many mistakes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, it doesn't really matter to me if the guide is fake, I just haven't seen anything but personal opinion stating such--- and sorry, but that isn't enough to accurately invalidate published text. Imo.

Here's the deal: I am a digital forensics expert (no, I am not kidding). Find the original and I will analyze the photo for you. I'm quite sure I can find problems with it having been Japanese.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Honestly, I thought monotonically increasing was different than bijective. Teach me: how can those be in the same function? Yes, I am serious...I am not being sarcastic.
Bijective means that it's one-to-one and existing, i.e. f(x) ≠ f(y) ∀x ≠ y with f(x), f(y) existing.

Monotonic increasing means that f(x) ≤ f(y) ∀x ≤ y.

Let's look at the first function you described.

f(x) = 1.3x, thus f(x) - f(y) = 1.3(x - y) is only zero when x = y, meaning that it's injective. Since f(x) exists for all real numbers x it's also surjective. Meaning that it's bijective.

f(x+d) - f(x) = 1.3d ≥ 0 for all d ≥ 0, and ≤ 0 for all d ≤ 0, meaning that it's monotonic.

So f(x) = 1.3x is both bijective and monotonic.
______________________________

For the next function f(x) = x^1.02, we have f(x) - f(y) = x^1.02 - y^1.02. Rewrite x = yz, we now have the relation y^1.02(z-1). This condition is only satisfied if either z = 1, in which case y∙1 = y = x, or if y = 0, in which case x = 0∙z = 0, in any case x = y. Meaning that it's injective. It' obviously surjective as f(x) exists for all x. Meaning that it's bijective.

f(x+d) - f(x) = (x+d)^1.02 - x^1.02 ≥ 0 for all d ≥ 0, and ≤ 0 for all d ≤ 0. Meaning that it's monotonic. Taylor expand (x+d)^1.02 if it's not obvious.

So f(x) = x^1.02 is monotonic increasing and bijective.

/Single variable analysis 101

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, it works. In fact, the step function I used was very very simple: textbook example.
Are you serious? You're saying that someone with a Kiri of 1 would be equal in power to someone of Kiri 499?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's what a simple step function looks like:

Mine is pretty easy to graph, as well. Graph it yourself.
Of you're referring to the ] relation, we don't refer to that as a step function. It's defined ] = y for all integers y so that y ≤ x < y+1.

But you defined a step from 0 Kiri to 500 Kiri, which is not only nonsensical but also not how the ]-relation work. What you're referring to is called a piecewise defined constant function, and it's still nonsensical in context.

Originally posted by Astner
Are you serious? You're saying that someone with a Kiri of 1 would be equal in power to someone of Kiri 499?

You're right: I meant piecewise function. Thanks.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He was not in awe. It was more like admiration and he knew Cell could go there the whole time.

And, actually, had Goku known about Cell's trick, he would have won against cell due to his superior martial arts skills and strategy (the recovery thing).

Next, Cell could not have been vastly superior to Goku because Goku was evenly matched with Cell to the onlookers but Goku and Korin knew Cell was stronger.

Lastly, Gohan was getting tooled and Goku was doing decently, before Gohan was SSJ2. This tells us that Gohan's ASSJ state was weaker than Goku's. We know that (SSJ2) it is a x2 powerup so Cell falls in somewhere between 1.x times more powerful than Goku but less than 2x powerful than Goku.

Goku was about even with Frieza and he was 150,000,000 and Frieza was 120,000,000: so goku had to have been closer to Cell's power than 80% when they fought...much closer as Piccolo, IIRC, remarks that they were even. So with Cell's full power-up, which was stated as "slightly stronger", he still would not have been that much more powerful than Goku. Again: Cell was vastly holding back against Goku throughout their entire battle. Goku was NEVER comparable to Cell, because Cell NEVER used all of his power against Goku.

In fact, by his own accord, Cell had lost a significant amount of energy during his battle with Goku. Despite this, he still urged Goku to eat a Senzu bean toward the end of the battle, so that their fight would become more evenly matched:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445465/db34pg085.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445467/db34pg087.gif.html
This means even at FULL POWER Goku was only comparable to a drastically WEAKENED Cell.

But again, none of that matters because Cell was holding back his true power the ENTIRE time, just for his own personal amusement(he is part Saiyan, after all.) He ONLY displayed the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445462/350103.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445463/350107.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445464/350108.gif.html

Trying to argue that Goku was comparable to an all out Cell is horribly illogical. Cell was vastly more powerful--- so powerful that Goku was helplessly incapable of bridging the power-gap between them... Only SSJ2 Gohan was capable of doing that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's the deal: I am a digital forensics expert (no, I am not kidding). Find the original and I will analyze the photo for you. I'm quite sure I can find problems with it having been Japanese. This side of the discussion has become stale. If you've had the ability to analyze the scan, then you should have done that right off the bat, and saved us all a headache.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again: Cell was vastly holding back against Goku throughout their entire battle. Goku was NEVER comparable to Cell, because Cell NEVER used all of his power against Goku.

In fact, by his own accord, Cell had lost a significant amount of energy during his battle with Goku. Despite this, he still urged Goku to eat a Senzu bean toward the end of the battle, so that their fight would become more evenly matched:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445465/db34pg085.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445467/db34pg087.gif.html
This means even at FULL POWER Goku was only comparable to a drastically WEAKENED Cell.

But again, none of that matters because Cell was holding back his true power the ENTIRE time, just for his own personal amusement(he is part Saiyan, after all.) He ONLY displayed the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445462/350103.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445463/350107.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445464/350108.gif.html


No, that means at full power, Goku was nearly evenly matched with a Cell that was holding back a bit.


Also, Perfect Cell was drastically weakened because a significant portion of his body was just vaporized in addition to expending tons of energy against Goku.


Originally posted by Galan007
Trying to argue that Goku was comparable to an all out Cell is horribly illogical. Cell was vastly more powerful--- so powerful that Goku was helplessly incapable of bridging the power-gap between them... Only SSJ2 Gohan was capable of doing that.

Incorrect: trying to argue that Perfect Cell was vastly more powerful than ASSJ Goku is horrible logic as I've explained and used examples. You have not addressed the bulk of my argument.




Originally posted by Galan007
This side of the discussion has become stale. If you've had the ability to analyze the scan, then you should have done that right off the bat, and saved us all a headache.

It only works if I have the original. Lots of data gets added and changed as the image is resaved, resized, different compression methods used (such as saving from a png to a jpg).

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, Perfect Cell was drastically weakened because a significant portion of his body was just vaporized in addition to expending tons of energy against Goku. ...Yet even in such a weakened state, Cell wanted Goku to eat a senzu bean so that their fight would become more evenly matched. So again: this means even at full power Goku only stood a "slight" chance against a vastly weakened Cell.

This was explicitly stated in the manga. Trying to argue against it is completely illogical, and holds no weight whatsoever.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect: trying to argue that Perfect Cell was vastly more powerful than ASSJ Goku is horrible logic as I've explained and used examples. You have not addressed the bulk of my argument. Your examples are meaningless in comparison to statements/actions from the manga itself. Cell WAS vastly more powerful than Goku, because even at full power Goku would have been hard-pressed to match a vastly WEAKENED Cell.

Aside from that, Cell never displayed the full extent of his power against Goku, he ONLY powered up to his max against SSJ2 Gohan. This, again, was explicitly stated in the manga.

Goku's power was nothing to Cell's. This is canon fact. Dunno why in the world you're trying to dispute the explicit evidence I've posted.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It only works if I have the original. Lots of data gets added and changed as the image is resaved, resized, different compression methods used (such as saving from a png to a jpg). Sorry, I don't know where I found the original. It's been too long.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Yet even in such a weakened state, Cell wanted Goku to eat a senzu bean so that their fight would become more evenly matched. So again: this means even at full power Goku only stood a "slight" chance against a vastly weakened Cell.

That is baseless speculation: nothing supports this argument. Here's what really was going on: Goku was virtually exhausted: on empty. Cell was not...but he was vastly depowered. In order for the fight to continue to be fun and interesting, Goku would need to go back to full. However, that would have been a fatal choice from the overconfident Cell.

Originally posted by Galan007
This was explicitly stated in the manga. Trying to argue against it is completely illogical, and holds no weight whatsoever.

It was not. You are using words that were not in the manga. Your words hold no weight because they are fiction.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your examples are meaningless in comparison to statements/actions from the manga itself. Cell WAS vastly more powerful than Goku, because even at full power Goku would have been hard-pressed to match a vastly WEAKENED Cell.

Then you contradict canon and are therefore wrong. My examples are canon examples. My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles.

Originally posted by Galan007
Aside from that, Cell never displayed the full extent of his power against Goku, he ONLY powered up to his max against SSJ2 Gohan. This, again, was explicitly stated in the manga.

Indeed and Goku knew he was holding back in addition to onlookers saying that Cell was evenly matched with Goku when they fought. This whole time, Goku knew Cell was stronger and holding back...and also knew that Cell was slightly stronger. Keyword: slightly.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku's power was nothing to Cell's.

Inorrect; they were fairly close in power, even when Cell showed his full power. That's a paraphrase of both Korin's and Goku's words.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is canon fact. Dunno why in the world you're trying to dispute the explicit evidence I've posted.


Mostly because you're using something false and trying to pass it off as canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, I don't know where I found the original. It's been too long.

You would not have found the original. You probably found a copy of a copy of a resize, of an edit, of a copy, of a different format.

This is getting old/circular... I've only got a few more posts in me before stop caring, so...

Originally posted by dadudemon
However, that would have been a fatal choice from the overconfident Cell. When was it so much as alluded to that it would have been a fatal choice for Cell to allow Goku to power back up? That's a rhetorical question because that wasn't stated. What was stated is that Cell WANTED Goku to regain his full strength so that the fight would be more evenly matched, and therefore more spectacular. Why would Cell WANT a closer fight, you ask? Because he's part Saiyan. End of story.

Assuming the theoretical fight between FP Goku and a weakened Cell would have been anything but an even match is purely your own speculation. Nothing on panel supports you. All evidence points to a WEAKENED Cell being equal to a full power Goku.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was not. You are using words that were not in the manga. Your words hold no weight because they are fiction. Everything I've stated can be referenced in the scans I posted above.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then you contradict canon and are therefore wrong. My examples are canon examples. My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? SSJ2 Gohan being more powerful than Cell has NOTHING to do with this discussion. Cell was a LOT more powerful than Goku. Their powers only *seemed* close because Cell was holding back a LOT of energy the entire time. It's really that simple. If you won't take my word for it, then look at the darn scans!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed and Goku knew he was holding back in addition to onlookers saying that Cell was evenly matched with Goku when they fought. This whole time, Goku knew Cell was stronger and holding back...and also knew that Cell was slightly stronger. Keyword: slightly. When was it stated (by anyone) that Cell, at full power, was only "slightly" more powerful than Goku?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Inorrect; they were fairly close in power, even when Cell showed his full power. That's a paraphrase of both Korin's and Goku's words. Scan please. I want to see the character statement that says Goku's power was close to full power Cell's.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mostly because you're using something false and trying to pass it off as canon. Again, everything I've stated can be referenced in the scans I posted above.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You would not have found the original. You probably found a copy of a copy of a resize, of an edit, of a copy, of a different format.

Originally posted by Galan007
When was it so much as alluded to that it would have been a fatal choice for Cell to allow Goku to power back up? That's a rhetorical question because that wasn't stated. What was stated is that Cell WANTED Goku to regain his full strength so that the fight would be more evenly matched, and therefore more spectacular. Why would Cell WANT a closer fight, you ask? Because he's part Saiyan. End of story.

No allusion: Goku and Cell were fairly evenly matched. Goku was drained, cell was vastly depowered. Cell was only slightly stronger than Goku.

Originally posted by Galan007
Assuming the theoretical fight between FP Goku and a weakened Cell would have been anything but an even match is purely your own speculation. Nothing on panel supports you. All evidence points to a WEAKENED Cell being equal to a full power Goku.

I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu. Goku has superior fighting techniques and abilities, however.

Nothing supports a greatly weakened Cell being equal to a full powered Goku. Cell and Goku were nearly even. Cell was holding back in his fight with Goku and they appeared dead even to onlookers.

Cell boasts that if Goku eats a Senzu, he might have a slight chance of winning:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html

Goku remarks that Cell has most of his ki left even though his was blown to bits:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c005/9.html



Originally posted by Galan007
Everything I've stated can be referenced in the scans I posted above.

Wrong: none of your main points were in the scans. You used information in the scans to make speculative points, not canon points.


Originally posted by Galan007
SSJ2 Gohan being more powerful than Cell has NOTHING to do with this discussion.

Incorrect and here's why:

"My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles."


Originally posted by Galan007
Cell was a LOT more powerful than Goku.

"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."


Originally posted by Galan007
Their powers only *seemed* close because Cell was holding back a LOT of energy the entire time. It's really that simple. If you won't take my word for it, then look at the darn scans!

Incorrect: he was holding back just a bit so he could be even with Goku. That "just a bit" was the difference between holding back and not holding back.

Originally posted by Galan007
When was it stated (by anyone) that Cell, at full power, was only "slightly" more powerful than Goku?

"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."

Originally posted by Galan007
Scan please. I want to see the character statement that says Goku's power was close to full power Cell's.

"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."


The burden of proof is on you to show that your supposed "Full Power" Cell state was excluded from Korin's and Goku's assessments.

If Cell were really holding back tremendously, he wouldn't have been vastly drained from their fight.

This will be my final post on this topic.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No allusion: Goku and Cell were fairly evenly matched. Goku was drained, cell was vastly depowered. Cell was only slightly stronger than Goku. Cell was holding back the entire time. What isn't computing here? Seriously, your 'points' entirely ignore what was shown on panel... This is getting dumb.

Here we see Cell finally(for the first time) tap into the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan...

-Cell-
"I'll show you the fearfulness of my full power.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523022/350103.gif.html

Begins powering up to max:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523023/350104.gif.html

-Goku-
"AT LAST Cell's going to show his full fighting power. It feels like it's going to destroy the whole world, that's an incredible ki!":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523024/350108.gif.html


That said, Cell and Goku only *appeared*(key word) to be evenly matched because Cell never displayed the full extent of his power during their fight. If he had, the fight wouldn't have been nearly as fun for him. That's why, even after becoming depowered, Cell still gave Goku the chance to eat a senzu before continuing. He wanted a good fight.

This isn't rocket science.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu. So now you're agreeing that full power Goku=weakened Cell? So confused.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Goku has superior fighting techniques and abilities, however. When was this stated?

The only 'advantage' Goku had was instantaneous movement(an ability Cell would later copy anyway.) As far as fighting technique goes, unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was a better fighter than Cell, then I will simply write off your statement as more unsubstantiated conjecture.

To the contrary, Vegeta stated that Cell was always "one or two steps AHEAD OF Goku":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nothing supports a greatly weakened Cell being equal to a full powered Goku. Cell and Goku were nearly even. Cell was holding back in his fight with Goku and they appeared dead even to onlookers. They were even. Why? Because Cell was holding back the entire time. Read the scans. It's right there in black and white. The ONLY person Cell displayed his full power against was SSJ2 Gohan. Read the scans.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Cell boasts that if Goku eats a Senzu, he might have a slight chance of winning:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.htmlThanks for reposting something I've already posted. A weakened Cell WANTED Goku to eat a senzu to make the fight more evenly matched--- and even then Cell stated Goku would only have a "slight" chance of winning.

A weakened Cell was roughly equal to a full power Goku. Deal.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Goku remarks that Cell has most of his ki left even though his was blown to bits:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c005/9.htmlCome on now. Don't purposefully leave out info just to help your point; that borders on trolling.

It was outright stated by both Cell and Goku that he lost quite a bit of power during their battle (Cell WAS holding back, after all)...

-Goku-
"You should have lost a lot of strength with that attack.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523062/db34pg076.gif.html

-Cell-
"I've lost an unexpected amount of strength. If you were back at full power you would have a slight chance of winning.":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html

Despite losing so much power, Cell still urges Goku to eat a senzu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523063/db34pg085.gif.html

So like I've been saying: a fully powered Goku only had a "SLIGHT" chance of beating a severely underpowered Cell-- which means that he logically had NO chance of beating a fully powered Cell. Again, this isn't rocket science.

Hell, even Roshi noted that Goku never had a chance...
"It certainly looks like a good fight BUT... Unlike Goku, Cell still looks fresh. GOKU CAN'T WIN. It looks to me like he's fighting in spite of that knowledge.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523219/db34pg084.gif.html


How many scans do I have to post to drive the point home?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect and here's why:

"My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles."Which is simply a red herring that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

SSJ2 Gohan>Cell>Goku. We already knew that stuff. Furthermore I've never said that the difference between Cell and Goku was the same difference that existed between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell. However, there was still a VAST difference between Goku and Cell--- at full power he was more than just "slightly" above Goku, like you've stated.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."

Incorrect: he was holding back just a bit so he could be even with Goku. That "just a bit" was the difference between holding back and not holding back.

"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."

"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."*insert facepalm gif here*

Unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was only "a bit" stronger than full power Cell, then I will simply write your statement off as more unsubstantiated conjecture.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The burden of proof is on you to show that your supposed "Full Power" Cell state was excluded from Korin's and Goku's assessments. "Unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was only "a bit" stronger than full power Cell, then I will simply write your statement off as more unsubstantiated conjecture."

Reposting is fun!

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Cell were really holding back tremendously, he wouldn't have been vastly drained from their fight. sure he would have.

cell held back against goku, he made himself roughly equal with goku actually. cell could have powered up at any time and easily beaten goku if he wanted to, but that isn't how cell was. cell had a saiyan mentality, he always wanted the best possible fight. that's why he allowed the z fighters to train before the cell games. that's why he kept pushing gohan until he transformed ss2, etc.

heh and the fact that it was stated that max power goku would have only had a slight chance of beating cell, even when cell was weakened, tells me all i need to know. galan is spot on. it isn't like he's spouting opinion, hes posted numerous manga pages that concrete what hes saying. whether you agree or not, theres no way to discredit the manga itself.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Power levels were dropped in the manga for a reason.

Exactly. Even when they were around, I doubt that Toriyama ever put that much thought into them.

If Cell were only barely stronger than Goku why did he let Gohan do all the work? He gave up because he knew Cell was superior. The intent of Akira was for Gohan to surpass his father. Cell is not only barely stronger than Goku gtfo of here with that.

Originally posted by Galan007
This will be my final post on this topic.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cell was holding back the entire time. What isn't computing here? Seriously, your 'points' entirely ignore what was shown on panel... This is getting dumb.

Here we see Cell finally(for the first time) tap into the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan...

-Cell-
"I'll show you the fearfulness of my full power.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523022/350103.gif.html

Begins powering up to max:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523023/350104.gif.html

-Goku-
"AT LAST Cell's going to show his full fighting power. It feels like it's going to destroy the whole world, that's an incredible ki!":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523024/350108.gif.html


That said, Cell and Goku only *appeared*(key word) to be evenly matched because Cell never displayed the full extent of his power during their fight. If he had, the fight wouldn't have been nearly as fun for him. That's why, even after becoming depowered, Cell still gave Goku the chance to eat a senzu before continuing. He wanted a good fight.

This isn't rocket science.

What part about Cell being slightly more powerful than Goku are you not getting? Cell made himself equal to Goku but he was still only slightly more powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
So now you're agreeing that full power Goku=weakened Cell? So confused.

No, this: "I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu."

Meaning: If the Cell that was weakened from having his arms and head blown off, who was holding back against Goku, fought a Goku that just took a Senzu bean, at that very moment, Goku would have been around that current Cell's all-out form. That's confusing as hell but just think of it this way: The Cell that boasted that Goku might have a slight chance of winning IF Goku took a senzu was boasting/talking out of his ass: Goku would have been stronger than Cell.

Originally posted by Galan007
When was this stated?

The only 'advantage' Goku had was instantaneous movement(an ability Cell would later copy anyway.) As far as fighting technique goes, unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was a better fighter than Cell, then I will simply write off your statement as more unsubstantiated conjecture.

To the contrary, Vegeta stated that Cell was always "one or two steps AHEAD OF Goku":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html

Simply because Goku was able to take on a Cell that had a myriad of genetically infused techniques and Goku stood up against them all and even defeated Cell in a fair fight. Had Goku known of Cell's ability to regen, he would have won that fight. It was Goku's experience and superior martial arts skills that allowed him to stand up to all of Cell's techniques. That is not unsubstantiated conjecture: that happened in the manga.





Originally posted by Galan007
They were even. Why? Because Cell was holding back the entire time.

This has never been disputed. Why make the same point so many times?

Originally posted by Galan007
Read the scans. It's right there in black and white. The ONLY person Cell displayed his full power against was SSJ2 Gohan. Read the scans.

This point is irrelevant: read my posts. "Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles."

Originally posted by Galan007
Thanks for reposting something I've already posted. A weakened Cell WANTED Goku to eat a senzu to make the fight more evenly matched--- and even then Cell stated Goku would only have a "slight" chance of winning.

"The Cell that boasted that Goku might have a slight chance of winning IF Goku took a senzu was boasting/talking out of his ass: Goku would have been stronger than Cell." and "Cell was talking out of his ass."

Originally posted by Galan007
A weakened Cell was roughly equal to a full power Goku. Deal.



A slightly weakened Cell was roughly equal to a full power Goku. Why? Because Goku was slightly weaker than Cell: stated on panel more than once. So if Cell was slightly weakened and Goku was in a full power state...here his the math:

Goku+slightly more power = Cell

Goku=Cell-slightly more power

That's pretty dang simple. Why does this not computer for you?


And, as I stated, Goku's experience and techniques would give him the win against a truly equal Cell.

Originally posted by Galan007
Come on now. Don't purposefully leave out info just to help your point; that borders on trolling.

Woah. What are you doing? I made one point, here. You cut up that section of my post and isolated just that one section and then pretended I was leaving out information.

Let's do this again: quote this entire section, take the main point from this entire section, and respond to that point:

"I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu. Goku has superior fighting techniques and abilities, however.

Nothing supports a greatly weakened Cell being equal to a full powered Goku. Cell and Goku were nearly even. Cell was holding back in his fight with Goku and they appeared dead even to onlookers.

Cell boasts that if Goku eats a Senzu, he might have a slight chance of winning:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/drag...34/c006/10.html

Goku remarks that Cell has most of his ki left even though his was blown to bits:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/drag...v34/c005/9.html"


That whole section is one point, not multiple. Don't cut it up and pretend I am leaving out information. That section basically says the following:


Goku+slightly more power = Cell

Goku=Cell-slightly more power

Originally posted by Galan007
It was outright stated by both Cell and Goku that he lost quite a bit of power during their battle (Cell WAS holding back, after all)...

-Goku-
"You should have lost a lot of strength with that attack.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523062/db34pg076.gif.html

-Cell-
"I've lost an unexpected amount of strength. If you were back at full power you would have a slight chance of winning.":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html

Despite losing so much power, Cell still urges Goku to eat a senzu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523063/db34pg085.gif.html

So like I've been saying: a fully powered Goku only had a "SLIGHT" chance of beating a severely underpowered Cell-- which means that he logically had NO chance of beating a fully powered Cell. Again, this isn't rocket science.

Hell, even Roshi noted that Goku never had a chance...
"It certainly looks like a good fight BUT... Unlike Goku, Cell still looks fresh. GOKU CAN'T WIN. It looks to me like he's fighting in spite of that knowledge.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523219/db34pg084.gif.html

That's a whole bunch of words just to make the same points I've been making. You're not supporting your case, at all: you're proving my point. You're indirectly admitting I am right. Look at what you've done: you looked up Roshi's words that supports my point that Cell was lowering his power to be equal to Goku. You pointed out another part where I was saying Cell lost power and a fully powered Goku would be equal (ignore Cell's boasting: Goku would have mopped the floor with that weakened version of Cell).

In other words: get your own points and stop making mine.

Originally posted by Galan007
Which is simply a red herring that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

SSJ2 Gohan>Cell>Goku. We already knew that stuff. Furthermore I've never said that the difference between Cell and Goku was the same difference that existed between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell. However, there was still a VAST difference between Goku and Cell--- at full power he was more than just "slightly" above Goku, like you've stated.

Well, if you think that is a red herring and has nothing to do with the topic at hand, you have not been paying attention even a little because that has been my main point from the very beginning.

ASSJ Gohan was weaker than ASSJ Goku as seen by how much Cell was wiping the floor with Gohan...and that version of Cell was holding back.

Because you're obviously getting lost:

ASSJ Gohan < ASSJ Goku < Perfect Cell

SSJ2 is a x2 power increase.

SSJ2 Gohan was wiping the floor with Cell quite severely. Much more so than Cell was ASSJ Gohan.

Do you follow, so far?

So you must ask yourself, how close was Goku to a fully powered Perfect Cell?

Well, they were equal because Cell was holding back. It was stated that Cell was slightly stronger. So Cell was slightly stronger despite him making it look like they were equal. These are all facts: you cannot dispute them nor will entertain any disputations of those facts.

So how low can we go in power, in terms of percentages, before it no longer appears to be equal? 80% appears to be the case. Why? 100% Frieza was roughly equal with Goku getting the slight edge. A power level of 130 million versus 150 million nets us our 80% figure: 130/150=.8

So was Goku at least 80% of Perfect Cell? We don't know. Cell was holding back, slightly, against Goku. However, we know that Cell was not anywhere near Gohan when Gohan was at SSJ2 which is a x2.

So, Gohan, who was less than ASSJ Goku, got a x2 bump that made him significantly stronger than Perfect Cell, even at full power.

Goku did significantly better against the same version of Cell Gohan fought. Going by the Frieza fight, that means ASSJ Goku was at least 120% stronger than Gohan's ASSJ. Why? 80% is nearly even...not quite...but nearly. But let us pretend that ASSJ Gohan is 80% of ASSJ GOku, for just a moment (even though it is obvious that it is less than 80%).

Here is what Gohan would come out to be in his SSJ2 sate, in terms of Goku's power: 80%*2=160%. That means that SSJ2 Gohan was 160% of ASSJ Goku. Gohan is still wiping the floor with Cell, even with Perfect Cell at full power. This means that Cell is not even 80% of SSJ2 Gohan: else the match would have been closer like Frieza's and Goku's.

But let us pretend that a Full Powered Cell is 80% of SSJ2 Gohan.

160%*80%=128%

So using the most liberal numbers - in your favor not mine - Perfect Cell, at full power, is still only 128% of ASSJ Goku. Again, those are extremely liberal numbers I used. More reasonable numbers would net a much smaller difference because, clearly, a full powered Perfect Cell was nowhere near 80% of SSJ2 Gohan: they were not even near to be closely matched like Frieza and Goku were.

Being realistic, I'd say a full powered Perfect Cell was closer to 105-110% of a full powered ASSJ Goku. That's falling in line with a "slightly stronger than Goku" while still being weak enough to not be close to a SSJ2 Gohan.


Do not quote each section of that section of my post: it is all one point. Treat it as such.




Originally posted by Galan007
*insert facepalm gif here*

Unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was only "a bit" stronger than full power Cell, then I will simply write your statement off as more unsubstantiated conjecture.

"Unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was only "a bit" stronger than full power Cell, then I will simply write your statement off as more unsubstantiated conjecture."

Reposting is fun!

I think you meant that a full powered "Cell was a bit stronger than Goku".

But, no, the burden of proof is on you to prove that a full powered Cell was much stronger than a fully healthy ASSJ Goku. I can only prove that it was stated that Cell was slightly stronger than Goku. I cannot do anymore or any less than that.

Originally posted by Based
If Cell were only barely stronger than Goku why did he let Gohan do all the work? He gave up because he knew Cell was superior. The intent of Akira was for Gohan to surpass his father. Cell is not only barely stronger than Goku gtfo of here with that.

Barely stronger is not the words used. Slightly was.

The point was for Goku to get to fight because he wanted to fight. Goku knew Perfect Cell was stronger than himself the entire time but he still wanted to fight. He also wanted Cell to be embarrassed and humbled at how much stronger Gohan was than Cell.

Wasn't it stated that Gohan was more powerful than Goku before he went SSJ2?

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was stated that Cell was slightly stronger. So Cell was slightly stronger despite him making it look like they were equal. These are all facts: you cannot dispute them nor will entertain any disputations of those facts. Post the scan where this was stated---or at the very least refer me to the specific page/chapter so I can look for myself. You've ignored my inquiry several times now, so I'm beginning to think this alleged statement doesn't exist.

I just skimmed through their entire battle and I never once saw anyone state that a full power Cell was only "slightly" stronger than a healthy Goku. To the contrary, I saw several scans(posted earlier) which state and/or imply that Goku never had a chance in hell at beating Cell--- even when he was holding back his full power. Heck, even if Goku were at full power and Cell were weakened, Goku would've only had a "slight" chance of winning(this was outright stated.) It really can't be spelled out any clearer to us. The difference between Cell and Goku, while not as significant as the difference between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell, was still quite vast--- certainly not "slight".

So again: either post evidence to support your opinion, or I will assume no such evidence exists and that your argument is based on false information.

Originally posted by juggerman
Wasn't it stated that Gohan was more powerful than Goku before he went SSJ2?

Yes Goku admits Gohan is stronger and Gohan after sensing his father's power is unimpressed.

Originally posted by Based
Yes Goku admits Gohan is stronger and Gohan after sensing his father's power is unimpressed.

I thought so. That would put Goku even farther behind Cell

Originally posted by Based
Yes Goku admits Gohan is stronger and Gohan after sensing his father's power is unimpressed.


When did Gohan sense Goku power and was unimpressed? He was shocked to feel his power all the way on the other side of the universe. He was more impressed than being unimpressed. Everyone there was amazed at feeling Goku power from so far away.

What are you talking about carv? Goku was right near them during the Cell Games. Me thinks you is confuzzled

Originally posted by carver9
When did Gohan sense Goku power and was unimpressed? He was shocked to feel his power all the way on the other side of the universe. He was more impressed than being unimpressed. Everyone there was amazed at feeling Goku power from so far away.


I think you're talking about Goku when he goes SSJ3 for the first time. Yes. Indeed Gohan was impressed that day. But in Cell Games, Gohan only think Goku is doing pretty good, and I don't think he was impressed that day.

During the Cell Games, Gohan compared the power/speed Goku displayed against Cell to his own. Gohan was so used to being weaker than Goku that even when he sensed he was more powerful, he still figured Goku must've been holding back--- which wasn't the case(as stated by Goku himself.)

During the Cell Games, Cell>>ASSJ Gohan>ASSJ Goku.

Do we know how far behind Cell Gohan was? They never actually fought until Gohan went SSJ2 iirc

They fought quite a bit. Cell toyed with him.

I only remember Gohan taking a beating and not fighting back. Maybe it was just the show but Gohan kept saying crap like "i don't wanna fight cuz i'll lose control" and other stupid similar crap.

This is how things went down in both the manga and anime...

Cell and Gohan fought for a while. Cell toyed with him.

Gohan commented on his inner power. Cell toyed with him a bit more, and tried pressing him to unleash said power.

Cell created the Cell Juniors and had them beat the shit out of the Z fighters

Android 16 was killed by Cell. Gohan transformed into a SSJ2.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
I think you're talking about Goku when he goes SSJ3 for the first time. Yes. Indeed Gohan was impressed that day. But in Cell Games, Gohan only think Goku is doing pretty good, and I don't think he was impressed that day.

Yeah, that's what I am talking about.

Originally posted by carver9
Yeah, that's what I am talking about. The funniest part about that scene was when Kibito freaked the phuck out that he/they could sense SSJ3 Goku's power all the way on the Kai World--- and then we later found out that Goku was holding back the bulk of his power against Fat Buu. Imagine Kibito's reaction if Goku would have fully powered up as a SSJ3. ElOhEl.

"Brb, imma go fap to that thought" - Carver9

dadudemon, remember when Vegeta lowered his fighting spirit so that Krillin could blow a hole in his chest? At which point Vegeta was just slightly below first form Frieza while Krillin was far beneath the level of Recoome.

http://i.imgur.com/eqhmn.png

Also, remember that Frieza at 100% of his final form was at 120,000,000 while holding back in his final form put him at 4,320,000.

Granted, we don't know how much Cell did hold back. But that only means that you can't use him as an example in your argument.

All this holding back crap is the reason DBZ pissed me off at times.

There are no official power levels after Trunks 5 power rating. Anyway Buu was no way 8 times more powerful than Cell.

Originally posted by Galan007
The funniest part about that scene was when Kibito freaked the phuck out that he/they could sense SSJ3 Goku's power all the way on the Kai World--- and then we later found out that Goku was holding back the bulk of his power against Fat Buu. Imagine Kibito's reaction if Goku would have fully powered up as a SSJ3. ElOhEl.


Then the world would have been destroyed or something. His power up caused the whole planet to experience a bad earthquake. Shit was falling over.


I wonder how many people Goku killed by powering up like that?


That heartless bastard.

Yeah, SSJ3 Goku also blocked an energy attack from Fat Buu that wiped out 1/10 of the earth's population. Assuming the population of DBZ-earth is roughly the same as ours, then that means Goku was partially responsible for killing around 600,000,000 people.

What a dick.

Also in the Manga I believe the said Perfect Cell was only using 40 percent of his full power against Trunks and 50 percent of his full Power against Goku.

I don't believe that was stated at all.

Don't recall any figures like that besides those from Freeza. Trunks was around Vegetas level, and he got brushed aside. Goku was on near equal footing with Cell.


Galan, scan/chapter of that Goku deflection thing?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Galan, scan/chapter of that Goku deflection thing?
Chapter 467.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Galan, scan/chapter of that Goku deflection thing? Whole scene:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132292/400304.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132293/400305.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132294/400306.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132295/400307.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132296/400308.gif.html

I suppose since Fat Buu touched the energy ball last, he was technically responsible for wiping out a huge portion of earth's populace. Regardless, Goku still made no attempts to deflect said energy away from earth. What an ass.

Originally posted by Galan007
Whole scene:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132292/400304.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132293/400305.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132294/400306.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132295/400307.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15132296/400308.gif.html

I suppose since Fat Buu touched the energy ball last, he was technically responsible for wiping out a huge portion of earth's populace. Regardless, Goku still made no attempts to deflect said energy away from earth. What an ass.

Goku could have with his teleport technique. But he didn't. I think he was counting on the Dragonballs being able to revive them.

Nah, he was just being a dick.

That's nothing compared to Piccolo telling Buu to kill every human on the planet before he could face Gotenks. lol Piccolo is responsible for even more deaths in a single instant than Gokou was.

Originally posted by Galan007
I've always referenced this guide:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14413009/All_Character_PLs.jpg.html

Can you tell me that power of ASSJ Vegeta that is there, right between Gohan and Gotenks? I got he has at least a Billion, but I can't see the number just behind the "1".

This is not a bad list, but has some inconsistences. Like Gohan being weaker then Goku at cell games (they should be equal at the very least, but the manga implied that he was slightly stronger).

Also impling that SJJ Goku didn't get any stronger in 7 years is stupid, besides it was stated that he got stronger then gohan by vegeta himself.

Also, if you point the fact that vegeta pretty much acts like he is stronger then gohan at the cell games, and yet we was still weaker then goku (that's why he turned majin in the first place, to fight at equal ground with goku), then this has no sense.

Also I think it would be much smother for power levels if SJJ2 would multiply SSJ power by 3x instead of 2x, while SSJ3 would be 3x or 4x multiplier.

Also I think we got clues about how SSJ was not a 50x multipliers anymore after the FSSJ level was achieved, later in the series. Probably more like a 10x multiplier.

By the way, the idea of goku din't get any stronger in 3 years of hard training is laughable at best. If SSJ Goku was 150 millions against freezer, he should be at least 200-300 millions 3 years later. And was such the power escalation would be smoother if FSSJ Goku would be like 4 billion (just try to keep adding power ups, like C18, C17 (both in the 400 millions at least), C16 and imperfect cell after absorving people(at least 500 million), then semiperfect cell (probably already close to 1 billion), then ASSJ Vegeta who was wiping his ass with semiperfect cell, then the fact that Vegeta was pissing his pants when FSSJ goku showed 50% of his power just after he went out ot the hyperbolic chamber etc)