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Let's say that Trunks didn't show up from the future and he just ran through his natural course of birth. Goku uses instant transmission to appear before Frieza, King Cold and henchmen how would it turn out. As we know, Goku had a fight with Trunks to test his abilities as a Super Saiyan and he blocked all of Trunks attacks with the sword he used to defeat Frieza and henchmen(Blasted King Cold). How would the fight turn out if it was Goku fighting in Trunks place?

He did fight in Trunks place in the original timeline. He easily defeated Frieza and probably King Cold as well.

Goku would defeat Frieza (and co.) just as easily as Trunks did.

Now had King Cold transformed......

KC may not have even been able to transform beyond the form we saw him in. Frieza could have very well been unique in that regard. Who knows?

I knows! King Cold would have been Majin Buu level upon reaching his next stage. SSJ Vegito on the 4th form. And SSJ4 Gogeta when he went to the "Super Shredder" form Cooler was sporting.

Yup all canon

Originally posted by Galan007
KC may not have even been able to transform beyond the form we saw him in. Frieza could have very well been unique in that regard. Who knows?

It's more than likely that King Cold could transform as well.

Because Cooler was already in his 4th Form when Goku fought him, and he amped up to a 5th.

Considering frieza's forth form is his true form i think kc being unable to transform is highly unlikely

Originally posted by Galan007
KC may not have even been able to transform beyond the form we saw him in. Frieza could have very well been unique in that regard. Who knows? Freeza's fourth form is said to be his true form, his other forms were created to suppress his power.

So, really, KC not transforming was just silly.

also wish Trunks and King Cold had a sword fight...and explain planet Frieza's history

Goku after training with the Yardrat is stronger than Trunks. Same result.

Did Goku actually train with the Yardrat, or did they just teach him Instant Transmission?

You idiots need to stop with the non-canon play. uhuh King Cold never transformed and was never confirmed by Toriyama as being able to transform. Don't give him power he does not have. Stick to the canon sources: he doesn't transform and is far weaker than Frieza much less Mecha Frieza.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You idiots need to stop with the non-canon play. uhuh King Cold never transformed and was never confirmed by Toriyama as being able to transform. Don't give him power he does not have. Stick to the canon sources: he doesn't transform and is far weaker than Frieza much less Mecha Frieza.

Did the Z boys say Cold was stronger than Frieza?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Freeza's fourth form is said to be his true form, his other forms were created to suppress his power.

So, really, KC not transforming was just silly. Frieza =/= King Cold. They are 2 completely different characters, you see. Just because they are of the same race, doesn't mean every facet of their respective powers must be equal by default (case in point: Goku and Vegeta.)

So really, adding transformations to KC that he was never shown or stated to be capable of using, is just silly. If he could have transformed into a more powerful form, the rule of deduction says he surely would have.

Originally posted by juggerman
Did the Z boys say Cold was stronger than Frieza?

Nope.

Originally posted by juggerman
Did the Z boys say Cold was stronger than Frieza? They did in the manga. Even though Frieza stated that he had become more powerful with all his mecha enhancements, the Z fighters sensed that King Cold was still more powerful:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14806312/280412.gif.html

Regardless, it was stated that SSJ Trunks had the exact same power that Goku had on Namek:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14806475/280612.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14806351/280613.gif.html
And he was still able to kill mecha Frieza and King Cold effortlessly. So even if we assume that Goku's power hadn't increased at all during the year he was training in space, he'd still crush Frieza and his daddy just as easily as Trunks did(like I said.)

So some people are saying because King Cold didn't transform, he couldn't? He was obviously a sneak and as he knew he was stronger than his son, more than likely assumed he didn't need to transform to beat Trunks as long as he took his sword.

But there are 3 of the Planet Killer race. King Cold, Cooler, and Frieza. Frieza has 4 1/2 forms if you count Final Form 100%, Cooler has 5. Are people really assuming King Cold just can't transform at all, even though he looks nearly identical to Frieza Form 2 and both his sons have the capability?

What was Akira thinking when he made someone with the status of Frieza's father such a throwaway character? Should've at least had his own saga or something before moving on to the Android arc.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
What was Akira thinking when he made someone with the status of Frieza's father such a throwaway character? Should've at least had his own saga or something before moving on to the Android arc. I wish the Planet Trade Organization as a whole would have been expanded on more.

Originally posted by KingD19
So some people are saying because King Cold didn't transform, he couldn't? He was obviously a sneak and as he knew he was stronger than his son, more than likely assumed he didn't need to transform to beat Trunks as long as he took his sword.

But there are 3 of the Planet Killer race. King Cold, Cooler, and Frieza. Frieza has 4 1/2 forms if you count Final Form 100%, Cooler has 5. Are people really assuming King Cold just can't transform at all, even though he looks nearly identical to Frieza Form 2 and both his sons have the capability? Cooler isn't a canon manga character. Aside from that, assuming King Cold was capable of transforming into the same forms as Frieza, when such was never stated or shown in any canon source(not even the Daizenshuu), is purely baseless/speculatory. Like dadudemon said: stick to the canon sources.

But heck, I'm bored, so lets have some theoretical fun.

Mecha Frieza stated that he was more powerful than before--- and before said enhancements, his PL was 120,000,000. It was also stated that King Cold was more powerful than mecha Frieza. However, both of them were vastly inferior to SSJ Trunks, whose PL was stated to be the same as Goku's was on Namek, which puts him at 150,000,000. Thus, we know Cold's PL was above 120,000,000 but below 150,000,000. Lets say his PL was 140,000,000.

Now, Frieza's final form possessed about 120x more power than his first form. So if we use the same multiplier for King Cold, then that gives his theoretical final form a PL of 16,800,000,000! PLs that high wouldn't have been seen again until late in the Buu saga. Do you really think Cold was intended to be more powerful than the Androids? ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks? Perfect Cell? FPSSJ Goku/Gohan? SSJ2 Gohan? Super Perfect Cell (etc.)? I don't.

If the guy could have transformed into a more powerful form, he would have. But since he didn't, and no canon source states he could have, then we can only be left to assume that he, just like Frieza, was in his peak transformed state.

Originally posted by Galan007
I wish the Planet Trade Organization as a whole would have been expanded on more.
Oh, that too. KC was the one supposedly behind it after all.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cooler isn't a canon manga character.
Despite this, there are at least official-stated power levels for the movie characters. Super Shredder Cooler's is 470,000,000, which puts him well above Frieza's 120,000,000. vin

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111126224916/dragonball/images/2/24/V2.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Frieza =/= King Cold. They are 2 completely different characters, you see. Just because they are of the same race, doesn't mean every facet of their respective powers must be equal by default (case in point: Goku and Vegeta.)

So really, adding transformations to KC that he was never shown or stated to be capable of using, is just silly. If he could have transformed into a more powerful form, the rule of deduction says he surely would have. Hurrr.

King Cold resembles nothing less than Freeza's second form.

But here is the thing. Freeza's original form, and presumably the form his species takes on, is that of his fourth form.

Why wouldn't his father have the same appearance?

It's a plothole, a minor one, but it is there.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Oh, that too. KC was the one supposedly behind it after all.


Despite this, there are at least official-stated power levels for the movie characters. Super Shredder Cooler's is 470,000,000, which puts him well above Frieza's 120,000,000. vin

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111126224916/dragonball/images/2/24/V2.jpg Knowing Cooler's PL, doesn't make him more canon than any other non-canon movie villain.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hurrr.

King Cold resembles nothing less than Freeza's second form.

But here is the thing. Freeza's original form, and presumably the form his species takes on, is that of his fourth form.

Why wouldn't his father have the same appearance?

It's a plothole, a minor one, but it is there. You may see it as a plot-hole, but I merely see it as King Cold not being able to transform into a more powerful form. Even the Daizenshuu, which gave a brief history of Cold, didn't so much as allude to him being capable of additional transformations. No canon material does.

Like I mentioned above: if we assume KC was capable of the same transformations as Frieza, and if we assume the power increase he received was proportionate to the increase Frieza received, then that puts his PL at nearly 17 BILLION in his 'final form'. That means he would have been several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan or Super Perfect Cell. Was he intended to be that powerful? No phucking way.

And heck, since Cooler keeps popping up for some reason: what if Cold was capable of transforming into the same 'super shredder' form as Cooler? Since that form was roughly 4x more powerful than Frieza's final form, if the same multiplier crossed over to Cold, then that'd give his 'super shredder' form a theoretical PL of 67,200,000,000--- which would make him more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu, etc.


Speculations aside, I'd rather stick to what's canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Knowing Cooler's PL, doesn't make him more canon than any other non-canon movie villain.
Never said it did, though people sometimes treat Broly as though he's canon.

Ya, I do wish broly were canon, though. Hell, I wish the movies were canon in general.

what if Trunks didn't have his sword during his fight with Mecha Frieza and King Cold? i heard the sword Trunks wields is magical...

He'd have killed them just as easily. He just wouldn't have cut Frieza in half.

And he got the sword from Tapion.

Originally posted by Galan007
You may see it as a plot-hole, but I merely see it as King Cold not being able to transform into a more powerful form. Even the Daizenshuu, which gave a brief history of Cold, didn't so much as allude to him being capable of additional transformations. No canon material does.

Like I mentioned above: if we assume KC was capable of the same transformations as Frieza, and if we assume the power increase he received was proportionate to the increase Frieza received, then that puts his PL at nearly 17 BILLION in his 'final form'. That means he would have been several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan or Super Perfect Cell. Was he intended to be that powerful? No phucking way.

And heck, since Cooler keeps popping up for some reason: what if Cold was capable of transforming into the same 'super shredder' form as Cooler? Since that form was roughly 4x more powerful than Frieza's final form, if the same multiplier crossed over to Cold, then that'd give his 'super shredder' form a theoretical PL of 67,200,000,000--- which would make him more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu, etc.

Speculations aside, I'd rather stick to what's canon.

Okay, you're not paying attention.

Freeza's fourth form wasn't something he created for himself. It is the form he was born with. It is his natural, his true form, not one created to make him more powerful. He created the lesser forms to restrain his power.

Why would King Cold then not be born with the same form as Freeza? They are the same species.

I'm not saying King Cold canonically has a fourth form like Freeza. He obviously doesn't, and he was not intended to be that powerful (And you're still using numbers for power levels you can't verify but hey). I'm saying the fact that he doesn't have one is a plothole.

Originally posted by Villelater
what if Trunks didn't have his sword during his fight with Mecha Frieza and King Cold? i heard the sword Trunks wields is magical... Magical or not, the sword still shattered upon striking #18, so its limits are well-defined. Regardless, Trunks certainly didn't 'need' the sword to kill either of them--- a fact he demonstrated when he let King Cold have the sword.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Okay, you're not paying attention.

Freeza's fourth form wasn't something he created for himself. It is the form he was born with. It is his natural, his true form, not one created to make him more powerful. He created the lesser forms to restrain his power.

Why would King Cold then not be born with the same form as Freeza? They are the same species.

I'm not saying King Cold canonically has a fourth form like Freeza. He obviously doesn't, and he was not intended to be that powerful (And you're still using numbers for power levels you can't verify but hey). I'm saying the fact that he doesn't have one is a plothole. I get what you're saying, but I don't know if you're understanding me.

We know for a fact that KC's PL was above 120,000,000, but below 150,000,000--- so giving him an estimated PL of 140,000,000(like I did) is perfectly fair, and moreover, logical. Having said that, if we assume that King Cold would have received the same power amp/multiplier as Frieza upon transforming(which, again, is perfectly logical), then that would give Cold's 'final form' a PL of nearly 17 billion--- ie. he'd be several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan and/or Super Perfect Cell. Clearly Cold wasn't intended to be anywhere near the level of a rookie SSJ, let alone a SSJ2, let alone much more powerful than a SSJ2.

So if you want to call it a plot-hole, I suppose that's fitting. Either way, the form we saw Cold in was clearly intended to be his 'peak' transformed state.

Originally posted by Galan007
I get what you're saying, but I don't know if you're understanding me.

We know for a fact that KC's PL was above 120,000,000, but below 150,000,000--- so giving him an estimated PL of 140,000,000(like I did) is perfectly fair, and moreover, logical. Having said that, if we assume that King Cold would have received the same power amp/multiplier as Frieza upon transforming(which, again, is perfectly logical), then that would give Cold's 'final form' a PL of nearly 17 billion--- ie. he'd be several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan and/or Super Perfect Cell. Clearly Cold wasn't intended to be anywhere near the level of a rookie SSJ, let alone a SSJ2, let alone much more powerful than a SSJ2.

So if you want to call it a plot-hole, I suppose that's fitting. Either way, the form we saw Cold in was clearly intended to be his 'peak' transformed state.

It could be that KC couldn't control that power from the start, tus is forced to exist in a reduced form state. After all, Frieza's 2nd form was stated to be at 1 million right, that is less than 1% of his total max output. If we take that the form we see KC in is about 0.8% of his total max power level... yeah. I doubt KC trains or fights anywhere near as much as Freeza (Nor Cooler for that matter if you want to compare that), and Freeza hardly trains anyways, he is more than satisfied with blowing away underlings with power levels no stronger than Raditz.

^ The Z fighters sensed that KC was actually more powerful than mecha Frieza--- hence the ridiculously high power approximations I listed above. Tbh, I just don't think there was any intention for KC to be able to access more powerful transformations. No canon source alludes to such, at least. /shrug

Freeza was born with it.

Logic dictates KC would likely be born with it.

The other forms were created by Freeza to suppress his power. Toriyama did not intend KC to be more powerful than he was portrayed, but logically, he would be due to the apparent nature of the race.

It is a plothole, lol.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Freeza was born with it.

Logic dictates KC would likely be born with it. Only if we assume every member of their race is able to attain the same forms--- which, per canon, evidently isn't the case. Perhaps Frieza's 4th form is his 'true form', while Cold's 2nd form is his 'true form'..?

Either way, we both agree that Cold was in his peak form, and was using his peak power, when Trunks killed him.

Maybe Freeza's true form has something to do with his mother's side, and not his father.

Frieza had to have gotten something from his mother, because his color scheme was nothing like Cold's.

Chilled only has one form, Kuriza only has 2, Cooler had 5, Freeza 4. It does range in that family. lol

Hm, true. If you use ALL sources then there really is no consistency whatsoever.

Originally posted by Galan007
Only if we assume every member of their race is able to attain the same forms--- which, per canon, evidently isn't the case. Perhaps Frieza's 4th form is his 'true form', while Cold's 2nd form is his 'true form'..?

Either way, we both agree that Cold was in his peak form, and was using his peak power, when Trunks killed him.

Hows about I suggest that although all the Icehjins/Frost Demons/whatever the hell Freeza's race is, are born into their 4th form, and all the forms lesser than this are restricted power forms simply due to them being far too destructive upon maturing? With the exeption of Cooler, they all seemed to have trouble with actual control over their emotions, nevermind their powers...

Id KC had such a high personal power, I can garuntee you he'd have even less control of himself tha Broly ever did, and if what Goku said to Freeza holds any weight, the race as a whole can only seem to handle so much of their own power.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hows about I suggest that although all the Icehjins/Frost Demons/whatever the hell Freeza's race is, are born into their 4th form, and all the forms lesser than this are restricted power forms simply due to them being far too destructive upon maturing? With the exeption of Cooler, they all seemed to have trouble with actual control over their emotions, nevermind their powers...

Id KC had such a high personal power, I can garuntee you he'd have even less control of himself tha Broly ever did, and if what Goku said to Freeza holds any weight, the race as a whole can only seem to handle so much of their own power.

That's pretty much what i thought

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hows about I suggest that although all the Icehjins/Frost Demons/whatever the hell Freeza's race is, are born into their 4th form, and all the forms lesser than this are restricted power forms simply due to them being far too destructive upon maturing? With the exeption of Cooler, they all seemed to have trouble with actual control over their emotions, nevermind their powers...

Id KC had such a high personal power, I can garuntee you he'd have even less control of himself tha Broly ever did, and if what Goku said to Freeza holds any weight, the race as a whole can only seem to handle so much of their own power. I never got the impression that Frieza had less control over his emotions as his power increased, nor did I get the feeling that Cold was emotionally unbalanced either-- quite the opposite, in fact. You have any examples of this off hand? And Goku merely questioned whether or not Frieza's body was capable of withstanding the physical strain of reaching 100% power, nothing more.

My opinion: just because Frieza's 4th form was his true form, doesn't mean Cold was ever capable of reaching the same form. Like I keep saying: Cold was clearly not intended by Toriyama to have more powerful transformations that he could tap at will. If he were capable of amassing greater power than what he displayed, some type of canon source would have alluded to such(but none do.) And like Kento mentioned: even if we veer away from canonicity entirely, and reference all sources pertaining to Frieza's lineage, there is NO consistency in transformations whatsoever. Literally every member of that race can attain a different/peak form.

Originally posted by Galan007
I never got the impression that Frieza had less control over his emotions as his power increased, nor did I get the feeling that Cold was emotionally unbalanced either-- quite the opposite, in fact. You have any examples of this off hand? And Goku merely questioned whether or not Frieza's body was capable of withstanding the physical strain of reaching 100% power, nothing more.

He certainly got angrier as he amped up. And as for Cold, well, him blowing his men out into space by destroying a huge chunk of his ship was pretty nuts... And the physical strain Goku mentions is another thing, 0.8% of KC's total potential power is being shown, right, and Goku thought that Frieza might lose control at 120,000,000... imagine for a moment of KC did go all out AND lost control.

Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion: just because Frieza's 4th form was his true form, doesn't mean Cold was ever capable of reaching the same form. Like I keep saying: Cold was clearly not intended by Toriyama to have more powerful transformations that he could tap at will. If he were capable of amassing greater power than what he displayed, some type of canon source would have alluded to such(but none do.) And like Kento mentioned: even if we veer away from canonicity entirely, and reference all sources pertaining to Frieza's lineage, there is NO consistency in transformations whatsoever. Literally every member of that race can attain a different/peak form.

What I'm getting at, is that the 4th form transformation may very well be the standard for the entire race. The only reason KC doesn't, or cannot transform is because he well knows he may destroy himself. Along with various other possabilities, such as being stuck in that reduced form so long, he may no longer be able to transform anymore, or another theory is that Trunks took him down so quickly he never got the chance to go higher. Makes sense to me seeing as how Trunks loathes letting his opponents increase their threat such as his reaction to the Androids waking 16, or Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect state.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He certainly got angrier as he amped up. Frieza got angrier because a 'filthy Saiyan' was more powerful than himself, no matter how much he powered up.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And as for Cold, well, him blowing his men out into space by destroying a huge chunk of his ship was pretty nuts... That never happened in the manga.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And the physical strain Goku mentions is another thing, 0.8% of KC's total potential power is being shown, right, and Goku thought that Frieza might lose control at 120,000,000... imagine for a moment of KC did go all out AND lost control. I don't think Goku said anything about Frieza potentially losing control after reaching 100% power--- he merely commented on the physical strain. As we saw: Frieza's stamina took a shit when he powered up. That's why he didn't power up to 100% right out of the gate.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
What I'm getting at, is that the 4th form transformation may very well be the standard for the entire race. The only reason KC doesn't, or cannot transform is because he well knows he may destroy himself. Along with various other possabilities, such as being stuck in that reduced form so long, he may no longer be able to transform anymore, or another theory is that Trunks took him down so quickly he never got the chance to go higher. Makes sense to me seeing as how Trunks loathes letting his opponents increase their threat such as his reaction to the Androids waking 16, or Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect state. Interesting theory, but given that no canon evidence supports it, I can't accept it.

You see, if Cold were capable of transforming into the same forms as Frieza, then that puts the PL of his 4th form at roughly 17,000,000,000-- well beyond the level of a SSJ2, and approaching the level of a SSJ3. Clearly he and Frieza were intended to be vastly weaker than a rookie SSJ, so the opinion that Cold could have tapped power close to that of a SSJ3 is a bit much for me to accept. Even from a theoretical standpoint. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Frieza got angrier because a 'filthy Saiyan' was more powerful than himself, no matter how much he powered up.

He was also pissed when Krillin cutt off his tail, and when Gohan masenko'ed him into the ground. :P

Originally posted by Galan007
That never happened in the manga.

You never asked for manga only refferences

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think Goku said anything about Frieza potentially losing control after reaching 100% power--- he merely commented on the physical strain. As we saw: Frieza's stamina took a shit when he powered up. That's why he didn't power up to 100% right out of the gate.

Well, Freeza's stamina is probably better than anyone else in the 'verse... Think about it, he was fighting longer than any other villain in the series, and perhaps anyone overall... If we took how many issues in the manga, or how many episodes from the anime the entire Freeza fight took from when he initially started fighting Vegeta at the sight where Porunga was first summoned, to the point where he got either cut in half or the final blast by SSJ Goku... Your looking at mid double digits... That fight took FOREVER to finally finish....

Originally posted by Galan007
Interesting theory, but given that no canon evidence supports it, I can't accept it.

You see, if Cold were capable of transforming into the same forms as Frieza, then that puts the PL of his 4th form at roughly 17,000,000,000-- well beyond the level of a SSJ2, and approaching the level of a SSJ3. Clearly he and Frieza were intended to be vastly weaker than a rookie SSJ, so the opinion that Cold could have tapped power close to that of a SSJ3 is a bit much for me to accept. Even from a theoretical standpoint. /shrug

The thing of it is, we clearly know he never actually transformed because he got punked very quickly and never got the chance. This will forever lay doubt on what he may have been like in any other from other than 2nd. That said, he may have actually had more control than Freeza did, considering he was able to surpass his son's absolute max, plus mech buff, while in 2nd gear.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He was also pissed when Krillin cutt off his tail, and when Gohan masenko'ed him into the ground. :PI'm pretty sure he would have been pissed off at those 2 events in any form.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well, Freeza's stamina is probably better than anyone else in the 'verse... Think about it, he was fighting longer than any other villain in the series, and perhaps anyone overall... If we took how many issues in the manga, or how many episodes from the anime the entire Freeza fight took from when he initially started fighting Vegeta at the sight where Porunga was first summoned, to the point where he got either cut in half or the final blast by SSJ Goku... Your looking at mid double digits... That fight took FOREVER to finally finish.... I was talking about Frieza's stamina after reaching 100%. It was absolute shit. He started to fizzle out very quickly--- his body simply couldn't handle the strain of that much energy for an extended period of time(Goku even commented on such.)

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The thing of it is, we clearly know he never actually transformed because he got punked very quickly and never got the chance. This will forever lay doubt on what he may have been like in any other from other than 2nd. That said, he may have actually had more control than Freeza did, considering he was able to surpass his son's absolute max, plus mech buff, while in 2nd gear. Well, you're still assuming KC was capable of transforming into more powerful forms, when no canon evidence from the manga, anime, or daizenshuu alludes to such. You're welcome to your own opinion, but it is just that: opinion. Because it cannot be supported with canon proof, I personally can't except it as fact.

I do like having theoretical fun with DBZ characters, though... So this has been fun in that respect.